June 19, 2019 • 48 mins
How does any given cheese get from an udder to your plate? The creators at Looking Glass Creamery give us a tour and talk about the science and culture of crafting wildly different cheeses from just three base ingredients: milk, salt, and bacteria.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello, and welcome to save a prediction of I Heart
Radio and Stuff Media. I'm Annies and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum.
And today we have an interview for you about cheese,
an interview plus tasting. Oh yes, absolutely so all right.
When we were in the Asheville area last year, goodness
was it so long ago? Heck? Um, we visited Looking
(00:29):
Glass Creamery, which is out in Fairview, North Carolina. It's
a dairy farm and cheesemaker. Yes, and it was wonderful
and we got to wear hairnets and these like lab
coat looking things. It was the coolest hairnet I think
we've ever We've had some hairnet experience at this point.
And we took a very goofy picture together. Yeah. Um
(00:49):
and yeah. We got to see some making of cheese
and we got to eat some of the cheese that
we saw the process of making. Yeah it was. It
was wonderful and loud and very warm. Um it was.
It was the most up close and personal I have
been to the making of giant heck and wheels of
cheese and oh it was. It was wonderful. Um. Yeah.
(01:10):
We we spoke with Jen Perkins, who is the co
owner and cheesemaker, they're about the making process. Uh. We
kind of hit away in this little like cold closets face.
We were all lying, Yeah, I I got I got
so warm that she saw like I was. I was
just sweating buckets. And I think she started to notice
(01:32):
my eyes kind of glazing over in the middle of
the interview, and she was like, would you like to
see our cheese seller where it is several degrees cooler
than out here, where it is really heck and warm,
And um, I was so grateful for the opportunity, not faint. Yes, yes,
Jen was amazing, and then yes afterwards, um Sean Stanley,
their retail manager, who was also a certified cheese professional,
(01:55):
which is like a smaller of cheeses. Uh huh, Yeah,
he guided us through the tasting of of a board
of their cheeses, and in classic SAB style, we were like,
we we like them, these taste good, these are all great,
no further comment. Hopefully we said a couple more interesting
(02:15):
things than that, but yes, yes, I think we did.
And one of the things that we found interesting about
Asheville at large is how many people kind of work
together and one of the most popular cheeses, um from
this dairy farm is chocolate lab which they use at well,
they work together with French Broad Chocolates, who we also
(02:37):
had an interview with while we were there. Yeah, they
they use cocoa nibs on the rind of the cheese
and it is so good, oh goodness. And so without
further ado, we will get to the interview and the
cheese tasting. What. Yes, it's gonna get all thought from
(03:00):
here around the pretty quick or potter, I say, um,
gonna mean to give you a little orientation what we'll
make you hear? And yeah, I which So this is
our very wallow cheese, which is a America Good Food
Ward winner for two thousand and eighteen. Is an Alpine
style and sean are sorted by chief professional can tell
you more about sensory characteristics, but in terms of production,
(03:21):
part of what makes an Alpine is we cooked the
herd really warm. You can see on the control it's
a hundred twenty degrees um. And this is a raw
milk cheese too. So we started pretty late today at
ten am. It's two o'clock and we're ready to scoop,
which is an awesome bonus of rawmup cheese. Is that
if the process goes a lot faster. But being an
alpine cheese, we want it sitting in a body of
warm way so that when we take that curd out
(03:43):
and scoop it in, it knits together really quickly and
becomes a soft, pillowy mass. UM. So cooking it as
fast as we did, and then we'll also press it,
that's gonna yield a long term like a dryer style cheese. UM.
But it still has some flexibility in the paste and
it's uh, but it's really I think a raw milk cheese.
It gets a lot of where our belk is coming from,
kind of grassy nuttiness. You get a lot of character. Uh.
(04:07):
And once we get into our new cage where we
can really age it out where it needs to be
at six eight or twelve or even eighteen months. It
transforms every couple of months every time we try it.
So we're excited about that. UM. But yeah, so you
have questions about this. What we're doing right now is
draining the way to the level of the curd. Since
it it's pretty warm, then we're going to start pretty
immediately scooping the curd into these wheels, so it came
(04:28):
exactly at the right time. Very exciting part of cheese making.
Um and uh. And we'll fill these up and they'll
hang out in here, we'll press them in the way
with a small amount of weight, we'll flip them and
then we'll press them in our press for a longer
amount of time overnight. Um. But yeah, So what questions
can I answer? Um? Is this a traditional process that
(04:52):
you kind of like? How how did you guys arrive
at a specific process that you're using. That's part of
what makes an Alpine cheese is that it is pressed underway,
is what they say. Um. So a lot of times
they all sweep the curd and put it back in
the vat and have more way than we have on
this table, Like this is what works for us, and
it yields a really nice cheese. And um, so that's
kind of the nice thing. Every place you go, they're
gonna do it a little bit different, maybe tweak the
(05:14):
traditional part to to come to make something that is
of their own. So we fill up our draining table
with whey. So it's probably a third of the way
up the mold, but it's enough to keep the curd
super warm and the lids. We have that sitting in
the way so they stay warm, so it's still retains
that extra heat which makes that curd really together and
have a dense paste. So Sean probably had some things.
(05:38):
So she said Alpine style cheese that's made in the
same way as those cheeses from like the frenchance with Alps,
like career compte. So it's and the point they're like,
why we want to really dense cheese is that we're
taking the cows up to the top of the mountain
and then eventually we're gonna bring the cheese back down.
So they wanted to get this really compact, dense collection
of nutrients that we're in the milk because they're gonna
(05:59):
have to eat that at the us the winner, and
then bring the cows back up to the spring. So
that's how they came to this process was they wanted
to like get as much stuff out of there and
into the cheese as they could because they didn't want
to carry like, you know, fresh cheese. You would just
have chuckles of that's take back down. He's taking these
really dense compact meals a lot less when you always
sorry you can't see, but to speak to Chan's point
(06:22):
is this curd is really almost like rice grains even smaller.
It's really tiny and curd um you know from a
softer cheese is going to be much bigger. So we've
cooked this and cut it really small to force that
way out to help make that dense paste that Shamas
take talking about. So and you can see too it
like you just with hand pressure, it's so warm it
comes together in a mass really easily. So um. So yeah,
(06:46):
so we're gonna start scooping now and filling up these
molto do you want I scoop and you can tell
these guys about harmon dairy and kind of how that
came to happen. So we used like and I think
part you're talking about this kind of culture of food
he or we use French spread chocolate their concountants on
the outside of our chocolate lab cheese. Um. And so
I think there's a lot of businesses in town food
(07:08):
producers who try to work with other food producers, like
we're making the base for sugar and snow gelatto, which
is a gelatto company here in town. Um. And then
I just, um, you know you're going to rub arb tonight,
John Flaar is one of the premier like supporters of
local and he buys so much local chiefe not just
from us, but from other producers and other you know,
vegetable farmers and meat farmers. And that is the important
(07:31):
part I think in the link is these people. It's
more expensive for a chef to do it. It takes
more of their time UM and takes more energy. And
for those people like John Flee or who do it
in such a sincere and committed way consistently all year round,
makes a huge difference in the culture in our ability
to survive UM. And there are others in Nashville and
ashe who just has that passion for it, and lots
of restaurants are supporting it. But uh, but yeah, a
(07:54):
little bit on our background out and if you want
too much of that, absolutely yeah. So, uh, we were
an artist and cheesemaker, meaning we were working with farms
and buying milk and bring it here to our creamery.
We're just so a few miles outside of Asheville. That's
going on, a few miles out of Asheville, and we
only have two acres, so we didn't have room for animals.
But we started working with a dairy down in Polk County.
(08:15):
It's a second generation, two gentlemen who have been farming
it all their lives, are born and raised there and
they wanted to see the farm continue ad A lot
of dairy farms this time at this at this point
in time are going out of business and so they
approached us about the possibility would we consider buying the
farm UM and it was a They have beautiful, rolling
(08:36):
green pastures and amazing herd of cows, and we just
didn't think it was possible, but they had a commitment
to continuing on as a dairy that they helped make
it possible. We had some other friends come on board
with us and UH who helped us buy the farm.
And now we're transitioning UH into the new space, which
is underground aging sellers. We have square feet of that
(08:58):
square feet of production space and it really change. We're
going to change from a traditional dairy to a seasonal
so we'll be making cheese and milking cows only seven
or eight months out of the year and try to
all the cows will be on the same lactation. You
can start to work with the milk in a different
way where different seasonality can come through in a way
that we haven't been doing. We kind of made the
(09:18):
same cheese is all year round. So we're really looking
forward to embracing that. And I think being here in
Asheville and having those people and restaurants and customers that
appreciate and can really see the evolution and why that
matters and what that means beyond you know, the transaction
at the counter is pretty exciting. And I don't know
how many places around the country we could be and
(09:38):
get that kind of support to do what we're doing. So, yeah,
what kind of flavors do you guys get out of
here out of your cows that you think are specific
to to your herds or your dairy And I think
right now we're making one raw milk cheese and that
is our bare wallow. And I think, Um, So, the
Polk County is located and what's called isothermal belt of
the Apple Achan, So it's between the mountains and kind
(10:01):
of the Piedmont the flat land, and so it's warmer there,
there's longer growing season, um and uh, and it's milder,
so uh, you get you know, really lush, rich pastures
and grasslands. And I think a lot of that comes
through the milk and how these animals are managed um,
and we're going to try and intensify that too with
the shift of seasonal but also moving the cows um
(10:24):
and mint because right now they're being turned out on
a hundred forty four acres pretty much, but we want
to break that up and try and push them into
and maybe plant some different grasses. But I think it
brings this grassiness through that. You can definitely some meatiness
and some that you just really don't get m from
pasteurized cheese. And I think it is specific to our
farm a little bit um, but anyway, maybe not. Yeah.
(10:46):
So so our current I can show you futility is
a ten by ten room above ground, um, you know,
and very lots of cheesemakers do it that way. But
all of our cheeses are being aged in that space.
So that means our wash rhyme, which needs a really
humid environment, and this cheese, which wants a dryer environment,
in our cheddar, which is closer to the dryer, and
they're all in one space. And when you try to
make everybody happy anywhere in life, nobody's really happy. So
(11:09):
we have four sellers that are dedicated. We'll have a
cheddar cave just for the cheddar and and this fair wallow.
Then we'll have a red cave where we do our
wash rind are kind of stinky cheese with a chocolate
from French Broad Chocolate Lounge. And we think that having
that higher humidity, being able to control it specifically for
that cheese, um, and you know, the temperature, to really
being able to dial it in exactly. Um, we'll make
(11:31):
a big difference in kind of our consistency and quality
of the cheese. And we can really emphasize more of
what we're going for. Uh, because some of the things
that you want to come through don't come through as
much as you'd like because they're in the wrong environment
for aging. So being able to find that specific situation,
also having the space to age it out. Right now
we're aging in the small room and we just can't
hold onto stuff for very long. Um. So as it
(11:55):
as we evolve and fill those caves up and hopefully
it can get things out six or eight or twelve months,
the just the character will really become much more prominent
than it is right now. Um. And it's still good cheese,
but it will be even better. We have some more
of an interview for you, but first we have a
quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back.
(12:24):
Thank you sponsor. Let's get back to it. Like she's
making us out, this a little bit behind other areas
like New England and California, and I feel like we're
kind of about the front edge of these people coming
forward to do things in a more traditional way beyond
just making cheese, but really paying attention to the seasonality
of the milk and the process and really getting into
(12:47):
the deep science of cheese making to make something really spectacular.
So we're excited about that. Um But I mean we've
had a lot of connections with a lot of different
people who's been fantastic, um, you know, in terms of
giving as guidance, cow maintenance and cheese help and phone
calls and help and why how do we do our
agent cave? And there's been a lot of resources to
(13:07):
do that reached out. So I feel like there's a
community behind us locally and wider that that wants to
see the succeeds. So that's amazing. It's smart. Uh. Yeah,
everyone keeps talking about how little competition there is. I
would disagree with that. No, no, no, I don't mean
it a bad way. I think competition is a good way,
in a very good way. Um, you're not gonna make
(13:29):
the best product you can make if you're the only
one in the marketplace. So I think it's very healthy
to have that competition. Um. And maybe they mean competition
and they you know, friendly or yeah whatever, And I
think people are friendly, and I think that um for
the most part, you know, you always got a mad apple.
But um, I think that competition is critical for for
forcing everybody to do the best job they can and
(13:50):
be efficient as farmers or cheese producers and try and
provide good quality, wealth raised and maintain food at a
fair price. And if there's no competition and you're the
only one in the marketplace, then that's not gonna happen.
So I think competition is good and I think there's
a lot of it in Anashville. Um, you know, there's
six eight cheesemakers right here around Nashville, which is you know,
(14:12):
it's not that big of a town. But then again,
you look at Vermond and there's like forty in the
same area. So there's lots of room for more competition.
To just actual competition. But I think it's good and
I think everybody is kind of we're all in this
together kind of attitude, so so competition that way good. Yes, definitely,
(14:34):
Where did you want to keep hanging out? And I
just try to be yeah, oh, Kody does get warm
in here, as you guys well know. Thank you so
much for oh and this this is happening now, so
thing that lives on and we'll begin to put cutting
(14:54):
boards on them and press them in that way to
get that texture. And one thing that you could do
right now on it's take a lit off and you
can easily flip one of those to show them like
how quickly that even though normally we would press it
some more, but um uh, it should be we'll see
in another like five minutes after this part has been
(15:16):
had the chance to sit in the way, it will
be like you won't even be able to see the
outlines of the curd. It'll just be a solid, pillowy,
massive curd, probably five minutes after a little pressure on them,
just because there's so much heat in here. That's not typical,
like the cheddar curd is so hard and you solve
that in the vat you have to put a ton
of pressure, Like it takes two hours to get to
(15:37):
that point where it's just a solid mass. But this
because of the process, takes a very short time to
reach that same point in the process. But that's the
other thing too about she's making you know, most of
the recipes are relatively similar, but you have little tweaks
here and there, temperature changes, hold times, introducing water or
not washing the curd, and all of that can make
(15:58):
a drastic difference and the outcome, you know, so pretty amazing.
You are talking a little bit about the about the
science of cheese and how everyone is getting kind of
into into the knitting grity of that. Is that a
thing that you're starting to geek out about personally? Definitely?
I think, um, you know, in this environment where we
are as a small cheese mayb, we've been here for
(16:19):
ten years and we kind of didn't have the luxury
in the facilities and the opportunity to really do it
in a way that you could really break it down
and get down to those finer points and be you know,
really testing each batch to the point where you know
you can detect notes and having your whole staff do
it and really understand where your cheese is and how
(16:40):
it's changing. All of that is just where we're getting
to the point of being able to do that, um
and really get acquainted with it as it changes and
understand what's happening when it does change. Um. At this point,
we're just happy to make cheese and not lose our
minds and get it out the door. Uh. So more space,
(17:02):
the right kind of space um uh, the staff, and
the opportunity to sit down and evaluate what you're doing
and reflect on it in a way. We just haven't
had the time for the opportunity. It's going to be
a huge lead forward for us. So we are excited
about seeking out more about the science of it. And
it's kind of developing making a decision on a cheese
like we really like this, but we'd really like to
dial up some element of it. And how do we
(17:23):
do that? Is that a process or a you know,
different culture or you know, at a point at eight
of aging and making sure it gets to that point.
So that's where I think our cheesemaking goes from really
good to great. Um. But and we try to do
you can hear people out there laughing. Um. We try
to make people have that experience when they come here,
is that you know, you can buy good chees all around,
(17:44):
but to be able to come here talk to somebody
who maybe makes the cheese, and they can ask these
kind of questions about what's the process and how does
it happen, how does it work, where's your milk come from?
I think that's the whole story. I think of local
food is that in this interconnected world of you know,
your cell phone and being plugged in all the time,
there's all the kind of a lack of real connection
(18:04):
between people, and I think this is a framework where
people can be a part of a community and be
see that what they're doing and buying makes a difference.
It's not just something that ordered off the internet. Um.
And that that you're connected to a person who who
did this thing from cows so you can go look
at them in the field and there's no mystery and
what we're doing. So that's the cool thing I think
(18:25):
about local food is that it's as much about community
and building community and connections between people as it is
about actual food. Um. So anyway, anything else we we've
been We've been talking to a lot of people about
how Asheville has been changing over the past few years.
Um and and specifically in connection to like the beer scene.
(18:47):
I mean you said that you guys, you guys sore
nibs from French Broad Chocolates to to rind one of
your one of your cheeses. Do you have any other
kind of interplay between other places that are going on,
other things are going on in town, like draw inspiration
from them today, draw inspiration from you. I think definitely.
We've had, you know, different chefs say hey, could you
work on something like this? Um. You know, we do
(19:10):
try to incorporate other local products in when we can
into the cheesemaking, like the nibs um you know, working
with sugar and snowge alatta where we're making their base.
I think there's a lot of that um evolution. Uh,
that's an interplay that can definitely happen. And it's both.
I think the explosion of the beer stein and Asheville
is in some way it's definitely a blessing, but it's
also occurs. I mean, it's broad eye, ton of people here,
(19:32):
it's a great place to live, so I understand that,
um And it means more customers for us, But it
also means that this you know, world, little world of
Asheville is changing, um, and it's a lot more traffic,
it's a lot more people. Um. Housing is an issue.
A lot of things are happening around that that make
it kind of difficult. And it also makes it hard
to farm because it makes land very expensive. So that
(19:55):
thing that brought people here, this local food connection and
beer scen and whatnot, not so much the you're seen,
but some of that may go away because they can't
afford to be here anymore. So that's kind of the downside, um,
some of the downsides of that development. But it is
a focus on a great area where it's a great
place to live. But back to your original question, Yes,
I think it does open up the door for so
many inner connections between different businesses and for people to
(20:17):
really get creative with food and hey, how can I
I love this brewery? How can I use their beer
my product? And I know people are making like shampoo
out of beer and kinds of stuff. So so yeah,
and beer also brings with it money, so that's nice.
You'll you'll like money. Yes, how did Carmulita happen? Well, Um,
(20:41):
we had a lot of people coming to farmers markets, tourists,
and they're saying, oh my god, I want to bring
some of this home. But and we all had we
only had cheese for them to take, and they're like that,
I'm gonna be on a plane. I don't want to
deal with that. So I started to think about what
would be a product of a dairy based product that
could be shelf stable that I could get them say okay,
well this take this home with you. And that's how
a little bit I had heard of. Um, you know
(21:02):
the traditional cates of the goat smoke caramel sauce. Now
we make also the l out of the cow. But
it's it's just really it's a nice, rich, savory kind
of caramel. It's thick um and it and it just
doesn't have when you go to taste that and then
you go back to doing like something off the shelf
at the grocery store. Um, there's just no comparison in
(21:22):
terms of just the simplicity and the purity of what's
in there because it's sugar and milk and we cook
it for ten hours off over a flame. Um. But
we we came to it as a means of being
able to sell something to somebody who couldn't travel with
a perishable and but it became such a popular product
we just kept making in so and I love it.
It's great, good in your coffee, good as a dessert,
good Dishaunestman, So can you guys switched from like? How
(21:48):
and why? I suppose from goats to cows. We started
out as a goat producer. Only we were buying milk
fifty gallons one time a week from the goat dairy
in Statesville. We were able to source a little closer
as we got people realize we were here and we
were looking to buy goat milk. Um and are the
goat milks, and then we started also buying cow milks,
so pretty early we were doing both. Um U goat's
(22:10):
milk for production is about twice the price are more
than cow's milk. So there's the cost issue. Um, there's
availability issue. There's not very many most of the people
who are goat dairies are using all their own milks.
That they're not very many people selling it. There's only
one in the area that was and they were kind
of deciding to phase out. There are some consistency issues,
and we just said and at that very same time,
I think it's kind of the universe talking to us.
(22:31):
The harmon said, hey, have you ever thought about, you know,
buying We were looking at expanding anyway, but buying this dairy.
And that's when we when we decided that this just
looks like this is going to happen. We made that
switch fully and committed to cows, which I really like. Um,
I would like nabe as we developed in the farm
as a destination develops that we may add back a
(22:52):
small herd and just make small amounts just to sell
from our stores. Um. But and we'll have a store
up here which will stay, and they will also have
a store down the arm. But both of those we
want to try and emphasize kind of the experience and whatnot.
But yeah, um, it was both both. We have to change.
The cost was a factor, and um, we had this
opportunity to switch over to cow and so we did so.
(23:14):
Um and were you only recently able to start doing
a raw milk cheese a raw milk cheese for four
or five years? So what was there a legal issue?
I know that in some places there's been legal quandary
about pasteurization. There's a lot of issues surrounding that, and
a lot of controversy in the cheese world. There's a
lot of debate from the regulators down about what raw
(23:38):
milk should be pasteurized. UM. Now, this one of the
reasons I'm comfortable making this and we chose to make
this a raw milk cheese because it is a hard
aged cheese with a low moisture content. You know, it
can happen anywhere. Um, but if you have a pathogen,
it really likes a moist environment, and some of those
higher moisture cheeses. UM. Right now, until we were really
(23:59):
like dialed in and then know everything about our milk,
I wouldn't even attempt to make a raw milk cheese
of that style. UM. Like a like a gooey washed
rind that I love. Um, that's just barely get into
sixty days before it's almost aging out. You know, with
less sugar and less moisture in these harder age cheeses,
it's a lot less of a risk. UM. So there
(24:20):
is a lot of debate. You've always in the past
ten years since I've been doing it, You've always been
able to make as long as you age it sixty days,
it's kind of a blanket rule. But there are people
who are advocating that it shouldn't be a blanket rule.
It should be based on moisture content. But then there's
the issue of how do you implement that kind of change. Um. So,
so we do make this, we have made it for
a while. We may add one of our blue cheeses
in as a raw milk cheese, but but I think
(24:43):
very carefully about that, and you know, both safety and
you know, making sure that we are very informed about
every step of our process and our milk and having
analyzed before I would even think about making a riskier
class of cheese a raw milk cheese. I mean, you know,
bacteria are responsible for all of this, but not all
of them are great bacteria makes it all happen, and um,
(25:07):
you know it's why cheese and happen. It's such a
great environment for bacteria and usually that's all good, and
you control that process for the good bacteria and have
markers along the way to make sure you're meeting those
food safety goals. But it also makes it a good
environment for other things to happen if you're not controlling
things very carefully. So yeah, um, is there any kind
(25:28):
of cheese that you guys are not currently producing that
you really want to get into. Uh, well, we just started, um,
and we had to manage it in a very different ways,
so we didn't want to bring it into our aging
room here. We have a dedicated aging room down there
for blue cheese. So we developed a really lovely, unctuous
kind of creamy campusola style blue, and then we want
to have a second blue that's more your sweet, crumbly
(25:51):
kind of so two very different kinds. So that's what
we'll be working on developing. We have the unctuous, you know,
lovely blue and then that different Sure we haven't started
working on that. Once we get into the new facility,
will do that. So that style we're gonna really focus
on doing. And then um, just really dialing in the
alpine style on the cheddar and we're adding ice cream
(26:11):
production down there eventually. Yeah, so a lot of people
come in and they have their kids and mom and
dad want to wine and cheese plate, but kids wanted
ice cream coat, so we want to be able to
provide that and because again that's part of just that destination.
But yeah, do you have a favorite? Is that like
asking if you have a favorite child. No, I mean
it's funny. I I like, uh, just it depends on
(26:36):
what you're using it for. You know, if you're just
gonna sit down and have a glass of nine, a
little crusty bread and definitely going for the blue cheese. Um.
You know, if you're gonna shave it onto a salad,
I might even go with barwalla or something like that.
You know, if you're gonna melt it it Just I
think it's more about you know what you're using it
for versus a favorite. But yeah, so many to choose, frown.
It's such a huge world of cheese out there produlming.
(27:00):
Sometimes I have that moment like freak like whenever I
go to buy cheese, like where I'm just standing in
front of it and I'm like, oh no, oh life,
Oh why am I here? Cheese monger is important, and
especially for a small artist and cheese, you need that
advocate there at the retail point and who can talk
about and explain it and understand where these cheese are
(27:22):
coming from, especially the new American varieties are emerging and
may not have like this whole you know history behind them. Um.
To have that passionate person talking about it makes all
the difference when you're standing there, and and then it
also helps you to get out of your comfort zone.
Instead of I always find three or whatever, you can
try something else, you know. So yeah, and I'm really
(27:42):
good at that means super excited about cheese. Yes, you're
totally bored by it. I can tell like, okay, come on,
in a different way. He's much better at talking about it,
making it sounds very exciting. I'm just excited. Um, how
(28:02):
did you get into making cheese? Uh? The animals brought
me into making cheese. I really wanted to be involved
in agriculture. Wasn't very good at growing things, really didn't
want to do the meat side. I'm not opposed to that,
but um, and then I started fooling around just at home,
and I really kind of fell in love with the
processes in a way. I used to do a lot
(28:22):
of baking. It's kind of a lot like baking in
a way. Um, and just do rise time and you're
proofing and adding your yees or whatever. Um. But anyway,
so we did that. I did that for a little
while and then I thought, well, I need to really
see if I want to do this so I prentice
out a goat day in southern Virginia and for six
months he'll go to make cheese, delivered it from the store.
And I was like, this is awesome. Um, and I
(28:43):
wasn't being paid. So if you can work that long,
work that hard, not get paid and still be happy
at the end of the six months, and then I
think you found something that you want to do. And
I'm from there. I just built on experience and took
classes and talk to consultants and you know, then I
started as a cheesemaker at BlackBerry Farm and milking sheep
and making cheese over there there. And then it was
time we either need to commit to doing this ourselves
(29:03):
and building our own program or staying somewhere and being committed.
And we thought it was time to just get out there.
So here we are. We built this building for this problem,
this purpose, not really knowing all we had finished with
this room and then and then everything else is just
kind of in peace together. But it worked. It worked out.
When we started, the inspector said do not get started
(29:25):
unless you have a milk source, because I didn't have
anywhere to even buy milk. And within like two weeks
before we're gonna get licensed. The inspector of all people
called me and said, well, there's a guy outside Staceville
who needs to sell some goat milk. So I'm like, okay,
I had to say. So that's how it started, and
then we just built from there. But one foot in
front of the other. Yeah, but I love it. And
(29:46):
that's the same thing too. Sorry is that coming back
full circle to the animals, because you know, I started
out with goats and working with goats, and I've worked
a lot of sheep and with horses, um, and then
I got away from it for the past ten years
since I've been stuck in here with the cheese all
the time. So now back to the farm. Um, we
have our own herd. We're managing that and getting into
everything about that, from birthing and calving and moving animals
(30:08):
around and you know, growing them at different stages and
understanding what they need and being hands on and outside
in the weather. I love So it's good to get
back to that. And I didn't really realize how much
I missed it. So for me, that's that's the kind
of the fun piece. And then this is the the creative,
exciting piece to see what you can make from from
those animals, and that concluded our tour of the production facility.
(30:32):
We do have that tasting reel for you and we
will get to that as soon as we get back
from one more quick break for a word from our sponsor,
and we're back, Thank you sponsor, and to the tasting.
(30:55):
Um So, let me tell you guys what's on the
please please Fromage blanc because we're kind of going in
order of age from Blong because our fresh cheese, so
Jen maybe talked a little bit about that transition from
doing goat and cow's milk to just cow's milk, So
this is a great it's basically made the same way
to chef, so it's a fresh cheese but made from
(31:15):
cow's milk, so trying to introduce that. But it's also
it's a great cheese because we can make it really quickly,
turned over cash float, etcetera. Also really delicious. And then
we've got some strawberry rubard jam made in Waynesville, just
on the other side of Asheville, and we have a
little Feta um so again traditionally a goat or sheep's
milk cheese that we've kind of taken a recipe and
applied to the cow's milk with some honey chocolate lab
(31:39):
kind of our signature cheese. Jen talked about that one.
You guys want to see French products, right, So this
is coated in their cocoa nibs, washed around a little
bit funky driver's short as our cheddar. And then barre
Wall is the when you guys saw me being made
down there, So that is that product that you guys
saw about three and a half months later. And so
(32:00):
Jen talked a little bit about sort of the new
aging environment and how those are going to impact where
we're tasting. So the chocolate lab is just gonna have
a little bit of a moist environment be able to
really kind of lawesome, get a little funkier. And then
these two you're about two and a half months and
three months. I love to see those in like twelve months.
So we're super excited to see everything go. So sorry,
(32:21):
that was a lot of info. No, that's no, a
lot of info is the very best um you're doing.
You're doing my job for me, which I love. So
did you guys, so please enjoy. Do you guys have
any other questions about cheese itself? What we're doing here,
or um, do you have a do you have a
favorite part of the process that you neared out about? Um,
(32:44):
the whole because everything is so different. I think the
whole process. It's just crazy to me that and you
guys are gonna try everything on this plate is the
same three ingredients. It's bacteria, milk, consult and just through
like process and the right environment and taking care of
it and putting it, you know, treating it in different ways,
you get five completely different flavors. So it's so cool
(33:06):
to see like this in liquid milk come in and
then go into the vat and then like four hours
later it's this whole new thing. And then four months
later it's this whole new thing, and ten months later.
So I think I nerd out about just the alchemy
that happens just through you know, you were taking this
ancient essentially, this ancient thing that people came up with
for preservation and just being able to keep that going,
(33:28):
and it's just yeah, I kind of marvel it, like
how people came up with this as a way to
preserve your milk. Like I think I would not have
done that. I would have just dumped it down and
just got new milk the next day. But it's such
a cool, um cool like historical thing with so much
significance historic but whatever were able to like keep that going.
I onta just a lot of very part of it.
Why Asheville, Why this area, Why these cows, why the
(33:52):
cultures that you use? Um? Are you? Are you? And
that's a really big question. I'm sorry that there's a
lot of I think, for for us, for company wide,
I think, um, I just love that the majority of
the majority of the folks that live here are sort
of you know, here for a reason. There's this communal
part of nature, Like they love that nature in the
(34:14):
environment definitely like part of what Ashville makes Ashville Ashville.
So I think anybody that really chooses to live here
is gonna at least send some connection to that. Like
it's not and not the one way is wrong or
the other, but like it's not like living in a
big city, for sure, but it's not like living in
the middle of the woods. So it's just this sort
of connection with people and the environment and nature. Um.
So I think that's why it's really cool for us
(34:35):
to be here, and we have to share that with
people that are really into it. Is there any kind
of cheese that you are interested in getting into in
the future with the company. Yeah. I think we saw
a lot of success when we used to new Coat Smoke,
and we do some soft ripe and like blimmy Ryan
stuff like in the like More Valley or like things
in the Brie or fresh French goat cheese family. I
(34:58):
think those are super popular. There also cheeses that are
you know, small format, people know that people love them,
So I think there'd be something, you know, down the
road once we get all of our stuff under control,
is something that I'd love to see is kind of
get into it. Um. But I'm pretty excited about the
wide like you're gonna you're gonna taste that. These are
pretty five, pretty desparate flavors, and I think it's pretty
cool that we're able to do that in just one environment,
(35:20):
one road, and I'm excited to see where that goes,
just with what we have and really increasing the quality
insistency about all of those. But some day it's some
literally gooey and kind of sky and it's my favorite
kind of thing. That was gonna be my next question? Yeah,
well was it? What was my favorite it changes all
(35:42):
the time. Like you know, I'll have like a taste
for something someday I would say, like the overreaching, this style,
so greier, those things that are just really dense and savory.
I like in every aspect of my food eating life,
Like savory is the thing, Like something's like sour supost
like sweet savory, just one things you're just like, Ah,
so I think that general family of cheese, but also
(36:05):
I love this sort of gooey and a little bit funky,
and I love the fresh and I just love I
think there's a lot of answers without question. Um, I've
changed from day to day. Right now, I just tried
the Farewell. I mean it's great. It's only two and
a half months old, but it's amazing, and I'm so excited,
Like I taste that, I'm like, this is great. But
then I get to think about in a year, we're
gonna have this amazing space that's built just for this cheese,
(36:27):
that we're gonna be able to see it really reach
its potential. So there's an emotional sign to that one,
I guess. But yeah, that's my favorite right now. Are
you from this region? No, this is not a North
Carolina accent. I'm from northern Indiana kind of like Gary,
(36:48):
kind of on the other side of the border from Chicago,
so up in that area a little bit. What are
you here? So I went to school in Michigan, that's right,
kind of fell in love with cheese. I went at
an internship at a really cool it especially store where
I went to school, and then moved to Nashville. I
got a job with Whole Foods um worked in the cheese,
started just cutting cheese and then started buying keys. And
(37:10):
then I moved around open a few are worked for
a few stores, and then it moved to Asheville to
open a store and two thousand. Yeah, because the fourteens
I came here, um, and it was awesome, Like I
got to do so many cool things for that company
and learn so many things. They paid for my certification,
which is incredible. Um. And then I just got to
know Jenn and Andy. And then once they bought the
dairy farm, kind of we just talked a little bit
(37:32):
and then came on board and was super like such
slight the ideal opportunity and the ideal time to come
in and like be a part of this amazing thing.
And transformation and super cool. It's a really great like
community of collaboration in Ashville. Everyone we've talked to you
so far that's kind of spoken about that, So it's
kind of cool, Like I don't think that's I mean,
(37:53):
I guess the beer community is pretty it's always like that,
and that's such a big part of Ashville. So I
think I think, like per centage wise, it's such a
big part of the quote unquote artistan community here in
Nashville that I think that's sort of led over and
people are more open to collaboration because I feel like
it's not always the case everywhere you go. Um So,
I think that's very something I think that we're grateful
(38:14):
to the beer community is like they're so open to
helping out with each other and lifting each other up
that I think all the restaurants and all the uh
cheesemakers and all the just the little producers are all
about working together for everything out or not, you know,
more collaboration, less competition. Um As, I love like this whole.
It seems that I love that people are excited about cheese,
(38:39):
like consumers are excited about how you make your cheeses,
and that they know where the cows are, and like,
I love that the consumer is kind of koding more
connected to the products. And I'm just think that's really true.
How do you do? And I think it's you know,
it's been happening for the last like fifteen ten years.
Where do you Where do you guys live at Atlanta?
So I mean you've seen there a lot of you know,
(39:01):
Star provisions down there has been like they've got an
awesome cheese counter, um, but you know, the artist and
cheese has just become this and it's kind of grown
with all other sectors of the food. Like I think
beer was, wine was huge, you know, that became a
much more in the consciousness, and then beer and then cheese.
And I think it's just kind of a rising tide situation.
And I think that's just generally sort of in the
zeitgeist of you know, people and they're eating habits um.
(39:23):
But for us that we're like putting in all this
work and like you say, it's sweaty back there, and
it's a lot of work. And it's a lot of
especially for me, I do like not nearly as much
work as Jen and Nandy, like Holly milk and building
this new thing. I like working so much, but to
just be able to like connect to people that really
care about what you're doing and appreciate it and then
keep coming back and sharing that story. And I think
(39:44):
that's not only like financially gonna be really great for us,
but also like spiritually, like we're gonna be, you know,
be a part of this thing that matters to people. Yeah, yeah, awesome, awesome, guys, Well,
please eat, I'm here. If you have any more questions,
there is there anything else that we should have asked
you we have, Um, we'll just ruminate. Yeah, sort of
(40:09):
a dairy joke. Let me know if anything else. All right,
I'm just going to start grabbing stuff. Can't make a clee? Yeah, okay,
what when are you tasting now? Annie? I don't know
the one that we just saw being made and it
looks completely different after three months? Is it three months
(40:33):
after a little aging? I think it is only three months? Yeah, firm,
very savory. Yep, it's good. That's my review, Annie. I
love your food reviews recuses. Any would just be like good. Yep.
(40:56):
I feel like I'll have more welcome to my mouth blazes. Um,
I feel like all them more to say about it
after I try other ones. Um, but it's really rich
um and it's got The cheese is a little bit yellowed.
I suspect that after it's gone through a little bit
more aging, um, the Batacre team will really come out
(41:16):
from the from the weed, little fat particles in there
interned in a nice deep orange because it's it's got
just a just a twinge of of just that like
like deep savor nous that you get from like an
old aged cheese that just tastes like it's almost mouth
puckering and how savory it is, Like you you just
(41:37):
want to drink it with a red wine. You'd want
to drink the cheese with a red wine. That's what
you want to do. Yeah, this is why we're rolling
a bit in the wine. What what else did you
just try to move? This is the one they're known for.
The chocolate. The nives are from the French broad French
(42:01):
chocolate my gri um. So it's a coating on the
outside and it is very unique and very good. I
can see where they are known for it. The texture
is much softer than I thought it would be looking
at it, but it's got a nice like almost cheddar,
but like much milder and funkier kind of thing. Mm hmm.
(42:25):
I just try to lease the cheddar. Um, and it's
so smooth. I We've talked a lot about dogs on
this trip, as we usually do whenever Dylan and I
are in a room together. And I feel like the
experience of eating this cheddar is like the experience of
petting a soft dog, like a nice golden retriever. Um. Yeah,
(42:50):
and it is. It is so striking how different how
diver they taste. Um. But I know it sounds obvious
when you think about it, but um, it's so much
sharper than the weer style. Yeah. Oh that is so funky.
H oh when it's solved this one. Um, I just
took a bite of the I want the one with
the chocolate, nip with the with the nip, oh, and
(43:15):
that one. The chocolate didn't hit me until the very
the very back of the bite of cheese. Um, which
provides a really interesting finish, because the upfront is just
all of this, Like it's like drinking a funky beer.
Like it's it's just like funk and mineral and weirdness,
Like you can taste the cave it's a taste of
(43:39):
rainbow taste for cave. Yeah, I mean that they need
to trademark that. I don't know when we're not literally
every one's marketing too, we would be the best at it.
And I don't remember what this was supposed to be.
(44:02):
I think he said it was just like a soft
ripened because that one was like this Chevra and beta.
It's better. That is absolutely the texture that I'm experiencing.
M Oh, that is so good. And it's and it
(44:24):
has a little bit more funk than I feel like
Fetta usually has a lot of fettas that I've had.
It's sort of like clean and bright and like maybe
even a little bit lemony. But what I'm getting from
that is it's very how like kind of fun to it,
which is really nice. Yeah, it's got a good like
(44:45):
almost curd like springing this. Yeah, they kind of squeaked them,
do you yea, which I liked. I think I mostly
just tasted cracker right there. Sounds really interesting. I'm excited
to hear what you think that good. I might still
just be tasting cracker. I'm trying to figure out what
I've got right Yeah, yeah, Um, the fresh cheese that
(45:11):
they have on here or least aged. I think it's
a Famosa blong style. Um. It's almost more of a
texture than a flavor. It does have a little bit
of that like bright lemony kind of thing that I
was talking about the feta not having um like I
want to layer it with like maserrated strawberries. It is
(45:33):
really good with the strawberry jam. I haven't tried anything
with the jam yet. I've been We've been wasting my life.
Come on, learn one type quality not really reads out
the auto m. Yeah, these are good. I like it.
(45:58):
We like it. That brings us to the end of
our interview plus tasting experience. I hope that no one's
so furious they can't try the cheese. But oh, you
can try the cheese. You can buy their non perishable
products online year round, and their cheeses during the colder
(46:21):
months at Asheville Cheese dot Com or just google looking
Glass Creeper right, they'll they'll pop right up. One of
the things that you can buy year round is their
car moulita, which we never got to try and I
forgot to buy a jar of and I'm so mad
at myself because it's like a Dulca delche thing if
that wasn't clear during the interview, and oh it sounds
I love a Dulci de leche. I canself, Oh yes
(46:47):
you should, yes, you should. Um. Yeah, they were such
a delight to talk to you. And any chance to
try cheese yeah yeah. And and also I um, I
really connected in my brain when when I was reading
through our interview transcript recently we had just done that
career episode and so talking about the style of cheese
(47:08):
where you're like, it needs to be this type so
that when you are marching cows up a mountain and
then marching cheese down a mountain, you can handle all
of that. And I was like, oh, it all connects,
it does it does. Anyway, if you have any cheese
stories to share with us, goodness, we would love to
hear them. Oh you know we would a local creamery's perhaps, yes,
(47:32):
And you can share those via email at hello at
savor pod dot com. You can also get in touch
by a social media We are on Twitter, Facebook, and
Instagram at savor pod. We do hope to hear from you.
Savor is a production of I Heart Radio and Stuff Media.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. Thank you, as always to
(47:55):
our superproducers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you
for listening, and we hope that lots more good things
are coming your way.
Hello, and welcome to save a prediction of I Heart
Radio and Stuff Media. I'm Annies and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum.
And today we have an interview for you about cheese,
an interview plus tasting. Oh yes, absolutely so all right.
When we were in the Asheville area last year, goodness
was it so long ago? Heck? Um, we visited Looking
(00:29):
Glass Creamery, which is out in Fairview, North Carolina. It's
a dairy farm and cheesemaker. Yes, and it was wonderful
and we got to wear hairnets and these like lab
coat looking things. It was the coolest hairnet I think
we've ever We've had some hairnet experience at this point.
And we took a very goofy picture together. Yeah. Um
(00:49):
and yeah. We got to see some making of cheese
and we got to eat some of the cheese that
we saw the process of making. Yeah it was. It
was wonderful and loud and very warm. Um it was.
It was the most up close and personal I have
been to the making of giant heck and wheels of
cheese and oh it was. It was wonderful. Um. Yeah.
(01:10):
We we spoke with Jen Perkins, who is the co
owner and cheesemaker, they're about the making process. Uh. We
kind of hit away in this little like cold closets face.
We were all lying, Yeah, I I got I got
so warm that she saw like I was. I was
just sweating buckets. And I think she started to notice
(01:32):
my eyes kind of glazing over in the middle of
the interview, and she was like, would you like to
see our cheese seller where it is several degrees cooler
than out here, where it is really heck and warm,
And um, I was so grateful for the opportunity, not faint. Yes, yes,
Jen was amazing, and then yes afterwards, um Sean Stanley,
their retail manager, who was also a certified cheese professional,
(01:55):
which is like a smaller of cheeses. Uh huh, Yeah,
he guided us through the tasting of of a board
of their cheeses, and in classic SAB style, we were like,
we we like them, these taste good, these are all great,
no further comment. Hopefully we said a couple more interesting
(02:15):
things than that, but yes, yes, I think we did.
And one of the things that we found interesting about
Asheville at large is how many people kind of work
together and one of the most popular cheeses, um from
this dairy farm is chocolate lab which they use at well,
they work together with French Broad Chocolates, who we also
(02:37):
had an interview with while we were there. Yeah, they
they use cocoa nibs on the rind of the cheese
and it is so good, oh goodness. And so without
further ado, we will get to the interview and the
cheese tasting. What. Yes, it's gonna get all thought from
(03:00):
here around the pretty quick or potter, I say, um,
gonna mean to give you a little orientation what we'll
make you hear? And yeah, I which So this is
our very wallow cheese, which is a America Good Food
Ward winner for two thousand and eighteen. Is an Alpine
style and sean are sorted by chief professional can tell
you more about sensory characteristics, but in terms of production,
(03:21):
part of what makes an Alpine is we cooked the
herd really warm. You can see on the control it's
a hundred twenty degrees um. And this is a raw
milk cheese too. So we started pretty late today at
ten am. It's two o'clock and we're ready to scoop,
which is an awesome bonus of rawmup cheese. Is that
if the process goes a lot faster. But being an
alpine cheese, we want it sitting in a body of
warm way so that when we take that curd out
(03:43):
and scoop it in, it knits together really quickly and
becomes a soft, pillowy mass. UM. So cooking it as
fast as we did, and then we'll also press it,
that's gonna yield a long term like a dryer style cheese. UM.
But it still has some flexibility in the paste and
it's uh, but it's really I think a raw milk cheese.
It gets a lot of where our belk is coming from,
kind of grassy nuttiness. You get a lot of character. Uh.
(04:07):
And once we get into our new cage where we
can really age it out where it needs to be
at six eight or twelve or even eighteen months. It
transforms every couple of months every time we try it.
So we're excited about that. UM. But yeah, so you
have questions about this. What we're doing right now is
draining the way to the level of the curd. Since
it it's pretty warm, then we're going to start pretty
immediately scooping the curd into these wheels, so it came
(04:28):
exactly at the right time. Very exciting part of cheese making.
Um and uh. And we'll fill these up and they'll
hang out in here, we'll press them in the way
with a small amount of weight, we'll flip them and
then we'll press them in our press for a longer
amount of time overnight. Um. But yeah, So what questions
can I answer? Um? Is this a traditional process that
(04:52):
you kind of like? How how did you guys arrive
at a specific process that you're using. That's part of
what makes an Alpine cheese is that it is pressed underway,
is what they say. Um. So a lot of times
they all sweep the curd and put it back in
the vat and have more way than we have on
this table, Like this is what works for us, and
it yields a really nice cheese. And um, so that's
kind of the nice thing. Every place you go, they're
gonna do it a little bit different, maybe tweak the
(05:14):
traditional part to to come to make something that is
of their own. So we fill up our draining table
with whey. So it's probably a third of the way
up the mold, but it's enough to keep the curd
super warm and the lids. We have that sitting in
the way so they stay warm, so it's still retains
that extra heat which makes that curd really together and
have a dense paste. So Sean probably had some things.
(05:38):
So she said Alpine style cheese that's made in the
same way as those cheeses from like the frenchance with Alps,
like career compte. So it's and the point they're like,
why we want to really dense cheese is that we're
taking the cows up to the top of the mountain
and then eventually we're gonna bring the cheese back down.
So they wanted to get this really compact, dense collection
of nutrients that we're in the milk because they're gonna
(05:59):
have to eat that at the us the winner, and
then bring the cows back up to the spring. So
that's how they came to this process was they wanted
to like get as much stuff out of there and
into the cheese as they could because they didn't want
to carry like, you know, fresh cheese. You would just
have chuckles of that's take back down. He's taking these
really dense compact meals a lot less when you always
sorry you can't see, but to speak to Chan's point
(06:22):
is this curd is really almost like rice grains even smaller.
It's really tiny and curd um you know from a
softer cheese is going to be much bigger. So we've
cooked this and cut it really small to force that
way out to help make that dense paste that Shamas
take talking about. So and you can see too it
like you just with hand pressure, it's so warm it
comes together in a mass really easily. So um. So yeah,
(06:46):
so we're gonna start scooping now and filling up these
molto do you want I scoop and you can tell
these guys about harmon dairy and kind of how that
came to happen. So we used like and I think
part you're talking about this kind of culture of food
he or we use French spread chocolate their concountants on
the outside of our chocolate lab cheese. Um. And so
I think there's a lot of businesses in town food
(07:08):
producers who try to work with other food producers, like
we're making the base for sugar and snow gelatto, which
is a gelatto company here in town. Um. And then
I just, um, you know you're going to rub arb tonight,
John Flaar is one of the premier like supporters of
local and he buys so much local chiefe not just
from us, but from other producers and other you know,
vegetable farmers and meat farmers. And that is the important
(07:31):
part I think in the link is these people. It's
more expensive for a chef to do it. It takes
more of their time UM and takes more energy. And
for those people like John Flee or who do it
in such a sincere and committed way consistently all year round,
makes a huge difference in the culture in our ability
to survive UM. And there are others in Nashville and
ashe who just has that passion for it, and lots
of restaurants are supporting it. But uh, but yeah, a
(07:54):
little bit on our background out and if you want
too much of that, absolutely yeah. So, uh, we were
an artist and cheesemaker, meaning we were working with farms
and buying milk and bring it here to our creamery.
We're just so a few miles outside of Asheville. That's
going on, a few miles out of Asheville, and we
only have two acres, so we didn't have room for animals.
But we started working with a dairy down in Polk County.
(08:15):
It's a second generation, two gentlemen who have been farming
it all their lives, are born and raised there and
they wanted to see the farm continue ad A lot
of dairy farms this time at this at this point
in time are going out of business and so they
approached us about the possibility would we consider buying the
farm UM and it was a They have beautiful, rolling
(08:36):
green pastures and amazing herd of cows, and we just
didn't think it was possible, but they had a commitment
to continuing on as a dairy that they helped make
it possible. We had some other friends come on board
with us and UH who helped us buy the farm.
And now we're transitioning UH into the new space, which
is underground aging sellers. We have square feet of that
(08:58):
square feet of production space and it really change. We're
going to change from a traditional dairy to a seasonal
so we'll be making cheese and milking cows only seven
or eight months out of the year and try to
all the cows will be on the same lactation. You
can start to work with the milk in a different
way where different seasonality can come through in a way
that we haven't been doing. We kind of made the
(09:18):
same cheese is all year round. So we're really looking
forward to embracing that. And I think being here in
Asheville and having those people and restaurants and customers that
appreciate and can really see the evolution and why that
matters and what that means beyond you know, the transaction
at the counter is pretty exciting. And I don't know
how many places around the country we could be and
(09:38):
get that kind of support to do what we're doing. So, yeah,
what kind of flavors do you guys get out of
here out of your cows that you think are specific
to to your herds or your dairy And I think
right now we're making one raw milk cheese and that
is our bare wallow. And I think, Um, So, the
Polk County is located and what's called isothermal belt of
the Apple Achan, So it's between the mountains and kind
(10:01):
of the Piedmont the flat land, and so it's warmer there,
there's longer growing season, um and uh, and it's milder,
so uh, you get you know, really lush, rich pastures
and grasslands. And I think a lot of that comes
through the milk and how these animals are managed um,
and we're going to try and intensify that too with
the shift of seasonal but also moving the cows um
(10:24):
and mint because right now they're being turned out on
a hundred forty four acres pretty much, but we want
to break that up and try and push them into
and maybe plant some different grasses. But I think it
brings this grassiness through that. You can definitely some meatiness
and some that you just really don't get m from
pasteurized cheese. And I think it is specific to our
farm a little bit um, but anyway, maybe not. Yeah.
(10:46):
So so our current I can show you futility is
a ten by ten room above ground, um, you know,
and very lots of cheesemakers do it that way. But
all of our cheeses are being aged in that space.
So that means our wash rhyme, which needs a really
humid environment, and this cheese, which wants a dryer environment,
in our cheddar, which is closer to the dryer, and
they're all in one space. And when you try to
make everybody happy anywhere in life, nobody's really happy. So
(11:09):
we have four sellers that are dedicated. We'll have a
cheddar cave just for the cheddar and and this fair wallow.
Then we'll have a red cave where we do our
wash rind are kind of stinky cheese with a chocolate
from French Broad Chocolate Lounge. And we think that having
that higher humidity, being able to control it specifically for
that cheese, um, and you know, the temperature, to really
being able to dial it in exactly. Um, we'll make
(11:31):
a big difference in kind of our consistency and quality
of the cheese. And we can really emphasize more of
what we're going for. Uh, because some of the things
that you want to come through don't come through as
much as you'd like because they're in the wrong environment
for aging. So being able to find that specific situation,
also having the space to age it out. Right now
we're aging in the small room and we just can't
hold onto stuff for very long. Um. So as it
(11:55):
as we evolve and fill those caves up and hopefully
it can get things out six or eight or twelve months,
the just the character will really become much more prominent
than it is right now. Um. And it's still good cheese,
but it will be even better. We have some more
of an interview for you, but first we have a
quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back.
(12:24):
Thank you sponsor. Let's get back to it. Like she's
making us out, this a little bit behind other areas
like New England and California, and I feel like we're
kind of about the front edge of these people coming
forward to do things in a more traditional way beyond
just making cheese, but really paying attention to the seasonality
of the milk and the process and really getting into
(12:47):
the deep science of cheese making to make something really spectacular.
So we're excited about that. Um But I mean we've
had a lot of connections with a lot of different
people who's been fantastic, um, you know, in terms of
giving as guidance, cow maintenance and cheese help and phone
calls and help and why how do we do our
agent cave? And there's been a lot of resources to
(13:07):
do that reached out. So I feel like there's a
community behind us locally and wider that that wants to
see the succeeds. So that's amazing. It's smart. Uh. Yeah,
everyone keeps talking about how little competition there is. I
would disagree with that. No, no, no, I don't mean
it a bad way. I think competition is a good way,
in a very good way. Um, you're not gonna make
(13:29):
the best product you can make if you're the only
one in the marketplace. So I think it's very healthy
to have that competition. Um. And maybe they mean competition
and they you know, friendly or yeah whatever, And I
think people are friendly, and I think that um for
the most part, you know, you always got a mad apple.
But um, I think that competition is critical for for
forcing everybody to do the best job they can and
(13:50):
be efficient as farmers or cheese producers and try and
provide good quality, wealth raised and maintain food at a
fair price. And if there's no competition and you're the
only one in the marketplace, then that's not gonna happen.
So I think competition is good and I think there's
a lot of it in Anashville. Um, you know, there's
six eight cheesemakers right here around Nashville, which is you know,
(14:12):
it's not that big of a town. But then again,
you look at Vermond and there's like forty in the
same area. So there's lots of room for more competition.
To just actual competition. But I think it's good and
I think everybody is kind of we're all in this
together kind of attitude, so so competition that way good. Yes, definitely,
(14:34):
Where did you want to keep hanging out? And I
just try to be yeah, oh, Kody does get warm
in here, as you guys well know. Thank you so
much for oh and this this is happening now, so
thing that lives on and we'll begin to put cutting
(14:54):
boards on them and press them in that way to
get that texture. And one thing that you could do
right now on it's take a lit off and you
can easily flip one of those to show them like
how quickly that even though normally we would press it
some more, but um uh, it should be we'll see
in another like five minutes after this part has been
(15:16):
had the chance to sit in the way, it will
be like you won't even be able to see the
outlines of the curd. It'll just be a solid, pillowy,
massive curd, probably five minutes after a little pressure on them,
just because there's so much heat in here. That's not typical,
like the cheddar curd is so hard and you solve
that in the vat you have to put a ton
of pressure, Like it takes two hours to get to
(15:37):
that point where it's just a solid mass. But this
because of the process, takes a very short time to
reach that same point in the process. But that's the
other thing too about she's making you know, most of
the recipes are relatively similar, but you have little tweaks
here and there, temperature changes, hold times, introducing water or
not washing the curd, and all of that can make
(15:58):
a drastic difference and the outcome, you know, so pretty amazing.
You are talking a little bit about the about the
science of cheese and how everyone is getting kind of
into into the knitting grity of that. Is that a
thing that you're starting to geek out about personally? Definitely?
I think, um, you know, in this environment where we
are as a small cheese mayb, we've been here for
(16:19):
ten years and we kind of didn't have the luxury
in the facilities and the opportunity to really do it
in a way that you could really break it down
and get down to those finer points and be you know,
really testing each batch to the point where you know
you can detect notes and having your whole staff do
it and really understand where your cheese is and how
(16:40):
it's changing. All of that is just where we're getting
to the point of being able to do that, um
and really get acquainted with it as it changes and
understand what's happening when it does change. Um. At this point,
we're just happy to make cheese and not lose our
minds and get it out the door. Uh. So more space,
(17:02):
the right kind of space um uh, the staff, and
the opportunity to sit down and evaluate what you're doing
and reflect on it in a way. We just haven't
had the time for the opportunity. It's going to be
a huge lead forward for us. So we are excited
about seeking out more about the science of it. And
it's kind of developing making a decision on a cheese
like we really like this, but we'd really like to
dial up some element of it. And how do we
(17:23):
do that? Is that a process or a you know,
different culture or you know, at a point at eight
of aging and making sure it gets to that point.
So that's where I think our cheesemaking goes from really
good to great. Um. But and we try to do
you can hear people out there laughing. Um. We try
to make people have that experience when they come here,
is that you know, you can buy good chees all around,
(17:44):
but to be able to come here talk to somebody
who maybe makes the cheese, and they can ask these
kind of questions about what's the process and how does
it happen, how does it work, where's your milk come from?
I think that's the whole story. I think of local
food is that in this interconnected world of you know,
your cell phone and being plugged in all the time,
there's all the kind of a lack of real connection
(18:04):
between people, and I think this is a framework where
people can be a part of a community and be
see that what they're doing and buying makes a difference.
It's not just something that ordered off the internet. Um.
And that that you're connected to a person who who
did this thing from cows so you can go look
at them in the field and there's no mystery and
what we're doing. So that's the cool thing I think
(18:25):
about local food is that it's as much about community
and building community and connections between people as it is
about actual food. Um. So anyway, anything else we we've
been We've been talking to a lot of people about
how Asheville has been changing over the past few years.
Um and and specifically in connection to like the beer scene.
(18:47):
I mean you said that you guys, you guys sore
nibs from French Broad Chocolates to to rind one of
your one of your cheeses. Do you have any other
kind of interplay between other places that are going on,
other things are going on in town, like draw inspiration
from them today, draw inspiration from you. I think definitely.
We've had, you know, different chefs say hey, could you
work on something like this? Um. You know, we do
(19:10):
try to incorporate other local products in when we can
into the cheesemaking, like the nibs um you know, working
with sugar and snowge alatta where we're making their base.
I think there's a lot of that um evolution. Uh,
that's an interplay that can definitely happen. And it's both.
I think the explosion of the beer stein and Asheville
is in some way it's definitely a blessing, but it's
also occurs. I mean, it's broad eye, ton of people here,
(19:32):
it's a great place to live, so I understand that,
um And it means more customers for us, But it
also means that this you know, world, little world of
Asheville is changing, um, and it's a lot more traffic,
it's a lot more people. Um. Housing is an issue.
A lot of things are happening around that that make
it kind of difficult. And it also makes it hard
to farm because it makes land very expensive. So that
(19:55):
thing that brought people here, this local food connection and
beer scen and whatnot, not so much the you're seen,
but some of that may go away because they can't
afford to be here anymore. So that's kind of the downside, um,
some of the downsides of that development. But it is
a focus on a great area where it's a great
place to live. But back to your original question, Yes,
I think it does open up the door for so
many inner connections between different businesses and for people to
(20:17):
really get creative with food and hey, how can I
I love this brewery? How can I use their beer
my product? And I know people are making like shampoo
out of beer and kinds of stuff. So so yeah,
and beer also brings with it money, so that's nice.
You'll you'll like money. Yes, how did Carmulita happen? Well, Um,
(20:41):
we had a lot of people coming to farmers markets, tourists,
and they're saying, oh my god, I want to bring
some of this home. But and we all had we
only had cheese for them to take, and they're like that,
I'm gonna be on a plane. I don't want to
deal with that. So I started to think about what
would be a product of a dairy based product that
could be shelf stable that I could get them say okay,
well this take this home with you. And that's how
a little bit I had heard of. Um, you know
(21:02):
the traditional cates of the goat smoke caramel sauce. Now
we make also the l out of the cow. But
it's it's just really it's a nice, rich, savory kind
of caramel. It's thick um and it and it just
doesn't have when you go to taste that and then
you go back to doing like something off the shelf
at the grocery store. Um, there's just no comparison in
(21:22):
terms of just the simplicity and the purity of what's
in there because it's sugar and milk and we cook
it for ten hours off over a flame. Um. But
we we came to it as a means of being
able to sell something to somebody who couldn't travel with
a perishable and but it became such a popular product
we just kept making in so and I love it.
It's great, good in your coffee, good as a dessert,
good Dishaunestman, So can you guys switched from like? How
(21:48):
and why? I suppose from goats to cows. We started
out as a goat producer. Only we were buying milk
fifty gallons one time a week from the goat dairy
in Statesville. We were able to source a little closer
as we got people realize we were here and we
were looking to buy goat milk. Um and are the
goat milks, and then we started also buying cow milks,
so pretty early we were doing both. Um U goat's
(22:10):
milk for production is about twice the price are more
than cow's milk. So there's the cost issue. Um, there's
availability issue. There's not very many most of the people
who are goat dairies are using all their own milks.
That they're not very many people selling it. There's only
one in the area that was and they were kind
of deciding to phase out. There are some consistency issues,
and we just said and at that very same time,
I think it's kind of the universe talking to us.
(22:31):
The harmon said, hey, have you ever thought about, you know,
buying We were looking at expanding anyway, but buying this dairy.
And that's when we when we decided that this just
looks like this is going to happen. We made that
switch fully and committed to cows, which I really like. Um,
I would like nabe as we developed in the farm
as a destination develops that we may add back a
(22:52):
small herd and just make small amounts just to sell
from our stores. Um. But and we'll have a store
up here which will stay, and they will also have
a store down the arm. But both of those we
want to try and emphasize kind of the experience and whatnot.
But yeah, um, it was both both. We have to change.
The cost was a factor, and um, we had this
opportunity to switch over to cow and so we did so.
(23:14):
Um and were you only recently able to start doing
a raw milk cheese a raw milk cheese for four
or five years? So what was there a legal issue?
I know that in some places there's been legal quandary
about pasteurization. There's a lot of issues surrounding that, and
a lot of controversy in the cheese world. There's a
lot of debate from the regulators down about what raw
(23:38):
milk should be pasteurized. UM. Now, this one of the
reasons I'm comfortable making this and we chose to make
this a raw milk cheese because it is a hard
aged cheese with a low moisture content. You know, it
can happen anywhere. Um, but if you have a pathogen,
it really likes a moist environment, and some of those
higher moisture cheeses. UM. Right now, until we were really
(23:59):
like dialed in and then know everything about our milk,
I wouldn't even attempt to make a raw milk cheese
of that style. UM. Like a like a gooey washed
rind that I love. Um, that's just barely get into
sixty days before it's almost aging out. You know, with
less sugar and less moisture in these harder age cheeses,
it's a lot less of a risk. UM. So there
(24:20):
is a lot of debate. You've always in the past
ten years since I've been doing it, You've always been
able to make as long as you age it sixty days,
it's kind of a blanket rule. But there are people
who are advocating that it shouldn't be a blanket rule.
It should be based on moisture content. But then there's
the issue of how do you implement that kind of change. Um. So,
so we do make this, we have made it for
a while. We may add one of our blue cheeses
in as a raw milk cheese, but but I think
(24:43):
very carefully about that, and you know, both safety and
you know, making sure that we are very informed about
every step of our process and our milk and having
analyzed before I would even think about making a riskier
class of cheese a raw milk cheese. I mean, you know,
bacteria are responsible for all of this, but not all
of them are great bacteria makes it all happen, and um,
(25:07):
you know it's why cheese and happen. It's such a
great environment for bacteria and usually that's all good, and
you control that process for the good bacteria and have
markers along the way to make sure you're meeting those
food safety goals. But it also makes it a good
environment for other things to happen if you're not controlling
things very carefully. So yeah, um, is there any kind
(25:28):
of cheese that you guys are not currently producing that
you really want to get into. Uh, well, we just started, um,
and we had to manage it in a very different ways,
so we didn't want to bring it into our aging
room here. We have a dedicated aging room down there
for blue cheese. So we developed a really lovely, unctuous
kind of creamy campusola style blue, and then we want
to have a second blue that's more your sweet, crumbly
(25:51):
kind of so two very different kinds. So that's what
we'll be working on developing. We have the unctuous, you know,
lovely blue and then that different Sure we haven't started
working on that. Once we get into the new facility,
will do that. So that style we're gonna really focus
on doing. And then um, just really dialing in the
alpine style on the cheddar and we're adding ice cream
(26:11):
production down there eventually. Yeah, so a lot of people
come in and they have their kids and mom and
dad want to wine and cheese plate, but kids wanted
ice cream coat, so we want to be able to
provide that and because again that's part of just that destination.
But yeah, do you have a favorite? Is that like
asking if you have a favorite child. No, I mean
it's funny. I I like, uh, just it depends on
(26:36):
what you're using it for. You know, if you're just
gonna sit down and have a glass of nine, a
little crusty bread and definitely going for the blue cheese. Um.
You know, if you're gonna shave it onto a salad,
I might even go with barwalla or something like that.
You know, if you're gonna melt it it Just I
think it's more about you know what you're using it
for versus a favorite. But yeah, so many to choose, frown.
It's such a huge world of cheese out there produlming.
(27:00):
Sometimes I have that moment like freak like whenever I
go to buy cheese, like where I'm just standing in
front of it and I'm like, oh no, oh life,
Oh why am I here? Cheese monger is important, and
especially for a small artist and cheese, you need that
advocate there at the retail point and who can talk
about and explain it and understand where these cheese are
(27:22):
coming from, especially the new American varieties are emerging and
may not have like this whole you know history behind them. Um.
To have that passionate person talking about it makes all
the difference when you're standing there, and and then it
also helps you to get out of your comfort zone.
Instead of I always find three or whatever, you can
try something else, you know. So yeah, and I'm really
(27:42):
good at that means super excited about cheese. Yes, you're
totally bored by it. I can tell like, okay, come on,
in a different way. He's much better at talking about it,
making it sounds very exciting. I'm just excited. Um, how
(28:02):
did you get into making cheese? Uh? The animals brought
me into making cheese. I really wanted to be involved
in agriculture. Wasn't very good at growing things, really didn't
want to do the meat side. I'm not opposed to that,
but um, and then I started fooling around just at home,
and I really kind of fell in love with the
processes in a way. I used to do a lot
(28:22):
of baking. It's kind of a lot like baking in
a way. Um, and just do rise time and you're
proofing and adding your yees or whatever. Um. But anyway,
so we did that. I did that for a little
while and then I thought, well, I need to really
see if I want to do this so I prentice
out a goat day in southern Virginia and for six
months he'll go to make cheese, delivered it from the store.
And I was like, this is awesome. Um, and I
(28:43):
wasn't being paid. So if you can work that long,
work that hard, not get paid and still be happy
at the end of the six months, and then I
think you found something that you want to do. And
I'm from there. I just built on experience and took
classes and talk to consultants and you know, then I
started as a cheesemaker at BlackBerry Farm and milking sheep
and making cheese over there there. And then it was
time we either need to commit to doing this ourselves
(29:03):
and building our own program or staying somewhere and being committed.
And we thought it was time to just get out there.
So here we are. We built this building for this problem,
this purpose, not really knowing all we had finished with
this room and then and then everything else is just
kind of in peace together. But it worked. It worked out.
When we started, the inspector said do not get started
(29:25):
unless you have a milk source, because I didn't have
anywhere to even buy milk. And within like two weeks
before we're gonna get licensed. The inspector of all people
called me and said, well, there's a guy outside Staceville
who needs to sell some goat milk. So I'm like, okay,
I had to say. So that's how it started, and
then we just built from there. But one foot in
front of the other. Yeah, but I love it. And
(29:46):
that's the same thing too. Sorry is that coming back
full circle to the animals, because you know, I started
out with goats and working with goats, and I've worked
a lot of sheep and with horses, um, and then
I got away from it for the past ten years
since I've been stuck in here with the cheese all
the time. So now back to the farm. Um, we
have our own herd. We're managing that and getting into
everything about that, from birthing and calving and moving animals
(30:08):
around and you know, growing them at different stages and
understanding what they need and being hands on and outside
in the weather. I love So it's good to get
back to that. And I didn't really realize how much
I missed it. So for me, that's that's the kind
of the fun piece. And then this is the the creative,
exciting piece to see what you can make from from
those animals, and that concluded our tour of the production facility.
(30:32):
We do have that tasting reel for you and we
will get to that as soon as we get back
from one more quick break for a word from our sponsor,
and we're back, Thank you sponsor, and to the tasting.
(30:55):
Um So, let me tell you guys what's on the
please please Fromage blanc because we're kind of going in
order of age from Blong because our fresh cheese, so
Jen maybe talked a little bit about that transition from
doing goat and cow's milk to just cow's milk, So
this is a great it's basically made the same way
to chef, so it's a fresh cheese but made from
(31:15):
cow's milk, so trying to introduce that. But it's also
it's a great cheese because we can make it really quickly,
turned over cash float, etcetera. Also really delicious. And then
we've got some strawberry rubard jam made in Waynesville, just
on the other side of Asheville, and we have a
little Feta um so again traditionally a goat or sheep's
milk cheese that we've kind of taken a recipe and
applied to the cow's milk with some honey chocolate lab
(31:39):
kind of our signature cheese. Jen talked about that one.
You guys want to see French products, right, So this
is coated in their cocoa nibs, washed around a little
bit funky driver's short as our cheddar. And then barre
Wall is the when you guys saw me being made
down there, So that is that product that you guys
saw about three and a half months later. And so
(32:00):
Jen talked a little bit about sort of the new
aging environment and how those are going to impact where
we're tasting. So the chocolate lab is just gonna have
a little bit of a moist environment be able to
really kind of lawesome, get a little funkier. And then
these two you're about two and a half months and
three months. I love to see those in like twelve months.
So we're super excited to see everything go. So sorry,
(32:21):
that was a lot of info. No, that's no, a
lot of info is the very best um you're doing.
You're doing my job for me, which I love. So
did you guys, so please enjoy. Do you guys have
any other questions about cheese itself? What we're doing here,
or um, do you have a do you have a
favorite part of the process that you neared out about? Um,
(32:44):
the whole because everything is so different. I think the
whole process. It's just crazy to me that and you
guys are gonna try everything on this plate is the
same three ingredients. It's bacteria, milk, consult and just through
like process and the right environment and taking care of
it and putting it, you know, treating it in different ways,
you get five completely different flavors. So it's so cool
(33:06):
to see like this in liquid milk come in and
then go into the vat and then like four hours
later it's this whole new thing. And then four months
later it's this whole new thing, and ten months later.
So I think I nerd out about just the alchemy
that happens just through you know, you were taking this
ancient essentially, this ancient thing that people came up with
for preservation and just being able to keep that going,
(33:28):
and it's just yeah, I kind of marvel it, like
how people came up with this as a way to
preserve your milk. Like I think I would not have
done that. I would have just dumped it down and
just got new milk the next day. But it's such
a cool, um cool like historical thing with so much
significance historic but whatever were able to like keep that going.
I onta just a lot of very part of it.
Why Asheville, Why this area, Why these cows, why the
(33:52):
cultures that you use? Um? Are you? Are you? And
that's a really big question. I'm sorry that there's a
lot of I think, for for us, for company wide,
I think, um, I just love that the majority of
the majority of the folks that live here are sort
of you know, here for a reason. There's this communal
part of nature, Like they love that nature in the
(34:14):
environment definitely like part of what Ashville makes Ashville Ashville.
So I think anybody that really chooses to live here
is gonna at least send some connection to that. Like
it's not and not the one way is wrong or
the other, but like it's not like living in a
big city, for sure, but it's not like living in
the middle of the woods. So it's just this sort
of connection with people and the environment and nature. Um.
So I think that's why it's really cool for us
(34:35):
to be here, and we have to share that with
people that are really into it. Is there any kind
of cheese that you are interested in getting into in
the future with the company. Yeah. I think we saw
a lot of success when we used to new Coat Smoke,
and we do some soft ripe and like blimmy Ryan
stuff like in the like More Valley or like things
in the Brie or fresh French goat cheese family. I
(34:58):
think those are super popular. There also cheeses that are
you know, small format, people know that people love them,
So I think there'd be something, you know, down the
road once we get all of our stuff under control,
is something that I'd love to see is kind of
get into it. Um. But I'm pretty excited about the
wide like you're gonna you're gonna taste that. These are
pretty five, pretty desparate flavors, and I think it's pretty
cool that we're able to do that in just one environment,
(35:20):
one road, and I'm excited to see where that goes,
just with what we have and really increasing the quality
insistency about all of those. But some day it's some
literally gooey and kind of sky and it's my favorite
kind of thing. That was gonna be my next question? Yeah,
well was it? What was my favorite it changes all
(35:42):
the time. Like you know, I'll have like a taste
for something someday I would say, like the overreaching, this style,
so greier, those things that are just really dense and savory.
I like in every aspect of my food eating life,
Like savory is the thing, Like something's like sour supost
like sweet savory, just one things you're just like, Ah,
so I think that general family of cheese, but also
(36:05):
I love this sort of gooey and a little bit funky,
and I love the fresh and I just love I
think there's a lot of answers without question. Um, I've
changed from day to day. Right now, I just tried
the Farewell. I mean it's great. It's only two and
a half months old, but it's amazing, and I'm so excited,
Like I taste that, I'm like, this is great. But
then I get to think about in a year, we're
gonna have this amazing space that's built just for this cheese,
(36:27):
that we're gonna be able to see it really reach
its potential. So there's an emotional sign to that one,
I guess. But yeah, that's my favorite right now. Are
you from this region? No, this is not a North
Carolina accent. I'm from northern Indiana kind of like Gary,
(36:48):
kind of on the other side of the border from Chicago,
so up in that area a little bit. What are
you here? So I went to school in Michigan, that's right,
kind of fell in love with cheese. I went at
an internship at a really cool it especially store where
I went to school, and then moved to Nashville. I
got a job with Whole Foods um worked in the cheese,
started just cutting cheese and then started buying keys. And
(37:10):
then I moved around open a few are worked for
a few stores, and then it moved to Asheville to
open a store and two thousand. Yeah, because the fourteens
I came here, um, and it was awesome, Like I
got to do so many cool things for that company
and learn so many things. They paid for my certification,
which is incredible. Um. And then I just got to
know Jenn and Andy. And then once they bought the
dairy farm, kind of we just talked a little bit
(37:32):
and then came on board and was super like such
slight the ideal opportunity and the ideal time to come
in and like be a part of this amazing thing.
And transformation and super cool. It's a really great like
community of collaboration in Ashville. Everyone we've talked to you
so far that's kind of spoken about that, So it's
kind of cool, Like I don't think that's I mean,
(37:53):
I guess the beer community is pretty it's always like that,
and that's such a big part of Ashville. So I
think I think, like per centage wise, it's such a
big part of the quote unquote artistan community here in
Nashville that I think that's sort of led over and
people are more open to collaboration because I feel like
it's not always the case everywhere you go. Um So,
I think that's very something I think that we're grateful
(38:14):
to the beer community is like they're so open to
helping out with each other and lifting each other up
that I think all the restaurants and all the uh
cheesemakers and all the just the little producers are all
about working together for everything out or not, you know,
more collaboration, less competition. Um As, I love like this whole.
It seems that I love that people are excited about cheese,
(38:39):
like consumers are excited about how you make your cheeses,
and that they know where the cows are, and like,
I love that the consumer is kind of koding more
connected to the products. And I'm just think that's really true.
How do you do? And I think it's you know,
it's been happening for the last like fifteen ten years.
Where do you Where do you guys live at Atlanta?
So I mean you've seen there a lot of you know,
(39:01):
Star provisions down there has been like they've got an
awesome cheese counter, um, but you know, the artist and
cheese has just become this and it's kind of grown
with all other sectors of the food. Like I think
beer was, wine was huge, you know, that became a
much more in the consciousness, and then beer and then cheese.
And I think it's just kind of a rising tide situation.
And I think that's just generally sort of in the
zeitgeist of you know, people and they're eating habits um.
(39:23):
But for us that we're like putting in all this
work and like you say, it's sweaty back there, and
it's a lot of work. And it's a lot of
especially for me, I do like not nearly as much
work as Jen and Nandy, like Holly milk and building
this new thing. I like working so much, but to
just be able to like connect to people that really
care about what you're doing and appreciate it and then
keep coming back and sharing that story. And I think
(39:44):
that's not only like financially gonna be really great for us,
but also like spiritually, like we're gonna be, you know,
be a part of this thing that matters to people. Yeah, yeah, awesome, awesome, guys, Well,
please eat, I'm here. If you have any more questions,
there is there anything else that we should have asked
you we have, Um, we'll just ruminate. Yeah, sort of
(40:09):
a dairy joke. Let me know if anything else. All right,
I'm just going to start grabbing stuff. Can't make a clee? Yeah, okay,
what when are you tasting now? Annie? I don't know
the one that we just saw being made and it
looks completely different after three months? Is it three months
(40:33):
after a little aging? I think it is only three months? Yeah, firm,
very savory. Yep, it's good. That's my review, Annie. I
love your food reviews recuses. Any would just be like good. Yep.
(40:56):
I feel like I'll have more welcome to my mouth blazes. Um,
I feel like all them more to say about it
after I try other ones. Um, but it's really rich
um and it's got The cheese is a little bit yellowed.
I suspect that after it's gone through a little bit
more aging, um, the Batacre team will really come out
(41:16):
from the from the weed, little fat particles in there
interned in a nice deep orange because it's it's got
just a just a twinge of of just that like
like deep savor nous that you get from like an
old aged cheese that just tastes like it's almost mouth
puckering and how savory it is, Like you you just
(41:37):
want to drink it with a red wine. You'd want
to drink the cheese with a red wine. That's what
you want to do. Yeah, this is why we're rolling
a bit in the wine. What what else did you
just try to move? This is the one they're known for.
The chocolate. The nives are from the French broad French
(42:01):
chocolate my gri um. So it's a coating on the
outside and it is very unique and very good. I
can see where they are known for it. The texture
is much softer than I thought it would be looking
at it, but it's got a nice like almost cheddar,
but like much milder and funkier kind of thing. Mm hmm.
(42:25):
I just try to lease the cheddar. Um, and it's
so smooth. I We've talked a lot about dogs on
this trip, as we usually do whenever Dylan and I
are in a room together. And I feel like the
experience of eating this cheddar is like the experience of
petting a soft dog, like a nice golden retriever. Um. Yeah,
(42:50):
and it is. It is so striking how different how
diver they taste. Um. But I know it sounds obvious
when you think about it, but um, it's so much
sharper than the weer style. Yeah. Oh that is so funky.
H oh when it's solved this one. Um, I just
took a bite of the I want the one with
the chocolate, nip with the with the nip, oh, and
(43:15):
that one. The chocolate didn't hit me until the very
the very back of the bite of cheese. Um, which
provides a really interesting finish, because the upfront is just
all of this, Like it's like drinking a funky beer.
Like it's it's just like funk and mineral and weirdness,
Like you can taste the cave it's a taste of
(43:39):
rainbow taste for cave. Yeah, I mean that they need
to trademark that. I don't know when we're not literally
every one's marketing too, we would be the best at it.
And I don't remember what this was supposed to be.
(44:02):
I think he said it was just like a soft
ripened because that one was like this Chevra and beta.
It's better. That is absolutely the texture that I'm experiencing.
M Oh, that is so good. And it's and it
(44:24):
has a little bit more funk than I feel like
Fetta usually has a lot of fettas that I've had.
It's sort of like clean and bright and like maybe
even a little bit lemony. But what I'm getting from
that is it's very how like kind of fun to it,
which is really nice. Yeah, it's got a good like
(44:45):
almost curd like springing this. Yeah, they kind of squeaked them,
do you yea, which I liked. I think I mostly
just tasted cracker right there. Sounds really interesting. I'm excited
to hear what you think that good. I might still
just be tasting cracker. I'm trying to figure out what
I've got right Yeah, yeah, Um, the fresh cheese that
(45:11):
they have on here or least aged. I think it's
a Famosa blong style. Um. It's almost more of a
texture than a flavor. It does have a little bit
of that like bright lemony kind of thing that I
was talking about the feta not having um like I
want to layer it with like maserrated strawberries. It is
(45:33):
really good with the strawberry jam. I haven't tried anything
with the jam yet. I've been We've been wasting my life.
Come on, learn one type quality not really reads out
the auto m. Yeah, these are good. I like it.
(45:58):
We like it. That brings us to the end of
our interview plus tasting experience. I hope that no one's
so furious they can't try the cheese. But oh, you
can try the cheese. You can buy their non perishable
products online year round, and their cheeses during the colder
(46:21):
months at Asheville Cheese dot Com or just google looking
Glass Creeper right, they'll they'll pop right up. One of
the things that you can buy year round is their
car moulita, which we never got to try and I
forgot to buy a jar of and I'm so mad
at myself because it's like a Dulca delche thing if
that wasn't clear during the interview, and oh it sounds
I love a Dulci de leche. I canself, Oh yes
(46:47):
you should, yes, you should. Um. Yeah, they were such
a delight to talk to you. And any chance to
try cheese yeah yeah. And and also I um, I
really connected in my brain when when I was reading
through our interview transcript recently we had just done that
career episode and so talking about the style of cheese
(47:08):
where you're like, it needs to be this type so
that when you are marching cows up a mountain and
then marching cheese down a mountain, you can handle all
of that. And I was like, oh, it all connects,
it does it does. Anyway, if you have any cheese
stories to share with us, goodness, we would love to
hear them. Oh you know we would a local creamery's perhaps, yes,
(47:32):
And you can share those via email at hello at
savor pod dot com. You can also get in touch
by a social media We are on Twitter, Facebook, and
Instagram at savor pod. We do hope to hear from you.
Savor is a production of I Heart Radio and Stuff Media.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. Thank you, as always to
(47:55):
our superproducers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you
for listening, and we hope that lots more good things
are coming your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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