Going Ham on Prosciutto di Parma Fraud

Prosciutto crudo from Parma, Italy is the world’s most famous – and most frequently fraudulent. Anney and Lauren explore the production laws and true crime behind prosciutto di Parma.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Savor production of iHeart Radio. I'm
Any Reese and I'm Lauren bog Obam and today we
have an episode for you about Puto di Parma fraud. Yes, um,
and it's a fun one. Uh but it already so
we chose this in part because of hijinks, and funnily enough,

(00:32):
it involves some hijinks. It involved more accidental hijinks. Well, okay,
so if if you're listening the day that it is
hopefully coming out, um it is. Uh it is April one,
a k a. April Fools Day, So happy April Fool's Day.
I hate April Fool's Day. Um, but it feels like
like you got your hands up in this defensive manner

(00:55):
and all these like internet articles are coming at me
and I'm like, it's like a false get away. And
then like I usually last year I thought there was
it was false the Knives Out sequel on Netflix. I
thought was in April fools prank because they announced it
on April Fools. So that's that's my that's my existence

(01:16):
on April Fool's Day. It's just like what is real
right right? Like like like the fabric of reality becomes
unfabricty it does it is here we are yeah, so okay.
So so we were thinking about what we did not do.
We had discussed and what we did not do is

(01:38):
do an episode not about food at all, um, but
just us, you know, having a prolonged Annie and Lauren
sidebar uh, which you know, and like kind of never
acknowledging it, yes, like doing it in the same format, yeah,
never mentioning that we were not talking about food. I
think Star Wars was in the running. We were just

(01:59):
gonna start like D and D or something. Yeah, yeah,
but we we did not do that. And so instead
I was like, okay, well, what can we maybe like
food fraud? That would be fun um. And so I
was kind of looking into some of the um most
well known cases of food fraud because we've done food
heists before, um, but food fraud is a whole separate

(02:23):
category and um and a lot of them, a lot
of them involved people getting like horribly poisoned, um, bye
bye bad food. And that was not the lighthearted episode
I was looking to do. But I fell upon presciuto
fraud um. And very very frequently, if there's a word

(02:49):
that I don't enjoy trying to spell. I'll use a
different term, and so pshutto di parma um, which is
parsiuto from the Parma region. Um is also called Parma ham.
So I was like, Hey, Annie, do you want to
do an episode about Parma ham fraud? Mm hmmm, And
I typed that in. I saw that there was a

(03:12):
lot of articles and said, absolutely, yes, let's do it.
I'm into it. Uh proceeded to do research on a
thing that I believed I knew nothing about. I had
no idea what Parma ham was. I thought it was
a Wellington situation for a very long time, and then

(03:34):
I eventually was like, Okay, it's kind of a cured
salted meat thing. And then after I'd done a lot
of a lot of the research already, I was like,
oh wait, I see um. So sorry Annie about that
accidental April fools. You got me. You know we're in

(03:57):
the spirit or in the spirit of this holiday. You
really got me. Oh, it's all good. It was so
funny though, because I have no idea what this is,
and there's so much fraud with it. What could it be? Yeah?
Like how is it so big? Like what's going on here?
How have I never heard of it, and the other

(04:21):
runner up was Parmesan, So I was like, if it's
in the same level of parmesan, which I know, I
mean I frequently run across in my life. Sure, I'm
how could I not know what this is? It turns
out I do, I just don't know it by that name.
Spelling strikes again usually usually Uh. This is largely not

(04:49):
an episode about precio, right, Um, I mean I do
love precoot though, oh I do too, although the research
has me wondering. Right, yeah. And also I'm like, I'm like,
have I ever had actual parma prosciutto? Like is that
a thing that I've consumed? I'm not a dent, sure,

(05:11):
especially due to some of these some of these issues
exactly exactly. Um, it's always something under the name of
prosciutto is almost always on my cheeseboard when I do
cheese giving. But who knows, a lot of people don't.
And uh, and that I suppose brings us to our question.

(05:34):
I guess it does pscudo diparma fraud? What is it? Uh? Well? Um, okay, yes,
this is not an episode about ham It's not an
episode about presciutto, crudo style ham. It's not even really

(05:59):
about prestuto di parma, but right rather about fraud surrounding
prestuto diparma. Nonetheless, let's let's break some of this down. Okay. Ham,
of course, is the catch all term for preserved pork products.
Presciuto means ham in Italian. In English, it's come to
be used specifically for what they would call an Italian

(06:22):
prestudo crudo, which is a type of dry cured ham
that's neither cooked nor smoked. Um. It's a It's a
leg of pork that's just salt cured, then washed and
hung to dry, usually for quite a while, over a year. UM.
It's usually served in very thin slices like paper thin
translucent um, often as an appetizer UH, sometimes wrapped around

(06:44):
a piece of like melon, or it can be a
topping for pastas or pizzas or sandwiches. It can be
wrapped around other meats and then cooked um, et cetera.
It's tender and salty and nutty and batty and has
like a tiny bit of chew but almost melts in
your mouth. Oh so good. Um. Okay. Pstudo di parma

(07:05):
means ham of parma. UM. It's prestido crudo that comes
from Parma, which is a province and a city in
northern Italy that is famous for its prestido crudo um
and for another food product, Parmesano roggiano cheese um. The
two industries co developed over time, and the pigs destined
for Parma ham are often fed diets supplemented with the

(07:27):
way left over from when parmesan cheese is made okay um.
There are also a number of other things about the
tera wir or like the entire micro climate really of
Parma that are considered to contribute to the presciuto that's
made there. Okay Now, under European Union law, prescudo di

(07:50):
Parma is a protected denomination of origin, which means that
to earn the right to label your product as such,
it has to meet a number of production end quality standards.
You start with the pigs um. They have to be
one of three breeds. They have to be born and
raised in one of ten particular regions in Italy, fed

(08:11):
on a particular diet, grown to a particular age, and
wait a minimum um slaughtered at a certified butcher. The
cuts to be used are carefully selected for size, and quality.
They have to be salted and rested in this particular
way for a particular number of days. They're shaped by
being beaten with wooden bats. They're sealed on the cut
end with this salt pepper pork fat rub and then

(08:31):
matured in these aging cellers that meet particular specifications for
a specific amount of time. It's nine intricate steps in
all um. When they're done, the Consortium of Purshudo di
Parma sends an inspector who takes They take this long
needle that's made of horse bone, and they pierced the

(08:55):
ham in five places and then smell the needle each
time for any signs of spoilage or off it not
being aged enough yet, or of it not being uniformly matured. Wow,
the Consortium of Sudo Diparma since the inspector with a

(09:15):
horse to smell. Oh my goodness, what a job. Yeah, okay,
So if if this inspector gives you the all clear, um,
then and only then can you brand your ham with

(09:37):
the Parma p d O symbol um, which is this
this oval that has the word Parma inside it and
has a five pointed crown on the top of the oval.
Okay um. This brand is produced with a metal fire
branding machine um U. The consortium produces a new set
of brands every two years with a a print tiny

(10:01):
flaw in the design somewhere that experts can look for
to tell a counterfeit ham from a real one. They
furthermore send a fresh set of these brands UH two
producers every three months to make sure that the design
stays sharp. Wow, dang right, I love this, I love

(10:29):
all of this okay uh and uh. And I'll note
here that like okay, prisciutto is not a protected word
um and depending on the labeling laws in your area,
you can call any dry cured ham of the style presciuto.
The diparma part is what's specific um. And there are

(10:51):
other protected origins and production processes of prisciuto around Italy UM,
but deparma is the most well known. Add a note
to the note, um. Of course, because this is an
agricultural product, there's still a variation in a prescio to partma,
from producer to producer, and even from ham to ham. UM.
The p d O is a set of minimum quality requirements. Yes,

(11:15):
m m m mmm um, Well what about the nutrition Um,
don't eat fraud. I feel like I have though in
my life without knowing he might have eaten something fraudulent. Um.
I don't think you ate fraud unless that's a very

(11:38):
like phantom tollbooth kind of thing, like you can't. Yeah, oh,
I loved that book. You know, for some reason what
comes to mind, And this is such a like spoiled
child point of view. But my mom I found out
she'd been lying to me that we weren't eating fruit loops,
eating something else, and she just the fruit loops and

(12:01):
I was outraged. I feel like that's eating fraud. There
was eating up the fraudulent fruit loops, but also fraud
was being you know, fraud was being served up and
you swallowed it. Yeah. And actually the non fruit loop
ones I think tasted better, but in that child way. No,
you're like I was promised to can sam I will

(12:24):
stand for nothing less? Yeah? Yes, well, uh, we do
have some numbers for you on this one. Gosh, we do. Yes.
So from Politico quote, Italy had of the e use
geographical Indications on food in which accounted for thirty eight
percent of the blocks total sales of g I products.

(12:48):
So Italy is a big player in this. Another number
from that same article, geographically protected items sell for twice
as much as the next competitor, and sales of parm
ma ham are because I never changed it. I was
just like, i'll fix it later, and I never did
so Parma appreshoot a pharma generate about seven fifty million

(13:11):
euros a year. That's a little under nine hundred million dollars. Yes,
overse seventy nine million packs were produced in t and
the UK is the largest buyer of pre sliced packs.
So yes, it is a big business and as such
attracts a lot of fraud. According to one article I read,

(13:34):
food fraud cost Italy's economy billions um. That same source
cited a number from the Italian Fraud Squad, which is
a thing, yes, asserting that in the value of seizures
in the fraudulent meat market amounted to one forty three
point seven million euros um. One estimate suggests that right

(13:57):
now about two out of three hand products old in
Italy come from Dutch, French, German or Spanish pigs, which
again going back to that to like formal definition doesn't count.
The consortium pays about seven and fifty thousand dollars u
S dollars in legal fees a year to protect their product. Um,

(14:17):
and this really is a huge deal. Of the eight
million pigs raised in Italy each year, seventy of their
meat goes to one or more of the thirty six
cured meats with the much sought after EU certified quality
UH and those region labels. Um. These meats contribute about
twenty billion euros to the Italian economy annually. Hoofed up. Yeah,

(14:39):
big deal. Yes, and this this also did make me
really really really want to do like a wider appreciat
oh episode absolutely yeah, um for forthcoming at some point, Yes,
at some point. But in the meantime we've got plenty

(15:02):
of ground to cover when it comes to just the
fraud aspect. Yes, and we are going to get into
that history as soon as we get back from a
quick break for a word from our sponsors, and we're back,
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. So first things first,

(15:24):
there is a long history of food fraud. Oh. And
we've talked about several cases, um, perhaps not specifically like
this one, but like in Cheddar, we talked about it.
So we've touched on a few examples in past episodes. Um,
there also is a long history of uh parma ham

(15:45):
are kind of like salted or cured and or cured him. Um.
But yeah, we're not going to go into that too
deeply today. UM. We're honing in specifically on the fraud. Yes, yes,
but just for some context. Kato the Elder wrote about
air cured hands he tasted in Perma and their extraordinary
flavor in two BC. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the

(16:09):
product has been around for a minute. UM. Okay, skipping
pretty far ahead. UM. Italy established its system of Denomination
of Controlled Origin or d o C in nineteen sixty three. UM.
And this was part of a larger effort around Europe
at the time to establish a framework for the international

(16:33):
economy and to help businesses thrive. UM. The the European
Economic Community was formed just a few years earlier. Italy
based their d o C laws on the French AOC.
And Yeah. The idea was to specify quality standards for
food and drink products, UM, including how and where they're
made and how to label them. It's it's part marketing,

(16:57):
part like preservation of traditional methods of production, and part
protection for these for these hard working producers to not
have their their time and care and and profits undercut
by by any old anybody who decides to stamp Parma
on a ham right. That same year, nine sixty three,

(17:17):
the Consortium of Presciuto di Parma formed, and an independent
collective of twenty three local producers who UM, seeing all
this happening, wanted to set down their own ground rules.
This was a voluntary formation UM. The first d o
C laws regarding Presiuto di Parma were passed in Italy
in nineteen seventy. In night the government officially charged the

(17:42):
consortium with controlling their product in The consortium added to
their to their to their brand UM that that Parma
Crown brand Yeah mark with the initials of the production plant,
so that you have more UM, more specific evidence of

(18:02):
where a product came from hand came from UM. The
DFC system got wrapped into the European Unions Protected Denomination
of Origin or PDO system, and that brings us to
the laws as they currently stand and and and the

(18:23):
fraud that occurs under them. Yes, indeed, because the geographical
designation is huge in terms of protecting a product's identity
the place of origin, the producers and as mentioned in
boosting profits. I like that you said, it's also a
marketing thing. But also for consumers. If you're going to
pay the sort of premium price for some you want

(18:45):
to know, Okay, this is the real deal, right. Um.
So the organizations in charge of these designations, including those
of Pursuded Diparma, have had some success in shutting down
producers not adhering to these guidelines that we've laid out. UM.
For example, in two thousand three, the consortium behind Pursuited
diparma successfully one a case against a UK supermarket UM

(19:08):
selling this product that was not sliced in an approved
region in Italy as per the established EU standards. I
know it is no, it's great though. I anyway, UM,
other cases have been outright shocking in the magnitude of

(19:29):
fraud going on in this pursuited deparma world, and for
like how long it's been going on? Yes, So in
seventeen investigators started looking into what was going on in
the pursuited deparma world, specifically in Italy. UM prosecutors discovered
that breeders and slaughterhouse owners in Italy were skirting the

(19:50):
pursuited deparma rules. By importing high quality pig sperm from
outside in order to breed leaner breeds of pigs. Four
pursuited diparma in order to get more meat out of
each pig and increase profits. So just like take all,
take all of that in they were illegally importing pig

(20:17):
sperm in order to to tweak their stock. Yes, and
this of course was in direct defiance to the rules
set up around purtuted diparma um, decreating that pigs used
for this product had to be male pigs of an
entirely Italian bloodline. Mm hmmm. So in Italy's food specialist police,

(20:39):
which also yes exists, UH, sent dozens of officers to
investigate thirty farms and slaughterhouses in northern Italy, and they
collected hundreds of DNA samples from the pigs used for
this ham. The investigators suspected that the pig stock had
been inseminated with genetically enhanced sea men from the Danish

(21:01):
Druk pig, which is yes, a pig not from one
of the Italian regions that the raw material for partrugo
diparma must originate according to these established rules. Al right, um.
And another thing I didn't know exist. In March of
the same year, the Danish Pig Research Center, which is

(21:22):
a renowned research center specializing in pig genetics, contacted Italian
officials about their concerns around the fraud and how it
might be related to sperm supplied from an Italian firm,
Like can you imagine this email? Like, hope this email
finds you. Well, this might sound strange, but um and

(21:47):
actually the Italian authorities in question responded with, quote, the
investigation didn't involve any public health concerns. Uh. And this
isn't according to the Danish officials, who also claimed that
they would speak out against quote any business that misuses
our brand and or doesn't operate within the law. So
this Danish people at this big research center, this Danish

(22:11):
big research center sent this email. According to them, response
they got back from Italian authorities was like no, it's fine.
Uh and they said, is not gonna He said, well,
it's not fine and we're not going to allow it. Yeah. Yeah.
It was this huge kerfuffle though, um and um and

(22:33):
like kind of like called into question the the veracity
of the entire labeling system in Italy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
um and it gets worse because as a part of
this whole thing, Animal Writes groups snuck into a farm
in northern Italy that produced Pursued Diparma UM and other
hands like related similar meats, and they placed cameras and

(22:56):
secretly recorded inside this farm for six months. They gathered
all of this evidence of how terribly the pigs were
being treated to produce a meat that they were selling
as high quality. Was sort of that understanding that the
pigs that went into it were taking care of the
fed well and then selling it at that higher price.
That understanding. Yes, Um, and this is not the only

(23:21):
case of fraud when it comes to Pursue a Diparma.
Stepping back a bit to when authorities rated an Italian
bunker that was filled with Polish ham that was being
repackaged and labeled with counterfeit labels from Italian companies, including
Pursuit a Diparma. During the raid, the police confiscated all
kinds of products as evidence, including fridges, knives, and hairnets.

(23:45):
And stepping back even further, in two thousand seven, more
than one thousand hams were seized in Italian warehouses and
stores across the country, and authorities suspected that many others
had been sent to deboning plants in other countries to
be labeled as d OPD. Get this label um of
origin of protected origin. Yeah, when they were not when

(24:06):
they were not in Pursuto department being a part of
that whole thing. Yeah. Um. Following UM all of these,
all of these scandals, and specifically the genetic scandal UM.
In nineteen, the Consortium updated their guidelines for Presuto Department

(24:27):
production UM with UH, with some with some just some
general stuff about the product, like like longer minimum maturation
periods UM, a little bit of elbow room for new
technologies and production, especially with an eye towards sustainability measures. UM. Also,
they made it mandatory to take genetic samples of the

(24:50):
male pigs in the production system for Partment Presuto so
that they can do paternity tests to help track fraud.
Oh my gosh, this is like Mari for pigs. Yes, yes,

(25:15):
I am I really like okay, like like fraud, fraud
is very serious, like people's livelihoods are at steak. Also,
this is precisely the kind of true crime story that
I find irresistibly delicious. All right, this is so fun

(25:37):
to read about. I'm like Oh heck, y'all have hand police.
I love it. Yeah, yeah, the hand police. Um. I
think I made this joke earlier because I was telling
somebody about how you kind of semi accidentally pranked me.
I made an off handed joke about like it's all

(25:58):
Hams on deck. Oh. I think like we're already giving
this food fraud true crime show a lot of material. Um,
I'm just saying we're we're waiting. We've you know, done
our part, and I'm happy. I'd be happy to see it. Also,

(26:20):
like it's very It's always fun to think about somebody
because I don't know if you encounter this, I imagine
you do. But a lot of times when I tell
people what I do, there's still the air of like
really and I think cam police maybe not maybe not
like listeners let us know, But to me, that seems

(26:41):
like a job that if I heard somebody did it,
I'd be like, You've got to explain more on you
be like I'm on a need. I'm gonna need you
to break that down for me. Yeah. Uh yeah, I
mean I don't write no absolutely. Um yeah, and well
I guess I guess like like I'm definitely only in
my personal life. Aside from this kind of reading, I'm

(27:03):
pretty far removed from the daily necessities of agriculture, and
you know, which is part of why I love doing
the show, because I think it's really important for us
all to u to have in the back of our
minds when we're eating and and buying the food that
we are going to eat. Um. But but yeah, yeah,

(27:24):
I don't know. Also with podcasting, though, like I have
to explain it to like myself every day, Like I'm like,
this is a very confusing thing that we do. I'll
be having like a serious life conversation with my roommates
and then I'm just like, Okay, well I really need
to go research mangoes, so we'll have to put I

(27:51):
need to look into these pigs fraternity to us. I'm
gonna need to read about some carbon nanotubes being applied
to spinach leaves. So yeah, for email purposes. So I'm
going to be back with you in a couple of hours.
People are giving us a sight I like, sure, no

(28:19):
for reals though. Also there's there's definitely a like pig
I am not your father joking here, Oh oh no, oh, yeah,
I'm sure it's been made it's not original ground, but
I feel like I had to be said yeah, well, no,
thank thanks, thanks. I'm looking out for everybody, is ultimately

(28:41):
my when it comes to puns and star wars and
star war responds particularly, Oh we really are we really
are all looking out for each other. Um oh oh
heck Okay. I didn't work this in naturally into the conversation,
but I wanted to specify before and I think this
is the last thing we have to say about uh

(29:03):
parma presido fraud um. The reason that they use that
horsebone needle I didn't I didn't say earlier. The reason
they use it is because it's a very porous material
um and so it uh it absorbs or I guess
ads orbs if you're being technical about it. Um sent

(29:24):
compounds very quickly and then releases them very quickly, so
you can work with it in a rapid manner to
get these scent tests from the different sections of the ham,
which is fascinating. And also, as I told Lauren earlier,
like how did someone arrive at this? I know the

(29:48):
perfect solution horsebone needle. Ah, Yes, of course, because it's
it sounds like Kramer had to have slid into the
room deliver this proposal. It does oh Seinfeld reference, I
loved um. Yes, but that is why we are not

(30:12):
We are not the ones. No we I am. Yeah,
I'm not creative enough nor metal enough to have proposed
this for I feel like you've got some creative solutions.
I think between us, you know, maybe not horsephone level. Yeah,
I've definitely done some things that we're feel pretty creative.

(30:36):
I've definitely done some things. Yep, that's all we need
to say. Yes, well, okay, that is what we have
to say. Shoot deparma fraud um. But we do have

(30:57):
some listener mail for you. We do, and we'll get
into that after one more quick break for a word
from our sponsor. We're back. Thank you sponsored, Yes, thank you,
and we're back with isn't that the like CS? I like? No,

(31:23):
it's n C, I s goes. I'm not sure. Okay,
I'll take it. I'll except that it is. I feel
like it's a running joke. Whenever you do the like Jack,
you put the sunglasses on and it's nighttime, then they

(31:44):
cut to that sound, So listeners let us know. Maybe
I'm way off, but it's at least a running joke
in my world. That doesn't involve actually watching watching that show.
I'm only vaguely aware through references on other show is
to that show that that's a thing. Exactly right. Well,
this is very important information listeners. This is Yeah, you're welcome. Yes, yes,

(32:10):
I would love to get some male about that. Look,
that's supernatural. Segment was really funny. Okay, excellent, so good.
The whole episode is so good anyway, So this one's
gonna be more fun with pronunciation, but I'm going to
give it a go. Okay, okay, uh Nive wrote, thanks

(32:32):
for that really interesting episode about black pudding. Black and
white pudding continue to be really popular here in Ireland,
but in the last couple of years here alternatives to
the traditional black and white puddings have become more widely available,
including gluten free and vegan options in addition to the
traditional blood puddings. However, the more interesting version of blood
pudding is from my home city Cork, Ireland, which has

(32:55):
a hyperlocal, very traditional kind of disappearing variant called drishen.
In addition to the stand black pudding. UM and NIV
was very helpful and gave a pronunciation note. I hope
that I managed it somewhat yes, um, he continues, I
haven't had drishin since I was little. The texture is
very different to black pudding. The recipe includes milk slash cream,

(33:17):
and it's a lot more jelly like than the crumbly
black pudding people are used to. Machine is now only
produced by one very specialized butcher who has had a
stall in the city market since the early nineteen hundreds,
specializing in tripe, cow stomach and grain. I remember going
into town on weekends in the nineteen eighties with my
mother and going to that stall in the market, the

(33:38):
same stall her mother went to. The little stall still
looks the same with its big, old fashioned hanging weighing scales,
and continues to trade through changing times and through COVID.
The current owner was quoted in the local newspaper at
the end of one talking about his family's legacy as
quote one of the oldest and most idiosyncratic cultural food
legacies in the city. Quote. There's not much interestine, really,

(34:01):
it's just blood and salt mixed together in a casing.
Making machine is more of an art than a recipe.
I make it myself. I'm the only fellow in the
world making sine. I'd say I do feel a responsibility
to keep making it because I like to keep the
family tradition going. We've been renowned in Cork for it
for so long, so yes, it is important for me
to keep it going as long as I can. Oh.

(34:23):
I love so much of this. I love we love
hyperlocal things we've talked about before. I love this idea
that you went with your mother to that stall, and
your mother presumably went with her mother to that stall.
That it's kind of this family tradition, as the owner
is talking about, like they've been there so long, and
we want to keep this tradition going, and it is
important for people to come and try this thing where

(34:46):
they can't get it anywhere else. And the kind of
memories and connections. Yeah, and then right, the not only nostalgia,
but right that sense of time that you get and
O all through sausage. Yes, and I hope I didn't
but your the pronunciation. I know it's kind of switching

(35:08):
back and forth between some of them, but yes, here's hoping, solid, solid,
solid attempt at any rate. Megan wrote, my friend introduced
me to the Savor podcast about a year ago, and
I've been working my way through each episode in order.
Since your show brings me great joy when driving, working out, baking,
and cleading my aquarium. Oh yeah, that's when I listen

(35:31):
to podcasts anyway, Um they continue. Um. Plus, it provides
me with plenty of fun facts to share with the
executive chef and sous chef at work. My boyfriend and
I were very excited to see that you had a
bagel episode, as he's a personal trainer and one of
his clients just so happens to be Marvin Lender. Yes,
that Lender. I was just thrilled to hear that the

(35:51):
name appeared in the bagel episode. Him and his wife
are very sweet and surprisingly do not eat as many
bagels as you would think. Oh that is that's always fascinating.
I'm I'm so tickled every single time that we learned
that these brand names were yeah like some some dude

(36:13):
at some point. Yeah, yeah, And it's interesting to hear
these connections that, yeah, your listeners are so so cool,
then you have these but I love that the guy
doesn't really eat that many. I get it though, you know, sometimes,

(36:33):
especially like I went through this period where not that
I'm on the same level, but I was making the
one type of cookies over and over again because everybody
loved them and I loved them too. They're really amazing,
and now I'm like, every time somebody requests them, it's
a chore not to roll my eyes, and yeah, it's
kind of a pain. And then yeah, I'm probably gonna

(36:55):
eat too many of them, and I'm gonna taste the
batter and then I'm gonna feel my stomach is gonna
be all twitter stood up sugar. Yeah. Yeah. And I
find that with baking specifically, by the time I'm done
producing a baked good, I want nothing to do with it. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm the same. It's pretty rare. Like sometimes I want
like a little taste and then that is it. Yeah,

(37:17):
I don't want this in my orbit anymore. I don't
want to smell it. I don't want to look at it.
Get out of my life. Yeah. Um, so we get
it totally to hear they're they're very nice. Yes, oh
goodness always yes, um Well, thanks to both of these
listeners for writing. If you would like to write to us,
we would love to hear from you. Um Our email

(37:39):
is Hello at saver pod dot com. We are also
on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook
and Instagram. Our handle at all three places is at
Saver pod and yes we do hope to hear from you.
Um Saver is production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
my Heart Radio, you can visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favor rich shows.

(38:00):
Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan Bagan and
Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we hope
that lots more good things are coming your way. H