March 24, 2021 • 32 mins
This Chinese-American comfort food was inspired by Hunan, originated in Taipei, and developed in New York City. Anney and Lauren dig into the history and culture(s) behind General Tso’s chicken.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello, and welcome to Faber production of I Heart Radio.
I'm any Recent and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we're
talking about General So's Chicken. Yes we are. Someone's going
to be another fun adventure with pronunciation of her purpost. So.
I really don't I don't have much experience with this one.
I know, I feel like we've been on a really
(00:29):
strong kick of these. I know. I think this is
like the fourth or fifth one. Um, my family used
to have a tradition again. I grew up in a
very small town of ordering Chinese food on a couple
of Fridays a month from when I was growing up,
and we did it for so long. The woman who
ran that restaurant would just say forty seven dollars and
(00:51):
sixty three cents before we even placed order because she
knew we didn't deviate. Okay, it was exactly yeah, and
that was it. And that's amazing. Um. I think this
happened like semi recently. I'm not sure she still runs it,
but like a couple of years ago, I think she
still was like this is the amount. Me and my
(01:13):
two brothers had our things, and my little brother loved
the sesame chicken and it it came with like a
dipping sauce that I think was the sweet and sour sauce. Um.
And my older brother also got something like that, But
I was all about the Mongolian beef and the egg
rolls and fried rice. Okay, okay, that was what it was. Sure, Yes,
(01:39):
I think I did try it General So's once at
a mall food court, but I thought it was too
sweet or something I just did in general, just didn't
do the fried chicken things with Chinese food. Sure, yeah.
Grow Growing up, my experience with American Chinese takeout culture
was yeah, well, my um my, my dad and I
(02:02):
would do like the Jewish American Christmas tradition of having
Chinese on Christmas Day for lunch. He would usually make
something nice for dinner, but but yeah, yeah, for for
lunch we would have Chinese and um gosh. His his
favorite was eggfu Young and I can't remember. I genuinely
cannot remember what I used to order when I was
a kid. I think it was probably like sesame or
(02:23):
orange chicken, which is basically a variation on General So's.
So yeah. These days, it's part of the regular circulation
of my households like late night order. Um, you know,
like like we're like, these are not sober humans who
or ordering this food at this juncture. But you know,
like it's it's like, yes, please put some corn syrup
(02:47):
on my fried chicken. That would be delightful. I would
like you to deliver that to my face. That would
be amazing. Yes, I have to say, I mean, in general,
this episode has left me with a kind of a
mayorganized Chinese food take out craving. Oh yes, oh oh
y'all the cravings in this one. I'm so sorry. I'm
(03:07):
so sorry. It's it's it's intense, and like I said,
I don't have much experience, which I will say, I
want it. I want it. It's very very tempting. And
I have to say, reading the story, which I imagine
some of you are familiar with, we're gonna get into, um,
it did remind me very much of my time in
(03:28):
China when I first arrived. You know, Chinese food. It's
a huge country, yeah, with many cultures and quisine and traditions. Yeah. Yeah,
it is absolutely not a monolith. Uh. And I was
lucky enough that I did get to travel and stay
and pretty wide. I mean That's another thing about China
is it's like physically huge, so it takes her ever
(03:49):
to get to places that on a map don't look
that far, yea. And I learned really really quickly just
how different food was from place to place, but also
extremely different from Chinese food in the United States. Um,
which made sense, It makes sense to me, but was
also really eye opening. And in my experience, I could
(04:11):
be totally wrong because I obviously did not go everywhere
in China. Most of the closest things I got to
americanized Chinese food were in Hong Kong. Oh sure, yeah,
still different but yeah, oh gosh delicious food though, yeah
this is this is also right yeah, so so many
different engravings like I'm just I just want everything. I
want everything, like I missed my Sashwan places in Atlanta. Yes, yes,
(04:39):
but all right, let us get to our question. Yes,
general sos chicken what is it? Oh? That is a
great question, um, but well, general so, sometimes called a
pronounced general sous chicken, is a dish composed of bite
sized pieces of marinated chicken usual dark meat, deep fried
(05:01):
and coated in this sweet, tangy, spicy sauce, often served
with steamed white rice and a vegetable, perhaps steamed broccoli.
The sauce can vary a bit, but the base ingredients
are in order of like of like content by by
volume or weight. I guess sugar always sugar soy sauce
or perhaps the richer dark soy sauce, chicken stocking, rice wine,
(05:24):
which is a kind of dry rice wine, rice vinegar,
sesame oil, some minced ginger, minced garlic, maybe some scallions,
dried chilies, and a little bit of corn starch as
a thickener. Um. As an alternative, you can add some
orange juice and zest to make orange chicken, or top
it with sesame seeds, which is basically just what sesame
(05:45):
chicken is, and the result is just so brilliantly basic.
Like it's just this absolute master class in comfort food contrast.
Like it's fatty and crispy and tender, um sweet and
sour and spicy and savory. We've talked about in our
snack food episodes, how these types of contrasts make your
(06:06):
brain go oh weird, more of that, more pleased. I
want to keep eating this forever. Um. It's such a
comfort food um known by many other vaguely related names um,
in addition to every possible angelic sized spelling of So,
you've got General Gal's chicken or General MOUs chicken, General
(06:27):
Joe's chicken. Apparently in the U. S. Navy they call
it Admiral So's chicken, which is just such a tiny slight.
I love it. I love it. You can make it
at home if you so choose. The incomparable JAKENJ. Lopezult
of Serious Eats has just a journey of a recipe
(06:48):
for it up um, and I highly recommend checking that
out if you would like to make it for yourself. Yes,
I'm very scared by the whole venture, to be honest.
Oh yeah, same, And I think journey of a recipe
is a great That's what I often go through in
my kitchen, ups and downs, emotional eyes and lows, you know.
(07:12):
But yes, what about the nutrition? Oh my goodness, y'all
eat a dang vegetable broccoli apparently? Oh yeah, yeah, I
love Whenever you get it would take out there's usually
like four pieces of broccoli. Yeah, and that's it. That's
what you get. Oh gosh, I mean okay, okay, like
(07:33):
it will it will fill you up and help keep
you going. It is high in fat and saturated fat
and sugar and salt. It does have a good punch
of protein. Um, some vitamins and minerals in there. I
watch your serving sizes. It's it's sugary fried chicken. Yeah,
fried chicken, and we added some sugar. We were like,
(07:55):
you know, you know this needs you know what type
of empty cal this doesn't have right now? Yes, um,
but we do have some numbers for you. We do
so these days they are about fifty thousand Chinese restaurants
in the United States, and that is more than KFC's, Wendy's,
(08:17):
Burger King, and McDonald's combined. That's a very popular stat's throne.
Wh're talking about this In Panda Express sold eighty million
pounds of orange chicken, which has is related more on
that later. Also a lot. That is their top selling
at that year, and I assume most years that's their
(08:37):
top selling item. In food delivery website grub Hub reported
that General So's ranked as the most popular Chinese food
item and the fourth most popular dish overall that year. Yeah,
it is particularly popular in the Eastern United States, not
(08:58):
so popular in who Nonchin you know where it's sort
of kind of originated a little bit um where it
was inspired by Yes, oh, this sounds like one of
those really funny movie titles where it's like inspired by
this thing that was influenced by this day. It was
(09:19):
like eight things. Yeah, it's one of those truth poland
and then like a word, right, wait what is this about? Oh? Yeah,
and we are going to get into that history. Yes,
but first we're in a post for a quick break
for word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsored,
(09:49):
Thank you. So. General so chicken has been the subject
of much food sleuthing. Yes, due to this popularity and
due to the fact that it does not exist as
such outside of the United States. And yeah, shout out
to the excellent documentary The Search for General so Um,
(10:10):
which came out in Yes. Okay, it's widely accepted that
this dish was created by Chinese chef Pong Chong Qui.
Born in Hunan in nineteen nineteen, Pong got into cooking
at a young age, serving as an apprentice for famous
Punanese chef Sao jing Chen as a teenager. He went
(10:32):
on to become a chef for the Chinese National government,
where he oversaw the national government's banquets until that regime
fell to Mao Zedong's Communist Party in nineteen forty nine,
and Pong fled alongside leaders of that political party to Taiwan.
There he continued crafting these feasts and banquets for government officials.
(10:53):
He opened a popular restaurant where he served class of
Hunan regional cuisine. As the story goes, he created General
Zos in or sometime in the fifties. He would later
recall um for a banquet for Chairman of the Joint
Chiefs of Staff. In some versions of the story, he
specifically tried to satisfy the palate of American Admiral Arthur W. Radford.
(11:18):
And this original version of the dish was not battered
and fried, and it wasn't very sweet um. From what
I understand, most Conan cuisine wouldn't involve very much sugar. Um.
But but yeah, I think that the chicken in this
original dish was skin on and was cooked until that
crisped before being coated in this tangy, spicy sauce. H
(11:42):
and Pong named it after a famous Hunan war hero,
jul Zongtang or Tong Um I tried. I'm sorry if
I ventured it. I tried who allegedly enjoyed eating this dish?
Which is pretty much impossible for yes, it's he would
(12:02):
not have no, but it just cracked me up. People
were like, ye, like, but wait, aren't we saying it
wasn't really a thing? All right? Um? Yes, there are
no known written records of a dish by this name
prior to this um in cookbooks out of Hunan or
anything like that. I mean, I'm sure people were like, well,
(12:24):
we might have liked eating chicken, and I feel like
this is a different that's different. Yeah, yeah, absolutely yes.
But quick history aside. Joel was born in Hunan in
eighteen twelve. He was a very successful military leader UM
in China, and is particularly known for reclaiming a strategic
and prized region from a group of weaker Muslims. According
(12:46):
to Jennifer eight Lee, who has done extensive research on
Chinese food in America, he quote played an important role
in the Typing Rebellion, which was a civil war started
by a Chinese guy who thought he was the son
of God and the baby brother of Jesus Christ. Really
was so great we had to include it. I know,
I know, but this is history's most violent civil war,
(13:10):
was somewhere between twenty two one million casualties. Yeah. Um,
and this guy was on the crush, the uprising peasants
side of the rebellion. And interestingly, um, because this dish
wound up being named after him, part of the belief
system that, from what I understand again, he and his
(13:31):
peers were operating on, was this desire to maintain traditional
Chinese culture and to keep Western influence at a distance. Oh.
I feel like he would not have liked this dish. No,
it reminds me of the whole Graham crackers totally. Uh. Yeah,
this original dish, as you said, Lauren, was quite different
(13:53):
from what you probably get at Chinese restaurants in America.
Pong said of his this first creation, General So's Chicken
did not pre exist in Hunanese cuisine. But originally the
flavors of the dish were typical Hunanese heavy sour, hot,
and salty, and no broccoli. Nope, it wasn't and isn't
(14:14):
grown in China. That was an American edition. But okay,
how and when did this dish get americanized? All right?
So in nine six five America changed his laws around
Chinese immigration. It had previously been barred because of the
Chinese Exclusion Act of eighteen eighty two. And yeah, okay,
(14:36):
so what had happened there was that during the gold
Rush of the eighteen forties and fifties there was this
influx of workers from China into California, and then later
after the Civil War that the American Civil War and
the economic depression that followed in many places, there was
this really xenophobic pushback against Chinese immigrants in America, like
(15:00):
there were massacres, like multiple I. I I really cannot overstate
how racist and how pervasive the anti Chinese messaging was,
especially in the West. Um And there were then a
number of laws passed in California and then nationally that
restricted first immigration of Chinese women to prevent families from
settling here, and and then Chinese people in general, with
(15:22):
a very few class related exceptions. In the early nineteen hundreds,
one of those exemptions was for restaurant owners, which is
part of what began the widespread creation of Chinese American
restaurants throughout the United States. Um UH that in the
creation of other small businesses like laundry services, were some
of the only options the Chinese people had here. UM.
(15:44):
They were literally excluded from many other forms of labor,
both legally and extra legally. And through UM inter community
support structures UM for for example, these community associations that
sprung up to help people like just figure out how
to exist here and and which remind me a lot
of the mutual aid societies that were solidifying in New
(16:05):
Orleans around the same time. Through UM. Through this community support,
this diaspora of immigrants spread out eastward across the United States,
sometimes in big cities, forming a like local Chinatown type population,
but often in the interest of not competing with other
members of the community, a family would settle in a
(16:26):
small town, you know, being the only Chinese family there,
and often would open a restaurant. And this is where
we get the first Chinese American dishes like chop suey,
things that like, really, we're not Chinese dishes, UM, but
might have been using some exotic Chinese ingredients UM in
ways that seemed both exciting and safe to white Americans. UM.
(16:51):
It was very smart and savvy, very effective as a
form of soft politics UM and very grassroots, just really
really amazing efforts by people who were making the best
of an incredibly bad situation. Mm hm. Those laws began
to change when China became an ally of the United
(17:11):
States during World War Two, but then got more stringent
as a result of the communism scare in the nineteen
fifties UM, and then finally during the Civil Rights Movement,
these and other racially discriminatory laws that were preventing immigration
based on national origins, based on any national origin that
basically wasn't like northwestern Europe. All of those laws were
(17:33):
struck town in like nineteen sixty five, with some effects
permeating out from there. But yes, so back to the
mid nineteen sixties, right, So, more and more Chinese and
Taiwanese chefs began arriving and opening restaurants in the United States. UM,
and chefs would place ads bragging that they were the
first to serve dish X y Z United States, kind
(17:56):
of really competing with each other and upping the anti
yeah yeah. Palm opened his first restaurant in New York
in nineteen seventies three. At the time, Hunanese food was
relatively unknown in the United States, but soon Pong's restaurant
gained a clientele from the nearby United Nations headquarters, and
in particular the then Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. According
(18:21):
to Palm, Kissinger visited as every time he was in
New York, and we became great friends. It was he
who brought Hunanese food to public notice. In nineteen seventy seven,
a food reviewer for The New York Times called the
dish at Pong's restaurant Generals quote a stir fried masterpiece,
sizzling hot broth and flavor and temperature, flavor and um.
(18:46):
Kissinger himself may have been turned onto this dish after
President Nixon had it when visiting China in nineteen seventy two.
And yeah, I don't have like a whole lot of
nice things to say about Nixon, but that visit does
seem to have done a want to improve Um White
Americans attitudes towards their Chinese American neighbors. At the time, right,
(19:07):
Um and purveyors of Chinese food in America did adapt
their dishes to the palettes of Americans, often adding sweetness
and or deep drying protein. Um Pong did the same
with Generals chicken, crisping it up and sweetening it. Um.
He returned to Taiwan and the late eighties quite wealthy.
(19:29):
His influence was seen on Chinese menus and dishes across
the United States, helped along by chefs who worked with
or near him. And I have to say, um reading
interviews with him, because people have gone and asked him
like tell us a story, and over time, I think
he was sort of confused and amused by it at first,
(19:50):
and then he was kind of like, well, what have
you done to this dish? So I know there's in
some articles I read he said he did adapted to
like American taste, especially with the sugar, and then others
he was kind of like unclear about how much he
did that, so I assume he did. But anyway, grain
(20:15):
of salt with that, yeah, Lee. The researcher you mentioned
earlier posits that the first recipe for this American version
of General Sos was actually called General Ching's Chicken, which
was a fried, sweet and sour dish. It originated in
New York after it was created by chef T. T. Wong.
Potentially he picked it up from Pong after a culinary
(20:37):
trip to Taiwan and then possibly modified it American taste.
General Ching was a mentor of General Jewels. Anyway, sometime
in the nineteen eighties, the name General So's combined with
General Ching's the recipe and there you go or possibly
(20:58):
see happening. Yeah yeah, and uh that that that story
about Um Wang having visited Uh Pong's restaurant is one
that I've heard from multiple sources as well. And uh
there's furthermore a story that representatives from McDonald's were sniffing
(21:20):
around Pong's restaurants around this time, and that that's where
they developed the formula for the breading of chicken nuggets.
Oh wow, Uh yeah, nuggets. Can't can't avoid them. No,
And also I saw it come up in terms of
the sweet and sour sauce. Oh sure, right right, Speaking
(21:42):
of very brief Orange chicken aside, So Panda Express, the
largest Chinese fast food chain in the United States, claims
to have created orange chicken, the product of the then
executive chef Andy Cow classically French Train. He invented this
dish at one of the company's Hawaii locations. He called
(22:06):
it a variation of General Sos Chicken when he created
at the request of customers. In the words of Chef
Jimmy Wong who works at Panda Expresses California Innovation Kitchen. Yes,
orange chicken is probably one of the most genius creations
in the past thirty years. It's taking everything that we
love crispy fried chicken tossed with savory, sweet and sour
(22:26):
sauce that really hits all the senses and taste buds
in your mouth. Yep, yep, that's it. That's what it is. True,
And unfortunately Pung didn't find very much success in New
York City. Apparently Chef Wong's versions of like Hunan American
(22:46):
dishes were more popular, so he wound up not staying.
Pong wound up not staying in the United States for
very long. M Yeah, and when he returned to his
hometown in Hunan to open a restaurant, he included general
sous on the menu. However, the restaurant didn't last too
long and the dish itself wasn't very pop through there.
(23:06):
Too sweet was the big complaint about it, but that
didn't stop some of the top chefs in that area
from learning how to make it. And when those chefs
did demonstrations abroad, people expected them to know how to
make general sous because they thought that's where it's from.
The most famous Hunanese dish, as it has been called. Yeah,
(23:30):
and it may have been a point of pride and
unwillingness to admit this popular Hunanese dish actually originated from
an exiled political party in Taiwan, or perhaps a strategic
decision to not ignore a dish of such world renown,
and when Hunanese cuisine in general wasn't very well known.
Maybe it was all the above and more. But whatever
(23:51):
the case, some Hunanes chefs began including it in their
recipe collections, particularly those targeted towards a Taiwanese audience. Yeah. So,
even though most people who live in Hunn I've never
heard of it, some of the province's top chefs like
cling to it as a whu non original. Mm hmmm.
(24:14):
Here's another quote from me, what I discovered in America.
General So's like Colonel Sanders is known for chicken and
not war. In China, he is known for war and
not chicken. Yes, and the documentary The Search for General
So came out, Lee said of it, the film uses
(24:34):
the ubiquitous spicy sweet chicken dish as a window into
the Chinese American immigrant experience in a way, it reflects
my own experience growing up Chinese American. Oh, it's such
a it's such a great documentary. I really really do
recommend watching it. It's just got interviews with a whole
lot of extremely delightful, very passionate human people. And and
(24:55):
one in one of the segments, the film crew goes
around to places in in Hunan and like show them
photographs of General So's chicken from America and they're like,
what is this? Do you know what this is? And
they're like what, what the heck is that? Is that food?
(25:17):
Like that? What do you do? Yeah, it's very it's
very sweet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is amazing. As we
so often talked about on the show, but this is
a dish that once again tells so much like a
story in history, just plate of food. It's amazing. When
(25:43):
asked about America's take on General Sous chicken speaking of
Hong said, nonsense, and I believe is it in the
documentary They showed him pictures as well, and he was like, oh,
I don't got away from me. That was that was
(26:04):
very very much the the emotion that he espoused about it. Yes, yes, um,
he died in Pong Did at the age of He
was still cooking in one of his family's ten restaurants
in Taiwan basically up to his death. Yeah. Yeah, he
(26:27):
sounded like somebody who really enjoyed the working, working in
the kitchen and creating these things. Yeah, a lot of
twist and turns in this story, and I so badly
the craving it's it is one of the more intense
(26:47):
ones that I mean, like I feel like I say
this every other episode, but yeah, like like that, this
is one that I'm actually serious about. I'm like, I
don't usually order this dish unless I'm drunk at two
in the morning, but like this might be what's happening
for dinner, Like that just might be it. Like I
don't know if I can resist. I don't. I don't
(27:09):
who can resist the call? I hope you get it
and tell me how it goes. I'm actually just now
getting to because of a variety of high jinks. I'm
just now getting to my st Patrick's day corned beef.
So I made a huge thing of that, so I
can't I gotta wait till that's gone. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah,
(27:31):
but that actually is a good segue into our listener mail.
We have Oh yes, but first we've got one more
quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back.
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, and we're back with
(27:55):
listener sweet and sour. That's great, me wrote related happy
St Patrick's day. I just listened to your latest episode
and had to write in with more Guinness is good
for you lore. The Irish Blood Transfusion Service used to
(28:18):
offer blood donors a bottle of Guinness after their donation
to restore their iron levels. This ended around two thousand
nine or two thousand ten before my donating career, due
to changing blood alcoholm it's for drivers and I suppose
quote moving with the times, it was deep no longer
an appropriate partnership. Nowadays, the blood donation clinics offer non
(28:41):
alcoholic soft drinks like seven up Pepsi Club Orange, which
is an Irish soda made quote with the bits um
or tea and coffee. I made my tenth donation on Tuesday,
but had a Guinness myself at home for the nutritional
patriotic value and then yeah, I love it. I love
it so much, I so I think Within hours after
(29:05):
the Guinness episode went up. We received so many maile
of so much for me, all about Guinness, and I'm
so excited to read it. I love it. Yes, awesome.
Anything that inspires a passion like that is so so entertaining,
so inspiring. M. Sweat t wrote, I just finished listening
(29:27):
to your Guinness episode while I was working and took
a break to write this. Listening to Annie's story made
me reminisce to my own trip that I took to
Dublin with my best friend at the beginning of clearly
before the entire world shut down. L O l Annie Who.
That's a story that's been shared already. What I wanted
to share was a little tradition we came up with
after that trip. Since we got back from our trip,
(29:49):
we decided that every year on the anniversary of our
visit to the Guinness Storehouse January eight and the Jamison
Distillery January nine, we would share those specific drinks on
their respective anniversaries. Now at St. Patrick's Day where it
all comes together. So yesterday, for our second St. Patty's
Day in a row, we went to an outdoor bar
and shared a warm shot of Jamison and chased it
(30:10):
with our pints of Guinness, and every year we say
the same toast to each other. I don't know what
I would do without you in my life. I love
you and Siluncha. It's a tradition that I can't wait
to continue till we're old but still slinging shots back,
this time in rocking chairs. Oh so lovely, you guys
writing with the best traditions, I know, yes, oh yeah.
(30:35):
And I'm not sure if I've told this story before,
but the Guinness Brewery is located near the Jamison Distillery.
Um so I think I did a similar thing. And
I remember being like wide eyed American tourist, who is
going on this Jamison tour? And I kid you not.
They poured like three pretty big pores of because they
(30:58):
wanted you to compare Jamison with Johnny Walker and the
other one whiskey. So like you had these like three
like decent, decent sized pores. Was it? What's the one
from Kentucky? It was? It's American one of Scottish one
in an Irish one. Okay, maybe Jack Daniels or yeah, yeah,
(31:21):
I think so. And I remember being like, wow, so
American distillery. Ser bit's stingy on the pores are there
a bit a bit overboard. I'm not sure which, but alright,
try your competitors whiskey as well. Sure, yeah, I'll take
three shots despite what what I might have going on
(31:42):
for the rest of my life. Yeah, okay, it was
a really good tour. It was that aside, it was
the science is really cool. Um yeah yeah, So thank
you to both of them for writing in very much
looking forward to reading a few sure in this related
emails that we have um in the meantime, if you
(32:05):
would like to email, as you can our emails Hello
at savor pod dot com. We're also on social media.
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Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and
(32:26):
Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we hope
that lots more good things are coming your way.
Hello, and welcome to Faber production of I Heart Radio.
I'm any Recent and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we're
talking about General So's Chicken. Yes we are. Someone's going
to be another fun adventure with pronunciation of her purpost. So.
I really don't I don't have much experience with this one.
I know, I feel like we've been on a really
(00:29):
strong kick of these. I know. I think this is
like the fourth or fifth one. Um, my family used
to have a tradition again. I grew up in a
very small town of ordering Chinese food on a couple
of Fridays a month from when I was growing up,
and we did it for so long. The woman who
ran that restaurant would just say forty seven dollars and
(00:51):
sixty three cents before we even placed order because she
knew we didn't deviate. Okay, it was exactly yeah, and
that was it. And that's amazing. Um. I think this
happened like semi recently. I'm not sure she still runs it,
but like a couple of years ago, I think she
still was like this is the amount. Me and my
(01:13):
two brothers had our things, and my little brother loved
the sesame chicken and it it came with like a
dipping sauce that I think was the sweet and sour sauce. Um.
And my older brother also got something like that, But
I was all about the Mongolian beef and the egg
rolls and fried rice. Okay, okay, that was what it was. Sure, Yes,
(01:39):
I think I did try it General So's once at
a mall food court, but I thought it was too
sweet or something I just did in general, just didn't
do the fried chicken things with Chinese food. Sure, yeah.
Grow Growing up, my experience with American Chinese takeout culture
was yeah, well, my um my, my dad and I
(02:02):
would do like the Jewish American Christmas tradition of having
Chinese on Christmas Day for lunch. He would usually make
something nice for dinner, but but yeah, yeah, for for
lunch we would have Chinese and um gosh. His his
favorite was eggfu Young and I can't remember. I genuinely
cannot remember what I used to order when I was
a kid. I think it was probably like sesame or
(02:23):
orange chicken, which is basically a variation on General So's.
So yeah. These days, it's part of the regular circulation
of my households like late night order. Um, you know,
like like we're like, these are not sober humans who
or ordering this food at this juncture. But you know,
like it's it's like, yes, please put some corn syrup
(02:47):
on my fried chicken. That would be delightful. I would
like you to deliver that to my face. That would
be amazing. Yes, I have to say, I mean, in general,
this episode has left me with a kind of a
mayorganized Chinese food take out craving. Oh yes, oh oh
y'all the cravings in this one. I'm so sorry. I'm
(03:07):
so sorry. It's it's it's intense, and like I said,
I don't have much experience, which I will say, I
want it. I want it. It's very very tempting. And
I have to say, reading the story, which I imagine
some of you are familiar with, we're gonna get into, um,
it did remind me very much of my time in
(03:28):
China when I first arrived. You know, Chinese food. It's
a huge country, yeah, with many cultures and quisine and traditions. Yeah. Yeah,
it is absolutely not a monolith. Uh. And I was
lucky enough that I did get to travel and stay
and pretty wide. I mean That's another thing about China
is it's like physically huge, so it takes her ever
(03:49):
to get to places that on a map don't look
that far, yea. And I learned really really quickly just
how different food was from place to place, but also
extremely different from Chinese food in the United States. Um,
which made sense, It makes sense to me, but was
also really eye opening. And in my experience, I could
(04:11):
be totally wrong because I obviously did not go everywhere
in China. Most of the closest things I got to
americanized Chinese food were in Hong Kong. Oh sure, yeah,
still different but yeah, oh gosh delicious food though, yeah
this is this is also right yeah, so so many
different engravings like I'm just I just want everything. I
want everything, like I missed my Sashwan places in Atlanta. Yes, yes,
(04:39):
but all right, let us get to our question. Yes,
general sos chicken what is it? Oh? That is a
great question, um, but well, general so, sometimes called a
pronounced general sous chicken, is a dish composed of bite
sized pieces of marinated chicken usual dark meat, deep fried
(05:01):
and coated in this sweet, tangy, spicy sauce, often served
with steamed white rice and a vegetable, perhaps steamed broccoli.
The sauce can vary a bit, but the base ingredients
are in order of like of like content by by
volume or weight. I guess sugar always sugar soy sauce
or perhaps the richer dark soy sauce, chicken stocking, rice wine,
(05:24):
which is a kind of dry rice wine, rice vinegar,
sesame oil, some minced ginger, minced garlic, maybe some scallions,
dried chilies, and a little bit of corn starch as
a thickener. Um. As an alternative, you can add some
orange juice and zest to make orange chicken, or top
it with sesame seeds, which is basically just what sesame
(05:45):
chicken is, and the result is just so brilliantly basic.
Like it's just this absolute master class in comfort food contrast.
Like it's fatty and crispy and tender, um sweet and
sour and spicy and savory. We've talked about in our
snack food episodes, how these types of contrasts make your
(06:06):
brain go oh weird, more of that, more pleased. I
want to keep eating this forever. Um. It's such a
comfort food um known by many other vaguely related names um,
in addition to every possible angelic sized spelling of So,
you've got General Gal's chicken or General MOUs chicken, General
(06:27):
Joe's chicken. Apparently in the U. S. Navy they call
it Admiral So's chicken, which is just such a tiny slight.
I love it. I love it. You can make it
at home if you so choose. The incomparable JAKENJ. Lopezult
of Serious Eats has just a journey of a recipe
(06:48):
for it up um, and I highly recommend checking that
out if you would like to make it for yourself. Yes,
I'm very scared by the whole venture, to be honest.
Oh yeah, same, And I think journey of a recipe
is a great That's what I often go through in
my kitchen, ups and downs, emotional eyes and lows, you know.
(07:12):
But yes, what about the nutrition? Oh my goodness, y'all
eat a dang vegetable broccoli apparently? Oh yeah, yeah, I
love Whenever you get it would take out there's usually
like four pieces of broccoli. Yeah, and that's it. That's
what you get. Oh gosh, I mean okay, okay, like
(07:33):
it will it will fill you up and help keep
you going. It is high in fat and saturated fat
and sugar and salt. It does have a good punch
of protein. Um, some vitamins and minerals in there. I
watch your serving sizes. It's it's sugary fried chicken. Yeah,
fried chicken, and we added some sugar. We were like,
(07:55):
you know, you know this needs you know what type
of empty cal this doesn't have right now? Yes, um,
but we do have some numbers for you. We do
so these days they are about fifty thousand Chinese restaurants
in the United States, and that is more than KFC's, Wendy's,
(08:17):
Burger King, and McDonald's combined. That's a very popular stat's throne.
Wh're talking about this In Panda Express sold eighty million
pounds of orange chicken, which has is related more on
that later. Also a lot. That is their top selling
at that year, and I assume most years that's their
(08:37):
top selling item. In food delivery website grub Hub reported
that General So's ranked as the most popular Chinese food
item and the fourth most popular dish overall that year. Yeah,
it is particularly popular in the Eastern United States, not
(08:58):
so popular in who Nonchin you know where it's sort
of kind of originated a little bit um where it
was inspired by Yes, oh, this sounds like one of
those really funny movie titles where it's like inspired by
this thing that was influenced by this day. It was
(09:19):
like eight things. Yeah, it's one of those truth poland
and then like a word, right, wait what is this about? Oh? Yeah,
and we are going to get into that history. Yes,
but first we're in a post for a quick break
for word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsored,
(09:49):
Thank you. So. General so chicken has been the subject
of much food sleuthing. Yes, due to this popularity and
due to the fact that it does not exist as
such outside of the United States. And yeah, shout out
to the excellent documentary The Search for General so Um,
(10:10):
which came out in Yes. Okay, it's widely accepted that
this dish was created by Chinese chef Pong Chong Qui.
Born in Hunan in nineteen nineteen, Pong got into cooking
at a young age, serving as an apprentice for famous
Punanese chef Sao jing Chen as a teenager. He went
(10:32):
on to become a chef for the Chinese National government,
where he oversaw the national government's banquets until that regime
fell to Mao Zedong's Communist Party in nineteen forty nine,
and Pong fled alongside leaders of that political party to Taiwan.
There he continued crafting these feasts and banquets for government officials.
(10:53):
He opened a popular restaurant where he served class of
Hunan regional cuisine. As the story goes, he created General
Zos in or sometime in the fifties. He would later
recall um for a banquet for Chairman of the Joint
Chiefs of Staff. In some versions of the story, he
specifically tried to satisfy the palate of American Admiral Arthur W. Radford.
(11:18):
And this original version of the dish was not battered
and fried, and it wasn't very sweet um. From what
I understand, most Conan cuisine wouldn't involve very much sugar. Um.
But but yeah, I think that the chicken in this
original dish was skin on and was cooked until that
crisped before being coated in this tangy, spicy sauce. H
(11:42):
and Pong named it after a famous Hunan war hero,
jul Zongtang or Tong Um I tried. I'm sorry if
I ventured it. I tried who allegedly enjoyed eating this dish?
Which is pretty much impossible for yes, it's he would
(12:02):
not have no, but it just cracked me up. People
were like, ye, like, but wait, aren't we saying it
wasn't really a thing? All right? Um? Yes, there are
no known written records of a dish by this name
prior to this um in cookbooks out of Hunan or
anything like that. I mean, I'm sure people were like, well,
(12:24):
we might have liked eating chicken, and I feel like
this is a different that's different. Yeah, yeah, absolutely yes.
But quick history aside. Joel was born in Hunan in
eighteen twelve. He was a very successful military leader UM
in China, and is particularly known for reclaiming a strategic
and prized region from a group of weaker Muslims. According
(12:46):
to Jennifer eight Lee, who has done extensive research on
Chinese food in America, he quote played an important role
in the Typing Rebellion, which was a civil war started
by a Chinese guy who thought he was the son
of God and the baby brother of Jesus Christ. Really
was so great we had to include it. I know,
I know, but this is history's most violent civil war,
(13:10):
was somewhere between twenty two one million casualties. Yeah. Um,
and this guy was on the crush, the uprising peasants
side of the rebellion. And interestingly, um, because this dish
wound up being named after him, part of the belief
system that, from what I understand again, he and his
(13:31):
peers were operating on, was this desire to maintain traditional
Chinese culture and to keep Western influence at a distance. Oh.
I feel like he would not have liked this dish. No,
it reminds me of the whole Graham crackers totally. Uh. Yeah,
this original dish, as you said, Lauren, was quite different
(13:53):
from what you probably get at Chinese restaurants in America.
Pong said of his this first creation, General So's Chicken
did not pre exist in Hunanese cuisine. But originally the
flavors of the dish were typical Hunanese heavy sour, hot,
and salty, and no broccoli. Nope, it wasn't and isn't
(14:14):
grown in China. That was an American edition. But okay,
how and when did this dish get americanized? All right?
So in nine six five America changed his laws around
Chinese immigration. It had previously been barred because of the
Chinese Exclusion Act of eighteen eighty two. And yeah, okay,
(14:36):
so what had happened there was that during the gold
Rush of the eighteen forties and fifties there was this
influx of workers from China into California, and then later
after the Civil War that the American Civil War and
the economic depression that followed in many places, there was
this really xenophobic pushback against Chinese immigrants in America, like
(15:00):
there were massacres, like multiple I. I I really cannot overstate
how racist and how pervasive the anti Chinese messaging was,
especially in the West. Um And there were then a
number of laws passed in California and then nationally that
restricted first immigration of Chinese women to prevent families from
settling here, and and then Chinese people in general, with
(15:22):
a very few class related exceptions. In the early nineteen hundreds,
one of those exemptions was for restaurant owners, which is
part of what began the widespread creation of Chinese American
restaurants throughout the United States. Um UH that in the
creation of other small businesses like laundry services, were some
of the only options the Chinese people had here. UM.
(15:44):
They were literally excluded from many other forms of labor,
both legally and extra legally. And through UM inter community
support structures UM for for example, these community associations that
sprung up to help people like just figure out how
to exist here and and which remind me a lot
of the mutual aid societies that were solidifying in New
(16:05):
Orleans around the same time. Through UM. Through this community support,
this diaspora of immigrants spread out eastward across the United States,
sometimes in big cities, forming a like local Chinatown type population,
but often in the interest of not competing with other
members of the community, a family would settle in a
(16:26):
small town, you know, being the only Chinese family there,
and often would open a restaurant. And this is where
we get the first Chinese American dishes like chop suey,
things that like, really, we're not Chinese dishes, UM, but
might have been using some exotic Chinese ingredients UM in
ways that seemed both exciting and safe to white Americans. UM.
(16:51):
It was very smart and savvy, very effective as a
form of soft politics UM and very grassroots, just really
really amazing efforts by people who were making the best
of an incredibly bad situation. Mm hm. Those laws began
to change when China became an ally of the United
(17:11):
States during World War Two, but then got more stringent
as a result of the communism scare in the nineteen
fifties UM, and then finally during the Civil Rights Movement,
these and other racially discriminatory laws that were preventing immigration
based on national origins, based on any national origin that
basically wasn't like northwestern Europe. All of those laws were
(17:33):
struck town in like nineteen sixty five, with some effects
permeating out from there. But yes, so back to the
mid nineteen sixties, right, So, more and more Chinese and
Taiwanese chefs began arriving and opening restaurants in the United States. UM,
and chefs would place ads bragging that they were the
first to serve dish X y Z United States, kind
(17:56):
of really competing with each other and upping the anti
yeah yeah. Palm opened his first restaurant in New York
in nineteen seventies three. At the time, Hunanese food was
relatively unknown in the United States, but soon Pong's restaurant
gained a clientele from the nearby United Nations headquarters, and
in particular the then Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. According
(18:21):
to Palm, Kissinger visited as every time he was in
New York, and we became great friends. It was he
who brought Hunanese food to public notice. In nineteen seventy seven,
a food reviewer for The New York Times called the
dish at Pong's restaurant Generals quote a stir fried masterpiece,
sizzling hot broth and flavor and temperature, flavor and um.
(18:46):
Kissinger himself may have been turned onto this dish after
President Nixon had it when visiting China in nineteen seventy two.
And yeah, I don't have like a whole lot of
nice things to say about Nixon, but that visit does
seem to have done a want to improve Um White
Americans attitudes towards their Chinese American neighbors. At the time, right,
(19:07):
Um and purveyors of Chinese food in America did adapt
their dishes to the palettes of Americans, often adding sweetness
and or deep drying protein. Um Pong did the same
with Generals chicken, crisping it up and sweetening it. Um.
He returned to Taiwan and the late eighties quite wealthy.
(19:29):
His influence was seen on Chinese menus and dishes across
the United States, helped along by chefs who worked with
or near him. And I have to say, um reading
interviews with him, because people have gone and asked him
like tell us a story, and over time, I think
he was sort of confused and amused by it at first,
(19:50):
and then he was kind of like, well, what have
you done to this dish? So I know there's in
some articles I read he said he did adapted to
like American taste, especially with the sugar, and then others
he was kind of like unclear about how much he
did that, so I assume he did. But anyway, grain
(20:15):
of salt with that, yeah, Lee. The researcher you mentioned
earlier posits that the first recipe for this American version
of General Sos was actually called General Ching's Chicken, which
was a fried, sweet and sour dish. It originated in
New York after it was created by chef T. T. Wong.
Potentially he picked it up from Pong after a culinary
(20:37):
trip to Taiwan and then possibly modified it American taste.
General Ching was a mentor of General Jewels. Anyway, sometime
in the nineteen eighties, the name General So's combined with
General Ching's the recipe and there you go or possibly
(20:58):
see happening. Yeah yeah, and uh that that that story
about Um Wang having visited Uh Pong's restaurant is one
that I've heard from multiple sources as well. And uh
there's furthermore a story that representatives from McDonald's were sniffing
(21:20):
around Pong's restaurants around this time, and that that's where
they developed the formula for the breading of chicken nuggets.
Oh wow, Uh yeah, nuggets. Can't can't avoid them. No,
And also I saw it come up in terms of
the sweet and sour sauce. Oh sure, right right, Speaking
(21:42):
of very brief Orange chicken aside, So Panda Express, the
largest Chinese fast food chain in the United States, claims
to have created orange chicken, the product of the then
executive chef Andy Cow classically French Train. He invented this
dish at one of the company's Hawaii locations. He called
(22:06):
it a variation of General Sos Chicken when he created
at the request of customers. In the words of Chef
Jimmy Wong who works at Panda Expresses California Innovation Kitchen. Yes,
orange chicken is probably one of the most genius creations
in the past thirty years. It's taking everything that we
love crispy fried chicken tossed with savory, sweet and sour
(22:26):
sauce that really hits all the senses and taste buds
in your mouth. Yep, yep, that's it. That's what it is. True,
And unfortunately Pung didn't find very much success in New
York City. Apparently Chef Wong's versions of like Hunan American
(22:46):
dishes were more popular, so he wound up not staying.
Pong wound up not staying in the United States for
very long. M Yeah, and when he returned to his
hometown in Hunan to open a restaurant, he included general
sous on the menu. However, the restaurant didn't last too
long and the dish itself wasn't very pop through there.
(23:06):
Too sweet was the big complaint about it, but that
didn't stop some of the top chefs in that area
from learning how to make it. And when those chefs
did demonstrations abroad, people expected them to know how to
make general sous because they thought that's where it's from.
The most famous Hunanese dish, as it has been called. Yeah,
(23:30):
and it may have been a point of pride and
unwillingness to admit this popular Hunanese dish actually originated from
an exiled political party in Taiwan, or perhaps a strategic
decision to not ignore a dish of such world renown,
and when Hunanese cuisine in general wasn't very well known.
Maybe it was all the above and more. But whatever
(23:51):
the case, some Hunanes chefs began including it in their
recipe collections, particularly those targeted towards a Taiwanese audience. Yeah. So,
even though most people who live in Hunn I've never
heard of it, some of the province's top chefs like
cling to it as a whu non original. Mm hmmm.
(24:14):
Here's another quote from me, what I discovered in America.
General So's like Colonel Sanders is known for chicken and
not war. In China, he is known for war and
not chicken. Yes, and the documentary The Search for General
So came out, Lee said of it, the film uses
(24:34):
the ubiquitous spicy sweet chicken dish as a window into
the Chinese American immigrant experience in a way, it reflects
my own experience growing up Chinese American. Oh, it's such
a it's such a great documentary. I really really do
recommend watching it. It's just got interviews with a whole
lot of extremely delightful, very passionate human people. And and
(24:55):
one in one of the segments, the film crew goes
around to places in in Hunan and like show them
photographs of General So's chicken from America and they're like,
what is this? Do you know what this is? And
they're like what, what the heck is that? Is that food?
(25:17):
Like that? What do you do? Yeah, it's very it's
very sweet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is amazing. As we
so often talked about on the show, but this is
a dish that once again tells so much like a
story in history, just plate of food. It's amazing. When
(25:43):
asked about America's take on General Sous chicken speaking of
Hong said, nonsense, and I believe is it in the
documentary They showed him pictures as well, and he was like, oh,
I don't got away from me. That was that was
(26:04):
very very much the the emotion that he espoused about it. Yes, yes, um,
he died in Pong Did at the age of He
was still cooking in one of his family's ten restaurants
in Taiwan basically up to his death. Yeah. Yeah, he
(26:27):
sounded like somebody who really enjoyed the working, working in
the kitchen and creating these things. Yeah, a lot of
twist and turns in this story, and I so badly
the craving it's it is one of the more intense
(26:47):
ones that I mean, like I feel like I say
this every other episode, but yeah, like like that, this
is one that I'm actually serious about. I'm like, I
don't usually order this dish unless I'm drunk at two
in the morning, but like this might be what's happening
for dinner, Like that just might be it. Like I
don't know if I can resist. I don't. I don't
(27:09):
who can resist the call? I hope you get it
and tell me how it goes. I'm actually just now
getting to because of a variety of high jinks. I'm
just now getting to my st Patrick's day corned beef.
So I made a huge thing of that, so I
can't I gotta wait till that's gone. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah,
(27:31):
but that actually is a good segue into our listener mail.
We have Oh yes, but first we've got one more
quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back.
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, and we're back with
(27:55):
listener sweet and sour. That's great, me wrote related happy
St Patrick's day. I just listened to your latest episode
and had to write in with more Guinness is good
for you lore. The Irish Blood Transfusion Service used to
(28:18):
offer blood donors a bottle of Guinness after their donation
to restore their iron levels. This ended around two thousand
nine or two thousand ten before my donating career, due
to changing blood alcoholm it's for drivers and I suppose
quote moving with the times, it was deep no longer
an appropriate partnership. Nowadays, the blood donation clinics offer non
(28:41):
alcoholic soft drinks like seven up Pepsi Club Orange, which
is an Irish soda made quote with the bits um
or tea and coffee. I made my tenth donation on Tuesday,
but had a Guinness myself at home for the nutritional
patriotic value and then yeah, I love it. I love
it so much, I so I think Within hours after
(29:05):
the Guinness episode went up. We received so many maile
of so much for me, all about Guinness, and I'm
so excited to read it. I love it. Yes, awesome.
Anything that inspires a passion like that is so so entertaining,
so inspiring. M. Sweat t wrote, I just finished listening
(29:27):
to your Guinness episode while I was working and took
a break to write this. Listening to Annie's story made
me reminisce to my own trip that I took to
Dublin with my best friend at the beginning of clearly
before the entire world shut down. L O l Annie Who.
That's a story that's been shared already. What I wanted
to share was a little tradition we came up with
after that trip. Since we got back from our trip,
(29:49):
we decided that every year on the anniversary of our
visit to the Guinness Storehouse January eight and the Jamison
Distillery January nine, we would share those specific drinks on
their respective anniversaries. Now at St. Patrick's Day where it
all comes together. So yesterday, for our second St. Patty's
Day in a row, we went to an outdoor bar
and shared a warm shot of Jamison and chased it
(30:10):
with our pints of Guinness, and every year we say
the same toast to each other. I don't know what
I would do without you in my life. I love
you and Siluncha. It's a tradition that I can't wait
to continue till we're old but still slinging shots back,
this time in rocking chairs. Oh so lovely, you guys
writing with the best traditions, I know, yes, oh yeah.
(30:35):
And I'm not sure if I've told this story before,
but the Guinness Brewery is located near the Jamison Distillery.
Um so I think I did a similar thing. And
I remember being like wide eyed American tourist, who is
going on this Jamison tour? And I kid you not.
They poured like three pretty big pores of because they
(30:58):
wanted you to compare Jamison with Johnny Walker and the
other one whiskey. So like you had these like three
like decent, decent sized pores. Was it? What's the one
from Kentucky? It was? It's American one of Scottish one
in an Irish one. Okay, maybe Jack Daniels or yeah, yeah,
(31:21):
I think so. And I remember being like, wow, so
American distillery. Ser bit's stingy on the pores are there
a bit a bit overboard. I'm not sure which, but alright,
try your competitors whiskey as well. Sure, yeah, I'll take
three shots despite what what I might have going on
(31:42):
for the rest of my life. Yeah, okay, it was
a really good tour. It was that aside, it was
the science is really cool. Um yeah yeah, So thank
you to both of them for writing in very much
looking forward to reading a few sure in this related
emails that we have um in the meantime, if you
(32:05):
would like to email, as you can our emails Hello
at savor pod dot com. We're also on social media.
You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at
savor pod, and we do hope to hear from you.
Savor is production of I Heart Radio four more podcasts
my Heart Radio. You can visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and
(32:26):
Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we hope
that lots more good things are coming your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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