August 14, 2024 • 44 mins
The 2022 graphic novel Cult Girls written by Natalie Grand and illustrated by Cassandra Bolan tackled the author's experience with a patriarchal, suppressive religion and breaking free from it.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Stuff'll Ever Tell You production of iHeartRadio,
and welcome to another edition of book Club. Quick content
warning before we get into this, we are going to
talk about controlling religions, patriarchy and religions, bad stuff and religions,
(00:33):
yeast trauma, religious drama, cr past religious drama episodes, and
are episodes on women and cults. Also, this is a
new book. It came out in twenty twenty two, so spoilers.
So yeah, we've been we've been really going in for
the new new material and cults. I don't know, I know,
(00:56):
it's just a thing.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
We're gonna do it now, guess I guess, so I
guess thing.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Fine, it's it's just a thing we're in. That's all right.
So this will probably be a shorter one. It's a
shorter book. Graphic novels, graphic novel, right, yeah, graphic novel.
But you never know, we get to going. It could
go on and on, but today we are talking about
the twenty twenty two graphic novel Cult Girls, written by
Natalie Grant and illustrated by Cassandra Bolin. It focuses on
(01:26):
Talia a young woman who was raised as Jehovah's witness
and with the help of a friend, is fading or
slowly extricating herself from it, and Talia slowly explores parts
of the world she hadn't previously through that traveling, college, work, relationships, motherhood,
all while navigating family and friends that are still j
(01:48):
W's Jehovah's witnesses. Talia's story is specifically based on the
author's own negative experience with Jehovah's witnesses. And note the
author in this story or is focusing on her own time, yes,
but also going back to our Religious Trauma mini series,
there is the potential for this in so many religions
(02:09):
and examples of this in so many religions, So just
to keep that in mind, I did want to read
the opening excerpt that's introducing what this graphic novel is
going to be. Talia and Colt Girls is an inspired
story of my life as a young divorce Californian woman
who've left. The story also covers the inspiring and support
(02:33):
of friends I had along the way, telling how they
were able to find new purposes in their lives, specifically
how they, like myself, dealt with the reality of being raised, married,
and eventually having rejected this particular suppressive religion. It's a
beautiful story filled with hope, romance, female empowerment, and self exploration,
with therapeutic humor throughout the journey. Once you've left a cult,
(02:56):
take it from me, flashbacks remain while the root teens
and doctrines take some more time to break. Cult Girls
can be appreciated by those who have left a similarly
suppressive religion and or had experience with oppressive relationships and
misguided parental control. And then I wanted to include this.
This is at the end first quote from a review
(03:20):
from Trina Robbins. This beautifully illustrated graphic novel pertains to
any cult, nicely and clearly written. It's a good, if
herring story. And then, Cult Girls, based on a true story,
tells the tale of Talia and her friends as they
struggle with growing suspicions that their faith is a patriarchal
religious cult. It's a story of tremendous courage and female
(03:43):
empowerment as Talia and her friends successfully free themselves, told
through a feminist lens with cautionary humor. So one thing
I did find interesting about this is that it's very
as we were talking about this before, it's very informational.
It's got a lot of facts in it. It feels kind
of like a pamphlet, you know. It feels sort of
like the opposite of the religious pamphlet. It's sort of like, hey,
(04:06):
you just got that pamphlet, here's this one. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
I guess it would be hard not to because you
have to understand why what she does is so shocking
and or anti to that religion. So she has to
give you excerpts of like this is part of the law,
and this is part of what they do, and this
is part of the tradition. We kind of talk about
that in our episodes of Our Christian Trauma Religious Trauma,
(04:32):
because I talk about my own experiences and there's a
lot I think I was similar to what I had
explained what happened with us about like the witnesses and
about being called out in the middle of church and
being told you can't be a part of like are
excommunicated essentially, and you're being told you're no longer a member.
But it doesn't go to the point of like where
she talks about like that other people cannot communicate with you,
(04:55):
or they would be seen as also a part of
that world or whatever world they think. The pants stuff,
all of that was very familiar. So even though I
did I have, my religion that I grew up in
was very fearful of the Jehovah's witness. And I'm saying
this in a way of like my religion, my church
that I grew up in hated anything except their own
(05:16):
point of view, so they believed anything else was blasphemous.
So even like I think I said, this Southern Baptist
was like no, as well as like Church of Christ
absolutely not Catholics, Oh my god, you know, like as
Foreman's Ah, Jehovah's witness, like all of those things, but
they try to revere them in a way. So when
we would have friends that would come over that were
(05:36):
Jehovah's witness and I would be told, oh, we can't
invite them to birthday parties, and I was like what
I remember being told this about a friend and being told, Hey,
this is their their beliefs, don't question it, like you know.
So we were told to be respireful, but like at
the same time, my church was like, oh, they're they're
not the Good Church. And this not again, not just
(05:57):
the Jehovah's Witness, I mean like every other religion and
every other belief, even if it's in the same denomination. Nope, nope, no,
not as good as us, which is very familiar to
her story.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yes, yes, And I didn't really write a plot out
for this because it's essentially there's some flashbacks of her
as a child with her family. She has a really fun,
kind of depressing thing at the beginning where she breaks
down the characters with the little bios and it's like
her mom has gone through this abuse, her dad is abusive, right,
(06:34):
her friends who are what they're going through, and so
you do get flashbacks from her childhood, but it's largely
her coming to realize through the help of friends, are
just kind of growing up and going out to the world, yeah,
that this is not a religion that is for her,
(06:56):
and dealing with all of that baggage, because when you
do grow up in religion, it's hard to shake that off.
It's really really, really difficult. And her like seeing these
new things and learning these new things, and throughout is
that fear, as you mentioned, if she gets excommunicated, if
(07:20):
she gets kicked out. Yeah, then the people in her
life who are still Jehovah's witnesses can't talk to her.
That's it. Like, if they still want to stay in
which presumably they do, they do, they can't talk to her,
So that's the end. So she's sort of trying to
push it off for as long as she can, and
(07:43):
then eventually she does. What's it called she gets announced?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I think, Yeah, the story obviously is kind of her
explaining her life. It feels like as she is talking
about how different she is and being and we're gonna
talk about in the plot of the book, she uh
gets into a new relationship and she's like, oh my god,
I'm gonna have to tell them all these things, and
I'm gonna sound like such an odd ball, like he's
gonna be like, what the hell type of thing. It
(08:12):
feels like it is her trying to explain herself in
a comedic form in a graphic novel and trying to
be like, this is who I am, this is why
I am this way, so here you go, which I
think a lot of people would be like, yeah, that's
exactly what I went through as well. On a deeper level,
like she talks about at one point never seen a
rated R movie. So every time he'd be like, have
you watched this? Have you wish She's like, no, I
(08:34):
don't even know what that is. I don't know what
that means. I don't know you like trying to explain
her like this is why I'm so different, let me
show you. And I feel like this was her kind
of ode to herself and others around her, her newfound family,
like this is who I am. Uh so, here you go,
good luck yea, and her like first steps out into
(08:54):
publishing that and revealing herself yes.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yes, because it's kind of broken down like that. It's
kind of broken down like R rated movie travel, like
you know, themes like that, and having a short scene
that demonstrates, oh, this is why I wasn't I'd never
experienced that or I felt like I was being strange
around that or something. And yet so she gets in,
(09:21):
She finds friends that find kind of solace in each other.
Then she finds this relationship, and then eventually she gets
a job, She goes to college, she has a baby,
or she's about to have a baby. She finds out
she's pregnant. But yeah, the plot is essentially her balancing
wanting to keep the people still in religion in her life,
(09:45):
but wanting to also leave that behind and move on
and do these other things. So yeah, with that, oh,
I would say probably one of the biggest themes is
kind of you you're controlling family and your controlling religion
and growing up in that. So in this case, she
(10:06):
would be called a fader. And those are people that
try to fade out of this religion without a formal announcement,
because again, if you get the announcement, that's it. You
can appeal and you can like try to get back in,
but you try to avoid it. And I do think
this is not unique to Jehovah's witnesses. We've talked about
(10:30):
this before, but I do think it was interesting the
sort of understanding that people were all trying to cheat
the system in some way and or like people just
weren't following the rules in private that they were saying
in public right.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Right, And it was obviously like more women than men
that were being being called out, which was funny because
they couldn't talk in the church. Yeah, which is yeah,
that's with a lot of religions. We talked about that before.
The misogyny in religions in general, and this is no
different from almost all westernized religions.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yes, yes, and it is true that this is and
here we're talking about her experience specifically, was a very
intense experience in terms of the ways they try to
keep you in of the like loss of family of
friends if you leave the being isolated. Perhaps this is
(11:33):
like all you know, the only community you know, And
that's something we've talked about before on perhaps not the
same scale, but in a lot of places, being a
part of the church is important, like that is where
you get your community, Where you get your community or
what have you. So to have that just cut off
(11:54):
and have everybody sort of judge you, especially in like
a small town, because there was a lot of scenes
of her like walking around and there'd be people like
whispering behind their hands as she passed, to feel like
you lose that, especially if you're in a vulnerable place.
That's where that's where a lot of cults really work,
(12:14):
is if you're in a vulnerable place, and this is
where you get your community. Also throughout based on that
is she's constantly debating with her family, she's trying to
do it in a way that is like I'll show you,
you know, there's more to life than this, but also
(12:36):
not wanting them to abandon her or isolate her or
freak out. I guess, like trying to manage their feelings
around it, because they always kept coming back to this
religion and it being a constant thing in her life,
(12:57):
and when she would talk to them, when she would
introduce them to like her new boyfriend for instance, and
they're immediately, you've got to get married right now, and
you've got to move in and you've got to become
a jobes witness or else. Right, it's just a lot
to deal with, yes, mm hmmm, Yes, I'm also there
(13:19):
was discussion of being forbidden from associating with members of
the religion if you leave, and public shaming, public shaming.
I feel like we talked about this briefly too, But
in churches when they do the you know, this person
has not been showing up or they've done X, Y
(13:41):
and Z, we should pray for them, like very publicly
within your community probably, Yeah, calling you out and how
that can shame you and keep you in something that
you might not want to be in, right mm hmm.
(14:02):
There is a scene that really illustrates that point. Later
when again she's getting called in by the elders, uh,
who are questioning why she hasn't been to to so
many meetings or what have you, and they're asking her
really really inappropriate sexual questions.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
And they're like a group of older dudes and they're
just asking her of these questions that they feel perfectly
within their right to ask to potentially kick her out.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yep, like you were saying, shame her after the fact
or during the fact. Because there were many incidents in
which the pastor would speak on specific incidents so that
they could whisper about who oh who did that?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Oh was her right?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Which I've seen happen at my own dredge. Yeah, yeah, l.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Speaking of Yike's, another big theme was the apocalypse, right,
which is a big part of a lot of religions. Yes,
but it was throughout kind of this idea of, well,
the apocalypse is going to come, so why should we
care for the land or why should we voach, or
why should we do this? Why should I get good grades?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Like? Yeah, and historically this is not the only religion
that would do this, but they really have specific years.
So the original founders of the Jehovah's Witness thought that
when he started this specific religion and being enlightened to
do this religion, that the end of the world was
gonna be two years later, which is I think it
was like nineteen seventy something in which he was like,
(15:46):
it's about to be the end of the world. So
they often reset, they do, and with that believing that
that will fix everything. So there's nothing to fix. It's
kind of like that predetermination type of thing, predestined so
that it is what it is. So you don't need
to help anyone other than they need to find Jesus
(16:07):
or not Jesus, they need to be a part of
Jehovah's Witness, which is Jesus.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, but I mean we've talked about this before. This
is not unique, as we said to Jehovah's witnesses. But
when you're a kid, that idea of apocalypse and like hell,
it could really mess you up. I can stay with you.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Well, there was one specific drawing where the sister is
so scared for her her sister and she's picturing her
in hell, like she's like, you're so miserable now because
you're falling away from Jehovah that all I can imagine
is you're going to be unhappier because you're going to
be in hell.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah. Yes, And we talked about that in our Religious
Trauma series. I've heard that from people like I'm afraid
you're going to go to Hell, so I'm trying to
help you. Yeah, and I understand. But it's also like, well, yeah,
I guess.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It is what it is, but it's such an odd
context because their apocalypse typically like the idea of good deeds, yes,
is in other religions and not that Jehovah's witness don't.
But their good deed is to go out and do
their work, do their witnessing and giving out pamphlets while
everything else is up to Jehovah. Or this is Jehovah's intent,
(17:33):
whether it is being the dude, what was it. I
think it was the father when he did all those
bad things. He's like, oh, Jehovah handled that. Jehovah.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
That was his like.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Resolve, or being like looking at boobs and being like,
I'm an amazing man and riding the bike. All that
is Jehovah. She's like, but what did you think about science?
Nos Jehovah like all of those in this reference because
in the mind of everything's already paid for and for
me as a man, and since I haven't been called
out by the elders, who are the ultimate authority, I'm fine. Yeah,
(18:05):
and apocalypse will take care of all everything essentially, That's
what I believe.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, oh yeah. She was definitely saying that was the
vibe was why are we even here? The apocalypse will
be better after that, And there was sort of a
like self assured almost shot in Freuda of like, well,
you didn't do what you had to do, so I
will be in paradise and you shall be in hill.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah. They're very number centric, but she talks about math
and she's like, this is not this is not math,
and he's like two plus two does not equal the
U two of you. I did like that reference.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I guess this is a good segue into one of
the biggest themes of the book. The graphic novel is
definitely the patriarchy within religion. There's a quote pretty early
on men are better than women. This is something we
did talk about in our religious trom episodes. I feel
(19:10):
like it comes up often when we speak about religion.
But all the ways that that manifested in her life
and how she witnessed it, and how it had an
impact on her self esteem. And one of those things
she witnessed was religious authorities who can only be men
and get a lot of exceptions to the rules, a
lot of men doing wrong and being forgiven by the organization,
(19:35):
and then a lot of clear sexism and who gets
kicked out and punished, meaning women were much more likely
to get punished, whereas men could be like, well, it's
Jehovah or whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
It's Jehovah. As well as like the skull argument, women's
small heads are smaller and so they are not able
to think as broadly like men who are much more intelligent.
Men are better because of schools. The elder Caleb, who
was her brother in law that pete at everyone that
was a peeping tom that was doing sexually predatory stuff
(20:11):
was an elder. So he was like, no, no, no,
you misunderstood.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yes. Yes. There was a lot of infuriating things about
the elders in this particular case. And then there was
another quote, I could lose my position as an elder
if my wife isn't being submissive, So it's it's also
you have to do you have to be submissive, you
have to do what I tell you. You have to make
(20:36):
me look good, even if I am perhaps a peeping tom. Right,
you are the one that is going to be punished
in this or make me look bad, right, not this
thing that I did. Right, And going back to that
point of what I said earlier, the differences of how
(20:57):
women and men are treated and who was forgiven within
this organization, there were several instances she pointed out of
gay pornography and probably underduraged gay pornography, pedophilia being taught
all worldly men. She do drugs and much porn constantly,
but she has these instances of them doing it.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Right so much so that that's one of the things
that she specializes in real life, like apparently, like she
wrote the fact that she works in helping to stand
up for children who have been victims by religious predators,
like because she's seen she has seen so much of
that She's like, absolutely not. And she even talks about
the fact that the marriage oftentimes are unequaled, young girls
(21:43):
who barely graduated high school if they did, marrying older
men and not really having a choice about it. She
does mention that briefly, but she got lucky and married
a dude that seemed okay but was not compatible with her,
and the gay porno was that big, bright shining light.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yes of like.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Oh, as well as I'm stealing all the money.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah. Yeah, so she did get married. We didn't mention
that she did get married prior to the guy she
meets later, who is one of the worldly men, as
they're called if you're outside of the religion, one of
the worldly men in it. Yeah, it did not go
well for multiple reasons, multiple reasons.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
That will be two reasons.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, that expands. But yes, also, like I said, this
is sort of like a pamphlet. It has a lot
of facts in it. It's very it's a great story,
but a lot of it is got you know, here's this, factors, this, factors,
this fact There's some stuff about homophobia in there, there's
(22:53):
stuff about racism in there, there is stuff about pedophilia
in there, and then there's a lot of discussion around
things like abortion. For here's a quote I uds are abortion.
There's a lot of discussion around sex being sinful and
discussing a source of shame, especially for women.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Oh yeah, yeah, but at the same time as duty, yes,
called it the duties.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yes, especially after well definitely after you're married only I
should say. But yeah. It was something she was really
concerned about because it had been told to her her
whole life, and something she had to grapple with with
her new partner because that was your going to hell
(23:46):
kind of violation. You don't do that right.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
It was also one of those that which again happens
to most religions, that they are told that the father
continuously says, mary him, marry him before you, before you sin,
before you sin, marry him. So that's the solution, like
the easy solution for you to have sexes to be married. Yes, yes,
so for him, I guess the dude rather than the women,
(24:10):
because you know, obviously women have no desire.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
No desire, which does bring us to marriage. That was
a big theme, as you said, pushing children, especially women
to get married early. I'm saying that like you hear
that as a kid, but you weren't like super young
to being pushed to get married, yes, and not being
allowed to have sex before marriage, not being allowed to
(24:35):
move in together before marriage. A lot of gossip around
that and what you might have done being pressured too,
as you said, put out once married, and also kind
of a dowry situation the father definitely later when it's
a worldly man, it's like, I can't afford to fay
(24:55):
for this. She's like, got it, uh.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Right, Well, that's kind of like in the tradition that
the man pays for the or the wife's family pays
for the wedding, which is that tradition instead of like
the goats. That was old school biblical ways in itself.
But yeah, and again as a reminder about the I
feel like I may have talked over you about the
(25:20):
IUD thing, but any birth control was seen as abortion,
Like that needs to be a conversation, and not just IUDs,
but like condoms, any kind of preventative measure is abortion
and against God's will. A lot of like we were
not going to talk about it, but the medical procedures
in general. She talks about the blood transfusion as well,
and we know that Jehovah's witnesses have that work that
they cannot do, that they cannot serve in the military,
(25:42):
they cannot vote, all these things because that is worldly things.
But yes, any kind of preventative birth control immediately know
because that is killing of children, as they would.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Say, yeah, yep. And there's a scene later where after
she has sex with Alan, her new boyfriend, which I
did love that I feel that the orgasm was represented
with fireworks, she realizes she's not on birth control and
(26:15):
freaks out and her friends are like, oh, plan B.
And she didn't know what it was, never heard of it.
She was like plan B for what?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Plan B for what?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
What plan?
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Like? Her friend says that it was very much still
a part of the Mormon just like what other plans
the other plan.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Right, But that does get to another point we're about
to get to about education and how that's controlled as well.
But yeah, divorce is also a big thing and financial
control and abuse around that. So when I was first
reading this, there was a thing that was about the
marriage fantasy, and I thought it was going to be,
(26:54):
you know, like what wedding dress will you get? All
that stuff? No, it was how you fantasize about your
man marriage ending because you have to have a reason, right,
You have to have like a legit reason to get
out of the marriage, because you can't just get divorced.
So people fantasizing about like what if he cheats or
what if he does this, and then I won't be
(27:15):
shamed for not making this word.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
And I think she talks about the two or more witnesses,
which is a biblical context, because again my church that
I went to, which is not Jehovah's witness used that
context as well if you wanted to. They weren't as
nosey as this as authoritative, but you can make it
authoritative so that people would bring up objections. And this
was also a power of control because of a lot
of the times it's people who didn't want to be
(27:40):
divorced because of whatever shame. And this does not include
and I don't see hard talking about it, but I
have a feeling it's as similar to that abuse, like
only reason accilorating to biblical standards. And I talked about
this specifically in our Religious Trauma episode is adultreat But
you have to have witnesses, which talked about it's hard
to prove because typically two people don't know it, right,
(28:04):
which is why men can get away with often right.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah. And also financially, we've talked about that outside of religion,
there's a lot of financial abuse, especially if one person
is controlling the finances. Often men in situations like this,
even if it's not their money, but they're the ones
in control, or maybe just financial literacy, because again the
(28:30):
author does speak to education in this context and having
that being limited about her own experiences being homeschooled. Some
of them are funnier than others. Some of them are like, well, funnier,
but like not knowing how to connect. She has some
awkward situations where she just doesn't know how to socialize.
But I can see it definitely playing out to if
(28:55):
you're getting married so young, many women talk about quitting
their jobs once they get married, dropping out of school,
then it makes sense to me that there would be
issues around money in that relationship and that could keep
you in a really abusive situation. And they were also
(29:18):
really strict rules around for women behaviors media. As you said,
the rated R movies is one food, health relationships, just
like every aspect of your life.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
There were rules, yes, and the men picked out the clothes.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think it.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Again, we're talking about this in the context of like
the graphic novel that she had pointed out, But again,
she also does an amazing job with her friendship and
showing like different levels, yes, of beliefs as well as
her family. So she does a really good job and
being able to show that context of like not everyone
is like this, and everyone has different parts of what
(30:02):
they believe and people who are very cool within the religion.
Her family just wasn't one of them, right, And I.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Do think that's a good point, because she shows examples
of it not being that. I think she's more pointing
out it could be like this, and I saw the
instances of it being like this, right. But that brings
(30:35):
us to our final point when we like so much friends, Yeah, friendship.
So her friend Rosa. Rosa's openness about her experience within
Jehovah's witness helped open Talia's eyes and kind of open
her worlds. They became roommates, and yeah, they just kind
(31:00):
of were really there for each other. And it was
interesting because it felt like a lot of times when
you were reading about the exceptions the men made were
oh he has a role rex he really shouldn't. Oh
he cheated and he's going to be get off scot free.
But for them it was like, let's good to grease.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I love the Christmas segment like I love the first time,
and they all went all out and then they're like,
oh no, my parents are coming and they're hiding, which yes,
again relateab well, not Christmas, but other things that I'm like,
I gotta have this, But the fact that the pope
two of them are together, and even when Talia is
talking about her relationship and Rosa celebrating, but Rosa's like, yeah,
(31:40):
I got you, like just being able to have her
back in most of the situations when the wedding happens.
When so the entire thing is Talia trying to not
get announced before her wedding so that all of her
Jehovah witness friends can attend because they can associate with her,
including her family. So she's just like waiting for that,
(32:00):
but all of her friends are helping her because they're
trying to turn all of her friends against her. The
elders are like I loved each one of them. I'd like,
oh no, we got her back, we got her back.
It was really like, oh, that's really sweet. Even the
one couple who were more involved in the Jehovah's witness
but her friend who was still in a really good marriage,
it looked like they were actually happy and he was
(32:21):
supportive of her instead up for her, but like both
of them were like, yeah, I don't know what you're
talking about. No, she's doing great, what are you talking about?
And then when they did, they also kind of celebrated Christmas,
but instead of calling it at Christmas Tree, they called
it a friendship Greece. But it was it was nice
to see all of that. They were really supportive of her,
(32:42):
and I'm like, at least she has some good people
to have her back.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, yeah, they all. She kept apologizing and saying, I
don't you don't have to risk it, don't worry about it,
and they're like, no, we will be there.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
But it it goes back to what I was saying
earlier about, you know, destructive religions or cults in general,
is if you're alone and you're vulnerable, that's how you
get it. They get you, and I think she even
has kind of it felt kind of like an aside,
but it was about her how her dad got involved,
(33:16):
and it was like he lost all of his money,
got sued, got in trouble, and then became a Jehovah's
witness as opposed to how he makes it sound as
though always like which is often the case, often the
case for whatever reason. But yeah, her friends, her friends
were there for her. I could tell there was a
(33:39):
balancing act for her where she was like, especially in
a couple of cases, like her sister's children who are
being raised in this religion, like trying to show there
are other there's more out there than this, but also
not trying to scare them off. And so that was
(34:02):
present throughout. But it was also interesting to see because
at the end you kind of find Rosa in almost
the opposite position. But then she meets someone else and
they become friends and they talk about turning her experience,
at least Rose's experience of organizing, of recruiting of all
that stuff into activism into something else, And as you said,
(34:27):
it's kind of what the author did with the current
work that she does. And it all ends with an
image of what Talia found, and it's fulfillment and education
and work and love, marriage, travel, friends of baby, happiness, sex,
and it's all in these really bright colors. She's really happy,
(34:51):
and then on the bottom it's contrasted with like drab
colors of all she shed after she left, like apocalypse
or creepy man Satan like things like that. So it's
just a really nice the way to end it where
you see all of this stuff she's discovered and all
the stuff she's decided to leave behind.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Right, Yeah, I do have to point out I feel
like one of the because you know, I can't believe
anything happy come on. The one of the sadder parts
is her mom, Yeah, who had gone through so much,
especially because of her dad and losing everything. She lost
her house, she lost like some of our health and like,
(35:35):
but every time she turns, she's like, but it's Jehovah,
Like she cannot let go of that religion to the
point that she again has lost so much and no
one is willing to help her because it's again Jehovah,
and even her like sisters, I've kind of just like
accepted that's her fate and no one's seen a problem
with that. Her mom very much still being like, remember,
(35:58):
I wish you would do all these things, go to meetings,
go find this person, as if like it had worked
out for her, and it had not. It was kind
of made me sad, but she was still taking care
of her mom and trying to take care of her mom,
And I will say that during the wedding, her mom
was the most supportive, which I kind of was shocked by.
I didn't expect that because her dad was so awful. Oh,
but because like she was being like she had been
(36:20):
so submissive and but it was like, keep me far
away from your dad, like that was her one request.
But her mom being really loving and supportive during her wedding.
I was like, Oh, that's sweet, but it's made really
sad for her mom.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
It was sad because again, like her dad, despite multiple
examples of being a total douchebag, gets to continue to
have experience a respect he doesn't deserve and has this
(36:57):
access to this community, while her mom is living in
a retirement home health home and kind of been ignored
and just like yeah, and for her, when you see
her at the wedding and she says, you know, keep
(37:18):
me as far away from as possible, it makes you
think if she never met him. You're seeing her kind
of happy and being so supportive of her daughter. It
is sad because it makes you wonder if she hain't
got married so young because this she was getting pushed
to by people in her life who what what her
(37:39):
life could have been right.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, the hope she's having a better maybe she stepped
away particularly maybe she has because one of the conversation
pieces again about the patriarchy being the head of this religion,
was the fact that women can't really even talk to
the men. They're not really supposed to talk one on
one or ask for her health.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah, again this was based on how she was talking
about what she had gone through. Because also this is
just a reminder even in denominations, and again my church
is a great example, as I talk about that, they
all work differently and some are way more intense than others.
Like I've seen this, there are sex within denominations that
(38:26):
are like WHOA that seems really cult like versus what
other people have experienced. So there's definitely like that those
layers too. So I because I don't know Jehovah's witness personally,
like I don't not being people, but the religion in
itself and it's practices, I've never gone, so I can't
really attest to that. But like in her version, it
(38:47):
definitely seemed like an extreme level in itself. So not
to say that that's all all Jehovah's witnesses we wouldn't
put that as a label, but yeah, I mean to see,
what she has presented is fair called.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Like it is. And I know we keep bringing it
back to this, but we did. Samantha largely did a
twelve part mini series on religious drama. It was a
very long mini series. I do think a lot of religions,
especially in the West, are patriarchal, and that you internalize
(39:23):
that as a child, and it can take a lot
of work to undo so, right, I've seen examples that
I in friends of mine in other religions that had
similarities to this that you know, I experienced patriarchy for sure,
(39:45):
but I saw especially one friend where she would say
something she heard in church just like that sounds so
basically you asked for you were asking for some help,
and they were like, go pray, okay, yeah, which at
(40:06):
a certain levelly I see, but at a certain level also,
I'm like they need maybe more than that, right, And.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I think that goes a conversation of like again, the
blood transfusion and the refusal of other blood in your system,
and because it was it was a huge trial at
one point in time when a parent chose not to
allow that because it was against their religious beliefs. There
was a back and forth like is this neglect? Is
(40:34):
this medical neglect? Should we have a conversation of what
to do? And cases of where children have died because
of this choice. So there's a lot of conversations in
that belief of like if this is God's will, Jehovah's will,
if this is this, we need to pray about this.
And we talked about that context and a little bit
(40:55):
about prayer within religion, and we talked about that specifically
with Christianity on a larger part as in like Protestantism
more so than anything else. And that's a big conversation
of like where is that line and how much authority
does the government have does society have versus the religious
(41:15):
morality of it all. So that is a big underlying conversation.
It is kind it is very scary in itself, and
again like the whole level of marrying young, all these
conversations about the expectancy so that they immediately at a
certain age, whether that's preteen or not, there being seen
as future sexual beings to procreate, like they're already like
(41:41):
trying to set people up. There was that conversation like
so gonna melder Mary an elder she's like eight. Yeah,
Like that was like in that context, like she's young.
I don't think it's eight, but like it's obviously like adolescent,
and so that that fact that the community members they
already seeing that child as as that instead of being
(42:03):
a child.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Right yeah. Yeah, And there's also there's so much to
talk about here because this made me think about vaccines
as well in the whole conversation, because we had to
listener right in and say, my parents kept me from
getting vaccines and like started their whole at their own
(42:24):
organization about why you should get vaccinated unless there's some
real reason not to. But yeah, just that can be
so hard when you grow up within a certain belief
or a certain system to question that. And I imagine
this was quite a difficult graphic novel to us, right yeah,
(42:48):
So we appreciate all the people who who do that
and you know, have dealt with dealt with this and
recommend it. It's it's beautifully illustrated too. It's really really it.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Is really fun. It kind of reminds me of Johnny Bravo, Yes,
you know what.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Talk because it looks amazing that Yeah, yeah, I see
that completely, but it does. It's like it tackles a
lot of it feels kind of like our show almost.
It tackles a lot of like really difficult stuff, but
it's colorful and it's fun, and then it has its
sad moments, but it's it's just it's very vibrant while
(43:35):
giving you a lot of information and also being really honest.
So yes, go check it out. If you have any
thoughts on this, we would love to hear from you.
If you have any resources or suggestions, we would also
love to get that. You can email us stuff and
You mom Stuff at heeartmedia dot com. You can find
us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram
and TikTok at stuff I'll Never Told You. We're also
(43:58):
on YouTube, but we have a t public store and
we have a book wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christine, our executive producer,
and our contributor Joey. Thank you, and thanks to you
for listening. Steffan Never Told You is production of my
Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you
can check out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
reve you listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Stuff'll Ever Tell You production of iHeartRadio,
and welcome to another edition of book Club. Quick content
warning before we get into this, we are going to
talk about controlling religions, patriarchy and religions, bad stuff and religions,
(00:33):
yeast trauma, religious drama, cr past religious drama episodes, and
are episodes on women and cults. Also, this is a
new book. It came out in twenty twenty two, so spoilers.
So yeah, we've been we've been really going in for
the new new material and cults. I don't know, I know,
(00:56):
it's just a thing.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
We're gonna do it now, guess I guess, so I
guess thing.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Fine, it's it's just a thing we're in. That's all right.
So this will probably be a shorter one. It's a
shorter book. Graphic novels, graphic novel, right, yeah, graphic novel.
But you never know, we get to going. It could
go on and on, but today we are talking about
the twenty twenty two graphic novel Cult Girls, written by
Natalie Grant and illustrated by Cassandra Bolin. It focuses on
(01:26):
Talia a young woman who was raised as Jehovah's witness
and with the help of a friend, is fading or
slowly extricating herself from it, and Talia slowly explores parts
of the world she hadn't previously through that traveling, college, work, relationships, motherhood,
all while navigating family and friends that are still j
(01:48):
W's Jehovah's witnesses. Talia's story is specifically based on the
author's own negative experience with Jehovah's witnesses. And note the
author in this story or is focusing on her own time, yes,
but also going back to our Religious Trauma mini series,
there is the potential for this in so many religions
(02:09):
and examples of this in so many religions, So just
to keep that in mind, I did want to read
the opening excerpt that's introducing what this graphic novel is
going to be. Talia and Colt Girls is an inspired
story of my life as a young divorce Californian woman
who've left. The story also covers the inspiring and support
(02:33):
of friends I had along the way, telling how they
were able to find new purposes in their lives, specifically
how they, like myself, dealt with the reality of being raised, married,
and eventually having rejected this particular suppressive religion. It's a
beautiful story filled with hope, romance, female empowerment, and self exploration,
with therapeutic humor throughout the journey. Once you've left a cult,
(02:56):
take it from me, flashbacks remain while the root teens
and doctrines take some more time to break. Cult Girls
can be appreciated by those who have left a similarly
suppressive religion and or had experience with oppressive relationships and
misguided parental control. And then I wanted to include this.
This is at the end first quote from a review
(03:20):
from Trina Robbins. This beautifully illustrated graphic novel pertains to
any cult, nicely and clearly written. It's a good, if
herring story. And then, Cult Girls, based on a true story,
tells the tale of Talia and her friends as they
struggle with growing suspicions that their faith is a patriarchal
religious cult. It's a story of tremendous courage and female
(03:43):
empowerment as Talia and her friends successfully free themselves, told
through a feminist lens with cautionary humor. So one thing
I did find interesting about this is that it's very
as we were talking about this before, it's very informational.
It's got a lot of facts in it. It feels kind
of like a pamphlet, you know. It feels sort of
like the opposite of the religious pamphlet. It's sort of like, hey,
(04:06):
you just got that pamphlet, here's this one. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
I guess it would be hard not to because you
have to understand why what she does is so shocking
and or anti to that religion. So she has to
give you excerpts of like this is part of the law,
and this is part of what they do, and this
is part of the tradition. We kind of talk about
that in our episodes of Our Christian Trauma Religious Trauma,
(04:32):
because I talk about my own experiences and there's a
lot I think I was similar to what I had
explained what happened with us about like the witnesses and
about being called out in the middle of church and
being told you can't be a part of like are
excommunicated essentially, and you're being told you're no longer a member.
But it doesn't go to the point of like where
she talks about like that other people cannot communicate with you,
(04:55):
or they would be seen as also a part of
that world or whatever world they think. The pants stuff,
all of that was very familiar. So even though I
did I have, my religion that I grew up in
was very fearful of the Jehovah's witness. And I'm saying
this in a way of like my religion, my church
that I grew up in hated anything except their own
(05:16):
point of view, so they believed anything else was blasphemous.
So even like I think I said, this Southern Baptist
was like no, as well as like Church of Christ
absolutely not Catholics, Oh my god, you know, like as
Foreman's Ah, Jehovah's witness, like all of those things, but
they try to revere them in a way. So when
we would have friends that would come over that were
(05:36):
Jehovah's witness and I would be told, oh, we can't
invite them to birthday parties, and I was like what
I remember being told this about a friend and being told, Hey,
this is their their beliefs, don't question it, like you know.
So we were told to be respireful, but like at
the same time, my church was like, oh, they're they're
not the Good Church. And this not again, not just
(05:57):
the Jehovah's Witness, I mean like every other religion and
every other belief, even if it's in the same denomination. Nope, nope, no,
not as good as us, which is very familiar to
her story.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yes, yes, And I didn't really write a plot out
for this because it's essentially there's some flashbacks of her
as a child with her family. She has a really fun,
kind of depressing thing at the beginning where she breaks
down the characters with the little bios and it's like
her mom has gone through this abuse, her dad is abusive, right,
(06:34):
her friends who are what they're going through, and so
you do get flashbacks from her childhood, but it's largely
her coming to realize through the help of friends, are
just kind of growing up and going out to the world, yeah,
that this is not a religion that is for her,
(06:56):
and dealing with all of that baggage, because when you
do grow up in religion, it's hard to shake that off.
It's really really, really difficult. And her like seeing these
new things and learning these new things, and throughout is
that fear, as you mentioned, if she gets excommunicated, if
(07:20):
she gets kicked out. Yeah, then the people in her
life who are still Jehovah's witnesses can't talk to her.
That's it. Like, if they still want to stay in
which presumably they do, they do, they can't talk to her,
So that's the end. So she's sort of trying to
push it off for as long as she can, and
(07:43):
then eventually she does. What's it called she gets announced?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I think, Yeah, the story obviously is kind of her
explaining her life. It feels like as she is talking
about how different she is and being and we're gonna
talk about in the plot of the book, she uh
gets into a new relationship and she's like, oh my god,
I'm gonna have to tell them all these things, and
I'm gonna sound like such an odd ball, like he's
gonna be like, what the hell type of thing. It
(08:12):
feels like it is her trying to explain herself in
a comedic form in a graphic novel and trying to
be like, this is who I am, this is why
I am this way, so here you go, which I
think a lot of people would be like, yeah, that's
exactly what I went through as well. On a deeper level,
like she talks about at one point never seen a
rated R movie. So every time he'd be like, have
you watched this? Have you wish She's like, no, I
(08:34):
don't even know what that is. I don't know what
that means. I don't know you like trying to explain
her like this is why I'm so different, let me
show you. And I feel like this was her kind
of ode to herself and others around her, her newfound family,
like this is who I am. Uh so, here you go,
good luck yea, and her like first steps out into
(08:54):
publishing that and revealing herself yes.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yes, because it's kind of broken down like that. It's
kind of broken down like R rated movie travel, like
you know, themes like that, and having a short scene
that demonstrates, oh, this is why I wasn't I'd never
experienced that or I felt like I was being strange
around that or something. And yet so she gets in,
(09:21):
She finds friends that find kind of solace in each other.
Then she finds this relationship, and then eventually she gets
a job, She goes to college, she has a baby,
or she's about to have a baby. She finds out
she's pregnant. But yeah, the plot is essentially her balancing
wanting to keep the people still in religion in her life,
(09:45):
but wanting to also leave that behind and move on
and do these other things. So yeah, with that, oh,
I would say probably one of the biggest themes is
kind of you you're controlling family and your controlling religion
and growing up in that. So in this case, she
(10:06):
would be called a fader. And those are people that
try to fade out of this religion without a formal announcement,
because again, if you get the announcement, that's it. You
can appeal and you can like try to get back in,
but you try to avoid it. And I do think
this is not unique to Jehovah's witnesses. We've talked about
(10:30):
this before, but I do think it was interesting the
sort of understanding that people were all trying to cheat
the system in some way and or like people just
weren't following the rules in private that they were saying
in public right.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Right, And it was obviously like more women than men
that were being being called out, which was funny because
they couldn't talk in the church. Yeah, which is yeah,
that's with a lot of religions. We talked about that before.
The misogyny in religions in general, and this is no
different from almost all westernized religions.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yes, yes, and it is true that this is and
here we're talking about her experience specifically, was a very
intense experience in terms of the ways they try to
keep you in of the like loss of family of
friends if you leave the being isolated. Perhaps this is
(11:33):
like all you know, the only community you know, And
that's something we've talked about before on perhaps not the
same scale, but in a lot of places, being a
part of the church is important, like that is where
you get your community, Where you get your community or
what have you. So to have that just cut off
(11:54):
and have everybody sort of judge you, especially in like
a small town, because there was a lot of scenes
of her like walking around and there'd be people like
whispering behind their hands as she passed, to feel like
you lose that, especially if you're in a vulnerable place.
That's where that's where a lot of cults really work,
(12:14):
is if you're in a vulnerable place, and this is
where you get your community. Also throughout based on that
is she's constantly debating with her family, she's trying to
do it in a way that is like I'll show you,
you know, there's more to life than this, but also
(12:36):
not wanting them to abandon her or isolate her or
freak out. I guess, like trying to manage their feelings
around it, because they always kept coming back to this
religion and it being a constant thing in her life,
(12:57):
and when she would talk to them, when she would
introduce them to like her new boyfriend for instance, and
they're immediately, you've got to get married right now, and
you've got to move in and you've got to become
a jobes witness or else. Right, it's just a lot
to deal with, yes, mm hmmm, Yes, I'm also there
(13:19):
was discussion of being forbidden from associating with members of
the religion if you leave, and public shaming, public shaming.
I feel like we talked about this briefly too, But
in churches when they do the you know, this person
has not been showing up or they've done X, Y
(13:41):
and Z, we should pray for them, like very publicly
within your community probably, Yeah, calling you out and how
that can shame you and keep you in something that
you might not want to be in, right mm hmm.
(14:02):
There is a scene that really illustrates that point. Later
when again she's getting called in by the elders, uh,
who are questioning why she hasn't been to to so
many meetings or what have you, and they're asking her
really really inappropriate sexual questions.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
And they're like a group of older dudes and they're
just asking her of these questions that they feel perfectly
within their right to ask to potentially kick her out.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yep, like you were saying, shame her after the fact
or during the fact. Because there were many incidents in
which the pastor would speak on specific incidents so that
they could whisper about who oh who did that?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Oh was her right?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Which I've seen happen at my own dredge. Yeah, yeah, l.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Speaking of Yike's, another big theme was the apocalypse, right,
which is a big part of a lot of religions. Yes,
but it was throughout kind of this idea of, well,
the apocalypse is going to come, so why should we
care for the land or why should we voach, or
why should we do this? Why should I get good grades?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Like? Yeah, and historically this is not the only religion
that would do this, but they really have specific years.
So the original founders of the Jehovah's Witness thought that
when he started this specific religion and being enlightened to
do this religion, that the end of the world was
gonna be two years later, which is I think it
was like nineteen seventy something in which he was like,
(15:46):
it's about to be the end of the world. So
they often reset, they do, and with that believing that
that will fix everything. So there's nothing to fix. It's
kind of like that predetermination type of thing, predestined so
that it is what it is. So you don't need
to help anyone other than they need to find Jesus
(16:07):
or not Jesus, they need to be a part of
Jehovah's Witness, which is Jesus.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, but I mean we've talked about this before. This
is not unique, as we said to Jehovah's witnesses. But
when you're a kid, that idea of apocalypse and like hell,
it could really mess you up. I can stay with you.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Well, there was one specific drawing where the sister is
so scared for her her sister and she's picturing her
in hell, like she's like, you're so miserable now because
you're falling away from Jehovah that all I can imagine
is you're going to be unhappier because you're going to
be in hell.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah. Yes, And we talked about that in our Religious
Trauma series. I've heard that from people like I'm afraid
you're going to go to Hell, so I'm trying to
help you. Yeah, and I understand. But it's also like, well, yeah,
I guess.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It is what it is, but it's such an odd
context because their apocalypse typically like the idea of good deeds, yes,
is in other religions and not that Jehovah's witness don't.
But their good deed is to go out and do
their work, do their witnessing and giving out pamphlets while
everything else is up to Jehovah. Or this is Jehovah's intent,
(17:33):
whether it is being the dude, what was it. I
think it was the father when he did all those
bad things. He's like, oh, Jehovah handled that. Jehovah.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
That was his like.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Resolve, or being like looking at boobs and being like,
I'm an amazing man and riding the bike. All that
is Jehovah. She's like, but what did you think about science?
Nos Jehovah like all of those in this reference because
in the mind of everything's already paid for and for
me as a man, and since I haven't been called
out by the elders, who are the ultimate authority, I'm fine. Yeah,
(18:05):
and apocalypse will take care of all everything essentially, That's
what I believe.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, oh yeah. She was definitely saying that was the
vibe was why are we even here? The apocalypse will
be better after that, And there was sort of a
like self assured almost shot in Freuda of like, well,
you didn't do what you had to do, so I
will be in paradise and you shall be in hill.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah. They're very number centric, but she talks about math
and she's like, this is not this is not math,
and he's like two plus two does not equal the
U two of you. I did like that reference.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I guess this is a good segue into one of
the biggest themes of the book. The graphic novel is
definitely the patriarchy within religion. There's a quote pretty early
on men are better than women. This is something we
did talk about in our religious trom episodes. I feel
(19:10):
like it comes up often when we speak about religion.
But all the ways that that manifested in her life
and how she witnessed it, and how it had an
impact on her self esteem. And one of those things
she witnessed was religious authorities who can only be men
and get a lot of exceptions to the rules, a
lot of men doing wrong and being forgiven by the organization,
(19:35):
and then a lot of clear sexism and who gets
kicked out and punished, meaning women were much more likely
to get punished, whereas men could be like, well, it's
Jehovah or whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
It's Jehovah. As well as like the skull argument, women's
small heads are smaller and so they are not able
to think as broadly like men who are much more intelligent.
Men are better because of schools. The elder Caleb, who
was her brother in law that pete at everyone that
was a peeping tom that was doing sexually predatory stuff
(20:11):
was an elder. So he was like, no, no, no,
you misunderstood.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yes. Yes. There was a lot of infuriating things about
the elders in this particular case. And then there was
another quote, I could lose my position as an elder
if my wife isn't being submissive, So it's it's also
you have to do you have to be submissive, you
have to do what I tell you. You have to make
(20:36):
me look good, even if I am perhaps a peeping tom. Right,
you are the one that is going to be punished
in this or make me look bad, right, not this
thing that I did. Right, And going back to that
point of what I said earlier, the differences of how
(20:57):
women and men are treated and who was forgiven within
this organization, there were several instances she pointed out of
gay pornography and probably underduraged gay pornography, pedophilia being taught
all worldly men. She do drugs and much porn constantly,
but she has these instances of them doing it.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Right so much so that that's one of the things
that she specializes in real life, like apparently, like she
wrote the fact that she works in helping to stand
up for children who have been victims by religious predators,
like because she's seen she has seen so much of
that She's like, absolutely not. And she even talks about
the fact that the marriage oftentimes are unequaled, young girls
(21:43):
who barely graduated high school if they did, marrying older
men and not really having a choice about it. She
does mention that briefly, but she got lucky and married
a dude that seemed okay but was not compatible with her,
and the gay porno was that big, bright shining light.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yes of like.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Oh, as well as I'm stealing all the money.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah. Yeah, so she did get married. We didn't mention
that she did get married prior to the guy she
meets later, who is one of the worldly men, as
they're called if you're outside of the religion, one of
the worldly men in it. Yeah, it did not go
well for multiple reasons, multiple reasons.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
That will be two reasons.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, that expands. But yes, also, like I said, this
is sort of like a pamphlet. It has a lot
of facts in it. It's very it's a great story,
but a lot of it is got you know, here's this, factors, this, factors,
this fact There's some stuff about homophobia in there, there's
(22:53):
stuff about racism in there, there is stuff about pedophilia
in there, and then there's a lot of discussion around
things like abortion. For here's a quote I uds are abortion.
There's a lot of discussion around sex being sinful and
discussing a source of shame, especially for women.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Oh yeah, yeah, but at the same time as duty, yes,
called it the duties.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yes, especially after well definitely after you're married only I
should say. But yeah. It was something she was really
concerned about because it had been told to her her
whole life, and something she had to grapple with with
her new partner because that was your going to hell
(23:46):
kind of violation. You don't do that right.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
It was also one of those that which again happens
to most religions, that they are told that the father
continuously says, mary him, marry him before you, before you sin,
before you sin, marry him. So that's the solution, like
the easy solution for you to have sexes to be married. Yes, yes,
so for him, I guess the dude rather than the women,
(24:10):
because you know, obviously women have no desire.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
No desire, which does bring us to marriage. That was
a big theme, as you said, pushing children, especially women
to get married early. I'm saying that like you hear
that as a kid, but you weren't like super young
to being pushed to get married, yes, and not being
allowed to have sex before marriage, not being allowed to
(24:35):
move in together before marriage. A lot of gossip around
that and what you might have done being pressured too,
as you said, put out once married, and also kind
of a dowry situation the father definitely later when it's
a worldly man, it's like, I can't afford to fay
(24:55):
for this. She's like, got it, uh.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Right, Well, that's kind of like in the tradition that
the man pays for the or the wife's family pays
for the wedding, which is that tradition instead of like
the goats. That was old school biblical ways in itself.
But yeah, and again as a reminder about the I
feel like I may have talked over you about the
(25:20):
IUD thing, but any birth control was seen as abortion,
Like that needs to be a conversation, and not just IUDs,
but like condoms, any kind of preventative measure is abortion
and against God's will. A lot of like we were
not going to talk about it, but the medical procedures
in general. She talks about the blood transfusion as well,
and we know that Jehovah's witnesses have that work that
they cannot do, that they cannot serve in the military,
(25:42):
they cannot vote, all these things because that is worldly things.
But yes, any kind of preventative birth control immediately know
because that is killing of children, as they would.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Say, yeah, yep. And there's a scene later where after
she has sex with Alan, her new boyfriend, which I
did love that I feel that the orgasm was represented
with fireworks, she realizes she's not on birth control and
(26:15):
freaks out and her friends are like, oh, plan B.
And she didn't know what it was, never heard of it.
She was like plan B for what?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Plan B for what?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
What plan?
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Like? Her friend says that it was very much still
a part of the Mormon just like what other plans
the other plan.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Right, But that does get to another point we're about
to get to about education and how that's controlled as well.
But yeah, divorce is also a big thing and financial
control and abuse around that. So when I was first
reading this, there was a thing that was about the
marriage fantasy, and I thought it was going to be,
(26:54):
you know, like what wedding dress will you get? All
that stuff? No, it was how you fantasize about your
man marriage ending because you have to have a reason, right,
You have to have like a legit reason to get
out of the marriage, because you can't just get divorced.
So people fantasizing about like what if he cheats or
what if he does this, and then I won't be
(27:15):
shamed for not making this word.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
And I think she talks about the two or more witnesses,
which is a biblical context, because again my church that
I went to, which is not Jehovah's witness used that
context as well if you wanted to. They weren't as
nosey as this as authoritative, but you can make it
authoritative so that people would bring up objections. And this
was also a power of control because of a lot
of the times it's people who didn't want to be
(27:40):
divorced because of whatever shame. And this does not include
and I don't see hard talking about it, but I
have a feeling it's as similar to that abuse, like
only reason accilorating to biblical standards. And I talked about
this specifically in our Religious Trauma episode is adultreat But
you have to have witnesses, which talked about it's hard
to prove because typically two people don't know it, right,
(28:04):
which is why men can get away with often right.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah. And also financially, we've talked about that outside of religion,
there's a lot of financial abuse, especially if one person
is controlling the finances. Often men in situations like this,
even if it's not their money, but they're the ones
in control, or maybe just financial literacy, because again the
(28:30):
author does speak to education in this context and having
that being limited about her own experiences being homeschooled. Some
of them are funnier than others. Some of them are like, well, funnier,
but like not knowing how to connect. She has some
awkward situations where she just doesn't know how to socialize.
But I can see it definitely playing out to if
(28:55):
you're getting married so young, many women talk about quitting
their jobs once they get married, dropping out of school,
then it makes sense to me that there would be
issues around money in that relationship and that could keep
you in a really abusive situation. And they were also
(29:18):
really strict rules around for women behaviors media. As you said,
the rated R movies is one food, health relationships, just
like every aspect of your life.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
There were rules, yes, and the men picked out the clothes.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think it.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Again, we're talking about this in the context of like
the graphic novel that she had pointed out, But again,
she also does an amazing job with her friendship and
showing like different levels, yes, of beliefs as well as
her family. So she does a really good job and
being able to show that context of like not everyone
is like this, and everyone has different parts of what
(30:02):
they believe and people who are very cool within the religion.
Her family just wasn't one of them, right, And I.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Do think that's a good point, because she shows examples
of it not being that. I think she's more pointing
out it could be like this, and I saw the
instances of it being like this, right. But that brings
(30:35):
us to our final point when we like so much friends, Yeah, friendship.
So her friend Rosa. Rosa's openness about her experience within
Jehovah's witness helped open Talia's eyes and kind of open
her worlds. They became roommates, and yeah, they just kind
(31:00):
of were really there for each other. And it was
interesting because it felt like a lot of times when
you were reading about the exceptions the men made were
oh he has a role rex he really shouldn't. Oh
he cheated and he's going to be get off scot free.
But for them it was like, let's good to grease.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I love the Christmas segment like I love the first time,
and they all went all out and then they're like,
oh no, my parents are coming and they're hiding, which yes,
again relateab well, not Christmas, but other things that I'm like,
I gotta have this, But the fact that the pope
two of them are together, and even when Talia is
talking about her relationship and Rosa celebrating, but Rosa's like, yeah,
(31:40):
I got you, like just being able to have her
back in most of the situations when the wedding happens.
When so the entire thing is Talia trying to not
get announced before her wedding so that all of her
Jehovah witness friends can attend because they can associate with her,
including her family. So she's just like waiting for that,
(32:00):
but all of her friends are helping her because they're
trying to turn all of her friends against her. The
elders are like I loved each one of them. I'd like,
oh no, we got her back, we got her back.
It was really like, oh, that's really sweet. Even the
one couple who were more involved in the Jehovah's witness
but her friend who was still in a really good marriage,
it looked like they were actually happy and he was
(32:21):
supportive of her instead up for her, but like both
of them were like, yeah, I don't know what you're
talking about. No, she's doing great, what are you talking about?
And then when they did, they also kind of celebrated Christmas,
but instead of calling it at Christmas Tree, they called
it a friendship Greece. But it was it was nice
to see all of that. They were really supportive of her,
(32:42):
and I'm like, at least she has some good people
to have her back.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, yeah, they all. She kept apologizing and saying, I
don't you don't have to risk it, don't worry about it,
and they're like, no, we will be there.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
But it it goes back to what I was saying
earlier about, you know, destructive religions or cults in general,
is if you're alone and you're vulnerable, that's how you
get it. They get you, and I think she even
has kind of it felt kind of like an aside,
but it was about her how her dad got involved,
(33:16):
and it was like he lost all of his money,
got sued, got in trouble, and then became a Jehovah's
witness as opposed to how he makes it sound as
though always like which is often the case, often the
case for whatever reason. But yeah, her friends, her friends
were there for her. I could tell there was a
(33:39):
balancing act for her where she was like, especially in
a couple of cases, like her sister's children who are
being raised in this religion, like trying to show there
are other there's more out there than this, but also
not trying to scare them off. And so that was
(34:02):
present throughout. But it was also interesting to see because
at the end you kind of find Rosa in almost
the opposite position. But then she meets someone else and
they become friends and they talk about turning her experience,
at least Rose's experience of organizing, of recruiting of all
that stuff into activism into something else, And as you said,
(34:27):
it's kind of what the author did with the current
work that she does. And it all ends with an
image of what Talia found, and it's fulfillment and education
and work and love, marriage, travel, friends of baby, happiness, sex,
and it's all in these really bright colors. She's really happy,
(34:51):
and then on the bottom it's contrasted with like drab
colors of all she shed after she left, like apocalypse
or creepy man Satan like things like that. So it's
just a really nice the way to end it where
you see all of this stuff she's discovered and all
the stuff she's decided to leave behind.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Right, Yeah, I do have to point out I feel
like one of the because you know, I can't believe
anything happy come on. The one of the sadder parts
is her mom, Yeah, who had gone through so much,
especially because of her dad and losing everything. She lost
her house, she lost like some of our health and like,
(35:35):
but every time she turns, she's like, but it's Jehovah,
Like she cannot let go of that religion to the
point that she again has lost so much and no
one is willing to help her because it's again Jehovah,
and even her like sisters, I've kind of just like
accepted that's her fate and no one's seen a problem
with that. Her mom very much still being like, remember,
(35:58):
I wish you would do all these things, go to meetings,
go find this person, as if like it had worked
out for her, and it had not. It was kind
of made me sad, but she was still taking care
of her mom and trying to take care of her mom,
And I will say that during the wedding, her mom
was the most supportive, which I kind of was shocked by.
I didn't expect that because her dad was so awful. Oh,
but because like she was being like she had been
(36:20):
so submissive and but it was like, keep me far
away from your dad, like that was her one request.
But her mom being really loving and supportive during her wedding.
I was like, Oh, that's sweet, but it's made really
sad for her mom.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
It was sad because again, like her dad, despite multiple
examples of being a total douchebag, gets to continue to
have experience a respect he doesn't deserve and has this
(36:57):
access to this community, while her mom is living in
a retirement home health home and kind of been ignored
and just like yeah, and for her, when you see
her at the wedding and she says, you know, keep
(37:18):
me as far away from as possible, it makes you
think if she never met him. You're seeing her kind
of happy and being so supportive of her daughter. It
is sad because it makes you wonder if she hain't
got married so young because this she was getting pushed
to by people in her life who what what her
(37:39):
life could have been right.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, the hope she's having a better maybe she stepped
away particularly maybe she has because one of the conversation
pieces again about the patriarchy being the head of this religion,
was the fact that women can't really even talk to
the men. They're not really supposed to talk one on
one or ask for her health.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah, again this was based on how she was talking
about what she had gone through. Because also this is
just a reminder even in denominations, and again my church
is a great example, as I talk about that, they
all work differently and some are way more intense than others.
Like I've seen this, there are sex within denominations that
(38:26):
are like WHOA that seems really cult like versus what
other people have experienced. So there's definitely like that those
layers too. So I because I don't know Jehovah's witness personally,
like I don't not being people, but the religion in
itself and it's practices, I've never gone, so I can't
really attest to that. But like in her version, it
(38:47):
definitely seemed like an extreme level in itself. So not
to say that that's all all Jehovah's witnesses we wouldn't
put that as a label, but yeah, I mean to see,
what she has presented is fair called.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Like it is. And I know we keep bringing it
back to this, but we did. Samantha largely did a
twelve part mini series on religious drama. It was a
very long mini series. I do think a lot of religions,
especially in the West, are patriarchal, and that you internalize
(39:23):
that as a child, and it can take a lot
of work to undo so, right, I've seen examples that
I in friends of mine in other religions that had
similarities to this that you know, I experienced patriarchy for sure,
(39:45):
but I saw especially one friend where she would say
something she heard in church just like that sounds so
basically you asked for you were asking for some help,
and they were like, go pray, okay, yeah, which at
(40:06):
a certain levelly I see, but at a certain level also,
I'm like they need maybe more than that, right, And.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I think that goes a conversation of like again, the
blood transfusion and the refusal of other blood in your system,
and because it was it was a huge trial at
one point in time when a parent chose not to
allow that because it was against their religious beliefs. There
was a back and forth like is this neglect? Is
(40:34):
this medical neglect? Should we have a conversation of what
to do? And cases of where children have died because
of this choice. So there's a lot of conversations in
that belief of like if this is God's will, Jehovah's will,
if this is this, we need to pray about this.
And we talked about that context and a little bit
(40:55):
about prayer within religion, and we talked about that specifically
with Christianity on a larger part as in like Protestantism
more so than anything else. And that's a big conversation
of like where is that line and how much authority
does the government have does society have versus the religious
(41:15):
morality of it all. So that is a big underlying conversation.
It is kind it is very scary in itself, and
again like the whole level of marrying young, all these
conversations about the expectancy so that they immediately at a
certain age, whether that's preteen or not, there being seen
as future sexual beings to procreate, like they're already like
(41:41):
trying to set people up. There was that conversation like
so gonna melder Mary an elder she's like eight. Yeah,
Like that was like in that context, like she's young.
I don't think it's eight, but like it's obviously like adolescent,
and so that that fact that the community members they
already seeing that child as as that instead of being
(42:03):
a child.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Right yeah. Yeah, And there's also there's so much to
talk about here because this made me think about vaccines
as well in the whole conversation, because we had to
listener right in and say, my parents kept me from
getting vaccines and like started their whole at their own
(42:24):
organization about why you should get vaccinated unless there's some
real reason not to. But yeah, just that can be
so hard when you grow up within a certain belief
or a certain system to question that. And I imagine
this was quite a difficult graphic novel to us, right yeah,
(42:48):
So we appreciate all the people who who do that
and you know, have dealt with dealt with this and
recommend it. It's it's beautifully illustrated too. It's really really it.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Is really fun. It kind of reminds me of Johnny Bravo, Yes,
you know what.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Talk because it looks amazing that Yeah, yeah, I see
that completely, but it does. It's like it tackles a
lot of it feels kind of like our show almost.
It tackles a lot of like really difficult stuff, but
it's colorful and it's fun, and then it has its
sad moments, but it's it's just it's very vibrant while
(43:35):
giving you a lot of information and also being really honest.
So yes, go check it out. If you have any
thoughts on this, we would love to hear from you.
If you have any resources or suggestions, we would also
love to get that. You can email us stuff and
You mom Stuff at heeartmedia dot com. You can find
us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram
and TikTok at stuff I'll Never Told You. We're also
(43:58):
on YouTube, but we have a t public store and
we have a book wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christine, our executive producer,
and our contributor Joey. Thank you, and thanks to you
for listening. Steffan Never Told You is production of my
Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you
can check out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
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