The Academia of the Macadamia

Macadamia nuts are often associated with Hawaii, but they didn’t originate there. Anney and Lauren delve into the genetic and cultural history of the trees that produce this sweet, buttery seed.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello, malcolme to savor protection of I Heart Radio and
STEPH Media. I'm Any and I'm Lauren voc Obam and
today we're talking about macadamia nuts and and Hawaii Hawaii
adjacent food. Yeah. What they gave us on the plane
a sort of a welcome gift. And also when we
left right yes, both both to and from Oahho, we

(00:30):
received a little a little single serving chocolate covered macadamiaut package,
which I don't know it was. It was especially I
was like, oh how sweet. I love food, so thank you. Um.
And then later one of our interviewees was like that
whole like Hawaii equals macadamia nuts thing is so false,
and I was like, yeah, I think someone said it

(00:54):
was dated. Yeah, well but it was a delicious candy
us even though I opened it very excitedly and it
was like two in there, one or two. Yeah, I
didn't know. I don't have much experience with macadamia nuts. No,
but I did read a nine five page paper on

(01:16):
them for this episode, although it was more like seventy
pages because there was a lot of references and pictures. Okay,
all right, Um. It was about as dry as you
can imagine, which which paper was it? It was kind
of a It was written in the eighties, I think,
and it was more about There was some history in there,

(01:37):
but it was mostly about how to grow them and
diseases they have to look out for, and just like
growing them in every country. You can imagine. Cool. It
was cool, are you know? I'm very I was very
happy to find it. Yeah. No, I get so excited
when I realized that a paper that I've just found

(01:58):
is reproduced in full without a paywall on the interwebs.
It's a beautiful thing. There's ways to get around those paywalls.
Were subscribed to a number of academic journals and stuff
like that, but oh man, not having to dig for
passwords and yeah, oh gosh, I don't even know where
the packards are anymore. But okay, let's get to our question.

(02:23):
Macadam nuts, what are they? Well, macadamia nuts are not
true nuts. They're foiled again. Did you want to know
what some examples of true nuts are? I do, because
at this point I'm not sure they exist. Alright. True

(02:44):
nuts are are things like acorns and chestnuts that are
that are fused or at least partially fused to their shells.
Train is going through roller text how much that clarifies.
But but at any rate, we'll have to do like
nuts in the future. Y yeah, um okay, or acorns.

(03:05):
I mean I don't know anyway. Macadamia nuts, Yes, they grow.
I'm just gonna call them nuts for this episode. It's
common parlance. Um. They grow on trees in the genus
Macadamia makes sense, um, two species of which produce seeds
that are particularly tasty and edible. Um. Important. The trees
have glossy evergreen leaves and grow these big, oblong spikes

(03:28):
of of little white flowers. And the flowers have these
really long stamens like tassels. Huh, I love it anyway. Um.
The flowers, if pollinated by bees or humans, will develop
into clusters of nuts. Each has a leathery green husk um.
Technically this is the tree's fruit um, which will split

(03:49):
open as the nuts starts reaching maturity, revealing a hard
shell that encases the edible, creamy white seed. Uh. The
whole husk will drop off the tree when that's seed
is mature. Husks are removed, and the that the nuts
are typically dried, whole shell intact for later processing. The
shell is up to the weight of a macadamia which

(04:11):
is why one of the reasons why there's so much
more expensive shelled than unshelled. Really m hm huh uh.
And these trees drop nuts like for three quarters of
the year straight. Um. In Hawaii it's July through March.
And they can be harvested by hand. Um. They're usually
harvested by hand. They can also be harvested by machine.
But um, it's a little bit there. You get less

(04:32):
of a less of a yield due to breakage and
stuff like that. Right, what about the nutrition. Uh, Macadamia nuts,
like many nuts, are relatively high calorie food. Um. They're
comprised mostly of fats. Lots of good fats in there though.
Um punches a fiber and protein and a smattering of
vitamins and minerals, lots of manganese and diamon. Specifically, a

(04:53):
small amount of macadamia nuts will fill you up and
keep you going. Um. Though, nuts are kind of easy
to over snack on, so at your portion sizes or
chop them up and atom to a sweet or savory
dishes for a little crunchy kick of those nutrients. Research
in the early two thousand's indicated that switching out less
healthy snacks um and toppings with macadamia's can help people

(05:16):
reduce their bad L d L cholesterol levels. Um so
just grain of salt. The studies were supported by Hershey,
which at the time owned mounta Looa macademia nut processing confectionery,
et cetera. Right, so so, yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean
that it was bad research, just something to keep in mind,

(05:37):
absolutely when it comes to numbers. Speaking of things to
keep in mind, at one time of the world's macadamia
nuts came from Hawaii. Actually got really confused because a
lot of people. There are a lot of articles where
people were claiming this country makes the most, this country
makes the most at one time, okay, came from why.

(06:00):
Due to pests and weather, Hawaiian macadamia nut production dropped
to a twenty six year low in two thousand eight.
The price of harvesting them was so high farmers let
the nuts drop and rought. Yeah. Demand has led other
countries to start growing at macadaemia nuts as well. New Zealand, Mexico, Guatemala, Brazil,

(06:21):
Costa Rica, South Africa, Israel, Kenya, Zimbabwe, and the US,
with other parts of the US mainland US, with California
and Florida producing the most. Outside of Hawaii, Australia produces
an annual forty thousand metric tons of in shell nuts,
and globally one hundred thousand metric tons are produced. Hawaii's
mounta Ioa macademia nut core is the world's largest manufacture

(06:43):
of macadamia nuts today, with ten thousand acres planted on
volcanic soil. The most expensive hybrid is New Zealand's Beaumont,
which doesn't drop its macadamia as, making them costly to harvest.
The Australian macademia nut industry generates one hundred million dollars
a year, and prices do fluctuate, but they are generally

(07:03):
more expensive than other nuts, and demand is outpacing supply
right now, which contributes to that expense. Um. Health food
trends emphasizing good fat diets in China and the US
are partially driving this. On the plus side, in Australia
at least, industry experts say that the higher costs to
consumers are going to the farmers, so that's cool, Yeah, totally.

(07:26):
A mature macademia tree will grow about fifty pounds of
nuts per year, and there are all kinds of uses
covered in chocolate, one in cookies macademia oil. They're typically
sold shelled, roasted, and salted when pressed for their oil
for using personal care products or foods. Um. The leftover
solids are often used for animal feed, and the shells

(07:47):
are used in things like mulch or as a wood
substitute and coffee roasting. That's particularly useful, by the way,
because macademias and coffee like just about the same environmental conditions,
so they can be grown kind next to one another.
The shells are also sometimes used as a fuel source
in the machines used for macadamia nut harvesting cannibalism. It's

(08:11):
like the kit catch. Oh, if you don't know what
I mean, you will find our kick out of us m.
The shells are also sometimes used as a substitute um.
They're ground up and uses a substitute for the sand
and sand blasting. Yeah, yeah, lots of things going for it.

(08:32):
The trees are sometimes grown for ornamental purposes and captive
hyacinthe because frequently get fed macadamia nuts since they are
one of the few creatures that can crack them. But
they are toxic to dogs. Don't give them to dogs. No. Um, yeah,
macadamia shells are strong, like up to five times as
strong as other nuts their size, and like shell thickness,

(08:52):
So one tough nut. Oh my gosh, I apologize. What
I don't apologize for is the history we're about to share. Yes,
but first we're going to share a quick break for
a word from our sponsor. We're back. Thank you sponsored, Yes,

(09:19):
thank you. Since modern lee until recent modern times, a
majority of our macadamia nuts, at least in the US
specifically have come from Hawaii. And they're a big souvenir
slash welcome gifts thing from Hawaii. It would be a
sound logical leap to think they originated from Hawaii. But alas,
the macadamia nut did not urginate in Hawaii. Nope, they

(09:43):
originated in Australia, Northeastern Australia to be exact, probably millions
of years ago. Ah yeah, like like late Cretaceous. What up?
They Recent research suggests that most or all or all
of Hawaii's macadamia nuts came from a small crop of trees,

(10:05):
or maybe just one tree in Queensland, Australia. That's how
small the gene pool is, which is a risk when
it comes to disease and things like that. Australia has
a bit more diversity when it comes to their trees.
Of Macadamia nuts are believe to come from a single
tree in Australia. Oh yeah, yeah, and that's because graphs

(10:28):
from that single tree and then it's daughter trees were
used to propagate these huge populations. Um, this is the
original method of cloning, before we had you know, like
Dolly the Sheep and all that stuff. Oh, I haven't
thought about Dolly the Sheep in a long time. That's
a throwback. She's always right, there is always always waiting
for the right opportunity to be mentioned. And it's the

(10:48):
Macadamia nut podcast. Obviously I might be I might have
sheep on the brain. Another thing, aside from coffee, that
was recommended to uh to farm alongside your macadaemia tree crop.
Um was cheap to help clear the groundcover and stuff.
Oh this is I've never played those games where you

(11:09):
like build a little settlement for yourself, but I feel
like this these are the blocks, like sheets, are there
sheep involved? There are they are sheep involved in settlers? Well?
There are fields with sheep in them, but everyone just
refers to them as sheep. Okay, yeah, I need to
replay that next game night. Oh yeah, okay. Australian Aborigines

(11:32):
snacked on academia nuts, which they called kindle, boom, bara,
jindal and papal during the winter months. They were a
delicacy at the time, and because of that, they were
used as ceremonial gifts between tribes and traded between tribes.
Women would collect the nuts and bags, take them back
to their feasting grounds and crack them using a technique
involving a flat stone with an endant placed where you

(11:56):
would put the nuts. Yeah, and then another stone used
to deliver a blow that would force it open. Yeah.
They were eating raw are roasted. Bitter spices of the
nut were ground up into a paste and then washed
with cold water before consumed. They used the oil for
face and body paint and yeah. Macademias seemed to have

(12:16):
been a foraged food rather than a cultivated food. There
was a legend about the origin of one of the
names of the macademia nut from a retailing from the
senior elder of the Bucella tribe of Frasier island Olga Miller,
and we're going to condense it a bit um. But
here we go a long time ago in the dreamtime,
when the messenger God left the mountain, Papaul agreed to

(12:39):
watch the mountain. It was a long journey, and unbeknownst
to Papaul, his friend, the Jewel Lizard, had hitched a
ride with him. When Papaul arrived to the mountain, the
lizard jumped out. To Papaul's surprise, he asked the lizard,
why have you come, and the lizard responded, I didn't
want you to be alone. Yeah. One day, when Papaul
was walking, he tripped and hurt his foot. Away from

(12:59):
food and water, the jewel Lizard asked the rock wallaby
what do I do? And they decided we've got to
get them some water. However, they found they couldn't reach
the water, so the rock wallaby found a kangaroo to help.
They gave the water to Papaul, and then they decided
to get him food with the help of the cockatoo.
The cockatoo collected seats and spread them all over the

(13:19):
mountain so Papaul would have food. And yes, macadaemia trees
and macadamia seas. Then the jewel Lizard and rock Wallaby
asked the cockatoo to help them gather leaves for a fire.
The cockatoo collected leaves from the macadaemia trees and they
started a fire. People on the islands all the smoke
and sent help for Papaul once rescued. The people named
the nuts Papal's nuts, and the lizard was called Papa's Lizard,

(13:42):
and the mountain Papal's mountain. Yeah. Lovely friendship working together. Yeah.
British colonists discovered the macadamia nut in eighteen fifty seven
in Queensland, Australia, although Alan Cunningham sometimes gets credit for
finding them before in eight and German explorer or German

(14:03):
Army deserter depending on the source, Ludwig Likeheart recorded one
in eighteen forty three and delivered a sample to Melbourne,
which is still on display at the National Herbarium, whatever
the case. The director of the Botany Gardens in Brisbane,
Walter Hill, found one, used to vice to open it
and planted the seed. Allegedly that tree is still producing

(14:25):
macadamia nuts. The first known cultivated mcdamian tree dated back
to eighteen. Yeah, it's still alive in producing that's wild,
it is, It's amazing. At the time, Walter Hill's travel
buddy was the so called Father of Australian botany and
then the Royal Botanist in Melbourne, Baron Ferdinand von Mueller.

(14:47):
According to legend, he named the tree after a friend
of his, John McCadam. Unfortunately, McCadam, who was a physician
and a member of the Philosophical Institute of Victoria, died
unexpected to lee on his way to New Zealand before
he could try the nuts bearing his name um the seed.
I guess by the way, he was on his way

(15:08):
to provide his chemical expertise in a murder trial involving poison.
Oh past injury. Yes. Also, according to legend, Walter Hill
observed a boy eating the nut with no ill effects
in eighty eight and believed it to be the first
case of a non indigenous person eating one. Was he

(15:29):
like testing to see it was poison on this? It
was he like, hey, urchin, you try this? Don't you
want to try this thing? Some stories say it was
a young associate that Hill asked to help him crack them,
and Hill himself believed that they were poisonous, but the
associate didn't know that and ate them before he could

(15:52):
say anything, and he claimed that they were delicious, and
Hill was like, Okay, you're not dead, so that's great, huh,
all right, well yes. In the eighteen sixties, the original
elder of the Logan River clan, King Jackie, directed his
tribe to collect and trade at macadamia nuts with traders.
The first known orchard in Australia was planted in eighteen ninety,

(16:14):
with two hundred and fifty trees. From there, the hybrids
were grown from seas and grafting was frequently employed. These
grafting techniques and the invention of mechanized processing allowed for
the commercial protection of macadamia nuts for the very first time.
The dude behind those grafting techniques, Norm Gerber, is frequently
referred to as the father of Australia's macadamia nut industry.

(16:36):
Australian botanist Joseph Maiden wrote in eighteen eighty nine it
is well worth extensive cultivation, for the nuts are always
eagerly bought. Alright, Well there you go, yeah, stepping back
a bit to one William Purvis planted the first macadamia
tree on Hawaii's Big Island. About a decade later, are

(16:57):
A Jordan planted some macadamia trees on Oahu, the trees
that researchers think is the ancestor of most of Hawaii's trees,
and the nut quickly became a popular snack among businessmen
who came to Hawaii to profit off sugar plantations. Also, allegedly,
one of his first trees still produces nuts and yeah,
these two trees were of the same species, Macademia in trigifolia.

(17:22):
In nineteen ten, to supplement the coffee on Hawaii's Conic Coast,
the Hawaiian Agricultural Experiment Station that h a e S
recommended growing Macademia trees in the area that h a
e S was established to developed new crops for the
state Hawaiian academia nut companies. Ernest van Tassel planted his

(17:42):
first commercial trees in n He ran into some trouble
in the beginning, but had it sorted out by ninety
four when he started processing nuts and yeah. These early
plantings resulted in cultivars that were developed for commercial plantation.
Growth again propagated by grafting They're reporting on successful grafting
in a nine seven edition of Science helped facilitate mass production.

(18:07):
In the following years, the h a e. S tested
a bunch of different macadamian nutclones in different locations throughout Hawaii.
A decade after that report, the h A e. S
announced the development of a tree that produced higher quality
nuts and larger quantities. It took about another decade before
the big hitter industries on the Hawaiian Islands, the so

(18:28):
called Big Five companies. It took them a bit to
notice the macadamia nut. The owners of Dole Pineapple Company
planted an orchard in nineteen six, going on to supply
the product for the mounta Iloa Mcadamia Nut Corporation. This
company's first commercial crop was processed in nineteen fifty six. Eventually,

(18:48):
see Brewer and Co. Ltd. Bought out the owners of
Dole's orchard. In nineteen seventy six, Castle and Cook debut
a new brand, Royal Hawaiian Ine, and this brand gets
a lot of the credit when it comes to bringing
the macadamia nut into the mainstream on the main land US. Later,
Hershey would buy Manta Loa in two thousand four, and

(19:10):
then another brand called Hawaiian Host bought them in UM.
Hawaiian Host is a confectionery that's been operating as such
since n and is apparently the world leader in chocolate
covered macadamia nuts according to them, So sure, UM, they
are located in Honolulu, which is cool. Yeah. For a
while the macadamia net was known as the Hawaiian nut

(19:34):
in the US anyway, that's how much we associated it
with Hawaii. The first purpose built processing center opened near
Brisbane in nineteen sixty four, and uh, skipping ahead to today,
geneticists are looking into um the much more diverse populations
of macadamia trees that grow natively in Australia, UM, hoping

(19:56):
to find properties in them that can help the cultivated
arrietals be more efficient and disease resistant. UM. It's a
little rough going because of the wild populations are currently
growing on private properties. UM so what with climate change
and cultural change. UM, these researchers are hoping to reach
out to those landowners and talk conservation. UM. And macadamia's

(20:19):
are being investigated for another reason. Those super strong shells
for biomemetics. But so biomemetics UM, if you haven't heard
of this concept, um okay uh. Generally followed law of
nature um is that living beings get the business of
living done as cheaply as possible in terms of energy

(20:41):
needed to do a thing right. Um you know, like
that thing might be something like protecting itself with a
hard shell. And often the ways that humans have developed
to to do similar things is really energetically expensive, like
read wasteful by comparison to these things in nature. So

(21:02):
in fields of biomemetics, researchers look to systems in nature
for inspiration for better engineering and like technological techniques. And
so this one team out of M I. T and
a few institutes in Germany used a bunch of really
cool imaging technology, including scanning electron micrographs, to study macadamia shells.
They found six distinct layers surrounding the seed, each made

(21:24):
up of these bundles of fibers that react just a
little differently under stress, which is what makes cracking the
shells so difficult. So cool, Yeah, coming to materials near you.
Maybe I don't know, Hopefully I haven't followed up with
them to see what they're doing with it. Maybe we should, Yeah,
maybe we will, Hey, absolutely, yeah, why not? Why not? Indeed,

(21:51):
we need to be a force to be reckoned with
in this industry, at this Macadaemia biomemetics industry specifically. Yes,
I agree completely. I'm very clumsy. I could benefit from this.
So it was Ramsey, a coworker of ours. The other day.
I said I had fallen and done something. Oh yeah,
I fell and I broke all this beer. Oh yeah,

(22:13):
well this was a year ago. I'm over it. But
he said, he paused, and he said, you know, I
was gonna hold back, but you're just clumsy. You're just clumsy.
And I was like, I know it, I know it.
It's true. You don't have to sugarcoat it for me
to sugarcoat the shell of the true it is it

(22:37):
is uh. Speaking of co workers, I just remembered that
one of the gifts that I in fact brought back
from Oah who was a jar of mcadamionets, because they
have them in all of these goofy flavors, and there
was one that was spam flavored. And I was like,
our coworker, Ben Bollin, he needs to have this because

(22:59):
it's us terrible enough that I think he'll consume it.
I believe you're absolutely correct. You're absolutely correct, and also
I loved that that exists. Yeah, that's about what we
have to say about macadamia nets. It is um. We
do have a little bit more for you, but first
we've got one more quick break for a word from
our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you,

(23:32):
and we're back with listener, hard shell to crack, hard
shell to cry, shaking my head at you. I don't
know why the record state gosh, okay, all right, Cecilia wrote,

(23:53):
I lived in France for the academic year sixty six,
when my father was there on sabbatical. I was fourteen
to fifteen. I went to a French lie say, which
was really hard. It was entirely in French except for
my English class, which was not immersion English, but just
regular learn English from a teacher who spoke mostly French.
I don't think she liked me, and I did not

(24:13):
get all top marks in the class, but it was
my best class. I have a story about that. It's
totally not food related. We all ate lunch at school,
and what they call the canteen we filed in by
groups at a set time I ate with seven other
kids in my class, one of whom knew some English
and was willing to translate for me. We ate sat
at our assigned table in the room had six to

(24:35):
eight tables, so held forty eight to sixty four students.
On Mondays, we were given eight clean cotton napkins. We
each had a plastic envelope with a letter on it.
I think mine was J. After we ate, we put
the napkin in the envelope and stacked them at the
end of the table where we would find them the
next day and the rest of the week. Of course,
we had a three course meal every day. Oh my gosh.

(24:56):
A starter or entree which was very simple. One of
the few remember with sardines. Another was radishes. There was
always bread, but no butter unless we had sardines or radishes.
That's probably why you remember. The main course was a
meat and veg course. Then dessert, which was again simple.
It might be a fruit, a sweet moose or pudding
or a petite sweete that was my favorite. There were

(25:18):
no choices. You ate it or you did it. I
don't remember many kids not eating their meals. Um Our
school meals didn't include salad. In those days, the French
only ate salad after the main course, and the salad
never contained any chunks, just lettuce. The word salad and
French can be translated either to the lettuce or salad,

(25:38):
and you toss it just before serving as your listener
previous listener who wrote in about this said, one day
my parents invited the family of one of the girls
in my grade to dinner. This family lived just down
the road from us. I think it was the parents
and one or two of the kids. They had a
large family, they weren't wealthy and probably didn't get invited
out to eat much, especially not to the home of
an American science tist. When it came to the salad course,

(26:02):
my mother handed the freshly tossed salad to the mother,
as is customed to start the serving with the female guest.
The ladies started to serve herself, but her daughter elbowed
her and said under her breath, poor fete. So her mother,
very embarrassed, stopped serving herself and instead toss the salad again,
then handed it back to my mother. This completely confused
my mother, and this is the only part of that

(26:22):
meal that I remember. I gathered from this that it
was customary to let the guests of honor toss the salad.
That way everyone knows it was freshly tossed. And why
the word tire are fatigue would be used for that,
I don't know. Maybe once the salad is tossed, it
is tired. My husband. My husband and I have a

(26:43):
small house in Normandy, France, so we now spend eight
to ten weeks a year in France. We actually don't
eat out much, but when we do, I notice that
the French don't normally eat salads after the meal like
they used to, or at least not in restaurants, and
they now have what they called salad compos which means
a salad with other things it. Of course there are
salad sirs are Caesar, but also many others. They are

(27:05):
served as a lunch meal normally, but are listed above
the main course. So maybe some people eat salads as
an entree like we do. The once I've ordered are
too big to be an entree. I had one recently
called salad Normand, which included three or four cheeses, turkey strips,
boiled eggs, pecans, and mayo, And that brings me to mayo.

(27:27):
I like maynon is, but my husband doesn't, so my
kids didn't grow up with it. My son hates it.
I mean he thinks it is actually evil. In n
we were going to spend a sabbatical in the Netherlands
and we bought a v W Jetta, which we parked
up in Luxembourg. We drove to Belgium for a first night.
We didn't know that it was the night of a
twenty four hour road race in that area. It took

(27:48):
a while to find a hotel that had a room
available that night. The street below our hotel room was noisy.
We were tired enough that we slept anyway. In the morning,
we packed up and went down to our brand new
dark blue car. Sitting on the top of the car
was a huge load of fret with mayo. Yeah, we
did the best week good to get the Mayo off
the top of the car, but it left a staying

(28:10):
there made on the car for years. My son was
very upset. He was eight. Oh formative Mayo memories, true,
that would be very upsetting. Yeah, also a waste of
freat right, it looks so hard and it looks very
like personally upset right now, I am oh gosh um, oh,

(28:32):
that that clears it up so much. I couldn't quite
figure out why, uh like, composed salads were such a
big differentiated category from salads in French. And so oh,
thank you, yes, thank you so much, gosh um, Taylor wrote,
I was listening to the show on cod and was
waiting for you to mention this fact, because it seems
right up your alley. To my shock, there was no

(28:54):
mention of the war between Iceland and the UK over cod.
All war about co okay okay. Not really a war,
but there were some militarized disputes and one person died.
It was an accident over the fishing rights in the
waters around Iceland. Because of the rise in popularity over
fish and chips, the waters around the UK had been

(29:17):
over fished of cod, forcing the fishermen to venture further
and further towards Iceland. This caused Icelandic fishermen to become
more and more upset and therefore war. The even more
impressive thing is that there was more than one cod war.
The first took place in nineteen fifty eight, the second
in nineteen seventy two, and the third in nineteen seventy five.

(29:39):
They ended with fishing treaties, where the UK was allowed
to catch one fifty thousand tons of fish and Iceland
increased its territorial waters to fifty miles around the island.
There is a stuff U missed in history class show
on the Cod Wars as well the Cod Wars. Oh gosh,
that's great. Yeah, definitely definitely go search stuff you missed

(30:01):
in history Cod Wars. I'm sure I want to know
more about that now, I do too, I too, Fish
and chips Man. Yeah, also cod Gosh, that was a
fun episode. That was a fun one. Thanks to both
of them for writing in. If you would like to
write to us, you can our email is hello at

(30:22):
savor pod dot com. We're also on social media. You
can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at savor pod.
We do hope to hear from you. Savor is production
of I Heart Radio and Stuff Media. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio, you can visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. Thanks as always to her superproducers Dylan Fagan

(30:42):
and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we
hope that lots more good things are coming your way,