May 18, 2023 • 48 mins
How does Western Christianity impact views on divorce, especially for women? We dig into some numbers, theories and examples.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Andy and Samantha, and welcome to Stephane
Never told your production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And welcome to our series on Christianity. We're just gonna
leave it at that. We are now on part six
of Christianity, Religious Trauma and the Marginalized Community aka Western
Christianity and how it affects the Marginalized People, and so
many more titles that I've given it at this point.
(00:38):
But yeah, the series just keeps growing. Every time I
think I'm going to be talking about two or three
things in a series, it ends up being just one thing.
And that's where we are today once again. But before
we start, there is content warning. We are talking about
religious trauma, sickness, domestic violence, and divorce. I don't know,
divorce can be a sticky subject, especially if you're going
through one or you're going through bad parts in your
(00:59):
marriage and you don't want to hear about it. We're
talking all about divorce today, So go ahead and skip
this one, just so you know. And as a quick review, Annie,
because I know I've been stringing you along in this
entire series. As I'm like, hey, we'll do this is
another day or longer than I thought let's just do
this quick review. We've talked about women in Western Christian
(01:20):
communities and traditions, religious trauma, which is you know, present
all throughout, the misogyny that heavily influences this culture, the
toxicity of purity culture, which also seems to be a
whole topic in every single one of our episodes, sexual
abuse in Southern Baptist Convention, Courting marriage and motherhood, which
(01:42):
was a fun one. And today we are continuing down
that look of relationships, I guess, with a look at
Western Christianity and divorce. And right now we are going
to talk pretty in depth about divorce. Some of it
doesn't really have to do with religion. We're just kind
of talking about so the process and some of the
conversations and statistics. This is mainly applied to the United States,
(02:06):
because I know, and we want to come back because
we had a fun conversation, and I say fun in
that we were both like, huh, I wonder what this is?
What this is about? How to get a divorce?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, because I didn't know that there were all these
stipulations that you can't just get a divorce.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Well, so we're going to talk about the no fault
divorce in a minute. Apparently there's other things that have
been put in place for a while, but it's about
how people can test things and how it gets messy.
So and different states have different rules and different belief systems,
and different kind of communities in denominations also have their
own rules. Yeah, but all of that, and then different
(02:44):
countries have their own rules as well. So we're centering
this around the United States. And yes, eventually it does
come back to how Christianity handles divorce as well, so
I promise this all applies. So before we start, I
(03:05):
kind of wanted to talk about my personal experience about
divorce in my church that I grew up with, because
this is a very personal subject growing up very religious
and coming out of religion as I knew it. And
I've seen the emails that y'all have been sending about this.
Thank you so much. I know people have been connecting
with what I've been saying, as well as people who
(03:26):
are still involved in the church and finding their own path,
and it's beautiful. Thank you for those messages. But yeah,
I kind of want to talk about what I experienced,
and again, my church is a little different. It's not
big and that is part of the Southern Baptist Convention.
It's not a part of the Presbyterian Churches. It's not
a part of any of those denominations. It kind of
has an independent feel about it and it's very local.
(03:48):
So this experience can be unique in that way. But
I feel like overall, especially when it comes to old
school way of thinking and when we talk about the
traveling preachers and all of that, this is kind of
that circuit that this is the influence that fell onto
my community, like that that hell five brimstone level. So,
growing up in a small town in Georgia, the word
(04:10):
divorce had so many implications. It was a sin, and
I'm gonna put a capital s sin. Divorce was not
only a personal failure, but a moral failure and a
failure on your family, one that had to be answered
in front of the church. Dixie Church, though in my experience,
the members did not necessarily have to get permission from
(04:31):
the church, but oftentimes had to go after the fact
to face the deacons or leaders, typically men of the church,
and if they are not satisfied with the answer, you
would be reprimended and oftentimes expelled from that church. So
your membership would be done, and I don't As a kid,
when I heard membership your name was in the book,
I thought it was a literal thing. I don't think
it is. I don't know, but that's how. That's how
(04:54):
I pictured this, because I will say when I was
quote unquote saved became a member, I didn't sign anything,
so I don't know how that happened. I did say
I wanted to be a part of this church in
front of the members. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I don't know. I bet churches do that differently. I
feel like my church had like a book of memberships.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yea, there may be one. I really don't know, but
I'm like, I don't And then they had to take letters,
like if they wanted to go to a different church,
they had to take their letter. And I was like,
is that physical? Is that a physical thing? And I've
never personally seen it though, so I don't know it's
the whole thing, but yeah, the level of shame placed
(05:36):
on people getting divorced is overwhelming. The way they looked
down on divorce and even in pragice, the outside of
marriage and God forbid abortion was extreme. Having an affair
or even even abusing a spouse was less shameful, mostly
justifying it as a quote mistake. Even again, we talked
(05:57):
about it with people hiding sexual abuse within the church,
hiding all of those things and being like they made
a mistake of rewording it. They send against their marriage
instead of being no, you raped somebody, that's that's bad.
But I will say maybe murder would be considered on
that level, but only if that murder was not justified
(06:19):
for a holy reason, and sometimes even excusing husbands who
killed their wives. Recent articles written about the man who
killed his entire family had so many excerpts talking about
how godly he was and how attentive he was to
his church, his family, his mom and dad, siblings made
sure that his obituary and messages from acquaintances only acknowledged
(06:42):
how godly and christian like he was, even having the
audacity to say he loved his murdered family and fought
to keep them together, never admitting to his abusive and
overall deadly treatment of them. It was horrifying, and if
I remember correctly, his church supported that statement. Oh yeah, wow, yeah.
(07:04):
And then you look at murders like the Atlantis spallshootings
and murders of so many quick people that have often
been praised by extremist conservatives and Christian nationalists. Again, we're
talking about recently, any of the Black Lives Matter protest
murders that have happened, whether it's I don't even want
to talk about him, Kyle was his face. I don't
(07:25):
want to acknowledge him, or people like that. The dude
in Texas who used his vehicle to hurt people, they've
been praising him instead of acknowledging, Hey, this is bad.
Why are you condoning this? Yeah, so it isn't shocking
that morality is judged harsher than actual murder and abuse.
But that's a different episode. I was going to talk
(07:45):
about it in this episode, but I didn't have time.
We don't have time for that, so that's gonna be
a whole different conversation. Yeah, And my parents have been
together for over fifty years now, and I've mentioned it
before that they were really happily married. I think they
really the harshest storms together. They've beat the odds and
I'm pretty sure they'll die together. And I don't mean
(08:07):
like they're they're gonna make a pact or anything like
if one goes, the other one is gonna follow soon after,
and that's like, that's the happiest thing I could think
for them, so they don't have to be without each other.
But my siblings are a whole different story, and I'm
not gonna get too into their stuff, but I will
say each one went through their own messy divorce with
an unhealthy dose of guilt, but each would say they're
(08:28):
happier and don't regret their decisions. I think our church
was shocked and a lot of judgment was passed. It
was a rocky time for our family. The amount of
people who have known us all of our lives, have
seen us grow up in that church, who actually turn
their backs on our family was astounding. It was and
I was young. I was I guess it was middle
(08:50):
school when things were happening, and to see that reaction
from somewhere that I thought I was loved was a
chocking moment, so much so that we didn't talk to
those people, and we still don't talk to those people
till this day. It's been more than a decade since
these incidents. More has probably longer. It's been a long
long time, probably twenty years for some of these things
(09:11):
I don't know, and it caused a huge divide in
our church community. They took size and made sure you
knew which side they were on. If they didn't take
a side, it was because they felt sorry for us,
but didn't want to say it to our face, because
they didn't want the other people who were judging us
to feel like they were taking side. So it was really, really,
really interesting. It was bitter, and it was gross, and
(09:35):
it was very unforgiving, and it didn't matter the reason.
It didn't matter what the justification was. It was divorced
and that was bad. And my family wasn't the only
one that went through this. Any divorced individual felt that
really harsh thing of judgment that many of the elders
felt justified in passing and may even call them out
during sermons. Many of these people fled from the church,
(09:58):
feeling unwelcomed in ex community and isolated themselves away from
any of the people of that church, literally hid away
from some of the members. But instead of being angry
at the people who felt that they had to the
authority to shame anyone and everyone, they just felt guilty
and felt like they deserved this and for so many
felt like this ruined their lives. I will my family
(10:18):
again are at the end of like understanding what they
had to do. They had to do and they can't
change people's minds. But so many others let this ruin
their lives. And I'm not exaggerating. They wouldn't even come
to the parking lot of the church because they felt
that ashamed, and if they did, they made sure to
stay in the car and have the windows rolled up
so no one would see them. And I know many
(10:41):
have felt a shame and judgment and it's old fashioned
those the times have changed, the traditions and moral judgments
still remain. Like I said, we don't talk to these people.
So with that bitterness in mind, who I will say.
I think it's a partial reason why I'm not married
and I don't care about men age because I've seen
what people do in this level of like I can
(11:04):
judge you if they go wrong. But right, so we're
going to talk about it, and we're going to talk
about it. Is I given all the personal accounts in
a more statistical way? First?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yes, yes, okay, So when it comes to divorce, the
statistics do you vary? Although most of us have heard
that almost fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. But
when it comes to what the numbers are really and
what are the numbers when it comes to gender and
to religion, specifically to Western Christianity, that's a bit harder
(11:39):
to pin down too.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Just recently, Forbes published an article titled Revealing Divorced Statistics
in twenty twenty three, and we wanted to share some
of the findings that they reported. The half of the
marriages ending in divorce statistic actually only applies to first marriages,
but for those who maybe in their second or third marriage,
which is the highest divorce rate around to seventy three percent,
(12:02):
they're more likely to get divorced. The average length of
a marriage before divorce is eight years.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
However, the divorce rates have gone down over the years,
with the exception of a small spike during lockdown and
the initial pandemic, but so have the rates of marriage.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Right, But again, who is getting divorced? It looks like
people who have friends that are divorced are more likely
to get divorced. You're gonna get influenced. O't be streaming
whatever for me again, I just don't get married. The
remarrying thing is a factor. More boomers are getting divorced,
with an increase of forty six percent divorce rate for
(12:42):
ages fifty five to sixty four, which I found interesting.
But the average age of people getting divorced is forty
six for men and forty four for women. So I'm
not gonna prime again because I'm not married. I guess
people with high school education are less are more likely
to get divorced as well. So why are they getting divorced?
The number one reason is lack of commitment, followed by
(13:04):
infidelity and affairs, And again, the final straw is often
something specific like domestic violence, affairs, and substance abuse. But
the article also writes, quote interestingly, couples often disagree on
what the final straw was that led to the end
of their marriage. In fact, not a single couple reported
(13:25):
the same deciding issue as the ultimate reason for the
end of their marriage, which I think says a lot
to the communication part. Yes, I think it does as well.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
One other interesting statistic before we talk about the religious portion,
women are far more likely to initiate the divorce. According
to that Forbes report, sixty nine percent of divorces are
initiated by women, and if you break it down specifically,
the report stated that seven out of ten dissolutions are
initiated by women, and this is based on heterosexual relationships.
(13:59):
But there's a lot of conversations recently on why women
are leaving. In a twenty twenty two BBC article titled
why women file for divorce more than men, they talk
about different factors as to why women are leaving and
here are some of the reasons. Being able to be independent.
Unlike the old traditional ways of men being breadwinners, women
are more educated and more successful in their careers and
(14:22):
have become more ambitious. As the article says, quote, women's
entry into the workforce enabled them to leave unhappy marriages
for the first time. They were no longer financially bound
to remain in abusive partnerships or relationships where their needs
were not being met, and women thus began to initiate
divorces at greater scale. And it goes on quote This
(14:42):
also helps explain why women with university level education are
so much more likely to end a marriage across cultures
and geographies. Women who are economically able to take care
of themselves, which usually is tied to higher education levels
are more likely to initiate divorce than women who are
unable to economically sustain themselves and their children, as Heidi
car a psychologist and expert on domestic violence at the
(15:05):
US based Education Development Center right.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And on top of that, there are also emotional factors
between the social construction of women being more of the
emotional caregivers as well as being more socially constructed to
be emotionally intelligent. Women typically have higher expectations than what
is being met emotionally by the husbands, and again we
are talking heteronormative relationships and standards. Here's a long quote
(15:28):
from the BBC article. For many women, the expectations they
have when they intermarriage may fail to match up to reality.
Experts say they often have a higher expectation of how
a partner will meet their emotional needs than men, which
can lead to disappointment post wedding. Gliza fort Martinez, specialists
in conflict resolutions, says because men are usually socialized to
(15:49):
have lower emotional intelligence than women, this can lead to
female partners feeling unsupported and doing much of the emotional
labor in the relationship, which also means women are more Finally,
attuned to problems in relationship red flags, and their tendency
to be the primary communicators and empathizers means that they
may also be the first to raise issues, perhaps ultimately
(16:11):
resulting in separation or divorce. Women also tend to gain
fewer emotional benefits from marriage, which could make single life
seem more appealing. While married men experience multiple perks, including
living longer and earning more money, women don't usually benefit
from their relationships in the same way. Instead, they bear
the brunch of household and child rearing labor, which can
(16:33):
leave working women quote overwhelmed in stress as fort Martinez.
So in another article written specifically from a diverse law firm,
the Women as Law Firm, they talk about the factor
of men not paying attention to their own mental health needs,
which often leaves the wives taking on more emotional responsibility.
So here's a quote from their article. By not taking
care of their own mental health or working on their
(16:55):
communication skills, women find themselves taking on more emotional responsibility. Occasionally,
they end up being the only emotional support for the
entire family without the assistance of their partner. This emotional
burden takes its toll on women. They often feel alone
and as they have no support system within their marriage,
the mental, physical, and emotional toll of that overburdening responsibility
(17:17):
is a major contributing factor when women are considering divorce.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Then there's also the social factor. One thing we've seen
in heterosexual relationships a lot is that men do not
have many close friends.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
We've talked about that before.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
It is more likely that women continue and maintain close friendships.
Another quote from that BBC article said women quote have
a better support system both to discuss any marital issues
as well as to ease the transition back into single life.
It's also possible these friendships make divorce seem like a
more plausible option. Research suggests that if a close friend
(17:53):
gets divorced, people's own chances of divorcing rise by seventy
five percent.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
The influencing there.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
There you go, and one of the other reasons why
women may be initiating the Great divorce is just simply
for a resolution. The BBC article rights, filing for divorce
isn't the same as ending a marriage. While research shows
women in heterosexual marriages are more likely to initiate the breakup,
(18:21):
there are also women who didn't choose in their relationship
but want our need to formalize the split. Nonetheless, quote,
women tend to be more motivated than men to resolve
their marital status, says Katie Spooner, partner and head of
family law at Winkworth Sherwood, London. She says, based on
her client record, most men are happy to remain separated
unless there is a new relationship or particular imperative to
(18:43):
sort their finances.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
There is a reason where men may be one to
file for divorce instead of women, and that's because of illness.
One of the first things that pop up when we
research divorce in marriages has been articles on men leaving
women due to illness. In fact, when I put in
Google men divorce, it automatically auto filled with sick wives,
(19:18):
which made me very angry. This is even being talked
about on TikTok. I've seen this often and it hurts me.
It hurts my feelings. So what's happening? So in a
two thousand and nine Ruters article titled men more likely
than women to leave a partner with cancer, they write
women are six times more likely to end up separated
(19:39):
or divorced if they are diagnosed with cancer or multiple sclerosis,
then if their male partners were facing the same illness,
and this is according to a US study. The study
confirmed earlier research of a divorce or separation rate among
cancer patients of eleven point six percent, similar to the
general population, but found the rate jumped to twenty point
eight percent when the women was sick versus two point
(19:59):
nine percent when the man was ill.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
And apparently, fourteen years later, that hasn't changed. In another
article written for today dot Com, men are more likely
to lead their wives if sickness is involved. Here's the
quote from that article. They decided to do a study
after noticing divorce appeared to occur almost exclusively when the
wife is the disease afflicted partner. The phenomenon was called
partner abandonment and Patients with serious medical illness. The results
(20:25):
were based on five hundred and fifteen patients at three
medical centers who had a brain tumor, cancer or multiple
sclerosis and were married at the time of diagnosis. About
half were women. When the patients were followed for four
to five years to see if their marital status change,
it turned out the woman was the affected spouse in
almost ninety percent of separations. With the female gender found
(20:46):
to be the strongest predicator of separation or divorce. And
in that article, the author of the study explains men
may be very well equipped to be primary providers, but
not so well equipped to be primary caregivers. Doctor Mark Chamberlaine,
the study co author, told Today, I think men are
challenged in caring for someone who has disease and treatment
related symptoms, managing the stress, managing the logistics right.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
And there are many articles writing about the level of
unpreparedness of men becoming caretakers and taking on any type
of household responsibility. So here's a quote from a Guardian article. Tomer,
a sociologist from the University of Alabama who studies how
gender affects couples when a partner gets sick, says, in
most couples, people understand they will need to support their
partner if they get sick. But she says men and
(21:34):
women interpret what caregiving looks like very differently. Men tend
to view the partner getting sick in almost a mechanical way.
They see it as a problem to be solved. They
can separate out the obvious and immediate physical tasks that
result from the illness but other caregiving requirements are left unconsidered,
such as emotional care or housework, which I feel like
that's physical but okay. This means that a lot of
(21:55):
the time women continue to do that work, and when
they don't, problems.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Can rise and they continue. Talking about a study completed
in Germany Quote twenty eighteen, Researchers in Germany used a
nationally representative sample to show that as long as they
are still able to, women continue to do an uneven
amount of the housework while they are sick. If that
was the dynamic in their relationship before they became unwell,
particularly with more mild conditions, the expectation is that the
(22:21):
status quo will go on unless it gets so extreme
that the wife really can't do the work, says Tomer.
The flip side of this is that relationships tend to
function well when the woman gets sick and requires intensive
care from her partner, but in cases where caregiving is
not necessitated, men tend to downplay a woman's symptoms and
classer is largely self sufficient, expecting her to ask for
help rather than proactively giving it. Communication fails even in sickness,
(22:44):
but many of the reports are worse. They give examples
of women who are expected to continue with daily chores
even in pain or immediately after surgery, and if the
routines are disrupted for too long, the household falls apart,
and this includes sexual activity. Women discussed how they would
take painkillers in order to not upset their spouses. When
it came to sexual expectations.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah, it was pretty explicit. I was like, wow, okay,
I don't know. I hate all of this for you.
Of course, we've already talked about how sex and marriages
are expected and automated, but whatever. And on that note,
we're going to talk a little bit about the statistics
when it comes to Christianity and divorce. So some of
(23:27):
the forces are saying Christians are getting to divorce more
than any other religion. Is that true? That's the question,
and the answer is simple yes, But there are several
factors to that statistic. The broad term of Christianity can
be misleading. According to the Pew Research Center study, Evangelical
Protestants had fourteen percent divorce rate, while historical Black Protestants
(23:48):
had a nineteen percent. Mainline Protestants a twelve percent divorce percentage,
and they were among the highest of the divorce rates,
which in that same study included the Hinduism, Buddhists, and
muslim and other religions. But when you put them all together,
that's a big chunk of Protestants. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And another report showed that at least twenty five percent
of Christians have gone through divorce, and the numbers are
pretty studied today. Here's a quote from an older article
on divorce statistics between Christians and quote non believers. According
to the survey by the Barner Group, which is an
organization that focus on research on the intersection of faith
and culture, thirty percent of atheists and agnostics had been
(24:27):
married and subsequently divorced. But the Barner Group pointed out
that they have lower rates of marriage sixty five percent,
and a higher likelihood of cohabitation. Barnara also stated in
a two thousand and four survey that one can understand
why atheists and agnostics might have a higher rate of divorce,
since they are less likely to believe in concepts such
as sin, absolute moral truth, and judgment. Yet the survey
(24:49):
found that the percentage of atheists and agnostics who have
been married and divorce is thirty percent, still less than
the numbers for the born again population of thirty three percent.
So why is this happening?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, so we have I have several reasons according to
conservative Christians. Now, everything we're saying is coming from Christian articles. Again,
my algorithm is real messed up, real messed up. But
I did find it interesting and I can't wait to
not be on this algorithm. Women are falling under the
trap of feminism. The idea of independence and being able
(25:22):
to leave without justification not cool. Also, a big common
factor in conservative Christian blogs is the refusal to acknowledge
gender as the binary aspect. So they really don't like
any of this conversation we're having today. When feminism confuses
the role of gender again, not us, not Anie, and
I are saying this. This is again from this article.
(25:43):
Then family and marriage roles fall apart. Here's advice from
an article from The Federalist, and I really hated that
I clicked on this quote. Successful relationships depend on men
being men and women being women. Every fiber of a
woman's being calls out for a man with whom she
can feel physically and emotionally safe, and money is part
of that equation. Yes, women now earn their own money
(26:06):
and that it is not going to change, But what
can change is our attitude and approach to love. What
men and women look for in a relationship and what
they need from each other within that relationship is not
the same. Being malleable with gender role is great, but
ignoring biology is not. After all these years, women still
want security and men still want to provide that security.
(26:29):
The more of a relationship moves away from this reality,
the more it will struggle. The more a relationship moves
toward it, the more successful it will be, which is
again ironic according to the statistics we just read.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Mm also hello from nineteen fifties, and yes, this article.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Is written in twenty two and in other articles giving
advice to men about how to restore their marriage or
keep their wives, they often tell men to be authoritative
but with submissive cards, which is not necessarily wrong.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Think of it as disciplining a child and trying not
to push the child away, but gently nudging them to
the answer you want them to give. Does it seem condescending?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yes, I think.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Here's a snippet from one article called an Epidemic of
Christian Wives divorcing. Quote For the majority of these men,
nothing seems to work. They try being loving and affectionate,
just to be rejected. They try devotions and prayer together
and she has some excuse why she can't do it.
They call her out on her sins and she gets
more and more angry and bitter. Some have tried it all,
(27:40):
from being submissed themselves for a month to their wives
to prove it's not so hard, then to becoming a
man of the manosphere and taking leadership whether they have
a follower or not. Nothing they try seems to work,
and often the wife will confess in her less angry moments,
I know I am the problem, but I don't know
how to stop it. One would think that just saying
(28:00):
that would be a big breakthrough, as the awareness that
I am the problem should in a healthy mind begin
to seek solutions to unhealthy behaviors, but in many cases,
the final results are Christian wives walking away from their
marriages and epidemic numbers because they are seeking relief from
the pain that they themselves are causing. And it's not
over yet. The block keeps going, saying perhaps the root
(28:24):
cause is a desire for control, as the feminist lies
are now planted firmly in most of the young Christian
wives hearts. No longer do they go into a marriage
with an attitude that believes love is sacrificial giving of
oneself to another, but rather love is now a two
way street that says, I cannot love you if I
do not feel I am getting from you what I
believe I need.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I just.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
I want to take a minute out of this article.
In that same article, they never talk about why the
women are leaving. They just say because they refuse to
work on the marriage. Right, So what I say is
generalized to specific cases. They don't even give examples of
why the women are unhappy. This blew my mind. I
was like, why, really, women want a two way street? Wait?
(29:10):
What that's a bad thing instead of sacrificing herself. But
you know whatever, whatnot? And by the way, the article
was a man who supposedly his wife gets the thumbs
up to this article saying yes, exactly exactly right, which
is what you're supposed to do with a wife, right.
Oh wow, damn feminism, damn feminism. And yet, if you're
(29:30):
confused about the evils of feminism, here's a quote from
thegirldefined dot com. Which thing we talked about their site before.
At its route, feminism is built upon a foundation completely
devoid of God. The feminist movement is woven with the
same sin Satan committed in the beginning, a rebellious heart
that pridefully says, I don't need you God, thanks, but
(29:52):
I'll do it things my way. I'm so good at acting.
And they continue saying. The average American will agree that
most strongly stand for the following a woman's right to
abort murder her unborn baby, lesbianism, and the right for
women to marry women, complete liberation from sexual boundaries and morals,
freedom from traditional gender roles in marriage, rejection of God
(30:16):
as the ultimate authority in life. You know, outside of
the wording and the fairmong greed, they're not completely wrong.
I do feel like a woman should be able to
wear marry a woman if they're in love. I do
feel like, you know, liberating from sexual boundaries of saying
that we have to be here for men's pleasure is
not a bad thing. And yeah, traditional gender roles suck
(30:39):
and that's why people are getting divorced. But okay, whatever whatever, Sure, sure,
but I will say for that last bit, I know
a lot of Christian feminists who would disagree with this completely.
But again, there is binary thinking when it comes to
this specific line of don't ever leave people divorces.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Right and according to another blog titled why feminism wants
to dismantle the family quote Like many isms before it, communism, religions, cults,
feminism seeks to dismantle the traditional family unit for its
own gain. Why to the ism, old loyalties are like
bad habits, interfering with an individual's ability to pledge unwaiving allegiance.
(31:22):
Isms want control, but families tend to put family members
and their needs before the demands of the ism, reducing
the ISM's power and influence and therefore undermining its control.
Mm I love how they put religions in there.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
I know, I don't like occultism. Does that work? I'm
a little too literal, I think. Okay, And if y'all
want to read this glorious article yourself, let us know.
But the author of this blog cites several anti feminist
articles and books, including from the Flip Side of Feminism,
where they use this quote from it quote. Feminists realize
(32:02):
all too well that they can never achieve a level
playing field in the marketplace as long as their male
competitors have the advantage of homemaker wives. Women on the
left know that in order to get ahead more easily,
they must deprive men of their advantage in having stay
at home. Wise, the desire to eliminate the full time
homemaker has been a feminist's goal all along. The need
(32:23):
for a second income was never the goal, which I
find hilarious. They give a lot of credit to women
who just want to be able to sustain just in case.
Like at the at the beginning, it was more of like, oh,
I don't want to be abused and treated as a
servant anymore to their under my marriage, and this is
(32:46):
the goal to the entire time, Like oh, okay, a
playbook here.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I know.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
The author from the same blog expands on this idea,
saying quote, so feminism has made some progress over the
last several decades. If you look at the poorest and
least socially mobile areas in America, you will notice one
variable consistently lacking fathers, more specifically, mothers who are married
to the father of their children. Over the last few decades,
(33:17):
the birth rate for unmarried women in the US has
risen steadily from eighteen percent in nineteen eighty to forty
one percent and twenty twelve. Alarmingly, the majority of moms
believe that absent or uninvolved dads can easily be replaced
themselves or another man, despite the evidence that stable marriages
lead to happy, healthy and motivated kids, which leads to
(33:37):
stronger communities, more opportunities, and greater equality.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I find it again quite funny that whole last line
is obviously an opinion.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, okay, right, also very kind of funnily worded way,
But yeah, sure, we've.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Definitely heard that argument before.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
The blog talks more about the perils of feminism in
regards to motherhood, politics, and marriage, but I think we
got we got that covered for now. An interesting theory
she brings, and so many other articles bring, is the
idea that things like divorce and child support are too
easy to access and that encourages more women to leave
their husbands right.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Recently, the topic of no fault divorce has been trending.
Right wing conservative Stephen Crowder has been lamenting, and I
mean just whining, his current marital status, which is now
no longer a thing. He told his audience about his
recent divorce, quote, No, this was not my choice. My
then wife decided that she didn't want to be married anymore,
and in the state of Texas that is completely permitted.
(34:46):
This was, by the way, an accusation, not just a statement.
Here's what a no fault divorce is. It allows a
couple to divorce without blame or fault. It is often
the simplest path and divorce available in a state, and
it exists in all fifty and DC according to legal
zoom dot com. And it explains further. No fault divorce
allows one spouse to file for divorce without blaming the
(35:08):
other or indicating that it was either spouse's fault. The
terminology differs with each state's no fault divorce laws, but
to obtain a no fault divorce, the spouse who files
simply needs to state that there has been irreconcilable differences
or incompatibility. And in some states, living apart for a
specific period of time can be the reason for a
no fault divorce. And I've heard that before just being
(35:30):
separated is enough. And conservatives are not a fan and
are wanting to end no fault divorce. And when we
say conservatives, I'm talking about political figureheads. In a recent
Rolling Stone magazine article, They write, but Republicans across the
country are now reconsidering no fault divorce. There isn't a
huge mystery behind the campaign, like the crusades against abortion
(35:52):
and contraception. Making it more difficult to leave an unhappy
marriage is about control. Crowder's home state could be the
first to eliminate it if the Texas is his way.
Last year, the Republican Party of Texas added language to
its platform calling for an end to no fault divorce.
In it, they said, we are the legislators to rescind
unilateral no fault divorce laws, to support covenant marriage, and
(36:15):
to pass legislation extending the period of time in which
a divorce may occur to six months after the date
of filing for divorce. And this is what we were
talking about, how to file for divorces because it does
a lot of stakes. Do have this type of stipulation. Yeah,
but it's interest in the wording covenant marriage.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, very interesting, and of course other conservative states are
following suit. Here's another quote from that article. It's not
just Texas. A similar proposals presently being workshopped by the
Republican Party of Louisiana. The Nebraska GOP has affirmed its
beliefs that no fault divorce should only be accessible to
couples without children. At the Republican National Convention in twenty sixteen,
(36:54):
the last time the party platform was overhauled, delegates considered
adding language declaring quote children are made to be by
both natural parents united in marriage. Legal structures such as
no fault divorce, which divides families and in powers of state,
should be replaced by a fault based divorced It's unclear
whether the party's twice divorced nominee for president, Wade in
(37:14):
on the debate at that time.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Right, I feel like this is going to hurt a
lot of politicians, and this is going to hurt a
lot of conservatives. Again, as we heard that the rates
of divorce and Christianity is higher, it makes you question.
And also I feel like less people are gonna get
married and have children, which is the opposite of what
Christian nationalists want. But you know, whatever, right, right, right, right,
And yes, no surprise.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Just as they said in the article, this is a
large conversation on control and loss of autonomy. In an
older article about no fault divorce, They write that things
like no fault divorce is an attacked the sanctity of marriage,
even more so than gay marriage, and is another strategy
by feminists. Ah here's a couple of quotes from this
two thousand and five article. The most forthright marriage advocates
(37:58):
recognize that, as Michael mccannis of Marriage Savers' Rights, divorce
is far more grievous blow to marriage than today's challenge
by gaze. Predictably, this fact has been seized upon by
advocates of same sex marriage. The weakening of marriage has
been heterosexuals doing, not gays, for it is their infidelity,
divorce rates, and single parent families that have wrought social damage,
(38:20):
opines the Economist. This distinction ignores the fact that the
two problems are closely connected. Gay marriage would probably not
be an issue in the first place if marriage had
not already been weakened by divorce. Interesting, and according to
the same article, divorce is a part of the feminist strategy.
They write today feminist operatives employ similar strategies to encourage
(38:43):
divorce worldwide, often inserting it unnoticed and unopposed into programs
for human rights and unilateral Divorce is now one of
the first measures implemented by leftist governments.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
In two thousand and five, wasn't it Bush? Yeah? I
think yeah, anyway, yeah yeah, so again feminist operatives. Yeah,
that's usastly badass. I'm not gonna lie. And if feminism
(39:16):
is a strategic plant to destroy families, then obviously Christian
conservatives must combat the way they know how through fear
and jame. For example, what happens when a woman in
unhappy marriage is desperate for the next steps. Well, let's
look at some blogs and articles for advice. I'm gonna
read this. One blog offers fourteen characteristics of a godly
(39:37):
wife that will save your marriage. So we're going to
go down this list. Obviously, it's reading the Bible, being
persistent in prayer, giving godly wifely love, forgiving, being selfless,
I think in a godly manner, use words of affirmation
and appreciation and admiration, being a leader, but with the husband,
of course, being virtuous by understanding men. They actually say
(40:00):
virtuous by understanding men. And to elaborate on that, they say, quote,
we knew as a godly wife, take the time to
learn how men understand things. You take a huge step
in saving your marriage. You're welcome, respect your husband, having
a biblical priorities, and being a virtuous woman in the community.
And I don't think I've mentioned the whole Proverbs thirty
(40:22):
one woman, which is an old Testament. If you go,
it used to be a thing where you would find
your birth date, go to that verse and that's supposed
to describe you. Oh it's terrifying, okay, anyway, but that's
a solution. Another offers a simple solution. This article titled
(40:43):
how to be Happy in an Unhappy Marriage suggests changing
your focus and expectations. And it's not completely wrong, as
the article says, marriage isn't a Hollywood or Harlequin romance
and it's something that is about compromise at work. But
it suggests, like the article above, that marriage is for
God and that's the focus. It doesn't really offer much
(41:04):
guidance outside of that. It literally had like two paragraphs
and yeah, again it's similar to what we just saw, aka, pray,
read the Bible, follow the rules of the Bible, and
your marriage will be happy. And as a side note,
we also found an interesting conversation about parity culture once
again and the effects of marrying young for the sake
(41:27):
of sexual purity. Again, I have so many friends and
couples who fall under this line of thinking, we want
to have sex, but we want to save ourselves as
our marriage, So let's get married. Nineteen twenty twenty one.
And here's a quote from the Cedarville interpreter. I believe
Cedarville's a school quote. A practical issue with sexual abstinence
(41:47):
until marriage is that Christians are driven to marry young
in order to be able to have sex without any guilt.
Virginity is held as a pinnacle of purity and pride, which,
if nothing else, raises its own unnecessary pedestal that all
too often borders on sexual idolatry. Getting married too young
for the wrong reasons, and having unreasonable expectations of how
(42:08):
amazing being married will be can be in a catalyst
for unhappy marriages and divorce. This rush to get married
also leaves fewer opportunities to find major red flags that
should suggest ending a relationship before marriage. Yeah, and again,
being a part of the Christian culture in college and
high school, it really hits the nail on the head.
(42:28):
I the literal reason they got married is we love
each other enough. We're about to send, So let's go
ahead and go and we'll grow old together and God
will handle everything else. And then they end up in
a horrible divorce.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah yeah, I thought too.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Yeah. So, so what happens when the force does happen
and what happens to women? Like I mentioned before, a
lot of people would flee from the judgment of old
(43:06):
fashioned ideas or what I would deemed as old fashioned.
But sometimes people would come back with the hope that
enough time had passed for people to either forget or
at least not care as much. But for the most parts,
I don't think anyone ever really felt comfortable coming back
to the original churches or felt that they were still
a part of that community.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yes, and with all the turn to God articles urging
people to yes, just turn to God, pray and work
it out, there are those who decided to do what
was best for them. But something interesting we found is
that they all still felt that the church and church
leadership had a lot of say in that decision. In
(43:44):
one woman's words, as she had gone to the church
to help her volatile marriage, one key to why she
left was because her church leadership released her to legally separate.
Here's a quote from her blog. I went to church
leadership begging for help as my last resort. We were
referred to a new couple's counselor and a mentor couple.
We walked this road with our elder and campus pastor.
(44:07):
We were each given a lengthy list of things to
do to move towards reconciliation. My plea for a temporary
separation was backed up as they felt things were just
too volatile for us to remain under one roof while
trying to put things back together. But when assessed at
the end, But when assessed at the end of about
fifteen months, the unanimous decision was that I had done
all I had been asked to do and my husband
(44:29):
had not. They told me I was released from pursuing
a reconciliation and that the ball was one hundred percent
in my husband's court to save our marriage. They then
released me to legal separation, which I pursued. I must
say here that had my church leadership not released me
to legally separate, I have absolutely no idea where I
would be today. If I had to guess, though, I
believe I'd still be married and miserable and nowhere near
(44:51):
on the road to emotional health. I believe I would
not have wanted to go against the wishes and guidance
of my church leadership because of my high respect for
their wisdom and love for God. I am not staying
forever because they did release me, so I moved forward.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Of course we don't know the specifics of this marriage,
but reading some of her experiences, I think it's safe
to say if something is too volatile, there's a level
of violence that's been present, and to me that's scary,
especially with her acknowledgment that if the church had not
given her permission, she would have remained in that volatile relationship.
So what does that teach us? And then, in my experience,
(45:27):
separating would never be permitted with the old church that
I was a part of, So that leaves the victim
continuing to be a victim. Yeah, and in my opinion,
this article again was a plea for Christians to understand
her view and her desperation to leave her union, which
is really depressing. I hate that still a romantic notion
today because you know, marriage is completely different from what
(45:49):
it was a thousand years ago, one hundred years ago.
Apparently still different when it comes to k dramas and
its acquisitions can be weaponized. And that's what I feel
like this has become. These articles are talking about.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah, yeah, I actually, uh, this is like much less serious.
But I want to come back and talk about that
because I may or may not have watched the Super
Mario Brothers movie least wait.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Princess Peech.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yes, yes, because he's like essentially trying to trap her
to marriage and it's so like sad.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Song.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yes, yes, but then he like threatens her friends. Anyway,
I want to come back and talk about it. Yes,
back to the more serious stuff.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Though.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
In many of these articles, writers and authors played different
cases on why divorce is dangerous to the Christian community,
but that ostracizing them is just as dangerous and decreasing
the numbers in the Christian community. However, studies show that
many of the divorce Christians are still active in their
faith even after going through such a distressing experience, though
(47:00):
that may change as more people are walking away from
their religious background. The research might shift. But with the
Christian community, there is a battle between those who are
blaming leftists for the acceptance of divorce in their people
and those who are pleading for the church to handle
the issue of divorce with more grace and acceptance.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Right because we were coming down to how how do
the churches respond? I got more articles on again telling
women it's okay, this is how all went through it
than anything else, and then talking about how part of
the problem and part of the reason divorce is happening.
And then they're not coming back to the church's because
(47:38):
of the way they keep pushing against people who are
getting divorced. So not a lot of resolution, not a
lot of solutions. It's quite fascinating. It's just more of
a debate about why it's happening and who to blame, right.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Right, right, right again. So much we could talk about here,
so much to come. Yes, yes, well listeners. If you
have any thoughts about this, please please let us know.
You can write to us. You can email us at
Stephanie mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram
and TikTok at stuff On've Never Told You. We also
(48:12):
have a book you can pre order. It's at stuff
you Should Read Books dot com. Thanks as always to
our super producer, Christina, our executive producer.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Maya and our contributor Joey.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Thank you, yes, and thanks to you for listening stuff
I Never told you the production of iHeartRadio. For more
podcast from my heart Radio, you can check out the
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to your
favorite shows,
Hey, this is Andy and Samantha, and welcome to Stephane
Never told your production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And welcome to our series on Christianity. We're just gonna
leave it at that. We are now on part six
of Christianity, Religious Trauma and the Marginalized Community aka Western
Christianity and how it affects the Marginalized People, and so
many more titles that I've given it at this point.
(00:38):
But yeah, the series just keeps growing. Every time I
think I'm going to be talking about two or three
things in a series, it ends up being just one thing.
And that's where we are today once again. But before
we start, there is content warning. We are talking about
religious trauma, sickness, domestic violence, and divorce. I don't know,
divorce can be a sticky subject, especially if you're going
through one or you're going through bad parts in your
(00:59):
marriage and you don't want to hear about it. We're
talking all about divorce today, So go ahead and skip
this one, just so you know. And as a quick review, Annie,
because I know I've been stringing you along in this
entire series. As I'm like, hey, we'll do this is
another day or longer than I thought let's just do
this quick review. We've talked about women in Western Christian
(01:20):
communities and traditions, religious trauma, which is you know, present
all throughout, the misogyny that heavily influences this culture, the
toxicity of purity culture, which also seems to be a
whole topic in every single one of our episodes, sexual
abuse in Southern Baptist Convention, Courting marriage and motherhood, which
(01:42):
was a fun one. And today we are continuing down
that look of relationships, I guess, with a look at
Western Christianity and divorce. And right now we are going
to talk pretty in depth about divorce. Some of it
doesn't really have to do with religion. We're just kind
of talking about so the process and some of the
conversations and statistics. This is mainly applied to the United States,
(02:06):
because I know, and we want to come back because
we had a fun conversation, and I say fun in
that we were both like, huh, I wonder what this is?
What this is about? How to get a divorce?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, because I didn't know that there were all these
stipulations that you can't just get a divorce.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Well, so we're going to talk about the no fault
divorce in a minute. Apparently there's other things that have
been put in place for a while, but it's about
how people can test things and how it gets messy.
So and different states have different rules and different belief systems,
and different kind of communities in denominations also have their
own rules. Yeah, but all of that, and then different
(02:44):
countries have their own rules as well. So we're centering
this around the United States. And yes, eventually it does
come back to how Christianity handles divorce as well, so
I promise this all applies. So before we start, I
(03:05):
kind of wanted to talk about my personal experience about
divorce in my church that I grew up with, because
this is a very personal subject growing up very religious
and coming out of religion as I knew it. And
I've seen the emails that y'all have been sending about this.
Thank you so much. I know people have been connecting
with what I've been saying, as well as people who
(03:26):
are still involved in the church and finding their own path,
and it's beautiful. Thank you for those messages. But yeah,
I kind of want to talk about what I experienced,
and again, my church is a little different. It's not
big and that is part of the Southern Baptist Convention.
It's not a part of the Presbyterian Churches. It's not
a part of any of those denominations. It kind of
has an independent feel about it and it's very local.
(03:48):
So this experience can be unique in that way. But
I feel like overall, especially when it comes to old
school way of thinking and when we talk about the
traveling preachers and all of that, this is kind of
that circuit that this is the influence that fell onto
my community, like that that hell five brimstone level. So,
growing up in a small town in Georgia, the word
(04:10):
divorce had so many implications. It was a sin, and
I'm gonna put a capital s sin. Divorce was not
only a personal failure, but a moral failure and a
failure on your family, one that had to be answered
in front of the church. Dixie Church, though in my experience,
the members did not necessarily have to get permission from
(04:31):
the church, but oftentimes had to go after the fact
to face the deacons or leaders, typically men of the church,
and if they are not satisfied with the answer, you
would be reprimended and oftentimes expelled from that church. So
your membership would be done, and I don't As a kid,
when I heard membership your name was in the book,
I thought it was a literal thing. I don't think
it is. I don't know, but that's how. That's how
(04:54):
I pictured this, because I will say when I was
quote unquote saved became a member, I didn't sign anything,
so I don't know how that happened. I did say
I wanted to be a part of this church in
front of the members. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I don't know. I bet churches do that differently. I
feel like my church had like a book of memberships.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yea, there may be one. I really don't know, but
I'm like, I don't And then they had to take letters,
like if they wanted to go to a different church,
they had to take their letter. And I was like,
is that physical? Is that a physical thing? And I've
never personally seen it though, so I don't know it's
the whole thing, but yeah, the level of shame placed
(05:36):
on people getting divorced is overwhelming. The way they looked
down on divorce and even in pragice, the outside of
marriage and God forbid abortion was extreme. Having an affair
or even even abusing a spouse was less shameful, mostly
justifying it as a quote mistake. Even again, we talked
(05:57):
about it with people hiding sexual abuse within the church,
hiding all of those things and being like they made
a mistake of rewording it. They send against their marriage
instead of being no, you raped somebody, that's that's bad.
But I will say maybe murder would be considered on
that level, but only if that murder was not justified
(06:19):
for a holy reason, and sometimes even excusing husbands who
killed their wives. Recent articles written about the man who
killed his entire family had so many excerpts talking about
how godly he was and how attentive he was to
his church, his family, his mom and dad, siblings made
sure that his obituary and messages from acquaintances only acknowledged
(06:42):
how godly and christian like he was, even having the
audacity to say he loved his murdered family and fought
to keep them together, never admitting to his abusive and
overall deadly treatment of them. It was horrifying, and if
I remember correctly, his church supported that statement. Oh yeah, wow, yeah.
(07:04):
And then you look at murders like the Atlantis spallshootings
and murders of so many quick people that have often
been praised by extremist conservatives and Christian nationalists. Again, we're
talking about recently, any of the Black Lives Matter protest
murders that have happened, whether it's I don't even want
to talk about him, Kyle was his face. I don't
(07:25):
want to acknowledge him, or people like that. The dude
in Texas who used his vehicle to hurt people, they've
been praising him instead of acknowledging, Hey, this is bad.
Why are you condoning this? Yeah, so it isn't shocking
that morality is judged harsher than actual murder and abuse.
But that's a different episode. I was going to talk
(07:45):
about it in this episode, but I didn't have time.
We don't have time for that, so that's gonna be
a whole different conversation. Yeah, And my parents have been
together for over fifty years now, and I've mentioned it
before that they were really happily married. I think they
really the harshest storms together. They've beat the odds and
I'm pretty sure they'll die together. And I don't mean
(08:07):
like they're they're gonna make a pact or anything like
if one goes, the other one is gonna follow soon after,
and that's like, that's the happiest thing I could think
for them, so they don't have to be without each other.
But my siblings are a whole different story, and I'm
not gonna get too into their stuff, but I will
say each one went through their own messy divorce with
an unhealthy dose of guilt, but each would say they're
(08:28):
happier and don't regret their decisions. I think our church
was shocked and a lot of judgment was passed. It
was a rocky time for our family. The amount of
people who have known us all of our lives, have
seen us grow up in that church, who actually turn
their backs on our family was astounding. It was and
I was young. I was I guess it was middle
(08:50):
school when things were happening, and to see that reaction
from somewhere that I thought I was loved was a
chocking moment, so much so that we didn't talk to
those people, and we still don't talk to those people
till this day. It's been more than a decade since
these incidents. More has probably longer. It's been a long
long time, probably twenty years for some of these things
(09:11):
I don't know, and it caused a huge divide in
our church community. They took size and made sure you
knew which side they were on. If they didn't take
a side, it was because they felt sorry for us,
but didn't want to say it to our face, because
they didn't want the other people who were judging us
to feel like they were taking side. So it was really, really,
really interesting. It was bitter, and it was gross, and
(09:35):
it was very unforgiving, and it didn't matter the reason.
It didn't matter what the justification was. It was divorced
and that was bad. And my family wasn't the only
one that went through this. Any divorced individual felt that
really harsh thing of judgment that many of the elders
felt justified in passing and may even call them out
during sermons. Many of these people fled from the church,
(09:58):
feeling unwelcomed in ex community and isolated themselves away from
any of the people of that church, literally hid away
from some of the members. But instead of being angry
at the people who felt that they had to the
authority to shame anyone and everyone, they just felt guilty
and felt like they deserved this and for so many
felt like this ruined their lives. I will my family
(10:18):
again are at the end of like understanding what they
had to do. They had to do and they can't
change people's minds. But so many others let this ruin
their lives. And I'm not exaggerating. They wouldn't even come
to the parking lot of the church because they felt
that ashamed, and if they did, they made sure to
stay in the car and have the windows rolled up
so no one would see them. And I know many
(10:41):
have felt a shame and judgment and it's old fashioned
those the times have changed, the traditions and moral judgments
still remain. Like I said, we don't talk to these people.
So with that bitterness in mind, who I will say.
I think it's a partial reason why I'm not married
and I don't care about men age because I've seen
what people do in this level of like I can
(11:04):
judge you if they go wrong. But right, so we're
going to talk about it, and we're going to talk
about it. Is I given all the personal accounts in
a more statistical way? First?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yes, yes, okay, So when it comes to divorce, the
statistics do you vary? Although most of us have heard
that almost fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. But
when it comes to what the numbers are really and
what are the numbers when it comes to gender and
to religion, specifically to Western Christianity, that's a bit harder
(11:39):
to pin down too.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Just recently, Forbes published an article titled Revealing Divorced Statistics
in twenty twenty three, and we wanted to share some
of the findings that they reported. The half of the
marriages ending in divorce statistic actually only applies to first marriages,
but for those who maybe in their second or third marriage,
which is the highest divorce rate around to seventy three percent,
(12:02):
they're more likely to get divorced. The average length of
a marriage before divorce is eight years.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
However, the divorce rates have gone down over the years,
with the exception of a small spike during lockdown and
the initial pandemic, but so have the rates of marriage.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Right, But again, who is getting divorced? It looks like
people who have friends that are divorced are more likely
to get divorced. You're gonna get influenced. O't be streaming
whatever for me again, I just don't get married. The
remarrying thing is a factor. More boomers are getting divorced,
with an increase of forty six percent divorce rate for
(12:42):
ages fifty five to sixty four, which I found interesting.
But the average age of people getting divorced is forty
six for men and forty four for women. So I'm
not gonna prime again because I'm not married. I guess
people with high school education are less are more likely
to get divorced as well. So why are they getting divorced?
The number one reason is lack of commitment, followed by
(13:04):
infidelity and affairs, And again, the final straw is often
something specific like domestic violence, affairs, and substance abuse. But
the article also writes, quote interestingly, couples often disagree on
what the final straw was that led to the end
of their marriage. In fact, not a single couple reported
(13:25):
the same deciding issue as the ultimate reason for the
end of their marriage, which I think says a lot
to the communication part. Yes, I think it does as well.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
One other interesting statistic before we talk about the religious portion,
women are far more likely to initiate the divorce. According
to that Forbes report, sixty nine percent of divorces are
initiated by women, and if you break it down specifically,
the report stated that seven out of ten dissolutions are
initiated by women, and this is based on heterosexual relationships.
(13:59):
But there's a lot of conversations recently on why women
are leaving. In a twenty twenty two BBC article titled
why women file for divorce more than men, they talk
about different factors as to why women are leaving and
here are some of the reasons. Being able to be independent.
Unlike the old traditional ways of men being breadwinners, women
are more educated and more successful in their careers and
(14:22):
have become more ambitious. As the article says, quote, women's
entry into the workforce enabled them to leave unhappy marriages
for the first time. They were no longer financially bound
to remain in abusive partnerships or relationships where their needs
were not being met, and women thus began to initiate
divorces at greater scale. And it goes on quote This
(14:42):
also helps explain why women with university level education are
so much more likely to end a marriage across cultures
and geographies. Women who are economically able to take care
of themselves, which usually is tied to higher education levels
are more likely to initiate divorce than women who are
unable to economically sustain themselves and their children, as Heidi
car a psychologist and expert on domestic violence at the
(15:05):
US based Education Development Center right.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And on top of that, there are also emotional factors
between the social construction of women being more of the
emotional caregivers as well as being more socially constructed to
be emotionally intelligent. Women typically have higher expectations than what
is being met emotionally by the husbands, and again we
are talking heteronormative relationships and standards. Here's a long quote
(15:28):
from the BBC article. For many women, the expectations they
have when they intermarriage may fail to match up to reality.
Experts say they often have a higher expectation of how
a partner will meet their emotional needs than men, which
can lead to disappointment post wedding. Gliza fort Martinez, specialists
in conflict resolutions, says because men are usually socialized to
(15:49):
have lower emotional intelligence than women, this can lead to
female partners feeling unsupported and doing much of the emotional
labor in the relationship, which also means women are more Finally,
attuned to problems in relationship red flags, and their tendency
to be the primary communicators and empathizers means that they
may also be the first to raise issues, perhaps ultimately
(16:11):
resulting in separation or divorce. Women also tend to gain
fewer emotional benefits from marriage, which could make single life
seem more appealing. While married men experience multiple perks, including
living longer and earning more money, women don't usually benefit
from their relationships in the same way. Instead, they bear
the brunch of household and child rearing labor, which can
(16:33):
leave working women quote overwhelmed in stress as fort Martinez.
So in another article written specifically from a diverse law firm,
the Women as Law Firm, they talk about the factor
of men not paying attention to their own mental health needs,
which often leaves the wives taking on more emotional responsibility.
So here's a quote from their article. By not taking
care of their own mental health or working on their
(16:55):
communication skills, women find themselves taking on more emotional responsibility. Occasionally,
they end up being the only emotional support for the
entire family without the assistance of their partner. This emotional
burden takes its toll on women. They often feel alone
and as they have no support system within their marriage,
the mental, physical, and emotional toll of that overburdening responsibility
(17:17):
is a major contributing factor when women are considering divorce.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Then there's also the social factor. One thing we've seen
in heterosexual relationships a lot is that men do not
have many close friends.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
We've talked about that before.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
It is more likely that women continue and maintain close friendships.
Another quote from that BBC article said women quote have
a better support system both to discuss any marital issues
as well as to ease the transition back into single life.
It's also possible these friendships make divorce seem like a
more plausible option. Research suggests that if a close friend
(17:53):
gets divorced, people's own chances of divorcing rise by seventy
five percent.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
The influencing there.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
There you go, and one of the other reasons why
women may be initiating the Great divorce is just simply
for a resolution. The BBC article rights, filing for divorce
isn't the same as ending a marriage. While research shows
women in heterosexual marriages are more likely to initiate the breakup,
(18:21):
there are also women who didn't choose in their relationship
but want our need to formalize the split. Nonetheless, quote,
women tend to be more motivated than men to resolve
their marital status, says Katie Spooner, partner and head of
family law at Winkworth Sherwood, London. She says, based on
her client record, most men are happy to remain separated
unless there is a new relationship or particular imperative to
(18:43):
sort their finances.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
There is a reason where men may be one to
file for divorce instead of women, and that's because of illness.
One of the first things that pop up when we
research divorce in marriages has been articles on men leaving
women due to illness. In fact, when I put in
Google men divorce, it automatically auto filled with sick wives,
(19:18):
which made me very angry. This is even being talked
about on TikTok. I've seen this often and it hurts me.
It hurts my feelings. So what's happening? So in a
two thousand and nine Ruters article titled men more likely
than women to leave a partner with cancer, they write
women are six times more likely to end up separated
(19:39):
or divorced if they are diagnosed with cancer or multiple sclerosis,
then if their male partners were facing the same illness,
and this is according to a US study. The study
confirmed earlier research of a divorce or separation rate among
cancer patients of eleven point six percent, similar to the
general population, but found the rate jumped to twenty point
eight percent when the women was sick versus two point
(19:59):
nine percent when the man was ill.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
And apparently, fourteen years later, that hasn't changed. In another
article written for today dot Com, men are more likely
to lead their wives if sickness is involved. Here's the
quote from that article. They decided to do a study
after noticing divorce appeared to occur almost exclusively when the
wife is the disease afflicted partner. The phenomenon was called
partner abandonment and Patients with serious medical illness. The results
(20:25):
were based on five hundred and fifteen patients at three
medical centers who had a brain tumor, cancer or multiple
sclerosis and were married at the time of diagnosis. About
half were women. When the patients were followed for four
to five years to see if their marital status change,
it turned out the woman was the affected spouse in
almost ninety percent of separations. With the female gender found
(20:46):
to be the strongest predicator of separation or divorce. And
in that article, the author of the study explains men
may be very well equipped to be primary providers, but
not so well equipped to be primary caregivers. Doctor Mark Chamberlaine,
the study co author, told Today, I think men are
challenged in caring for someone who has disease and treatment
related symptoms, managing the stress, managing the logistics right.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
And there are many articles writing about the level of
unpreparedness of men becoming caretakers and taking on any type
of household responsibility. So here's a quote from a Guardian article. Tomer,
a sociologist from the University of Alabama who studies how
gender affects couples when a partner gets sick, says, in
most couples, people understand they will need to support their
partner if they get sick. But she says men and
(21:34):
women interpret what caregiving looks like very differently. Men tend
to view the partner getting sick in almost a mechanical way.
They see it as a problem to be solved. They
can separate out the obvious and immediate physical tasks that
result from the illness but other caregiving requirements are left unconsidered,
such as emotional care or housework, which I feel like
that's physical but okay. This means that a lot of
(21:55):
the time women continue to do that work, and when
they don't, problems.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Can rise and they continue. Talking about a study completed
in Germany Quote twenty eighteen, Researchers in Germany used a
nationally representative sample to show that as long as they
are still able to, women continue to do an uneven
amount of the housework while they are sick. If that
was the dynamic in their relationship before they became unwell,
particularly with more mild conditions, the expectation is that the
(22:21):
status quo will go on unless it gets so extreme
that the wife really can't do the work, says Tomer.
The flip side of this is that relationships tend to
function well when the woman gets sick and requires intensive
care from her partner, but in cases where caregiving is
not necessitated, men tend to downplay a woman's symptoms and
classer is largely self sufficient, expecting her to ask for
help rather than proactively giving it. Communication fails even in sickness,
(22:44):
but many of the reports are worse. They give examples
of women who are expected to continue with daily chores
even in pain or immediately after surgery, and if the
routines are disrupted for too long, the household falls apart,
and this includes sexual activity. Women discussed how they would
take painkillers in order to not upset their spouses. When
it came to sexual expectations.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah, it was pretty explicit. I was like, wow, okay,
I don't know. I hate all of this for you.
Of course, we've already talked about how sex and marriages
are expected and automated, but whatever. And on that note,
we're going to talk a little bit about the statistics
when it comes to Christianity and divorce. So some of
(23:27):
the forces are saying Christians are getting to divorce more
than any other religion. Is that true? That's the question,
and the answer is simple yes, But there are several
factors to that statistic. The broad term of Christianity can
be misleading. According to the Pew Research Center study, Evangelical
Protestants had fourteen percent divorce rate, while historical Black Protestants
(23:48):
had a nineteen percent. Mainline Protestants a twelve percent divorce percentage,
and they were among the highest of the divorce rates,
which in that same study included the Hinduism, Buddhists, and
muslim and other religions. But when you put them all together,
that's a big chunk of Protestants. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And another report showed that at least twenty five percent
of Christians have gone through divorce, and the numbers are
pretty studied today. Here's a quote from an older article
on divorce statistics between Christians and quote non believers. According
to the survey by the Barner Group, which is an
organization that focus on research on the intersection of faith
and culture, thirty percent of atheists and agnostics had been
(24:27):
married and subsequently divorced. But the Barner Group pointed out
that they have lower rates of marriage sixty five percent,
and a higher likelihood of cohabitation. Barnara also stated in
a two thousand and four survey that one can understand
why atheists and agnostics might have a higher rate of divorce,
since they are less likely to believe in concepts such
as sin, absolute moral truth, and judgment. Yet the survey
(24:49):
found that the percentage of atheists and agnostics who have
been married and divorce is thirty percent, still less than
the numbers for the born again population of thirty three percent.
So why is this happening?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, so we have I have several reasons according to
conservative Christians. Now, everything we're saying is coming from Christian articles. Again,
my algorithm is real messed up, real messed up. But
I did find it interesting and I can't wait to
not be on this algorithm. Women are falling under the
trap of feminism. The idea of independence and being able
(25:22):
to leave without justification not cool. Also, a big common
factor in conservative Christian blogs is the refusal to acknowledge
gender as the binary aspect. So they really don't like
any of this conversation we're having today. When feminism confuses
the role of gender again, not us, not Anie, and
I are saying this. This is again from this article.
(25:43):
Then family and marriage roles fall apart. Here's advice from
an article from The Federalist, and I really hated that
I clicked on this quote. Successful relationships depend on men
being men and women being women. Every fiber of a
woman's being calls out for a man with whom she
can feel physically and emotionally safe, and money is part
of that equation. Yes, women now earn their own money
(26:06):
and that it is not going to change, But what
can change is our attitude and approach to love. What
men and women look for in a relationship and what
they need from each other within that relationship is not
the same. Being malleable with gender role is great, but
ignoring biology is not. After all these years, women still
want security and men still want to provide that security.
(26:29):
The more of a relationship moves away from this reality,
the more it will struggle. The more a relationship moves
toward it, the more successful it will be, which is
again ironic according to the statistics we just read.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Mm also hello from nineteen fifties, and yes, this article.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Is written in twenty two and in other articles giving
advice to men about how to restore their marriage or
keep their wives, they often tell men to be authoritative
but with submissive cards, which is not necessarily wrong.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Think of it as disciplining a child and trying not
to push the child away, but gently nudging them to
the answer you want them to give. Does it seem condescending?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yes, I think.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Here's a snippet from one article called an Epidemic of
Christian Wives divorcing. Quote For the majority of these men,
nothing seems to work. They try being loving and affectionate,
just to be rejected. They try devotions and prayer together
and she has some excuse why she can't do it.
They call her out on her sins and she gets
more and more angry and bitter. Some have tried it all,
(27:40):
from being submissed themselves for a month to their wives
to prove it's not so hard, then to becoming a
man of the manosphere and taking leadership whether they have
a follower or not. Nothing they try seems to work,
and often the wife will confess in her less angry moments,
I know I am the problem, but I don't know
how to stop it. One would think that just saying
(28:00):
that would be a big breakthrough, as the awareness that
I am the problem should in a healthy mind begin
to seek solutions to unhealthy behaviors, but in many cases,
the final results are Christian wives walking away from their
marriages and epidemic numbers because they are seeking relief from
the pain that they themselves are causing. And it's not
over yet. The block keeps going, saying perhaps the root
(28:24):
cause is a desire for control, as the feminist lies
are now planted firmly in most of the young Christian
wives hearts. No longer do they go into a marriage
with an attitude that believes love is sacrificial giving of
oneself to another, but rather love is now a two
way street that says, I cannot love you if I
do not feel I am getting from you what I
believe I need.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I just.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
I want to take a minute out of this article.
In that same article, they never talk about why the
women are leaving. They just say because they refuse to
work on the marriage. Right, So what I say is
generalized to specific cases. They don't even give examples of
why the women are unhappy. This blew my mind. I
was like, why, really, women want a two way street? Wait?
(29:10):
What that's a bad thing instead of sacrificing herself. But
you know whatever, whatnot? And by the way, the article
was a man who supposedly his wife gets the thumbs
up to this article saying yes, exactly exactly right, which
is what you're supposed to do with a wife, right.
Oh wow, damn feminism, damn feminism. And yet, if you're
(29:30):
confused about the evils of feminism, here's a quote from
thegirldefined dot com. Which thing we talked about their site before.
At its route, feminism is built upon a foundation completely
devoid of God. The feminist movement is woven with the
same sin Satan committed in the beginning, a rebellious heart
that pridefully says, I don't need you God, thanks, but
(29:52):
I'll do it things my way. I'm so good at acting.
And they continue saying. The average American will agree that
most strongly stand for the following a woman's right to
abort murder her unborn baby, lesbianism, and the right for
women to marry women, complete liberation from sexual boundaries and morals,
freedom from traditional gender roles in marriage, rejection of God
(30:16):
as the ultimate authority in life. You know, outside of
the wording and the fairmong greed, they're not completely wrong.
I do feel like a woman should be able to
wear marry a woman if they're in love. I do
feel like, you know, liberating from sexual boundaries of saying
that we have to be here for men's pleasure is
not a bad thing. And yeah, traditional gender roles suck
(30:39):
and that's why people are getting divorced. But okay, whatever whatever, Sure, sure,
but I will say for that last bit, I know
a lot of Christian feminists who would disagree with this completely.
But again, there is binary thinking when it comes to
this specific line of don't ever leave people divorces.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Right and according to another blog titled why feminism wants
to dismantle the family quote Like many isms before it, communism, religions, cults,
feminism seeks to dismantle the traditional family unit for its
own gain. Why to the ism, old loyalties are like
bad habits, interfering with an individual's ability to pledge unwaiving allegiance.
(31:22):
Isms want control, but families tend to put family members
and their needs before the demands of the ism, reducing
the ISM's power and influence and therefore undermining its control.
Mm I love how they put religions in there.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
I know, I don't like occultism. Does that work? I'm
a little too literal, I think. Okay, And if y'all
want to read this glorious article yourself, let us know.
But the author of this blog cites several anti feminist
articles and books, including from the Flip Side of Feminism,
where they use this quote from it quote. Feminists realize
(32:02):
all too well that they can never achieve a level
playing field in the marketplace as long as their male
competitors have the advantage of homemaker wives. Women on the
left know that in order to get ahead more easily,
they must deprive men of their advantage in having stay
at home. Wise, the desire to eliminate the full time
homemaker has been a feminist's goal all along. The need
(32:23):
for a second income was never the goal, which I
find hilarious. They give a lot of credit to women
who just want to be able to sustain just in case.
Like at the at the beginning, it was more of like, oh,
I don't want to be abused and treated as a
servant anymore to their under my marriage, and this is
(32:46):
the goal to the entire time, Like oh, okay, a
playbook here.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I know.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
The author from the same blog expands on this idea,
saying quote, so feminism has made some progress over the
last several decades. If you look at the poorest and
least socially mobile areas in America, you will notice one
variable consistently lacking fathers, more specifically, mothers who are married
to the father of their children. Over the last few decades,
(33:17):
the birth rate for unmarried women in the US has
risen steadily from eighteen percent in nineteen eighty to forty
one percent and twenty twelve. Alarmingly, the majority of moms
believe that absent or uninvolved dads can easily be replaced
themselves or another man, despite the evidence that stable marriages
lead to happy, healthy and motivated kids, which leads to
(33:37):
stronger communities, more opportunities, and greater equality.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I find it again quite funny that whole last line
is obviously an opinion.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, okay, right, also very kind of funnily worded way,
But yeah, sure, we've.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Definitely heard that argument before.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
The blog talks more about the perils of feminism in
regards to motherhood, politics, and marriage, but I think we
got we got that covered for now. An interesting theory
she brings, and so many other articles bring, is the
idea that things like divorce and child support are too
easy to access and that encourages more women to leave
their husbands right.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Recently, the topic of no fault divorce has been trending.
Right wing conservative Stephen Crowder has been lamenting, and I
mean just whining, his current marital status, which is now
no longer a thing. He told his audience about his
recent divorce, quote, No, this was not my choice. My
then wife decided that she didn't want to be married anymore,
and in the state of Texas that is completely permitted.
(34:46):
This was, by the way, an accusation, not just a statement.
Here's what a no fault divorce is. It allows a
couple to divorce without blame or fault. It is often
the simplest path and divorce available in a state, and
it exists in all fifty and DC according to legal
zoom dot com. And it explains further. No fault divorce
allows one spouse to file for divorce without blaming the
(35:08):
other or indicating that it was either spouse's fault. The
terminology differs with each state's no fault divorce laws, but
to obtain a no fault divorce, the spouse who files
simply needs to state that there has been irreconcilable differences
or incompatibility. And in some states, living apart for a
specific period of time can be the reason for a
no fault divorce. And I've heard that before just being
(35:30):
separated is enough. And conservatives are not a fan and
are wanting to end no fault divorce. And when we
say conservatives, I'm talking about political figureheads. In a recent
Rolling Stone magazine article, They write, but Republicans across the
country are now reconsidering no fault divorce. There isn't a
huge mystery behind the campaign, like the crusades against abortion
(35:52):
and contraception. Making it more difficult to leave an unhappy
marriage is about control. Crowder's home state could be the
first to eliminate it if the Texas is his way.
Last year, the Republican Party of Texas added language to
its platform calling for an end to no fault divorce.
In it, they said, we are the legislators to rescind
unilateral no fault divorce laws, to support covenant marriage, and
(36:15):
to pass legislation extending the period of time in which
a divorce may occur to six months after the date
of filing for divorce. And this is what we were
talking about, how to file for divorces because it does
a lot of stakes. Do have this type of stipulation. Yeah,
but it's interest in the wording covenant marriage.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, very interesting, and of course other conservative states are
following suit. Here's another quote from that article. It's not
just Texas. A similar proposals presently being workshopped by the
Republican Party of Louisiana. The Nebraska GOP has affirmed its
beliefs that no fault divorce should only be accessible to
couples without children. At the Republican National Convention in twenty sixteen,
(36:54):
the last time the party platform was overhauled, delegates considered
adding language declaring quote children are made to be by
both natural parents united in marriage. Legal structures such as
no fault divorce, which divides families and in powers of state,
should be replaced by a fault based divorced It's unclear
whether the party's twice divorced nominee for president, Wade in
(37:14):
on the debate at that time.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Right, I feel like this is going to hurt a
lot of politicians, and this is going to hurt a
lot of conservatives. Again, as we heard that the rates
of divorce and Christianity is higher, it makes you question.
And also I feel like less people are gonna get
married and have children, which is the opposite of what
Christian nationalists want. But you know, whatever, right, right, right, right,
And yes, no surprise.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Just as they said in the article, this is a
large conversation on control and loss of autonomy. In an
older article about no fault divorce, They write that things
like no fault divorce is an attacked the sanctity of marriage,
even more so than gay marriage, and is another strategy
by feminists. Ah here's a couple of quotes from this
two thousand and five article. The most forthright marriage advocates
(37:58):
recognize that, as Michael mccannis of Marriage Savers' Rights, divorce
is far more grievous blow to marriage than today's challenge
by gaze. Predictably, this fact has been seized upon by
advocates of same sex marriage. The weakening of marriage has
been heterosexuals doing, not gays, for it is their infidelity,
divorce rates, and single parent families that have wrought social damage,
(38:20):
opines the Economist. This distinction ignores the fact that the
two problems are closely connected. Gay marriage would probably not
be an issue in the first place if marriage had
not already been weakened by divorce. Interesting, and according to
the same article, divorce is a part of the feminist strategy.
They write today feminist operatives employ similar strategies to encourage
(38:43):
divorce worldwide, often inserting it unnoticed and unopposed into programs
for human rights and unilateral Divorce is now one of
the first measures implemented by leftist governments.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
In two thousand and five, wasn't it Bush? Yeah? I
think yeah, anyway, yeah yeah, so again feminist operatives. Yeah,
that's usastly badass. I'm not gonna lie. And if feminism
(39:16):
is a strategic plant to destroy families, then obviously Christian
conservatives must combat the way they know how through fear
and jame. For example, what happens when a woman in
unhappy marriage is desperate for the next steps. Well, let's
look at some blogs and articles for advice. I'm gonna
read this. One blog offers fourteen characteristics of a godly
(39:37):
wife that will save your marriage. So we're going to
go down this list. Obviously, it's reading the Bible, being
persistent in prayer, giving godly wifely love, forgiving, being selfless,
I think in a godly manner, use words of affirmation
and appreciation and admiration, being a leader, but with the husband,
of course, being virtuous by understanding men. They actually say
(40:00):
virtuous by understanding men. And to elaborate on that, they say, quote,
we knew as a godly wife, take the time to
learn how men understand things. You take a huge step
in saving your marriage. You're welcome, respect your husband, having
a biblical priorities, and being a virtuous woman in the community.
And I don't think I've mentioned the whole Proverbs thirty
(40:22):
one woman, which is an old Testament. If you go,
it used to be a thing where you would find
your birth date, go to that verse and that's supposed
to describe you. Oh it's terrifying, okay, anyway, but that's
a solution. Another offers a simple solution. This article titled
(40:43):
how to be Happy in an Unhappy Marriage suggests changing
your focus and expectations. And it's not completely wrong, as
the article says, marriage isn't a Hollywood or Harlequin romance
and it's something that is about compromise at work. But
it suggests, like the article above, that marriage is for
God and that's the focus. It doesn't really offer much
(41:04):
guidance outside of that. It literally had like two paragraphs
and yeah, again it's similar to what we just saw, aka, pray,
read the Bible, follow the rules of the Bible, and
your marriage will be happy. And as a side note,
we also found an interesting conversation about parity culture once
again and the effects of marrying young for the sake
(41:27):
of sexual purity. Again, I have so many friends and
couples who fall under this line of thinking, we want
to have sex, but we want to save ourselves as
our marriage, So let's get married. Nineteen twenty twenty one.
And here's a quote from the Cedarville interpreter. I believe
Cedarville's a school quote. A practical issue with sexual abstinence
(41:47):
until marriage is that Christians are driven to marry young
in order to be able to have sex without any guilt.
Virginity is held as a pinnacle of purity and pride, which,
if nothing else, raises its own unnecessary pedestal that all
too often borders on sexual idolatry. Getting married too young
for the wrong reasons, and having unreasonable expectations of how
(42:08):
amazing being married will be can be in a catalyst
for unhappy marriages and divorce. This rush to get married
also leaves fewer opportunities to find major red flags that
should suggest ending a relationship before marriage. Yeah, and again,
being a part of the Christian culture in college and
high school, it really hits the nail on the head.
(42:28):
I the literal reason they got married is we love
each other enough. We're about to send, So let's go
ahead and go and we'll grow old together and God
will handle everything else. And then they end up in
a horrible divorce.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah yeah, I thought too.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Yeah. So, so what happens when the force does happen
and what happens to women? Like I mentioned before, a
lot of people would flee from the judgment of old
(43:06):
fashioned ideas or what I would deemed as old fashioned.
But sometimes people would come back with the hope that
enough time had passed for people to either forget or
at least not care as much. But for the most parts,
I don't think anyone ever really felt comfortable coming back
to the original churches or felt that they were still
a part of that community.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yes, and with all the turn to God articles urging
people to yes, just turn to God, pray and work
it out, there are those who decided to do what
was best for them. But something interesting we found is
that they all still felt that the church and church
leadership had a lot of say in that decision. In
(43:44):
one woman's words, as she had gone to the church
to help her volatile marriage, one key to why she
left was because her church leadership released her to legally separate.
Here's a quote from her blog. I went to church
leadership begging for help as my last resort. We were
referred to a new couple's counselor and a mentor couple.
We walked this road with our elder and campus pastor.
(44:07):
We were each given a lengthy list of things to
do to move towards reconciliation. My plea for a temporary
separation was backed up as they felt things were just
too volatile for us to remain under one roof while
trying to put things back together. But when assessed at
the end, But when assessed at the end of about
fifteen months, the unanimous decision was that I had done
all I had been asked to do and my husband
(44:29):
had not. They told me I was released from pursuing
a reconciliation and that the ball was one hundred percent
in my husband's court to save our marriage. They then
released me to legal separation, which I pursued. I must
say here that had my church leadership not released me
to legally separate, I have absolutely no idea where I
would be today. If I had to guess, though, I
believe I'd still be married and miserable and nowhere near
(44:51):
on the road to emotional health. I believe I would
not have wanted to go against the wishes and guidance
of my church leadership because of my high respect for
their wisdom and love for God. I am not staying
forever because they did release me, so I moved forward.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Of course we don't know the specifics of this marriage,
but reading some of her experiences, I think it's safe
to say if something is too volatile, there's a level
of violence that's been present, and to me that's scary,
especially with her acknowledgment that if the church had not
given her permission, she would have remained in that volatile relationship.
So what does that teach us? And then, in my experience,
(45:27):
separating would never be permitted with the old church that
I was a part of, So that leaves the victim
continuing to be a victim. Yeah, and in my opinion,
this article again was a plea for Christians to understand
her view and her desperation to leave her union, which
is really depressing. I hate that still a romantic notion
today because you know, marriage is completely different from what
(45:49):
it was a thousand years ago, one hundred years ago.
Apparently still different when it comes to k dramas and
its acquisitions can be weaponized. And that's what I feel
like this has become. These articles are talking about.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah, yeah, I actually, uh, this is like much less serious.
But I want to come back and talk about that
because I may or may not have watched the Super
Mario Brothers movie least wait.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Princess Peech.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yes, yes, because he's like essentially trying to trap her
to marriage and it's so like sad.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Song.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yes, yes, but then he like threatens her friends. Anyway,
I want to come back and talk about it. Yes,
back to the more serious stuff.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Though.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
In many of these articles, writers and authors played different
cases on why divorce is dangerous to the Christian community,
but that ostracizing them is just as dangerous and decreasing
the numbers in the Christian community. However, studies show that
many of the divorce Christians are still active in their
faith even after going through such a distressing experience, though
(47:00):
that may change as more people are walking away from
their religious background. The research might shift. But with the
Christian community, there is a battle between those who are
blaming leftists for the acceptance of divorce in their people
and those who are pleading for the church to handle
the issue of divorce with more grace and acceptance.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Right because we were coming down to how how do
the churches respond? I got more articles on again telling
women it's okay, this is how all went through it
than anything else, and then talking about how part of
the problem and part of the reason divorce is happening.
And then they're not coming back to the church's because
(47:38):
of the way they keep pushing against people who are
getting divorced. So not a lot of resolution, not a
lot of solutions. It's quite fascinating. It's just more of
a debate about why it's happening and who to blame, right.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Right, right, right again. So much we could talk about here,
so much to come. Yes, yes, well listeners. If you
have any thoughts about this, please please let us know.
You can write to us. You can email us at
Stephanie mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram
and TikTok at stuff On've Never Told You. We also
(48:12):
have a book you can pre order. It's at stuff
you Should Read Books dot com. Thanks as always to
our super producer, Christina, our executive producer.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Maya and our contributor Joey.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Thank you, yes, and thanks to you for listening stuff
I Never told you the production of iHeartRadio. For more
podcast from my heart Radio, you can check out the
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to your
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