The Cardamom Pod(cast)

This complex spice, both warming and cooling, brings zing to foods from baked goods and curries to caffeinated drinks and beyond. Anney and Lauren dig into the science and history of cardamom.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello, and welcome to Savor production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Annie and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we're talking
about card mum card mom. Is that how you pronounce it?
Card moum? Yeah? Oh yeah, you're right. I was pretty good.
An extra cardamom. Well, there's yeah, it's there's a cardamum,
there's there's. There's three distinct syllables in there. I think

(00:30):
I'm just kind of shortening it. Okay, okay, because I
as might be clear, I really know nothing about cardamon,
but many of you have written in about about it,
and specifically the t card mom te. Sure. Yeah, it
is a frequent ingredient in um in spiced teas. I

(00:52):
love cardamum um. I've often used it as a baking
spice um and I might order like kind of a
lot of Indian and Bangladeshi to livery foods, so um.
Like one of my favorite things is finding a whole
carnamon pod in my rice, and it just it just
makes me feel like somebody cares about me, Like they

(01:15):
were nice enough to put this whole cardamon pod in
my rice while they were cooking it, and it just
it shows that they love me. I get that. I
get that. There's sometimes you get delivery and you're like,
whoever made this dish? Really they put a lot of
effort and care into right, Yeah, this makes her feel
so so warm, Yes, cared for. Well, I guess we

(01:41):
should get you off question. Sure, Cardamum, what is it? Well,
cardamon is a bright flavored spice that tastes kind of
warm and cool at the same time. Combining this this
range of flavors from lemony to minty to floral to

(02:01):
spicy hot, with a little bit of sweetness offsetting all
of those flavors that can go kind of better. Um
sometimes called the Queen of Spices. I like your kind
of jellyfish motion you're making. Yeah, I'm not sure why
that was the motion. Um. I liked it though, thank you.

(02:22):
And I feel like recently we've talked about the King
of Spices, and we've talked about like KINGO. I like
how people have to give these royal designators to foods.
That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure.
I I saw multiple places, so I figured I would
report on it, but I didn't find any cool backstories

(02:42):
about why, Like a lot of the time that will
be like, like, well it's because of this legend. I
didn't read anything like that, but yeah. So cardamom plants
are this group of tropical plants within the ginger family
that's Zingiberrassia, which I love saying, yes. So. So they

(03:03):
grow rhizomes underground, off of which um some big leafy
stems spring up, and those stems will flower with these
pretty colorful clusters of flowers, and when pollinated, usually by bees,
they then produce a bunches of small fibrous pods containing
many seeds. Uh and not like many many, like several

(03:25):
too many ish like fIF fifteen to twenty Okay, I
like how okay, not many many, I'm many ish many
ish Yeah, okay, now we've got it. Uh. No, seeds
carry the most flavor and are like the operative part

(03:46):
of the plant used for cooking. They'll like ginger. The
whole plant contains some of the of the compounds that
give the seeds their intense flavors. Um. There are three
main genuses that wind up getting called cardamom Um. Litaria
cardamomum is green cardamom, sometimes called true cardamom, and there's
a couple of species within Amomum or Ammonum that are

(04:08):
called black cardamoms and um. Several species with an afromomum
are called African cardamoms. Green cardamom is the kind of
most likely to be found outside of the areas it's grown. Um.
The pods are like a little smaller than a kidney
bean or like a shelled almond ish size, maybe with
a green skin. Um. Uh, kind of kind of wrinkled,

(04:32):
shaped like a slightly deflated three sided football. Yeah. Yeah,
and the pods do contain yeah, like fifteen to twenty
small black seeds. A white cardamom is just green cardamom
that's been bleached for one reason or another, usually because
it's a slightly lower quality pod that came out kind
of splotchy rather than like a nice, even green uh.

(04:54):
This type of cardamom is used in sweet dishes and
drinks in North Africa, the Middle East, and South Asia,
plus in South and Southeast Asian massalas and curries, and
Northern European winter holiday cookies and sweet breads. Yes, I
like how you're pointing at me, as though I am
a child who is perhaps not paying the best attention.

(05:20):
I'm listening, I'm just trying to envision these this taste.
I feel like I've definitely had to have had it,
and I can't. I can't pinpoint it. Yeah, it's it's
just all right. It's a little bit hard to describe
because it is it's got this warming, like almost gingery

(05:41):
kind of heat, but then also this cooling kind of
mental like like bitterness at the same time, and and
then a little bit of like citrus and floral in there.
So uh, there's there is. There is a lot going
on it. Um. It sort of smells like, uh, I

(06:03):
mean to me, it smells like a delightful perfumes. My
favorite perfumes do contain cardamum um. And yeah, I don't know.
I'm not helping, No, you are helping. I think it.
I think it really does just have a lot going on.
So it's hard for me to pinpoint, but I feel
certain if I have it. When I have it and

(06:26):
I know what it is, I'll be like, oh, yeah
that I'll see if I have like a spare tub
of cardamum kicking around my house and the next time
that we do an exchange of goods, I'll just like
throw cardamom at you. A barter a barter system. That's
what Laura and I are on d and resulted in
this like I have some kick cats, you have some

(06:49):
kind of koala bear thing. It's a well known anyway. Okay, sorry,
thank you lovely listeners for sending us things goodness Back
to cardamom um uh so so yeah, so all of
that has been green cardamom. In contrast, black cardamom pods

(07:12):
are a little bit larger um like up to the
size of like a small walnut or so, and they'll
be red to brown to black in color, slightly larger,
darker seeds inside. And this is more likely to be
found in savory dishes and pickles in northern India and
through parts of China and Vietnam. I understand it's a
little spicier and smokier than the green varieties and African varieties,

(07:37):
and there are lots of them, by the way, um
grow in western Central Africa and are used in mostly
savory dishes um in cuisines around there as well. I
understand it's pretty similar to black cardamom, but like or like,
if you're going to try to substitute for it, that's
the closest that you're going to get. Um, but I
didn't see any really specific descriptions of what makes it different,

(08:00):
So get it, so if anyone knows, yes, oh yes,
that's actually one of my favorite things is when, like,
when you describe a taste. I love when people write
in very detailed descriptions of taste. So please put in. Uh.
These pods tend to be harvested by hand a couple
of times a year, just before they're ripe. Otherwise the

(08:22):
pods will crack open very much looking like the mouths
of of the of the demogorgon in Stranger Things. Um,
but don't worry, it just contains delicious seeds. But so yeah,
they don't. They don't want that to happen. So so yeah,
you pick them before they're ripe, and you will get
the best flavor from cardamoms when you buy them whole

(08:43):
and grind them yourself. Um, if you, if you choose
to grind them. But they can be used whole as well.
And yeah, this this whole lot of flavor going on
lends itself to all kinds of both sweet and savory dishes. Um,
they're good, yes, whole or ground as part of a
spice and in sauces or stews, or to give zing
to jams or syrups or glazes or salad dressings. Um

(09:06):
ground as part of a spice rub for proteins or
or vegetables. Ground and added to baked goods in tea
blends or coffee drinks, or mulled wine or ciders. Steeped
into creamy desserts and porridges. Or yeah, just a whole
pods steamed with rice to infuse some of that flavor
into their um folks, even to whole pods as a
breath freshener. Yeah, yeah, I saw that. Yeah, that that

(09:31):
is quite bracing, I will say if you done it. Yeah, yeah,
it's a lot. I mean it's not not fun, but
like I'm just like, oh, that is a flavor you
found one mm hmmm. Okay, Well, speaking of um, what
about the nutrition. Uh, You're mostly not consuming enough cardamom

(09:55):
for it to really impact you, but it does have, yes,
a huge flavor bang for its caloric buck and cardamum
has been used in traditional medicines and cultures that have
grown it for pretty much Ever, some research is being
done into its possible scientifically proven health benefits. Because a
bunch of the same compounds that give cardamom its flavors,

(10:17):
also like do stuff in our bodies um Some are antioxidants,
others anti inflammatory, ees um or muscle relaxers. Even preliminary
research indicates that cardamom derived supplements may help control things
like insulin function, which is good, and for the ways
that our bodies handle fats, which is not necessarily good

(10:39):
but like can be a lot of the research is
still taking place in animal studies, so we've got a
ways to go. And as always, before ingesting a medicinal
dose of anything, you should check with a health care
provider who is not us, because bodies are complicated and
more information is necessary. Savor slogan. I mixed it up

(11:06):
that time. That was a little bit of a you're
trying to throw a curve booth baboo. Yeah. Yeah, I'm
never trying to throw a curveball, y'all. That's and any
time I do, it's just it myself. I'm like, oh,
why did I do that accidental curveball? I feel like
I remember when you did that brain stuff video and

(11:28):
it was like Christen was in it and Ben was
in it, and you all had names of like heist names.
You could be accidental curveball. Yeah, that curved like you
can't even be a you can't even predict that a's
a curveballtle curveball. That that would be my job on

(11:49):
a heist team. Yeah, I would be that. I would
be the accidental curveball. Everyone would be like Lauren would
be like, sorry, yeah, you got like a banana peal
because you needed a snack from earlier and you don't
realize that it drops out of your pocket and it
trips up somebody's chasing you. Accidental curveball. Genius ideas. Love

(12:13):
it right right it into the to the cartoon series. Yeah,
absolutely will do um okay, but we do have some
numbers for you these days. Guatemala is the largest producer
of card mom around twenty five thousand tons. It's produced
primarily for export there, and Guatemala overtook the previous largest producer,

(12:34):
India in two thousand or potentially nineteen eighty or I'm
assuming maybe it kind of bounced back and forth. I
think that's what happened. Yeah, but Shure, yeah, yeah, I
saw those two floated around h Saudi Arabia consumes about
thirty six percent of the world's card mom exports, most
of which I understand goes into coffee. Um uh gawa.

(12:56):
I'm not sure if I'm saying that correctly. I did
look it up, um, yes, like a like like what
we might call a Turkish coffee here in the States, right. Um.
And as of and estimated seventy of that of the
card moment Saudi Arabia was sourced through Guatemala. One of
the reasons for this has been price at an Indian

(13:19):
cardamom auction house in kilogram was going for dollars and
fifty cents, while the price for the same amount in
Guatemala was going for six dollars and sixty nine cents. Yeah.
According to severb Green, card Mum is the world's third
most expensive spice by weight, Yeah, behind saffron and vanilla. Yes,

(13:40):
that is what I have seen in multiple places as well. Yes,
past episodes on both of those. Yes that too, that too.
I like the kind of look of panic. Yeah, that's
when you talk about those things. But we our talking
about guard Mom and it's time to get into the history.

(14:04):
But first it's time to get into a quick break
for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank
you sponsor, yes, thank you. So. Cardamum is believed to
be native to India and has been around and cultivated

(14:25):
since ancient times. Sanskrit text mentioned cardamum, and both the
Assyrians and Babylonians described the medicinal usages of this ingredient,
often for a wide variety of digestive issues, and as
a frend freshener, so they run into that for a
long time, possibly a perfume as well. Um trade of
cardamom goes way back to possibly all the way to

(14:48):
the third millennium BC, merchants transporting it along trade routes
um eventually into the Mediterranean and Asia, and like many spices,
cardamom was highly prized um If these spices were symbols
of luxury, wealth and uh often key elements at significant events.

(15:08):
The ancient Egyptians may have used it in embalming. The
ancient Greeks and Romans certainly were familiar with card moment,
and philosophers like ds Varieties and Hippocrates espoused the health
benefits of it. There was even a Greek verb derived
from cardamom that meant to become strong inventie. Alexander the

(15:30):
Great even listed card mom as a necessity for performing
his I'm assuming his soldiers as well, but it's unclear,
but definitely for performing his his duties on the job,
he needed guard them. Oh sure, yeah, I need to
make a list of what I need, dear buss. Why

(15:51):
don't have a steady supply of cardamon coming in? Yeah?
Mine are like coffee and like decent internet access. Uh huh,
and maybe like a cat, I think, yeah, yeah, that
sounds right, Yeah, it sounds right. I'm definitely the coffee.

(16:12):
I have a stuffed b that I really like. Yeah,
it's similar, it's a similar vibe. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
different than what Alexander the Great was going for, I
would imagine. So I haven't checked in with him ever. Ever,
that's correct, Yes, although I wouldn't say no to cardmon,

(16:33):
was what I was trying to get to. Oh, yes,
yes absolutely. Um Venice became a hugely important hub for trading,
including spices during medieval times. We've talked about that a
lot before. It was the largest and most critical importer
of cardamom for the West during this time. A Dutch
merchant described two types of cardamon from South India around

(16:56):
around this period, and a German herbologist and physicist just
cardamom as an essential oil in the hundreds amongst Westerners
who could afford it, cardamom was highly sought after. Yeah,
as we discussed in various episodes, and cinnamon is the
one that comes to mind for me. Arab merchants kept

(17:18):
these secrets. They had all these secrets of their spice trade,
and they kept that close to their heart to control
the price and the supply. So people didn't know where
it was coming from. Yeah. Yeah, they didn't even know
what kind of plant it was from, or like how
the plants worked, or whether or not they were guarded
by dragons somewhere. It was this whole intricate layer of

(17:38):
like of like mythology and just straight up like like nah,
I'm not telling you about that that was employed in
order to keep this very um valuable resource to themselves, right.
I mean if someone told me I had to go
face a dragon in a dark what was it like
a cavernous place, I feel like, all right, you just

(18:00):
bring it to me, Okay, whatever you want. Cool. Yeah,
I don't want to face a dragon, but I do
want the spice. Um. However, the Portuguese interfered with the
strategy when they mapped out their own sea route to
India's west coast and began exporting card mom to Europe themselves.
China was most likely involved in the trade of card

(18:22):
at this time too. Unfortunately, Laurena and I did have
trouble finding a lot of historical sources for for this. Um.
I did see one that said since like the nineteen hundreds,
China had been involved in this trade, but I didn't
see it anywhere else. So grain of salt back earlier
than that, in the like medieval times kind of era,

(18:45):
the spicier black cardamom was slightly more frequent export and
would remain popular in Europe until the trade of black
pepper really picked up. UM. Well, I don't have the
number in front of me, but I believe it's around
like this exteen possibly, Yes, and we've done an episode
on black pepper as well. Yes, yes, uh and yeah

(19:09):
they're written. Records are fairly lacking, but I feel like
it's safe to assume people were using cardamom not just medicinally,
but in rice dishes, drinks like teas and coffees, and
baked goods at this time. This medieval time period and
had been for a while. In India, people were probably
using it as a flavoring as far back as second

(19:30):
century BC, including tease. And this is where I stumbled
on a whole Massali high rabbit hole and the history
of that and that is a future episode. Oh oh absolutely, yeah, yes,
but cardamon being an ingredient often in massolichi, so they
they're probably using it pretty far back. Yeah, yeah, And

(19:52):
some research has shown that cardamom has antifungal and some
anti microbial effects in food products. Um, maybe a practical
reason why people have been blending it into dry teas
and spice mixtures for so long, other than just you know,
like it's tasty, right, all right, I'm wondering how many
times that sort of happenstance were you? Yeah, it dovetails.

(20:14):
I think they. I think it becomes such a classic
flavor because the food that they put it in doesn't
go bad, and they're like, oh cool, I'll eat that
instead of this food that has gone bad, right, and
then I put something different in that does not have
these properties, so convenient very According to some sources, the
vikings are the reason cardamon became such a popular spice

(20:36):
in Scandinavia. During the times of the Roman Empire, most
spices from India passed through Constantinople, which is now Istanbul. Uh.
This was also one of the final stops for the
Vikings before they made their journey to Europe, and they
developed a fondness for the spice card mom, so much
so that they brought it back to Scandinavia, where they

(20:57):
incorporated it primarily in baked goods. Again hard to verify,
but yeah, in a lot of places. Yeah, I saw
Vikings mentioned pretty much everywhere that was talking about the
history of cardamom. But I all, like, basically every source
also said we can't confirm this, right, So I was like, well, okay,

(21:22):
at least it's an oft repeated myth. If it's a myth, right,
certainly it got to Scandinavia somehow, it did, and it's
popular there. Yes, Yes, And as as many other of
these expensive spices became, it became known for these uh
fall and winter holiday kind of celebrations where you were
like like really going all out to be fancy. Yes. Oh,

(21:46):
speaking of airte century European recipe for what was probably
a highly expensive sauce called cinnamon sauce or Lord sauce
featured cardamom. Other European recipes called for it in iced
wines are breads. Around this same time, some British soldiers
working with the British East India Company wrote about South

(22:08):
Indian cardamom cultivation, but it wasn't until the nineteenth century
that European colonists really seemed to care about cultivating it.
British colonists established cardamom as a crop, possibly as a
secondary crop to coffee in India during this century. Yeah,
and this was the first time that cardamom was grown
on plantations. Like coffee, it doesn't really lend itself to

(22:31):
plantation conditions. Um. It wants like a tropical forest type
environment with plenty of rain and also plenty of dappled sunshine.
So I can see where Um, if you're already growing coffee,
it might be a good, yeah, a good secondary crop
because those those coffee shrubs or trees are going to
provide about that condition. So, speaking of colonial transport of cardamom,

(22:56):
in the eighteen nineties, German colonizers introduced some green cardamom
to Tanzania. German coffee grower Oscar may use clover planted
cardamom in Guatemala in the nineteen twenties or perhaps earlier.
The date varied a lot on that one too, and
production grew by quite a bit in that country after
World War Two. As the production there has steadily risen,

(23:18):
so have problems around labeling, price gouging, and fair treatment
and pay of cardamon farmers. Yeah. One of the primary
cardamom growing areas in Guatemala, con has also been an
area of deep political unrest, especially in the eighties and nineties,
but nearly half of the local population there is involved

(23:39):
in cardamom agriculture right and uh. Cardamon's popularity in parts
of Europe and North America has been growing in recent years.
Primary reasons cited is the growth in popularity of Asian
cuisines in those places right right um and in the
United States certainly, Um, the spread of what we call chai,

(24:02):
by which we mean like an Indian inspired spiced t
blend of some kind or another. The word chi really
just means tea in a lot of native languages, but yeah,
it definitely has contributed to this growth in the Carnavon market. Um.
And yes, yes, Massala chi whole different episode. It's going

(24:22):
to be difficult and delicious. I'm making a lot of
swimming related gestures today. And I'm not sure why we
were talking about swimming pools right before we got into
this episode, and maybe I'm just maybe I'm just like
on a tropical holiday in my mind. Oh I hope
so subsolutely. You can't go in personally. You can go

(24:45):
in your mind. Oh oh, I don't mean to bring
it down. No, you're right. You can go in your mind.
And that's a lovely thing. I'll take it. I'll take this.
Um well, I think that's what we have on Cardamom
for now. It is. We do have some listener mail

(25:07):
for you, though, we do, but first we have one
more quick break for a word from our sponsor, and
we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, And we're
back with the smooth snow. A lot going on in

(25:37):
porporated your gestures kind of yeah, I was like, are
we swimming again? Okay? I was just trying to take
you to your happy place or whatever it's been in
this episode. Yeah, thank you. Um. So we have more
moral mushroom emails there, which is great. Yes, Hannah wrote,

(26:01):
I was going to write to you last week in
order to show you one of the drawings my high
school best friend. It used to do of winged haggists
performing various activities nesting, flying, perching in trees, etcetera. But good,
I know. But unfortunately, despite tearing my desk apart, I
was unable to locate any examples. They must all be
back home in Michigan, which brings me to why I'm

(26:23):
writing today. I spent my entire childhood in northern Michigan,
attending the Mushroom Fest and Boyne City every year, and
I was so excited to hear you mentioned my home
area and to hear that it holds the moral record.
Of course, according to me, mushroom hunting with my family

(26:43):
was always a blast, even if we only found a
couple running after every slight bump in the leaf cover,
hoping to be the first to uncover a hidden treasure.
Made for an excellent day out. Moral season can be
crazy in areas where they grow, especially if you work
in restaurants as I did as a teenager, and you
can watch chef handing over fifty dollars a pound or
more to any forager who walks through the door. Everyone

(27:06):
wants to be able to get that seasonal mushroom dish
on the menu. Beware, though, if you're the one who
has to prep the little delicacies. Those hollow stems can
have all sorts hiding inside, and I have sliced more
than one slug in half. I have never been a
big mushroom lover, but Morel's were always an exception, possibly
partially out of local pride, but largely because they're hollow

(27:28):
stems and guild caps mean you never have to bite
through a thick chunk of scushy mushroom. Excellent use of
scushy um. They are the perfect place to start if
you are mushroom reluctant, especially salt ad with butter, garlic
and herbs. But lover of mushrooms are not what kid
doesn't love a good carnival, And while I didn't pay

(27:49):
much attention to the actual mushroom goings on, I have
great memories of the Boying City Festival. On a mushroom
related note, I believe it was Lauren who mentioned she
belongs to a parasitic mushroom face book group. It was
if you like the idea of fungusas horror, I must
recommend the book Mexican Gothic by Sylvia Marino Garcia. I

(28:09):
read it at the beginning of last fall and it
was the perfect Gothic story to send some shivers down
my spine and get me in the mood for Halloween season.
I won't give away anything about the mushrooms, but rest
assured it will be right up your alley. Well, that
makes me nervous right away, I didn't say. Melissa also
suggested this book, so I definitely want to check it out.

(28:32):
But I'm afraid that these mushrooms aren't going to be good. Oh.
I suspect you may be right about that. Annie. Oh,
thank you for the thank you for the recommendation. Um
we we definitely, as y'all have probably noticed, are fans
of horror and related genres around here, and Sylvia Marino

(28:54):
Garcia is a terrific writer. I love her work, so
I'm cool check adding it, adding it to my mental
list of stuff to download onto my phone and just
merge with my couch and read like a mushroom, Like
a mushroom. Oh, dear Karen wrote, I listened to your

(29:16):
moral Mushroom episode today and I can answer your questions yes,
you butchered me sick. It's pronounced with a long e.
And the Blessing of the jeeps. Both the mushroom Festival
and the Blessing happened on Mother's Day weekend each year
except last year when COVID messed everything up. The area
around Mesik has lots of trails and seasonal roads that
some people like to ride their jeeps and other swamp

(29:37):
buggies on. The Blessing hopes for long rides with no breakdowns.
That weekend, the very small town is crammed with jeeps
and off road vehicles in addition to the festival goers.
One interesting fact I didn't hear in the podcast. When
you go mushroom hunting, you should use a mesh bag
so the spores can fall from the mushrooms onto the
ground to recede the mushrooms. There are much fewer mushrooms

(30:00):
in the area then they're used to be due to
people using paper and plastic bags that don't let the
spores out. Good tip, good tip, and this probably explains
why our mushroom forage. Your friend was using a basket
to like a like a weaker basket to collect all
of his mushroom wears. I love that we've got a
mushroom forage or friend and I this really does delight

(30:23):
me how many people have written in about this small
town and this festival and pride and these good experiences.
I really do adore it. It's so wonderful. Yes, yes, oh,
thank you. Uh, firsthand firsthand experience. I mean, you know,
like we can do all of the reading in the world,
but but hearing about things firsthand from people who have
experienced them is so cool every single time. It is,

(30:46):
it absolutely is. Thanks so much to both of them
for writing. If you would like to write to us
that you can our email as Hello at savorpod dot com.
We are also on social media. You can find us
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we do hope to hear from you. Savor is production
of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio,
you can visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

(31:08):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks as
always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard.
Thanks to you for listening, and we hope that lots
more good things are coming your way.