August 31, 2024 • 49 mins
Yves shares the story of Jarena Lee, the first authorized woman preacher of the African Methodist Episcopal Church.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
I'll Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today it
is time for another edition of Female First, which means
we are joined by the wonderful, the magnificent Eves Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thank you, happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
It's so nice to have you. We were very very
lucky listeners. We got to hang out with Eve's I
R L as they say, in Washington, DC recently and
it was so great. It was so great seeing you.
We did a panel together on Better Banter. Both Samantha
(00:50):
and I said that you were a very steady presence
when we were so anxious, and we really appreciated that.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So it was a it was a really it was
a good time. It was a good time.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yeah, and we weren't there that long, but I feel
like we got a good amount of like balance of
our time working in our time, like actually being able
to step outside.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And breathe fresh air. Yeah, so that was that was nice.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
I feel like we were bonding. Maybe I was bonding
a little too much.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
No, no, no, I mean what would life be if
you don't actually try to connect with the people you're
interacting with.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
It's true, but you know some people don't, so you know, like, yeah,
this is but it was amazing. Before I get too
negative about myself, but it was amazing. It was such
a good time. I feel like we got to meet
new people. Uh it was nice having you and around
because you are the extrovert of our group. Yeah, you were.
You were the one that would like walk get into
a place, immediately start talking to a stranger. And and
(01:47):
I would just look at each other like do we
stand here, do we join the conversation?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
What do we do?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I'm in denial right now because I would not describe
myself as an extrovert.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
For the event.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
You really were. You went out there and I was like, ah,
she's talking to everybody. I'm just gonna sit back and watch.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Maybe on some spectrum, somebody's spectrum, and that's fair our spectrum.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah, you're very much extraverting the three of us.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Maybe it's like the networking spectrum.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
You were very extroverted, and we were like Samantha and
I were like, don't look our way.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Looking down trying to find our footsteps and that fall,
but don't don't look up. They're staring at you. At
one point, Anie did say, don't make eye contact move.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I did. I know why that way.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
It was for a good reason, but I feel like
that's one of those those comments.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I was like you, oh yeah, yes, us. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
For listeners, y' all know how it is when you're
around a bunch of people who are new and.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Old who uh you know, I can get kind of awkward.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
In situations when you haven't seen somebody in a really
long time, and you gotta stay per professional.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
You do you do?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
So, Samath and I did a kind of brief recap
of our thoughts about the trip, but Eves, do you
have any any thoughts you'd like to share about our
time in DC.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
I think it was just nice to do a panel
together overall, because we've never done a panel together before,
and y'all have been doing the show for a really
long time, and I've been coming on doing female first
for a really long time. So I think it just
made sense for us to talk about banter because that's
what we've been doing for so long. But was also
nice to get out of these little rectangular windows and
(03:37):
into real life and talk to people and talk to
each other. So I think that was a breath of
fresh air. That's just a general comment for me, You
would think that we would have done something like this
together before, but we haven't.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Yeah, and I feel like we did get a lot
of good feedback from people saying that we did a
good job. We had good banter nah.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Yeah, And I think that the conference has it available
via podcast now and I think people might have to
pay for that, but if folks are interested in hearing
the panel, it's called better Banter that we did at
podcast Movement.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
You can listen to that. Yes, I almost.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Had a heart attack this morning when I opened my
email box and I had fifty emails.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I'm assuming that that mistake because I sat there, I
was like, what is happening? Did I do? And then
because I was half asleep when I saw that, I
was like did I just imagine that? Because I quick
quickly deleted all of them, and then I was like, wait,
did I dream that?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I love to know that.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
You that's how you handle working. That's yeah, you do.
You don't try to check the veracity. If you really
need this thing, if it's legitimate, you just toss it
in the trash. Everybody, the really important letter in the mail.
When you see those scam letters in the mail, you
know the ones that try to make look official where
you have to tear the sides off and my like
hand ran in the front. Do you just you just
(05:05):
automatically throw them in the trash.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
It's according to whether or not where it's from and
who is from. I'm like, if I don't know how
you would be, Like, if it's a stranger from, I'm like, yeah, no, I.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Hope you haven't thrown any checks away.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
If someone's sending me a random check, I'm gonna think
that's a fraud too, Like the amount of fraud that
has happened with mail, especially that I'm like, I'm not
trying to get me. I'm not gonna do this. I'm
not that's the level I'm at to be fair. But yeah, no,
Like when those emails there are all repeat from like
a generic I was like, yeah, this is just feeling
up my inbugs and any notes. I don't like notifications
(05:40):
like that, So I'm like, it's got to go.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
It's got I immediately often lament no one reads my emails,
and this is I would be giving me further doubts.
Just to clarify, basically, podcast movement since a notification every
time they upload it one of the panels for you
to listen to.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
So it was that? What that was? Yeah, I thought
it was a mistake. Yeah, great, thank you.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, but it was fIF It was like forty five
emails and I had five other things, I think, But
it was a lot.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
It was a lot.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
It was a lot. Y'all need you to condense that
to whomever sent those emails.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Thank you for doing your job. What did that miss?
What has gone wrong?
Speaker 4 (06:24):
It reported me? I've been banned from podcasts.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Damn damn it? Who it happened onto my next career.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I'm really excited to talk about the person you brought
today is because we talked about religion a lot on
this show, a lot, a lot, a lot, and I
just thought this was a really fascinating story.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So who did you bring for us today? So I
brought Jerina Lee.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I am excited to talk about her too, because y'all
talk about religion a lot, but I feel like I
haven't brought a lot of religious people on for female first,
So I am excited too. Jarina Lee was the first
woman preacher in the African Methodist Episcopal Church, and she
was the first Black American woman to publish an autobiography,
and those two things are huge and just kind of disparate.
(07:24):
Like she has this big religious background, and I think
the autobiography thing just kind of happened tangentially. And I
don't want to get ahead of myself here, but I
just I love that she did write about herself in
the ways that she did, so I'm grateful.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
For her doing that. So yeah, should we get into it.
Let's get into this.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Jerina Lee was born on February eleventh, seventeen eighty three,
in Cape May, New Jersey. So she said her parents
were free and black and their family was poor.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
When she was about.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Seven years old, she was hired out. So parents sometimes
did this to make extra money. They would send their
children away to work so that they can earn money
for the family. This is what happened with Darina. She
was taken about sixty miles away, and she had to
do domestic work for the Sharp family. Throughout her childhood
(08:21):
and her young adulthood, she was placed with different families
and she lived away from home. She said that her
parents were quote wholly ignorant of the knowledge of God.
So by that, what I would assume she means is
that they weren't teaching her about Christianity. There was no
(08:42):
Bible around the house, there were no other forms of
spirituality that they were invested in themselves and probably teaching
her as well. But she still turns to spirituality when
she's young. So it seems like, kind of early on,
we're already seeing these self imposed instances of her having
like come to religion moments. She has a lot of
(09:04):
those throughout her life, but it happens really early on,
and I'm just I'm thinking about that, I'm a child
of Southern Baptist faith, Black Southern Baptist faith, and you know,
that's kind of that's an inherited thing a lot of
the time, and it was for me. So that's not
(09:24):
even close to the experience that I had. I was like,
what else is out there like this? You know, isn't
resonating with me that much. So thinking about her not
having any sort of spirituality in her life and having
these really big, really big emphatic moments is very interesting
to me. But I'll talk about that moment she had
(09:45):
early on. So she says that she lies to the
woman she's working for. She tells her that she did
some work when she really had it. And then this
is a quote from her. She says, the spirit of
God moved in power through my content and told me
I was a wretched sinner on this account. So great
was the impression and so strong were the feelings of
(10:07):
guilt that I promised in my heart that I would
not tell another lie. So she's like a lie, but
that felt horrible, like.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
She was not she was.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
She seemed a little I don't know if you would
call that type a or what, but she definitely had
a lot of strong feelings just because she told a
tiny lie. And I can only imagine like she was tired,
she was young, and she was working for a family,
and she was away from her family. I can't imagine
the amount of separation trauma like labor trauma, economic trauma
(10:38):
that was happening in that moment. And she's she is
beating herself up for telling what is seemingly a small lie.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
I think we can.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Already start to understand her personality and how intense it
is from that description. But she said her heart still
grew harder after this, and God kept working on her.
So in eighteen oh four, she goes to hear a
Presbyterian missionary preach at one afternoon meeting, and he reads
(11:07):
the Psalms and she has this renewed conviction after having
that heart and heart, she's like, I got this renewed conviction,
and she says, Lord, I am vile, conceived in sin, born,
unholy and unclean, sprung from man who's guilty. Fall corrupts
the race and taints us all. So she's had this
moment and when she realizes her sin, this helps her
(11:31):
feel the weight of her sins. But she's still young.
She doesn't really know how to deal with that, and
she tries to die by suicide. And what she says.
She talks about this moment in a little bit more detail.
I won't go into the details here, but she says
that it was the unseen arm of God that saved her.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And she does continue.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
In other moments of her life to struggle with suicidal ideation.
But a little while later, she goes to Philly and
she goes to an African Methodist Episcopal church there and
she hears Reverend Richard Allen preach. So he is the
reverend who founds the am Church. And in this really
(12:17):
dramatic moment, she explains accepting God, and she says that
instant it appeared to me as if a garment which
had entirely enveloped my whole person, even to my fingers,
ends split at the crown of my head, and was
stripped away from me, passing like a shadow from my sight,
when the glory of God seemed to cover me and
(12:39):
its stead. I was really struck by her writing in
that moment. This is something that she wrote in her autobiography.
It's so image heavy, it's so image rich, it's so
like fanciful, it's so imaginative. But it doesn't seem like
she's just doing this as she's like, no, this is
(13:01):
what I really felt. This is what I really saw.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
In the moment.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And there are other moments throughout her autobiography when she
really hones in on those details of the visions that
she's having and the feelings that she's feeling. She also
has visions of Hell that she describes and of Satan,
and these are moments that really presses her deeper into
(13:26):
her religious journey. But she moves along and she's feeling
like she's been forgiven for her sins and she's converted
to God, and at a certain point she gets to
a place in her journey where she stops feeling fear
and guilt and distress, and she starts wanting to know
(13:47):
more of the right way of the Lord. So I'll
stop here and say that historians and scholars who have
done research on her and her story, there is some
speculation around what her mental state was at the time.
They have said that she might have had mental illness,
(14:09):
but that is just derived from all of her descriptions
of what she was going through. So the suicidal ideation
ideas around sin the fact that she was separated from
her family so young and had to do domestic labor
in other people's homes.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
People were enslaved around her, so she was.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Not enslaved, but this was during chattel slavery was happening
around her, So that's unclear. But it is something that
historians have thought about and have speculated around, but it's
not anything that I would feel comfortable saying is one
way or the other, because they.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Haven't said that.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
But about four or five years later, she's drawn to
preach and she tells Reverend Richard Allen, the founder of
the Ami Church, that the Lord told her to preach.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
She was called to it.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
She got signs and she is supposed to preach. She's
really feeling in her spirit. But he's like, no, okay,
women can't do that. I know y'all have seen this
a lot throughout all of the things that y'all have
talked about in history, where it's like, Okay, you're coming
to ask me this, but you know, women can't do that.
(15:28):
That's what he said to her. He said, yeah, that's
not allowed in our practice.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
He was also like, yeah, I can't remember her name,
but he said, yeah, this other woman came to me
and asked me that too, But you know she was
wildent too, like she can't do that, and you can't
do that. But she's thinking. Jerinaly is thinking this. She
says for us, unseemly as it may appear nowadays, for
a woman to preach, it should be remembered that nothing
(15:56):
is impossible with God. And why should it be impossible,
heterodox or improper for a woman to preach, seeing that
the Savior died for the woman as well as for
the man.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
I don't she has a point.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
I mean, if you look at the logic of it,
it's like this is for all of us. We're trying
to spread this message. Why are you keeping me from
trying to do the work that needs to be done here?
If you're trying to evangelize, if you're trying to bring
more people into the faith, if you're trying to get
more people to sign up to come to am church
and you know be saved, then why you won't let
(16:33):
me preach like I'm called to it? If God can
call you to it as a man, then why can't
God call me to it?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
So she calls that out.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
She recognizes how much it doesn't make sense, and that
spirit of wanting to preach remains with her, but there
is something that disrupts that, and that's when she marries
Joseph Lee, which she does in eighteen eleven, and he's
a pastor in snow Hill, which is a community that's
just outside of Philly, and Dreina doesn't know anybody in
(17:04):
snow Hill besides her husband, so it's hard. She's having
a hard time adjusting because customs there are different and
she doesn't have friends to hang out with.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
It's just like her husband's preaching.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
He's doing this thing that she couldn't even do just now,
and she's kind of having to sideline herself for him.
She asked him to go to Philadelphia with her, but
he doesn't want to leave his congregations.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
So she's like, well, guess I gotta stay here. That's
what I got to do as his wife.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
So she acquiesces to his ministry and she has two
children with him. She has several children, she has more
than that, but they die, and she has two children
who survive, and in eighteen seventeen he dies as well,
her husband. So at this point, there's not much that
(17:55):
she writes about her marriage to her husband. And I've
also seen history talk about this where it's like they
don't really know anything about in detail about her relationship
with her husband, because she doesn't talk about it in
her autobiography. And that's one of the main sources that
is like the main source of information about her.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
But it's just it is the shortest.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
It is the shortest part of the entire autobiography, which
I am very curious about. I would love to know
more about it. But she goes into such great detail
about other parts of her life, and there is such
little detail about her marriage to her husband, how she
felt about him, what they did on a day to
day basis, where he was from, how he grew up,
(18:40):
how he thought about things. You know, it's none of
that in there. So I can't really tell y'all much
about her marriage to her husband, but after he dies,
she clearly during this time, it's pretty clear if you
read in between the lines, that this whole time she
was still pining to preach, because right after he dies
she basically this is eight years after she first asks
(19:03):
Reverend Richard Allen to preach. She's feeling that fire again
and she's willing to speak up about it. And Reverend
Allen is now the bishop of the AMA Church in America.
He becomes that in eighteen sixteen, and one day there's
another reverend named Richard Williams who's preaching at Bethel Church
and at one point they describe it as him seeming
(19:25):
to have lost the spirit. I don't know what that
sermon was. I don't think there's record of that sermon.
None of Jerina's sermons are extant either, so that is
another thing I would love to see, like what her
sermons actually were.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
She talks about what she talked about in them a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
But full sermons are not available but it is said
that this guy's sermon wasn't going so well. He had
the people in the first half, but in the second
half he kind of lost them. And Jerina's like, well,
I got something to say. I'm feeling the spirit. So
she up and she starts preaching on the passage that
he was preaching, which is a bold move. Yeah, yeah,
(20:07):
you know, I feel like that's even a bold move
for people nowadays. Like, just think about a corporate office setting.
You're like, this speech is not going well.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
A man full of men or like I got some.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Boss man is speaking and you step in and say, like, actually,
this isn't going so well.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Let me finish this for you. Let me take the
top off of your hands.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
And then now think about that as a free black woman, right,
I mean, granted it was Philly, you know, and that
was a place where lots of abolitionists were. There was
a spirit of freedom and independence and anti slavery and
all of that. So consider the context, but also.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Consider the context, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
So she is up and she preaches, she does her thing,
and then she says, now scared, She talks about how
she's frightened after so she felt it at the moment,
but right after she was like, oh, oh, what did
I do? And she thought she might be kicked out
of the church, which is a fair assumption to make.
But Bishop Allen gets up and he tells the congregation
(21:14):
that she asked him eight years ago to preach, so
he acknowledges what happened before, and he tells the congregation
He's like, and I said no, she asked me to preach,
but I said no. But now he believes that she's
called to the work. He's like, I've seen I've witnessed this.
I've seen the evidence of you really being a good
(21:37):
preacher and being able to do this. And that's a
reversal because not only was the first part of her
getting up a total anomaly and a risk for her,
but like to have the man who has such a
position of power over the church and in the church
and has already said no to her to affirm but
(22:00):
what she's driven to do in this moment also something
that is so deeply personal and spiritual, probably felt very vindicated.
I mean, I'm speculating, but you know that is huge.
That's a huge deal for that to happen like that
in that moment and immediately it's not like she was
punished then and then later on he was like, hmm,
I think I was wrong that second time. It happens immediately,
(22:23):
So I think that's a very fascinating moment in her story.
Is clearly a turning point because this is where we
get to her first, he's basically given her the approval
to keep preaching. She feels he relieve about that. It
gets her the strength to keep preaching. But she's still
not ordained technically, but she is allowed to preach, and
(22:48):
Bishop Allen supports her travel and her preaching, and he
and his wife babysat her kids. So that's really helpful
in her being able to go out and preach in
different places. She can't preach in the church, she's not
ordained to do that. So this is where we get
to this next phase of her life. She is, you know,
(23:10):
had these come to God moments. She's been married and
now her husband died, and now she's like fulfilling this
thing that has been an inkling in her and growing
and growing and growing, and now it's finally blossomed. And
she goes out and she starts traveling around and preaching
in friends and family members houses, meeting houses, schools, and courthouses.
(23:34):
So being an itinerant preacher was a big thing for
people at the time. There were men who were doing it,
and Drina Lee is doing it now too. It was
still difficult for women and going out and preaching, especially
during times of slavery and Maryland was a slave state,
and she was going to Maryland to preach, so she
(23:58):
was going to places where it was risky and dangerous
for her to be speaking in front.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Of these crowds.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
But traveling around preaching from place to place, you know,
you had these different denominations who were trying to get
people on their sides. And so there were the Baptists
over here and people were coming to the Baptist and
it was like, we're in election season, so it's like
you trying to its you trying to capture more votes,
to try to bring more people into a voter registration process.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
It's kind of like they were.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
She was out there knocking on doors, she was out
there given sermons and all kinds of places and hopeful
about bringing as many people in as possible to her faith.
She really felt called to the am Church when she
she was kind of skeptical about Methodist Church when she
first went, and then she had a connection kind of
In the beginning of her story, she talks about that.
(24:50):
So she's traveling around to all these different places and
giving sermons, but she has got to make some money
to take care of her children and get back home
at some point. So she opens the school and she
says that she teaches eleven students, and eventually she does
get enough money to go back to Philly. She has
(25:13):
a sketchy journey by ship. She says it was pretty perilous,
but she gets to Philly on November twelfth, eighteen twenty one,
and she still continues traveling in the area and beyond.
And one of my favorite things about her autobiography is
how specific she is. She talks about walking miles and miles.
(25:38):
She's going by wagon and by boat to some places.
She talks about giving multiple sermons in you know, a day,
and she even goes to Canada. She is preaching to
all different kinds of congregations too, So there are black
congregations and she really wants to speak to black people,
but there are also mixed congregations, which wasn't even a.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Thing that people really wanted.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
They didn't want women speaking to mixed crowds at the time,
especially black women. And you know, she's traveling to states where,
like I said, Maryland, people are enslaved in Maryland, and
she's preaching to enslaved people as well, so enslavers would
allow enslaved people to go to sermons. Sometimes enslaved people
(26:27):
were walking many, many miles to get to her sermons
and then walking back to the plantations to labor in
the morning.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
And Jarena kind of justifies.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
A lot of the bad things happening around, like antagonism
and hatred by calling it the work of the devil sometimes.
But in eighteen twenty three, she goes back to Philly
and the bishop offers her a preaching position at Bethel Church.
But there are still folks there who are against a
woman preaching. So this is something that still comes up.
(27:02):
She she's traveling a lot of places and family members
are putting on her on, people she knows are putting
her on, and she's being allowed to preach in some places,
but she still is facing a lot of opposition and
places to her being a woman preaching.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
It is the case in her.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Autobiography as it is in a lot of other enslaved people,
something that I'm fascinated by. It's like a lot of
the times they don't dwell on the antagonism that they
were facing. They're not like a lot of the time
enslaved people who are like in contact with a lot
of people who are traveling around the US or not
even enslaved.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
People, black people who are free.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
If they're talking about traveling around the US during slavery times,
like they don't. Sometimes they don't dwell on the moments
where they're like this happened when I was in this
place and I was in grave danger and it was
so risky and they almost killed me. You just know
that there are tons of stories like that in between
all the moments that they are talking about. And she
(28:05):
doesn't really dwell on that too much, although she does
acknowledge the difficulties that she had, But she gives all
kinds of sermons, and once she's even invited to an
enslaver's house to give three funeral sermons for two adults
and a child.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
So I'm trying to.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Put myself in her shoes and think about how focused
she is on her mission of imparting the knowledge and
the wisdom of God and the Church on to anybody
and everybody, including people who have done really vile things,
people who hate the side of her and want her
did people who consider other people property.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
You know, she is so called to her work that
she travels far.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
She goes into detail about the number of miles that
she walks and the number of sermons that she gives,
and it's thousands of miles that she walks over a
period of time and over one hundred sermons that she
gives over a period of time.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So it's a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
And of course she's invested in that spiritual path and preaching,
but she's also invested in anti slavery. She's not like
a really big or it doesn't seem like based on records,
that she was an abolitionist who was constantly working for
the abolition of slavery, but she does, in eighteen thirty
(29:40):
four go to an anti slavery meeting in Buffalo, New York.
And in her autobiography she talks about how horrible and
violent and wicked the institution of chattel slavery is. But
this is where we get to her other first. So
in eighteen thirty six she publishes the first edition of
her autobiography, which is the life and religious experience of
(30:01):
Jerina Lee, a colored lady, giving an account of her
call to preach the Gospel. And that's what makes her
the first Black American woman to publish an autobiography. In
eighteen forty four, she submits an expanded autobiography to the
Amme Church and their book committee, but they ignore her request.
It takes her a few years to get it back
up and off the ground, but in eighteen forty nine
(30:22):
she publishes an extended version of her autobiography with another press.
And this is one that everybody can access online.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
You can go and read it.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
And like I said, she gets pretty meticulous in her
own record keeping and a lot of moments, it really
feels like a diary, like it's a journal, Like I
could see her dating these things. She keeps dates people,
the names of people that she meets. It is very detailed.
She gets into the weeds about where she travels and
(30:54):
who she sees.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
And all of that.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
And at the end of the autobiography she says this
ps pleased to pardon errors and excuse all imperfections, as
I have been deprived of the advantages of education, which
I hope all will appreciate, as I am measurably a
self taught person. I hope the contents of this work
(31:17):
may be instrumental in leaving a lasting impression upon the
minds of the impenitent. May it prove to be encouraging
to the justified soul and a comfort to the sanctified.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So Jerina.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
In eighteen fifty three, she speaks at the American Anti
Slavery Society's convention in Philly. But as is unfortunately the
case for a lot of people, she is poor.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
At the end of her life.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
There was a report in the records of the Pennsylvania
Abolition Society about her, and it said that in her
last days she depended on the contributions of others. And
it also says that a little while before she died,
she said she wished she was done with begging. She
died on February fifth, eighteen sixty four, in Philly, and
(32:06):
her legacy and story were rediscovered around the nineteen eighties.
Because her work kind of faded out of the consciousness
for a while, as often happens in other people's stories.
And in twenty sixteen, though the am Church ordained her
posthumously at the fiftieth Quadrunial Session of the General Conference,
(32:29):
so she did get recognition by the Ami Church, and
of course all thankfully all of the historians and scholars
have unearthed more information about her and still are putting
out more information about her and researching her. So that
is great, even though her legacy kind of faded for
a little while. What a story, right, And I mean, yeah,
(33:03):
there's so many instances she has where I can just
visualize this happening and the importance of it. And we
were discussing when we were together, and do you see
the importance as we always talk about of having things
like an autobiography or a diary or what have you.
But it is fascinating too because we do talk about
(33:26):
religion a lot on this show, and this is still
a thing.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
This is still.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Like I had to we did a whole episode and
some of you are gonna be like, duh, but we
did a whole episode where I was like, hey, and
a woman be the pope And the answer was no,
Like answer is no, But it's still a point of
conversation and contention in so many religions, and I know
friends who have left churches because of they won't allow
(33:54):
women to preach or what have you. So having this
feeling moved to do that and taking that risk is
quite quite the story. And then knowing that we are
still talking about this stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
When you say your friends left church is because of that?
Are they in smaller denominations? Is are they major religion
like or is it the specific church that they're going
to that's that has those principles?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
I feel And probably Samantha will know more than I
or maybe even you Eaves. I don't know, but I
feel like she it's a there's so many fracturing within denominations.
It's a specific sect of Baptism, I think, but I
know it's not always the same. Like my my I
(34:45):
al was raised Presbyterian and right now my mom is
there's a more liberal I guess interpretation of Presbyterian that
she went down. My uncle went down a more conservative
interpretation of Presbyterians. And they're like fighting about it, and
he's saying he might leave the church. So I guess
(35:06):
what I'm saying is it's not I know, denominations can
break down in a couple of different ways, but it
is still a thing. And my friend, who I believe
is some version of Baptist, I'm not very religious, obvious,
she her church didn't allow women to preach, and she
(35:27):
just wasn't wasn't about it.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Not here for that understandably.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Well, we know that the Southern Baptist just went back
initially and separated. I think they created a whole new
level denomination this year, within the less than year and
a half because some churches have allowed for women to
become teachers. So they're like, they are no longer part
of Southern Baptists, so they had to kind of like
drag them out or remove them from that sect likes
(35:54):
as it continued to grow, and I know, like when
it comes to Western religions, specifically when it comes to Christianity,
it's all fracturing more and more and more and more
because the I will not allow this versus. But this
is maybe a'll be a new interpretation or maybe you've
always been interpreting the Bible wrong. Kind of conversations and
(36:17):
controversies have happened since its existence. We know that when
we talk about like the awakenings there because of like
the splintering as well as when we're talking about like
hell Fire Brimstone era, which is one of the awakenings.
But you know, like all of those conversations have become
the same conversation, the same controversy. It just becomes more
and more splintered. So there's Baptist is probably I will
(36:41):
say this, in my experience, Baptists have become one of
the fastest to splinter. I could say that, and the
Methodist may be able. Former Methodists may come after we'd
be like, noh, you don't understand, we're breaking apart faster, right,
like this level of like this sent They're like no h.
But in my in my experience, especially with the within
(37:02):
the US again, it's that conversation too that I've seen
the Southern Baptists splinter really quickly, very fast, and smaller,
dwindling down. So not dwindling down but existing, I guess.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
And there was a big there was recently a big
break but about LGBTQ plus people allowing them in the church,
and that made a lot of news. So it is
like still this conversation of who that quote that I
can't remember but was very well put of, like doesn't
God's words speak to everybody, like still a huge, a
(37:39):
huge factor in these splinters, in these interpretations of who
is allowed to be part of the church and who
is allowed to preach and spread that word.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
I mean, the conversation about salvation is such a hot
topic and then apocalypse.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Those two, right.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
They are break down so many of the denominations, even
within cathal and Protestantism, that's a still big conversation about salvation,
like the way of salvation, as well as the end
of the times what does this look like? And it's
constant debates.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
M I do find it.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Really fascinating in Jerna Lee's story because I was raised
religious and then went away from it m H. And she,
as you said, had sort of the opposite.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
But it's interesting to me because I remember having like
a complete breakdown as a nine year old and being like,
I lied to my teacher and it was a small why,
you know, But to me that was because of, you know,
the idea, even though I wasn't Catholic, but like that
confession of like you did a lie, it's bad, you
have to tell someone.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
But she was feeling it even without that.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
So I'm just very curious if they were outside forces,
if that's just like a human like a natural human
thing that makes you feel that way, because for me,
I thought it was religious. I was like, oh, God,
going to Hell.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
For Durina, I don't know where what it was for
that initial experience of the lie and feeling like she said,
the Spirit of God moved in power through my conscience.
That feels like a very like it was an embodied thing.
It just came from me, and I didn't know where
(39:23):
it came from, is what it sounds like.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Then.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Although later one of the people I think she was
hired out to one of those families was Catholic, so
they could have been impressing a lot upon her then,
But her the beginning of her awakening happened before that,
So yeah, I'm not so sure about the entire religious
(39:46):
underpinnings of that family that she was working for when
she told that lie. So maybe that was there, But
from the way she describes it, it seems like it
was a spontaneous reaction to something that just like she
was inspired by that just exhaled out of her spirit basically.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
Okay, and I might have missed it. Did she get
caught or did she confess to that lie to her
to that family.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I don't think she says anything about that in her autobiography,
Samantha like, she doesn't really talk about her saying anything
after she told the last She just says, I said yes,
but it wasn't true, and I told myself I wasn't
going to tell another lie. My instinct is to say
that she did it, confess to it to at least
(40:33):
the person that she lied to, just because it might
like the trouble that she would get in the position
might be great, right, you know, So I would imagine
she probably didn't admit to it after she told it.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Yeah, I just wondered because if had she had done
that and they used that as an opportunity, I'm sure
she would put that as part of her story, to
have a quote unquote witness to her or testify to
her essentially about her mistakes and grave sons. I just wondered.
Now there's a bigger question because I think, and this
is not anything to do with Jerina, just in overall experiences,
(41:06):
when I see adults or older people become converts, are
converting to more religious aspects, it helps explain the trouble
paths that they may have had, whether it's it was
my fault because I am human and that was not
looking for salvation or finding some way to be safe.
(41:26):
The need to be saved is so big that it
kind of brings you out of that it makes you
quote unquote clean, because who doesn't want to be told
you're remade and all the mistakes that you made is gone.
Now it's wiped away, and from that one it will
forever be wiped away. Just remember to ask for forgiveness.
And then there's this level that I've seen with adults
(41:49):
who have converted or quote unquote say that they've been saved.
It is it is some much needed restart. And I
understand that. I understand that to so many things, whether
it's you've lost somebody and you're like, oh, this is
why this happened, or you know, I had to go
through this to be this better person, hoping that you
are a better person. And I feel like people not
(42:12):
to criticize anyone, and I say this about myself, who
use my own past in this way. The more tragic
I'm gonna put this in quotes, or the hardships that
you felt like you've gone through, it if the more
that there is, the more that there has been, the
greater the story and the greater the renewal is it
(42:32):
kind of becomes a bigger testimony in your head, being
like no, wonder I had to go through this, you know,
does that make sense? Again, this has nothing to do
with Drena. This is just my thought process and how
people convert this way, you know, from being a child
to an adult and seeing like the flip flop of
people who don't understand what this might look like and
why it's important to them. That's just that conversation. And
(42:54):
then like having Darna really just step forward and preaching
in an at fear where she was told she was
not welcomed that on herself and coming back with like,
oh my god, well what did I do? What I do?
Feeling like that was the Holy Spirit, the Holy ghosts
as my people would say, moving her and of course
this is why the door opened. Yeah, and it like
(43:17):
it just makes that validation even bigger and it's amazing too.
But like having that can heal so many people in
different ways.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Yeah, I mean when you say that, that just that
makes me wonder what would have Darna been? Has she
not found religion, if she did have mental illness and
if she still would have dealt with suicidal ideation, right.
Speaker 4 (43:41):
Like, if that saved her, he's amazing.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Yeah mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
And it and in her words it seems like it
did because she said it was the arm of God
or whatever it was. So yeah, I mean not only
was she a pioneer, I mean for her own personal sake,
like her experience with finding God in this way might
(44:06):
have been very fortuit is for her, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
And I do think one of the comforts of religion
is that we live in a world that feels very
out of your control, out of your like you don't
have power to control it a lot. And so when
I see people sometimes talk about it, it.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Feels like.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
It's like a way of saying, well, I did everything
I could, but there's some things I just can't control.
But I love that Jarina in that moment stood up
like she did it almost the opposite of like I'm
gonna stand up, I'm gonna do this, I'm going to
deliver this sermon, sit back down. So it's almost like
she was making her own path in my interpretation. But
(44:54):
also I feel that that is what religion why comforts
so many people is that you can do like everything
and some things are just out of your control.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Yeah m hm.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
When you were talking about her standing up in that
moment and making her own path, I was just thinking
about the people like who are like I made this
role for myself, you know, you.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
Know how the language around like the corporate boss girl
and go make it.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
Yeah, yeah, that's what Jarina was doing.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
She was ahead of our times over time, okay.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
And that is also just a great scene cinematically, a
great cinematic scene. I had a really good time reading
and that part of her autobiography. So having says that
I will at the caveat that. Yes, everyone go read
her autobiography. You know, I will give y all the
(45:55):
link to it online so y'all can get.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
To it directly.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
But I will say there are great moments, and in
some moments is drags. It's one of those experiences because
there are moments like that one that are really fun
to read, and then there is well, I did one
hundred and seventy eight sermons, and I walked twenty two
and twenty one miles and then I went to Philadelphia
and then I walked down the road and I did
(46:21):
this sermon and then I.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Met these two people.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Oh, like, it is a lot. It gets to be
a slog in some moments, y'all. I'm gonna be real.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Got some issues, It's got some pacing it. Thank you.
Let's let's talk craz.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Yeah that that was the critic in you coming out.
I love to see it, but it definitely does. So
your eyes might glaze over in those moments, but I will.
I'm grateful for it existing because we learned so much
about her day to day and how she was feeling
about it, and I wonder if it was a comfort
for her. I mean, it might just be part of
her personality. But she kept so any notes on the
(47:00):
things that she did that I don't do, and I'm
just like, wow, Like, there is no way I would
be able to recall these things with such great detail
about you know, in my life, and I don't keep
such detailed notes day to day, like in a diary
kind of way, about each person I'm at each place.
I went so grateful for her knowing that her story
(47:20):
was important as it was happening, and that she was
supposed to record it, and that she was supposed to
publish it.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yes, absolutely, and this was thanks again us for bringing
this story to us. This was a great one and obviously, yep,
we have a lot to say about religion.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
So where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Y'all can find me on Instagram at not Apologizing. That's
pretty much the only social media I'm on right now.
But you can get in contact with me at Evesjeffcoat
dot com. That's spelled Yvees jeff Coat exactly like it sounds.
You can also find me on many many other episodes
(48:03):
of Sminty here doing female First, talking about women who
were pioneers in history. And you can catch me on
on Theme, which is a podcast about black storytelling.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, that's it, yes, and listeners go check out all
of that stuff if you have not already, Thanks as
always Eves for being with us, and you can contact
us listeners if you would like. You can email us
at Steffandia mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on
Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've never told you. We
(48:37):
have a YouTube, we have a tea public store. We
have a book you can get wherever you get your books.
Thanks as always here a super producer, Christina executed producer
and a contributed jolly thank you and thanks to you
for listening. Stuff I Never told you is production iHeartRadio.
For more podcast from My Heart Radio, you can check
out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to favorite shows. No
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
I'll Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today it
is time for another edition of Female First, which means
we are joined by the wonderful, the magnificent Eves Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thank you, happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
It's so nice to have you. We were very very
lucky listeners. We got to hang out with Eve's I
R L as they say, in Washington, DC recently and
it was so great. It was so great seeing you.
We did a panel together on Better Banter. Both Samantha
(00:50):
and I said that you were a very steady presence
when we were so anxious, and we really appreciated that.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So it was a it was a really it was
a good time. It was a good time.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yeah, and we weren't there that long, but I feel
like we got a good amount of like balance of
our time working in our time, like actually being able
to step outside.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And breathe fresh air. Yeah, so that was that was nice.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
I feel like we were bonding. Maybe I was bonding
a little too much.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
No, no, no, I mean what would life be if
you don't actually try to connect with the people you're
interacting with.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
It's true, but you know some people don't, so you know, like, yeah,
this is but it was amazing. Before I get too
negative about myself, but it was amazing. It was such
a good time. I feel like we got to meet
new people. Uh it was nice having you and around
because you are the extrovert of our group. Yeah, you were.
You were the one that would like walk get into
a place, immediately start talking to a stranger. And and
(01:47):
I would just look at each other like do we
stand here, do we join the conversation?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
What do we do?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I'm in denial right now because I would not describe
myself as an extrovert.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
For the event.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
You really were. You went out there and I was like, ah,
she's talking to everybody. I'm just gonna sit back and watch.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Maybe on some spectrum, somebody's spectrum, and that's fair our spectrum.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah, you're very much extraverting the three of us.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Maybe it's like the networking spectrum.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
You were very extroverted, and we were like Samantha and
I were like, don't look our way.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Looking down trying to find our footsteps and that fall,
but don't don't look up. They're staring at you. At
one point, Anie did say, don't make eye contact move.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I did. I know why that way.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
It was for a good reason, but I feel like
that's one of those those comments.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I was like you, oh yeah, yes, us. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
For listeners, y' all know how it is when you're
around a bunch of people who are new and.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Old who uh you know, I can get kind of awkward.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
In situations when you haven't seen somebody in a really
long time, and you gotta stay per professional.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
You do you do?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
So, Samath and I did a kind of brief recap
of our thoughts about the trip, but Eves, do you
have any any thoughts you'd like to share about our
time in DC.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
I think it was just nice to do a panel
together overall, because we've never done a panel together before,
and y'all have been doing the show for a really
long time, and I've been coming on doing female first
for a really long time. So I think it just
made sense for us to talk about banter because that's
what we've been doing for so long. But was also
nice to get out of these little rectangular windows and
(03:37):
into real life and talk to people and talk to
each other. So I think that was a breath of
fresh air. That's just a general comment for me, You
would think that we would have done something like this
together before, but we haven't.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Yeah, and I feel like we did get a lot
of good feedback from people saying that we did a
good job. We had good banter nah.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Yeah, And I think that the conference has it available
via podcast now and I think people might have to
pay for that, but if folks are interested in hearing
the panel, it's called better Banter that we did at
podcast Movement.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
You can listen to that. Yes, I almost.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Had a heart attack this morning when I opened my
email box and I had fifty emails.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I'm assuming that that mistake because I sat there, I
was like, what is happening? Did I do? And then
because I was half asleep when I saw that, I
was like did I just imagine that? Because I quick
quickly deleted all of them, and then I was like, wait,
did I dream that?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I love to know that.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
You that's how you handle working. That's yeah, you do.
You don't try to check the veracity. If you really
need this thing, if it's legitimate, you just toss it
in the trash. Everybody, the really important letter in the mail.
When you see those scam letters in the mail, you
know the ones that try to make look official where
you have to tear the sides off and my like
hand ran in the front. Do you just you just
(05:05):
automatically throw them in the trash.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
It's according to whether or not where it's from and
who is from. I'm like, if I don't know how
you would be, Like, if it's a stranger from, I'm like, yeah, no, I.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Hope you haven't thrown any checks away.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
If someone's sending me a random check, I'm gonna think
that's a fraud too, Like the amount of fraud that
has happened with mail, especially that I'm like, I'm not
trying to get me. I'm not gonna do this. I'm
not that's the level I'm at to be fair. But yeah, no,
Like when those emails there are all repeat from like
a generic I was like, yeah, this is just feeling
up my inbugs and any notes. I don't like notifications
(05:40):
like that, So I'm like, it's got to go.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
It's got I immediately often lament no one reads my emails,
and this is I would be giving me further doubts.
Just to clarify, basically, podcast movement since a notification every
time they upload it one of the panels for you
to listen to.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
So it was that? What that was? Yeah, I thought
it was a mistake. Yeah, great, thank you.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, but it was fIF It was like forty five
emails and I had five other things, I think, But
it was a lot.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
It was a lot.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
It was a lot. Y'all need you to condense that
to whomever sent those emails.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Thank you for doing your job. What did that miss?
What has gone wrong?
Speaker 4 (06:24):
It reported me? I've been banned from podcasts.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Damn damn it? Who it happened onto my next career.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I'm really excited to talk about the person you brought
today is because we talked about religion a lot on
this show, a lot, a lot, a lot, and I
just thought this was a really fascinating story.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So who did you bring for us today? So I
brought Jerina Lee.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I am excited to talk about her too, because y'all
talk about religion a lot, but I feel like I
haven't brought a lot of religious people on for female first,
So I am excited too. Jarina Lee was the first
woman preacher in the African Methodist Episcopal Church, and she
was the first Black American woman to publish an autobiography,
and those two things are huge and just kind of disparate.
(07:24):
Like she has this big religious background, and I think
the autobiography thing just kind of happened tangentially. And I
don't want to get ahead of myself here, but I
just I love that she did write about herself in
the ways that she did, so I'm grateful.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
For her doing that. So yeah, should we get into it.
Let's get into this.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Jerina Lee was born on February eleventh, seventeen eighty three,
in Cape May, New Jersey. So she said her parents
were free and black and their family was poor.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
When she was about.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Seven years old, she was hired out. So parents sometimes
did this to make extra money. They would send their
children away to work so that they can earn money
for the family. This is what happened with Darina. She
was taken about sixty miles away, and she had to
do domestic work for the Sharp family. Throughout her childhood
(08:21):
and her young adulthood, she was placed with different families
and she lived away from home. She said that her
parents were quote wholly ignorant of the knowledge of God.
So by that, what I would assume she means is
that they weren't teaching her about Christianity. There was no
(08:42):
Bible around the house, there were no other forms of
spirituality that they were invested in themselves and probably teaching
her as well. But she still turns to spirituality when
she's young. So it seems like, kind of early on,
we're already seeing these self imposed instances of her having
like come to religion moments. She has a lot of
(09:04):
those throughout her life, but it happens really early on,
and I'm just I'm thinking about that, I'm a child
of Southern Baptist faith, Black Southern Baptist faith, and you know,
that's kind of that's an inherited thing a lot of
the time, and it was for me. So that's not
(09:24):
even close to the experience that I had. I was like,
what else is out there like this? You know, isn't
resonating with me that much. So thinking about her not
having any sort of spirituality in her life and having
these really big, really big emphatic moments is very interesting
to me. But I'll talk about that moment she had
(09:45):
early on. So she says that she lies to the
woman she's working for. She tells her that she did
some work when she really had it. And then this
is a quote from her. She says, the spirit of
God moved in power through my content and told me
I was a wretched sinner on this account. So great
was the impression and so strong were the feelings of
(10:07):
guilt that I promised in my heart that I would
not tell another lie. So she's like a lie, but
that felt horrible, like.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
She was not she was.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
She seemed a little I don't know if you would
call that type a or what, but she definitely had
a lot of strong feelings just because she told a
tiny lie. And I can only imagine like she was tired,
she was young, and she was working for a family,
and she was away from her family. I can't imagine
the amount of separation trauma like labor trauma, economic trauma
(10:38):
that was happening in that moment. And she's she is
beating herself up for telling what is seemingly a small lie.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
I think we can.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Already start to understand her personality and how intense it
is from that description. But she said her heart still
grew harder after this, and God kept working on her.
So in eighteen oh four, she goes to hear a
Presbyterian missionary preach at one afternoon meeting, and he reads
(11:07):
the Psalms and she has this renewed conviction after having
that heart and heart, she's like, I got this renewed conviction,
and she says, Lord, I am vile, conceived in sin, born,
unholy and unclean, sprung from man who's guilty. Fall corrupts
the race and taints us all. So she's had this
moment and when she realizes her sin, this helps her
(11:31):
feel the weight of her sins. But she's still young.
She doesn't really know how to deal with that, and
she tries to die by suicide. And what she says.
She talks about this moment in a little bit more detail.
I won't go into the details here, but she says
that it was the unseen arm of God that saved her.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And she does continue.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
In other moments of her life to struggle with suicidal ideation.
But a little while later, she goes to Philly and
she goes to an African Methodist Episcopal church there and
she hears Reverend Richard Allen preach. So he is the
reverend who founds the am Church. And in this really
(12:17):
dramatic moment, she explains accepting God, and she says that
instant it appeared to me as if a garment which
had entirely enveloped my whole person, even to my fingers,
ends split at the crown of my head, and was
stripped away from me, passing like a shadow from my sight,
when the glory of God seemed to cover me and
(12:39):
its stead. I was really struck by her writing in
that moment. This is something that she wrote in her autobiography.
It's so image heavy, it's so image rich, it's so
like fanciful, it's so imaginative. But it doesn't seem like
she's just doing this as she's like, no, this is
(13:01):
what I really felt. This is what I really saw.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
In the moment.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And there are other moments throughout her autobiography when she
really hones in on those details of the visions that
she's having and the feelings that she's feeling. She also
has visions of Hell that she describes and of Satan,
and these are moments that really presses her deeper into
(13:26):
her religious journey. But she moves along and she's feeling
like she's been forgiven for her sins and she's converted
to God, and at a certain point she gets to
a place in her journey where she stops feeling fear
and guilt and distress, and she starts wanting to know
(13:47):
more of the right way of the Lord. So I'll
stop here and say that historians and scholars who have
done research on her and her story, there is some
speculation around what her mental state was at the time.
They have said that she might have had mental illness,
(14:09):
but that is just derived from all of her descriptions
of what she was going through. So the suicidal ideation
ideas around sin the fact that she was separated from
her family so young and had to do domestic labor
in other people's homes.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
People were enslaved around her, so she was.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Not enslaved, but this was during chattel slavery was happening
around her, So that's unclear. But it is something that
historians have thought about and have speculated around, but it's
not anything that I would feel comfortable saying is one
way or the other, because they.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Haven't said that.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
But about four or five years later, she's drawn to
preach and she tells Reverend Richard Allen, the founder of
the Ami Church, that the Lord told her to preach.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
She was called to it.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
She got signs and she is supposed to preach. She's
really feeling in her spirit. But he's like, no, okay,
women can't do that. I know y'all have seen this
a lot throughout all of the things that y'all have
talked about in history, where it's like, Okay, you're coming
to ask me this, but you know, women can't do that.
(15:28):
That's what he said to her. He said, yeah, that's
not allowed in our practice.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
He was also like, yeah, I can't remember her name,
but he said, yeah, this other woman came to me
and asked me that too, But you know she was
wildent too, like she can't do that, and you can't
do that. But she's thinking. Jerinaly is thinking this. She
says for us, unseemly as it may appear nowadays, for
a woman to preach, it should be remembered that nothing
(15:56):
is impossible with God. And why should it be impossible,
heterodox or improper for a woman to preach, seeing that
the Savior died for the woman as well as for
the man.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
I don't she has a point.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
I mean, if you look at the logic of it,
it's like this is for all of us. We're trying
to spread this message. Why are you keeping me from
trying to do the work that needs to be done here?
If you're trying to evangelize, if you're trying to bring
more people into the faith, if you're trying to get
more people to sign up to come to am church
and you know be saved, then why you won't let
(16:33):
me preach like I'm called to it? If God can
call you to it as a man, then why can't
God call me to it?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
So she calls that out.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
She recognizes how much it doesn't make sense, and that
spirit of wanting to preach remains with her, but there
is something that disrupts that, and that's when she marries
Joseph Lee, which she does in eighteen eleven, and he's
a pastor in snow Hill, which is a community that's
just outside of Philly, and Dreina doesn't know anybody in
(17:04):
snow Hill besides her husband, so it's hard. She's having
a hard time adjusting because customs there are different and
she doesn't have friends to hang out with.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
It's just like her husband's preaching.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
He's doing this thing that she couldn't even do just now,
and she's kind of having to sideline herself for him.
She asked him to go to Philadelphia with her, but
he doesn't want to leave his congregations.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
So she's like, well, guess I gotta stay here. That's
what I got to do as his wife.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
So she acquiesces to his ministry and she has two
children with him. She has several children, she has more
than that, but they die, and she has two children
who survive, and in eighteen seventeen he dies as well,
her husband. So at this point, there's not much that
(17:55):
she writes about her marriage to her husband. And I've
also seen history talk about this where it's like they
don't really know anything about in detail about her relationship
with her husband, because she doesn't talk about it in
her autobiography. And that's one of the main sources that
is like the main source of information about her.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
But it's just it is the shortest.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
It is the shortest part of the entire autobiography, which
I am very curious about. I would love to know
more about it. But she goes into such great detail
about other parts of her life, and there is such
little detail about her marriage to her husband, how she
felt about him, what they did on a day to
day basis, where he was from, how he grew up,
(18:40):
how he thought about things. You know, it's none of
that in there. So I can't really tell y'all much
about her marriage to her husband, but after he dies,
she clearly during this time, it's pretty clear if you
read in between the lines, that this whole time she
was still pining to preach, because right after he dies
she basically this is eight years after she first asks
(19:03):
Reverend Richard Allen to preach. She's feeling that fire again
and she's willing to speak up about it. And Reverend
Allen is now the bishop of the AMA Church in America.
He becomes that in eighteen sixteen, and one day there's
another reverend named Richard Williams who's preaching at Bethel Church
and at one point they describe it as him seeming
(19:25):
to have lost the spirit. I don't know what that
sermon was. I don't think there's record of that sermon.
None of Jerina's sermons are extant either, so that is
another thing I would love to see, like what her
sermons actually were.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
She talks about what she talked about in them a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
But full sermons are not available but it is said
that this guy's sermon wasn't going so well. He had
the people in the first half, but in the second
half he kind of lost them. And Jerina's like, well,
I got something to say. I'm feeling the spirit. So
she up and she starts preaching on the passage that
he was preaching, which is a bold move. Yeah, yeah,
(20:07):
you know, I feel like that's even a bold move
for people nowadays. Like, just think about a corporate office setting.
You're like, this speech is not going well.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
A man full of men or like I got some.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Boss man is speaking and you step in and say, like, actually,
this isn't going so well.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Let me finish this for you. Let me take the
top off of your hands.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
And then now think about that as a free black woman, right,
I mean, granted it was Philly, you know, and that
was a place where lots of abolitionists were. There was
a spirit of freedom and independence and anti slavery and
all of that. So consider the context, but also.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Consider the context, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
So she is up and she preaches, she does her thing,
and then she says, now scared, She talks about how
she's frightened after so she felt it at the moment,
but right after she was like, oh, oh, what did
I do? And she thought she might be kicked out
of the church, which is a fair assumption to make.
But Bishop Allen gets up and he tells the congregation
(21:14):
that she asked him eight years ago to preach, so
he acknowledges what happened before, and he tells the congregation
He's like, and I said no, she asked me to preach,
but I said no. But now he believes that she's
called to the work. He's like, I've seen I've witnessed this.
I've seen the evidence of you really being a good
(21:37):
preacher and being able to do this. And that's a
reversal because not only was the first part of her
getting up a total anomaly and a risk for her,
but like to have the man who has such a
position of power over the church and in the church
and has already said no to her to affirm but
(22:00):
what she's driven to do in this moment also something
that is so deeply personal and spiritual, probably felt very vindicated.
I mean, I'm speculating, but you know that is huge.
That's a huge deal for that to happen like that
in that moment and immediately it's not like she was
punished then and then later on he was like, hmm,
I think I was wrong that second time. It happens immediately,
(22:23):
So I think that's a very fascinating moment in her story.
Is clearly a turning point because this is where we
get to her first, he's basically given her the approval
to keep preaching. She feels he relieve about that. It
gets her the strength to keep preaching. But she's still
not ordained technically, but she is allowed to preach, and
(22:48):
Bishop Allen supports her travel and her preaching, and he
and his wife babysat her kids. So that's really helpful
in her being able to go out and preach in
different places. She can't preach in the church, she's not
ordained to do that. So this is where we get
to this next phase of her life. She is, you know,
(23:10):
had these come to God moments. She's been married and
now her husband died, and now she's like fulfilling this
thing that has been an inkling in her and growing
and growing and growing, and now it's finally blossomed. And
she goes out and she starts traveling around and preaching
in friends and family members houses, meeting houses, schools, and courthouses.
(23:34):
So being an itinerant preacher was a big thing for
people at the time. There were men who were doing it,
and Drina Lee is doing it now too. It was
still difficult for women and going out and preaching, especially
during times of slavery and Maryland was a slave state,
and she was going to Maryland to preach, so she
(23:58):
was going to places where it was risky and dangerous
for her to be speaking in front.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Of these crowds.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
But traveling around preaching from place to place, you know,
you had these different denominations who were trying to get
people on their sides. And so there were the Baptists
over here and people were coming to the Baptist and
it was like, we're in election season, so it's like
you trying to its you trying to capture more votes,
to try to bring more people into a voter registration process.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
It's kind of like they were.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
She was out there knocking on doors, she was out
there given sermons and all kinds of places and hopeful
about bringing as many people in as possible to her faith.
She really felt called to the am Church when she
she was kind of skeptical about Methodist Church when she
first went, and then she had a connection kind of
In the beginning of her story, she talks about that.
(24:50):
So she's traveling around to all these different places and
giving sermons, but she has got to make some money
to take care of her children and get back home
at some point. So she opens the school and she
says that she teaches eleven students, and eventually she does
get enough money to go back to Philly. She has
(25:13):
a sketchy journey by ship. She says it was pretty perilous,
but she gets to Philly on November twelfth, eighteen twenty one,
and she still continues traveling in the area and beyond.
And one of my favorite things about her autobiography is
how specific she is. She talks about walking miles and miles.
(25:38):
She's going by wagon and by boat to some places.
She talks about giving multiple sermons in you know, a day,
and she even goes to Canada. She is preaching to
all different kinds of congregations too, So there are black
congregations and she really wants to speak to black people,
but there are also mixed congregations, which wasn't even a.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Thing that people really wanted.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
They didn't want women speaking to mixed crowds at the time,
especially black women. And you know, she's traveling to states where,
like I said, Maryland, people are enslaved in Maryland, and
she's preaching to enslaved people as well, so enslavers would
allow enslaved people to go to sermons. Sometimes enslaved people
(26:27):
were walking many, many miles to get to her sermons
and then walking back to the plantations to labor in
the morning.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
And Jarena kind of justifies.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
A lot of the bad things happening around, like antagonism
and hatred by calling it the work of the devil sometimes.
But in eighteen twenty three, she goes back to Philly
and the bishop offers her a preaching position at Bethel Church.
But there are still folks there who are against a
woman preaching. So this is something that still comes up.
(27:02):
She she's traveling a lot of places and family members
are putting on her on, people she knows are putting
her on, and she's being allowed to preach in some places,
but she still is facing a lot of opposition and
places to her being a woman preaching.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
It is the case in her.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Autobiography as it is in a lot of other enslaved people,
something that I'm fascinated by. It's like a lot of
the times they don't dwell on the antagonism that they
were facing. They're not like a lot of the time
enslaved people who are like in contact with a lot
of people who are traveling around the US or not
even enslaved.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
People, black people who are free.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
If they're talking about traveling around the US during slavery times,
like they don't. Sometimes they don't dwell on the moments
where they're like this happened when I was in this
place and I was in grave danger and it was
so risky and they almost killed me. You just know
that there are tons of stories like that in between
all the moments that they are talking about. And she
(28:05):
doesn't really dwell on that too much, although she does
acknowledge the difficulties that she had, But she gives all
kinds of sermons, and once she's even invited to an
enslaver's house to give three funeral sermons for two adults
and a child.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
So I'm trying to.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Put myself in her shoes and think about how focused
she is on her mission of imparting the knowledge and
the wisdom of God and the Church on to anybody
and everybody, including people who have done really vile things,
people who hate the side of her and want her
did people who consider other people property.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
You know, she is so called to her work that
she travels far.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
She goes into detail about the number of miles that
she walks and the number of sermons that she gives,
and it's thousands of miles that she walks over a
period of time and over one hundred sermons that she
gives over a period of time.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So it's a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
And of course she's invested in that spiritual path and preaching,
but she's also invested in anti slavery. She's not like
a really big or it doesn't seem like based on records,
that she was an abolitionist who was constantly working for
the abolition of slavery, but she does, in eighteen thirty
(29:40):
four go to an anti slavery meeting in Buffalo, New York.
And in her autobiography she talks about how horrible and
violent and wicked the institution of chattel slavery is. But
this is where we get to her other first. So
in eighteen thirty six she publishes the first edition of
her autobiography, which is the life and religious experience of
(30:01):
Jerina Lee, a colored lady, giving an account of her
call to preach the Gospel. And that's what makes her
the first Black American woman to publish an autobiography. In
eighteen forty four, she submits an expanded autobiography to the
Amme Church and their book committee, but they ignore her request.
It takes her a few years to get it back
up and off the ground, but in eighteen forty nine
(30:22):
she publishes an extended version of her autobiography with another press.
And this is one that everybody can access online.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
You can go and read it.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
And like I said, she gets pretty meticulous in her
own record keeping and a lot of moments, it really
feels like a diary, like it's a journal, Like I
could see her dating these things. She keeps dates people,
the names of people that she meets. It is very detailed.
She gets into the weeds about where she travels and
(30:54):
who she sees.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
And all of that.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
And at the end of the autobiography she says this
ps pleased to pardon errors and excuse all imperfections, as
I have been deprived of the advantages of education, which
I hope all will appreciate, as I am measurably a
self taught person. I hope the contents of this work
(31:17):
may be instrumental in leaving a lasting impression upon the
minds of the impenitent. May it prove to be encouraging
to the justified soul and a comfort to the sanctified.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So Jerina.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
In eighteen fifty three, she speaks at the American Anti
Slavery Society's convention in Philly. But as is unfortunately the
case for a lot of people, she is poor.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
At the end of her life.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
There was a report in the records of the Pennsylvania
Abolition Society about her, and it said that in her
last days she depended on the contributions of others. And
it also says that a little while before she died,
she said she wished she was done with begging. She
died on February fifth, eighteen sixty four, in Philly, and
(32:06):
her legacy and story were rediscovered around the nineteen eighties.
Because her work kind of faded out of the consciousness
for a while, as often happens in other people's stories.
And in twenty sixteen, though the am Church ordained her
posthumously at the fiftieth Quadrunial Session of the General Conference,
(32:29):
so she did get recognition by the Ami Church, and
of course all thankfully all of the historians and scholars
have unearthed more information about her and still are putting
out more information about her and researching her. So that
is great, even though her legacy kind of faded for
a little while. What a story, right, And I mean, yeah,
(33:03):
there's so many instances she has where I can just
visualize this happening and the importance of it. And we
were discussing when we were together, and do you see
the importance as we always talk about of having things
like an autobiography or a diary or what have you.
But it is fascinating too because we do talk about
(33:26):
religion a lot on this show, and this is still
a thing.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
This is still.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Like I had to we did a whole episode and
some of you are gonna be like, duh, but we
did a whole episode where I was like, hey, and
a woman be the pope And the answer was no,
Like answer is no, But it's still a point of
conversation and contention in so many religions, and I know
friends who have left churches because of they won't allow
(33:54):
women to preach or what have you. So having this
feeling moved to do that and taking that risk is
quite quite the story. And then knowing that we are
still talking about this stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
When you say your friends left church is because of that?
Are they in smaller denominations? Is are they major religion
like or is it the specific church that they're going
to that's that has those principles?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
I feel And probably Samantha will know more than I
or maybe even you Eaves. I don't know, but I
feel like she it's a there's so many fracturing within denominations.
It's a specific sect of Baptism, I think, but I
know it's not always the same. Like my my I
(34:45):
al was raised Presbyterian and right now my mom is
there's a more liberal I guess interpretation of Presbyterian that
she went down. My uncle went down a more conservative
interpretation of Presbyterians. And they're like fighting about it, and
he's saying he might leave the church. So I guess
(35:06):
what I'm saying is it's not I know, denominations can
break down in a couple of different ways, but it
is still a thing. And my friend, who I believe
is some version of Baptist, I'm not very religious, obvious,
she her church didn't allow women to preach, and she
(35:27):
just wasn't wasn't about it.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Not here for that understandably.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Well, we know that the Southern Baptist just went back
initially and separated. I think they created a whole new
level denomination this year, within the less than year and
a half because some churches have allowed for women to
become teachers. So they're like, they are no longer part
of Southern Baptists, so they had to kind of like
drag them out or remove them from that sect likes
(35:54):
as it continued to grow, and I know, like when
it comes to Western religions, specifically when it comes to Christianity,
it's all fracturing more and more and more and more
because the I will not allow this versus. But this
is maybe a'll be a new interpretation or maybe you've
always been interpreting the Bible wrong. Kind of conversations and
(36:17):
controversies have happened since its existence. We know that when
we talk about like the awakenings there because of like
the splintering as well as when we're talking about like
hell Fire Brimstone era, which is one of the awakenings.
But you know, like all of those conversations have become
the same conversation, the same controversy. It just becomes more
and more splintered. So there's Baptist is probably I will
(36:41):
say this, in my experience, Baptists have become one of
the fastest to splinter. I could say that, and the
Methodist may be able. Former Methodists may come after we'd
be like, noh, you don't understand, we're breaking apart faster, right,
like this level of like this sent They're like no h.
But in my in my experience, especially with the within
(37:02):
the US again, it's that conversation too that I've seen
the Southern Baptists splinter really quickly, very fast, and smaller,
dwindling down. So not dwindling down but existing, I guess.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
And there was a big there was recently a big
break but about LGBTQ plus people allowing them in the church,
and that made a lot of news. So it is
like still this conversation of who that quote that I
can't remember but was very well put of, like doesn't
God's words speak to everybody, like still a huge, a
(37:39):
huge factor in these splinters, in these interpretations of who
is allowed to be part of the church and who
is allowed to preach and spread that word.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
I mean, the conversation about salvation is such a hot
topic and then apocalypse.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Those two, right.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
They are break down so many of the denominations, even
within cathal and Protestantism, that's a still big conversation about salvation,
like the way of salvation, as well as the end
of the times what does this look like? And it's
constant debates.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
M I do find it.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Really fascinating in Jerna Lee's story because I was raised
religious and then went away from it m H. And she,
as you said, had sort of the opposite.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
But it's interesting to me because I remember having like
a complete breakdown as a nine year old and being like,
I lied to my teacher and it was a small why,
you know, But to me that was because of, you know,
the idea, even though I wasn't Catholic, but like that
confession of like you did a lie, it's bad, you
have to tell someone.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
But she was feeling it even without that.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
So I'm just very curious if they were outside forces,
if that's just like a human like a natural human
thing that makes you feel that way, because for me,
I thought it was religious. I was like, oh, God,
going to Hell.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
For Durina, I don't know where what it was for
that initial experience of the lie and feeling like she said,
the Spirit of God moved in power through my conscience.
That feels like a very like it was an embodied thing.
It just came from me, and I didn't know where
(39:23):
it came from, is what it sounds like.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Then.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Although later one of the people I think she was
hired out to one of those families was Catholic, so
they could have been impressing a lot upon her then,
But her the beginning of her awakening happened before that,
So yeah, I'm not so sure about the entire religious
(39:46):
underpinnings of that family that she was working for when
she told that lie. So maybe that was there, But
from the way she describes it, it seems like it
was a spontaneous reaction to something that just like she
was inspired by that just exhaled out of her spirit basically.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
Okay, and I might have missed it. Did she get
caught or did she confess to that lie to her
to that family.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I don't think she says anything about that in her autobiography,
Samantha like, she doesn't really talk about her saying anything
after she told the last She just says, I said yes,
but it wasn't true, and I told myself I wasn't
going to tell another lie. My instinct is to say
that she did it, confess to it to at least
(40:33):
the person that she lied to, just because it might
like the trouble that she would get in the position
might be great, right, you know, So I would imagine
she probably didn't admit to it after she told it.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Yeah, I just wondered because if had she had done
that and they used that as an opportunity, I'm sure
she would put that as part of her story, to
have a quote unquote witness to her or testify to
her essentially about her mistakes and grave sons. I just wondered.
Now there's a bigger question because I think, and this
is not anything to do with Jerina, just in overall experiences,
(41:06):
when I see adults or older people become converts, are
converting to more religious aspects, it helps explain the trouble
paths that they may have had, whether it's it was
my fault because I am human and that was not
looking for salvation or finding some way to be safe.
(41:26):
The need to be saved is so big that it
kind of brings you out of that it makes you
quote unquote clean, because who doesn't want to be told
you're remade and all the mistakes that you made is gone.
Now it's wiped away, and from that one it will
forever be wiped away. Just remember to ask for forgiveness.
And then there's this level that I've seen with adults
(41:49):
who have converted or quote unquote say that they've been saved.
It is it is some much needed restart. And I
understand that. I understand that to so many things, whether
it's you've lost somebody and you're like, oh, this is
why this happened, or you know, I had to go
through this to be this better person, hoping that you
are a better person. And I feel like people not
(42:12):
to criticize anyone, and I say this about myself, who
use my own past in this way. The more tragic
I'm gonna put this in quotes, or the hardships that
you felt like you've gone through, it if the more
that there is, the more that there has been, the
greater the story and the greater the renewal is it
(42:32):
kind of becomes a bigger testimony in your head, being
like no, wonder I had to go through this, you know,
does that make sense? Again, this has nothing to do
with Drena. This is just my thought process and how
people convert this way, you know, from being a child
to an adult and seeing like the flip flop of
people who don't understand what this might look like and
why it's important to them. That's just that conversation. And
(42:54):
then like having Darna really just step forward and preaching
in an at fear where she was told she was
not welcomed that on herself and coming back with like,
oh my god, well what did I do? What I do?
Feeling like that was the Holy Spirit, the Holy ghosts
as my people would say, moving her and of course
this is why the door opened. Yeah, and it like
(43:17):
it just makes that validation even bigger and it's amazing too.
But like having that can heal so many people in
different ways.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Yeah, I mean when you say that, that just that
makes me wonder what would have Darna been? Has she
not found religion, if she did have mental illness and
if she still would have dealt with suicidal ideation, right.
Speaker 4 (43:41):
Like, if that saved her, he's amazing.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Yeah mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
And it and in her words it seems like it
did because she said it was the arm of God
or whatever it was. So yeah, I mean not only
was she a pioneer, I mean for her own personal sake,
like her experience with finding God in this way might
(44:06):
have been very fortuit is for her, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
And I do think one of the comforts of religion
is that we live in a world that feels very
out of your control, out of your like you don't
have power to control it a lot. And so when
I see people sometimes talk about it, it.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Feels like.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
It's like a way of saying, well, I did everything
I could, but there's some things I just can't control.
But I love that Jarina in that moment stood up
like she did it almost the opposite of like I'm
gonna stand up, I'm gonna do this, I'm going to
deliver this sermon, sit back down. So it's almost like
she was making her own path in my interpretation. But
(44:54):
also I feel that that is what religion why comforts
so many people is that you can do like everything
and some things are just out of your control.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Yeah m hm.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
When you were talking about her standing up in that
moment and making her own path, I was just thinking
about the people like who are like I made this
role for myself, you know, you.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
Know how the language around like the corporate boss girl
and go make it.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
Yeah, yeah, that's what Jarina was doing.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
She was ahead of our times over time, okay.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
And that is also just a great scene cinematically, a
great cinematic scene. I had a really good time reading
and that part of her autobiography. So having says that
I will at the caveat that. Yes, everyone go read
her autobiography. You know, I will give y all the
(45:55):
link to it online so y'all can get.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
To it directly.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
But I will say there are great moments, and in
some moments is drags. It's one of those experiences because
there are moments like that one that are really fun
to read, and then there is well, I did one
hundred and seventy eight sermons, and I walked twenty two
and twenty one miles and then I went to Philadelphia
and then I walked down the road and I did
(46:21):
this sermon and then I.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Met these two people.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Oh, like, it is a lot. It gets to be
a slog in some moments, y'all. I'm gonna be real.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Got some issues, It's got some pacing it. Thank you.
Let's let's talk craz.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Yeah that that was the critic in you coming out.
I love to see it, but it definitely does. So
your eyes might glaze over in those moments, but I will.
I'm grateful for it existing because we learned so much
about her day to day and how she was feeling
about it, and I wonder if it was a comfort
for her. I mean, it might just be part of
her personality. But she kept so any notes on the
(47:00):
things that she did that I don't do, and I'm
just like, wow, Like, there is no way I would
be able to recall these things with such great detail
about you know, in my life, and I don't keep
such detailed notes day to day, like in a diary
kind of way, about each person I'm at each place.
I went so grateful for her knowing that her story
(47:20):
was important as it was happening, and that she was
supposed to record it, and that she was supposed to
publish it.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yes, absolutely, and this was thanks again us for bringing
this story to us. This was a great one and obviously, yep,
we have a lot to say about religion.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
So where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Y'all can find me on Instagram at not Apologizing. That's
pretty much the only social media I'm on right now.
But you can get in contact with me at Evesjeffcoat
dot com. That's spelled Yvees jeff Coat exactly like it sounds.
You can also find me on many many other episodes
(48:03):
of Sminty here doing female First, talking about women who
were pioneers in history. And you can catch me on
on Theme, which is a podcast about black storytelling.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, that's it, yes, and listeners go check out all
of that stuff if you have not already, Thanks as
always Eves for being with us, and you can contact
us listeners if you would like. You can email us
at Steffandia mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on
Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've never told you. We
(48:37):
have a YouTube, we have a tea public store. We
have a book you can get wherever you get your books.
Thanks as always here a super producer, Christina executed producer
and a contributed jolly thank you and thanks to you
for listening. Stuff I Never told you is production iHeartRadio.
For more podcast from My Heart Radio, you can check
out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to favorite shows. No
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