January 1, 2021 • 43 mins
This bread is definitely made from cornmeal, but what else goes in (or definitely doesn’t go in) is a matter of some opinion. Anney and Lauren dig into the history and culture of cornbread.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello, and welcome to Savor Prodiction of I Heart Radio.
I'm Annie rec and I'm Lauren Vocal Bomb. And today
we're talking about corn bread. Yes, and this is a
food where my southern card gets questioned lot oh yes,
oh yes, because a lot of people have really strong
opinions about it and what it is, yes and what
(00:30):
it is not. There are such strong opinions. I didn't
realize this until like a few years ago. Yeah, and
in the terminology around it here because I'm a lot
of my friends are very Southern, and they they'll just
be like, wait, you cook it and not a cast
off skillet? That's not corn bread? What? Um? Yeah? And
(00:56):
we're talking about it because as this comes out it
is New Year's gig. Cannot believe. I know, right, when
did that happen? When did it's still March? Right? What
what's going on by their March are like September, it's
it's it's you know, depending on the day or or
it's like and I can't tell, Oh my gosh, what
(01:19):
if we like left our apartments then it was like
the future, the future we were promised would happen in
nineteen with like with like floating skateboards and stuff. Yeah. Yeah,
that's that's how you know you're in the future. Nothing else, well,
we'll see I am. Yeah. Well, whatever year it is,
(01:39):
Happy New Year. Supposedly it's but who knows. Um. And
here in the South, cornbread is a part of the
traditional good like southern meal, which we've talked about before
in past episodes. Um, and then cornbread represents coins and
gold and the other things are some type of pork
product um, collared or turn up greens or greens and
(02:02):
black eyed peas, which I make every year. But I
don't make the corn bread actually, and I really don't
have corn bread very often. The only time I have
it generally is in the cornbread stuffing for Thanksgiving and
Christmas that I make, which I actually just had for
lunch left. Oh heck, I okay. Corn Bread stuffing isn't
(02:23):
a thing that I knew existed until I moved to Atlanta.
I still don't think I've ever had it. Um outrage.
In in my family, stuffing was always made with like
white wheat flour bread. Um. And that's yeah. I'm just like, really,
(02:44):
you can put a corn bread is stuffing. It's funny
because I feel the opposite way. But now that you
mentioned it, that makes sense to make it that way.
Oh sure, yeah, yeah, both both big perfect sense. Um.
Cornbread is thing that I started. I had growing up,
a sweet yellow corn bread and um, it's something that
(03:08):
I still get pretty nostalgic for. And uh, my dad
made a lot of Jiffy. My dad was a big,
big proponent of Jiffy uh, Jiffy boxes to um to
serve specifically with chili. That was that was his like special,
I'm making chili and a box of Jiffy corn bread
kind of thing. Um and uh and then on like
(03:30):
like with the leftovers we would have chili mac. So yeah,
yeah that sounds good. Oh gosh it is. And that's
still that's still kind of what I want to do
when I have chili. But um, so, corn bread is
something that I don't think I had made from scratch.
Maybe i'd made it like one other time before, but
I've made it at least twice during quarantine, um, because
(03:54):
I was just like I need comfort, Rode, Well, you've
got me beat there. I've never made it from scratches.
You can judge me. I don't care. I already get
it from my southern friends. It's pretty easy. It's pretty
easy to make um. But but yeah, the looking up
(04:16):
recipes was kind of I think, the first time that
I realized how deep the rabbit hole of opinions goes. Yeah,
oh yeah, it's a it's a deep one. It's I
didn't I didn't know. I didn't know rabbits could dig
that deep. It's it's a lot. Well, you know, one time,
(04:43):
well only one time. Yes, my rabbit Amber, she burrowed
out into the night and we the hole went so deep.
We don't know what happened to her, but I made
it somewhere. Amber is out there to this day, living
the wildlife. Wow, you've had really bad luck with pets.
(05:05):
I absolutely do. I absolutely do. But moving on from that,
you know, my dad, he really likes like the classic
Southern foods. That was his thing. And he would he
would get like, um, collared greens in a cup and
crumple up cornbread in there, and he loved that. And
(05:27):
then he would put corn bread in buttermilk. Oh yeah,
yeah yeah. And I was thinking about this and didn't
we have like a lacy corn bread and we were
in Alabama? Yeah, yeah, that one. Oh gosh, now I'm
and I didn't look it up, and now I'm not
going to be able to pull a name out of
my head. But there was this one lovely restaurant that
we went to, possibly in South Georgia rather than Alabama.
(05:52):
But yeah, like a like a like a real good
like like southern buffet, like like meet and three kind
of kind of place. Um and and yeah, one of
the breads that they had was, um, what's called a
hot water corn bread or yeah, like lacy corn bread
and um, it's it's like real, real thin, like almost
like a like a like a cracker size and and
(06:13):
chewy and crispy and fatty and so good. Oh man, Yeah,
I think I think many in our group went up
for multiple corner Yeah, because and I don't think any
of us, like I spelt like like Andrew is from
you know, the Northeast, and he was like, what is
(06:33):
this magic? And we were like we don't know either,
and so yeah, like it's just amazement all around. Yes, yes,
it was very delicious, But okay, let's get to our question. Yes, yes,
corn bread, what is it? Well, corn bread is a
type of bread made from corn meal. Yeah, yeah, uh,
(07:01):
what else goes? Into. It depends on what textures and
flavors you're you're working with in your corn meal and
what you're going for in your finished product. And uh,
and yet today we're we're talking mostly about types corn
bread that are baked using like a thick batter in
a in a dish or a pan, so that they
(07:21):
bake up slightly raised, um and anywhere from crumbly, too
tender and savory to sweet. Though there are a lot
of other things that you can do with corn meal batters.
You can make flatbreads of various kinds, including that Lacey
cornbread we had, or m Johnny cakes or how cakes
you can deep fried into hush puppies. You can cook
it up into like a like a pudding, like a
(07:42):
spoon bread, use it as the topping of a cast roll,
which I found a lot of recipes for and now
I really want to do if that sounds good. Um.
But corn meal so perhaps obviously UM, if you're making
a bread out of any kind of grain, the qualities
of that grain matter. You know, from the amounts and
(08:04):
types of protein and carbohydrate that grow in the grain,
um to to whether it's harvested fully ripened, and thus
more sugary to whether it's processed whole or with some
bits removed, to how finally and evenly it's ground. Corn
Meal made from white corn um tends to be a
bit naturally sweeter, with a deeper corn flavor, and a
(08:26):
little bit more coarsely and unevenly ground um, often still
by stone mill. Um. Maybe it's a little bit fresher
and like stickier, kind of like self fluffing. Yeah. Um.
And it tends to be more expensive because it is
an artisan product. Um. But you can make a good
corn bread from it, um without adding too much flour
or any sugar at all. Oh, the sugar debate, the
(08:48):
sugar debate. We're getting into it. We're gonna get into it. Um. Uh.
Yellow corn meal, on the other hand, tends to be
a bit more bland, a bit more finally and evenly ground.
Usually buy machine, a little bit drier and more shelf stable. Um.
It's cheaper because it's easier to industrialize, but you'll probably
want to add more flour and sugar to it to
(09:11):
get a tasty corn bread out of it. Of course,
the price issue depends heavily on where you are and
what you know can grow in your backyard. Um, which
is another thing that we will get into. But at
any rate, yes, um so so that's one of those
(09:31):
two corn meals is going to be the basis of
your bread. Um and other ingredients. And yes, some of
these are controversial. I can hear some of you gearing up. Yeah,
the emails already composed, it's already ready to go, no
matter what you said. I yet again, I am only
(09:54):
reporting the facts here, okay, Yes, um so um. You
can indeed add wheat flour to a corn bread up
to equal parts with the corn meal, and that will
make it fluffier. You can technically make corn breads with
(10:15):
with just like corn meal and water. But if you
add fat, that will add some tenderness and some flavor. Um.
It's generally added to the batter in liquid form though,
so it's not going to provide any lift the way
that like creaming butter into a recipe would add lift. Butter, lard, bacon, fat,
or a combination are common, although you can use olive
(10:36):
oil or other plant oils. Eggs in there will provide
lift and also tenderness. Um. You'd add fewer for more
crumbly bread, and more for a cakier bread. Um. Depending
on how much lift you want, you can add varying
amounts of baking powder and baking soda. Adding butter milk
will provide a depth of flavor to the finished bread. Um,
and and the acid in that buttermilk will activate the
(10:59):
bake ping soda to help lift the bread. If you're
using baking soda also gets a little bit more fat
in there, a little bit more tenderness. Some folks add
sour cream to for similar purposes. Um. Adding a bit
of sugar can make up for the lack of flavor
in some yellow corn meals, or you can add like
a bunch more than that for sweeter bread. More sugar
(11:21):
also does create a little bit more tenderness. You can
put addens in there. Um. This is not a thing
that my family does, and I still don't really understand it.
But um, but but it sounds delicious. Like you can
added a whole kernels of corn. You can add in cream, corn, um,
all kinds of cheeses, chopped chilies, whatever you want, Bacon,
the calpino alpino cheese corn bread is pretty popular around
(11:45):
in barbecue places around these certainly, Yeah, yeah, I'm not
going to say no to it. I love it. Yeah. Sure,
I wish I'd taken a picture of what I had
for lunch. She would have gotten a kick out of it.
But it was like five different sauces. I was. It
was just a plate and I was dipping things into
the hot So this is not my surprised face at all.
(12:11):
It was delicious. Uh. Did you get a bunch of
hot sauces for like the holidays? I did. I got
at least six. Oh my gosh, that is glorious from
like different humans. Different humans all got you hot. That's great,
that's really cool. They know they do, they do, Oh jeez. Um.
(12:33):
And then uh, then I would say the final ingredient,
um is what you already brought up annie. Um. That
that that that pan that you use, um and uh.
And that pan is traditionally in the South a cast
iron skillet. Um. And I mean you can make a
cornbread without one. Um, but cast iron skillet is a
(12:54):
great vehicle because you can you can preheat it in
the oven um, and or else your fat in it
on the stovetop, and so then it's a it's it's
nice and hot when you pour your batter in UM
and that helps get a get a good crust started. Yeah,
this is where I get a lot of judgment because
I never use a cast iron skillet to do this.
(13:16):
Apparently that's like not a pone of corn bread, and
that's what I should be making. Well, I raised my
hands and defeats, and that's between you and your cornbread.
Got any res I can't. Oh no, I think it
says something about me that every time, like the issue
(13:36):
of some type of god comes up on me, being
like oh no, oh whick, judgment will be fierce and
swift and and or again we just watched too much supernatural.
Who knows? Who knows? It could be that I think
D and D I roe that pun look at that?
(13:56):
OHT know? Okay, corn bread, Um, the result, the result
of all of this, you know, really depends on what
you did. Um. You can make a corn bread that's
a couple of inches tall and fluffy and tender and
sweet like a muffin, almost more like a cake than
a bread. You can make a corn bread that's less
(14:18):
than a niche, thick and crumbly and a little bit
coarse and like salty and savory. Um, almost more like
a flatbread than a than a breadbread. Um, both probably
have a nice chewy crust, I will say, and you
can make something anywhere in between. All are valid. You
are valid. Thank you, Lauren, You're welcome. That's what I
(14:40):
needed to hear. And yeah, Lauren and I were talking
before we get started and before I really derailed everything
with my traumatic story about my rabbit as a kid. Um,
there's so many like ways we could have gone, so
many ways. Corn bread is used and has been used
as an ingredient in different dishes. Some things I did
(15:01):
want to mention is crumble in which I've never heard of, uh,
and corn bread dressing. Yes, so we're going to touch
on a little bit later. But these could be a
whole other episodes. Oh oh yes, um uh and probably
will be at some point in the future. There were Yeah,
there were so many different directions that I wanted to
go down. Um uh. Yeah. I was just saying to
(15:22):
Annie before we started, like I could have just kept
reading about this like kind of forever. Um, I really
want to do horrifying, lee complicated episode about the industrialization
of corn now. Yes, um, but yeah, I've been wanting
to do that for a while. And that's how you
know we're food podcast nerds. Well what are you really
(15:45):
excited about right now? The industrialization of corn? Why aren't
you weird? Well, what about the nutrition? Again, it depends
on how you make it. Um. And you know, bread
(16:05):
in general is not like a health food. Um. But
and like I don't know, like like running running the numbers.
Corn bread tends to have a little bit more fat
than most wheatbreads probably do. But those also depend on
how you make them. Um said, it's food, Eat it,
(16:26):
eat it. It's a good it's a good thing. It
helps fill you up, um, to help keep you going.
Eat a vegetable and probably some protein and some protein
in the words of the genius of our time, weird
Al Yankovic. Just eat it. Just eat it if you
want to, if you want to add there, Yeah you
(16:54):
um numbers Wise, you don't really have much. I will say.
There have been a lot of books written about corn bread. Yeah,
especially recently. Um, I and I and I love this.
I love um that this, uh, this entire cultural phenomenon
is is really being dissected and given the weight that
that that it deserves. Yeah, and it it moves a
(17:14):
lot of people, Like several things. I read were really poetic,
and I was like, oh, corn bread, Yeah, and it's
long inspired strong opinions and thoughtful pros. Mark Twain wrote
in his autobiography the North thinks it knows how to
make cornbread, but this is gross superstition. Rebecca Powers wrote
(17:38):
an abuse for The Washington Post in the America's cornmeal
maybe the most indigenous of ingredients, spiralering across regions and
among ethnicities and races, like a genetic double helix. I know,
I love that. Oh that is beautiful. Um, the the
most the most poetic one that I read was, um
(17:59):
that you know you should you should serve corn bread
either piping hot or completely cool, because quote, tepid corn
bread is the penance of poor planning. Yeah. That was
from the Bitter Southerner, from an article by Sherry Castle.
(18:19):
That's great, Yeah for planning. Heaven forbid. Well, we have
so much history for you, Oh we do. But first
we've got a quick break for a word from our sponsor,
(18:43):
and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. So
cornbread's history in North America goes back thousands of years
to indigenous people's mixing ground up maze with salt, and water,
sometimes with fat and frequently flattened. They would flatten this
exture into cakes that were very filling, if not a
bit bland. Um. One of America's most valuable native crops,
(19:07):
corn was very prized and used to make a whole
host of things, from bread to alcoholic beverages and all
kinds of stuff in between. Yeah yeah, And it was
also taken note of by the European explorers and colonizers
who started coming over around the uh the Furtune and
fifteen hundreds and some of whom um, the Portuguese specifically
(19:31):
brought corn from the America's over to Africa, and so
corn meal was thus incorporated into cuisines in various cultures
around the continent there um, and it is the base
of just, for example, um the porridge side digit gali,
So stuff like that, yeah h uh. When European colonists
arrived to the America's they adapted the cornbread recipe that
(19:52):
was already there to fit their culinary preferences in a
way to make it feel more like home. And these
early seventeenth century recipes were simple, um, tailored to what
was available, and relying largely on butter and eggs for
flavor to make a longer lasting cornbread, cook started adding
yeasts and wheat in the eighteen hundreds if they could
(20:13):
afford them. Both were pretty expensive. The chemical levener potash
was sometimes used instead to give cornbread lift. Um. And
this is where the addition of buttermilk would have come in,
not just for its flavor, but also because that the
acid and buttermilk reacts with potash as it does in
more modern baking soda to provide lift and so yeah
(20:34):
either way. Um. This was the start of liftier corn
breads um, including flat bread like Johnny Cakes and more
muffin like corn pones m m uh. This corn pone
was often cooked in either a Dutch oven or greased
iron skillet, with the lid placed right over hot coals
to make sure the red heated evenly. The lid was
(20:56):
also covered with embers. Yes. And of note, at the time,
corn referred to all types of grains um, and maize
referred specifically to corn. Yeah. If you're ever looking into
the history of this for yourself, then that's a really
confusing thing until you get it firmly into your head.
Um yeah yes um. Also of note, um, the corn
(21:19):
meal that was being used at the time was probably
mainly white corn meal. Um, a little bit sweeter, more
naturally fluffy. This will come back later on, yes. Um.
After comparing several types of corn bread in Virginia, a
correspondent from The Times wrote in it will be observed
that none of them is sugar used. There are corn
(21:41):
meal pudding served with sweet sauces, but no Southern cook
would risk the spoiling of her corn breads by sweetening them. Oh,
the beginning of the sugar debate. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay,
so so part of the reason that sugar would not
have been used in corn bread itself was because sugar
was dang expensive at the time. Um. You know, it
(22:03):
might have been a table side seasoning, like if you
were fortunate enough to be able to afford it, But
but only the wealthy would have been able to afford
to bake sweet things with any regularity. Um, and cornbread
was a sustenance food, you know, like you would save
that sugar if you had it for a special occasion
baked good um, which, to be fair, could include um,
fancy celebration corn breads, fancy celebration cornbread. It was apparently
(22:29):
a thing no well, I can understand. From the beginning,
columnists arriving to the South eight primarily cornbread over other
bread products, and this was the norm until the twentieth century,
which is also when wheat flour and sugar started showing
up more commonlying recipes for those that yes could afford
it um. This was also in part because corn grew
(22:50):
well in the South while wheat and rye flourished in
the North. Only rich people in the South ate something
other than cornbread on a regular basis. When it came
to bread products. For most Southerners, wheat biscuits were for
special occasions, special location. Wheat. Yeah, A lot of these
recipes weren't recorded, but instead passed from mothers to daughters
(23:10):
a prized family secret. In in eighteen fifty three New
York Times article detailing Texas, the author wrote, in the
interior of the country, cornbread forms the staple article of
the diet, anything composed of wheat flour being about as
scarce as ice cream in Sahara or Sahara, however you prefer.
(23:33):
Because corn grew easily and in less than ideal conditions,
particularly in the South, it was a stable for the
poor and enslaved people. In his book The Cooking, Jean
Michael Twitter wrote that cornbread mashed up with pot liquer
is quote the oldest baby food known to black people
in America, going back to the days of slavery. Yeah. Um,
some enslaved peoples would have been familiar with corn and
(23:56):
corn meal from their culinary traditions in Africa, and probably
for the white upper class and possibly for the for
the white lower classes as well. Southern cornbread traditions grew
out of what enslaved people were doing in their kitchens
and then passing along through their communities as they cooked
(24:17):
in wealthy white households. Um, and then lower class white
people saw what those households were doing, right Yeah yeah.
And speaking of those wealthy households, I guess according to Vice,
a Victorian era Southern lady or ladies changed the name
of stuffing to dressing when it comes to that product
(24:41):
due to the English slang meaning of stuffed. Um. Yeah,
a future episode and while it was a doozy, that
was another one where I was reading about it, like
what stuff it can't go down this rabbit all today? Yeah, yeah,
I think we call it dressing in my house exclusively. Yeah, yeah,
(25:05):
I pretty exclusively call it stuffing, even though I would
never dare put a bread product into a bird and
then cook the bird, right, I'm not doing that part
of it. But yeah, we do. I think we do
call it stuffing more. I think we switch. But that's
very very funny if that's true, that's hilarious. Yeah. During
(25:28):
the nineteenth century, most farmers got corn meal for their
families by toll milling, so they'd go to their local
mills with their own corn to get a ground and
they pay the miller with some of the resulting corn meal.
Around the beginning of the twentieth century, traditional stone mills
were slowly replaced by mills that used these large steel
cylinders to roll things out, and these were more efficient
(25:51):
when it came to removing the corn kernel and germ,
which was really good for shell stability but not so
great for a flavor. The texture of the meal was
also more homogenized, which for cornbread was not necessarily a
good thing. That's not really what you were going for
a lot of the time, um necessitating wheat flour to
get that same rise. The sugar was also added as
(26:15):
a result of this, or at least it started to
be added more commonly so make up for lost flavor. Um.
A change in the type of corn that was being
milled had something to do with this too, And um
some people used molasses in sugars place. Yeah yeah, molasses
would have been a more common sweetener in general and
like less than wealthy households. Um. But yeah yeah that
(26:38):
that that switching corn um Uh so okay, these these
hybrid yellow types of corn that were higher yielding, um
like cheaper to grow, began replacing white corn for industrially
made corn meal after the Civil War and um, by
like the nineteen sixties, some of the old varieties were
(26:58):
nearly extinct. Yeah. Yeah. And this debate around sugar, which
I uh, I didn't know it was such a huge deal.
I did know that they are very strong opinions about
a lot of things with cornbread, But the sugar thing
was when I wasn't very familiar with. But it isn't
like the top two like Google search page results. It's
(27:19):
like sugar sugar at sugar don't have sugar? What is this? Yeah?
So that the debate around that and white versus yellow
corn meal does often ignore questions of class and race.
So Michael Twitter wrote about this too quote It's a
lot deeper than it appears. It's actually a gauge of
who gets to call what southern southern? So often what
(27:42):
is southern? How is southern? Why is southern? Has been
determined by Southern white people. Is a part of the
larger discussion of whether or not you see Southern culture
from the perspective of the big house or the slave quarters.
We're still having this argument one hundred years later, but
we're using different vehicles to have it, including cornbread. Yeah.
(28:02):
Uh yeah, well we'll we'll keep we'll keep getting into that.
And it does, it does flow through the rest of
this timeline. Um so um so so sweetened yellow corn
bread UM is sometimes considered a Northern thing um and
it might have caught on in the North partially because
yellow corn meal was what was available there, um, but
(28:25):
partially because of the Great Migration of the early nineteen hundreds,
in which many black Americans from the South moved northward
looking for new opportunities, um, bringing their culinary traditions with them.
The Times had more to say about corn red in seven,
with an article claiming corn red and Kentucky is made
with white coarsely ground corn meal. Never never are sugar
(28:47):
and wheat flour used in cornbread. Water ground corn meal
and water ground whole wheat flour have still a market
in Kentucky and are still used with delight. And oh
and this is where it gets been more complicated because okay,
white corn meal is a local product in Kentucky. Um,
you know, wheat flour and sugar and yellow corn meal
(29:09):
for that matter would have been expensive. Um, but working
class people could have grown their own white corn So
although kind of traditionally white unsweetened corn bread might have
been an upper class thing, there are these whole pockets
of the South for whom it's the opposite. Uh. And
(29:32):
it's really confounding. And I and I adore this um Uh.
I think I think it's just a just a really
interesting and good example of, um, of how race and
class intersect and how the South is not a monolith,
you know, like the South is this entire broad band
of different cultures um that all have their own traditions
(29:55):
and they're all inter related in really confusing ways. Um.
But yeah, Um, Meanwhile, Jiffy debuted their corn bread or
corn muffin mix in nineteen fifty. It includes yellow corn
meal and sugar, and today flash forward to the present,
(30:15):
Jiffy corn muffin mix is responsible for of the corn
muffin mis sold in the United States, um, making it
the second most sold dry grocery product behind chicken ramen.
What like It's like it's a head of Kraft Macaroni
and cheese. What yeah. Um, the next most popular corn
(30:39):
muffin mix after that, by Martha White, has only one
percent of the US market. Wow, Jeffy's got a real
hold they do. It's fascinating. Is that shocks me? Yeah? Yeah,
well it's you know, um, it's it's used again these
(31:02):
pockets of Southern culture and what is southern and kind
of like going into the difference between southern culture and
soul food, or our southern food and soult food, because
frequently the soul food version of corn bread is going
to be the sweeter one, even though it's Southern. Yeah. Wow, wow,
(31:22):
I have I have a lot to think about now,
I'm pretty sure. I mean that's all I've ever made,
um from a corn bread uh huh yeah, Oh my god. Yeah.
Now I really want to track down like silly expensive
white corn meal and try making corn bread out of that.
I've only ever used yellow anyway. Uh. In a Dorothy
(31:44):
Robinson wrote for the Richmond Times, cooks who paid attention
knew there was a difference, a very different product from
the yellow corn meal of the North. It's this white
water ground meal of the South. The two are not
interchangeable in recipes. Most standard cookbooks, with the exception of
a comparative few devoted to Southern cooking, have concerned themselves
with yellow corn meal recipes as if they did not
(32:04):
know any other kind exclamation point. They do not even
distinguish between the two. They simply say, naively, a cup
of corn meal when listing ingredients in a recipe. Oh
and in nineteen fifty someone wrote into The Times picka
unit in New Orleans, Um, who's got coarse grits? The
(32:26):
only grits we can get is very fine and no
better than mush. In short, I'm advertising for some grocer
or other individuals selling coarse grits. To drop me a line.
Ah wow, this is wonderful. I know, I know, I
love it. Skipping way ahead, in Sarah van Tera wrote
(32:50):
a piece called Here's why Sean Brock is willing to
break international laws for corn bread. I remember that when
that article came out and I put cornbread on our
list because I was like what uh yeah, and it's
all about brock journey to resurrect a variety of corn
known as Jimmy Red because, as you were saying, a
lot of those corn varieties that we used to use
(33:10):
are either when extinct or very little people left growing them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
With with mass mass farming practices, big egg and all
that um hoof hoof. Indeed, uh, so many this has
open so many other pass for us to follow at
(33:32):
a later date. Yes, yes, oh, and I and I
look forward to them deeply. Um, because yeah, that there
are so many corn meal related dishes that um that
are that that that I'm unfamiliar with, um that I
would like to become familiar with, you know, both research
wise and like with my stomach. Um. That's one of
(33:55):
the nicest ways of saying you're going to eat something
I've ever heard. I would like to become familiar with that. Yeah. Yeah,
I just I just wanna, I just want to eat
(34:15):
you corn meal lots of different ways. Well, here's hoping
uh opens that for you. Yes, fingers cratched that I'll
get get my get myself together and do more cooking
or be able to go someplace any place and have
(34:38):
someone cook something for me. Yes. Uh. And you can
send those thoughts too. As in speaking of we do
have some lister mail, Yes we do. At first, We've
got one more quick break for a word from our
sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you.
(35:03):
And we're back with cast aron skillet method that I
never do, but you're bringing it out the oven't our
connection is really interesting today listeners? So that was yeah, Yeah,
there's Yeah, there's a couple of places where I'm just
(35:26):
taking it on faith that that Annie hasn't gone wildly
off outline. That's very risky of you. That is a
roll of the dice, in fact, but I think it
worked out. Producer Andrew can take care of it and
post he is a magician. So you have a letter
(35:48):
from Andrew, Theresa's guy who we've mentioned before. Um he wrote, Hopefully,
once we defeat this pandemic and are all allowed to
have socialized again, I would love nothing more than to
meet you both and share a Reese's and talk about
everything from Reese's to Marvel, and everything else under our
shared nerdy passions. On that note, I am curious what
(36:10):
are each of your favorite Reese's products. To most of
my follower's surprise, the regular Reese's cup is not my
favorite Reess product. In fact, it's not even in my
top five I know, in no particular order. It's Reese's
Fast Break. Any white chocolate, white cream reces, Reese's covered
pret Souls, Reese's ice cream, egged shaped Reese is okay.
(36:37):
If the Hershey Company ever brings back the inside out
races where the peanut butter is on the outside and
chocolate is on the inside, I'm sure that will infiltrate
my top five. Also, I'm unsure if you both were aware,
but I have recently discovered peanut butter whiskey. There are
a few different brands like Screwball, P B and W,
and Sheep Dog who have sent me bottles to try.
(36:58):
Nothing beats having your favorite can de brand send you
free candy and your favorite alcohol also being sent for free.
I'm not an average drinker, but peanut butter whisky has
definitely improved my hot chocolates and eggnogs this winter. They're
also quite delicious on their own. If you're into sweet
tasting whiskeys, I've been meaning to try those for a while.
(37:21):
I feel like I have had one and I liked it,
but it was like just a tiny little tasting bigger
I need a bigger sampling to make clear, clearly clearly
it's not on Yeah, yeah, I generally do not like
sweet tasting whiskeys, but I'm willing to try anything um
(37:44):
or pretty much. So yeah, I'm I'm curious. I'm curious
how that flavor profile goes together. It seems like it
would go well. I've definitely had a peanut butter beer
that I really liked and it surprised me. But I
mean it was heavy, and I think you really have
to go in knowing what you're getting. Sure you took
us a price tip of that, which I've done, it's
not going to be a happy day. But if you're like, oh,
(38:05):
this is going to be like a heavy, kind of
sweeter thing, yeah, yeah, that's again, I would try it.
But um, but sweet flavors and beers are not what
I'm there for. Um. I generally like my alcohol to
be fairly fairly on the dry end. But but oh gosh,
(38:26):
I I get like, like, just like Reese's Pieces might
be my favorite iteration products. Yeah, yeah, I love Reese's
Pieces And I went through a really big Reese's Pieces phase.
Like that was one of my top candies. I would
sneak into movie theater that in the twist and fill um.
(38:47):
But I really like I like fast Right too because
it's kind of kind of a combination between Kit Cats,
which is my other favorite, and Reese's. And then I
like a I like a good like big cup, not
not the big big cup, but like the medium the
medium big cup, not the man but that that. Yeah.
(39:07):
Oh for Christmas, my older brother he loves ess and
my mom, so we we're trying to guess what this
gift was because it was this huge package but it
was thin. It was like maybe the size of my
hand across. But and he opened it up and it
was like eighteen humongous. Wow that is it was awesome.
(39:35):
That's delightful. It was awesome. My little brother got one
for Kitcats as well, so that was really fun. Yeah. Yeah,
I got basically like nothing but snacks this Christmas. Like
that was everyone just like it's it's like they know me,
like they were just like all Laura needs more snacks
like that delightful. Yes, oh yes, um Danielle wrote, Hey, ladies,
(40:02):
just got around to listening to your condensed Campbell Soup episode.
I'm a New Jersey native, so Campbell Soup is appointed
pride for me. I was listening during my lunch and
I nearly jumped out of my seat when I heard
you mentioned tomato soup and a spiced cake. My grandmother,
who passed in July. Oh, I'm sorry. Um made tomato
soup cake all the time. It's legendary in my family.
(40:22):
If you mentioned it in the presence of any of
her sixteen grandkids, we all say, oh my god. Her
tomato soupcake is my favorite, with a chocolate cream cheese frosting.
My grandmother was a phenomenal cook and baker. She loved
to show me how to make everything as I lived
with her for twenty five years, and she taught me
everything I know. Anyway, I would love to suggest a
(40:43):
divisive topic of pork roll or tailor ham Jersey girl
on full display here. Well, I definitely look forward to
researching that because I have no idea what either of
those things are. Yeah, I mean either I love a
good divisive topic is as nervous as they make us.
(41:05):
I love them. Um, and I love this tomato soup
and a spice cake with chocolate frosting, chocolate cheese frosting.
I'm still I'm still a little confused. I'm picturing that
it's something like a like a carrot cake or maybe
like a gingerbread cake. Okay, yeah, but but I'm just
I'm just not sure. I mean, that was a recipe
(41:28):
that I ran across during my reading for this episode,
was a gingerbread corn bread, and I was like, uh, yeah,
I got I don't know how to envision that one either,
Although I was also reading about um cush cush or
(41:49):
coush couchh, I'm not sure how to pronounce it. Um
a corn more like a corn pudding kind of situation
out of um, like New Orleans, that area that that
does have more spices involved. So I don't know. Yeah.
M Well, again, willing to try pretty much anything. I mean,
(42:12):
if sixteen grandkids like this tomato soup and a spice cake,
then I mean that's that's pretty good right there, right, Yeah,
if you can get all the grandkids to agree, that's quality. Yeah,
Thanks to both of those listeners for writing in. If
you would like to write to us, we would love
to hear from you. Our email is hello at savor
(42:33):
pod dot com. We are also on social media. You
can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, all three places.
Our handle is at savor pod and we do hope
to hear from you. Savor is a production of my
Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, you can
visit the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. Thank you, as always to
our superproducers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you
(42:56):
for listening, and we hope that lots more good things
are coming your way.
Hello, and welcome to Savor Prodiction of I Heart Radio.
I'm Annie rec and I'm Lauren Vocal Bomb. And today
we're talking about corn bread. Yes, and this is a
food where my southern card gets questioned lot oh yes,
oh yes, because a lot of people have really strong
opinions about it and what it is, yes and what
(00:30):
it is not. There are such strong opinions. I didn't
realize this until like a few years ago. Yeah, and
in the terminology around it here because I'm a lot
of my friends are very Southern, and they they'll just
be like, wait, you cook it and not a cast
off skillet? That's not corn bread? What? Um? Yeah? And
(00:56):
we're talking about it because as this comes out it
is New Year's gig. Cannot believe. I know, right, when
did that happen? When did it's still March? Right? What
what's going on by their March are like September, it's
it's it's you know, depending on the day or or
it's like and I can't tell, Oh my gosh, what
(01:19):
if we like left our apartments then it was like
the future, the future we were promised would happen in
nineteen with like with like floating skateboards and stuff. Yeah. Yeah,
that's that's how you know you're in the future. Nothing else, well,
we'll see I am. Yeah. Well, whatever year it is,
(01:39):
Happy New Year. Supposedly it's but who knows. Um. And
here in the South, cornbread is a part of the
traditional good like southern meal, which we've talked about before
in past episodes. Um, and then cornbread represents coins and
gold and the other things are some type of pork
product um, collared or turn up greens or greens and
(02:02):
black eyed peas, which I make every year. But I
don't make the corn bread actually, and I really don't
have corn bread very often. The only time I have
it generally is in the cornbread stuffing for Thanksgiving and
Christmas that I make, which I actually just had for
lunch left. Oh heck, I okay. Corn Bread stuffing isn't
(02:23):
a thing that I knew existed until I moved to Atlanta.
I still don't think I've ever had it. Um outrage.
In in my family, stuffing was always made with like
white wheat flour bread. Um. And that's yeah. I'm just like, really,
(02:44):
you can put a corn bread is stuffing. It's funny
because I feel the opposite way. But now that you
mentioned it, that makes sense to make it that way.
Oh sure, yeah, yeah, both both big perfect sense. Um.
Cornbread is thing that I started. I had growing up,
a sweet yellow corn bread and um, it's something that
(03:08):
I still get pretty nostalgic for. And uh, my dad
made a lot of Jiffy. My dad was a big,
big proponent of Jiffy uh, Jiffy boxes to um to
serve specifically with chili. That was that was his like special,
I'm making chili and a box of Jiffy corn bread
kind of thing. Um and uh and then on like
(03:30):
like with the leftovers we would have chili mac. So yeah,
yeah that sounds good. Oh gosh it is. And that's
still that's still kind of what I want to do
when I have chili. But um, so, corn bread is
something that I don't think I had made from scratch.
Maybe i'd made it like one other time before, but
I've made it at least twice during quarantine, um, because
(03:54):
I was just like I need comfort, Rode, Well, you've
got me beat there. I've never made it from scratches.
You can judge me. I don't care. I already get
it from my southern friends. It's pretty easy. It's pretty
easy to make um. But but yeah, the looking up
(04:16):
recipes was kind of I think, the first time that
I realized how deep the rabbit hole of opinions goes. Yeah,
oh yeah, it's a it's a deep one. It's I
didn't I didn't know. I didn't know rabbits could dig
that deep. It's it's a lot. Well, you know, one time,
(04:43):
well only one time. Yes, my rabbit Amber, she burrowed
out into the night and we the hole went so deep.
We don't know what happened to her, but I made
it somewhere. Amber is out there to this day, living
the wildlife. Wow, you've had really bad luck with pets.
(05:05):
I absolutely do. I absolutely do. But moving on from that,
you know, my dad, he really likes like the classic
Southern foods. That was his thing. And he would he
would get like, um, collared greens in a cup and
crumple up cornbread in there, and he loved that. And
(05:27):
then he would put corn bread in buttermilk. Oh yeah,
yeah yeah. And I was thinking about this and didn't
we have like a lacy corn bread and we were
in Alabama? Yeah, yeah, that one. Oh gosh, now I'm
and I didn't look it up, and now I'm not
going to be able to pull a name out of
my head. But there was this one lovely restaurant that
we went to, possibly in South Georgia rather than Alabama.
(05:52):
But yeah, like a like a like a real good
like like southern buffet, like like meet and three kind
of kind of place. Um and and yeah, one of
the breads that they had was, um, what's called a
hot water corn bread or yeah, like lacy corn bread
and um, it's it's like real, real thin, like almost
like a like a like a cracker size and and
(06:13):
chewy and crispy and fatty and so good. Oh man, Yeah,
I think I think many in our group went up
for multiple corner Yeah, because and I don't think any
of us, like I spelt like like Andrew is from
you know, the Northeast, and he was like, what is
(06:33):
this magic? And we were like we don't know either,
and so yeah, like it's just amazement all around. Yes, yes,
it was very delicious, But okay, let's get to our question. Yes, yes,
corn bread, what is it? Well, corn bread is a
type of bread made from corn meal. Yeah, yeah, uh,
(07:01):
what else goes? Into. It depends on what textures and
flavors you're you're working with in your corn meal and
what you're going for in your finished product. And uh,
and yet today we're we're talking mostly about types corn
bread that are baked using like a thick batter in
a in a dish or a pan, so that they
(07:21):
bake up slightly raised, um and anywhere from crumbly, too
tender and savory to sweet. Though there are a lot
of other things that you can do with corn meal batters.
You can make flatbreads of various kinds, including that Lacey
cornbread we had, or m Johnny cakes or how cakes
you can deep fried into hush puppies. You can cook
it up into like a like a pudding, like a
(07:42):
spoon bread, use it as the topping of a cast roll,
which I found a lot of recipes for and now
I really want to do if that sounds good. Um.
But corn meal so perhaps obviously UM, if you're making
a bread out of any kind of grain, the qualities
of that grain matter. You know, from the amounts and
(08:04):
types of protein and carbohydrate that grow in the grain,
um to to whether it's harvested fully ripened, and thus
more sugary to whether it's processed whole or with some
bits removed, to how finally and evenly it's ground. Corn
Meal made from white corn um tends to be a
bit naturally sweeter, with a deeper corn flavor, and a
(08:26):
little bit more coarsely and unevenly ground um, often still
by stone mill. Um. Maybe it's a little bit fresher
and like stickier, kind of like self fluffing. Yeah. Um.
And it tends to be more expensive because it is
an artisan product. Um. But you can make a good
corn bread from it, um without adding too much flour
or any sugar at all. Oh, the sugar debate, the
(08:48):
sugar debate. We're getting into it. We're gonna get into it. Um. Uh.
Yellow corn meal, on the other hand, tends to be
a bit more bland, a bit more finally and evenly ground.
Usually buy machine, a little bit drier and more shelf stable. Um.
It's cheaper because it's easier to industrialize, but you'll probably
want to add more flour and sugar to it to
(09:11):
get a tasty corn bread out of it. Of course,
the price issue depends heavily on where you are and
what you know can grow in your backyard. Um, which
is another thing that we will get into. But at
any rate, yes, um so so that's one of those
(09:31):
two corn meals is going to be the basis of
your bread. Um and other ingredients. And yes, some of
these are controversial. I can hear some of you gearing up. Yeah,
the emails already composed, it's already ready to go, no
matter what you said. I yet again, I am only
(09:54):
reporting the facts here, okay, Yes, um so um. You
can indeed add wheat flour to a corn bread up
to equal parts with the corn meal, and that will
make it fluffier. You can technically make corn breads with
(10:15):
with just like corn meal and water. But if you
add fat, that will add some tenderness and some flavor. Um.
It's generally added to the batter in liquid form though,
so it's not going to provide any lift the way
that like creaming butter into a recipe would add lift. Butter, lard, bacon, fat,
or a combination are common, although you can use olive
(10:36):
oil or other plant oils. Eggs in there will provide
lift and also tenderness. Um. You'd add fewer for more
crumbly bread, and more for a cakier bread. Um. Depending
on how much lift you want, you can add varying
amounts of baking powder and baking soda. Adding butter milk
will provide a depth of flavor to the finished bread. Um,
and and the acid in that buttermilk will activate the
(10:59):
bake ping soda to help lift the bread. If you're
using baking soda also gets a little bit more fat
in there, a little bit more tenderness. Some folks add
sour cream to for similar purposes. Um. Adding a bit
of sugar can make up for the lack of flavor
in some yellow corn meals, or you can add like
a bunch more than that for sweeter bread. More sugar
(11:21):
also does create a little bit more tenderness. You can
put addens in there. Um. This is not a thing
that my family does, and I still don't really understand it.
But um, but but it sounds delicious. Like you can
added a whole kernels of corn. You can add in cream, corn, um,
all kinds of cheeses, chopped chilies, whatever you want, Bacon,
the calpino alpino cheese corn bread is pretty popular around
(11:45):
in barbecue places around these certainly, Yeah, yeah, I'm not
going to say no to it. I love it. Yeah. Sure,
I wish I'd taken a picture of what I had
for lunch. She would have gotten a kick out of it.
But it was like five different sauces. I was. It
was just a plate and I was dipping things into
the hot So this is not my surprised face at all.
(12:11):
It was delicious. Uh. Did you get a bunch of
hot sauces for like the holidays? I did. I got
at least six. Oh my gosh, that is glorious from
like different humans. Different humans all got you hot. That's great,
that's really cool. They know they do, they do, Oh jeez. Um.
(12:33):
And then uh, then I would say the final ingredient,
um is what you already brought up annie. Um. That
that that that pan that you use, um and uh.
And that pan is traditionally in the South a cast
iron skillet. Um. And I mean you can make a
cornbread without one. Um, but cast iron skillet is a
(12:54):
great vehicle because you can you can preheat it in
the oven um, and or else your fat in it
on the stovetop, and so then it's a it's it's
nice and hot when you pour your batter in UM
and that helps get a get a good crust started. Yeah,
this is where I get a lot of judgment because
I never use a cast iron skillet to do this.
(13:16):
Apparently that's like not a pone of corn bread, and
that's what I should be making. Well, I raised my
hands and defeats, and that's between you and your cornbread.
Got any res I can't. Oh no, I think it
says something about me that every time, like the issue
(13:36):
of some type of god comes up on me, being
like oh no, oh whick, judgment will be fierce and
swift and and or again we just watched too much supernatural.
Who knows? Who knows? It could be that I think
D and D I roe that pun look at that?
(13:56):
OHT know? Okay, corn bread, Um, the result, the result
of all of this, you know, really depends on what
you did. Um. You can make a corn bread that's
a couple of inches tall and fluffy and tender and
sweet like a muffin, almost more like a cake than
a bread. You can make a corn bread that's less
(14:18):
than a niche, thick and crumbly and a little bit
coarse and like salty and savory. Um, almost more like
a flatbread than a than a breadbread. Um, both probably
have a nice chewy crust, I will say, and you
can make something anywhere in between. All are valid. You
are valid. Thank you, Lauren, You're welcome. That's what I
(14:40):
needed to hear. And yeah, Lauren and I were talking
before we get started and before I really derailed everything
with my traumatic story about my rabbit as a kid. Um,
there's so many like ways we could have gone, so
many ways. Corn bread is used and has been used
as an ingredient in different dishes. Some things I did
(15:01):
want to mention is crumble in which I've never heard of, uh,
and corn bread dressing. Yes, so we're going to touch
on a little bit later. But these could be a
whole other episodes. Oh oh yes, um uh and probably
will be at some point in the future. There were Yeah,
there were so many different directions that I wanted to
go down. Um uh. Yeah. I was just saying to
(15:22):
Annie before we started, like I could have just kept
reading about this like kind of forever. Um, I really
want to do horrifying, lee complicated episode about the industrialization
of corn now. Yes, um, but yeah, I've been wanting
to do that for a while. And that's how you
know we're food podcast nerds. Well what are you really
(15:45):
excited about right now? The industrialization of corn? Why aren't
you weird? Well, what about the nutrition? Again, it depends
on how you make it. Um. And you know, bread
(16:05):
in general is not like a health food. Um. But
and like I don't know, like like running running the numbers.
Corn bread tends to have a little bit more fat
than most wheatbreads probably do. But those also depend on
how you make them. Um said, it's food, Eat it,
(16:26):
eat it. It's a good it's a good thing. It
helps fill you up, um, to help keep you going.
Eat a vegetable and probably some protein and some protein
in the words of the genius of our time, weird
Al Yankovic. Just eat it. Just eat it if you
want to, if you want to add there, Yeah you
(16:54):
um numbers Wise, you don't really have much. I will say.
There have been a lot of books written about corn bread. Yeah,
especially recently. Um, I and I and I love this.
I love um that this, uh, this entire cultural phenomenon
is is really being dissected and given the weight that
that that it deserves. Yeah, and it it moves a
(17:14):
lot of people, Like several things. I read were really poetic,
and I was like, oh, corn bread, Yeah, and it's
long inspired strong opinions and thoughtful pros. Mark Twain wrote
in his autobiography the North thinks it knows how to
make cornbread, but this is gross superstition. Rebecca Powers wrote
(17:38):
an abuse for The Washington Post in the America's cornmeal
maybe the most indigenous of ingredients, spiralering across regions and
among ethnicities and races, like a genetic double helix. I know,
I love that. Oh that is beautiful. Um, the the
most the most poetic one that I read was, um
(17:59):
that you know you should you should serve corn bread
either piping hot or completely cool, because quote, tepid corn
bread is the penance of poor planning. Yeah. That was
from the Bitter Southerner, from an article by Sherry Castle.
(18:19):
That's great, Yeah for planning. Heaven forbid. Well, we have
so much history for you, Oh we do. But first
we've got a quick break for a word from our sponsor,
(18:43):
and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. So
cornbread's history in North America goes back thousands of years
to indigenous people's mixing ground up maze with salt, and water,
sometimes with fat and frequently flattened. They would flatten this
exture into cakes that were very filling, if not a
bit bland. Um. One of America's most valuable native crops,
(19:07):
corn was very prized and used to make a whole
host of things, from bread to alcoholic beverages and all
kinds of stuff in between. Yeah yeah, And it was
also taken note of by the European explorers and colonizers
who started coming over around the uh the Furtune and
fifteen hundreds and some of whom um, the Portuguese specifically
(19:31):
brought corn from the America's over to Africa, and so
corn meal was thus incorporated into cuisines in various cultures
around the continent there um, and it is the base
of just, for example, um the porridge side digit gali,
So stuff like that, yeah h uh. When European colonists
arrived to the America's they adapted the cornbread recipe that
(19:52):
was already there to fit their culinary preferences in a
way to make it feel more like home. And these
early seventeenth century recipes were simple, um, tailored to what
was available, and relying largely on butter and eggs for
flavor to make a longer lasting cornbread, cook started adding
yeasts and wheat in the eighteen hundreds if they could
(20:13):
afford them. Both were pretty expensive. The chemical levener potash
was sometimes used instead to give cornbread lift. Um. And
this is where the addition of buttermilk would have come in,
not just for its flavor, but also because that the
acid and buttermilk reacts with potash as it does in
more modern baking soda to provide lift and so yeah
(20:34):
either way. Um. This was the start of liftier corn
breads um, including flat bread like Johnny Cakes and more
muffin like corn pones m m uh. This corn pone
was often cooked in either a Dutch oven or greased
iron skillet, with the lid placed right over hot coals
to make sure the red heated evenly. The lid was
(20:56):
also covered with embers. Yes. And of note, at the time,
corn referred to all types of grains um, and maize
referred specifically to corn. Yeah. If you're ever looking into
the history of this for yourself, then that's a really
confusing thing until you get it firmly into your head.
Um yeah yes um. Also of note, um, the corn
(21:19):
meal that was being used at the time was probably
mainly white corn meal. Um, a little bit sweeter, more
naturally fluffy. This will come back later on, yes. Um.
After comparing several types of corn bread in Virginia, a
correspondent from The Times wrote in it will be observed
that none of them is sugar used. There are corn
(21:41):
meal pudding served with sweet sauces, but no Southern cook
would risk the spoiling of her corn breads by sweetening them. Oh,
the beginning of the sugar debate. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay,
so so part of the reason that sugar would not
have been used in corn bread itself was because sugar
was dang expensive at the time. Um. You know, it
(22:03):
might have been a table side seasoning, like if you
were fortunate enough to be able to afford it, But
but only the wealthy would have been able to afford
to bake sweet things with any regularity. Um, and cornbread
was a sustenance food, you know, like you would save
that sugar if you had it for a special occasion
baked good um, which, to be fair, could include um,
fancy celebration corn breads, fancy celebration cornbread. It was apparently
(22:29):
a thing no well, I can understand. From the beginning,
columnists arriving to the South eight primarily cornbread over other
bread products, and this was the norm until the twentieth century,
which is also when wheat flour and sugar started showing
up more commonlying recipes for those that yes could afford
it um. This was also in part because corn grew
(22:50):
well in the South while wheat and rye flourished in
the North. Only rich people in the South ate something
other than cornbread on a regular basis. When it came
to bread products. For most Southerners, wheat biscuits were for
special occasions, special location. Wheat. Yeah, A lot of these
recipes weren't recorded, but instead passed from mothers to daughters
(23:10):
a prized family secret. In in eighteen fifty three New
York Times article detailing Texas, the author wrote, in the
interior of the country, cornbread forms the staple article of
the diet, anything composed of wheat flour being about as
scarce as ice cream in Sahara or Sahara, however you prefer.
(23:33):
Because corn grew easily and in less than ideal conditions,
particularly in the South, it was a stable for the
poor and enslaved people. In his book The Cooking, Jean
Michael Twitter wrote that cornbread mashed up with pot liquer
is quote the oldest baby food known to black people
in America, going back to the days of slavery. Yeah. Um,
some enslaved peoples would have been familiar with corn and
(23:56):
corn meal from their culinary traditions in Africa, and probably
for the white upper class and possibly for the for
the white lower classes as well. Southern cornbread traditions grew
out of what enslaved people were doing in their kitchens
and then passing along through their communities as they cooked
(24:17):
in wealthy white households. Um, and then lower class white
people saw what those households were doing, right Yeah yeah.
And speaking of those wealthy households, I guess according to Vice,
a Victorian era Southern lady or ladies changed the name
of stuffing to dressing when it comes to that product
(24:41):
due to the English slang meaning of stuffed. Um. Yeah,
a future episode and while it was a doozy, that
was another one where I was reading about it, like
what stuff it can't go down this rabbit all today? Yeah, yeah,
I think we call it dressing in my house exclusively. Yeah, yeah,
(25:05):
I pretty exclusively call it stuffing, even though I would
never dare put a bread product into a bird and
then cook the bird, right, I'm not doing that part
of it. But yeah, we do. I think we do
call it stuffing more. I think we switch. But that's
very very funny if that's true, that's hilarious. Yeah. During
(25:28):
the nineteenth century, most farmers got corn meal for their
families by toll milling, so they'd go to their local
mills with their own corn to get a ground and
they pay the miller with some of the resulting corn meal.
Around the beginning of the twentieth century, traditional stone mills
were slowly replaced by mills that used these large steel
cylinders to roll things out, and these were more efficient
(25:51):
when it came to removing the corn kernel and germ,
which was really good for shell stability but not so
great for a flavor. The texture of the meal was
also more homogenized, which for cornbread was not necessarily a
good thing. That's not really what you were going for
a lot of the time, um necessitating wheat flour to
get that same rise. The sugar was also added as
(26:15):
a result of this, or at least it started to
be added more commonly so make up for lost flavor. Um.
A change in the type of corn that was being
milled had something to do with this too, And um
some people used molasses in sugars place. Yeah yeah, molasses
would have been a more common sweetener in general and
like less than wealthy households. Um. But yeah yeah that
(26:38):
that that switching corn um Uh so okay, these these
hybrid yellow types of corn that were higher yielding, um
like cheaper to grow, began replacing white corn for industrially
made corn meal after the Civil War and um, by
like the nineteen sixties, some of the old varieties were
(26:58):
nearly extinct. Yeah. Yeah. And this debate around sugar, which
I uh, I didn't know it was such a huge deal.
I did know that they are very strong opinions about
a lot of things with cornbread, But the sugar thing
was when I wasn't very familiar with. But it isn't
like the top two like Google search page results. It's
(27:19):
like sugar sugar at sugar don't have sugar? What is this? Yeah?
So that the debate around that and white versus yellow
corn meal does often ignore questions of class and race.
So Michael Twitter wrote about this too quote It's a
lot deeper than it appears. It's actually a gauge of
who gets to call what southern southern? So often what
(27:42):
is southern? How is southern? Why is southern? Has been
determined by Southern white people. Is a part of the
larger discussion of whether or not you see Southern culture
from the perspective of the big house or the slave quarters.
We're still having this argument one hundred years later, but
we're using different vehicles to have it, including cornbread. Yeah.
(28:02):
Uh yeah, well we'll we'll keep we'll keep getting into that.
And it does, it does flow through the rest of
this timeline. Um so um so so sweetened yellow corn
bread UM is sometimes considered a Northern thing um and
it might have caught on in the North partially because
yellow corn meal was what was available there, um, but
(28:25):
partially because of the Great Migration of the early nineteen hundreds,
in which many black Americans from the South moved northward
looking for new opportunities, um, bringing their culinary traditions with them.
The Times had more to say about corn red in seven,
with an article claiming corn red and Kentucky is made
with white coarsely ground corn meal. Never never are sugar
(28:47):
and wheat flour used in cornbread. Water ground corn meal
and water ground whole wheat flour have still a market
in Kentucky and are still used with delight. And oh
and this is where it gets been more complicated because okay,
white corn meal is a local product in Kentucky. Um,
you know, wheat flour and sugar and yellow corn meal
(29:09):
for that matter would have been expensive. Um, but working
class people could have grown their own white corn So
although kind of traditionally white unsweetened corn bread might have
been an upper class thing, there are these whole pockets
of the South for whom it's the opposite. Uh. And
(29:32):
it's really confounding. And I and I adore this um Uh.
I think I think it's just a just a really
interesting and good example of, um, of how race and
class intersect and how the South is not a monolith,
you know, like the South is this entire broad band
of different cultures um that all have their own traditions
(29:55):
and they're all inter related in really confusing ways. Um.
But yeah, Um, Meanwhile, Jiffy debuted their corn bread or
corn muffin mix in nineteen fifty. It includes yellow corn
meal and sugar, and today flash forward to the present,
(30:15):
Jiffy corn muffin mix is responsible for of the corn
muffin mis sold in the United States, um, making it
the second most sold dry grocery product behind chicken ramen.
What like It's like it's a head of Kraft Macaroni
and cheese. What yeah. Um, the next most popular corn
(30:39):
muffin mix after that, by Martha White, has only one
percent of the US market. Wow, Jeffy's got a real
hold they do. It's fascinating. Is that shocks me? Yeah? Yeah,
well it's you know, um, it's it's used again these
(31:02):
pockets of Southern culture and what is southern and kind
of like going into the difference between southern culture and
soul food, or our southern food and soult food, because
frequently the soul food version of corn bread is going
to be the sweeter one, even though it's Southern. Yeah. Wow, wow,
(31:22):
I have I have a lot to think about now,
I'm pretty sure. I mean that's all I've ever made,
um from a corn bread uh huh yeah, Oh my god. Yeah.
Now I really want to track down like silly expensive
white corn meal and try making corn bread out of that.
I've only ever used yellow anyway. Uh. In a Dorothy
(31:44):
Robinson wrote for the Richmond Times, cooks who paid attention
knew there was a difference, a very different product from
the yellow corn meal of the North. It's this white
water ground meal of the South. The two are not
interchangeable in recipes. Most standard cookbooks, with the exception of
a comparative few devoted to Southern cooking, have concerned themselves
with yellow corn meal recipes as if they did not
(32:04):
know any other kind exclamation point. They do not even
distinguish between the two. They simply say, naively, a cup
of corn meal when listing ingredients in a recipe. Oh
and in nineteen fifty someone wrote into The Times picka
unit in New Orleans, Um, who's got coarse grits? The
(32:26):
only grits we can get is very fine and no
better than mush. In short, I'm advertising for some grocer
or other individuals selling coarse grits. To drop me a line.
Ah wow, this is wonderful. I know, I know, I
love it. Skipping way ahead, in Sarah van Tera wrote
(32:50):
a piece called Here's why Sean Brock is willing to
break international laws for corn bread. I remember that when
that article came out and I put cornbread on our
list because I was like what uh yeah, and it's
all about brock journey to resurrect a variety of corn
known as Jimmy Red because, as you were saying, a
lot of those corn varieties that we used to use
(33:10):
are either when extinct or very little people left growing them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
With with mass mass farming practices, big egg and all
that um hoof hoof. Indeed, uh, so many this has
open so many other pass for us to follow at
(33:32):
a later date. Yes, yes, oh, and I and I
look forward to them deeply. Um, because yeah, that there
are so many corn meal related dishes that um that
are that that that I'm unfamiliar with, um that I
would like to become familiar with, you know, both research
wise and like with my stomach. Um. That's one of
(33:55):
the nicest ways of saying you're going to eat something
I've ever heard. I would like to become familiar with that. Yeah. Yeah,
I just I just wanna, I just want to eat
(34:15):
you corn meal lots of different ways. Well, here's hoping
uh opens that for you. Yes, fingers cratched that I'll
get get my get myself together and do more cooking
or be able to go someplace any place and have
(34:38):
someone cook something for me. Yes. Uh. And you can
send those thoughts too. As in speaking of we do
have some lister mail, Yes we do. At first, We've
got one more quick break for a word from our
sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you.
(35:03):
And we're back with cast aron skillet method that I
never do, but you're bringing it out the oven't our
connection is really interesting today listeners? So that was yeah, Yeah,
there's Yeah, there's a couple of places where I'm just
(35:26):
taking it on faith that that Annie hasn't gone wildly
off outline. That's very risky of you. That is a
roll of the dice, in fact, but I think it
worked out. Producer Andrew can take care of it and
post he is a magician. So you have a letter
(35:48):
from Andrew, Theresa's guy who we've mentioned before. Um he wrote, Hopefully,
once we defeat this pandemic and are all allowed to
have socialized again, I would love nothing more than to
meet you both and share a Reese's and talk about
everything from Reese's to Marvel, and everything else under our
shared nerdy passions. On that note, I am curious what
(36:10):
are each of your favorite Reese's products. To most of
my follower's surprise, the regular Reese's cup is not my
favorite Reess product. In fact, it's not even in my
top five I know, in no particular order. It's Reese's
Fast Break. Any white chocolate, white cream reces, Reese's covered
pret Souls, Reese's ice cream, egged shaped Reese is okay.
(36:37):
If the Hershey Company ever brings back the inside out
races where the peanut butter is on the outside and
chocolate is on the inside, I'm sure that will infiltrate
my top five. Also, I'm unsure if you both were aware,
but I have recently discovered peanut butter whiskey. There are
a few different brands like Screwball, P B and W,
and Sheep Dog who have sent me bottles to try.
(36:58):
Nothing beats having your favorite can de brand send you
free candy and your favorite alcohol also being sent for free.
I'm not an average drinker, but peanut butter whisky has
definitely improved my hot chocolates and eggnogs this winter. They're
also quite delicious on their own. If you're into sweet
tasting whiskeys, I've been meaning to try those for a while.
(37:21):
I feel like I have had one and I liked it,
but it was like just a tiny little tasting bigger
I need a bigger sampling to make clear, clearly clearly
it's not on Yeah, yeah, I generally do not like
sweet tasting whiskeys, but I'm willing to try anything um
(37:44):
or pretty much. So yeah, I'm I'm curious. I'm curious
how that flavor profile goes together. It seems like it
would go well. I've definitely had a peanut butter beer
that I really liked and it surprised me. But I
mean it was heavy, and I think you really have
to go in knowing what you're getting. Sure you took
us a price tip of that, which I've done, it's
not going to be a happy day. But if you're like, oh,
(38:05):
this is going to be like a heavy, kind of
sweeter thing, yeah, yeah, that's again, I would try it.
But um, but sweet flavors and beers are not what
I'm there for. Um. I generally like my alcohol to
be fairly fairly on the dry end. But but oh gosh,
(38:26):
I I get like, like, just like Reese's Pieces might
be my favorite iteration products. Yeah, yeah, I love Reese's
Pieces And I went through a really big Reese's Pieces phase.
Like that was one of my top candies. I would
sneak into movie theater that in the twist and fill um.
(38:47):
But I really like I like fast Right too because
it's kind of kind of a combination between Kit Cats,
which is my other favorite, and Reese's. And then I
like a I like a good like big cup, not
not the big big cup, but like the medium the
medium big cup, not the man but that that. Yeah.
(39:07):
Oh for Christmas, my older brother he loves ess and
my mom, so we we're trying to guess what this
gift was because it was this huge package but it
was thin. It was like maybe the size of my
hand across. But and he opened it up and it
was like eighteen humongous. Wow that is it was awesome.
(39:35):
That's delightful. It was awesome. My little brother got one
for Kitcats as well, so that was really fun. Yeah. Yeah,
I got basically like nothing but snacks this Christmas. Like
that was everyone just like it's it's like they know me,
like they were just like all Laura needs more snacks
like that delightful. Yes, oh yes, um Danielle wrote, Hey, ladies,
(40:02):
just got around to listening to your condensed Campbell Soup episode.
I'm a New Jersey native, so Campbell Soup is appointed
pride for me. I was listening during my lunch and
I nearly jumped out of my seat when I heard
you mentioned tomato soup and a spiced cake. My grandmother,
who passed in July. Oh, I'm sorry. Um made tomato
soup cake all the time. It's legendary in my family.
(40:22):
If you mentioned it in the presence of any of
her sixteen grandkids, we all say, oh my god. Her
tomato soupcake is my favorite, with a chocolate cream cheese frosting.
My grandmother was a phenomenal cook and baker. She loved
to show me how to make everything as I lived
with her for twenty five years, and she taught me
everything I know. Anyway, I would love to suggest a
(40:43):
divisive topic of pork roll or tailor ham Jersey girl
on full display here. Well, I definitely look forward to
researching that because I have no idea what either of
those things are. Yeah, I mean either I love a
good divisive topic is as nervous as they make us.
(41:05):
I love them. Um, and I love this tomato soup
and a spice cake with chocolate frosting, chocolate cheese frosting.
I'm still I'm still a little confused. I'm picturing that
it's something like a like a carrot cake or maybe
like a gingerbread cake. Okay, yeah, but but I'm just
I'm just not sure. I mean, that was a recipe
(41:28):
that I ran across during my reading for this episode,
was a gingerbread corn bread, and I was like, uh, yeah,
I got I don't know how to envision that one either,
Although I was also reading about um cush cush or
(41:49):
coush couchh, I'm not sure how to pronounce it. Um
a corn more like a corn pudding kind of situation
out of um, like New Orleans, that area that that
does have more spices involved. So I don't know. Yeah.
M Well, again, willing to try pretty much anything. I mean,
(42:12):
if sixteen grandkids like this tomato soup and a spice cake,
then I mean that's that's pretty good right there, right, Yeah,
if you can get all the grandkids to agree, that's quality. Yeah,
Thanks to both of those listeners for writing in. If
you would like to write to us, we would love
to hear from you. Our email is hello at savor
(42:33):
pod dot com. We are also on social media. You
can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, all three places.
Our handle is at savor pod and we do hope
to hear from you. Savor is a production of my
Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, you can
visit the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. Thank you, as always to
our superproducers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you
(42:56):
for listening, and we hope that lots more good things
are coming your way.
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Lauren Vogelbaum
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