April 24, 2024 • 40 mins
These cookies can be light or dense, made with shredded coconut or ground almonds, fancy or plain -- and their history is closely tied to pasta. Anney and Lauren dig into the history and many iterations of macaroons.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, and welcome to Saber Protection of iHeartRadio. I'm Annie Reese.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm moren vocal Bob, and today we have an
episode for you about macaroons.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yes, and I'm very excited about this, but it did
give me a lot of headaches because of the spelling.
Even though I typed in the right thing, Google was
very adamant that I meant macron macaron.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Very yes, very adamant.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I had the same issue. Even when I put the
word in quoting marks. It was like, but really, are
you talking about macarn Yes, it was like nope, nope.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
But that being said, one see that episode that we
did on them, but to their stories are very related. Yes,
it was a headache for me. Yes, I shall ask
you the question, though I think I know the answer, Lauren.
(01:09):
Was there any reason this was on your mind? Yes,
As we are.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Recording this passover, the Jewish holiday Passover is nearly upon
us and mere or mere hours away from starting, and
so I was trying to think of a thematic episode
and we had just done an episode about fish, So
I was like, maybe gefilter fish is another is another day,
(01:38):
but what about macaroons? Because I certainly grew up with
every Passover Satyr. Dessert may have included other things, but
certainly included a paperboard can of manishevit's coconut macaroons, like
(01:59):
I can I can smell, I can smell that sentence
like that. It's a very distinct and nostalgic memory for me,
and as I think it is for probably a lot
of American Jewish humans.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So yep, what's up with that? Why that thing? That's weird? Yeah,
I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I didn't know about the connection with passover because I
think I told this story on our Macron episode.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I actually really prefer macaroons. Really. I love coconut. I
love coconut.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
It is one of my I believe I've joked about
this before. I believe it is the last remaining topic
in my top ten favorite foods.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
We haven't done. Is I've been avoiding it? Yeah? Yeah, Oh,
it's a huge topic. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I've been avoiding it too. But it's one of my
very favorite foods.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
And I have a lot of friends who don't like
coconut because of the texture.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
It's almost always texture that they bring up.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I get that, but as a kid, I didn't have
coconut very often, So it was a very special to me.
It is associated with spring because my mom would make those,
she'd make like a coconut cupcakes that had like the
coconut supposed to be the grass the grass.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, So it had like a special nostalgic place in
my heart too, even though there wasn't like a religious
thing around it or anything. It was just it was
pretty rare in my life, and so it became something
that I loved and when I had it, like when
my dad would make ambrosia, so I talked about this too.
(03:47):
He would get a fresh coconut, he would give me
like the coconut milk, and he would give me like
slices of the fresh coconut. It just felt so special
and it was not a common occurrence. So yeah, I loved,
love to love my rudes. And that's not to say
like I didn't have macron either, but I have I
feel like almond flavor was much more present in my
(04:08):
life than coconut.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Sure, So I'm I'm excited to be talking at.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
We do.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
We will have to do that that coconut episode.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yes, I think the problem is that might have to
be a two parter, just because it has so many
like the coconut shell has this whole history, and the
the milk and the oil and the whole.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yeah, there's just a lot of situations there. I think
that there's a couple different things going on that, right, Yes, yes,
this is why I've.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Been avoiding it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, I'm like it's too much, too much, and I
don't want to think about it. I want to do
something easy and nothing.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Ever, it's always a lie, Lauren, But we definitely will
do We will do coconut. I have to complete my list,
but for to day, yes, not that you can. Yes,
see your episode on macron Marzapan, chiros Yoki Mac and Cheese.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Surprisingly enough, Yeah, yeah, which is quite a list of
related episodes.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
It is.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
There were more that I had on here, and I
was like, I'm just going to confuse people at this point.
So yeah, this is a good sampling. But yes, I
guess that brings us to our question. Yeah, macaroons, what
are they?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Well, A macaroon is a type of cookie, a small,
sweetened baked good traditionally made without wheat flour. It gets
its structure and chew from egg whites, sugar, and ground
or shredded culinary nuts like almonds or dried coconut. Macaroons
may be further flavored with stuff like vanilla or orange zest,
(06:03):
or mixings like chopped dried fruit or cocoa powder or
chocolate chips, or after they're baked, they might be dipped
in chocolate or or made with an indentation and then
given like a like a fruit compoke jam type filling. Yeah,
and they can range, like really range from from hyper
sweet and dense and chewy to light and airy and
(06:25):
also chewy, depending on the ingredients and baking method and
whether they're fresh or industrially produced. They're served room temperature,
often for a dessert along with coffee or tea, or
as a snack, often surrounding holidays. Yeah there, you know,
they're a flowerless cookie from before gluten free was a buzzword.
With all of the potential pitfalls of gluten free cookies
(06:48):
like the range y'all, it is hard to ascribe a
single feeling to like what it's like to eat macarons,
because they do range so wildly. But like, but they
do share this like indulgent nutty sweetness and creaminess like
you know, you know, when you're on a beach and
(07:10):
you're in dappled shade and a warm little circle of
sun breaks through on your skin. It's like it's like
eating that.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Oh, they're very refreshing, which is odd to me because
they do they have a thickness to them, but there's
something about them that's really bright.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, and refreshing. That Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
That that that good nutty, especially the coconut kind, that
good nutty flavor. Yeah, so nice, so nice.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I rewrote this section like three times, you guys, because
because I couldn't decide how scientifically to break down the
concept of macaroons. But what I decided is that macaroons
exist on an axis. One variable is how you treat
(08:11):
your egg whites, and the other variable is what your
other main ingredient is. All right, So if you whip
your egg whites, you're going to have a more delicate cookie,
and if you don't, you're going to have something denser,
and then you've got your nuts versus coconut situation. All right,
(08:32):
So this is your axis. Your most delicate version of
a macaroon is going to be whipped egg whites mixed
with fine ground nuts. This will make for like a
melti chewy confection, not unlike a French style macaron. They're
just typically served singly, not in a sandwich in the
macaroon sense. You achieve this texture by beating those egg
(08:55):
whites to a stiff foam to provide lift and structure
to the batter, and then gently fold in your other ingredients.
That being said, you can totally fold shredded coconut into
a stiff egg white foam just you know, like like
as Annie mentioned, like dried coconut, it has a texture.
It's always going to be chewy and dense unto itself,
(09:16):
so that's going to create like a less delicate, chunkier
kind of cookie, yeah, for something more cake like or
like traditional wheat flour cookie. Like you just don't whip
the egg whites, which means the egg is acting as
a binder. That'll make ground nut type macaroons heftier and
(09:37):
coconut macaroons almost like it like a candy cluster kind
of situation. Those coconut types that are denser often call
for sweet and condensed milk or sweet and condensed coconut milk,
and you can make this type thumbprint style with an
indentation in the middle of each cookie to be filled
with jam or whatever. When any type of these cookies
(09:58):
are made fresh, you're gonna get these lovely toasty nut
flavors on the outside of the cookie from the nuts
or the coconut browning in the oven. So good, so nice.
Also small home baking tip for the whipped egg kind,
add a pinch of salt while you're whipping your egg whites.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
It's going to help. A.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
It's going to help the proteins and the egg whites unfold,
and B it's going to help them stabilize when they
reform into peaks.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
So we'll pinch of salt. We'll pinch of salt. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Always, flavorings do tend to fall along the nut versus
coconut line. The ground nut types being more delicate in general,
can shove more delicate flavors like citrus zest or orange,
flower water or rose water or cardamom. They might be
topped with a whole nut as a kind of a
(10:52):
decoration and or fun. Contrast, in texture, coconut is a
little bit more aggressive of a flavor, and again, treads
of it do have a lot of shoe so coconut
types can go a little bit more ham pork pun
not intended, so that's where you're going to get your
like chunky mix ins and kind of like sillier flavors
like pina colada or mocha or rocky road stuff like that.
(11:16):
And it is the dense coconut type that are mass
produced because they can stand up to being packaged and shipped,
and those mass produced ones tend to be very sweet
and kind of a little bit more like flat in
flavored to be honest, but that's fun.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
In the US, this type in particular is especially associated
with the holiday Passover for a couple reasons that we're
going to get into in the history, but like very
basically observing this holiday includes not eating grain products for
the week that it lasts. And also this like one
food manufacturing brand made a super successful campaign of marketing
(11:55):
these grain free cookies in the mid century, so a
lot of like especially middle class Eastern European descended households
here in the States, that particular brand, Mani Shevits, is
this classic nostalgic, arguably.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Beloved Passover tradition. Mm hmmm, and I have to shout out.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
This is so separate, but I have to shout out
this article that I read on the Verge about Microsoft
co pilot Okay, for the phrase arguably beloved because it
was talking about Clippy. It was talking about Clippy being
(12:42):
arguably beloved, and that phrase just really stuck with me.
I was like, arguably beloved.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I like aspire to that.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, that's good, you know in your obituary arguably beloved.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, but also it's so about it, so perfect for
Clippy and so perfect for these particular type of macaroons.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Mmm mm hmm. Anyway, macaroons.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, outside of the US and in like Middle Eastern
descended households here, I understand that the ground nut types
are the most common types of macaroons and are also
eaten during other Jewish holidays like Perham. But yeah, y'all
rite in let us know. Also before we move on,
(13:34):
fun fact that I couldn't fit in anywhere else I
was reminded as I was doing my googling. But in
the food industry, dried shreaded coconut is often referred to
as desiccated coconut, which is great because it makes me
think of mummies.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Yeah. Yeah, oh, you've opened up a whole thought recess.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Oh no, sorry, and or you're welcome. No, no, this
is a good thing. It's not good now, I've got
to table it for later. But okay, yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Like a coconut mummy could join our team on the dunker.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Oh yes, yes, we need to do that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I've been itching for like a a time to act
and be creative.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
So shit, we also just need to do another food
fairy tale episode.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yes, yes, absolutely, okay, Well in the meantime, a food
showy ostensibly a food show.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
What about the nutrition?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Oh, it really depends, uh, you know, generally speaking, sugar
is a treat. Treats are nice. These usually have a
decent bit of protein and I'm from the nut content.
You know, they can be coloquially dense with fats and sugar.
Watch your portion sizes. Again, Treats are nice.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
They are indeed, I would say I feel like the
macaroons I've had in my life are pretty comparatively filling
to other similar treats. Maybe something else in their category,
but that can just be me.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Those those those dense ones are.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Quite dense and so right, I feel I feel like
having like one you're kind of like, you know, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, it's like halfway in you're like, wow, You're like,
this is still another hour. Not in a bad way,
but I'm actually kind of full. Yeah. Well, I guess
we don't have any numbers for you.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
We don't. I tried.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
So I was sure. I was sure that Manishevitz was
going to brag about how many heck and mac karoons
they sell every year, and it's I read a lot
of interviews with Manischevitz like brand humans, and yeah, they
weren't talent, they just weren't telling hmmm.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Well, I think we can safely say they're doing well, Yes,
Manischevits with this product doing well.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yes, I'm just now realizing that I didn't look up
world records. So maybe we'll have an update for you
at some point.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Oh, a macaroon update. I like that.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Well, the history is a fun, if not convoluted one.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
It is, it is, and we are going to get
into that. But first we're going to take a quick
break forward from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
And we're back.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, and okay, So, as
I said, a lot of the history of the macaroon
does get mixed up and or tied together with macarons
and pasta. So this is one of those episodes where
it's almost like we're it's the caterpillar and then we'll
birth the butterfly. We're gonna have to start with something else,
(17:32):
but then we'll get to.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
We're gonna get to it. Yeah, it's all going to
come together. We promise, Yes, I promise, So stick with
me for a second.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
According to many sources, to get to the history of
the macaroon, we have to go back to the eight
hundred CE when Arab troops from Africa arrived in Sicily.
They introduced this region of Italy to many new foods
that we've talked about before, like pistachios, lemons, and rice.
That's just to name a few. They also introduced a
whole wealth of desserts that incorporated nuts, including dough wrapped
(18:05):
almond paste treats, and these suites themselves have a long
history of being eaten at Persian celebrations for centuries.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
So we've talked about those two. All of this was
going on.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
In Sicily and other parts of Europe with contact with
Muslim culture, like parts of Spain. These desserts were adapted
based on taste methods and available ingredients. In the simplest explanation,
this is where historians believe we got things like marzipan. Again,
you can see that episode for more information, but very briefly.
(18:43):
A lot of sources also assert that the macroome was
invented at of France Monastery in seven hundred and ninety
one CE. However, others say that they were probably invented
in Italy and that they were popular there by the
eighth and century. These early iterations primarily called for almond
(19:04):
paste and egg whites. This was also another thing where
countries like to fight over who came up with something first.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
But yes, if you had them and you liked them,
you probably put them. You probably did a thing like this.
It just makes sense to me. I'm like, yeah, it does. Yeah,
but anyway, but anyway.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Another piece of this puzzle is the history of pasta
in Sicily.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Surprised me, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Records from the eleven hundred CE indicate that many viewed
Sicily as an important center for pasta. Their pasta was
exported not only throughout Europe, but along trade routes to
many cultures at the time, pastas could really encompass.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
A whole range of things.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
They could be fried, they could be baked, they could
be boiled. They could be sweet or savory. Savory Cheese
pastas were popular, as were a sweet almond paste variety
that people could enjoy during lint when cheese and meat
were off the table. Many of these pastas had a
cheese version and a generally sweet, non cheese version.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Oh so all on board.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Somewhere sometime and all of this we get the ancestor
of modern words like macaroni, macron, and macaroon. The exact
origins aren't clear, but historians think that it referenced two
separate but related things, one a sweet nyoki and the
(20:37):
other something closer to marzavan.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah. One theory goes that all of these words root
from a specifically Venetian term for a fine paste, being macarone. Interestingly,
we also get the English word pasta from the Latin
term pasta literally meaning paye dough.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yes, yes, okay, So if we focus on the sweet
branch of this word and related words. By the fifteen hundreds,
these almond paste sweets had made their way throughout Italy, Spain, France,
and England. Beginning in at least the mid fifteen fifties,
(21:24):
we see the word macaron popping up in the classic
French work Gargantula and pentagrule, yes, clearly referring.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
To a dessert.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Not too long later, the first instances in the written
record of macaroon started showing up in English sources. And
this was something that happened to a lot of French
words that were adopted into the English language, adding an
extra O to French words that end in all. I
had a really fun time looking at other examples like balloua.
(21:55):
But yes, it was a thing. Yes, So by the
seventeenth century, the distinction between savory pasta and almond based
cookie had been solidified. However, we still had macaron and
macaroon on sweet bas side. But in the early days
(22:16):
it was mainly a difference of spelling, not of taste
or ingredients. It wasn't until the nineteenth century that we
started to see a differentiation, and it had to do
with a lot of things, but one of the main
drivers was the popularity of exotic imported coconut in America.
At the time, coconut found its way into all kinds
(22:40):
of things, custards, pies, cakes, and yes, ambrosia. And as
part of this we start to get the first recipes
for coconut macaroons appearing in Jewish cookbooks because yeah, truths
like this were popular in the Jewish community because they
didn't contain flour, making them a good option for things.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Also don't necessarily have to have dairy in them, so
good for serving at the end of a meal that
contains meat.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yes. For instance, the eighteen seventy one cookbook The Jewish
Cookery Book by Esther Levi included a recipe for macaboons
that swapped out the typical almond paste with shredded coconut. However,
Italian Jewish people had already been making almond based mecharans
for quite a while. Other Jewish communities in Europe started
(23:29):
making them too, and experimenting with ingredients and preparations. Potato
starch was a popular choice. From what I read that
being said. For American Jewish people at this time, coconut
was often out of reach. In the eighteen eighties, that
started to change when the US and the British invented
technology that could shred and dry coconut so that it
(23:52):
could be shipped in large quantities. Companies of course, left
at the chance of capitalizing and commercializing this product, including
marketing towards Eastern European Jews arriving in the US around
this time. In coconut, even though it was more affordable
and readily available in shredded form in the US, still
held on to that symbol of success for those that
(24:16):
had seen it in cookbooks and hadn't been able to
afford it.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Now they could. So it was it's still even though
it was more available, it was still a little bit aspirational. Yeah, sure, exactly.
It still felt fancy.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, there was this whole situation that this one American
business dude got into with coconuts in the eighteen nineties.
He accepted he was a flour miller, and he accepted
a shipment of coconuts in payment for flour, and so
he just had all these coconuts. It basically led to
shredded coconut being more available.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
In the United States.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, we really do have to do that coconut episode
that we've been avoiding.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I love this.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
We should just have like Lauren's short summaries of something.
This one business dude got into a coconut situation.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
That's all. That's all you get, that's all you need
to know. Yeah, that's the basics. Here we are, that's that.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, that's the basics. Okay. Yes, So within a couple
of decades, recipes for the coconut variety of macaroons made
their way into many American cookbooks. This type of macaroon
indeed became a popular item during passover for Jewish people.
Jewish owned stores started marketing and selling coconut macaroons for
(25:34):
passover in the US, like in the nineteen tens. In
the early days, it was almost half the price of
the almond counterpart two, so people would get that, get
the coconut one. By the nineteen thirties, US manufacturers of
Matsa started selling coconut and almond macaroons.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, and you can see our Matza episode for more
about that. I think Straits was the was the first
macaroon cellar, but Menishevits picked up pretty quickly as well.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Rights, But it took a minute for the commercial store
bought variety to catch on in America though, because at
the time macarons were largely baked at home.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Sure, yes, this changed during.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
World War two, when Manischevitz, a manufacturer of commercial macaroons,
really invested in advertising calling for their macaroons to be
shipped to Jewish soldiers overseas, primarily almond macaroons since wartime
made getting coconut difficult. But this was a very, very
(26:39):
successful campaign. It was so successful that within a decade
they shifted in a lot of people's minds. Macaroons did
from something you bake at home to something you buy
in a store.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
This was the era when metal tins were introduced by
the Way Rights.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
From what I read, there is both a very fond
nostalgia for the caned variety, but also a resurgence in
baking them yourself. The article that I was reading this
in was from the nineties, so listeners write in let
us know. I recently had a younger person called the
(27:18):
nineties historical. So oh I'm wrestling with that, but please.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Cool. Yeah made me feel very old. Thank you, Annie.
I have to pass it on. I have to share this,
like the ring. Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. Yeah,
I would.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I would say that that definitely applies to today still
and like I just found out doing this reading that
Manishevit's changed their packaging from those cylindrical paperboard canisters to
plastic like resealable bags in twenty twenty three. And I'm
(28:02):
a little shook. I'm a little bit shook by this.
I don't know how I feel. I don't know how
I feel.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Okay, well, we'll give you some space and grace, Okay,
thank you, to process your emotions, and then we can
come back and revisit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, it makes me a little bit itchy thinking about
not a canister of macaroons. But you know, and this
was apparently a conversation that they had. I do also
want to point out that that that article that you uh,
that you called out from from the nineties where you
were reading about this this very situation was an article
(28:44):
in the New York Times, and the headline on it
was the fifth question that passover have a macaroon? Yeah,
which I think is accurate.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
I think that that's an accurate portrayal of the facts.
Mm hmmm hmm. I love this. Do you have a
favorite type, Lauren? Do you have a favorite I was
just playing coconut, just plain No, I'm sorry. I didn't
mean to offend you.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Look I I want, I want everyone to be happy
with their own choices. But but for me, the classic
is yeah, this manufactured, incredibly dense, just plain coconut macaron.
I'm willing to entertain the concept of other types, but.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
It's very gracious.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
And I certainly love like almond flower cookies, like that's that's.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
One of my go tos.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I I love I love making almond flower stuff. Like
it's just it's I love almonds. It's great.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
But you know, I don't know. This is what I
grew up with. Yeah, it nostalgia, and.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I think, like, oh yeah, a lot of things that
I read very mustalgic. I think for me, like when
I think of the macaron, I think of coconut. I
don't think of almond. I don't think of chocolate tipped.
I think of I think I think of what you're thinking,
which is again is very funny to me. It's group
(30:26):
very differently. But I did Yeah, I'm glad we did
this episode.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
I didn't know that there. I thought macaroo was.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
That yeah, yeah, yeah, oh man, I I would I
loved reading different recipes for them, and and especially from
like a rite, like a lot of Middle Eastern Jewish households,
the different types of almond preparations or other nuts. You're
branching out into other nuts and incorporating like pecans or pistachios,
(30:58):
and getting some of those kind of classic flavorings like orange,
flower water, rose water involved, Like I really want to
make a version like that now.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
So yeah, but that's delicious.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
And yes, listeners, please let us know if you have
any of these, any recipes or any experience with this.
But I think that's what we have to say for now.
About macaroons, we'll obviously do a revisit.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, yeah, yes, we do already have some listener mail
prepared for you. But first we've got one more quick
break for word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, and
we're back with listener.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I always think of spring. I think of spring when
I think of coconut based desserts. Okay, yeah, sure, even though,
as I've said before in the show, alm and Joy
is one of my candies I must get at hellmen,
not a sponsor, but does show my love I do.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
I do love an almond joy. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
So many of you listeners have written about Mountain Dew.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
And that's amazing, and we have two letters to read
about mount today. I'm so happy about this. Bart wrote,
greetings again from Ireland. I think you must be spying
on me, because your timing on the Mountain Dew episode
is nothing short of spooky.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
I like to.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Drink exotic sugar free soft drinks as a treat on
my walcome on the days I work in the office
rather than from home, and it seems there is some
kind of bottleneck or policy by whoever Hortsea's things to
our little island, that there shall only ever be one.
First I fell in love with the lime flavored Pepsi Max.
(33:09):
Then it vanished, but zero sugar Doctor Pepper appeared in
his place, So I drank that for a while and
I have to say I loved it. Then it vanished
and the icon of Scottish soft drinks appeared instead, sugar
free urn Brew. Then a few weeks ago it vanished,
and I had nothing exotic for a while until this week,
(33:33):
when what should appear but an unnaturally colored sugar free
drink from America zero sugar Mountain Dew. Given its color,
I was dubious, but I'll try just about anything. Once
on the whole, I like it, but it has an
odd threshold effect. The first half of the bottle is delicious,
but the tartness of the citrus seems to build up,
(33:56):
and by the end of the five hundred millimeters bottle,
I naturally I feel sated, and I have no desire
for more. A handy feature, I have no doubt it
will soon manage too to be replaced by something else,
new and exciting. But until then I'll be enjoying my
little bottle of mountain Dew three times a week at
about five pm, all the way over here in Ireland.
(34:20):
I also wanted to say how much I loved the
recent introspective episode for your big anniversary. It was great
to hear the voices behind the scenes so US listeners
can really appreciate how super the producers really are. You
might like to know that I can't hear about fermented
foods without hearing an echoy bacteria in my head, and
(34:40):
once or twice I've said it out loud to some
puzzled looks from friends and colleagues. It could have been embarrassing,
but I just used it as an opportunity to plug
the show.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
All Thanks honestly same.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. I also I think we
should come back and talk about this, but we forgot
to talk about we used to do video save I
used to do video and there's some fun.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Fermentation facts in there.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
I meant to mention it in our anniversary special, but
I totally forgot.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Oh right, yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Because you said that
you had gone back and watched some of the some
of the videos that we used to do.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I get kind of nostalgic for some of them, just
because we met so many cool people. We get to
do cool things, equal things, and we had a good team.
So the footage looks amazing. Oh anyway, absolutely definitely want
to come back and talk about that. But Mountain Dew,
I okay, I love this. I love that you're trying
(35:46):
these new things that appear in your your local store,
and that Mountain dew. As someone who's never had it,
I believe you're I believe deeply it is a drink
like halfway and you're like, I'm good.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, You're like, this is delightful and I'm done.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
It's nothing to do with it's bad or something. I
don't like it anymore. It's more of just like this
was good, this was enough.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
I feel I feel that way about most sodas, to
be honest. Yeah, like I'm about halfway through a glass
and I'm kind of like, well it's great. Yeah, yeah,
it's about enough for me. Yeah yeah, that makes sense,
that makes sense. But I'm glad you're having a nice
It sounds like a nice time.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Yeah, good good weird soda.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Absolutely, I'm I'm so glad and or sorry Ireland.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
That we're sending you that.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Mm hm.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Oh, society, We've really done a thing here, okay, uh,
Jesse wrote, I kept waiting to hear you mention be
More Chill in the in Du episode, and when it
wrapped up, I came to the realization that you two
might not have actually seen this epic nineties nostalgia, nerdy,
absolutely ludicrous musical. B More Chill revolves around a kid who,
(37:13):
in order to no longer be bullied, buys a Squip
from a dealer at the Payless Shoes, which is a
computer implant that guarantees to make the user a cool kid.
The squip is activated by drinking a green mountain dew. Mayhemonsues,
and the second act revolves around trying to figure out
how to deactivate the squip before it gains world domination spoilers.
(37:35):
The key all along is that Red Mountain Dew turns
it off. But Red Mountain Dew in this universe was
discontinued a decade prior. Luckily, the one non cool still
a nerd kid just happens to have a Code Red
lying around, and Michael saves the day. It is awful
and wonderful and absolutely guilty pleasure. And the concession stand
(37:57):
at the theater has their specialty cocktails beginning of the
show as regular mountain do, and during intermission is Code
Red Mountain Dew. Just had to share in case you
ever get the opportunity to see it. Some regional theaters
do still perform it.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Yes, I want to see this badly, right. No, I've
never heard of that, and it sounds amazing. Oh my gosh,
it is so good. I love that.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
It's like green Go Mountain Dew turns it on cold
red emergency red.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Yeah, Yeah, that's the key. It was all there. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Also just like nineties nerd nineties nerd stuff around, things
like this is just really funny and bad.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, and local theater is one of my very favorite things.
I am pretty deeply involved in local Atlanta theater. Uh
and so this this seems just aces all around.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Oh my Palless shoes shows up a dealer at Paliss Shoes.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
This is excellent. I must I must see it. Also,
squip is just a really good word.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Squip is really good. I also I enjoyed that there's
an alternate universe in here.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Yeah yeah, but this is where.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Right Yeah, Red Mountain Dew got discontinued.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Oh bye, there's a lot to love about this. There's
a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
There, truly is there?
Speaker 3 (39:44):
Truly is? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
So thanks for bringing that, putting that on our radar,
And thanks to both of these listeners for writing in.
If you would like to write in, you can our
email us hello at saberpod dot com.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
We're also social media.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at
saver pod and we do hope to hear from you.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Save is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and
Andrew Howard. They really are super thanks to you for listening,
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way.
Hello, and welcome to Saber Protection of iHeartRadio. I'm Annie Reese.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm moren vocal Bob, and today we have an
episode for you about macaroons.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yes, and I'm very excited about this, but it did
give me a lot of headaches because of the spelling.
Even though I typed in the right thing, Google was
very adamant that I meant macron macaron.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Very yes, very adamant.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I had the same issue. Even when I put the
word in quoting marks. It was like, but really, are
you talking about macarn Yes, it was like nope, nope.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
But that being said, one see that episode that we
did on them, but to their stories are very related. Yes,
it was a headache for me. Yes, I shall ask
you the question, though I think I know the answer, Lauren.
(01:09):
Was there any reason this was on your mind? Yes,
As we are.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Recording this passover, the Jewish holiday Passover is nearly upon
us and mere or mere hours away from starting, and
so I was trying to think of a thematic episode
and we had just done an episode about fish, So
I was like, maybe gefilter fish is another is another day,
(01:38):
but what about macaroons? Because I certainly grew up with
every Passover Satyr. Dessert may have included other things, but
certainly included a paperboard can of manishevit's coconut macaroons, like
(01:59):
I can I can smell, I can smell that sentence
like that. It's a very distinct and nostalgic memory for me,
and as I think it is for probably a lot
of American Jewish humans.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So yep, what's up with that? Why that thing? That's weird? Yeah,
I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I didn't know about the connection with passover because I
think I told this story on our Macron episode.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I actually really prefer macaroons. Really. I love coconut. I
love coconut.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
It is one of my I believe I've joked about
this before. I believe it is the last remaining topic
in my top ten favorite foods.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
We haven't done. Is I've been avoiding it? Yeah? Yeah, Oh,
it's a huge topic. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I've been avoiding it too. But it's one of my
very favorite foods.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
And I have a lot of friends who don't like
coconut because of the texture.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
It's almost always texture that they bring up.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I get that, but as a kid, I didn't have
coconut very often, So it was a very special to me.
It is associated with spring because my mom would make those,
she'd make like a coconut cupcakes that had like the
coconut supposed to be the grass the grass.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, So it had like a special nostalgic place in
my heart too, even though there wasn't like a religious
thing around it or anything. It was just it was
pretty rare in my life, and so it became something
that I loved and when I had it, like when
my dad would make ambrosia, so I talked about this too.
(03:47):
He would get a fresh coconut, he would give me
like the coconut milk, and he would give me like
slices of the fresh coconut. It just felt so special
and it was not a common occurrence. So yeah, I loved,
love to love my rudes. And that's not to say
like I didn't have macron either, but I have I
feel like almond flavor was much more present in my
(04:08):
life than coconut.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Sure, So I'm I'm excited to be talking at.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
We do.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
We will have to do that that coconut episode.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yes, I think the problem is that might have to
be a two parter, just because it has so many
like the coconut shell has this whole history, and the
the milk and the oil and the whole.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yeah, there's just a lot of situations there. I think
that there's a couple different things going on that, right, Yes, yes,
this is why I've.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Been avoiding it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, I'm like it's too much, too much, and I
don't want to think about it. I want to do
something easy and nothing.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Ever, it's always a lie, Lauren, But we definitely will
do We will do coconut. I have to complete my list,
but for to day, yes, not that you can. Yes,
see your episode on macron Marzapan, chiros Yoki Mac and Cheese.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Surprisingly enough, Yeah, yeah, which is quite a list of
related episodes.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
It is.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
There were more that I had on here, and I
was like, I'm just going to confuse people at this point.
So yeah, this is a good sampling. But yes, I
guess that brings us to our question. Yeah, macaroons, what
are they?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Well, A macaroon is a type of cookie, a small,
sweetened baked good traditionally made without wheat flour. It gets
its structure and chew from egg whites, sugar, and ground
or shredded culinary nuts like almonds or dried coconut. Macaroons
may be further flavored with stuff like vanilla or orange zest,
(06:03):
or mixings like chopped dried fruit or cocoa powder or
chocolate chips, or after they're baked, they might be dipped
in chocolate or or made with an indentation and then
given like a like a fruit compoke jam type filling. Yeah,
and they can range, like really range from from hyper
sweet and dense and chewy to light and airy and
(06:25):
also chewy, depending on the ingredients and baking method and
whether they're fresh or industrially produced. They're served room temperature,
often for a dessert along with coffee or tea, or
as a snack, often surrounding holidays. Yeah there, you know,
they're a flowerless cookie from before gluten free was a buzzword.
With all of the potential pitfalls of gluten free cookies
(06:48):
like the range y'all, it is hard to ascribe a
single feeling to like what it's like to eat macarons,
because they do range so wildly. But like, but they
do share this like indulgent nutty sweetness and creaminess like
you know, you know, when you're on a beach and
(07:10):
you're in dappled shade and a warm little circle of
sun breaks through on your skin. It's like it's like
eating that.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Oh, they're very refreshing, which is odd to me because
they do they have a thickness to them, but there's
something about them that's really bright.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, and refreshing. That Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
That that that good nutty, especially the coconut kind, that
good nutty flavor. Yeah, so nice, so nice.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I rewrote this section like three times, you guys, because
because I couldn't decide how scientifically to break down the
concept of macaroons. But what I decided is that macaroons
exist on an axis. One variable is how you treat
(08:11):
your egg whites, and the other variable is what your
other main ingredient is. All right, So if you whip
your egg whites, you're going to have a more delicate cookie,
and if you don't, you're going to have something denser,
and then you've got your nuts versus coconut situation. All right,
(08:32):
So this is your axis. Your most delicate version of
a macaroon is going to be whipped egg whites mixed
with fine ground nuts. This will make for like a
melti chewy confection, not unlike a French style macaron. They're
just typically served singly, not in a sandwich in the
macaroon sense. You achieve this texture by beating those egg
(08:55):
whites to a stiff foam to provide lift and structure
to the batter, and then gently fold in your other ingredients.
That being said, you can totally fold shredded coconut into
a stiff egg white foam just you know, like like
as Annie mentioned, like dried coconut, it has a texture.
It's always going to be chewy and dense unto itself,
(09:16):
so that's going to create like a less delicate, chunkier
kind of cookie, yeah, for something more cake like or
like traditional wheat flour cookie. Like you just don't whip
the egg whites, which means the egg is acting as
a binder. That'll make ground nut type macaroons heftier and
(09:37):
coconut macaroons almost like it like a candy cluster kind
of situation. Those coconut types that are denser often call
for sweet and condensed milk or sweet and condensed coconut milk,
and you can make this type thumbprint style with an
indentation in the middle of each cookie to be filled
with jam or whatever. When any type of these cookies
(09:58):
are made fresh, you're gonna get these lovely toasty nut
flavors on the outside of the cookie from the nuts
or the coconut browning in the oven. So good, so nice.
Also small home baking tip for the whipped egg kind,
add a pinch of salt while you're whipping your egg whites.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
It's going to help. A.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
It's going to help the proteins and the egg whites unfold,
and B it's going to help them stabilize when they
reform into peaks.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
So we'll pinch of salt. We'll pinch of salt. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Always, flavorings do tend to fall along the nut versus
coconut line. The ground nut types being more delicate in general,
can shove more delicate flavors like citrus zest or orange,
flower water or rose water or cardamom. They might be
topped with a whole nut as a kind of a
(10:52):
decoration and or fun. Contrast, in texture, coconut is a
little bit more aggressive of a flavor, and again, treads
of it do have a lot of shoe so coconut
types can go a little bit more ham pork pun
not intended, so that's where you're going to get your
like chunky mix ins and kind of like sillier flavors
like pina colada or mocha or rocky road stuff like that.
(11:16):
And it is the dense coconut type that are mass
produced because they can stand up to being packaged and shipped,
and those mass produced ones tend to be very sweet
and kind of a little bit more like flat in
flavored to be honest, but that's fun.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
In the US, this type in particular is especially associated
with the holiday Passover for a couple reasons that we're
going to get into in the history, but like very
basically observing this holiday includes not eating grain products for
the week that it lasts. And also this like one
food manufacturing brand made a super successful campaign of marketing
(11:55):
these grain free cookies in the mid century, so a
lot of like especially middle class Eastern European descended households
here in the States, that particular brand, Mani Shevits, is
this classic nostalgic, arguably.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Beloved Passover tradition. Mm hmmm, and I have to shout out.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
This is so separate, but I have to shout out
this article that I read on the Verge about Microsoft
co pilot Okay, for the phrase arguably beloved because it
was talking about Clippy. It was talking about Clippy being
(12:42):
arguably beloved, and that phrase just really stuck with me.
I was like, arguably beloved.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I like aspire to that.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, that's good, you know in your obituary arguably beloved.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, but also it's so about it, so perfect for
Clippy and so perfect for these particular type of macaroons.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Mmm mm hmm. Anyway, macaroons.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, outside of the US and in like Middle Eastern
descended households here, I understand that the ground nut types
are the most common types of macaroons and are also
eaten during other Jewish holidays like Perham. But yeah, y'all
rite in let us know. Also before we move on,
(13:34):
fun fact that I couldn't fit in anywhere else I
was reminded as I was doing my googling. But in
the food industry, dried shreaded coconut is often referred to
as desiccated coconut, which is great because it makes me
think of mummies.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Yeah. Yeah, oh, you've opened up a whole thought recess.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Oh no, sorry, and or you're welcome. No, no, this
is a good thing. It's not good now, I've got
to table it for later. But okay, yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Like a coconut mummy could join our team on the dunker.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Oh yes, yes, we need to do that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I've been itching for like a a time to act
and be creative.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
So shit, we also just need to do another food
fairy tale episode.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yes, yes, absolutely, okay, Well in the meantime, a food
showy ostensibly a food show.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
What about the nutrition?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Oh, it really depends, uh, you know, generally speaking, sugar
is a treat. Treats are nice. These usually have a
decent bit of protein and I'm from the nut content.
You know, they can be coloquially dense with fats and sugar.
Watch your portion sizes. Again, Treats are nice.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
They are indeed, I would say I feel like the
macaroons I've had in my life are pretty comparatively filling
to other similar treats. Maybe something else in their category,
but that can just be me.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Those those those dense ones are.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Quite dense and so right, I feel I feel like
having like one you're kind of like, you know, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, it's like halfway in you're like, wow, You're like,
this is still another hour. Not in a bad way,
but I'm actually kind of full. Yeah. Well, I guess
we don't have any numbers for you.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
We don't. I tried.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
So I was sure. I was sure that Manishevitz was
going to brag about how many heck and mac karoons
they sell every year, and it's I read a lot
of interviews with Manischevitz like brand humans, and yeah, they
weren't talent, they just weren't telling hmmm.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Well, I think we can safely say they're doing well, Yes,
Manischevits with this product doing well.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yes, I'm just now realizing that I didn't look up
world records. So maybe we'll have an update for you
at some point.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Oh, a macaroon update. I like that.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Well, the history is a fun, if not convoluted one.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
It is, it is, and we are going to get
into that. But first we're going to take a quick
break forward from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
And we're back.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, and okay, So, as
I said, a lot of the history of the macaroon
does get mixed up and or tied together with macarons
and pasta. So this is one of those episodes where
it's almost like we're it's the caterpillar and then we'll
birth the butterfly. We're gonna have to start with something else,
(17:32):
but then we'll get to.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
We're gonna get to it. Yeah, it's all going to
come together. We promise, Yes, I promise, So stick with
me for a second.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
According to many sources, to get to the history of
the macaroon, we have to go back to the eight
hundred CE when Arab troops from Africa arrived in Sicily.
They introduced this region of Italy to many new foods
that we've talked about before, like pistachios, lemons, and rice.
That's just to name a few. They also introduced a
whole wealth of desserts that incorporated nuts, including dough wrapped
(18:05):
almond paste treats, and these suites themselves have a long
history of being eaten at Persian celebrations for centuries.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
So we've talked about those two. All of this was
going on.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
In Sicily and other parts of Europe with contact with
Muslim culture, like parts of Spain. These desserts were adapted
based on taste methods and available ingredients. In the simplest explanation,
this is where historians believe we got things like marzipan. Again,
you can see that episode for more information, but very briefly.
(18:43):
A lot of sources also assert that the macroome was
invented at of France Monastery in seven hundred and ninety
one CE. However, others say that they were probably invented
in Italy and that they were popular there by the
eighth and century. These early iterations primarily called for almond
(19:04):
paste and egg whites. This was also another thing where
countries like to fight over who came up with something first.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
But yes, if you had them and you liked them,
you probably put them. You probably did a thing like this.
It just makes sense to me. I'm like, yeah, it does. Yeah,
but anyway, but anyway.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Another piece of this puzzle is the history of pasta
in Sicily.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Surprised me, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Records from the eleven hundred CE indicate that many viewed
Sicily as an important center for pasta. Their pasta was
exported not only throughout Europe, but along trade routes to
many cultures at the time, pastas could really encompass.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
A whole range of things.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
They could be fried, they could be baked, they could
be boiled. They could be sweet or savory. Savory Cheese
pastas were popular, as were a sweet almond paste variety
that people could enjoy during lint when cheese and meat
were off the table. Many of these pastas had a
cheese version and a generally sweet, non cheese version.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Oh so all on board.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Somewhere sometime and all of this we get the ancestor
of modern words like macaroni, macron, and macaroon. The exact
origins aren't clear, but historians think that it referenced two
separate but related things, one a sweet nyoki and the
(20:37):
other something closer to marzavan.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah. One theory goes that all of these words root
from a specifically Venetian term for a fine paste, being macarone. Interestingly,
we also get the English word pasta from the Latin
term pasta literally meaning paye dough.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yes, yes, okay, So if we focus on the sweet
branch of this word and related words. By the fifteen hundreds,
these almond paste sweets had made their way throughout Italy, Spain, France,
and England. Beginning in at least the mid fifteen fifties,
(21:24):
we see the word macaron popping up in the classic
French work Gargantula and pentagrule, yes, clearly referring.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
To a dessert.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Not too long later, the first instances in the written
record of macaroon started showing up in English sources. And
this was something that happened to a lot of French
words that were adopted into the English language, adding an
extra O to French words that end in all. I
had a really fun time looking at other examples like balloua.
(21:55):
But yes, it was a thing. Yes, So by the
seventeenth century, the distinction between savory pasta and almond based
cookie had been solidified. However, we still had macaron and
macaroon on sweet bas side. But in the early days
(22:16):
it was mainly a difference of spelling, not of taste
or ingredients. It wasn't until the nineteenth century that we
started to see a differentiation, and it had to do
with a lot of things, but one of the main
drivers was the popularity of exotic imported coconut in America.
At the time, coconut found its way into all kinds
(22:40):
of things, custards, pies, cakes, and yes, ambrosia. And as
part of this we start to get the first recipes
for coconut macaroons appearing in Jewish cookbooks because yeah, truths
like this were popular in the Jewish community because they
didn't contain flour, making them a good option for things.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Also don't necessarily have to have dairy in them, so
good for serving at the end of a meal that
contains meat.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yes. For instance, the eighteen seventy one cookbook The Jewish
Cookery Book by Esther Levi included a recipe for macaboons
that swapped out the typical almond paste with shredded coconut. However,
Italian Jewish people had already been making almond based mecharans
for quite a while. Other Jewish communities in Europe started
(23:29):
making them too, and experimenting with ingredients and preparations. Potato
starch was a popular choice. From what I read that
being said. For American Jewish people at this time, coconut
was often out of reach. In the eighteen eighties, that
started to change when the US and the British invented
technology that could shred and dry coconut so that it
(23:52):
could be shipped in large quantities. Companies of course, left
at the chance of capitalizing and commercializing this product, including
marketing towards Eastern European Jews arriving in the US around
this time. In coconut, even though it was more affordable
and readily available in shredded form in the US, still
held on to that symbol of success for those that
(24:16):
had seen it in cookbooks and hadn't been able to
afford it.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Now they could. So it was it's still even though
it was more available, it was still a little bit aspirational. Yeah, sure, exactly.
It still felt fancy.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, there was this whole situation that this one American
business dude got into with coconuts in the eighteen nineties.
He accepted he was a flour miller, and he accepted
a shipment of coconuts in payment for flour, and so
he just had all these coconuts. It basically led to
shredded coconut being more available.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
In the United States.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, we really do have to do that coconut episode
that we've been avoiding.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I love this.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
We should just have like Lauren's short summaries of something.
This one business dude got into a coconut situation.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
That's all. That's all you get, that's all you need
to know. Yeah, that's the basics. Here we are, that's that.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, that's the basics. Okay. Yes, So within a couple
of decades, recipes for the coconut variety of macaroons made
their way into many American cookbooks. This type of macaroon
indeed became a popular item during passover for Jewish people.
Jewish owned stores started marketing and selling coconut macaroons for
(25:34):
passover in the US, like in the nineteen tens. In
the early days, it was almost half the price of
the almond counterpart two, so people would get that, get
the coconut one. By the nineteen thirties, US manufacturers of
Matsa started selling coconut and almond macaroons.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, and you can see our Matza episode for more
about that. I think Straits was the was the first
macaroon cellar, but Menishevits picked up pretty quickly as well.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Rights, But it took a minute for the commercial store
bought variety to catch on in America though, because at
the time macarons were largely baked at home.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Sure, yes, this changed during.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
World War two, when Manischevitz, a manufacturer of commercial macaroons,
really invested in advertising calling for their macaroons to be
shipped to Jewish soldiers overseas, primarily almond macaroons since wartime
made getting coconut difficult. But this was a very, very
(26:39):
successful campaign. It was so successful that within a decade
they shifted in a lot of people's minds. Macaroons did
from something you bake at home to something you buy
in a store.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
This was the era when metal tins were introduced by
the Way Rights.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
From what I read, there is both a very fond
nostalgia for the caned variety, but also a resurgence in
baking them yourself. The article that I was reading this
in was from the nineties, so listeners write in let
us know. I recently had a younger person called the
(27:18):
nineties historical. So oh I'm wrestling with that, but please.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Cool. Yeah made me feel very old. Thank you, Annie.
I have to pass it on. I have to share this,
like the ring. Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. Yeah,
I would.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I would say that that definitely applies to today still
and like I just found out doing this reading that
Manishevit's changed their packaging from those cylindrical paperboard canisters to
plastic like resealable bags in twenty twenty three. And I'm
(28:02):
a little shook. I'm a little bit shook by this.
I don't know how I feel. I don't know how
I feel.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Okay, well, we'll give you some space and grace, Okay,
thank you, to process your emotions, and then we can
come back and revisit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, it makes me a little bit itchy thinking about
not a canister of macaroons. But you know, and this
was apparently a conversation that they had. I do also
want to point out that that that article that you uh,
that you called out from from the nineties where you
were reading about this this very situation was an article
(28:44):
in the New York Times, and the headline on it
was the fifth question that passover have a macaroon? Yeah,
which I think is accurate.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
I think that that's an accurate portrayal of the facts.
Mm hmmm hmm. I love this. Do you have a
favorite type, Lauren? Do you have a favorite I was
just playing coconut, just plain No, I'm sorry. I didn't
mean to offend you.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Look I I want, I want everyone to be happy
with their own choices. But but for me, the classic
is yeah, this manufactured, incredibly dense, just plain coconut macaron.
I'm willing to entertain the concept of other types, but.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
It's very gracious.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
And I certainly love like almond flower cookies, like that's that's.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
One of my go tos.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I I love I love making almond flower stuff. Like
it's just it's I love almonds. It's great.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
But you know, I don't know. This is what I
grew up with. Yeah, it nostalgia, and.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I think, like, oh yeah, a lot of things that
I read very mustalgic. I think for me, like when
I think of the macaron, I think of coconut. I
don't think of almond. I don't think of chocolate tipped.
I think of I think I think of what you're thinking,
which is again is very funny to me. It's group
(30:26):
very differently. But I did Yeah, I'm glad we did
this episode.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
I didn't know that there. I thought macaroo was.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
That yeah, yeah, yeah, oh man, I I would I
loved reading different recipes for them, and and especially from
like a rite, like a lot of Middle Eastern Jewish households,
the different types of almond preparations or other nuts. You're
branching out into other nuts and incorporating like pecans or pistachios,
(30:58):
and getting some of those kind of classic flavorings like orange,
flower water, rose water involved, Like I really want to
make a version like that now.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
So yeah, but that's delicious.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
And yes, listeners, please let us know if you have
any of these, any recipes or any experience with this.
But I think that's what we have to say for now.
About macaroons, we'll obviously do a revisit.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, yeah, yes, we do already have some listener mail
prepared for you. But first we've got one more quick
break for word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, and
we're back with listener.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I always think of spring. I think of spring when
I think of coconut based desserts. Okay, yeah, sure, even though,
as I've said before in the show, alm and Joy
is one of my candies I must get at hellmen,
not a sponsor, but does show my love I do.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
I do love an almond joy. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
So many of you listeners have written about Mountain Dew.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
And that's amazing, and we have two letters to read
about mount today. I'm so happy about this. Bart wrote,
greetings again from Ireland. I think you must be spying
on me, because your timing on the Mountain Dew episode
is nothing short of spooky.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
I like to.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Drink exotic sugar free soft drinks as a treat on
my walcome on the days I work in the office
rather than from home, and it seems there is some
kind of bottleneck or policy by whoever Hortsea's things to
our little island, that there shall only ever be one.
First I fell in love with the lime flavored Pepsi Max.
(33:09):
Then it vanished, but zero sugar Doctor Pepper appeared in
his place, So I drank that for a while and
I have to say I loved it. Then it vanished
and the icon of Scottish soft drinks appeared instead, sugar
free urn Brew. Then a few weeks ago it vanished,
and I had nothing exotic for a while until this week,
(33:33):
when what should appear but an unnaturally colored sugar free
drink from America zero sugar Mountain Dew. Given its color,
I was dubious, but I'll try just about anything. Once
on the whole, I like it, but it has an
odd threshold effect. The first half of the bottle is delicious,
but the tartness of the citrus seems to build up,
(33:56):
and by the end of the five hundred millimeters bottle,
I naturally I feel sated, and I have no desire
for more. A handy feature, I have no doubt it
will soon manage too to be replaced by something else,
new and exciting. But until then I'll be enjoying my
little bottle of mountain Dew three times a week at
about five pm, all the way over here in Ireland.
(34:20):
I also wanted to say how much I loved the
recent introspective episode for your big anniversary. It was great
to hear the voices behind the scenes so US listeners
can really appreciate how super the producers really are. You
might like to know that I can't hear about fermented
foods without hearing an echoy bacteria in my head, and
(34:40):
once or twice I've said it out loud to some
puzzled looks from friends and colleagues. It could have been embarrassing,
but I just used it as an opportunity to plug
the show.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
All Thanks honestly same.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. I also I think we
should come back and talk about this, but we forgot
to talk about we used to do video save I
used to do video and there's some fun.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Fermentation facts in there.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
I meant to mention it in our anniversary special, but
I totally forgot.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Oh right, yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Because you said that
you had gone back and watched some of the some
of the videos that we used to do.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I get kind of nostalgic for some of them, just
because we met so many cool people. We get to
do cool things, equal things, and we had a good team.
So the footage looks amazing. Oh anyway, absolutely definitely want
to come back and talk about that. But Mountain Dew,
I okay, I love this. I love that you're trying
(35:46):
these new things that appear in your your local store,
and that Mountain dew. As someone who's never had it,
I believe you're I believe deeply it is a drink
like halfway and you're like, I'm good.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, You're like, this is delightful and I'm done.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
It's nothing to do with it's bad or something. I
don't like it anymore. It's more of just like this
was good, this was enough.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
I feel I feel that way about most sodas, to
be honest. Yeah, like I'm about halfway through a glass
and I'm kind of like, well it's great. Yeah, yeah,
it's about enough for me. Yeah yeah, that makes sense,
that makes sense. But I'm glad you're having a nice
It sounds like a nice time.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Yeah, good good weird soda.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Absolutely, I'm I'm so glad and or sorry Ireland.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
That we're sending you that.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Mm hm.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Oh, society, We've really done a thing here, okay, uh,
Jesse wrote, I kept waiting to hear you mention be
More Chill in the in Du episode, and when it
wrapped up, I came to the realization that you two
might not have actually seen this epic nineties nostalgia, nerdy,
absolutely ludicrous musical. B More Chill revolves around a kid who,
(37:13):
in order to no longer be bullied, buys a Squip
from a dealer at the Payless Shoes, which is a
computer implant that guarantees to make the user a cool kid.
The squip is activated by drinking a green mountain dew. Mayhemonsues,
and the second act revolves around trying to figure out
how to deactivate the squip before it gains world domination spoilers.
(37:35):
The key all along is that Red Mountain Dew turns
it off. But Red Mountain Dew in this universe was
discontinued a decade prior. Luckily, the one non cool still
a nerd kid just happens to have a Code Red
lying around, and Michael saves the day. It is awful
and wonderful and absolutely guilty pleasure. And the concession stand
(37:57):
at the theater has their specialty cocktails beginning of the
show as regular mountain do, and during intermission is Code
Red Mountain Dew. Just had to share in case you
ever get the opportunity to see it. Some regional theaters
do still perform it.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Yes, I want to see this badly, right. No, I've
never heard of that, and it sounds amazing. Oh my gosh,
it is so good. I love that.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
It's like green Go Mountain Dew turns it on cold
red emergency red.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Yeah, Yeah, that's the key. It was all there. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Also just like nineties nerd nineties nerd stuff around, things
like this is just really funny and bad.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, and local theater is one of my very favorite things.
I am pretty deeply involved in local Atlanta theater. Uh
and so this this seems just aces all around.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Oh my Palless shoes shows up a dealer at Paliss Shoes.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
This is excellent. I must I must see it. Also,
squip is just a really good word.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Squip is really good. I also I enjoyed that there's
an alternate universe in here.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Yeah yeah, but this is where.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Right Yeah, Red Mountain Dew got discontinued.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Oh bye, there's a lot to love about this. There's
a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
There, truly is there?
Speaker 3 (39:44):
Truly is? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
So thanks for bringing that, putting that on our radar,
And thanks to both of these listeners for writing in.
If you would like to write in, you can our
email us hello at saberpod dot com.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
We're also social media.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at
saver pod and we do hope to hear from you.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Save is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and
Andrew Howard. They really are super thanks to you for listening,
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Dylan Fagan
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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