December 11, 2019 • 36 mins
This aromatic leaf has been a symbol of victory and compared to dryer sheets. Anney and Lauren explore the ancient (and modern) myths surrounding bay leaves.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Although I'm welcome to savor protection of I heart radio
and stuff media. I'm Annies and I'm Lauren vogel Baum.
And today we're talking about bay leaves. Yep, yep, we are. Yes.
It became of interest to me recently when I realized
I had three different packages of them in my fridge
in different areas. Okay, I don't even know if they're
supposed to be refrigerated. I'm not sure where they're in there. Uh,
(00:31):
they when sealed in the freezer, they will last longer
like fresh or dried dried okay, I mean in the fridge,
like it can't hurt. Okay. I was intrigued by the
whole thing, And the more I get to thinking about,
the more intrigued I was. Because here's this kind of
leaf thing that we put in our food. You don't eat. Yeah,
(00:52):
you're supposed to take it out before you eat the
food that's in, right, which I usually don't do. But
I'm also aware that there's a leaf to be a boy. Sure,
sure you're not unsuspecting, right exactly? Um. And when I
was little, one of my favorite things to eat with spaghetti,
which to this day, as I mentioned on the show,
is one of my weirdest food things. I eat the
noodles and saw separate. But um. I also like to
(01:15):
help my mom make it. And I had a whole
song spaghetti is ready when it six in the wall,
la My favorite part of it was the time to
mix all the ingredients is together. After you like brown
the onions and the garlic and the meat, and you
add in all the like stuff all stuff. Yeah, and
I felt like I was making a potion. And the
(01:36):
weirdest and coolest part of the potion was the bailey,
which I added at the end, just a whole leaf. Yeah,
you're just like, whoop in there? Uh yeah. I did
it with much flourished, like I was expecting it to go. Yeah,
And I felt like I was in Snap's potions class,
but with a much better teacher. And you can fight
me over that if you want. Then it's a terrible teacher, right,
(01:57):
thank you. He makes fun of her bonds tea, Thank you, Lauren.
And it's upsetting most people don't agree with me on
this point. Oh man, I'm very happy I can we
we could have. We're like losing listeners. I feel them,
I feel them going away, but like we could have
if this were a podcast about Harry Potter, we wouldn't
have to have an entire conversation about how Snape is
(02:20):
not meant to be a nice character. Right, Oh gosh,
I would be there for it. I mean, wouldn't be
like just because Alan Rickman is sexy. I'm not going
to argue with that part. Yeah, sure, great boys, interesting
character anyway, Okay before we make everyone furious, um, yeah,
(02:40):
and then yeah, remember him to take it out at
the end, this leaf. Um, I just hadn't. There's nothing
like that, so it felt very potion e to me
when I was a kid. Nothing else like that that
I had encountered. Sure, right, because usually when you add
stuff to a food you eat, you eat it exactly. Yeah,
And it doesn't. It's just stays that hard texture. Yeah. Yeah,
(03:03):
Going off of that kind of Apparently, several decades back,
a wife made some spaghetti sauce forgot to take out
the Bai leaf. Her husband choked on it. Wife calls
nimal one husband survives. Eventually they get divorced, probably unrelated.
Uh And okay, I'm wondering if this is apocryphal or not,
because I found a note that said that they were
(03:24):
living in the time in a town called Laurel, Maryland,
And I'm like, that's a large coincidence for a person
ship choking on a bay leaf for reasons that we're
going to go into in just a second. If if
it is a coincidence, great job, universe. If if it's
if it's not an it's apocryphal, then that's a pretty
funny note to add to a story like that. So
(03:45):
good job either way. Yes, good job all around. But
I suppose this brings us to our question bay leaves.
What are they? Well? Bay leaves can refer to the
eaves of a number of species within the Laurel family.
There you go, yeah, But most often what we're talking
(04:06):
about in Europe and the America's um are the leaves
of a flowering evergreen, small tree, large shrub um kind
of thing, botanical name Laurus nobilis um. They can actually
grow like sixty ft tall it's eighteen meters or so,
but are kept under eight feet in gardens about two
and a half meters anyway. They do grow flowers and berries,
but more to our purposes, they have leaves that are
(04:28):
these thick and leathery pointed ovals at this dark glossy
green about a two to four inches long and maybe
an inch wide. That's about five times by about two
and a half centimeters. And these leaves are harvested for
use as an herb because they contain just a whole
bunch of compounds that have flavors. Savor lavors, yes, about
fifty um you know, give or take depending on your
(04:49):
species at hand. Um, all kinds of stuff. Yeah, like
floral type compounds. Uh, things that seem fruity to humans,
like sweet apples or olive oil, bright citrus, cooling menthal
medic snall herbs, hetty woods, and spicy cloves or cinnamon
or pepper. Bay is a classic ingredient in perfumes and
other cosmetics, particularly masculine sense like bay rum. Oh sure,
(05:13):
I always think masculine when wow, masculine. I don't know,
they're they're kind of like like harsh rather than soft,
which I guess is like the dude lee category of sense. Anyway,
that's a separate podcast as well. Um. But yeah, when
bay leaves are fresh, um, the result of all of
(05:36):
these compounds together, um is a pretty assertive flavor that
can add this this really punchy like floral or bey spicy,
bitter sort of vibe to roasted dishes, soups, mayrionnades, curries
um sort of like a like a complex mint, ranging
into like cough drop territory. You don't want to add
like a lot, or if you do, you're going for
(05:58):
a particular thing, very particular. Yes. Um. When they're dried though, um,
the result is this mellower kind of like earthy spicy
flavor that can add some background up to both savory
and sweet dishes, think like stews and soups syrups for
for cocktails. It features in many recipes for stuff like
a gravy adobou osaka, and like sauces or braises for
(06:22):
roasted meats. Um and either way um. Bay leaves are
best in recipes that you cook sort of low and slow,
like a long long cooking times help transform those sharp
medicinal flavors into these softer herbal flavors, which are generally
what you're looking for unless you're drinking and tomorrow yes sure.
There are two primary varieties of things labeled bay leaves
(06:46):
that are marketed in the United States. Uh Turkish or
Mediterranean bay leaves, which are the aforementioned Laura's nobilis and
California bay leaves, which are yeah, different genus and species
entirely still within the family. Watch out for the difference,
but has the California type are much sharper tasting than
the Mediterranean type. Yeah, don't want to mix those up.
(07:06):
And yeah, you you cook with them by either adding
well ground dried leaves to us stews or the like,
or by adding whole fresh or dried leaves to whatever
you're making. Um. The ground stuff is okay to eat,
but the whole leaves, yeah, need to be taken out
because we can't digest the fiber's tissue of bay leaves
(07:28):
and their their stembits are are pretty pointy. Um. So
it's a stick. Don't swallow sticks. Um, and if you
ate one hole, it could it could scratch up your
throat or intestines. Um. There are, despite the Internet talk
about all of this, like very very very few actual
recorded instances of this kind of thing happening. Um, but
(07:51):
you know, just be careful you have a good time
with sticks. Yeah, they wouldn't need a cinnamon stick hole. Gosh,
don't do that, No, don't do that. Um. But yeah, Um,
one of the things that I was reading mentioned that
bay trees are considered deer resistant because that sharp flavor
(08:17):
and those sharp corners give pause to even giant heck
and herbivores um. Like, yeah, it's it's one of those things,
Like Okay, these flavor compounds and that toughness evolved as
a way to keep bay trees thriving um and sometimes
arid climates a UM and and B to keep them
free from pests. But as with so many things, humans
(08:38):
decided that we like that noise uh, and that we're
we're willing to face the danger of a whole leaf
slipping by and choking us. I gotta live on the edge.
We're pretty metal, It's true. Lauras nobilis most likely originated
from the Celtic word for green lore and the Latin
word for noble nobiles. I've read that the laura's part
(09:00):
might also be from a from a common pre Indo
European route that gave us the Greek word daphne. Like
it seems like there has been some letter D to
letter L dialect or other shenanigans that have gone on
at some point in history. I tried to track down
more specific information about this, but this is apparently something
the Grammarians have opinions about. Um so, yeah, but but
(09:25):
like you can you can see it in other word
pairs like I'm odor an olfactory right or um or
in Ulysses and Odysseus. Interesting. Yeah so ho etymology, unsure status,
unsure mysteries, histories, yes, yeah, but this brings us to
(09:46):
a non mystery, the nutrition whole. No, this was a
mystery too, okay, um so okay, Like like macro nutrition wise,
you're not eating enough Bai leaf or an actual bai leaf,
so you're not really getting any calories from it, probably
like maybe a tiny bit of some kind of sugar. Uh,
maybe some oils of some sort. But yeah, pretty nutritionally
(10:08):
void macro wise, but micro wise, there is a lot
of myth and research out there. Um Bay leaves and
their extracts are used and have been used for everything
from easing gas to aiding digestion and inducing sleepiness when
taken internally, to alleviating dan driff and boils and joint
and muscle pain when applied externally, and are being investigated
(10:31):
for things like preventing cancer and bacterial infections and treating
and preventing type two diabetes and cardiovascular diseases. Of these though,
um like okay like. Preliminary research has indicated that taking
tablets of ground bay leaf can decrease some symptoms that
are known risk factors for diabetes and for cardiovascular disease. Um,
(10:55):
but human bodies are complicated. More research is needed. Oh. Also,
just enough research has been done to show that large
doses of bay leaves can make other drugs like narcotics
or sedatives act all wonky. Huh, So consult a doctor
if you're curious about using bay leaf or anything else,
(11:16):
uh in a medicinal dose. Again, just eating one in
your pasta is not going to You're gonna be fine. No, no,
No danger of drug interactions, right yeah, danger of potential
cut on cheek maybe possibly, but yeah yeah um oh
and yeah, don't bother burning bay leaves unless you really
(11:38):
like the smell. There's no particular evidence that burning bay
leaves has any particular effect on the human body. Are
that inhaling burning bay leaves? Right? Not just the physical act?
I mean it might make you feel a little better. Show. Yeah,
burning stuff is fun. It can be. Don't take my
advice on anything, model yep uh And yeah, yeah, to
(12:03):
keep your baby leaves uh fresh air keeping in the
freezer sealed bag. M. I don't know about the fridge. Yeah,
I don't even know where I got that idea. I
don't think my mom did that. To investigate. Yeah, you're
on You're on your own, doing my own thing. Yeah,
I'm not sure why something. It must say something about
(12:24):
my personality. There must have been a reason in there somewhere,
especially bags and different areas. It sounds like she Shenanigans
have drunk handy to be honest. But I'll think about
that later. But what about some numbers? Some numbers, Okay,
world trade of dried bay leaves is somewhere around two
(12:46):
thousand tons, and Turkey makes up about two thirds of that.
Western Europe imports the most, at an estimated eight hundred tons.
McCormick and co. The Spice Company, a lot of US
are probably familiar with list Bay laurel leaves as one
of their top twenty five products, and to this day
they continue to research. Huh yeah, okay, yes, mostly like
(13:08):
recipe research still. Um and yeah, you can use it
in all kinds of things. Um, sauces soups, does mayonnaise
mashed potatoes, syrups for cocktails, infusion and chocolate pudding, or
warm milk to be used in things like creme brulet um.
A place in Baltimore called Woodbury Kitchen makes a seasonal
ice cream with bay leaf. Varieties of bay leaves are
(13:31):
pretty popular in Italian, French, Indian and Greek cuisines. I
use them, oh yeah, when I make Chipotle's coffeecat cilanchio
lime rice. And apparently some folks find that leaf in
their Chipotle rice that they get from the actual restaurant. Um,
and they think some random leaf from outside ended up
in there. So they're like, how did a tree get
(13:52):
into here? Yeah? What is groot doing in your kitchen? Instagram? Instagram? Yeah,
and they like tweet it Chipotle and s and b
all that's actually an ingredious supposed to be and they're
sorry it ended up in your eyes. It's gonna be
okay um. And also apparently liquorice packages in Italy and
Turkey include laurel leaves, and at one time in Scandinavia
(14:15):
a majority of laurel leaves used in households ended up
being recycled for liquorice packaging. Huh. I would love to
know more about that. Listeners have ye sight yeah strange okay, sure,
yeah yeah. And and Laurel leaves being one of the
pseudonyms or yeah, you know what I mean, other names
(14:36):
very much confusedly for a good portion of the early
part of this research. Wait a minute, is this the
same thing? It is the same thing? Yes, yes, And
speaking of we had we have a lot of history
around that. We do. Gosh, it's great, But first we've
got a quick break forward from our sponsor and we're back.
(15:02):
Thank you sponsors, Yank. And the history for this one
is a bit sparse and a little confusing because a
lot of things have gone by the name bai leaves
or Laurel throughout time. But here's what we know, or
what we think we know, or what historians think they know.
That I am trusting that they know Bailey was most
(15:23):
likely originated and what is now Turkey. Traders from that
region introduced bai leaves to the Mediterranean, and from there
it's spread to regions with similar climates. Now, I couldn't
find any historical reason for somebody being like this leaf,
that's us put it in something. But we're very creative,
innovative bunch we are. Yeah, it smells good. It smells good,
(15:47):
maybe it'll taste good. Let's try it. Yeah. The word
in Greek for the tree itself, the laurel tree, was
Daphne or Daphne. Going back to what you were talking about,
potentially etymology, world wise stuff. Yeah. According to Greek mythology,
Daphne was a nymph who was attempting to evade the
attention of the god of the sun and poets and writers,
(16:08):
Apollo um. In some versions of the story, he had
been struck with one of Cupid's arrows, and Gaya stepped in.
Are possibly her father, Daphne's father, the river god stepped
in and turned Daphne into a laurel tree. Uh yeah, yeah,
suitor evaded your your tree? Now, Okay, why did they
(16:30):
turn Apolo into a tree? Just got son? All right? Uh?
In response, Apollo decreed that the tree was sacred, and
he began wearing a laurel wreath and said, although you
cannot be my wife, you shall at least be my tree.
I shall always wear you on my hair, on my quiver.
Oh laurel, all right, that sounds this, this is all creepy,
(16:53):
so so like she didn't actually evade him at all,
but she has to like hang out like her leaves
have to hang out on his head all the time.
And again she just gets to be a tree. I mean,
I don't know. I might like being a tree, get
to be warm, sun photosynthesizing might feel great. It's true,
You're right, I just feel like I like moving places
(17:14):
you do. I'm a I'm a mover and a shaker. Yes.
Because of this story, baileaves were used in ceremonies by
Greek priestesses in Delphi. Oracles might have chewed the leaves
or inhaled the smoke of burning bay leaves. A bay
leaf under the pillow was thought to grant prophetic dreams.
(17:36):
Some historians, um think that we may be misinterpreting historical
text around all of that, though yes, um, it was
also of course thought to be an aphrodisiac a so
let us one. Yeah, the only thing we've ever stumbled upon. Yeah,
aphrodisiacs twenty billion, which actually I'm because I'm such a nerd.
(18:00):
I read a book this weekend on the history of jokes,
and um, they brought up the lettuce thing, and yes,
and apparently during a certain period in time, lettuce chokes around.
How they weren't they were going to slow you down
like a whole thing. Yes, And I was like, that's great,
my two worlds coming together, jokes and hot food history.
(18:25):
That's amazing. It was um. The association of Bailey's with
honor meant that Bailey's were highly regarded. Victorious Greek and
Roman athletes and soldiers were sometimes crowned with a wreath
of sweet bay leaves. A laurel wreath indicated military rank,
and this is where we get terms like baccalaureot meaning
(18:46):
laurel berries and laureate bay Laurel rees were given to
successful poets at ancient Greeks Pythian Games, held in Apaula's honor.
Poet laureate Yes, and Greek students were expected to be
too debtic added to their studies to marry. Bachelor's also
from the same roots as baccalaureate. So cool. Also sayings
(19:08):
like resting on one's laurels. Sure yeah yeah. Also my
name there you go, laurel laurels. Oh no, the laurel
yawnie thing came rushing back to my brain. I have
no idea. What you're talking about is that that thing
where some people it was a clip of sound and
some people heard Laurel and some people heard Yawnie. Oh right,
(19:30):
I heard Laurel. I never listened to it. You shouldn't.
It could be some kind of weird ring thing. You
never know. Okay, done seven years from now, I'll regret
having listen to it. Some believe that Bailey is protected
from witchcraft, and the Caesar's thought it prevented conspiracies and accidents.
(19:52):
I don't think that worked out that well for lots
of them, but doesn't seem to have. I could be wrong,
abe it worked out for some of them. Maybe there
was competing Okay, like it. Yeah. The ancient Greeks believe
that Baileys cast out spirits, and somebody even put a
leaf in their mouth in the morning to cast any
(20:12):
bad spirits out. By some accounts, these beliefs attached to
bay leaves lasted in England until the sixteenth or seventeenth centuries,
particularly the anti which anti deevil aspect of them. Um.
Some Europeans believed that at decaying bay tree portended bad omens. Okay, sure, yes,
(20:32):
Emperor Tiberius who was terrified of lightning and thunder, wore
Laurel wreaths for protection during storms. When I read that,
I thought, certainly not. But there is a lot of
a lot of evidence for it. A lot of writing
at the time suggested that was true. Laurel was believed
to ward off any potential harm from lightning and thunder,
and the idea came from the widely held belief that
(20:55):
laurel trees were never struck by lightning because they were
inhabited by a fire demon and thus full of fire
and thus lightning. Oh, this was something our old pal
plenty abscribed to, and he warned against burning Laurel on
altars or in ceremonies quote for the ap propitiation of divinities. Huh,
(21:18):
don't do it. Don't do it, nah, or those other
people maybe did it. But that's true. You know, I
don't know solid I don't know solid scientific. Yeah. Shakespeare's
Richard the second mentioned bay trees to thought. The king
is dead, we will not stay. The bay trees in
(21:39):
our country are all withered and meteors fright, the fix
stars of heaven, the pale faced moon looks bloody on
the earth, and lean looked prophets whispered fearful change those
decaying bay trees. Yes, yeah, it's a reference to the
superstition that a laurel tree that, by custom Roman Emperor's
planted would start to wither right before their death. Oh right,
(22:02):
I know, Okay, how scary that would be if you
really believe that, and you're what went on the morning
won't get the madree. Meanwhile, it's just like an insect
or a fungus or something like that, or fate. It
could be any of that stuff both, it could be.
That's right. Throughout history, Yes, baileaves have been used medicinally
(22:26):
and as an insect repellent, everything from keeping moss out
of clothes like early moth falls and so away from
drains and insects out of flowers bai leaves and boiling water.
They were believed to serve as an antiseptic um. Some
even believed they induced abortions. From Nicholas Culpepper's seventeenth century
(22:46):
the complete herbal bai leaves were quote effectual against the
poisons of all venomous creatures and the sting of wasps
and bees. That's inaccurate. Some of those other things are
as solid possibly, but this one is not. This is
a solid nah. I mean it might. I don't know.
There's like some soothing stuff in there, like like mental
and eucalyptol and stuff like that, a little bit soothing,
(23:08):
but okay, I'll give it a solid possibly. I like
the begrudging manner in which you did it, okay. Culpepper
actually had a lot of interesting things to say about
the bay leaf quote that it is a tree of
the sun, and under the celestial sun, leo, and resisteth
witchcraft very potently, as also all the evils Old Saturn
(23:30):
can do to the body of man, and they are
not off you, for it is the speech of one
and I am mistaken. If it were not masoldous, that
neither witch nor devil, thunder noor lightning will hurt a
man in the place where a bay tree is well, dang, well,
dang exactly better plants and bay trees we should right
(23:52):
here in the studio. I was about to say, they're
pretty big, as you said, you can you can prune them,
you can keep them small. And we wouldn't tell anybody.
Somebody would just come in one day and we have
an intense grow light bay tree situations, and we have
police tape around it. Do not touch no other note.
I like it sounds that's our speed right there. Everyone
(24:15):
would know immediately, oh that was Dannie Lauren. There would
be like, Annie Lauren, how are you up to now?
A source from the eighteen hundreds described at the practice
in France Burgundy, in particular of using bay leaves at weddings.
Bay was decorated with ribbons, and then the best man,
with the help of six assistants, lifted it up to
the highest chimney of the newly wedded home. I couldn't
(24:36):
figure out if that was like a seven had to
be seven number or anything, but anyway, um, then they'd
take a bottle of brandy and break it over the
bay leaf. I'm assuming it was a wreath to protect
the house from lightning, so very early lightning rod and
they'd sing a song which I is in French, and
I'm going to attempt so apologies to myself to everyone else,
(24:59):
but I think we can get through this. Yeah, no,
I have yes, totally, thank you do it yet? Plante
l Larier Le bon Vine novels, Madrier Manage too tros
toothros Tooth Trills, A tour bouvan chanton, iron lomovoi, cevoi, cervois, roget, grantie,
(25:25):
pun larier, rivati rosham lav lav lave. Yeah. Yeah, I
don't speak French at all, so that sounded just fine
to me. Basically, it's everything is good for drinking and singing.
Ya go live. Apparently, the belief that Bailey has provided
(25:49):
protection from lightning um was so strong that people would
walk around during thunderstorms with branches of their leaves over
their heads. This is one of my favorite facts, hopefully
facts that light That's great that you're just walking around like,
hope no lightning strikes me. Here's some branch. Here's my
anti lightning branch. And I like to imagine you don't
(26:10):
have an umbrella. Yeah, I see. I'm hoping contrariwise that
the branch was big enough and thick enough then an umbrella, UM,
that would be Yeah, that would be ideal. That would
be or like maybe you have an umbrella and it
hangs down from there. There's a lot of options are
(26:33):
around this time, there was a belief in England that
by placing five bay leaves on your pillow, the four
corners in the middle on Falentine's Day e, women could
get visions of their future husband's. In some versions, they
were supposed to put on an inside out clean The
women were an inside out clean night dress and recite
good to Valentine, be kind to me, and dreams let
(26:55):
me my true love. See. I guess it works as
good as anything. Sure I've said before. I used to
do the apple thing. You carve the all the skin
off the apple and then you let it sit outside
for a little bit. Whatever the letter, that's the name,
that what it's going to start with your future husband. Well,
(27:17):
very scientific, I'm sure. Bay was a part of some
funeral traditions in Western Europe and the U S as well,
either laid out across a coffin or sprinkled beforehand. The
laurel wreath featured heavily in the design of the Olympics
and Rio. And this brings us to some conspiracy. Conspiracy
Oh my gosh, yes, okay. In seen, Kelly Convoy posted
(27:42):
an article titled the Vast bay Leaf Conspiracy over at
the All, arguing that bay leaves don't do a damn thing.
Uh quote, maybe you've had this experience. You stow a
bay leaf into a broth and it doesn't do anything.
Then you throw the rest of the bay leaves you
brought into the off too, because you only bought them
for this item. And you'll be damned if you don't
(28:04):
taste a bay leaf and they don't do anything either.
What could be the cause of this? I'll tell you.
Bay leaves are bullet What does a baileif taste like nothing?
What does a bailey smell like nothing? What does a
baileyf look like a leaf? How does the bailey behave?
It behaves as a leaf wood? If you took a
(28:24):
leaf from the tree outside of your apartment building and
put it into your soup. She interviewed a bunch of chefs,
most of whom argued that baileaves were not in fact,
and some rebuttal pieces were published, as well as pieces
in support of her um. Anthony Bourdaine even got drawn in.
He said, count me in the yes team. I do
(28:46):
use baileys, and yes they are important, particularly for cream
sauces and poaching liquid court bouleon for fish. I can
understand how some would feel they get lost in more
forceful dishes like peefs do, but I think they add
something color me old cool. There's so many responses to it. Yeah. Yeah,
it's kind of the first thing that pops up when
you start googling. Just yeah, bay whatever whatever. Yeah, it's
(29:10):
like auto fills conspiracy. It's I think it's very funny
and probably um an indication of the less than fresh
dried spices, because I mean, of course he has and
dried spices, not fresh. But but if they've been sitting
for a long time, yeah, and we're not perhaps packaged properly,
(29:31):
or if you know they've been sitting in your house
in an u previously opened container, they do degrade like
the flavors do dissipate over time because they're volatile chemicals
and that's what they do. Um. So I'm like, I'm like,
just get maybe should buy better Bay leaves. Yeah, And
there's a lot of confusion around. As you said earlier,
(29:52):
the California one is stronger and you can get that
one fresh, which a lot of people think means it
will be better, but actually it's quite different. You should
not substitute Turkish for a California vice versa. UM. In general, yes,
many many specific recipes will call for a specific like
geographical location type. Perhaps I think Indonesian is one, Indian
(30:16):
is another, UM. But yeah, yeah, all of these different ones.
And if you're don't, don't necessarily when in doubt go
with the Turkish or Mediterranean kind. Yeah. I think those
are the best substitute all around for stuff. But there
are distinctly different flavor compounds um that are going to
add different notes to all of these different things. So yeah, yeah,
(30:37):
And as part of all of this this conspiracy, there
were a lot of tests that were done by uh
everyone ranging from like Anthony Borden into home home cooks.
And the biggest thing they say is if you don't
believe bailiefs, do something. Put it in boiling water. One
in boiling water and the other not, and you'll taste
the flavor in the water that you boil with baileiaf
(30:59):
and some but he did a three part taste test
of old dried leaves, fresh dried leaves, UM, and like
fresh leaves, and she said that definitely the fresh dried
baileys were the best, and that it was she she
likened them to laundry sheets, whereas she couldn't, like you
(31:20):
can't necessarily pinpoint what they're adding, but they're adding something Yeah,
they're making couplex layers. They're not the star. They're there
to support. Yeah, well there you go. Yeah, I like
bai leaves. Oh I love a baileaf. I think you
smell great. They could have been lots of stuff. I
still do that posh ingredient thing. You shouldn't try it
(31:42):
anyone who hasn't done it. It's quite fun, I believe you,
the simple things sometimes. Yeah, it's so surprisingly fun research episode. Yeah,
I love this kind of stuff. Oh, it's so fun.
But yeah, we've got this is This is about all
that we have to say about Bai Leaves. We do
have a little bit more for you, but first we've
(32:02):
got one more quick break for what from our sponsor,
and we're back. Thank you sponsoring, Yes, thank you, and
we're back with list sir, like a leaf down, I
(32:27):
love it, Aaron wrote, I had no idea this was
a more widespread thing until I listened to your cinnamon
rolls episode this morning. Growing up in Oklahoma in the seventies,
back when school lunches were cooked on site once a month,
our school lunch was something called bean chowder, and it
was always served with an amazing cinnamon roll. I hated
the bean chowder. I can't understand why anyone voluntarily ate it,
(32:51):
but I always had hot lunch that day just so
I could get cinnamon roll Looking back, I suppose bean
chowder could be considered a form of chili, but really
it's not being chowder. Gosh, I've never heard of that.
Something to google, okay. Teresa wrote, first of all, thank
you so much for making Savor Your fun banter and
(33:13):
food puns are a joy, and I was particularly delighted
that you did a podcast on cinnamon rolls. I lived
in Nebraska for a little while, and I can confirm
that cinnamon rolls and chili is certainly a thing there.
It's quite delicious, and I think it makes sense because
many people include cinnamon or chocolate as a secret ingredient
in chili. I've been on a quest over the past
five years to find the best cinnamon role in America.
(33:36):
I've tried cinnamon rolls in Nebraska, Missouri, Washington State, Oregon, California,
and Colorado. There's a place in Colorado Springs that has
cinnamon rolls twelve inches in diameter. Denver Biscuit Company also
has cinnamon rolls that are five inches tall and are
a favorite post run meal. But my favorite cinnamon role
is for sure found at Tartine, the famous San Francisco
(33:59):
Bay gree The texture is so incredibly flaky and beautiracious,
which means like butter and tender. I normally factor in
the quality of the frosting in my cinnamon role evaluation,
and this role does not have any frosting, but instead
an orange glaze, which adds the perfect note of bitterness
to contrast the sweetness. It is so good and I
make a point to get one every time I'm in
(34:21):
San Francisco. Finally, sorry so long. I have lots of
thoughts and feelings about cinnamon rolls. One of my favorite
things to do with cinnamon rolls is make cinnam moffles,
which is where I put the popcan of cinnamon rolls
in a waffle baker. The resulting cinnamon rolls are a
mixture of crunchy and soft and are wonderfully easy. Oh
my heck, that sounds so good, really really really Oh no,
(34:45):
oh geez okay, all right, Well, the next time I
encounter a waffle maker, I have one. Oh no, okay,
I can make this happen. Geez al right, Well, I
guess if we have to Heck, I've never actually been
to Tartine, but I've been meaning to go. I haven't
(35:06):
been in San Francisco in a long time. I went
to Tartine last time I was there, but I foolishly
did not get the cinnamon roll, and usually there's quite
a wait to get into Tartine. Sure, yeah, so I
put in my time, I didn't even get this. Well,
whatever I had that was delicious, I believe you. Yeah,
that was. I was a very That trip was very
planned out, so a lot of it's blur, a very delicious, delicious,
(35:29):
fun blur. But you you are a human who can
squeeze a lot of things in. Yeah. Yeah, it's one
of those times where I think my travel companions might
have murdered me at one. Oh you seem like you're
still fine in here. Yeah. I doubt they would ever
go to San Francisco with me again. But that's it.
(35:51):
That's fine. Some people can't handle your tenacity. Yeah, thank
you will say that. That's what it is. Thanks to
both of those listeners for writing in. Yes, you would
like to write to us, you can. Our email is
Hello at savor pod dot com. We're also on social media.
You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at
(36:11):
savor pod and we do hope to hear from you.
Savor is production of I Heart Radio and Stuff Media.
For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, you can visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows, shows, shows, shoons. Thanks as
always to our superproducers Dylan Bagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks
to you for listening, and we hope that lots more
(36:31):
good things are coming your way.
Although I'm welcome to savor protection of I heart radio
and stuff media. I'm Annies and I'm Lauren vogel Baum.
And today we're talking about bay leaves. Yep, yep, we are. Yes.
It became of interest to me recently when I realized
I had three different packages of them in my fridge
in different areas. Okay, I don't even know if they're
supposed to be refrigerated. I'm not sure where they're in there. Uh,
(00:31):
they when sealed in the freezer, they will last longer
like fresh or dried dried okay, I mean in the fridge,
like it can't hurt. Okay. I was intrigued by the
whole thing, And the more I get to thinking about,
the more intrigued I was. Because here's this kind of
leaf thing that we put in our food. You don't eat. Yeah,
(00:52):
you're supposed to take it out before you eat the
food that's in, right, which I usually don't do. But
I'm also aware that there's a leaf to be a boy. Sure,
sure you're not unsuspecting, right exactly? Um. And when I
was little, one of my favorite things to eat with spaghetti,
which to this day, as I mentioned on the show,
is one of my weirdest food things. I eat the
noodles and saw separate. But um. I also like to
(01:15):
help my mom make it. And I had a whole
song spaghetti is ready when it six in the wall,
la My favorite part of it was the time to
mix all the ingredients is together. After you like brown
the onions and the garlic and the meat, and you
add in all the like stuff all stuff. Yeah, and
I felt like I was making a potion. And the
(01:36):
weirdest and coolest part of the potion was the bailey,
which I added at the end, just a whole leaf. Yeah,
you're just like, whoop in there? Uh yeah. I did
it with much flourished, like I was expecting it to go. Yeah,
And I felt like I was in Snap's potions class,
but with a much better teacher. And you can fight
me over that if you want. Then it's a terrible teacher, right,
(01:57):
thank you. He makes fun of her bonds tea, Thank you, Lauren.
And it's upsetting most people don't agree with me on
this point. Oh man, I'm very happy I can we
we could have. We're like losing listeners. I feel them,
I feel them going away, but like we could have
if this were a podcast about Harry Potter, we wouldn't
have to have an entire conversation about how Snape is
(02:20):
not meant to be a nice character. Right, Oh gosh,
I would be there for it. I mean, wouldn't be
like just because Alan Rickman is sexy. I'm not going
to argue with that part. Yeah, sure, great boys, interesting
character anyway, Okay before we make everyone furious, um, yeah,
(02:40):
and then yeah, remember him to take it out at
the end, this leaf. Um, I just hadn't. There's nothing
like that, so it felt very potion e to me
when I was a kid. Nothing else like that that
I had encountered. Sure, right, because usually when you add
stuff to a food you eat, you eat it exactly. Yeah,
And it doesn't. It's just stays that hard texture. Yeah. Yeah,
(03:03):
Going off of that kind of Apparently, several decades back,
a wife made some spaghetti sauce forgot to take out
the Bai leaf. Her husband choked on it. Wife calls
nimal one husband survives. Eventually they get divorced, probably unrelated.
Uh And okay, I'm wondering if this is apocryphal or not,
because I found a note that said that they were
(03:24):
living in the time in a town called Laurel, Maryland,
And I'm like, that's a large coincidence for a person
ship choking on a bay leaf for reasons that we're
going to go into in just a second. If if
it is a coincidence, great job, universe. If if it's
if it's not an it's apocryphal, then that's a pretty
funny note to add to a story like that. So
(03:45):
good job either way. Yes, good job all around. But
I suppose this brings us to our question bay leaves.
What are they? Well? Bay leaves can refer to the
eaves of a number of species within the Laurel family.
There you go, yeah, But most often what we're talking
(04:06):
about in Europe and the America's um are the leaves
of a flowering evergreen, small tree, large shrub um kind
of thing, botanical name Laurus nobilis um. They can actually
grow like sixty ft tall it's eighteen meters or so,
but are kept under eight feet in gardens about two
and a half meters anyway. They do grow flowers and berries,
but more to our purposes, they have leaves that are
(04:28):
these thick and leathery pointed ovals at this dark glossy
green about a two to four inches long and maybe
an inch wide. That's about five times by about two
and a half centimeters. And these leaves are harvested for
use as an herb because they contain just a whole
bunch of compounds that have flavors. Savor lavors, yes, about
fifty um you know, give or take depending on your
(04:49):
species at hand. Um, all kinds of stuff. Yeah, like
floral type compounds. Uh, things that seem fruity to humans,
like sweet apples or olive oil, bright citrus, cooling menthal
medic snall herbs, hetty woods, and spicy cloves or cinnamon
or pepper. Bay is a classic ingredient in perfumes and
other cosmetics, particularly masculine sense like bay rum. Oh sure,
(05:13):
I always think masculine when wow, masculine. I don't know,
they're they're kind of like like harsh rather than soft,
which I guess is like the dude lee category of sense. Anyway,
that's a separate podcast as well. Um. But yeah, when
bay leaves are fresh, um, the result of all of
(05:36):
these compounds together, um is a pretty assertive flavor that
can add this this really punchy like floral or bey spicy,
bitter sort of vibe to roasted dishes, soups, mayrionnades, curries
um sort of like a like a complex mint, ranging
into like cough drop territory. You don't want to add
like a lot, or if you do, you're going for
(05:58):
a particular thing, very particular. Yes. Um. When they're dried though, um,
the result is this mellower kind of like earthy spicy
flavor that can add some background up to both savory
and sweet dishes, think like stews and soups syrups for
for cocktails. It features in many recipes for stuff like
a gravy adobou osaka, and like sauces or braises for
(06:22):
roasted meats. Um and either way um. Bay leaves are
best in recipes that you cook sort of low and slow,
like a long long cooking times help transform those sharp
medicinal flavors into these softer herbal flavors, which are generally
what you're looking for unless you're drinking and tomorrow yes sure.
There are two primary varieties of things labeled bay leaves
(06:46):
that are marketed in the United States. Uh Turkish or
Mediterranean bay leaves, which are the aforementioned Laura's nobilis and
California bay leaves, which are yeah, different genus and species
entirely still within the family. Watch out for the difference,
but has the California type are much sharper tasting than
the Mediterranean type. Yeah, don't want to mix those up.
(07:06):
And yeah, you you cook with them by either adding
well ground dried leaves to us stews or the like,
or by adding whole fresh or dried leaves to whatever
you're making. Um. The ground stuff is okay to eat,
but the whole leaves, yeah, need to be taken out
because we can't digest the fiber's tissue of bay leaves
(07:28):
and their their stembits are are pretty pointy. Um. So
it's a stick. Don't swallow sticks. Um, and if you
ate one hole, it could it could scratch up your
throat or intestines. Um. There are, despite the Internet talk
about all of this, like very very very few actual
recorded instances of this kind of thing happening. Um, but
(07:51):
you know, just be careful you have a good time
with sticks. Yeah, they wouldn't need a cinnamon stick hole. Gosh,
don't do that, No, don't do that. Um. But yeah, Um,
one of the things that I was reading mentioned that
bay trees are considered deer resistant because that sharp flavor
(08:17):
and those sharp corners give pause to even giant heck
and herbivores um. Like, yeah, it's it's one of those things,
Like Okay, these flavor compounds and that toughness evolved as
a way to keep bay trees thriving um and sometimes
arid climates a UM and and B to keep them
free from pests. But as with so many things, humans
(08:38):
decided that we like that noise uh, and that we're
we're willing to face the danger of a whole leaf
slipping by and choking us. I gotta live on the edge.
We're pretty metal, It's true. Lauras nobilis most likely originated
from the Celtic word for green lore and the Latin
word for noble nobiles. I've read that the laura's part
(09:00):
might also be from a from a common pre Indo
European route that gave us the Greek word daphne. Like
it seems like there has been some letter D to
letter L dialect or other shenanigans that have gone on
at some point in history. I tried to track down
more specific information about this, but this is apparently something
the Grammarians have opinions about. Um so, yeah, but but
(09:25):
like you can you can see it in other word
pairs like I'm odor an olfactory right or um or
in Ulysses and Odysseus. Interesting. Yeah so ho etymology, unsure status,
unsure mysteries, histories, yes, yeah, but this brings us to
(09:46):
a non mystery, the nutrition whole. No, this was a
mystery too, okay, um so okay, Like like macro nutrition wise,
you're not eating enough Bai leaf or an actual bai leaf,
so you're not really getting any calories from it, probably
like maybe a tiny bit of some kind of sugar. Uh,
maybe some oils of some sort. But yeah, pretty nutritionally
(10:08):
void macro wise, but micro wise, there is a lot
of myth and research out there. Um Bay leaves and
their extracts are used and have been used for everything
from easing gas to aiding digestion and inducing sleepiness when
taken internally, to alleviating dan driff and boils and joint
and muscle pain when applied externally, and are being investigated
(10:31):
for things like preventing cancer and bacterial infections and treating
and preventing type two diabetes and cardiovascular diseases. Of these though,
um like okay like. Preliminary research has indicated that taking
tablets of ground bay leaf can decrease some symptoms that
are known risk factors for diabetes and for cardiovascular disease. Um,
(10:55):
but human bodies are complicated. More research is needed. Oh. Also,
just enough research has been done to show that large
doses of bay leaves can make other drugs like narcotics
or sedatives act all wonky. Huh, So consult a doctor
if you're curious about using bay leaf or anything else,
(11:16):
uh in a medicinal dose. Again, just eating one in
your pasta is not going to You're gonna be fine. No, no,
No danger of drug interactions, right yeah, danger of potential
cut on cheek maybe possibly, but yeah yeah um oh
and yeah, don't bother burning bay leaves unless you really
(11:38):
like the smell. There's no particular evidence that burning bay
leaves has any particular effect on the human body. Are
that inhaling burning bay leaves? Right? Not just the physical act?
I mean it might make you feel a little better. Show. Yeah,
burning stuff is fun. It can be. Don't take my
advice on anything, model yep uh And yeah, yeah, to
(12:03):
keep your baby leaves uh fresh air keeping in the
freezer sealed bag. M. I don't know about the fridge. Yeah,
I don't even know where I got that idea. I
don't think my mom did that. To investigate. Yeah, you're
on You're on your own, doing my own thing. Yeah,
I'm not sure why something. It must say something about
(12:24):
my personality. There must have been a reason in there somewhere,
especially bags and different areas. It sounds like she Shenanigans
have drunk handy to be honest. But I'll think about
that later. But what about some numbers? Some numbers, Okay,
world trade of dried bay leaves is somewhere around two
(12:46):
thousand tons, and Turkey makes up about two thirds of that.
Western Europe imports the most, at an estimated eight hundred tons.
McCormick and co. The Spice Company, a lot of US
are probably familiar with list Bay laurel leaves as one
of their top twenty five products, and to this day
they continue to research. Huh yeah, okay, yes, mostly like
(13:08):
recipe research still. Um and yeah, you can use it
in all kinds of things. Um, sauces soups, does mayonnaise
mashed potatoes, syrups for cocktails, infusion and chocolate pudding, or
warm milk to be used in things like creme brulet um.
A place in Baltimore called Woodbury Kitchen makes a seasonal
ice cream with bay leaf. Varieties of bay leaves are
(13:31):
pretty popular in Italian, French, Indian and Greek cuisines. I
use them, oh yeah, when I make Chipotle's coffeecat cilanchio
lime rice. And apparently some folks find that leaf in
their Chipotle rice that they get from the actual restaurant. Um,
and they think some random leaf from outside ended up
in there. So they're like, how did a tree get
(13:52):
into here? Yeah? What is groot doing in your kitchen? Instagram? Instagram? Yeah,
and they like tweet it Chipotle and s and b
all that's actually an ingredious supposed to be and they're
sorry it ended up in your eyes. It's gonna be
okay um. And also apparently liquorice packages in Italy and
Turkey include laurel leaves, and at one time in Scandinavia
(14:15):
a majority of laurel leaves used in households ended up
being recycled for liquorice packaging. Huh. I would love to
know more about that. Listeners have ye sight yeah strange okay, sure,
yeah yeah. And and Laurel leaves being one of the
pseudonyms or yeah, you know what I mean, other names
(14:36):
very much confusedly for a good portion of the early
part of this research. Wait a minute, is this the
same thing? It is the same thing? Yes, yes, And
speaking of we had we have a lot of history
around that. We do. Gosh, it's great, But first we've
got a quick break forward from our sponsor and we're back.
(15:02):
Thank you sponsors, Yank. And the history for this one
is a bit sparse and a little confusing because a
lot of things have gone by the name bai leaves
or Laurel throughout time. But here's what we know, or
what we think we know, or what historians think they know.
That I am trusting that they know Bailey was most
(15:23):
likely originated and what is now Turkey. Traders from that
region introduced bai leaves to the Mediterranean, and from there
it's spread to regions with similar climates. Now, I couldn't
find any historical reason for somebody being like this leaf,
that's us put it in something. But we're very creative,
innovative bunch we are. Yeah, it smells good. It smells good,
(15:47):
maybe it'll taste good. Let's try it. Yeah. The word
in Greek for the tree itself, the laurel tree, was
Daphne or Daphne. Going back to what you were talking about,
potentially etymology, world wise stuff. Yeah. According to Greek mythology,
Daphne was a nymph who was attempting to evade the
attention of the god of the sun and poets and writers,
(16:08):
Apollo um. In some versions of the story, he had
been struck with one of Cupid's arrows, and Gaya stepped in.
Are possibly her father, Daphne's father, the river god stepped
in and turned Daphne into a laurel tree. Uh yeah, yeah,
suitor evaded your your tree? Now, Okay, why did they
(16:30):
turn Apolo into a tree? Just got son? All right? Uh?
In response, Apollo decreed that the tree was sacred, and
he began wearing a laurel wreath and said, although you
cannot be my wife, you shall at least be my tree.
I shall always wear you on my hair, on my quiver.
Oh laurel, all right, that sounds this, this is all creepy,
(16:53):
so so like she didn't actually evade him at all,
but she has to like hang out like her leaves
have to hang out on his head all the time.
And again she just gets to be a tree. I mean,
I don't know. I might like being a tree, get
to be warm, sun photosynthesizing might feel great. It's true,
You're right, I just feel like I like moving places
(17:14):
you do. I'm a I'm a mover and a shaker. Yes.
Because of this story, baileaves were used in ceremonies by
Greek priestesses in Delphi. Oracles might have chewed the leaves
or inhaled the smoke of burning bay leaves. A bay
leaf under the pillow was thought to grant prophetic dreams.
(17:36):
Some historians, um think that we may be misinterpreting historical
text around all of that, though yes, um, it was
also of course thought to be an aphrodisiac a so
let us one. Yeah, the only thing we've ever stumbled upon. Yeah,
aphrodisiacs twenty billion, which actually I'm because I'm such a nerd.
(18:00):
I read a book this weekend on the history of jokes,
and um, they brought up the lettuce thing, and yes,
and apparently during a certain period in time, lettuce chokes around.
How they weren't they were going to slow you down
like a whole thing. Yes, And I was like, that's great,
my two worlds coming together, jokes and hot food history.
(18:25):
That's amazing. It was um. The association of Bailey's with
honor meant that Bailey's were highly regarded. Victorious Greek and
Roman athletes and soldiers were sometimes crowned with a wreath
of sweet bay leaves. A laurel wreath indicated military rank,
and this is where we get terms like baccalaureot meaning
(18:46):
laurel berries and laureate bay Laurel rees were given to
successful poets at ancient Greeks Pythian Games, held in Apaula's honor.
Poet laureate Yes, and Greek students were expected to be
too debtic added to their studies to marry. Bachelor's also
from the same roots as baccalaureate. So cool. Also sayings
(19:08):
like resting on one's laurels. Sure yeah yeah. Also my
name there you go, laurel laurels. Oh no, the laurel
yawnie thing came rushing back to my brain. I have
no idea. What you're talking about is that that thing
where some people it was a clip of sound and
some people heard Laurel and some people heard Yawnie. Oh right,
(19:30):
I heard Laurel. I never listened to it. You shouldn't.
It could be some kind of weird ring thing. You
never know. Okay, done seven years from now, I'll regret
having listen to it. Some believe that Bailey is protected
from witchcraft, and the Caesar's thought it prevented conspiracies and accidents.
(19:52):
I don't think that worked out that well for lots
of them, but doesn't seem to have. I could be wrong,
abe it worked out for some of them. Maybe there
was competing Okay, like it. Yeah. The ancient Greeks believe
that Baileys cast out spirits, and somebody even put a
leaf in their mouth in the morning to cast any
(20:12):
bad spirits out. By some accounts, these beliefs attached to
bay leaves lasted in England until the sixteenth or seventeenth centuries,
particularly the anti which anti deevil aspect of them. Um.
Some Europeans believed that at decaying bay tree portended bad omens. Okay, sure, yes,
(20:32):
Emperor Tiberius who was terrified of lightning and thunder, wore
Laurel wreaths for protection during storms. When I read that,
I thought, certainly not. But there is a lot of
a lot of evidence for it. A lot of writing
at the time suggested that was true. Laurel was believed
to ward off any potential harm from lightning and thunder,
and the idea came from the widely held belief that
(20:55):
laurel trees were never struck by lightning because they were
inhabited by a fire demon and thus full of fire
and thus lightning. Oh, this was something our old pal
plenty abscribed to, and he warned against burning Laurel on
altars or in ceremonies quote for the ap propitiation of divinities. Huh,
(21:18):
don't do it. Don't do it, nah, or those other
people maybe did it. But that's true. You know, I
don't know solid I don't know solid scientific. Yeah. Shakespeare's
Richard the second mentioned bay trees to thought. The king
is dead, we will not stay. The bay trees in
(21:39):
our country are all withered and meteors fright, the fix
stars of heaven, the pale faced moon looks bloody on
the earth, and lean looked prophets whispered fearful change those
decaying bay trees. Yes, yeah, it's a reference to the
superstition that a laurel tree that, by custom Roman Emperor's
planted would start to wither right before their death. Oh right,
(22:02):
I know, Okay, how scary that would be if you
really believe that, and you're what went on the morning
won't get the madree. Meanwhile, it's just like an insect
or a fungus or something like that, or fate. It
could be any of that stuff both, it could be.
That's right. Throughout history, Yes, baileaves have been used medicinally
(22:26):
and as an insect repellent, everything from keeping moss out
of clothes like early moth falls and so away from
drains and insects out of flowers bai leaves and boiling water.
They were believed to serve as an antiseptic um. Some
even believed they induced abortions. From Nicholas Culpepper's seventeenth century
(22:46):
the complete herbal bai leaves were quote effectual against the
poisons of all venomous creatures and the sting of wasps
and bees. That's inaccurate. Some of those other things are
as solid possibly, but this one is not. This is
a solid nah. I mean it might. I don't know.
There's like some soothing stuff in there, like like mental
and eucalyptol and stuff like that, a little bit soothing,
(23:08):
but okay, I'll give it a solid possibly. I like
the begrudging manner in which you did it, okay. Culpepper
actually had a lot of interesting things to say about
the bay leaf quote that it is a tree of
the sun, and under the celestial sun, leo, and resisteth
witchcraft very potently, as also all the evils Old Saturn
(23:30):
can do to the body of man, and they are
not off you, for it is the speech of one
and I am mistaken. If it were not masoldous, that
neither witch nor devil, thunder noor lightning will hurt a
man in the place where a bay tree is well, dang, well,
dang exactly better plants and bay trees we should right
(23:52):
here in the studio. I was about to say, they're
pretty big, as you said, you can you can prune them,
you can keep them small. And we wouldn't tell anybody.
Somebody would just come in one day and we have
an intense grow light bay tree situations, and we have
police tape around it. Do not touch no other note.
I like it sounds that's our speed right there. Everyone
(24:15):
would know immediately, oh that was Dannie Lauren. There would
be like, Annie Lauren, how are you up to now?
A source from the eighteen hundreds described at the practice
in France Burgundy, in particular of using bay leaves at weddings.
Bay was decorated with ribbons, and then the best man,
with the help of six assistants, lifted it up to
the highest chimney of the newly wedded home. I couldn't
(24:36):
figure out if that was like a seven had to
be seven number or anything, but anyway, um, then they'd
take a bottle of brandy and break it over the
bay leaf. I'm assuming it was a wreath to protect
the house from lightning, so very early lightning rod and
they'd sing a song which I is in French, and
I'm going to attempt so apologies to myself to everyone else,
(24:59):
but I think we can get through this. Yeah, no,
I have yes, totally, thank you do it yet? Plante
l Larier Le bon Vine novels, Madrier Manage too tros
toothros Tooth Trills, A tour bouvan chanton, iron lomovoi, cevoi, cervois, roget, grantie,
(25:25):
pun larier, rivati rosham lav lav lave. Yeah. Yeah, I
don't speak French at all, so that sounded just fine
to me. Basically, it's everything is good for drinking and singing.
Ya go live. Apparently, the belief that Bailey has provided
(25:49):
protection from lightning um was so strong that people would
walk around during thunderstorms with branches of their leaves over
their heads. This is one of my favorite facts, hopefully
facts that light That's great that you're just walking around like,
hope no lightning strikes me. Here's some branch. Here's my
anti lightning branch. And I like to imagine you don't
(26:10):
have an umbrella. Yeah, I see. I'm hoping contrariwise that
the branch was big enough and thick enough then an umbrella, UM,
that would be Yeah, that would be ideal. That would
be or like maybe you have an umbrella and it
hangs down from there. There's a lot of options are
(26:33):
around this time, there was a belief in England that
by placing five bay leaves on your pillow, the four
corners in the middle on Falentine's Day e, women could
get visions of their future husband's. In some versions, they
were supposed to put on an inside out clean The
women were an inside out clean night dress and recite
good to Valentine, be kind to me, and dreams let
(26:55):
me my true love. See. I guess it works as
good as anything. Sure I've said before. I used to
do the apple thing. You carve the all the skin
off the apple and then you let it sit outside
for a little bit. Whatever the letter, that's the name,
that what it's going to start with your future husband. Well,
(27:17):
very scientific, I'm sure. Bay was a part of some
funeral traditions in Western Europe and the U S as well,
either laid out across a coffin or sprinkled beforehand. The
laurel wreath featured heavily in the design of the Olympics
and Rio. And this brings us to some conspiracy. Conspiracy
Oh my gosh, yes, okay. In seen, Kelly Convoy posted
(27:42):
an article titled the Vast bay Leaf Conspiracy over at
the All, arguing that bay leaves don't do a damn thing.
Uh quote, maybe you've had this experience. You stow a
bay leaf into a broth and it doesn't do anything.
Then you throw the rest of the bay leaves you
brought into the off too, because you only bought them
for this item. And you'll be damned if you don't
(28:04):
taste a bay leaf and they don't do anything either.
What could be the cause of this? I'll tell you.
Bay leaves are bullet What does a baileif taste like nothing?
What does a bailey smell like nothing? What does a
baileyf look like a leaf? How does the bailey behave?
It behaves as a leaf wood? If you took a
(28:24):
leaf from the tree outside of your apartment building and
put it into your soup. She interviewed a bunch of chefs,
most of whom argued that baileaves were not in fact,
and some rebuttal pieces were published, as well as pieces
in support of her um. Anthony Bourdaine even got drawn in.
He said, count me in the yes team. I do
(28:46):
use baileys, and yes they are important, particularly for cream
sauces and poaching liquid court bouleon for fish. I can
understand how some would feel they get lost in more
forceful dishes like peefs do, but I think they add
something color me old cool. There's so many responses to it. Yeah. Yeah,
it's kind of the first thing that pops up when
you start googling. Just yeah, bay whatever whatever. Yeah, it's
(29:10):
like auto fills conspiracy. It's I think it's very funny
and probably um an indication of the less than fresh
dried spices, because I mean, of course he has and
dried spices, not fresh. But but if they've been sitting
for a long time, yeah, and we're not perhaps packaged properly,
(29:31):
or if you know they've been sitting in your house
in an u previously opened container, they do degrade like
the flavors do dissipate over time because they're volatile chemicals
and that's what they do. Um. So I'm like, I'm like,
just get maybe should buy better Bay leaves. Yeah, And
there's a lot of confusion around. As you said earlier,
(29:52):
the California one is stronger and you can get that
one fresh, which a lot of people think means it
will be better, but actually it's quite different. You should
not substitute Turkish for a California vice versa. UM. In general, yes,
many many specific recipes will call for a specific like
geographical location type. Perhaps I think Indonesian is one, Indian
(30:16):
is another, UM. But yeah, yeah, all of these different ones.
And if you're don't, don't necessarily when in doubt go
with the Turkish or Mediterranean kind. Yeah. I think those
are the best substitute all around for stuff. But there
are distinctly different flavor compounds um that are going to
add different notes to all of these different things. So yeah, yeah,
(30:37):
And as part of all of this this conspiracy, there
were a lot of tests that were done by uh
everyone ranging from like Anthony Borden into home home cooks.
And the biggest thing they say is if you don't
believe bailiefs, do something. Put it in boiling water. One
in boiling water and the other not, and you'll taste
the flavor in the water that you boil with baileiaf
(30:59):
and some but he did a three part taste test
of old dried leaves, fresh dried leaves, UM, and like
fresh leaves, and she said that definitely the fresh dried
baileys were the best, and that it was she she
likened them to laundry sheets, whereas she couldn't, like you
(31:20):
can't necessarily pinpoint what they're adding, but they're adding something Yeah,
they're making couplex layers. They're not the star. They're there
to support. Yeah, well there you go. Yeah, I like
bai leaves. Oh I love a baileaf. I think you
smell great. They could have been lots of stuff. I
still do that posh ingredient thing. You shouldn't try it
(31:42):
anyone who hasn't done it. It's quite fun, I believe you,
the simple things sometimes. Yeah, it's so surprisingly fun research episode. Yeah,
I love this kind of stuff. Oh, it's so fun.
But yeah, we've got this is This is about all
that we have to say about Bai Leaves. We do
have a little bit more for you, but first we've
(32:02):
got one more quick break for what from our sponsor,
and we're back. Thank you sponsoring, Yes, thank you, and
we're back with list sir, like a leaf down, I
(32:27):
love it, Aaron wrote, I had no idea this was
a more widespread thing until I listened to your cinnamon
rolls episode this morning. Growing up in Oklahoma in the seventies,
back when school lunches were cooked on site once a month,
our school lunch was something called bean chowder, and it
was always served with an amazing cinnamon roll. I hated
the bean chowder. I can't understand why anyone voluntarily ate it,
(32:51):
but I always had hot lunch that day just so
I could get cinnamon roll Looking back, I suppose bean
chowder could be considered a form of chili, but really
it's not being chowder. Gosh, I've never heard of that.
Something to google, okay. Teresa wrote, first of all, thank
you so much for making Savor Your fun banter and
(33:13):
food puns are a joy, and I was particularly delighted
that you did a podcast on cinnamon rolls. I lived
in Nebraska for a little while, and I can confirm
that cinnamon rolls and chili is certainly a thing there.
It's quite delicious, and I think it makes sense because
many people include cinnamon or chocolate as a secret ingredient
in chili. I've been on a quest over the past
five years to find the best cinnamon role in America.
(33:36):
I've tried cinnamon rolls in Nebraska, Missouri, Washington State, Oregon, California,
and Colorado. There's a place in Colorado Springs that has
cinnamon rolls twelve inches in diameter. Denver Biscuit Company also
has cinnamon rolls that are five inches tall and are
a favorite post run meal. But my favorite cinnamon role
is for sure found at Tartine, the famous San Francisco
(33:59):
Bay gree The texture is so incredibly flaky and beautiracious,
which means like butter and tender. I normally factor in
the quality of the frosting in my cinnamon role evaluation,
and this role does not have any frosting, but instead
an orange glaze, which adds the perfect note of bitterness
to contrast the sweetness. It is so good and I
make a point to get one every time I'm in
(34:21):
San Francisco. Finally, sorry so long. I have lots of
thoughts and feelings about cinnamon rolls. One of my favorite
things to do with cinnamon rolls is make cinnam moffles,
which is where I put the popcan of cinnamon rolls
in a waffle baker. The resulting cinnamon rolls are a
mixture of crunchy and soft and are wonderfully easy. Oh
my heck, that sounds so good, really really really Oh no,
(34:45):
oh geez okay, all right, Well, the next time I
encounter a waffle maker, I have one. Oh no, okay,
I can make this happen. Geez al right, Well, I
guess if we have to Heck, I've never actually been
to Tartine, but I've been meaning to go. I haven't
(35:06):
been in San Francisco in a long time. I went
to Tartine last time I was there, but I foolishly
did not get the cinnamon roll, and usually there's quite
a wait to get into Tartine. Sure, yeah, so I
put in my time, I didn't even get this. Well,
whatever I had that was delicious, I believe you. Yeah,
that was. I was a very That trip was very
planned out, so a lot of it's blur, a very delicious, delicious,
(35:29):
fun blur. But you you are a human who can
squeeze a lot of things in. Yeah. Yeah, it's one
of those times where I think my travel companions might
have murdered me at one. Oh you seem like you're
still fine in here. Yeah. I doubt they would ever
go to San Francisco with me again. But that's it.
(35:51):
That's fine. Some people can't handle your tenacity. Yeah, thank
you will say that. That's what it is. Thanks to
both of those listeners for writing in. Yes, you would
like to write to us, you can. Our email is
Hello at savor pod dot com. We're also on social media.
You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at
(36:11):
savor pod and we do hope to hear from you.
Savor is production of I Heart Radio and Stuff Media.
For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, you can visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows, shows, shows, shoons. Thanks as
always to our superproducers Dylan Bagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks
to you for listening, and we hope that lots more
(36:31):
good things are coming your way.
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Anney Reese
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