August 3, 2024 • 40 mins
This shaved ice dessert can include everything from fruit and jellies to ice cream and evaporated milk. Anney and Lauren dig into the history and culture of halo-halo.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Savor production of iHeartRadio. I'm Annie
Reese and I'm.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
More in Vocal Bam and today we have an episode
for you about Hollow Hollow Yes, which.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I have never heard of this.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Oh, oh my goodness, it is so good. This was
an episode so full of cravings for me. I love
Filipino food. I actually had hallow hollow a first at
a local Malaysian restaurant years ago. I went there like
kind of a lot and they started giving me this
free like to go cup after I'd paid my tab,
(00:42):
which they kept. They kept little to go cups of
hallow Hello and like a little side freezer. And I yeah,
the first time I had it, I was like, what
is going on? What is going on in this dessert?
And then I was like, this is the best dessert.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
It does sound like a really lovely medley of like
textures and flavors and even in some cases colors. Oh yes,
oh yes, yeah yeah. So I'm I'm very I would
love to try.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So we have to go now to go find it.
Yeah oh yeah. Heat of summer absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yes, Well, speaking of, was there any particular reason this
was on your mind?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
For?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Heat of summer. Yeah, I guess it had been on
my list for a while and I felt like it
was an appropriate time.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I agree. I agree. It's very very warm right now,
and I'm in my closet studio, which means I have
pulled out the stops. I won't go into specifics of
what that means, okay, of staying cool as ice packs.
(01:55):
It's mostly ice packs? Oh wow? Yeah yeah, yeah, yes,
Well you can see our past episodes on we haven't
done ice cream. I don't think we've done Sundays. Yeah,
(02:15):
and we've done ice cream adjacent thing. Sure, we've talked
about shave ice, but I don't think we've done an
episode on that either. Jackfruit, Yeah, I have done an
episode on I think, oh my brain, I've definitely done
(02:36):
an episode on ice.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yes, maybe, like like gelato and Sherbit.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Are oh pretty close. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Also bubble Tea ties in here.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yes, Yes, there's a there's a lot of a lot
of things that touch in Yeah. Well, I guess that
brings us to our question. I guess it does. Hollow
hollow What is it?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, hollow hollow is a type of chilled dessert that
is a mix or layering of many different elements that
can include lots of things, but typically you've got shaved ice,
cubes of flavored gelatine, cubes of leche flawn, evaporated milk
or sweetened condensed milk, fruit, either fresh or frozen or
(03:26):
in syrup or in jam format, sweet beans or sweet
bean paste, maybe some like tapioca or other types of jelly, pearls,
scoop of ice cream, and some kind of like crispy
crunchy topping sprinkled on, often served layered up in a
tall glass and eaten with a long handled spoon, either
like at the end of the meal or more likely
(03:46):
like alone as a snack. It is a lot. It
is brightly colored and fun and just all of these
like different textures and flavors, fruity and creamy and rich
and refreshing and sweet and smooth and bouncy all at
the same time. Just sort of whimsical and a little
bit weird on purpose and sort of feels like it
(04:09):
shouldn't work, but it just really does. It's like a
it's like a kid's party in a glass, like like
a really good one, you know, like with a bounce
house and a swimming pool, and then like an ice
cream truck comes by.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, that does sound lovely, right.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I want to go to that kids. I want to
throw that kid's party, not really for kids, for like me,
I know, my adult in heavy quotation marks friends.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Uh So everyone who likes hollow Hollow has kind of
specific ingredients that they like in it. The possibilities, as
you may be getting the idea, are pretty endless. Shaved
ice is the common denominator, but everything else is sort
of like whatever you have or or whatever you want.
(05:01):
And y'all, I've like red recipes that use frozen coconut
water instead of regular water, or maybe like watermelon ice
or something like that. So even that shaved ice base
is not a totally firm base. Okay. The dish is
from the Philippines, and so the traditional ingredients are from
there or like otherwise ended up there. But within Filipino
(05:23):
culture there are a lot of like regional and personal takes.
The name hollow hollow literally means mix mix in Tagalag
like mixes, and a noun so likes like mixture. The
overall flavor profile is sweet, but folks do not shy
away from savory or salty or spicy additions, and so
(05:46):
what follows is not a comprehensive list of potential ingredients.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
And if I miss your favorite, do write in. If
I say something that you think is totally wrong, you
can write in two. But I'm just reporting the facts.
I'm not saying that you need to have it in there.
You do whatever you want to you. I am not
the arbiter of that. Nor do I want to be
too big. Too big, Yeah, gonna reduce my aspirations to podcasting. Okay,
(06:18):
So the fruit category jackfruit is common, not the firm,
unripe type that you might have in like vegetarian barbecue,
but rather the ripe, soft, almost sort of custardy type
that tastes sort of like a like tropical bubblegum. Other
popular fruits include bananas or ripe plantains, melon, sugar, palm fruit,
macapono coconut, which is like soft and sort of jelly
(06:41):
like when it's fresh, mango cooked corn kernels. To obtain
a soft texture in your fruit, and to also get
a little bit of sauce out into the mix, canned
fruit in syrup is often used, or you can cook
your own fresh fruit down with a little bit of
sugar syrup and then cool it before you put it
in the beans. If you are unfamiliar with sweetened beans
(07:05):
or bean pastes in desserts, this is a preparation of
cooked beans and sugar syrup, and they go sort of
like rich and pasty, thick and tender, kind of like
peanut butter and jelly at the same time. Small red
mung beans, which I know by the Japanese term at
zooki beans, are really common, but I've also seen white
mung beans and other types of beans as well, like chickpeas.
(07:28):
Then you've got your jelly layer or addition, rather think
like gelatin desserts like jello chopped up into small pieces.
Pandan flavor, which is green in color and tastes like
slightly grassy coconut vanilla, is pretty popular because it's colorful
and tasty. Coconut or coconut milk jellies are common too.
(07:49):
I've seen just plain sweetened agar acre. I think it's
agar as well, the texture being as important as the
flavor in the jelly addition here pearls okay. I've seen
big ones or small ones used made of tapioca or sago,
but all cooked to a kind of like springy jelly
(08:11):
sort of texture in sugar syrup. Sometimes other flavorings like
pandan ice creams Ube is maybe the most popular because
ube is this type of bright purple yam, and so
the ice cream made from it is this really stunning
violet color, which is so pretty. I've also seen avocado, mango,
(08:34):
coconut pandant queso, which is like a salted cheese flavor,
and regular old vanilla. You're a leche flun. This is
a type of cream caramel, like a steamed custard that's
set in a sauce made from caramelaed sugar. Yeah, and
man like, adding a slicer chunk of this is kind
of a hollow, hollow power move. It's like, hey, I
(08:58):
made this whole other disease, and I'm putting a little
on top of my dessert because I can. Okay, Although
pretty much all of these ingredients are like that, So
then we've got our sauces. So either evaporated or sweetened
condensed milk are common, but I've also seen fruit sauces
(09:22):
or caramel sauces, or like a sweetened milk flavored with
macha or taro ube jam. The texture of sort of
like a like a thick apple. Butter is also common,
though I guess that rides the line between like a
topping versus a sauce. Then your crispy crunchy toppings. Glutenous
rice flakes or corn flakes are common. I've also seen
(09:42):
puffed rice sort of like rice crispies used, or toasted
coconut flakes or chocolate wafer cookie do not come at me. Yes,
some of these additions are controversial. There's a whole conversation
about like how much is too much to add to
hollow hollow, and like what's too extravagant for a sort
of homie dessert, and what flavors or textures are too
(10:06):
far from the traditional and what's sort of like only
there for the Instagram factor.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, yeah, and I know we're going to talk about
this a bit more in the history section, but I
did run into that a lot where it was like, hmmm, oh,
because I've never had it, so I'm sort of like,
I don't know, you.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Like, I don't know what does go in there.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, people have opinions, and we love we do.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
But yeah, so whatever it is, you pile everything together
in a big old glass or cup. People do have
opinions on how to layer stuff in there, but generally,
like the dense fruit and beans go on the bottom,
the ice goes in above it, and then the creamy
stuff goes on top. Generally, to eat it, you might
mix it all up or kind of like scoop out
individual bits and bites of different layers. As the shape
(11:00):
ice melts, it all becomes like a sort of like
a like a melted like milkshake or like melting ice
cream Sunday sort of gig ah, it's really good. And yeah,
it can be a snack in a plastic cup from
a roadside cart, or something you make at home totally
from scratch or totally from cans, or a really fancy
(11:22):
restaurant dessert or anything in between. It is pretty nostalgic
for lots of people who grew.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Up with it. Yes, wow, what about the nutritional treats?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Are nice?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Treats? Are nice? Treats?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Are nice? Drink some water, eat, eat a vegetable that
has not been candied.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Ooh oh, listeners, please write it with your hollow hollow
recipes or yes, yes, he is, that would be amazing.
We have a couple. We have a number four years.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
A number ish sure. So as of the early two thousands,
this popular Chinese Filipino fast food chain called Chow King
was seeing twenty five percent of its gross sales from
Hollow Hollow every summer. Like the rest of the year,
there's sales of hollow Hollow accounted for ten percent of
(12:24):
their gross and it just shot up to twenty five
percent every summer. During the hottest part of the year,
which there which in the Philippines is March to May ish,
any individual store would be selling from five hundred to
fifteen hundred servings per day per day.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
And the chain has had like like two hundred and
fifty stores in the Philippines at that point.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
It's a good hot weather treat. Even without having had it,
I'm like.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I get it icy and delicious. Yeah, I couldn't find
I couldn't find any festivals specifically devoted to hallow Hello.
Like it's sort of in the way that like there's
not really a festival devoted to like cotton candy, Like
it just shows up places. But I have seen a
couple of Filipino American like culture festivals with hollow Hollow
(13:24):
in the name. There is in fact a music fest
in the Orlando area. That looks awesome. So you guys
have been write in and tell us.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yes, please please do. But this brings us to quite
the history section oofta.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yes, yes, and we are going to get into that
as soon as we get back from a quick break
ForWord for our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Back, thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
So. Lots of dishes tell the story of all of
the culinary influences of a place, and Hollow Hollow is
definitely one of those.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yes. Many of these ingredients showcase the history of the
Philippines and the influence of colonization. Ice from the US,
the roots of the dessert from Japan, and the la
cheflon from the Spanish.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Okay, So the Spanish colonized and mostly controlled the Philippines
from the mid fifteen hundreds through eighteen ninety eight.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yes, and before the Philippines were colonized, they frequently traded
with Japan.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, like there were Japanese immigrants living there when the
Spanish arrived.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Most historians trace the history of Hollow Hollow back to
two desserts from Japan, one called kakigori and one called mitsumame.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yes, and so okay kakagory is a category of shaved
ice desserts, and it's mammae is a category of jelly
based desserts. They both have a lot of iterations, but
modernly cucagory often involves toppings like flavored syrups, sweet and
condensed milk, sweet beans and fruit over shaved ice. And
then it's a maame is more like a sweet dessert
(15:21):
salad kind of situation, with like cubes of often flavored jellies,
sweet beans or bean paste, pieces of fruit, and some
kind of sugary syrup as a sauce. Both probably didn't
look like that back in the eighteen hundreds, though, but
they were developing in various pockets of Japanese culture by
the middle to end of the Edo period, like the
(15:43):
eighteen hundreds ish, and we're popular by the turn of
the twentieth century. We'll have to come back to both
in different episodes.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Meanwhile, canned milk products came up in the mid eighteen
hundreds as well. Cucagory might have been made of fresh
milk at times, but evaporated or sweetened condensed milk were
both hitting the global scene right around the same time, right.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And both of these desserts likely made it from Japan
to the Philippines through trade and immigration. And of course,
as we always say, those things travel, those like taste travel.
Japanese folks brought their taste with them, including khaki gory.
As always, it was adapted based on taste, traditions and
(16:30):
ingredients in the area. Soon, some Japanese people started opening
small businesses to sell these versions of khaki gory.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah. Small businesses like restaurants were a pretty common way
for Japanese Filipinos to make a living at the time,
and in Tagalig a word for dzuki beans or mung
beans is mungo, and so sweetened mungo found their way
into the shaved ice desserts that people were making. The
desserts were sometimes called a mungo on yelo conialo, being Spanish.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
For with ice right, and these Japanese folks often called
the shops mongo yah, and they quickly grew popular in Manila.
As the popularity grew, so did the ingredients. The list
of ingredients yeah, fruit in simple syrup, cube jellies, and
ube jam.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Although it's hard to really discern where and when each
of those came in, but sure ingredients were growing, popularity
was growing at the time. There was some ice being
shipped into the Philippines from international ice harvesting businesses like
we talked about in our episode Frederick Tutor's by the
(17:45):
mid eighteen hundreds, and probably some ice coming down from
Japan to maybe it was definitely a fancy thing ice
in warm climates until the turn of the century at least.
The introduction of le cheiflan is a little bit of
a curveball historically speaking, like, okay, custards go way back
(18:08):
in European history. Certainly the Spanish were making custard by
the time they started colonizing the Philippines, but let chiflann
or crime caramel like, which is baked using a steambath
and with the caramelized sugar on the top. That's a
more recent, like late eighteen hundreds iteration of custard. So
(18:29):
I would say it's a possibility that working class Filipinos
around the turn of the century learned about the dish
from fancy European style kitchens that they were employed in,
or that well to do Filipinos learned about it from
fancy European style dinners that they were attending either way.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Both ways.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Perhaps lechiflan eventually became a very popular like holiday fiesta
party dessert and eventually eventually made its way into Hollow Hollow,
But I could I could not put a date on
it for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Though.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
The idea of a like refreshing afternoon snack called ameerenda
was installed by the Spanish during the eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Yes, I've got that. Yeah. And something else that played
an important role in the evolution of Hollow Hollow happened
after America's occupation of the Philippines beginning in eighteen ninety eight.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Right, that's when the US annexed the Philippines from Spain
following the Spanish American War. Note that this was not
a smooth transition, but that's a different podcast, probably different episode.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah. Yeah. At the time, there wasn't a lot of
ice available there, and the US began exporting ice to
increase the supply. Later, in nineteen oh two, America built
Manila's first ice plant, making it far easier when it
came to anything that required ice, including Hollow Hollow.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah. These Japanese frozen dessert shops and soda fountains really
thrived though on the business of relatively wealthy customers. It
would be a few decades before frozen desserts would have
been in reach for lower earners. And as Americans colonized
the area, they also brought in a lot of canned goods,
(20:28):
which became a bit of a status symbol for well
off Filipinos at the time, who started to repurpose things
like canned corn in their own cuisine. There's a story
that this American official's wife told in her letters to
friends and family from the time how she was like
a little scandalized when a wealthy local served her canned
(20:50):
corn with powdered sugar at his dinner table, Like, oh,
what a silly thing to do. But this sort of
thing shows that, you know, people were taking these these
goods that were novel to them and being creative and
personalizing them. And of course, like there is a whole
other conversation to be had about the power dynamics of
canned foods and colonization and all of that. But I
(21:15):
love when people get excited about something that's so cool
and like find a new way to use it, Like
Hekiya put powdered chugger on there that sounds delicious.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Absolutely be creative, it's great.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Anyway, uh okay. Moving forward into the nineteen twenties, a
few technological like slash modernization things were happening, so home
refrigerators began to hit the market and the price of
ice started to drop. Japanese ice shaving machines also started
to hit the market, and there was a growing middle class.
(21:52):
There was also a push for better sanitation practices and
regulation of ice after a couple of like typhoid and
colera outbreaks traced back to improper ice storage. By this point,
in nineteen twenty two, health Department records show that there
was a popular shaved or scraped ice dish it's called
(22:12):
scraped ice in the literature that they called the mixed
food popularly named hollow Hollow. So we don't have more
like fun evidence, but it is clear that by this
time nineteen twenty two, Filipinos had adopted kakagori and started
making it their own up to an including the name.
(22:33):
Around the same time, the premiere Filipino ice cream brand,
Magnolia was getting big. There were just lots of frozen
dessert shops around Manila through the nineteen thirties, but the
Philippines were a major site of warfare during World War Two,
with the Japanese military invading and occupying parts of the
islands and waging naval battles and the surrounding waters. It
(22:56):
was really bloody on all sides, with lots of law
of Filipino resistance and civilian life, and a good bit
of destruction in places like Manila.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yes and the mango yash shops all but disappeared from
the Philippines with the evacuation of the Japanese after World
War Two, and this led to a wave of even
more creativity when it came to ingredients, some of which
did cause controversy continued to cause controversy. I think this
is when ube became a popular ingredient in some regional
(23:31):
varieties of hollow hollow. I couldn't find specifics, but certainly
this is when our modern take on ice cream really
took off. So if you're looking at ube, ice cream
and ice cream was reintroduced to the Philippines during the
post for American occupation.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, like think of all the ice cream parlor culture
of the late forties through the fifties. The US ceded
control of the Philippines to independent rule in nineteen forty,
but remained a heavy military and economic influence. So yeah,
they were still bringing products in, but there was also
right this local culture for frozen treats rooted already. Eventually,
(24:15):
Magnolia came out with local flavors now considered classics like
ube and sweetcorn and mango. Post war Filipino owned food
stands and restaurants started springing up, including ones that featured
some of those old Soda Fountain favorites like shaved ice
desserts including hollow hollow, and some of them, like Little Kiapo,
(24:37):
are still around today. The dessert had made its way
to Oakland, California, a suburb of San Francisco, with a
wave of post war Filipino immigrants by the nineteen fifties.
There's a nineteen fifty eight newspaper write up recommending that
you try it if you're in the Oakland area. In
the seventies and eighties, Filipino fast food joints Jolly Bee
(24:57):
and Chow King got started, both with how Hollow on
the menu.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
And hollow hollows started to become really popular in the
US in twenty thirteen ish, as did Filipino cuisine at large.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah. In twenty sixteen, speaking of a BONEU Petite magazine
really pissed off the Internet with an ode to Hollow
Hollow that included some like really confusing substitutions like popcorn
instead of those little like rice crispies and gummy bears
in place of tapioca pearls or like sugar palm fruit.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I'm so glad you bought this up because when I
was researching it, I have reached my free limit. Oh
the boneup a teat magazine. And then there was another
article that was like I was haunted by what happened here,
and I couldn't read that one either, So I was like,
what what happened? What took place in this?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
So thank you Lord any anytime?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah good?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
And yeah, it's this is one of those things that
I really wish that we could travel for this one,
because I would really love to go to like ninety
eight different Hello Hello places and talk to everyone possible
about all of the influences that they've had and that
they've seen, like their grandparents having, and I mean we
(26:27):
do have, we do have great little pockets of Filipino
culture here in Atlanta, and so we can totally make
this hallow hollow thing happen for you, Annie.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yes, and I would like to. In a strange way,
it reminded me of back when we used to do
videos and I went on my free of putting way
too much like topics in my frozen yogurt. Although this
would be way better, but like having the like multiple
textures and colors and all of that stuff. I think
(26:56):
I would really really like it because I'm somebody who
likes I like a variety of textures. Yeah, like a
variety of flavors. So I yeah, I would like to
make it happen. I think I would be really into it.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah. Every every bite is a fun little surprise. It's
just like, oh what am I getting in here?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Oh cool? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah yeah. Although I've read strong opinions about like how
many ingredients it's appropriate to layer within a single hollow hollow.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I did too, I did two, and I read strong
opinions about like what the final texture should be after
you mix it?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Oh yeah yeah, which again we love strong opinions.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
But it was funny because I haven't had it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Oh wow, yeah you tell me?
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Is that right? Wrong? Is it just a reference. I
don't know, but yeah, this was a This was a
really interesting one and I would love to hear. I've
basically read when I was research this. You can make
it at home, but it's not like the easiest thing.
But if you have the ingredients, it's not that it's difficult.
It's more than ingredients.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for for sure, right, Like it's worthwhile
to get out to a grosser that has the appropriate
fruit or canned goods that you want to use in it.
And if you don't have an ice shaver, don't try.
Don't it's not it's not crush it's not a crushed
(28:30):
ice dessert. It's a shaved ice dessert. So yes, get
an ice shaver.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Just get an ice shaver.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
That's that's it.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Well, listeners, if you've ever made it, if you have
thoughts about it, if you have memories of it, oh yes,
please let us know. But I believe that's what we
have to say about Hollow Hollow for now.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
It is. We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and were going to get into that as soon as
we get back from one more quick break for a
word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And we're back. Thank you, sponsor. Yes, thank you, and
we're back with Listener.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Mix.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I do think the process of mixing is also a
very can be a very rewarding process.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Oh yeah, you're you're the creator in this, In this
single blast, you.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Know, like the color might change. Yeah, I'm a big
I'm a big fan of mixing things up. I just
to ask my mom to specifically mix up the spaghetti
sauce just because I liked it so much. I'm into
it still.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I still go rogues like I like, I don't know.
Sometimes I very specifically eat like a little like a
little like I want to taste the individual.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Flavors and things. I think both there's space for boat. Yeah, yeah,
I agree, because sometimes I do that too. Wow. Michael wrote,
I have a story you may find amusing about this
last Listener mail. I was driving my friend Kate around
(30:29):
and we were listening to you guys together, as I
had recently discovered that she was also a fan of Savor.
We got to listen her mail and you started reading
my mail, and of course I'm always shocked to hear it,
but I didn't say anything. He, on the other hand,
had no idea. I got to watch her face first
become inquisitive and then confused. She later said it felt
(30:50):
like she was waking up from a dream and she said, wait,
who piea on a geary? Didn't you make that? And
suddenly the realization and hit her as if she just
put a dozen sour Patch candies in her mouth and
her brain was exploding from shock. It was hilarious to
watch confusion transform into excitement. Oh my god, my god,
(31:13):
that's you. They're reading your listener mail. I almost died
laugh Anyway, I also wanted to mention from the Bone
Marrow episode that I'm a fourth generation Taiwanese cook. My
great grandfather was a famous banquet chef, my grandmother was
a culinary instructor, my mother the same, and now me.
(31:38):
We have a family Taiwanese braised beef noodle soup recipe
passed down through the generations. We use beef shank and
hunks of beef tendon, slow braised for the better part
of the day in a broth. We continue adding to
and using for years at a time. One of the
big things that sets our recipe apart is that I
make ours with copious amounts of roasted beef our bone
(32:00):
to flavor the broth, so all that mouth feel is
raised to a higher level, which a latinous bone marrow
interspersed with the hunks of tender beef shank and soft tendon.
If you ever make a Taiwanese beef noodle soup, I
highly recommend doing it with the bone and marrow, specifically
hunting down lateral cut bone in beef shank intinted for
(32:23):
also buco. Oh wow, oh my mouth is watering. Oh no, oh,
my goodness.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
I have never had this dish and now I need
it immediately.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yes, I do as well. This is an emergency savor emergency.
I want it desperately.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Even though it's like ninety three degrees right now.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I don't care. I want it all. Eat a good
bone marrow soup at anytime.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
But also, high Kate, We're glad that we could totally
freak you out.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
That yeah, that's sort of our part of our whole
thing is freaking you out.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
So yeah, well go oh heck mm.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Hmmmm oh I'm gonna be like dreaming about this soup. Okay,
all right, Tracy wrote, when I first listened to the
Potato Salad episode, I thought about writing in with my
mom's recipe, but totally forgot about it. Then I went
to a cookout and had Irish potato salad for the
first time. The folks hosting the cookout are from Ireland
and turned me on to something I had never thought of,
(33:40):
mashed potatoes as the bass. The salad tasted a lot
like Southern potato salad with a mustard mayo dressing and
was served cold. When I asked the host why she
made it this way, she explained that it was how
she grew up eating it in Ireland, and that she
was skeptical of most American potato salad because the cubed
potatoes were often not cooked all the way through. She
said to us to reacid potatoes peeled. It was really
(34:02):
yummy and interesting. I wonder if you have any Irich
listeners who can weigh in onto the recipes. Growing up,
my mom would make a lovely German potato salad and
a cold potato salad. I can't find the recipes for either,
but I can do the cold salad for memory. The
proportions are a choose your own adventure, but I have
included suggestions. Okay, prep the potatoes, red potatoes, quartered, and
(34:26):
boiled until forked tender, starting in cold, lightly salted water.
Drain the potatoes and coat them with a generous amount
of salt. Refrigerate in a colander overnight. This is a
kind of potatoes dry brine if you will. And this
is the secret. Potatoes can take a lot of salt.
I use kosher, but my mom always used table salt
to make the salad. The dressing is simply Helmans or
(34:47):
Best Foods. Light mayo, not miracle whip, not full fat mayo.
The helmands with the light blue lid. The olive oil
ones are good too, but don't tell me mom. Mix
the potatoes with a few chopp hard boiled eggs, maybe
one per two people, and a quarter cup of celery,
chopped per person. Toss in a light coating of the mayo.
(35:07):
It should not be gloopy, but just enough moisture to
make it a salad garnish with a good sprinkled black
pepper and paprika over the top to make it pretty.
I've had many riffs and variations over the years, but
this is really straightforward and brings back lots of fun memories.
Enjoy bone Marrow. As I listened to the episode. I
couldn't help but think of Trevor Noah. In his book
(35:29):
Born a Crime, he talks about going to a fancy
restaurant and being served bone marrow as a delicacy, but
that it brought back memories of being really, really poor.
In the rabbit episode, you shared a stat about the
income brackets of people who eat rabbits. Either you're eating
in a fine dining setting, or you hunted it and
that's all you have. I think bone marrow might be
the same. I'm including a section from Noah's book where
(35:51):
he explains quote the butcher sold bones too. We called
them soup bones, but they were actually labeled dog bones
in the store. Would cook them for their dogs as
a treat. Whenever times were really tough, would fall back
on dog bones. My mom would boil them for soup,
would suck the marrow out of them. Sucking marrow out
of bones is a skill poor people learn early. I'll
(36:12):
never forget the first time I went to a fancy
restaurant as a grown man and someone told me, you
have to try the bone marrow. It's such a delicacy,
it's divine. They ordered it, the waiter brought it out
and I was like, dog bones, motherfucker, I was not impressed.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
That's such a good point. Would ruse up a lot.
How often things that were used just to survive weren't fancy. Yeah,
bones weren't expensive.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
No, would never get to the table of a fancy
person because they were busy eating whatever. The fine cuts
of meat were considered at the time.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yes, and then for whatever reason, it become something that
is fancy, and then the price grows.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, and now you can't even get oxtail anymore, because yes.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Your macaroni and cheese is fifteen dollars. You're not sure
why it happens all of the time, but bone mare
is definitely a great example, because I feel like, at
least in my memory growing up, it wasn't bone marrow,
but we did a lot of the bones from things
we would put into your like turnip greens or whatever.
(37:33):
Oh sure, yeah, And it was more of a it
wasn't a like, oh, we're being fancy. It was more like,
let's give this a bit more nutrition, or give this
more that make this last a bit longer.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, let's squeeze out every little bit of flavor and
worth that we can from the thing. That we have
purchased or hunted or whatever it is that it is.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, yes, exactly exactly, and I think yeah, Bone Mare
was excellent example of that. Also, I am very very intrigued.
I hope some other listeners write in Irish listeners are
or maybe even countered this potato salad because I've never
(38:18):
really considered using mash potatoes as the bass.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Certainly like a partial mash is what's going on in
Korean and Japanese style potato salads and so I but
I'm I'm not sure how mashed this mash is.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, yeah, because a partial mash, yes, but a like
full mash that's new to me.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
I mean I still eat that.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Oh yeah, potatoes great.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Right again again the potato episode a potato salad episode. Yeah,
I just want to eat potatoes.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Yeah yeah, And I will say this recipe sounds great.
And I do love how you have several differing, it
seems secret opinions from your mom. That's excellent.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
I love that, and I love I love Michael that
you wrote too about your about your your parents and
grandparents and great grandparents, and that's all fabulous.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah, it's always great when you all share your your
family stories with us and history with us and those memories.
So thank you so much to both of these listeners
for writing in. If you would like to write into us,
you can our emails hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
We're also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook,
and Instagram at saver pod and we do hope to
hear from you. Savor is production by Heart Radio. For
more podcasts my Heart Radio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Thanks as always to our superproducers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard.
Thanks to you for listening, and we hope that lots
more good things are coming your way
Hello, and welcome to Savor production of iHeartRadio. I'm Annie
Reese and I'm.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
More in Vocal Bam and today we have an episode
for you about Hollow Hollow Yes, which.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I have never heard of this.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Oh, oh my goodness, it is so good. This was
an episode so full of cravings for me. I love
Filipino food. I actually had hallow hollow a first at
a local Malaysian restaurant years ago. I went there like
kind of a lot and they started giving me this
free like to go cup after I'd paid my tab,
(00:42):
which they kept. They kept little to go cups of
hallow Hello and like a little side freezer. And I yeah,
the first time I had it, I was like, what
is going on? What is going on in this dessert?
And then I was like, this is the best dessert.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
It does sound like a really lovely medley of like
textures and flavors and even in some cases colors. Oh yes,
oh yes, yeah yeah. So I'm I'm very I would
love to try.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So we have to go now to go find it.
Yeah oh yeah. Heat of summer absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yes, Well, speaking of, was there any particular reason this
was on your mind?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
For?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Heat of summer. Yeah, I guess it had been on
my list for a while and I felt like it
was an appropriate time.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I agree. I agree. It's very very warm right now,
and I'm in my closet studio, which means I have
pulled out the stops. I won't go into specifics of
what that means, okay, of staying cool as ice packs.
(01:55):
It's mostly ice packs? Oh wow? Yeah yeah, yeah, yes,
Well you can see our past episodes on we haven't
done ice cream. I don't think we've done Sundays. Yeah,
(02:15):
and we've done ice cream adjacent thing. Sure, we've talked
about shave ice, but I don't think we've done an
episode on that either. Jackfruit, Yeah, I have done an
episode on I think, oh my brain, I've definitely done
(02:36):
an episode on ice.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yes, maybe, like like gelato and Sherbit.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Are oh pretty close. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Also bubble Tea ties in here.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yes, Yes, there's a there's a lot of a lot
of things that touch in Yeah. Well, I guess that
brings us to our question. I guess it does. Hollow
hollow What is it?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, hollow hollow is a type of chilled dessert that
is a mix or layering of many different elements that
can include lots of things, but typically you've got shaved ice,
cubes of flavored gelatine, cubes of leche flawn, evaporated milk
or sweetened condensed milk, fruit, either fresh or frozen or
(03:26):
in syrup or in jam format, sweet beans or sweet
bean paste, maybe some like tapioca or other types of jelly, pearls,
scoop of ice cream, and some kind of like crispy
crunchy topping sprinkled on, often served layered up in a
tall glass and eaten with a long handled spoon, either
like at the end of the meal or more likely
(03:46):
like alone as a snack. It is a lot. It
is brightly colored and fun and just all of these
like different textures and flavors, fruity and creamy and rich
and refreshing and sweet and smooth and bouncy all at
the same time. Just sort of whimsical and a little
bit weird on purpose and sort of feels like it
(04:09):
shouldn't work, but it just really does. It's like a
it's like a kid's party in a glass, like like
a really good one, you know, like with a bounce
house and a swimming pool, and then like an ice
cream truck comes by.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, that does sound lovely, right.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I want to go to that kids. I want to
throw that kid's party, not really for kids, for like me,
I know, my adult in heavy quotation marks friends.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Uh So everyone who likes hollow Hollow has kind of
specific ingredients that they like in it. The possibilities, as
you may be getting the idea, are pretty endless. Shaved
ice is the common denominator, but everything else is sort
of like whatever you have or or whatever you want.
(05:01):
And y'all, I've like red recipes that use frozen coconut
water instead of regular water, or maybe like watermelon ice
or something like that. So even that shaved ice base
is not a totally firm base. Okay. The dish is
from the Philippines, and so the traditional ingredients are from
there or like otherwise ended up there. But within Filipino
(05:23):
culture there are a lot of like regional and personal takes.
The name hollow hollow literally means mix mix in Tagalag
like mixes, and a noun so likes like mixture. The
overall flavor profile is sweet, but folks do not shy
away from savory or salty or spicy additions, and so
(05:46):
what follows is not a comprehensive list of potential ingredients.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
And if I miss your favorite, do write in. If
I say something that you think is totally wrong, you
can write in two. But I'm just reporting the facts.
I'm not saying that you need to have it in there.
You do whatever you want to you. I am not
the arbiter of that. Nor do I want to be
too big. Too big, Yeah, gonna reduce my aspirations to podcasting. Okay,
(06:18):
So the fruit category jackfruit is common, not the firm,
unripe type that you might have in like vegetarian barbecue,
but rather the ripe, soft, almost sort of custardy type
that tastes sort of like a like tropical bubblegum. Other
popular fruits include bananas or ripe plantains, melon, sugar, palm fruit,
macapono coconut, which is like soft and sort of jelly
(06:41):
like when it's fresh, mango cooked corn kernels. To obtain
a soft texture in your fruit, and to also get
a little bit of sauce out into the mix, canned
fruit in syrup is often used, or you can cook
your own fresh fruit down with a little bit of
sugar syrup and then cool it before you put it
in the beans. If you are unfamiliar with sweetened beans
(07:05):
or bean pastes in desserts, this is a preparation of
cooked beans and sugar syrup, and they go sort of
like rich and pasty, thick and tender, kind of like
peanut butter and jelly at the same time. Small red
mung beans, which I know by the Japanese term at
zooki beans, are really common, but I've also seen white
mung beans and other types of beans as well, like chickpeas.
(07:28):
Then you've got your jelly layer or addition, rather think
like gelatin desserts like jello chopped up into small pieces.
Pandan flavor, which is green in color and tastes like
slightly grassy coconut vanilla, is pretty popular because it's colorful
and tasty. Coconut or coconut milk jellies are common too.
(07:49):
I've seen just plain sweetened agar acre. I think it's
agar as well, the texture being as important as the
flavor in the jelly addition here pearls okay. I've seen
big ones or small ones used made of tapioca or sago,
but all cooked to a kind of like springy jelly
(08:11):
sort of texture in sugar syrup. Sometimes other flavorings like
pandan ice creams Ube is maybe the most popular because
ube is this type of bright purple yam, and so
the ice cream made from it is this really stunning
violet color, which is so pretty. I've also seen avocado, mango,
(08:34):
coconut pandant queso, which is like a salted cheese flavor,
and regular old vanilla. You're a leche flun. This is
a type of cream caramel, like a steamed custard that's
set in a sauce made from caramelaed sugar. Yeah, and
man like, adding a slicer chunk of this is kind
of a hollow, hollow power move. It's like, hey, I
(08:58):
made this whole other disease, and I'm putting a little
on top of my dessert because I can. Okay, Although
pretty much all of these ingredients are like that, So
then we've got our sauces. So either evaporated or sweetened
condensed milk are common, but I've also seen fruit sauces
(09:22):
or caramel sauces, or like a sweetened milk flavored with
macha or taro ube jam. The texture of sort of
like a like a thick apple. Butter is also common,
though I guess that rides the line between like a
topping versus a sauce. Then your crispy crunchy toppings. Glutenous
rice flakes or corn flakes are common. I've also seen
(09:42):
puffed rice sort of like rice crispies used, or toasted
coconut flakes or chocolate wafer cookie do not come at me. Yes,
some of these additions are controversial. There's a whole conversation
about like how much is too much to add to
hollow hollow, and like what's too extravagant for a sort
of homie dessert, and what flavors or textures are too
(10:06):
far from the traditional and what's sort of like only
there for the Instagram factor.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, yeah, and I know we're going to talk about
this a bit more in the history section, but I
did run into that a lot where it was like, hmmm, oh,
because I've never had it, so I'm sort of like,
I don't know, you.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Like, I don't know what does go in there.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, people have opinions, and we love we do.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
But yeah, so whatever it is, you pile everything together
in a big old glass or cup. People do have
opinions on how to layer stuff in there, but generally,
like the dense fruit and beans go on the bottom,
the ice goes in above it, and then the creamy
stuff goes on top. Generally, to eat it, you might
mix it all up or kind of like scoop out
individual bits and bites of different layers. As the shape
(11:00):
ice melts, it all becomes like a sort of like
a like a melted like milkshake or like melting ice
cream Sunday sort of gig ah, it's really good. And yeah,
it can be a snack in a plastic cup from
a roadside cart, or something you make at home totally
from scratch or totally from cans, or a really fancy
(11:22):
restaurant dessert or anything in between. It is pretty nostalgic
for lots of people who grew.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Up with it. Yes, wow, what about the nutritional treats?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Are nice?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Treats? Are nice? Treats?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Are nice? Drink some water, eat, eat a vegetable that
has not been candied.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Ooh oh, listeners, please write it with your hollow hollow
recipes or yes, yes, he is, that would be amazing.
We have a couple. We have a number four years.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
A number ish sure. So as of the early two thousands,
this popular Chinese Filipino fast food chain called Chow King
was seeing twenty five percent of its gross sales from
Hollow Hollow every summer. Like the rest of the year,
there's sales of hollow Hollow accounted for ten percent of
(12:24):
their gross and it just shot up to twenty five
percent every summer. During the hottest part of the year,
which there which in the Philippines is March to May ish,
any individual store would be selling from five hundred to
fifteen hundred servings per day per day.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
And the chain has had like like two hundred and
fifty stores in the Philippines at that point.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
It's a good hot weather treat. Even without having had it,
I'm like.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I get it icy and delicious. Yeah, I couldn't find
I couldn't find any festivals specifically devoted to hallow Hello.
Like it's sort of in the way that like there's
not really a festival devoted to like cotton candy, Like
it just shows up places. But I have seen a
couple of Filipino American like culture festivals with hollow Hollow
(13:24):
in the name. There is in fact a music fest
in the Orlando area. That looks awesome. So you guys
have been write in and tell us.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yes, please please do. But this brings us to quite
the history section oofta.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yes, yes, and we are going to get into that
as soon as we get back from a quick break
ForWord for our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Back, thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
So. Lots of dishes tell the story of all of
the culinary influences of a place, and Hollow Hollow is
definitely one of those.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yes. Many of these ingredients showcase the history of the
Philippines and the influence of colonization. Ice from the US,
the roots of the dessert from Japan, and the la
cheflon from the Spanish.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Okay, So the Spanish colonized and mostly controlled the Philippines
from the mid fifteen hundreds through eighteen ninety eight.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yes, and before the Philippines were colonized, they frequently traded
with Japan.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, like there were Japanese immigrants living there when the
Spanish arrived.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Most historians trace the history of Hollow Hollow back to
two desserts from Japan, one called kakigori and one called mitsumame.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yes, and so okay kakagory is a category of shaved
ice desserts, and it's mammae is a category of jelly
based desserts. They both have a lot of iterations, but
modernly cucagory often involves toppings like flavored syrups, sweet and
condensed milk, sweet beans and fruit over shaved ice. And
then it's a maame is more like a sweet dessert
(15:21):
salad kind of situation, with like cubes of often flavored jellies,
sweet beans or bean paste, pieces of fruit, and some
kind of sugary syrup as a sauce. Both probably didn't
look like that back in the eighteen hundreds, though, but
they were developing in various pockets of Japanese culture by
the middle to end of the Edo period, like the
(15:43):
eighteen hundreds ish, and we're popular by the turn of
the twentieth century. We'll have to come back to both
in different episodes.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Meanwhile, canned milk products came up in the mid eighteen
hundreds as well. Cucagory might have been made of fresh
milk at times, but evaporated or sweetened condensed milk were
both hitting the global scene right around the same time, right.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And both of these desserts likely made it from Japan
to the Philippines through trade and immigration. And of course,
as we always say, those things travel, those like taste travel.
Japanese folks brought their taste with them, including khaki gory.
As always, it was adapted based on taste, traditions and
(16:30):
ingredients in the area. Soon, some Japanese people started opening
small businesses to sell these versions of khaki gory.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah. Small businesses like restaurants were a pretty common way
for Japanese Filipinos to make a living at the time,
and in Tagalig a word for dzuki beans or mung
beans is mungo, and so sweetened mungo found their way
into the shaved ice desserts that people were making. The
desserts were sometimes called a mungo on yelo conialo, being Spanish.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
For with ice right, and these Japanese folks often called
the shops mongo yah, and they quickly grew popular in Manila.
As the popularity grew, so did the ingredients. The list
of ingredients yeah, fruit in simple syrup, cube jellies, and
ube jam.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Although it's hard to really discern where and when each
of those came in, but sure ingredients were growing, popularity
was growing at the time. There was some ice being
shipped into the Philippines from international ice harvesting businesses like
we talked about in our episode Frederick Tutor's by the
(17:45):
mid eighteen hundreds, and probably some ice coming down from
Japan to maybe it was definitely a fancy thing ice
in warm climates until the turn of the century at least.
The introduction of le cheiflan is a little bit of
a curveball historically speaking, like, okay, custards go way back
(18:08):
in European history. Certainly the Spanish were making custard by
the time they started colonizing the Philippines, but let chiflann
or crime caramel like, which is baked using a steambath
and with the caramelized sugar on the top. That's a
more recent, like late eighteen hundreds iteration of custard. So
(18:29):
I would say it's a possibility that working class Filipinos
around the turn of the century learned about the dish
from fancy European style kitchens that they were employed in,
or that well to do Filipinos learned about it from
fancy European style dinners that they were attending either way.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Both ways.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Perhaps lechiflan eventually became a very popular like holiday fiesta
party dessert and eventually eventually made its way into Hollow Hollow,
But I could I could not put a date on
it for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Though.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
The idea of a like refreshing afternoon snack called ameerenda
was installed by the Spanish during the eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Yes, I've got that. Yeah. And something else that played
an important role in the evolution of Hollow Hollow happened
after America's occupation of the Philippines beginning in eighteen ninety eight.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Right, that's when the US annexed the Philippines from Spain
following the Spanish American War. Note that this was not
a smooth transition, but that's a different podcast, probably different episode.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah. Yeah. At the time, there wasn't a lot of
ice available there, and the US began exporting ice to
increase the supply. Later, in nineteen oh two, America built
Manila's first ice plant, making it far easier when it
came to anything that required ice, including Hollow Hollow.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah. These Japanese frozen dessert shops and soda fountains really
thrived though on the business of relatively wealthy customers. It
would be a few decades before frozen desserts would have
been in reach for lower earners. And as Americans colonized
the area, they also brought in a lot of canned goods,
(20:28):
which became a bit of a status symbol for well
off Filipinos at the time, who started to repurpose things
like canned corn in their own cuisine. There's a story
that this American official's wife told in her letters to
friends and family from the time how she was like
a little scandalized when a wealthy local served her canned
(20:50):
corn with powdered sugar at his dinner table, Like, oh,
what a silly thing to do. But this sort of
thing shows that, you know, people were taking these these
goods that were novel to them and being creative and
personalizing them. And of course, like there is a whole
other conversation to be had about the power dynamics of
canned foods and colonization and all of that. But I
(21:15):
love when people get excited about something that's so cool
and like find a new way to use it, Like
Hekiya put powdered chugger on there that sounds delicious.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Absolutely be creative, it's great.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Anyway, uh okay. Moving forward into the nineteen twenties, a
few technological like slash modernization things were happening, so home
refrigerators began to hit the market and the price of
ice started to drop. Japanese ice shaving machines also started
to hit the market, and there was a growing middle class.
(21:52):
There was also a push for better sanitation practices and
regulation of ice after a couple of like typhoid and
colera outbreaks traced back to improper ice storage. By this point,
in nineteen twenty two, health Department records show that there
was a popular shaved or scraped ice dish it's called
(22:12):
scraped ice in the literature that they called the mixed
food popularly named hollow Hollow. So we don't have more
like fun evidence, but it is clear that by this
time nineteen twenty two, Filipinos had adopted kakagori and started
making it their own up to an including the name.
(22:33):
Around the same time, the premiere Filipino ice cream brand,
Magnolia was getting big. There were just lots of frozen
dessert shops around Manila through the nineteen thirties, but the
Philippines were a major site of warfare during World War Two,
with the Japanese military invading and occupying parts of the
islands and waging naval battles and the surrounding waters. It
(22:56):
was really bloody on all sides, with lots of law
of Filipino resistance and civilian life, and a good bit
of destruction in places like Manila.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yes and the mango yash shops all but disappeared from
the Philippines with the evacuation of the Japanese after World
War Two, and this led to a wave of even
more creativity when it came to ingredients, some of which
did cause controversy continued to cause controversy. I think this
is when ube became a popular ingredient in some regional
(23:31):
varieties of hollow hollow. I couldn't find specifics, but certainly
this is when our modern take on ice cream really
took off. So if you're looking at ube, ice cream
and ice cream was reintroduced to the Philippines during the
post for American occupation.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, like think of all the ice cream parlor culture
of the late forties through the fifties. The US ceded
control of the Philippines to independent rule in nineteen forty,
but remained a heavy military and economic influence. So yeah,
they were still bringing products in, but there was also
right this local culture for frozen treats rooted already. Eventually,
(24:15):
Magnolia came out with local flavors now considered classics like
ube and sweetcorn and mango. Post war Filipino owned food
stands and restaurants started springing up, including ones that featured
some of those old Soda Fountain favorites like shaved ice
desserts including hollow hollow, and some of them, like Little Kiapo,
(24:37):
are still around today. The dessert had made its way
to Oakland, California, a suburb of San Francisco, with a
wave of post war Filipino immigrants by the nineteen fifties.
There's a nineteen fifty eight newspaper write up recommending that
you try it if you're in the Oakland area. In
the seventies and eighties, Filipino fast food joints Jolly Bee
(24:57):
and Chow King got started, both with how Hollow on
the menu.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
And hollow hollows started to become really popular in the
US in twenty thirteen ish, as did Filipino cuisine at large.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah. In twenty sixteen, speaking of a BONEU Petite magazine
really pissed off the Internet with an ode to Hollow
Hollow that included some like really confusing substitutions like popcorn
instead of those little like rice crispies and gummy bears
in place of tapioca pearls or like sugar palm fruit.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I'm so glad you bought this up because when I
was researching it, I have reached my free limit. Oh
the boneup a teat magazine. And then there was another
article that was like I was haunted by what happened here,
and I couldn't read that one either, So I was like,
what what happened? What took place in this?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
So thank you Lord any anytime?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah good?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
And yeah, it's this is one of those things that
I really wish that we could travel for this one,
because I would really love to go to like ninety
eight different Hello Hello places and talk to everyone possible
about all of the influences that they've had and that
they've seen, like their grandparents having, and I mean we
(26:27):
do have, we do have great little pockets of Filipino
culture here in Atlanta, and so we can totally make
this hallow hollow thing happen for you, Annie.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yes, and I would like to. In a strange way,
it reminded me of back when we used to do
videos and I went on my free of putting way
too much like topics in my frozen yogurt. Although this
would be way better, but like having the like multiple
textures and colors and all of that stuff. I think
(26:56):
I would really really like it because I'm somebody who
likes I like a variety of textures. Yeah, like a
variety of flavors. So I yeah, I would like to
make it happen. I think I would be really into it.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah. Every every bite is a fun little surprise. It's
just like, oh what am I getting in here?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Oh cool? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah yeah. Although I've read strong opinions about like how
many ingredients it's appropriate to layer within a single hollow hollow.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I did too, I did two, and I read strong
opinions about like what the final texture should be after
you mix it?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Oh yeah yeah, which again we love strong opinions.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
But it was funny because I haven't had it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Oh wow, yeah you tell me?
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Is that right? Wrong? Is it just a reference. I
don't know, but yeah, this was a This was a
really interesting one and I would love to hear. I've
basically read when I was research this. You can make
it at home, but it's not like the easiest thing.
But if you have the ingredients, it's not that it's difficult.
It's more than ingredients.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for for sure, right, Like it's worthwhile
to get out to a grosser that has the appropriate
fruit or canned goods that you want to use in it.
And if you don't have an ice shaver, don't try.
Don't it's not it's not crush it's not a crushed
(28:30):
ice dessert. It's a shaved ice dessert. So yes, get
an ice shaver.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Just get an ice shaver.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
That's that's it.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Well, listeners, if you've ever made it, if you have
thoughts about it, if you have memories of it, oh yes,
please let us know. But I believe that's what we
have to say about Hollow Hollow for now.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
It is. We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and were going to get into that as soon as
we get back from one more quick break for a
word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And we're back. Thank you, sponsor. Yes, thank you, and
we're back with Listener.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Mix.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I do think the process of mixing is also a
very can be a very rewarding process.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Oh yeah, you're you're the creator in this, In this
single blast, you.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Know, like the color might change. Yeah, I'm a big
I'm a big fan of mixing things up. I just
to ask my mom to specifically mix up the spaghetti
sauce just because I liked it so much. I'm into
it still.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I still go rogues like I like, I don't know.
Sometimes I very specifically eat like a little like a
little like I want to taste the individual.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Flavors and things. I think both there's space for boat. Yeah, yeah,
I agree, because sometimes I do that too. Wow. Michael wrote,
I have a story you may find amusing about this
last Listener mail. I was driving my friend Kate around
(30:29):
and we were listening to you guys together, as I
had recently discovered that she was also a fan of Savor.
We got to listen her mail and you started reading
my mail, and of course I'm always shocked to hear it,
but I didn't say anything. He, on the other hand,
had no idea. I got to watch her face first
become inquisitive and then confused. She later said it felt
(30:50):
like she was waking up from a dream and she said, wait,
who piea on a geary? Didn't you make that? And
suddenly the realization and hit her as if she just
put a dozen sour Patch candies in her mouth and
her brain was exploding from shock. It was hilarious to
watch confusion transform into excitement. Oh my god, my god,
(31:13):
that's you. They're reading your listener mail. I almost died
laugh Anyway, I also wanted to mention from the Bone
Marrow episode that I'm a fourth generation Taiwanese cook. My
great grandfather was a famous banquet chef, my grandmother was
a culinary instructor, my mother the same, and now me.
(31:38):
We have a family Taiwanese braised beef noodle soup recipe
passed down through the generations. We use beef shank and
hunks of beef tendon, slow braised for the better part
of the day in a broth. We continue adding to
and using for years at a time. One of the
big things that sets our recipe apart is that I
make ours with copious amounts of roasted beef our bone
(32:00):
to flavor the broth, so all that mouth feel is
raised to a higher level, which a latinous bone marrow
interspersed with the hunks of tender beef shank and soft tendon.
If you ever make a Taiwanese beef noodle soup, I
highly recommend doing it with the bone and marrow, specifically
hunting down lateral cut bone in beef shank intinted for
(32:23):
also buco. Oh wow, oh my mouth is watering. Oh no, oh,
my goodness.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
I have never had this dish and now I need
it immediately.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yes, I do as well. This is an emergency savor emergency.
I want it desperately.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Even though it's like ninety three degrees right now.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I don't care. I want it all. Eat a good
bone marrow soup at anytime.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
But also, high Kate, We're glad that we could totally
freak you out.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
That yeah, that's sort of our part of our whole
thing is freaking you out.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
So yeah, well go oh heck mm.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Hmmmm oh I'm gonna be like dreaming about this soup. Okay,
all right, Tracy wrote, when I first listened to the
Potato Salad episode, I thought about writing in with my
mom's recipe, but totally forgot about it. Then I went
to a cookout and had Irish potato salad for the
first time. The folks hosting the cookout are from Ireland
and turned me on to something I had never thought of,
(33:40):
mashed potatoes as the bass. The salad tasted a lot
like Southern potato salad with a mustard mayo dressing and
was served cold. When I asked the host why she
made it this way, she explained that it was how
she grew up eating it in Ireland, and that she
was skeptical of most American potato salad because the cubed
potatoes were often not cooked all the way through. She
said to us to reacid potatoes peeled. It was really
(34:02):
yummy and interesting. I wonder if you have any Irich
listeners who can weigh in onto the recipes. Growing up,
my mom would make a lovely German potato salad and
a cold potato salad. I can't find the recipes for either,
but I can do the cold salad for memory. The
proportions are a choose your own adventure, but I have
included suggestions. Okay, prep the potatoes, red potatoes, quartered, and
(34:26):
boiled until forked tender, starting in cold, lightly salted water.
Drain the potatoes and coat them with a generous amount
of salt. Refrigerate in a colander overnight. This is a
kind of potatoes dry brine if you will. And this
is the secret. Potatoes can take a lot of salt.
I use kosher, but my mom always used table salt
to make the salad. The dressing is simply Helmans or
(34:47):
Best Foods. Light mayo, not miracle whip, not full fat mayo.
The helmands with the light blue lid. The olive oil
ones are good too, but don't tell me mom. Mix
the potatoes with a few chopp hard boiled eggs, maybe
one per two people, and a quarter cup of celery,
chopped per person. Toss in a light coating of the mayo.
(35:07):
It should not be gloopy, but just enough moisture to
make it a salad garnish with a good sprinkled black
pepper and paprika over the top to make it pretty.
I've had many riffs and variations over the years, but
this is really straightforward and brings back lots of fun memories.
Enjoy bone Marrow. As I listened to the episode. I
couldn't help but think of Trevor Noah. In his book
(35:29):
Born a Crime, he talks about going to a fancy
restaurant and being served bone marrow as a delicacy, but
that it brought back memories of being really, really poor.
In the rabbit episode, you shared a stat about the
income brackets of people who eat rabbits. Either you're eating
in a fine dining setting, or you hunted it and
that's all you have. I think bone marrow might be
the same. I'm including a section from Noah's book where
(35:51):
he explains quote the butcher sold bones too. We called
them soup bones, but they were actually labeled dog bones
in the store. Would cook them for their dogs as
a treat. Whenever times were really tough, would fall back
on dog bones. My mom would boil them for soup,
would suck the marrow out of them. Sucking marrow out
of bones is a skill poor people learn early. I'll
(36:12):
never forget the first time I went to a fancy
restaurant as a grown man and someone told me, you
have to try the bone marrow. It's such a delicacy,
it's divine. They ordered it, the waiter brought it out
and I was like, dog bones, motherfucker, I was not impressed.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
That's such a good point. Would ruse up a lot.
How often things that were used just to survive weren't fancy. Yeah,
bones weren't expensive.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
No, would never get to the table of a fancy
person because they were busy eating whatever. The fine cuts
of meat were considered at the time.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yes, and then for whatever reason, it become something that
is fancy, and then the price grows.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, and now you can't even get oxtail anymore, because yes.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Your macaroni and cheese is fifteen dollars. You're not sure
why it happens all of the time, but bone mare
is definitely a great example, because I feel like, at
least in my memory growing up, it wasn't bone marrow,
but we did a lot of the bones from things
we would put into your like turnip greens or whatever.
(37:33):
Oh sure, yeah, And it was more of a it
wasn't a like, oh, we're being fancy. It was more like,
let's give this a bit more nutrition, or give this
more that make this last a bit longer.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, let's squeeze out every little bit of flavor and
worth that we can from the thing. That we have
purchased or hunted or whatever it is that it is.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, yes, exactly exactly, and I think yeah, Bone Mare
was excellent example of that. Also, I am very very intrigued.
I hope some other listeners write in Irish listeners are
or maybe even countered this potato salad because I've never
(38:18):
really considered using mash potatoes as the bass.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Certainly like a partial mash is what's going on in
Korean and Japanese style potato salads and so I but
I'm I'm not sure how mashed this mash is.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, yeah, because a partial mash, yes, but a like
full mash that's new to me.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
I mean I still eat that.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Oh yeah, potatoes great.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Right again again the potato episode a potato salad episode. Yeah,
I just want to eat potatoes.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Yeah yeah, And I will say this recipe sounds great.
And I do love how you have several differing, it
seems secret opinions from your mom. That's excellent.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
I love that, and I love I love Michael that
you wrote too about your about your your parents and
grandparents and great grandparents, and that's all fabulous.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah, it's always great when you all share your your
family stories with us and history with us and those memories.
So thank you so much to both of these listeners
for writing in. If you would like to write into us,
you can our emails hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
We're also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook,
and Instagram at saver pod and we do hope to
hear from you. Savor is production by Heart Radio. For
more podcasts my Heart Radio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Thanks as always to our superproducers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard.
Thanks to you for listening, and we hope that lots
more good things are coming your way
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Dylan Fagan
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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