Muscadines: No Sour Grapes

These sweet grapes, native to the American South, are known for their large size, thick skins, and aromatic wines. Anney and Lauren explore the botany and history of muscadines and scuppernongs.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Favor production of iHeart Radio. I'm
Annie Reese and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum. And today we're talking
about muscadines, Yes, which I am very excited to learn
slash surprise to learn aren't really a thing outside of
the South or like a big thing now. They're pretty
much just in the American South. That's that's it. Wow.

(00:31):
I feel like it's so rare that this gets to
happen to me. Um, because my my grandparents used to
have muskadinevine. She's growing all over and yeah, you would
come outside and especially in the summer it was hot
and they'd fallen kind of rot, and it would just
smell so overwhelmingly sweet out there. Oh wow. Oh I've

(00:51):
never experienced that. Yeah, yeah, back in their backyard. Um,
and I've definitely had some North Georgia muscadine wine. It
is quite sweet, but it can be quite refreshing. You
don't know what you're going in, what you're getting into. Yeah,
typically very sweet. That's starting to change a little bit
these days. Um. Yeah, I had never personally seen muscadine

(01:14):
or a scaper dog grape until I moved to Atlanta
and saw one in a local supermarket and was like,
what the heck type of grape is that? And then
I bought them and then I was like, this is
different than most other American table grapes, and I was fascinated.
And then yeah, once I went on some like North
Georgia wine tours, um and yeah, yeah, I had many

(01:38):
a very heck and dessert e yes. Yeah, And I
think it's they really leaned into that for a while
because I grew up in a tourist town and it's
near a bunch of the wineries in Georgia, North Georgia. Um.

(02:00):
And at first that was like the thing that separated
them out, I guess was they had this sweet muscadine
wine yeah, that you would try, um, and it's like
any big tourist event would. I think it was also
very like leftover from the ninety nineties and the really
overly sweet alcohol culture of that time. UM and yeah,

(02:24):
I got got kind of lumped in there, but it's
it's starting to change now. But yeah, yeah, yeah. My
dad really loved sweet, sweet wines and alcohol, so we
would usually have some around. Um. I didn't know that
scuppernog was a muscadine. That was a mystery to me
for years what a scupp or knog was. I would

(02:46):
just see signs for it, like on the road, and
they're like, do I want to investigate? I don't know.
So even I am learning something there you go. But okay,
So for anyone who perhaps has not spent time in
the American South and is very confused about what we're

(03:07):
talking about, does this bring us to our question? I
suppose it does. Muscadines what are they? Well? Muscadines are
a group of largish grape varieties that have a thickish
tart skins encasing a sweet, bright, kind of floral muskie

(03:30):
fruit um. They're they're like little little Southern summer bombs. Yeah, yeah,
I like that. They kind of look like that too,
They do? They do? They look they're they're they're very
round grapes. They look kind of like a like a
B bomb from Super Mario. That's exactly what I was
thinking too. Grapes, of course, are the fruit that grow

(03:53):
on grape vines Um and muscadines botanical name Vitis rotundafolia
Muscadinia are often planted from cuttings. Because planting seeds from
a muscadine that you liked won't necessarily give you the
same type of fruit that you planted. Um. Muscadines grow
in small clusters like six to twenty four grapes tops um,

(04:15):
but they don't typically bunch the way that other grapes do.
They're they're more likely to be picked individually. And these
grapes can range from like normal grape size to more
like ping pong ball to golf ball territory um. And
I think more often you see that like nearing upon
ping pong ball size. Yes, I have been hitting the

(04:36):
head one before. Surprisingly painful, I mean, not as bad
as you might suspect, but uh yeah yeah, if they
get your right on the top of your soft kind
of kind of wear your soft spies to be Yeah, sure, sure,
but then I eat it and who wins? Then? Hey? Hey?

(04:58):
And what you can't say that about everything the hits
in the head um. These grapes are green when they're immature,
and when ripe can range in skin color from golden bronze,
and these are often referred to as Scuppernog's um to
pink to purple to black. The flesh and side, though
is always translucent, colorless, and the flesh can be crisp,

(05:21):
but is more often a sort of jelly like. And
Scuppernog is more properly varietal from the Scuppernog River region. Um.
But yeah, the name is kind of spread out to
generally mean golden color muscadines. M Also, I'm saying scuppernog,
but I think that that is a regional variation on it,

(05:45):
because there is an end towards the end of that word.
It's um. I think that it's meant to rhyme with song.
Scuppernong is the more technical pronunciation, but I've always heard
them called scuppern dog me too. It's okay. Maybe I
knew even less than I suspected, well, like to the

(06:09):
point that I was googling them and I and Google
was like, dude, you're spelling that wrong. It has an
N in there, and I was like, huh, And then
I noticed in the outline you also spelled it without
the N. Yes, And if Google corrected me, I did
not pay attention. I just went my merry way. Yeah,

(06:33):
this is a bear and staying bears kind of thing, right. Um.
At any rate, Muscadines are yes grown pretty exclusively in
UH in the American South, from from Delaware over to Missouri,
down through Florida and west along the Gulf Coast to
East Texas. UM all all hot, humid subtropical areas, and

(06:56):
they do grow wild um like in your grandparents back
hard but um. But there are over a hundred cultivars
that have been developed. I've seen numbers up to about
a hundred and fifty different cultivars UM. And they're considered
a greener type of grape to grow here environmentally speaking,
because they are native and that's more resistant to local
pests than introduced grapes. The vines are climbing and can

(07:20):
be very vigorous. Um. Yes, the wild ones will like
poke out through the tree tops and cultivated muscadines are
harvested late July through late September, depending on the type,
and are popular as a fresh fruit. They are a
seeded grape and the seeds are a bit large and
pretty solid, so watch out for that. UM. Basically, if

(07:40):
you've never eaten a fresh muscadine before, like get it
out of your head that you're about to eat a grape,
because it's got a different texture than pretty much any
other American table grape that I've ever had. It's its
own thing. Um, both are good. Both are good. Um.
And you can eat the skin and seeds from most muscadines,
but some people spit out one or both or just

(08:02):
kind of like suck the pulp out from the skins. Yeah. Yeah,
it depends on what you're doing. It does. And I
will say that's that was kind of a shocker to
me as a young kid in my grandparents packyard, like, oh,
bounty a wealth of grapes and then seeds. Uh, And yeah,
the outside can be kind of tough and like it's

(08:25):
very tanny. Yeah, it's got um, it's it's got a
lot of bitterness to it. Yeah. Yeah, So definitely temper
your expectations. Uh. It can be a tricky fruit to consume,
but very very sweet, very sweet. Yeah yeah. Uh. They
can also be processed into juice or jams or jellies

(08:46):
other preserves. A muscadine butter like a like a kind
of spiced kind of like apple butter, cranberry butter. Sort
of preparation is something I've seen a lot of recipes for.
You can use them to make wine or vinegar or
dried fruit products. The wine YES do tend to be
on the dessert side of sweetness. UM tend to be
very fruity. There's a lot of aromatics in um in

(09:07):
these wines and notes like a banana, citrus, peel, apple,
and cranberry. They're not typically aged UM think like a
really fragrant raasling um. However, this isn't usually due to
the natural sugar content of the grape. Um that those
thick skins can write add a lot of bitterness too,
to the must to the the the pressed grape stuff UM.

(09:30):
So sugar has often been added during the fermentation process. UM.
But a lot of producers in the area YES are
now offering dry wines made from muscadine varietals. And like
any like any wine it's made, it's made from grapes.
The final wine depends on so many things about what
you do to those grapes, and you process them so right,

(09:51):
the results can be quite varied. UM. Don't don't don't
write them all off if you don't like sweet wines. UM.
And if you're ever in the Southeast area, if you
happen to go buy a winery, I don't know, try something,
just get a sample. Yeah, yeah, you're usually pretty happy
to talk to you about it and share. They would
love to. Um. Muscadines can also be be baked into

(10:18):
various dishes um, usually pressed to remove their seeds, but
often including the skins. Um. Yeah. Pies and cobblers are popular. Um.
They can be used in savory recipes like salads or
roasted dishes. If you have never roasted a chicken or
like say, sliced sausages with grapes, go look up a

(10:38):
recipe and do it right now. It is so good.
Oh I've never done this. Oh it's so good. Okay,
I need to go grocery shopping soon. I will put
it on the list. Oh yeah, Musca diner. Otherwise, go
go look that up. It's delightful. Oh okay, Um, I

(10:58):
do love to. I have two friends, two separate friends,
who make they call it scupper knog jam or jelly
every year for Christmas, and it feels like one of
the most like now, I know it's a Southern kind
of thing, but you know, which is sort of a
old Yeah, I love it. It's always so exciting. Um, well,

(11:22):
what about the nutrition by themselves? Grapes are pretty good
for you lots of vitamins and other micronutrients, plus a
good punch of fiber. Um. Though like most fruit they
are fairly sugary. Um, they will help fill you up,
but to keep you going, pair them with a protein
and some fat. And as with many grapes in particular um,
the seeds and skins of muscadines contain all sorts of

(11:45):
compounds that are being investigated for health benefits because of
their potential anti cancer and pro cardiovascular properties. But yes,
safer slogan. As always, we're just making hand gestures. Now
you can't. I was doing like a parentheses motion. I

(12:06):
was doing like a like a I think it was
like a like a like an umpire like safe gesture.
Like alright, we went two different routes. The messages UM
perhaps not clear, but it's there. We do have some

(12:27):
numbers for you, we do, okay, So a mature vine
of muscadine grapes can produce upwards of twenty pounds of grapes,
and healthy vineyards can produce fifteen tons per anchor ah.
And this is versus about ten pounds per vine for
other types of grapes. And I have seen numbers up
of up to a hundred pounds of muskadines pervine per

(12:48):
year um. However, that being said, juice production is lower
per pound than many other grapes because muscadines tend to
be about skin and seeds by weight. Ah, my grape parents,
there were a lot back there, there were a lot
of muskadines. Yeah, And like we said big, they're not small.

(13:09):
Most of them are not small. Yes. Sales of muskadines
in Georgia and North Carolina alone were worth about five
point two million dollars per year as of twenty nineteen,
and there are muskadine festivals yearly in both North Carolina
and Tennessee at the end of September. Food and music

(13:29):
and before mentioned wine. Yes. Yes, the oldest known grape
vine in the US. Muscatine grapevine is a four hundred
plus a year old grape vine living in North Carolina.
It is called the mother vine. Um. Some believe it
is in fact the mother of all muscadine grapes in

(13:50):
this country. And I think i've I couldn't I couldn't
quite confirm which one. I feel like there's like maybe
more than one that they are these kind of like
legendary legends about um. But I think that this is
the one where the vine covers a full half an
acre of land and has a trunk over two ft thick. Wow,

(14:15):
that's cool. Yeah, the one I was looking at, which
I think is like the tourist attraction in North Carolina.
It looks so gnarly and cool. Oh, it definitely looks haunted.
I love it. Yes, the haunted Muscadine mother vine. It's
got a good drink to it. Hey, after four years,

(14:36):
I think we're all haunted, right, that's true, Muscadine or
not throwing those bob bombs at people. Well, we do
have some history for you, we do. But first we've
got a quick break forward from our sponsor and we're back.

(15:01):
Thank you sponsored, Yes, thank you. So. The muscadine grape
is believed to have originated in the southeastern United States,
where it has been cultured for more than four hundred years.
Records from the eighth century CE, though, indicate that explorers
from what is now Morocco may have observed muscadine grapes
along the Gulf Coast. Muscadines have a different number of

(15:25):
chromosomes than most other grape species forty versus thirty eight,
which makes researchers think that they probably split genetically from
other species of grape. Pretty far back in history, indigenous
peoples in North America used muscadine grapes, often preserving and
drying them. The muskadine is often called America's first actively

(15:45):
cultivated grape. One of the first things Sir Walter Rawleigh
noticed after he arrived at Roanoke Island in four was
the abundance of grapes. He wrote that they were quote
of such greatness yet wild as fran Spain nor Italy
has no greater. A few years earlier, in Giovanni di

(16:06):
Verazzo wrote that they would make a great wine, and
Captain John Hawkins observed Spanish settlements making large quantities of
muscatine wine in fifteen sixty five. Uh. This would have
been in the St. Augustine area in northeast Florida. Many
in the southeastern US grew their own musketines and made
their own muscatine wine, and it was pretty simple to do.

(16:28):
The greatest for crushed, then placed in a barrel or
a similar device to firm it for about a week
or so. I read some accounts that people were burying
these barrels. Um. Sometimes it took a less time. When
it was hot outside. I'm telling you the spell of
my grandparents yard. It was hot and it was like,
now that I know that smell, it's like wine. It was, yeah, yep, yep,

(16:49):
that's just what it smells like. Huh uh uh um.
Then the wine was strained or not ready to serve.
Both Thomas Jefferson and George Washington through muskadines, a bronze
variant of the muskadine, discovered our first recorded anyway in
North Carolina in seventeen sixty was the first officially recognized

(17:09):
muskadine cultivar. It was called Scuffernog or not, we don't know,
after the area it was found in, or the big
white grape. The area, in turn got its name from
an Algonquin word for for for some of the sweet
bay trees that grow locally, um a scopa or a scoopa.

(17:31):
Yeah yeah, And North Carolina was one of the country's
biggest producers of muscadines and muscatine wine in the eighteen hundreds.
Despite not being entirely accurate, the name of Scuffernog did
become interchangeable with muskadines, which yes to this day. North
Carolina was America's the biggest wine producer during this time,

(17:52):
and muskatine wine was in Thomas Jefferson's top three favorite wines. Yeah.
He wrote to a friend about it. Um it quote
would be distinguished on the best tables in Europe for
its fine aroma and crystalline transparents. Which is kind of
shocking because he seems like the type that would always

(18:13):
go for the europe Pean version. He did try to
grow European grapes, he did, He didn't really work for him,
not really. Um, maybe maybe this is his way of
going like like, no, I didn't I didn't want to
make wine like that anyway? Right that one better? Yeah? Yes? Um.

(18:39):
Wine maker Paul Garrett Scuppernog wine out of North Carolina
one ribbons at the nineteen hundred Paris Exhibition, and in
nineteen o four he entered his Scuppernog champagne, which won
the grand prize at the Louisiana Purchase Exhibition in St.
Louis despite international competition. He went on to sell muscatine
wine kits for making at home, even during Prohibition, right,

(19:01):
Before and after that, muscatine wine from Garrett's winery Virginia
Dare was the most popular wine in the country, and
Garrett himself was known as the Dean of American wine growers.
Yep still available to this day, and I believe that
uh the Champagne one is advertised as the oldest sparkling
wine in the United States. As more and more Americans

(19:24):
were drinking muscadine wines and sweet wines, commercial producers water
their product down, lessening the quality. Um Often they were
blended with sweeter grapes, sometimes that deluded the flavor to
After World War Two, Americans got a taste for European wines,
which they viewed as more cultured and less cheap than
muscadine wine. By North Carolina's wine industry was pretty much destroyed.

(19:47):
It was struggling, struggling really badly. In an attempt at
to bolster the wine industry, state legislators cut down on
fees and taxes on wine, not licensing and grapes um
North Carolina growers came together it to form wineries. The
University of Georgia launched a muskedine breeding program in nineteen
o nine. The oldest muskedine breeding program in this country.

(20:09):
Over the years, they've released over thirty cultivars, and their
priority goal is to create heartier varieties. In nineteen sixty,
Harper Lee's novel To Kill a Mockingbird mentioned muscadines um quote.
Our tacit treaty with miss Maudie was that we could
play on her lawn, eat her scupper dogs if we
didn't jump on the arbor and explore her vast back lot.

(20:32):
Terms so generous. We seldom spoke to her. So careful
were we to preserve the delicate balance of our relationship.
Mm hmmm, uh huh. After some studies suggesting that muskadines
had anti inflammatory properties in the nineteen nineties, muskadins experienced
a bit of a comeback. Yeah. Yeah, in the late nineties.
Maybe there were a few papers that came out about like, hey,

(20:58):
these grapes, but you're probably growing already the south. Um
can get in on this neutraceuticals trend um, And indeed
they can, so you know, yeah, neutraticals. Yeah, and especially
if you're making jams or jellies or something, and and
those seeds and those skins maybe are going to waste then, yeah,

(21:20):
it's a it's a great way to increase the value
of a crop. Well. North Carolina named the Skeffernog their
state fruit in two thousand one, so right around that time,
UH and researchers are currently working on developing varietals of
muscadines that grow seedless and with slightly thinner skins. Um.

(21:41):
Right now there are a few such varietals being grown.
They're just not commercially viable yet, and they do have
really fun names. One of them is called the oh
my with an exclamation point. That's fantastic. Yeah. I was
looking through some of the virietal names and they're they're excellent.

(22:04):
I highly recommend looking. Yeah, oh goodness, Yeah, it's it's
any kind of plant varietal mostly is going to give
you amazing specific names. Yes, yes, And some of them
you've got stuff like that, and then you've got the
ones that are so like victory or the independence. All right, muskadine.

(22:35):
It does feel like a victory when I find one
and it doesn't hit me in the head. Any fruit
that doesn't hit you in the head is aces Yes,
it is a victory in my book. Um, well, that's
about we have to say on Muscadines for now it

(22:57):
is we do have some listener ill for you. We do,
but first we have one more quick break for work
from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsors, Yes,
thank you, and we're back with listeners right in a

(23:22):
hoad um, Melissa wrote, I have to say all of
the discussion about geese, especially Canadian geese being jerks, has
been incredibly validating. I went to school in London, Ontario,
and Canadian geese there are truly next level. I learned

(23:44):
early on not to cross any lawn that they had
taken over. I've since moved to Montreal, but worked for
the Cree Nation in northern Quebec. Canadian geese are such
an integral part of their culture that there's an official
goose break for two weeks every May. Official buildings and
schools closed so that every one can go to their
camps and hunt geese. Sustainable and respectful hunting practices are

(24:04):
integral to this. Even though I'm mostly vegetarian, I've never
turned down offers of goose meat. Officially this is to
be respectful and grateful, but it might actually just be spite.
Delicious delicious spite. One thing that's interesting to point out.
I've never seen Canadian geese and cree towns. I have
had cree people laugh at me when I tell them

(24:26):
that geese are jerks and find it funny how bold
the geese are In Montreal. One creek colleague sent a
photo of a goose standing right next to a lit
barbecue in a park, wandering if it had some kind
of death wish. They've learned who to fear and who
they can just push around or off a bike path
when they refuse to move. Look what you started, Lauren.

(24:47):
We've opened a whole can of geese and Canadian geese. Look,
I'm it's not it's geese are not my fault. I'm
only reporting the accurate truth about these hair herbal terrible animals.
I think this has been a plot of yours all
turned the listener males segment into a bird's complaining about

(25:11):
birds and specifically geese segment. Um, And I'm enjoying it,
so I'm not mad about it. You know, it was
it was. I was. I used to be a lot
more anti bird, to be honest, Um, it was. It was.
Since super producer Andrew joined the show Who Loves Birds
um uh that I started gaining more of an appreciation

(25:34):
for them. Um. They they are beautiful creatures that want
to eat your eyeballs. Yeah, I respect, you know, respect.
I don't want to mess with them, that's for sure.
No dinosaurs with wings. Heck, yes, I also like eating

(25:58):
something out of spite I have done as well. Then
I'm awful for that too. Oh um. I mean goose
is separate from my personal emotions about geese. Goose is delicious,
so that, yeah, we'll have to do an episode on them.
I'll come around and be fond of them because of
the weird science. I'm sure we're not trying to change you, Lauren,

(26:23):
aren't you? Aren't you? This is my goal. It's to
help you deal with your geese trauma, and then I'm
going to We're gonna have a healing journey. Oh, healing
goose journey. Okay, okay, all right. Alicia wrote when listening

(26:47):
to the Bubble Teas episode, I got so excited at
the mention of be Arthur. Unfortunately I have not seen
the special in question, so I have to get on that.
My boyfriend and I have been watching everything in chronological
order due to the slew of releases of shows coming
out as talking about Star Wars Universe, bad Batch is
so good. However, be Arthur, I am a huge fan

(27:09):
of the Golden Girls. My roommates and I in college
all actually fit the personalities of each lady perfectly, and
mine was Dorothy B. Arthur. So I one agree that
be Arthur, y'all needs to be a shirt. Also, y'all
suggested tarot as a bubble tea flavor, so I went
to the local shop and tried it. Oh my, heck delicious.

(27:30):
In listening to regional food commentary about garbage plates, I
figured I would chime in with some clarification on the
components as I went to college and live in Rochester.
The garbage plate was first created at a restaurant named
Nick Tajose. At the present time this is not the
best place to get them. The components are as follows.
A bass layer of French fries mac salad topped with

(27:53):
either hot dogs or cheeseburgers. This is then all topped
with Rochester hot sauce, which is in essence a spicy
meat sauce, onions and mustard. And yes, it is for
sure a food popular for the nights that alcoholic beverages
are consumed. My boyfriend and I also do cocktails of
the Week from an American bar book we have and

(28:15):
June is vodka. The Moscow Mule is for sure on
our list as they're so delicious. However, it is rather
difficult to find good ginger beers. I find many I
have encountered are way too sweet. Yes, the ginger beers
key it is, oh so is m hm hm. But

(28:36):
hopefully you'll find a good one. Uh yeah. And if you,
if you need to, if you can find some ginger
roots and just like muddle that maybe um in in
the shaker in the bottom of the glass, that that
might that might do you mm hmmmm um. Yes, and
I'm glad you like the tarot. It's so good always

(28:56):
to be Arthur always. Like I said, I have the
Holiday Special and for defit flash drive so that you
have to pry it from my cold dead hands. Um
because it is hard to find. I don't want you
to see it, but it can't be done, is what
I'm saying. Duly noted and okay, yes, yes um. Thanks

(29:23):
to both of those listeners for writing um. If you
would like to write to as you can our emails
hello at savorpod dot com well here. Also on social media,
you can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at
savor pod and we do hope to hear from you.
Savor is a production of my Heart Radio. For more
podcasts my Heart Radio, you can visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

(29:44):
favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers Villain
Pagan and bird Lover Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening,
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way