July 12, 2024 • 30 mins
Yves is back with the story of Marie-Louise Christophe, the first Queen of independent Haiti.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff
I've never told you, a production of iHeartRadio. And today
we have another edition of Female First, which means we
are once again joined by the fabulous, fantastic Eves.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Hey, Hey, hey, y'all. So yeah, we've missed you.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
We didn't didn't get to connect last month, but we're
so happy to have you again. And we were talking
off Mike, but one of the reasons that we didn't
get a female first last month was you were doing
a lot of travel, which we had discussed on the
last Female First.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
How did that go? Did you get any inspiration?
Speaker 4 (00:52):
You know, the travel went really well, and I actually
did get inspiration because I went to a Caribbean island,
specifically the one of Jamaica last month, and I had
a good time there. It was really lovely to spend
time in the sunlight around so much water. I've been
really drawn to water lately, and today we will be
talking about a person from the Caribbean. So I did
(01:14):
get inspiration from that. Like we've talked about on previous episodes,
like I like to go places and think about like
the people who lived there in the past and learn
about them from people if I can, and I really
love to get to libraries and bookstores if I can,
but there it was kind of hard to find those
in where I was in Jamaica. We asked some of
the people who live there their recommendations. And I also
(01:38):
wasn't there that long, so I couldn't do really any
sort of like spend any much more deeper time on that.
I was with family, so I didn't get to do
as much as I wanted to. But hopefully on a
trip back, I can go and like find some more
things where I had some texts on some people.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Hopefully, Yes, were you able to plug from work last time?
We were talking about that and the.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Difficulty doing that, shaking my head solemnly, But I am
shaking my head solemnly because I did not.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I did. I was able to do it in a
very measured way. I will say.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
I also went to a retreat out of state last month,
and I went to Jamaica as well.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Both of those are supposed to.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Be like, you know, chill, relaxing, I get some time off,
like truly get to unplug.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
But on both of those trips I was like.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
All right, I'm done with the plenary session, like I'm
done with the lecture. Time to go work or before
I start my day, gotta get.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Up to work. You know, I got to make sure
I meet this deadline. And I did a little.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
I did a lot less of that in Jamaica than
I did on my retreat. So I did, Like the
hours weren't weren't so burning some of the amount of
work that I did then, So I have no plaints.
And I was like, I got to do it with
my legs up on a patio by fool, you know, yeah,
(03:08):
in the Caribbean some way, So you know, I'm not
who am I to complain about that? So not complete
loss is what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, right, yes, yes, Well I am so glad you're
bringing this story today, Eves. This is another one I
had not heard, and I can't believe I hadn't heard.
So who are we talking about today?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Today?
Speaker 4 (03:33):
We were talking about Marie Luis Christophe, also known as
Marie Luis Croy da Vide. So she was the first
and only queen of the independent Haiti. And that's what
we're talking about. So I said, we're talking about Caribbean,
We're talking about Haiti. Specifically today, And yeah, I'm really
excited to get into it.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yes, it is quite the history and I'm looking forward
to to hearing more about it because a lot of
times Samantha and I will do kind of a preliminary
research just so we know what we're talking about can
kind of keep up. But this one was difficult to
find some sources, especially like in early days.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yes, so I'm.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Very excited to hear. I'm sure it was difficult for you.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yes, it was, and that is the case for researchers
who are far more deep into her biography than I
am as well.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
So you are not alone. I am not alone.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
But as we always talk about here on Sminty on
female first specifically, I mean, just because we don't know
a lot about a person doesn't mean their story isn't
worth bringing to the forefront. That's the case for Marie
Luis Cloy Davide because she has a history in Haiti,
which obviously always it Haiti story deserves uplift men. And
(04:48):
when we talk about history, and we talk about the
history of black people and independence and women's roles in
movements for independence and resistance movements, and she also has
a history of traveling the world. But the difficulty in
her story is that she doesn't have There aren't many
of her own personal writings left, So not only do
(05:09):
we not know as much about her earlier life, it's
like we don't know a lot from her own perspective
about what her life was like, and those are often,
you know, it not necessarily the most engaging parts, but
when you get to learn the smaller details of somebody's
life and how they view the world, that's where we
really get to understand people, I think, on a bit
more empathetic level outside of just oh, this is their
(05:30):
first this is their accomplishment, And unfortunately we don't have
a lot of that from her. But still her story
deserves to be known and heard.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yes, absolutely, Well, with that said, shall we get into
the history.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
So she was born in cat Francie, which is now
cap Icien, which is a town on the northern coast
of Haiti, and her birthday is listed as May eighth,
seventeen seventy eight, and she was reportedly born free so
details are fuzzy, like we were just talking about, you'll
see in some sources that it said her father was
(06:09):
the owner of a hotel, but that is very dubious information.
She had siblings, but there are also questionable facts surrounding
who some of them were, how many of them there were.
But she had her first child when she was sixteen
years old, and she was married to Henri Christophe, and
(06:29):
that's where we get her last name Christoph. So the
Haitian Revolution is a big part of her story. It
started in seventeen ninety one, which was a little bit
over a decade after she was born, and the revolution
ended in eighteen o four, and Marie Luis she married
(06:50):
on Rie Christoph, her husband, around seventeen ninety three, so
that was a couple of years after the revolution popped off.
I'm not so sure about the details of her marriage,
like I would like to know a little bit more
about that, like really how they met, you know, what
their marriage was like, some of those details, because Rie
(07:11):
Christoph was a pretty big figure in Haiti and the
Haitian Revolution.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
But I couldn't find much of that.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
I really, I don't think a ton of that exists
in general, but I would love to know more about that,
because you know, her first is rooted and on Ri Christoph,
which we'll get to you in a second. But I
re we do know that he supported Toussaint Chure and
started fighting the French, the British and the Spanish and
(07:38):
the revolution, and he eventually became a general in the revolution.
And so just for a little bit about the Haitian Revolution,
I'm sure a lot of people, well, let me not
assume what everyone knows. But I think one of the
biggest facts that people will come across when they're talking
about the Haitian Revolution is that it was the only
(07:58):
time enslaved people, free people of color like fought for
their independence from colonization and succeeded, and that resulted in
a nation that was led by formerly enslaved people and
free people of color. Of course, there was a huge
upheaval after this one that continues to resonate till today.
(08:22):
Jean Jacques Dessaline, who was a formerly enslaved black man,
became the first Emperor of Haiti after independence, but he
was assassinated in eighteen o six, so there was instability
after the end of the revolution. Politically, Haiti was soon
split into two, and that was the State of Haiti
in the north, and that was the Republic of Haiti
(08:44):
in the south. So that's a little bit on the
Haitian Revolution, just understanding the context of Marie and how
she was coming up in Haiti because she was still
relatively young at this time, and the context in which
Marie Louise's and Henri Christophe's marriage was. I mean, I
(09:05):
mean he became a general in the revolution. You know,
he was putting a lot of its energy and efforts
in time toward the revolution during the time he was
married with Marie Louise. So all in all though they
ended up having four children, two sons and two daughters,
(09:26):
and her oldest son died under the guardianship of the
French government in eighteen oh five, and so there is
a little bit on Henrie Christoph as well. He ruled
the northern half of Haiti, the State of Haiti, and
in eighteen eleven the State of Haiti became a kingdom
and Henri proclaimed himself as king, and this is what
(09:48):
made Marie Louise the first queen of independent Haiti. So
this is where her first comes in. And I'm ree
he believed a single hereditary ruler would be the best
(10:10):
move for Haiti, so he set up this whole elaborate
hereditary nobility, and he instituted and enforced a system of
labor on plantations where workers didn't make wages and instead
they got a fourth of the gross product that was
free from duties. His government also captured ships with enslaved
(10:33):
people on them and liberated them, and Imri was in
regular contact with British abolitionists. He had artists, scientists, and
English teachers brought to Haiti to teach students. So even
though I'm not exactly sure what his marriage to Marie
Luis looked like in great detail, they definitely lived a
(10:58):
lavish lifestyle. I've seen that he apparently had mistresses. I
don't want to read too much in that. I mean,
I'm here for the drama and stories a lot of
the times, but it's really not that integral to the
story we're telling about Marie Louise today, okay, because they
are not her. But by eighteen twenty, Henri's health wasn't
(11:20):
great and people were uprising against his rule. And on
October eighth, eighteen twenty, Henri died by suicide. And I
don't want to focus too much on Anrie Christoph's story.
He does you can you know, people can go research
more about his story. There is far more detail about
(11:42):
his story. People can look up some of why they
were uprising against his rule.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
There are records of the.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Types of systems that he instituted, why people didn't like
what he was doing, why people did like his rule.
There's a lot more information on the political ins and
outs of his biography, So that is also fascinating, and
I think, in its own right, can show a little
(12:09):
bit give us a little bit more insight into Marie
Luis as well, and how her marriage might have been
to him, and also maybe some of the way she
thinks and some of her perspectives. So I think his
biography is worthwhile looking into in that regard on his own,
but also if you were more interested in Marie Luis.
But I just didn't want to belabor it too much
(12:30):
today because this is about Marie Louise. So right after
anried died by suicide, her youngest son was assassinated, and
after the death of her husband and her son, she
and her daughters went into exile. So now her two
sons are deceased and her two daughters are still alive,
(12:51):
so they all went into exile. And at first she
was sheltered in Porta Prince in Haiti, but she soon
got protected passage to be able to go to London
in exile, and she went to England in September of
eighteen twenty one. So another major contextual point here is
(13:15):
about the Industrial Revolution, So another revolution happening, a very
different kind. But I know that y'all have talked about
it this era on Sminty before, and it was very
polluted there in London. There was a lot of change
that was happening. But when they got there, they stayed
(13:37):
at Osborne's Hotel, and then abolitionist Thomas Clarkson invited them
to stay at his home, which was Playford Hall and Stuffolk,
and he expected them to stay about a month, but
they ended up staying for months, which is something he
commented on in a letter he wrote to someone.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
He was like, yeah, I didn't know, you.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Know, I wasn't planning on them staying long, but they did,
which is honestly relatable because you know, sometimes you invite
people over out of the kindness of your heart to stay.
You're like, I'm so hospitable, and then you get sick
and tired of them being.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
In your space, like going home now, like your.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Home is my home, you know, but also what this
is also my home? So yeah, but he does talk
about how they ended up growing on him. He wrote
in a letter to another abolitionist that there quote amiable
dispositions and gentle and correct manners occasion them daily to
(14:41):
grow in our love and esteem end quote. So I
feel like, you know, from my contemporary perspective, I acknowledge
that is coming from twenty twenty four, but I feel
like it was a compliment.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
And also.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
There is a twinge of respectability in this where he's like, well,
because you know, they are not hooting and hollering, and
they're not all over the place and they're very well contained.
Is kind of what it was saying to me in
a way that you know, we can handle it, you know,
which I think I might just be particularly sensitive to
(15:21):
it knowing that they were black, because the idea of
like a white person placing that level of like I
accept you because you're a respectable it just like rubs
me a certain way. But I also think that like
they moved to England and they were royalty from Haiti,
and they were black, and this this was she and
(15:42):
her family. They were not everyday people. So yeah, there's
a lot of that wrapped up in there. But anyway,
Clarkson also said about the Christophs quote, if they themselves
feel something of shyness respecting abolitionists, it arises from their
fear of being confounded with Africans. I can pity their weakness.
(16:02):
I have observed that very few persons can bear to
be reminded of any circumstances in their history which may
be thought degrading. So it is clear that they are
coming to this new place. People recognize where they came
from and their history. And there's also a distinction of
(16:24):
them from other Africans or black people, which is like
they're of a different class there, of nobility, and they're
from this far away place. But it was during this
time that Marie Luis and her family were at Clarkson's
home and in England that she kind of got her
(16:46):
ducks in a row. She sold some jewelry, she got
money that her husband left behind, and she had a
good amount of cash to live comfortably on. So I
don't think it's known exactly how much money she had,
but there was no record of her having struggled monetarily
economically throughout the rest of her life. So it seems
(17:09):
that with the money that she did have and the
resources that she did have and the connections that she had,
she was able to live pretty comfortably for her entire
life after her husband died. And it is also notable
that the anti slavery movement and abolitionism was very heavy,
like it was a big thing in Britain at the time,
(17:31):
but Marie Luis doesn't seem to have been too involved
in that movement, or at least there's no record of
her going to anti slavery meetings while she was there,
even though her history is so wrapped up in the
Haitian Revolution. And I think there's speculation around why that
was the case. You know, what it looked like for
(17:52):
her to be involved in her safety and her already
being a strange person in a strange land. I know,
there are so many considerations that a black person would
have had to have in thriving and surviving the way
in her situation and exile in Europe at the time,
So I could only imagine the permutations in her mind
(18:15):
around the issue. But there's only speculation about why that
was the case. But in April of eighteen twenty two,
the family left played for a hall and they went
to black Heath, which is an area in southeast London,
and they weren't there long. Soon they moved to West
Hill in Hastings. One of Marie Luis's daughters wrote that
the climate was milder in Hastings and that it was
(18:37):
helping Marie Luis's rheumatism.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
So I.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Them being in different places in England seemed to have
been something that might have been ordered from them for
a doctor because of different conditions that they had. But also,
you know, the Industrial Revolution was happening at a time,
so certain places when they were closer to the coast
or when they were in cities, could have different effects
(19:07):
on their health, and that seemed to be a consideration
when they were moving and their presence was highlighted in
various newspapers. You know, these Haitians that had come to England.
It is Haitian royalty. But she did end up leaving
England in September of eighteen twenty four, which is about
(19:27):
three years after she got there, and after that she
never came back, but she did stay in Europe. So
she went to Salzburg Austria, she went to Rome, and
she went to Pisa. One of her daughters atun Naier
died from respiratory illness in eighteen thirty one, and her
other daughter, I teased, died from an injury that she
(19:48):
got after falling in eighteen thirty nine. So she lost
a lot of her family members, her husband, and all
of her children before she died. So I can only
imagine the level of grief that she had for losing
everybody around her and in unexpected and tragic ways. I because,
(20:16):
like I said, there are no personal reflections from her
on this, I don't really know too much about how
she responded on an emotional level, what her day to
day was like after her family members passed away. So
I would like to know more about that too, because
(20:38):
there are all these groundbreaking moments in her story, with
her husband and her becoming the first claim. She's seeing
independent Haiti, seeing that change that's so huge, and then
she moves to England that's a big deal, and there
aren't many people like her around, and there's this new language.
You know, all of these these major changes, and at
the same time she's having these personal tragedies have in
(21:00):
her life I would really love to know her thoughts
on that and how she handled it, but alas we
don't have those things. But she did write a letter
to the President of Haiti, Jean Pierre Boyer, asking if
she could return to her country. So I think I
can pull from that that there was a bit of
(21:23):
homesickness that she had. I mean, she wanted to go
back home. She did say that she really liked England
and she would have stayed there. I think if it
were not for I believe she said, if it weren't
for the climate conditions and like the pollution conditions, that
the effects that it had on health. But she wanted
(21:45):
to go back to her her home country, Haiti, although
she never ended up doing so. Her sister Luisa coy
Da Ville Pierrot. She was the wife of General and
later President Jean Louis Pirout of the Republic of Haiti,
who also if people would like to he has his
(22:06):
own history as well. That's interesting that people could research.
But Louisa was going to go back to Haiti with
Marie Louise, but that never happened. So Marie Luise died
in March of eighteen fifty one in Pisa, that's where
she's buried. And in twenty nineteen, doctor Nicole Wilson recovered
(22:29):
a transcription of Marie Lewis's will at the UK National Archives.
So doctor Nicole Wilson has done quite a bit of
research on Marie Louis's history. Doctor Nicole Wilson was a
research fellow at the Institute for Black Atlantic Research at
the University of Lancashire. She was also principal investigator at
(22:53):
fam Rebel, which is a research project about women in
the Haitian Revolution and their narratives of resistance. And Marie
Luis's will is a five page document. If you go
to doctor Wilson's website, if you search fam Rebel, then
you can find the will and read it. And in
twenty twenty two, doctor Wilson was also involved in having
(23:14):
a plaque put up that honored Marie Luise. It was
put up at her former home at forty nine Weymouth
Street in London, which is the last place that she
lived in England, and that same year. Later on there
was another plaque that was put up honoring her in Hastings,
another place she lived while she was in England, and
in an article that doctor Wilson wrote for History Today.
(23:36):
She says about Marie Luise that quote, her story is
one of relative privilege, rendering her revolutionary trajectory more complicated
and to some less radical. And I just wanted to
talk about that quote because yes, like, there are were
(23:57):
a lot of people with far from resources and privileges
them Marie Luis had in Haiti that were not able
to move overseas, who were working on the plantations, who
died in difficult ways, who had a lot more trouble
(24:17):
taking care of their families, who lived in a lot
less comfortable positions. So I think there is context around
that too that is worthy of talking about. But Marie
Lewis's story is still so wrapped up in the Haitian
revolution and Haiti's independence, So a lot of things to
(24:39):
think about, I think with Marie Luis's story, Yeah, and
that's her life.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I love these female first that you always do such
a good job of presenting like the complexities of a person,
even if we don't have all the information.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
But it is a story of tragedy.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
And upheaval and revolution and having these privileges and all
of that in one person. And it's really fascinating, and
I do wish there's so many rabbit holes that I
do wish we knew more. There's so much I want
to research about after this. But it's also an example
(25:30):
I found in this a great example of people still
doing that work and still researching because a lot of
the stuff around her, like the plaques that was pretty recent,
that was like a lot of them were saying this
is like a pandemic project for that ad or something
like that. So I find that that always inspires me,
(25:51):
and I'm glad people are doing that work so we
can hear these stories and remember these stories, as complicated
as they may be.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Yeah, And I think one thing that it was difficult
for me in reading her story and not having a
lot of her personal thoughts about it, having so many
other people's words in it that was difficult for me
is that when you look at it from the outside,
and because we don't have a lot of her responses,
(26:23):
it kind of looks like a pat existence, like in
a way like, yes, we understand the deaths, but I
think it's a little bit it's kind of hard to
connect to those deaths and really understand the weight of them.
It's like Okay, people died around her, but like it
was a Haitian revolution, it was eighteen hundreds, like we
like we know people die without some of those specific
(26:45):
details on how she felt about it, and only seeing
like she was a royal, they built a palace, Okay,
she lived in Like she went to England, she got
safe passage there. She didn't die of tubercula, Like I mean,
what's she doing?
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Okay, you know, so it kind of looks like that.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
It can kind of look like that without me knowing
the specific details. I'm like, I really want to know
more because that it's so easy. I think when we
look at stories from the past that we don't know
a lot about to fall into that, And I just
that's why I want to know so much more about
how she felt, because I don't want to just have
(27:26):
to read between the lines to know how she felt,
because like her story is a black story, which no
matter what, no matter where at this time.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Would have been a difficult one.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
But we don't even know when she was in England,
what kind of stare she got, what kind of what
did people say to her? What did people do to
her when she was in England. Despite the fact that
she was royalty in this far off land than a
lot of people there in England had never been to,
had never seen someone of her of her stature and
her color, all of those kinds of things that I
(28:01):
really would like to know about some more about those
gaps in her story. So yeah, shout out to all
of the researchers like doctor Wilson and all the other
people who are looking more to her story, because her
story is her own. But it's also like we mentioned
some of these men that we talked about in today's
episode who were involved in the Haitian Revolution, but also
(28:23):
a lot of the other women in the Haitian Revolution
and women in anti colonial resistance around the world, in
British holdings and like just in general, like that we
can connect her story to and I think that is
a powerful part of her story as well, despite the
(28:44):
fact that we don't know a lot about it.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yes, and we always appreciate you Eves for doing this
research and giving us this context and bringing these important
stories to us. So thank you. We're glad to have
you back. Hope you to be here as always.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yes, where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Y'all can find me at you can just go to
Evesjeffcoat dot com and you can get to all of
the places. But if you want to go straight to Instagram,
you can go to not Apologizing. That is pretty much
the only social media platform that I really engage with
in any way. You can also find me on many
other episodes of Female First right here on Sminty talking
(29:27):
about women in history. And you can find me on
One Theme, which is a podcast about black storytelling and
all of its forms.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yes, and go check it out listeners, if you haven't already,
Thanks again Eves for being here listeners. If you would
like to contact us, you can our email Stuff Media
Mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us
on Twitter at mostaf podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok
at stuff I've Never told you.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
We're on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
We have a tea public store, and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, executive producer Maya,
and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
for listening. Steffan never told you the protection of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
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listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff
I've never told you, a production of iHeartRadio. And today
we have another edition of Female First, which means we
are once again joined by the fabulous, fantastic Eves.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Hey, Hey, hey, y'all. So yeah, we've missed you.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
We didn't didn't get to connect last month, but we're
so happy to have you again. And we were talking
off Mike, but one of the reasons that we didn't
get a female first last month was you were doing
a lot of travel, which we had discussed on the
last Female First.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
How did that go? Did you get any inspiration?
Speaker 4 (00:52):
You know, the travel went really well, and I actually
did get inspiration because I went to a Caribbean island,
specifically the one of Jamaica last month, and I had
a good time there. It was really lovely to spend
time in the sunlight around so much water. I've been
really drawn to water lately, and today we will be
talking about a person from the Caribbean. So I did
(01:14):
get inspiration from that. Like we've talked about on previous episodes,
like I like to go places and think about like
the people who lived there in the past and learn
about them from people if I can, and I really
love to get to libraries and bookstores if I can,
but there it was kind of hard to find those
in where I was in Jamaica. We asked some of
the people who live there their recommendations. And I also
(01:38):
wasn't there that long, so I couldn't do really any
sort of like spend any much more deeper time on that.
I was with family, so I didn't get to do
as much as I wanted to. But hopefully on a
trip back, I can go and like find some more
things where I had some texts on some people.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Hopefully, Yes, were you able to plug from work last time?
We were talking about that and the.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Difficulty doing that, shaking my head solemnly, But I am
shaking my head solemnly because I did not.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I did. I was able to do it in a
very measured way. I will say.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
I also went to a retreat out of state last month,
and I went to Jamaica as well.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Both of those are supposed to.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Be like, you know, chill, relaxing, I get some time off,
like truly get to unplug.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
But on both of those trips I was like.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
All right, I'm done with the plenary session, like I'm
done with the lecture. Time to go work or before
I start my day, gotta get.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Up to work. You know, I got to make sure
I meet this deadline. And I did a little.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
I did a lot less of that in Jamaica than
I did on my retreat. So I did, Like the
hours weren't weren't so burning some of the amount of
work that I did then, So I have no plaints.
And I was like, I got to do it with
my legs up on a patio by fool, you know, yeah,
(03:08):
in the Caribbean some way, So you know, I'm not
who am I to complain about that? So not complete
loss is what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, right, yes, yes, Well I am so glad you're
bringing this story today, Eves. This is another one I
had not heard, and I can't believe I hadn't heard.
So who are we talking about today?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Today?
Speaker 4 (03:33):
We were talking about Marie Luis Christophe, also known as
Marie Luis Croy da Vide. So she was the first
and only queen of the independent Haiti. And that's what
we're talking about. So I said, we're talking about Caribbean,
We're talking about Haiti. Specifically today, And yeah, I'm really
excited to get into it.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yes, it is quite the history and I'm looking forward
to to hearing more about it because a lot of
times Samantha and I will do kind of a preliminary
research just so we know what we're talking about can
kind of keep up. But this one was difficult to
find some sources, especially like in early days.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yes, so I'm.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Very excited to hear. I'm sure it was difficult for you.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yes, it was, and that is the case for researchers
who are far more deep into her biography than I
am as well.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
So you are not alone. I am not alone.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
But as we always talk about here on Sminty on
female first specifically, I mean, just because we don't know
a lot about a person doesn't mean their story isn't
worth bringing to the forefront. That's the case for Marie
Luis Cloy Davide because she has a history in Haiti,
which obviously always it Haiti story deserves uplift men. And
(04:48):
when we talk about history, and we talk about the
history of black people and independence and women's roles in
movements for independence and resistance movements, and she also has
a history of traveling the world. But the difficulty in
her story is that she doesn't have There aren't many
of her own personal writings left, So not only do
(05:09):
we not know as much about her earlier life, it's
like we don't know a lot from her own perspective
about what her life was like, and those are often,
you know, it not necessarily the most engaging parts, but
when you get to learn the smaller details of somebody's
life and how they view the world, that's where we
really get to understand people, I think, on a bit
more empathetic level outside of just oh, this is their
(05:30):
first this is their accomplishment, And unfortunately we don't have
a lot of that from her. But still her story
deserves to be known and heard.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yes, absolutely, Well, with that said, shall we get into
the history.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
So she was born in cat Francie, which is now
cap Icien, which is a town on the northern coast
of Haiti, and her birthday is listed as May eighth,
seventeen seventy eight, and she was reportedly born free so
details are fuzzy, like we were just talking about, you'll
see in some sources that it said her father was
(06:09):
the owner of a hotel, but that is very dubious information.
She had siblings, but there are also questionable facts surrounding
who some of them were, how many of them there were.
But she had her first child when she was sixteen
years old, and she was married to Henri Christophe, and
(06:29):
that's where we get her last name Christoph. So the
Haitian Revolution is a big part of her story. It
started in seventeen ninety one, which was a little bit
over a decade after she was born, and the revolution
ended in eighteen o four, and Marie Luis she married
(06:50):
on Rie Christoph, her husband, around seventeen ninety three, so
that was a couple of years after the revolution popped off.
I'm not so sure about the details of her marriage,
like I would like to know a little bit more
about that, like really how they met, you know, what
their marriage was like, some of those details, because Rie
(07:11):
Christoph was a pretty big figure in Haiti and the
Haitian Revolution.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
But I couldn't find much of that.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
I really, I don't think a ton of that exists
in general, but I would love to know more about that,
because you know, her first is rooted and on Ri Christoph,
which we'll get to you in a second. But I
re we do know that he supported Toussaint Chure and
started fighting the French, the British and the Spanish and
(07:38):
the revolution, and he eventually became a general in the revolution.
And so just for a little bit about the Haitian Revolution,
I'm sure a lot of people, well, let me not
assume what everyone knows. But I think one of the
biggest facts that people will come across when they're talking
about the Haitian Revolution is that it was the only
(07:58):
time enslaved people, free people of color like fought for
their independence from colonization and succeeded, and that resulted in
a nation that was led by formerly enslaved people and
free people of color. Of course, there was a huge
upheaval after this one that continues to resonate till today.
(08:22):
Jean Jacques Dessaline, who was a formerly enslaved black man,
became the first Emperor of Haiti after independence, but he
was assassinated in eighteen o six, so there was instability
after the end of the revolution. Politically, Haiti was soon
split into two, and that was the State of Haiti
in the north, and that was the Republic of Haiti
(08:44):
in the south. So that's a little bit on the
Haitian Revolution, just understanding the context of Marie and how
she was coming up in Haiti because she was still
relatively young at this time, and the context in which
Marie Louise's and Henri Christophe's marriage was. I mean, I
(09:05):
mean he became a general in the revolution. You know,
he was putting a lot of its energy and efforts
in time toward the revolution during the time he was
married with Marie Louise. So all in all though they
ended up having four children, two sons and two daughters,
(09:26):
and her oldest son died under the guardianship of the
French government in eighteen oh five, and so there is
a little bit on Henrie Christoph as well. He ruled
the northern half of Haiti, the State of Haiti, and
in eighteen eleven the State of Haiti became a kingdom
and Henri proclaimed himself as king, and this is what
(09:48):
made Marie Louise the first queen of independent Haiti. So
this is where her first comes in. And I'm ree
he believed a single hereditary ruler would be the best
(10:10):
move for Haiti, so he set up this whole elaborate
hereditary nobility, and he instituted and enforced a system of
labor on plantations where workers didn't make wages and instead
they got a fourth of the gross product that was
free from duties. His government also captured ships with enslaved
(10:33):
people on them and liberated them, and Imri was in
regular contact with British abolitionists. He had artists, scientists, and
English teachers brought to Haiti to teach students. So even
though I'm not exactly sure what his marriage to Marie
Luis looked like in great detail, they definitely lived a
(10:58):
lavish lifestyle. I've seen that he apparently had mistresses. I
don't want to read too much in that. I mean,
I'm here for the drama and stories a lot of
the times, but it's really not that integral to the
story we're telling about Marie Louise today, okay, because they
are not her. But by eighteen twenty, Henri's health wasn't
(11:20):
great and people were uprising against his rule. And on
October eighth, eighteen twenty, Henri died by suicide. And I
don't want to focus too much on Anrie Christoph's story.
He does you can you know, people can go research
more about his story. There is far more detail about
(11:42):
his story. People can look up some of why they
were uprising against his rule.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
There are records of the.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Types of systems that he instituted, why people didn't like
what he was doing, why people did like his rule.
There's a lot more information on the political ins and
outs of his biography, So that is also fascinating, and
I think, in its own right, can show a little
(12:09):
bit give us a little bit more insight into Marie
Luis as well, and how her marriage might have been
to him, and also maybe some of the way she
thinks and some of her perspectives. So I think his
biography is worthwhile looking into in that regard on his own,
but also if you were more interested in Marie Luis.
But I just didn't want to belabor it too much
(12:30):
today because this is about Marie Louise. So right after
anried died by suicide, her youngest son was assassinated, and
after the death of her husband and her son, she
and her daughters went into exile. So now her two
sons are deceased and her two daughters are still alive,
(12:51):
so they all went into exile. And at first she
was sheltered in Porta Prince in Haiti, but she soon
got protected passage to be able to go to London
in exile, and she went to England in September of
eighteen twenty one. So another major contextual point here is
(13:15):
about the Industrial Revolution, So another revolution happening, a very
different kind. But I know that y'all have talked about
it this era on Sminty before, and it was very
polluted there in London. There was a lot of change
that was happening. But when they got there, they stayed
(13:37):
at Osborne's Hotel, and then abolitionist Thomas Clarkson invited them
to stay at his home, which was Playford Hall and Stuffolk,
and he expected them to stay about a month, but
they ended up staying for months, which is something he
commented on in a letter he wrote to someone.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
He was like, yeah, I didn't know, you.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Know, I wasn't planning on them staying long, but they did,
which is honestly relatable because you know, sometimes you invite
people over out of the kindness of your heart to stay.
You're like, I'm so hospitable, and then you get sick
and tired of them being.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
In your space, like going home now, like your.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Home is my home, you know, but also what this
is also my home? So yeah, but he does talk
about how they ended up growing on him. He wrote
in a letter to another abolitionist that there quote amiable
dispositions and gentle and correct manners occasion them daily to
(14:41):
grow in our love and esteem end quote. So I
feel like, you know, from my contemporary perspective, I acknowledge
that is coming from twenty twenty four, but I feel
like it was a compliment.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
And also.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
There is a twinge of respectability in this where he's like, well,
because you know, they are not hooting and hollering, and
they're not all over the place and they're very well contained.
Is kind of what it was saying to me in
a way that you know, we can handle it, you know,
which I think I might just be particularly sensitive to
(15:21):
it knowing that they were black, because the idea of
like a white person placing that level of like I
accept you because you're a respectable it just like rubs
me a certain way. But I also think that like
they moved to England and they were royalty from Haiti,
and they were black, and this this was she and
(15:42):
her family. They were not everyday people. So yeah, there's
a lot of that wrapped up in there. But anyway,
Clarkson also said about the Christophs quote, if they themselves
feel something of shyness respecting abolitionists, it arises from their
fear of being confounded with Africans. I can pity their weakness.
(16:02):
I have observed that very few persons can bear to
be reminded of any circumstances in their history which may
be thought degrading. So it is clear that they are
coming to this new place. People recognize where they came
from and their history. And there's also a distinction of
(16:24):
them from other Africans or black people, which is like
they're of a different class there, of nobility, and they're
from this far away place. But it was during this
time that Marie Luis and her family were at Clarkson's
home and in England that she kind of got her
(16:46):
ducks in a row. She sold some jewelry, she got
money that her husband left behind, and she had a
good amount of cash to live comfortably on. So I
don't think it's known exactly how much money she had,
but there was no record of her having struggled monetarily
economically throughout the rest of her life. So it seems
(17:09):
that with the money that she did have and the
resources that she did have and the connections that she had,
she was able to live pretty comfortably for her entire
life after her husband died. And it is also notable
that the anti slavery movement and abolitionism was very heavy,
like it was a big thing in Britain at the time,
(17:31):
but Marie Luis doesn't seem to have been too involved
in that movement, or at least there's no record of
her going to anti slavery meetings while she was there,
even though her history is so wrapped up in the
Haitian Revolution. And I think there's speculation around why that
was the case. You know, what it looked like for
(17:52):
her to be involved in her safety and her already
being a strange person in a strange land. I know,
there are so many considerations that a black person would
have had to have in thriving and surviving the way
in her situation and exile in Europe at the time,
So I could only imagine the permutations in her mind
(18:15):
around the issue. But there's only speculation about why that
was the case. But in April of eighteen twenty two,
the family left played for a hall and they went
to black Heath, which is an area in southeast London,
and they weren't there long. Soon they moved to West
Hill in Hastings. One of Marie Luis's daughters wrote that
the climate was milder in Hastings and that it was
(18:37):
helping Marie Luis's rheumatism.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
So I.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Them being in different places in England seemed to have
been something that might have been ordered from them for
a doctor because of different conditions that they had. But also,
you know, the Industrial Revolution was happening at a time,
so certain places when they were closer to the coast
or when they were in cities, could have different effects
(19:07):
on their health, and that seemed to be a consideration
when they were moving and their presence was highlighted in
various newspapers. You know, these Haitians that had come to England.
It is Haitian royalty. But she did end up leaving
England in September of eighteen twenty four, which is about
(19:27):
three years after she got there, and after that she
never came back, but she did stay in Europe. So
she went to Salzburg Austria, she went to Rome, and
she went to Pisa. One of her daughters atun Naier
died from respiratory illness in eighteen thirty one, and her
other daughter, I teased, died from an injury that she
(19:48):
got after falling in eighteen thirty nine. So she lost
a lot of her family members, her husband, and all
of her children before she died. So I can only
imagine the level of grief that she had for losing
everybody around her and in unexpected and tragic ways. I because,
(20:16):
like I said, there are no personal reflections from her
on this, I don't really know too much about how
she responded on an emotional level, what her day to
day was like after her family members passed away. So
I would like to know more about that too, because
(20:38):
there are all these groundbreaking moments in her story, with
her husband and her becoming the first claim. She's seeing
independent Haiti, seeing that change that's so huge, and then
she moves to England that's a big deal, and there
aren't many people like her around, and there's this new language.
You know, all of these these major changes, and at
the same time she's having these personal tragedies have in
(21:00):
her life I would really love to know her thoughts
on that and how she handled it, but alas we
don't have those things. But she did write a letter
to the President of Haiti, Jean Pierre Boyer, asking if
she could return to her country. So I think I
can pull from that that there was a bit of
(21:23):
homesickness that she had. I mean, she wanted to go
back home. She did say that she really liked England
and she would have stayed there. I think if it
were not for I believe she said, if it weren't
for the climate conditions and like the pollution conditions, that
the effects that it had on health. But she wanted
(21:45):
to go back to her her home country, Haiti, although
she never ended up doing so. Her sister Luisa coy
Da Ville Pierrot. She was the wife of General and
later President Jean Louis Pirout of the Republic of Haiti,
who also if people would like to he has his
(22:06):
own history as well. That's interesting that people could research.
But Louisa was going to go back to Haiti with
Marie Louise, but that never happened. So Marie Luise died
in March of eighteen fifty one in Pisa, that's where
she's buried. And in twenty nineteen, doctor Nicole Wilson recovered
(22:29):
a transcription of Marie Lewis's will at the UK National Archives.
So doctor Nicole Wilson has done quite a bit of
research on Marie Louis's history. Doctor Nicole Wilson was a
research fellow at the Institute for Black Atlantic Research at
the University of Lancashire. She was also principal investigator at
(22:53):
fam Rebel, which is a research project about women in
the Haitian Revolution and their narratives of resistance. And Marie
Luis's will is a five page document. If you go
to doctor Wilson's website, if you search fam Rebel, then
you can find the will and read it. And in
twenty twenty two, doctor Wilson was also involved in having
(23:14):
a plaque put up that honored Marie Luise. It was
put up at her former home at forty nine Weymouth
Street in London, which is the last place that she
lived in England, and that same year. Later on there
was another plaque that was put up honoring her in Hastings,
another place she lived while she was in England, and
in an article that doctor Wilson wrote for History Today.
(23:36):
She says about Marie Luise that quote, her story is
one of relative privilege, rendering her revolutionary trajectory more complicated
and to some less radical. And I just wanted to
talk about that quote because yes, like, there are were
(23:57):
a lot of people with far from resources and privileges
them Marie Luis had in Haiti that were not able
to move overseas, who were working on the plantations, who
died in difficult ways, who had a lot more trouble
(24:17):
taking care of their families, who lived in a lot
less comfortable positions. So I think there is context around
that too that is worthy of talking about. But Marie
Lewis's story is still so wrapped up in the Haitian
revolution and Haiti's independence, So a lot of things to
(24:39):
think about, I think with Marie Luis's story, Yeah, and
that's her life.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I love these female first that you always do such
a good job of presenting like the complexities of a person,
even if we don't have all the information.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
But it is a story of tragedy.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
And upheaval and revolution and having these privileges and all
of that in one person. And it's really fascinating, and
I do wish there's so many rabbit holes that I
do wish we knew more. There's so much I want
to research about after this. But it's also an example
(25:30):
I found in this a great example of people still
doing that work and still researching because a lot of
the stuff around her, like the plaques that was pretty recent,
that was like a lot of them were saying this
is like a pandemic project for that ad or something
like that. So I find that that always inspires me,
(25:51):
and I'm glad people are doing that work so we
can hear these stories and remember these stories, as complicated
as they may be.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Yeah, And I think one thing that it was difficult
for me in reading her story and not having a
lot of her personal thoughts about it, having so many
other people's words in it that was difficult for me
is that when you look at it from the outside,
and because we don't have a lot of her responses,
(26:23):
it kind of looks like a pat existence, like in
a way like, yes, we understand the deaths, but I
think it's a little bit it's kind of hard to
connect to those deaths and really understand the weight of them.
It's like Okay, people died around her, but like it
was a Haitian revolution, it was eighteen hundreds, like we
like we know people die without some of those specific
(26:45):
details on how she felt about it, and only seeing
like she was a royal, they built a palace, Okay,
she lived in Like she went to England, she got
safe passage there. She didn't die of tubercula, Like I mean,
what's she doing?
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Okay, you know, so it kind of looks like that.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
It can kind of look like that without me knowing
the specific details. I'm like, I really want to know
more because that it's so easy. I think when we
look at stories from the past that we don't know
a lot about to fall into that, And I just
that's why I want to know so much more about
how she felt, because I don't want to just have
(27:26):
to read between the lines to know how she felt,
because like her story is a black story, which no
matter what, no matter where at this time.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Would have been a difficult one.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
But we don't even know when she was in England,
what kind of stare she got, what kind of what
did people say to her? What did people do to
her when she was in England. Despite the fact that
she was royalty in this far off land than a
lot of people there in England had never been to,
had never seen someone of her of her stature and
her color, all of those kinds of things that I
(28:01):
really would like to know about some more about those
gaps in her story. So yeah, shout out to all
of the researchers like doctor Wilson and all the other
people who are looking more to her story, because her
story is her own. But it's also like we mentioned
some of these men that we talked about in today's
episode who were involved in the Haitian Revolution, but also
(28:23):
a lot of the other women in the Haitian Revolution
and women in anti colonial resistance around the world, in
British holdings and like just in general, like that we
can connect her story to and I think that is
a powerful part of her story as well, despite the
(28:44):
fact that we don't know a lot about it.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yes, and we always appreciate you Eves for doing this
research and giving us this context and bringing these important
stories to us. So thank you. We're glad to have
you back. Hope you to be here as always.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yes, where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Y'all can find me at you can just go to
Evesjeffcoat dot com and you can get to all of
the places. But if you want to go straight to Instagram,
you can go to not Apologizing. That is pretty much
the only social media platform that I really engage with
in any way. You can also find me on many
other episodes of Female First right here on Sminty talking
(29:27):
about women in history. And you can find me on
One Theme, which is a podcast about black storytelling and
all of its forms.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yes, and go check it out listeners, if you haven't already,
Thanks again Eves for being here listeners. If you would
like to contact us, you can our email Stuff Media
Mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us
on Twitter at mostaf podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok
at stuff I've Never told you.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
We're on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
We have a tea public store, and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, executive producer Maya,
and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
for listening. Steffan never told you the protection of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the heart radio, app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
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