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January 15, 2025 59 mins

Historical true crime doesn’t have to be dry. We chat with Holly Frey and Maria Trimarchi, hosts of the podcast Criminalia, about how they illuminate stories through cocktails (and mocktails!) in their show and new book: Killer Cocktails: Dangerous Drinks Inspired by History’s Most Nefarious Criminals.

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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Savior production of iHeartRadio. I'm Annie
Reso and.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Lauren Vogelbaum. And today we have an interview for
you with a couple of our fellow iHeart Radio podcast
hosts talking about a book called Killer Cocktails.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Yes, and they are people that I suspect, you know,
you've probably heard of before, and if you haven't, you
should check them out.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yes, so we have joining us today Holly Fry and
Maria Tremarki. They are, in addition to many other things,
the hosts of this historical true crime podcast called Criminalia
and the authors of the coordinating like History slash cocktail
recipe book Killer Cocktails, colon dangerous drinks inspired by history's

(00:58):
most nefarious criminals, which, of course we were like, you
need to come on Safer immediately to talk about this
with us.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yes, and we discuss it in the episode. But there
are so many cocktail and mocktail recipes in this book, like,
and they have fun backstories and reasoning behind them, and
not even fun, but like well thought out, creative, Yeah,
reasoning behind these cocktails and mocktails, and it's just so fun.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
It is so great. Really recommend it.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, and you get to learn cool facts about you know,
terrible things that happened in history.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yeah, but they do talk about if you're if you're
uncomfortable with true crime, they do talk about like how
they they are responsible with it, Yeah, how they try
to be you know, they do mostly historical things, but
even then they try to think about like families and things.
So yeah, it's really informative and really interesting.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, I'm not generally a true crime human, especially like
current true crime stories. I'm like, no, that's about real
people and that's upsetting. But from a couple hundred years ago,
and I don't know, you throw some lady poisoners or
art heists or you know, accused witchcraft in there.

Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, it's really fun because they do like themes per
season or per chapter of the book, per chapter of
the book also yeah, and so yeah, you do get
like the art heist season or chapter, and so it's
it's just a really it's a fun way to go

(02:43):
about content and to have like, oh, here's a drink
you can make.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah, go along with this.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, cool story and a drink. And they do include
a mocktail for every single one, which is wonderful.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Absolutely so should we let asked Annie and Lauren get
into this interview.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Oh yeah, all right, Hi, and welcome to Savor.

Speaker 5 (03:11):
Who are you. I'm Holly Frye. I one of the
hosts of Criminalia as well as stuff you missed in
history class, and I'm an intergalactic barfly and general history buff.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
My name is Murriage Marky and I co host Criminalia
with Holly Frye.

Speaker 5 (03:29):
And I have a lot.

Speaker 4 (03:31):
Of years of writing that had nothing to do with
true crime before I started writing a true crime podcast,
so it has been very interesting and lots of murderous things.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, you guys do deal with a lot of heavy,
heavy topics on your podcast and in this book, but
you try to, you know, keep it fairly light with
a kind of post mortem pun. I'd say it wasn't intended,
but it was intended after the facts.

Speaker 4 (04:00):
So here we are in.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
By, you know, right, like talking it through and having
a cocktail and a backtail recipe in there. What sparked
this concept? What made you guys put together like hay
murder and also cocktails.

Speaker 5 (04:15):
We were working on the first season of the show,
which was about women poisoners, and I don't know what
made me think of it. It might have been when
we were thinking about what we were going to call
the season I think it was, and one of the
ideas that I was like, Oh, we could call it
What's Your Poison? And then I was like, oh, that

(04:36):
don't waste that there. What if we call a drink
segment that instead? And then that's how that happened.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
It is.

Speaker 4 (04:43):
I still have, like I call them now, the historical
documents of the podcast. I still have many documents that
have that listed as the season one title, which it
didn't end up being. But yeah, long ago.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Goodness, yeah yeah, because you guys debuted in August of
twenty twenty. What a time to debut a podcast, I know, right, yeah,
but I think correct me if I'm wrong, Holly, but
you actually weren't drinking alcohol during that time?

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Is that right?

Speaker 2 (05:13):
I feel like I feel like you have said to
me in the past and maybe you were lying, but.

Speaker 5 (05:18):
I feel oh no, no, no, no, no no no.
I think there might be a little bit of confusion.
No what we discovered because as you know, you know,
Lauren and I have spent time together socially, like I
love a good drink, but I had the opposite thing
happen of most people, or not most people, but a
lot of people during the pandemic suddenly were like, Wow,
I'm drinking a lot because there's not a lot else

(05:39):
to do. And we discovered that I, without any intention,
was not drinking that much. Like my husband was like,
I don't remember the last time I saw you drink,
and I was like, because there's nobody to hang out with, like,
and we realized I had never really realized, like, oh,
I'm pretty much exclusively a social drink and I'm never
going to be like end of the day, I'm gonna
mix myself a times, but not very often.

Speaker 4 (06:02):
Just in the morning when we do the podcast.

Speaker 5 (06:06):
Yeah, let me just tell you. My local liquor Story
knows that I'm coming in every Wednesday morning because that's
my workshop period where I try to figure out drinks.
And they're like, that woman's here again at nine thirty
in the morning on a weekday.

Speaker 4 (06:23):
They're like, let's keep our odd aisle stocked.

Speaker 5 (06:27):
Right, you know, if they could just get the chartreuse
in hand.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
Oh my goodness, it's a problem.

Speaker 5 (06:33):
We're all struggling. Yeah, So I didn't I didn't give
it up. I just realized my consumption had gone way down.
But when we started doing the the cocktail segment on
the podcast, I realized pretty quickly. I was like, oh,
you know, I don't want to just be a dilettante
about this. So I went to bartending school during the pandemic,

(06:55):
like I did online bartending school, which was very fun,
and then you kind of got to taste it everything.
But you realize pretty quickly, like there there is that
thing of like I make a lot of drinks, but
a lot of alcohol goes down the scene because you
can't really be drinking everything you're testing.

Speaker 4 (07:12):
Exactly, especially if you have to test functionality.

Speaker 6 (07:14):
Will will see And to your credit, I have never
there's never been a day that we have recorded the
podcast where I've thought to myself, how many of these
test drinks did Holly have as much?

Speaker 2 (07:29):
That's good, that's good to hear. Yes, drink responsibly everyone, Yes,
always always, you know, we we We've annie And I've
run into that a few times, especially when we used
to do video and we would go interview a bartender
or you know, something like that, and it would be
ten in the morning and they would be like, here,
have seven cocktails and it.

Speaker 5 (07:48):
Was like, what.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
I'm going to be a minute, I feel like we
have to.

Speaker 5 (08:00):
Call a live.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
So okay.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
So obviously cocktails were already kind of an interest of yours,
Olly M. Murray, Is this something that you had as
well in your background.

Speaker 4 (08:17):
Or No, I'm actually not that much of a drinker.
Like my drink when I go out would just normally
be like a whiskey on the rocks, kind of a
situation where you know and and there'd be a cocktail
to you that I knew that I also liked, but
I didn't really stray from from my two or three favorites.
But now I certainly have and I and I own

(08:41):
alcohols that ips I never thought that I would, and
I have become more of a fan of gin, which
was really kind of one of the drinks that one
of the spirits that I didn't really like in my
cocktails when we first started. But after four years of
just fun drinks, experiment hunting with drinks, choose your own

(09:01):
adventure drinks which I love those that has actually started
to come around for me, which is really I mean,
I guess a perk of the of the show, I'm
stretching my boundaries of alcohol, right, you're expanding those exactly. Yeah,
so we didn't. I don't remember when we began cocktails,
but it wasn't with the very first season. But it

(09:23):
was very very very early on. No, I mean the
first episode, not the first season. I think it was
like episode two or three, though I'm not sure that.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
No, it was before we launched, was it.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
Tilly had a cocktail pretty sure, and she was our first,
but she wasn't our first recorded That is what I'm thinking.
We were super early drink drinks.

Speaker 5 (09:44):
Oh, you know what is confusing you? I know exactly
what what is doing this in your head? When we
first started recording, we didn't record the two segments together.
That might be what your is what I am thinking.
Producer at the time was like, let's do narrative and
then we'll do cocktails. Is a different recording session, almost
like pickups. That is why. But they were always intended

(10:08):
because it was in development when we decided to do it.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
And I remember that our very first episode used a
Polish vodka, Like I remember it was there.

Speaker 5 (10:15):
I justbraka everyone, It's Zbraka is really good. It's a
bison grass vodka and it just has this really beautiful, bright,
clean finish. I mean, most vodkas, you know, it's a

(10:37):
neutral spirit, so it doesn't have a ton of flavor.
But it's very funny to me because I have no
palette for beer, like none. Everything tastes like rolling rock
to me. But I which is, you know, fine whatever.
But like I will hear friends who are really into
beers and they'll talk about like all of the notes
that they get and I have none of that. But

(10:59):
I can do that with vodka. Yeah, yeah, that is
why I have you know, favorite brands. But Zubruka is
really nice because it has this nice green element to it,
like it feels very fresh and kind of springtimey.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, I can, I feel you, Like, like I've just
never really gotten into vodkas, but soju and like light RUMs,
I am super into the weird, funky flavors that can
come into that kind of stuff. So yeah, seen and heard. Okay,
now I need to get into another drink category.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
I know, right, expand your drink categories. It's really quite amazing,
I find, although.

Speaker 5 (11:37):
I do love the the that y'all use.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Y'all provide a mocktail for every single recipe as well,
because we're big fans here of like, there are many
reasons to not drink, and yeah, everyone deserves good drinks.

Speaker 5 (11:51):
Yeah, I mean that's like the big thing, right. We
started doing mocktails when we did a season called Impostors
and it was about people who, you know, we're pretending
to be somebody else. And a friend of mine reached
out about halfway through and she was like, I wish
you always did mocktail season because I'm sober. And I
was like, oh, I didn't know that, and I was like,
that's a good idea. And so then we just started

(12:13):
doing mocktails for every one of the drinks. So when
we got back to do the book, we had to
go back and do the first two seasons mocktails that
we hadn't done initially, which was nice.

Speaker 4 (12:24):
So, yeah, the book has mocktails for everything, but the
show starts in Impostors.

Speaker 3 (12:29):
Yeah yeah, And.

Speaker 4 (12:30):
It was really nice to go back and do the mocktails.
I like knowing that it's really well rounded that way. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Did did bartending school teach you anything about non alcoholic
so much?

Speaker 4 (12:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (12:41):
Oh that's great, Oh about non alcoholic Yeah yeah, yes,
and no, because one of the big things that I
really my biggest takeaway, and I actually want to go
back and take some more classes just because it's good to,
you know, learn more stuff continuing in drinking. Is that
the big thing that really was my main takeaway was

(13:03):
it I really got much better at learning how to
balance drinks and to develop a palette for balance. And
that applies to anything, whether it has alcohol in it
or not, where you can be like this is this
is too it's too tart, this one's too sweet, this
one is not rounded out, there's something missing. It just
needs a little something something. So it kind of applies

(13:25):
to everything you make, whether that's an alcoholic libation or not.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
What about true crime? Was that a thing that y'all
had an interest in or was it just because I
know that both of you are into history stuff.

Speaker 4 (13:40):
But true crime, the true crime, like the origination of
this is best told by Holly because she was part
of it.

Speaker 5 (13:51):
Yeah. So when we were developing the slate for Shondaland,
our boss Connell Burn had said to me, he sent
me a write up from I don't remember where about
Julia Tafana, who is a famous poisoner, and he said,
is this a podcast? And I was like, no, not

(14:13):
on its own. I mean, the idea is great, the
idea of it is great, but she's really tricky because
she is, you know, several hundred years back, she was Italian.
There are not records that are easily accessible unless you
literally travel to Italy, which even if we had the
budget for that, we were in the middle of a
pandemic stay at home time, and I am not fluent

(14:37):
in Italian, nor do I have someone I could be like,
will you go read these things from me and report back?
So I was like, but the idea of women who
poison people is pretty interesting. Maybe that could be a podcast.
But then as Maria and I talked about that, we realized, like,
what if that's just the first season and each season
becomes a different flavor of crime that we can explore historically,

(15:00):
because true crime is really interesting, but it's a little
unnerving and I often feel like it gets a little
voyeuristic and like we don't want to do anything that
could result in someone knocking on a person's door and
be like, hey, I heard about your deceased relative. I've
sold the case, or can you give me infor me?
Like we don't want any of them. So all these

(15:21):
people are all these people are gone, nobody's nobody's gonna
bug anybody.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
Right, We've made a point of doing historical true crime.
And I had never written true crime before. I'd never
written crime before, but I'd written all sorts of things before.
Holly know, I met each other at How Stuff.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Works and known each other for a minute, right like.

Speaker 4 (15:44):
A good dozen years or so, probably, although we haven't
worked together that whole time, but as my editor, I
loved working with Holly and when she contacted me about
this podcast, it was nailed down that it was going
to be a true true crime podcast and probably you know,
we were looking at female poisoners and I was literally

(16:04):
deplaning and all of my text messages were coming in.

Speaker 5 (16:08):
And I was like, Holly, Hollie.

Speaker 4 (16:09):
So I clicked on that one first. I'm like, how's
Holly doing? And She's like, hey, I have a question
for you, and like and it just sort of went
rolling from there, and when we were together in San
Francisco talking about what the what this show could be like,
and that's kind of when it started to expand, and
also when we decided that the kinds of true crimes

(16:31):
that we would talk about everyone's dead, everyone's got to
be dead. We look at their story and their time
and place and how it might be different today if
it happened, you know. And I think that comes up
a little bit more in some season topics than in
other season topics. You know, women poisoners, for instance, there
were many women executed who may or may not have

(16:53):
been in the situation that was described as they were.
Other times we just did a Partner's in Ime season,
everybody was guilty, you know.

Speaker 5 (17:02):
Like.

Speaker 4 (17:05):
Pretty much every single person in that season was guilty,
but they are not in recent times. So I think
we've only come up to about.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
Nineteen eighty two ish.

Speaker 4 (17:16):
Which feels recent to me because of my age, but
is not actually a recent year now. Years ago, right, Oh,
it was just spread around.

Speaker 5 (17:25):
A corner twelve were kidding twelve.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
Right, And I think about how old I was when
when some of these more recent crimes were happening, and
I think sometimes I sort of remember them a little bit.
I don't our Partners in crime. Of course, we remember
none of them because most of them were public enemy
number one bank robbers and that sort of thing. But yeah,
we just we try to be very constant that of

(17:52):
the people who are involved or who were involved, and
try to treat their story with delicate gloves.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Oh, that really comes through, and it makes it softens
some of the truly terrible things that you're talking about.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
Gosh, sometimes I gotta say, it's so difficult. So I
write the narratives and pass them off to Holly, and
Holly reads them and she gets inspiration for the cocktails
and that's the short version. But in doing the research
for these narratives, I mean sometimes you come across information
where you're like, wow, I really can't process this very well,
very I just put that aside for a moment and

(18:32):
come back to it later because it's so terrible. Not
every season has that, and some seasons have it like
every episode and it just keeps like you feel like
you're plotting along in the land of Hell and you
kind of are.

Speaker 5 (18:48):
Yeah, and then you end up doing a season on
art Heists and everything's fun, right, It's ours the most
fun season ever.

Speaker 4 (18:53):
It was, so it was our favorite season, both of us.
I think, favorite stories, favorite drinks, favorite everything about Artius
was just great and we even talk about possibly doing
another one because it was just it was it was there.
I mean, it's big, there's so many, so much to
cover as you really want to. But I don't believe
that there was any murder that happened.

Speaker 5 (19:15):
Everybody survived artheist season.

Speaker 4 (19:17):
Yeah, some people went to prison, but everybody was alive.
Yeah yeah, no one.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
Very few people got like tuberculosis like it was right, Yeah,
you know, no one was burned at the stake.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
The surprising things were things like so for ten years
that museum didn't have security and they got robbed three
times and never did anything about it. Like that was
the kind of thing that surprised us. That it wasn't
like what the murder weapon was. It was just have
you heard of.

Speaker 5 (19:45):
Somebody just took it off the wall, ducked it under
their arm and strolled out or.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
Joking a true story there there was one person very
similarly put it in a little like you know, grocery
bag and walk doat But I believe he was arrested
in the taxi cab outside. But like it was, you know,
it was that kind of season where you were like
you just took it off the wall like.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
So gentle. Yeah, along those lines, I actually wanted to
recommend to y'all. We've done a couple episodes here and
they're about food heists. That is other material, right, ripe
for the picking again, pun intended after the fact.

Speaker 5 (20:25):
Yes, I love the pun.

Speaker 4 (20:28):
My my LinkedIn profile says punter at the top, and
yet I still love it.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
I know, right, I didn't used to like puns. And
I worked with Annie Reese for like seven years and
here I am.

Speaker 4 (20:40):
So what you're saying, is Annie backpack carrying punters? Happy
to you? Annie?

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Did Did y'all always intend for there to be a
companion book?

Speaker 5 (21:06):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (21:07):
And no, that might be like like a little bit
insider baseball, because I know that they really encourage us
to think about the extra stuff that we can do
when we're doing just about Yeah.

Speaker 5 (21:17):
I mean, since Criminalia is a little bit my baby
in terms of concept, there was always part of me.
And then once we had cocktails, I was like, that'd
be a really cool book.

Speaker 4 (21:29):
But I think that's really when we when we were
there could be potential here.

Speaker 5 (21:34):
Yeah, But then like we were just busy making this show,
but we started getting so many reach outs from listeners
that were like, is there a place where all of
these are written down? Is there going to be a book.
Can I can you put up a website? Can I
put up a website? Can you give me the recipes?

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Like?

Speaker 5 (21:50):
There were a lot of those discussions.

Speaker 4 (21:52):
Right, there was a person who had kept a spreadsheet
like it's just amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (21:56):
And then I mean, the book has been in the
works for over two years snow, and so there has
been this long period of time where I would have
to be really cagey with people, like on social media,
where they would be like book when and I'm like,
stay tuned, like I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (22:12):
It's a surprise.

Speaker 6 (22:13):
Yeh.

Speaker 5 (22:15):
Will's fingers crossed a right, So yeah, that was it's
a slow burn process.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
But yeah, we do have more of this interview for you,
but first we have a quick break for a word
from our sponsors. Now we're back, Thank you sponsors, and
now back to the interview.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
So I think I think I counted that there are
seventy four in the book something like that. How on
earth did you choose like, like, what do you guys
think makes a good stock and what makes a good cocktail? Relatedly,
so I would.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
Say when when I was thinking about this and going
through sort of a I made an enormous spreadsheet of
every single episode that we had, and I made the
cocktail list next to it, and my first pass through
that was based on cocktail frankly, and then my second
past was okay, which ones are both strong to go

(23:26):
in there? But knowing that, I kind of went cocktail forward,
knowing that we would be shortening. So about half of
the cocktails and stories in the book are also episodes,
and there are about half that are brand new cocktails
mocktails and stories, and so that too is a little
bit difficult because you would narrow down the number that

(23:49):
she wanted, and then I'd pass over to Holly and
she'd be like, oh, we should do this one, you know,
pass back and forth. This was a sheet that went
back and forth a lot, and there was then this
sense of okay, now half of these can only go in,
and we have to find some new ones. But I
generally keep when we were thinking about new stories, I

(24:10):
keep a running list of stories that didn't make it
into the season, and so a lot of them I
was able to pull from that, and then just some
new research went into some more. But it was even
I would I would say, writing the narratives that are
in the book that were episodes. It was almost like
rewriting them anyway. It's just that we already had the

(24:34):
idea and you know, we had cocktail and mocktail available
for them, and like the research and all the research
is done, and it's really hard to determine when you've
got an episode and you have to narrow it down
to like what I call postcard size, what stays about
that person and what doesn't stay about that person. And

(24:54):
that got us into the into the editing process where
we found that, you know, removing something might effect Holly's drink,
or moving something from Holly's drink intro would affect the story,
and so we really had to be very aware of
all the moving parts of the book at all the
same time. But yeah, it was really hard, I thought,

(25:15):
I think to narrow things down. There were just things
about some people that I wanted to make sure were
still part of their story, whether in the end that
happened or not. But sometimes it's good. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (25:30):
Yeah. The other flip is trying to balance out any
of the given chapters because the chapters all mirror season, yes,
And my whole thing with any given season is that
we try to do a balance of obviously you want
a variety of drinks, but also I want to make
sure if we pull in an ingredient that is maybe

(25:52):
a little pricier or a little bit harder to get
a hold of, then it repeats somewhere for people, so
they're not like they wanted me to buy a bottle
of foot and it costs how much and now it's
now I don't know any other drinks to make with.

Speaker 4 (26:06):
It used an ounce and a half and that's it. Yeah,
So that that that, that balance was so difficult. I
think it was just it went on and on.

Speaker 5 (26:14):
That was tricky. There were definite days of like, Okay, yes,
these are the best six stories from this season, but
the all vodka and we need other things. So there
were lots of discussions around those.

Speaker 4 (26:27):
Yeah, And I think that's also probably why we started
out looking at these are strong stories, but what are
the cocktails?

Speaker 2 (26:34):
Like, No, that's that went That's right? Yeah, I mean
any story is a good story when you tell it right.
It could be hypothetically I'm like, is that true? Maybe not,
but I think no, I think because you haven't if
you tell it.

Speaker 4 (26:51):
Right, Oh, what we can do with those stories?

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yes, but all right, so if there are seventy four
seventy five stories in there, that means that there are
one hundred and forty to one hundred and fifty drink
recipes in there, and that sounds like so much research
and development it is, Holly, could you, yeah, could you
take us a little bit behind the scenes of your

(27:18):
of your process for taking a story and making it
into like telling a story through a drink?

Speaker 5 (27:24):
It is. And actually one of those entries has three drinks,
oh three yeah, cocktails because I did a shot flight, which.

Speaker 4 (27:32):
Which we couldn't do in an episode, which was fun
in the book, I was so happy.

Speaker 5 (27:36):
Yeah, I mean, we probably could in an episode, but
it would make a long segment. But the idea there,
which is pretty indicative of how I work, is that
in that instance, we were talking about an art heist
that happened in Mexico on Christmas Day, and all of
the things that were stolen were tiny.

Speaker 7 (27:54):
Like things could They were all pockets and out, tiny
sculptures and stuff, and so I was like trying to
think about it, and I was like, you know, what
would be fun is to do several tiny drinks.

Speaker 5 (28:04):
And it was funny because when I would talk to
like friends and I'd be like, oh, I'm doing a
shot flight, and they thought I would. They're like, are
you literally gonna put like two ounces of vodka in
one glass? And I was like, no, no, no, no, They're
like tiny cocktails. Because my thing with shots is that one,
not everybody wants to gulp of shots gross. Two, no

(28:25):
one should ever be pressured to do that. But three
they should be yummy on their own. And my own
personal thing is that not everybody likes the super spirit
forward drink. So if you make a shot, it should
be something that someone can add like two ounces of
ginger ale or two ounces of club soda or something
too and have a much more easy sip. So it
has to be like a little balanced like that. But

(28:46):
I based all three of those drinks off of different
pieces of art that were stolen, Like there's one that's
like a green tea based shot that refers back to
a tiny jade mask that was stolen, and like things
like that.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
Kicked ass in our heist season with how she inspired
her drinks. I always pull this season out in particular,
and it's not me saying that the other seasons weren't
as good for cocktails. But I loved how her inspiration
worked with this particular season and how she pulled out

(29:20):
what the actual stolen art was and brought elements from
it to the drink itself. And that's just so creative
and so inspiring for building a brand new cocktail for
that people have never seen before. I just loved it.

Speaker 5 (29:33):
Yeah, the drinks had to look like the art in
some way, which was very fun and challenging but really delightful.
And then you know, in any time I get Marie's narrative,
like it bounces back and forth, she writes the first draft,
it comes to me, I will make it its rights. Initially,

(29:53):
initially it would expand a lot on my end before
it got back to her, but we kind of developed
a language, and now, like I sometimes there's no notes
at all, and sometimes it's just like, oh, you had
a duplicate word in the area.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
Right, and that's it. I had never written for an
audio show before, and I have done a lot of
different forms of writing, but never never anything podcast wise,
and so for the first i'd say maybe a month
to three months or so of the show, I would
send something over and really rely on her to be
like this is this is more appropriate in a format?

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, right, it is. It does sound different out loud
than it just does.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
It does even if you read it aloud in your
living room as you're writing it, it's not the same thing.
And so I had to get each to that a
little bit when we first started, and now I generally
I'll leave comments for her sometimes like this is the
most horrific thing that I have ever read. Write back
with like questions that she has about, you know, like
you know, did so and so say X, Y and
Z or did she go to those school or you know,

(30:52):
like things that could expand that I might have.

Speaker 5 (30:55):
Just clarified exactly.

Speaker 4 (30:58):
And Holly and I because when we started working together
a long time ago, we were working as writer editor
and so we just naturally fall into this. And I
always used to joke about when we first started, Holly
can write. She can write just like me. She will
absolutely she can pull it out. Now she's known now
my writing for so long, and she's like, let's just
read it. She just she just does it. She's got it.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
It's that editor brain.

Speaker 4 (31:24):
We have a criminalia voice and we think they do.

Speaker 5 (31:27):
Yeah yeah, And it's both it's very much a hybrid
of the way that the two of us tend to
write and talk. And yeah, our phraseology has gotten to
be like a unison thing to finish your question about
you know, how drinks happen? They just fall down from
the sky like a that's such a deep cut of

(31:49):
a Tom Waits interview. I don't know why I just
did that, but.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
No.

Speaker 5 (31:53):
Usually what happens is I get that that initial version
back and I do my edits and I send it
back to and then I ruminate. And sometimes I ruminate
in a very passive kind of way where I go
and do other things and let my brain kind of
percolate in the background. But usually there is either one
turn of phrase or one detail or one thing that

(32:15):
I just cannot stop thinking about, and I like, okay, well,
how does that translate into a drink? And also what
style of drink? Like are we going to do something
like a sour? Does this make more sense as you know,
like a shandy? Could this be whatever it is? That
kind of feels right, it's very vibes. I wish it

(32:36):
were more scientific, but it isn't. And then I just experiment,
and sometimes I do that and I go nod is
not the right drink for this, and then we make
another and we see what happens. But usually it stays
pretty close to the initial Like I actually write the
recipe before I pour anything, and then I make that
recipe and then I go no, no, and I do

(32:57):
tweaks and come up with where it actually lands. So
because if I just go down there with no plan,
I don't. I'm just gonna make it.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Maybe you're just throwing stuff in a glass, like wait
a minute, a lot longer, and.

Speaker 5 (33:11):
You're gonna wait. I'll literally just make a vodka collins
over and over, because that's.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
While I think about this, I'll make myself.

Speaker 5 (33:22):
I mean, while I contemplate any of them.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
Uh, did you have any Did you have any recipes
that were like particularly difficult to crack or did they
all just kind of come together eventually in their own time?

Speaker 5 (33:37):
They kind of all come together eventually. We actually, I
will give you a little behind the scenes of what's
coming in this season. We're about to start. We are
doing a season of cold cases, and these are hard.
They're way harder because you know, in some cases it's like, oh,

(34:00):
this person got murdered and nobody knows what happened to them,
And so in a way that's sort of inspiring because
I'm trying to be very careful and respectful and not
find be like, here's the joyous part of their you know,
horrific assa and this is fun because right, So in
some ways we try to do that as you know,

(34:23):
almost like an antidote to what we've had to deal with,
but like in a way that hopefully respects them. There's
one in the book about a woman named Janet Horn
who was executed for witchcraft, but in fact she probably
just had dementia, and her story really breaks my heart.
And so her cocktail is called Apology, and all of

(34:45):
the ingredients are things that are associated with making peace
and penitents. And so sometimes it's something like that where
I'll be like, Okay, what herbs and flowers are associated
with this idea I want to do, and I'll see
what's edible in that list, and then see what can
be incorporated into a drink. And so it's a little
like I said, there's not much science to it other

(35:06):
than like knowing how to balance a drink or knowing
what different drink styles are.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Yeah, no flavors are a science, but ideas are vibes.

Speaker 4 (35:13):
That's right, right.

Speaker 5 (35:15):
It's a little bit a little tricky.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
I can never I don't think i've ever no one
time I came close to guessing what the inspiration we've written.
We've done more than two hundred episodes, right, so this
is this is a very small number that I've been
able to sort of figure out as I've been writing
what will the inspiration be for the cocktail? And I

(35:40):
over the seasons started adding quotes, adding details, adding lists
of ingredients that came up in our snake Oil season,
just in case something from there might might just spark
for her. One that always comes up for me though,
And I think it's because when I wrote it, I
was like, I added in a quote for a woman's

(36:02):
shabby black dress and I wasn't originally going to put
it in, and I was like, that's actually really just
like that describes her perfectly, so it has to go
in there. And I put it in hoping that that
was like, I feel like this could be good inspiration
for something.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Maybe it did.

Speaker 4 (36:24):
That in that particular episode, I was like, yes, I
picked I picked it. Like an over two hundred episodes,
I finally got one, like I'm like.

Speaker 5 (36:32):
God, Well, that's part of it too, is that I
never want to be obvious. Yes, in part because it's
fun to surprise Maria, I don't, but also just because,
like you know, it's fun to not be obvious.

Speaker 4 (36:47):
It's fun to not be obvious. And I made it,
have made it a point since the very beginning of
the show not to know the cocktail before it is
talked about on that episode, and so I from the name,
to the ingredients to all of it, I do not
know ahead of time. And so that actually is one
of my favorite parts about doing the show. We do
it at the end, and it's usually right after some

(37:10):
terrible paragraph that we have read about about a crime,
and then there's the the semi awkward soup. I want
to have a drink, yes, And it only feels semi
awkward because we just talked about somebody who did or

(37:32):
was a victim of something horrible, you know, And you know,
how exactly do you move from that to tonally? Yeah, yeah,
but you can, and you do, and then you get
into the cocktail segment and all is well, but because
you keep the tone that you had from the episode.
But yeah, it's always a bit of a like, man,

(37:53):
I shouldn't have ended the narrative like that, even though
narratively it was perfect right, but it does not fit.
Change this up.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
We do have a little bit more of this interview left,
but first we've got one more quick break for a
word from our sponsors, and we're back. Thank you sponsors,
and back to the interview. You've already mentioned a couple

(38:25):
of them, and I don't you know, like like without
giving away too many of your secrets from the podcast
or the book, are there any stories or like historical
revelations that have really stuck with you, or any cocktails
or like ingredient revelations that have stuck with you.

Speaker 5 (38:43):
I'm trying to think a story.

Speaker 4 (38:45):
I am. I have a few stories that always stay
with me because of certain details about the person. Generally,
there are a few, I would say, from impostors or
few impostors that stick with me. There was a man
who in particular history always has stayed with me, and

(39:07):
I think this was the third season that we did,
and it was mainly because his wardrobe was so incredibly
awesome that he was able to dress up and pretend
to be anything made he wanted to be basically like
like an admiral to like, you know, like he was.
He was into consignment, I think, and he made it work.

(39:32):
But also in impostors. There was a story that I
always like to think of as our as kind of
our feel good true crime story. There was a man
named Barry Bremen. And Barry never hurt anyone. He never
He never pretended to be someone who existed already. He
would always pretend to be an athlete, and he would

(39:55):
run onto the basketball court or out onto the baseball field,
and you know, Tommy Lyssorda kicked him off one time
and a lot of profanity, but Barry was just a
fun guy who wanted to be a Dallas cowboy cheerleader.
You know, there was nothing in his story that gave
me nightmares, and I've always his story is always stuck
with me. But there's a second one, and it's a

(40:15):
very little detail, and it's it's a personal one where
when we were doing partners in crime, we had a
lot of bank robberies, we had a lot of you
know that just Depression era, Prohibition era, there was a
lot happening that was partners in crime at this time.
But We did a story about a couple that ran
a safe house for most Midwestern criminals at the time,

(40:39):
and like they all at some point had made the
rounds to this particular oh the farm right at the Farmers. Yeah,
and it had, of course occurred to me that there
was a support system supporting all of these gangsters that
were out there. Of course, right, I mean, how could
it work? They had to have had it. But Hill,

(41:00):
writing that actual narrative, I was like, man, like, there's
a lot going on kind of under the scenes here
where you know, you hear a lot about you know,
machine gun Kelly, and you know, all these people al
Capone and they're all staying in these these safe houses
or and the rest of the network of things that

(41:20):
supported them in doing what they did in their criminal lives.
And to me, it was just one of those moments
where I went, oh, duh, I hadn't really thought about
that before. There's all sorts of things supporting their way
of life, illegally supporting their way of life.

Speaker 5 (41:39):
Yeah. In terms of drinks, the esther Carlson always stands
out for me because that one's fun. It does a
trick while you're drinking. Yeah, because it's about Bell Gunnis,
who you know, everybody knows. She was, you know, murderous
and lured men to her farm with the promise of
love and then feel boardy. And after she disappeared, she

(42:04):
was rumored to be living in Los Angeles under the
name of Estra Carlton. And so I wanted to do
a drink that started out one way and then became
a different drink as you went. So it has like
it's a very basic drink of like a spirit and
a mixer. But then the ice you have to prep
ice cubes in advance that have their cranberry but they

(42:27):
have a layer of Holopeno juice in them, so as
you're drinking, it gets sweeter, but then it starts to
bite you a.

Speaker 4 (42:33):
Little bit, and then it hits you on the back
of the head.

Speaker 5 (42:37):
Like we have another there's another one in the book
that's from the season on Grave Robbers that starts out
kind of like an espresso Martini and transforms a little
bit closer to something like a white Russian as you
drink it, as the ice cubes melt down because it's
their cream ice cubes.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
Bell, by the way, is the inspiration for the new
episode coming up for Cold Cases because nobody ever found
out if Esther, Carlson, and Bell Gunns were the same person.
We're not covering her again, but I've been thinking about
it since your on her.

Speaker 5 (43:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yeah, Is there is there anything else that you can
tell us about that you're looking forward to for the.

Speaker 5 (43:26):
Future more drinks? Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm I'm very
curious because we are in the middle of recording Cold
Cases how it's gonna unfold, both narratively and drink wise.
We will land ycause it is more challenging than others.

Speaker 4 (43:46):
I think it's going to be a difficult season two,
just based on the fact that it's going to be
a lot of terrible things that happened to people.

Speaker 5 (43:52):
Yeah, there's not a lot of resolution to a lot
of pain, Yeah, which is always tricky. But other than that,
we'll just keep on trucking.

Speaker 4 (44:00):
Yeah. I have a very long list of season possibilities,
and I actually was looking at it in the last
couple of days and I was like, Wow, this really
is a very long list. So there's a lot of
option ahead of us. And I always try to if
we do a season or season or two seasons together

(44:20):
that are are just really difficult seasons to get through
for whatever reason it is. But usually it's because it's
it's just a really crimey crime season. Let's say, it
may not be particularly gory or graphic, but it's in
some ways just a difficult season to to just keep
talking about these stories. I try to do something that's

(44:43):
a little bit more like imposters, where or art heists,
where we weren't dealing on a on a weekly basis
with terrible murders.

Speaker 5 (44:52):
You know, Yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (44:55):
Don't need dismemberment in every episode that we do. That's okay.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
Sometimes I like for flavor like murder.

Speaker 4 (45:01):
Yeah, sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't have to be bloody
like I. Yes, so there is a little bit about that.

Speaker 5 (45:11):
Try a new drinks.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
I've been hugging the microphone this entire time. Annie is
do you do you have?

Speaker 4 (45:21):
Do you have? Questions?

Speaker 3 (45:25):
So many?

Speaker 1 (45:26):
But we must, we must keep time in mind. I
do think this is really amazing. You keep talking about
balance in terms of cocktails, in terms of stories, in
terms for both yourselves, for the listeners, for people who
are buying new ingredients, and so I just I really
appreciate the work that went into that in the book.

Speaker 5 (45:50):
Because if you're gonna buy acovy more than I'm kind
of speaking from.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
Yes, I don't buy a lot of ingredients, and when
I do, I want to use all of it, so
I'm really appreciative.

Speaker 5 (46:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (46:04):
I actually I've wondered about myself if that was the
reason why I would order cocktails out and about in
the world but not make them at home. Is because
I just didn't want to have all the bottles, or
I didn't have the right bottles, or you know, whatever
it was. It just wasn't there and it is now.

Speaker 5 (46:24):
Although there is a funny instance when we were first
developing the book. I can't remember if this was during
when we were prepping our pitch documents or we were
already into I think it was then, or if we
were already into you know, editorial. But one of the
ingredients in one of the drinks. I think it was

(46:46):
one of our book agents who brought I don't this
is really weird. Are you sure you want to include this? Like,
I don't know if people are going to be able
to get it? And it was liquid smoke, yeah, And
I was like, go down to the bodega. I promise
you they have it.

Speaker 8 (47:00):
But it was just something they had never had access
or you know, considered, and so I think that they
thought it was some like fancy pants unicorn like bar tool,
and I'm like, no, no, no, no, it's literally one
of the many things you slather onto like ribs or
like stuff at a barbecue.

Speaker 5 (47:20):
But it was very, very fun.

Speaker 4 (47:21):
I guarantee that they were not thinking of it in
their cocktail, you know, like it just did not come.

Speaker 5 (47:26):
And I don't think I did another liquid smoke drink.
So if you bought some, I hope you also have
like a rib rub or something, because I didn't balance that.

Speaker 4 (47:39):
We mostly balance.

Speaker 5 (47:42):
Try. We tried.

Speaker 4 (47:44):
If we were better balanced, we probably would have skipped
cold cases this time and done them a light a
lighter season. But the lighter season will come next.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Yes, well, I mean yeah, people could find other uses
for liquid smoke.

Speaker 3 (47:59):
I think it's fine.

Speaker 4 (48:00):
I think that's funny.

Speaker 5 (48:01):
Though one would hope you're reading it very it was.
She was so earnest in her question, like are you
sure you want to include this, And I'm like, yes,
it's like a buck ninety.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
It's more than you'll ever use.

Speaker 4 (48:20):
Keep it in the bridge.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
So we like to always ask if there's something that
you would like to talk about that we have not
asked about.

Speaker 3 (48:30):
Is there something burning you'd like to speak to?

Speaker 4 (48:34):
You got anything burning? You gotta speak too.

Speaker 5 (48:36):
I mean, the thing's burning in my soul right now.
Don't have to do with this book, Like is everyone
watching Skeleton Crew? Like different? I have other things my soul.

Speaker 4 (48:50):
Now that the book is out and on shelves, I'm.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
Like, so.

Speaker 5 (48:55):
Right, definitely, that's definitely a moment. It was very terrifying
in the weeks leading up, and then it was like, well,
the cow's been flung. I can't I can't unring this
particular bell.

Speaker 4 (49:07):
That yeah, right, there was that one day where it
went to production. You can't you can't stop it. Train
has gone. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (49:15):
No, I will say this was a funny thing that
I think is a good life lesson for everybody of
how I tempered my own anxiety about the whole thing,
because I'm always like, one of the things that I
always try to do is make any of these recipes
pretty approachable and accessible for anybody, whether they've been making
drinks or not. But I also worry that people will

(49:37):
be like, what on earth is this woman doing? None
of these are that you know, particularly thrilling or exciting
or whatever. Anyway, it's very it's stressful to me in
a way that other things are not. I don't want
people to think I'm a garbage bartender. But then you know,
if you move in the history and bartending world, there
are a lot of old like the earliest bartending books,

(49:59):
right like Jerry Tom he's like the godfather. And Henry Krattick,
who wrote the Savoy Cocktail Book in nineteen thirty, like,
these are all very old cocktail books. And I was
going through them, and recently, because of something on this show,
I was going through Harry Krattock's book and I just
had this moment where I was like, this dude literally

(50:19):
put whiskey and cream in a glass and called it
and he's like a godfather of cotail culture. And I'm like,
I'm not gonna be so worried.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
I enjoy this. It's fine, half and half whiskey.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
I hope you like curdles.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
Good luck.

Speaker 5 (50:36):
God's feed through Texas. And I was like, all right,
all right, all right, like we none of us have
to be that precious about the things that we create.
There's you know, everybody. Someone is going to dislike probably
everything ever made by anyone, no matter how wonderful it is,

(50:57):
and thus we should not get so hungry about it.
So that was a good like personal life less yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Yeah, and especially with cocktails, you know, that's a matter
of taste and there you know, there's some, there's some sure.

Speaker 4 (51:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
There were some drinks in this book that I was like,
oh my gosh, I need to make that immediately, and
some that I were like, I'm going to leave that
for another human persons. That sounds delightful for not me.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
There's a drink in the book that I love the
I love the drink. It's like a creamsicle drink. It's
it's it's about it's the story of adel Hugo, Victor
Hugo's daughter.

Speaker 5 (51:28):
Oh yeah, Victor's party trick.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
Victor's party trick. And I had come across in research
of his daughter. His daughter had stalked someone, and so
Victor wasn't really part of the story. But I had
come across in research that he had a special party
trick that he would do when he would bring all
of his literary and artistic friends to the house. And
and Holly used in this this inspiration for a really

(51:53):
lovely like summertime drink. You know, it's it's orange vanilla flavored.
It's it's just great, right. But Victor, and all I
could think of whenever I could find this research was
he had to have had an enormous mouth, because here's
his victory. Would put an orange, real, an entire orange
in his mouth and then like shove sugar cubes into

(52:16):
his cheeks, take two, like shot two glasses of drink,
and then chew the whole thing up. And that was
his party trick. And all I think of was was
it like a clementine or was that like a full
naval orange?

Speaker 5 (52:34):
Specific?

Speaker 4 (52:36):
I need to know more because that's enormous potentially.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
I have concerns. I have not just questions, but I have.

Speaker 4 (52:42):
Actually had concerns with the man choking concerns in particular, and.

Speaker 5 (52:48):
Also the stomach acid.

Speaker 4 (52:51):
Can you imagine but the drink that came on it
does not involve an entire orange in your mouth. And
I'm just very lovely.

Speaker 3 (53:03):
What a party?

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Can you imagine being at some party and some guy
being like, here.

Speaker 4 (53:09):
Hold on, your host is like and I've I've got
something for you.

Speaker 5 (53:12):
Now I just like the idea that there were people
there that were like, oh god, I don't want to.

Speaker 4 (53:19):
You know. His wife's like I don't watch the second time.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
And oranges were expensive, like.

Speaker 4 (53:28):
A holiday payment. He would do like I don't. But
sometimes research comes out with just spectacular things like that
at that you can't necessarily use in the narrative, but
can be used in your episode.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
You never know where the reading is going to take you.

Speaker 4 (53:46):
We really don't know where it's going to go. Yeah,
that's true.

Speaker 5 (53:51):
There's a jump scare in every story.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
I think. Actually it's coming coming around to writing true
crime for the last four years really is, and that
is something that you you sort of get to look
forward to in your research as as you're doing episode
to episode is kind of this sort of what's gonna
happen here? Is it gonna be the way that? You know?
Like is the train gonna stay on the track or

(54:16):
is it gonna go off rail? I guess we're gonna
find out.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Yeah, yeah, very frequently, especially like the further back you go,
you're like, oh man, really they really didn't have Netflix,
like they were making their own fun, right, whatever was
going on here exactly?

Speaker 4 (54:31):
Like I don't want to be part of the nineteen
thirties and Midwest just just no, just I'm good.

Speaker 5 (54:36):
Hard pass Yeah, essentially anytime in London at the Savoy
drinking whiskey.

Speaker 4 (54:41):
And cream, right, whiskey and green my new favorite drink.
Part of me, I have to tell you, I don't
know if you've tried it, but ever since you told
me about it, Holly, part of me is like I
kind of feel like it has to be tried, Like
can I put it on ice? Like I need to

(55:01):
know go with God? Yeah, I'm pretty sure, Like exactly
how do I want to do it? And will I
do it? I don't know, but I know that it
will likely only be a sip and we're good.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
This is like a jump stair jump scare cocktail. I
want to hear how this.

Speaker 5 (55:21):
Goes for you.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
I know I might have to try it and report back.

Speaker 5 (55:27):
There are a lot of those in the old cocktail books,
a lot of like I'm sorry, I'm.

Speaker 4 (55:32):
Sorry, and that last ingredient was what.

Speaker 5 (55:37):
Fill a wine glass with our snake of a tiple
of port.

Speaker 4 (55:42):
I hear, I hear that if you if you low
dose it, it makes your your pupils will dilate, you
look very pretty.

Speaker 5 (55:49):
Oh, you can snack.

Speaker 4 (55:51):
On the biscuits while you do the same thing.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
Get some radium, get some radium paint on your teeth,
and you're going to really glow at the party.

Speaker 5 (55:59):
Yeah, right, until your job falls off.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
Exactly. Girls, they would just make themselves sparkle, you know,
I mean, what's wrong with that? Until you don't have
bones left? Until that bone up until the no bones party.

Speaker 5 (56:15):
Fabulous.

Speaker 4 (56:17):
That was a difficult season because they were there were
snake oil season, because there were stories like, oh you
were you know, in research you'd find X rays of
jaws that didn't really exist anymore. And you know, I
mean some people just were selling like water in a bottle,
but some people were trying to tell you that they
could cure cancer with radium, you know, and those were
those were hard stories.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Yeah. Well, I am so glad that you guys bring
some levity to those hard stories. And also, I mean,
those hard stories are good to remember and good to tell.
And certainly you know, it's it's it's neat, So maybe
we won't make similar mistakes in the future.

Speaker 5 (56:55):
Make all kinds of new ones.

Speaker 4 (56:57):
Yeah, people just do people stuff they talk about it.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
I think that's the name of that whiskey and cream cocktail.
People just do people stuff.

Speaker 5 (57:09):
It's actually called a cowboy.

Speaker 3 (57:15):
Okay, it's a part of it.

Speaker 4 (57:16):
It was a part of Snake Oil Naked.

Speaker 5 (57:21):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
I'm just coping with that, like I know, retort to
handle like, okay, well, thank you so much. I'm like,
and please leave, Please.

Speaker 4 (57:39):
Take your cream and whiskey with you.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
It has been so delightful having you here and knowing
about cowboys what they drink.

Speaker 4 (57:51):
Like, Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 (57:56):
Thank you for having us.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
And this brings us to the end of our interview
with Holly and Maria. We hope that you enjoyed it
as much as we enjoyed doing it. It was so
fun we could have kept going. Please go check out
the book Killer Cocktails Dangerous Strengths, inspired by History's most
nefarious criminals, and also the show Criminalia, which I believe
is coming out soon the new season as this comes out.

(58:27):
So go check those things out. Oh yeah, they're wonderful people.
It was very fun to talk to them.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
And if you try any of the cocktails, hell.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Yeah, yeah, right in let us know, yes, you can
do that in many ways. You can email us at
Hello at sabrepod dot com.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
We're also on social media. You can find us on
Twitter and moving into Blue Sky, Facebook and Instagram at
saber pod and we do hope to hear from you.
Save is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my
heart Radio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks to
Holly and Maria for joining us today. Thanks as always

(59:06):
to our super producers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks
to you for listening, and we hope that lots more
good things are coming your way

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Anney Reese

Anney Reese

Lauren Vogelbaum

Lauren Vogelbaum

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