March 25, 2025 • 10 mins
Today, we're highlighting Catt Smalls, a Black woman game developer behind titles like Sweetxheart.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I welcome to stuff
I never told you productould by Heart Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And welcome to another edition of Activists around the World
where I am sick. Let's happens at least once a
year where I get to do my sexy voice and
I sound like an eighty year old smokers.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Nine year old.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Whose isn't Annie? Is yours not? That's the way it goes, right,
I know, I'll go an octave lower. This is the
only time I'm probably a base if I were to sing.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I think singing would not be ideal for you right now.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
So we just recently talked about our gaming updates, which
I'm still playing things, and so as we had mentioned then,
and we had play to do a follow up with
people from the gaming industry, specifically black women in the
gaming industry. According to the gamer dot com, the percentage
of women in non binary folks that are in development
have increased from twenty four percent in twenty twenty two
(01:14):
to thirty two percent in twenty twenty four, but of
course when it comes to those in the black community,
it is significantly less. So much so as we talked
about the numbers, it's like abysmal. In twenty twenty one,
only five percent of people surveyed by the International Game
Developers Association were from the black community. And this was
(01:36):
from a twenty twenty two NPR article written highlighting black
game developers, which we did use for some of the
information about our activists. Mistake. Again, I really it was
a really limited amount of information specifically, and to the
point that one article talked about the fact that black
women have not been in the industry long enough to
(01:57):
even count, like they could not get numbers, like it'd
been so small. So from gamedeveloper dot com, a twenty
twenty four article written by Justin Carter talked about where
the game industry is in relation to black develops burst
And the article is titled our game studios suddenly abandoning
Black developers. And here's the quote of those that have
(02:18):
been in the industry for twenty one plus years ninety
two percent, where white men group wise, Asian men came
in second at fifteen percent, followed by Hispanic Latino men
in eight percent, Black men six percent, and Asian and
white women five percent each. And yeah, this is where
they're comeing from. The survey indicated that almost no black
or Hispanic Latino women have been in the industry that long,
(02:39):
so they could not get numbers because they have not
been in the industry long enough, which is absurd. So
with all of that, we do want to take the
time to feature the black women who are making an
impact in that industry and who are a part of
that industry, and that includes Cats Smalls. We talked a
bit about her game Sweetheart, which is spelled sweet ex Heart.
(03:02):
It I guess came out in twenty nineteen because she've
been developing it for a minute, and she has so
many others. So if you go to our website, she
has a list of all the games that she has
worked on or all the projects that she's a part of,
and from that site it says quote people are the
center of everything I do. Over the past fifteen years,
I've championed digital design at increasing skills, mentored and managed
(03:24):
junior and senior designers, and collaborated to craft inclusive use
of experiences with agility and thoughtful consideration. I work with
designers and product development teams to gather insights, prioritize customer
pains and opportunities, create and inspiring strategic vision and bring
ideas to life. In my spare time, I make games right,
speak publicly, and work to make the world a better
(03:45):
place by organizing events across the tech and game industries.
So she does a lot, and with her years of work,
she has used her experience to help others in this industry.
With Chris Algu, she co founded the Game Devs of
Color Expo in twenty six and here's a bit of
information from her feature with the NPR article I mentioned
earlier quote. The Game Deves of Color Expo is a
(04:08):
space for developers of color to meet one another and
showcase their work. Several events have been held over the years,
some in partnership with major gaming companies like Xbox, Nintendo,
and Oculus. Besides bringing developers of color together small sets,
the Expo helps to break down the barriers that people
of color may face when trying to get into the industry.
She says, we are actively giving people money to make
(04:30):
their games, and since twenty nineteen, the Game Devs of
Color Expo has given more than three hundred and sixty
thousand dollars to game developers of color.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
And in that same interview, she talked about her journey coding. Quote.
When I was ten, I actually started to learn how
to program so I could make my own dress up dolls,
and eventually I learned that you could make games as well.
I had a tutorial for the dress up doll program
that I was able to read. It was updated in
like nineteen ninety nine, and I think I looked at
(04:59):
it it in like the year two thousand. Small's met
with others interested in programming and video games through online forums.
She said, we did collaborate, which was really fun. So
I got to learn how to make art for these
dress up doll games that we were creating, and we
would kind of trade art back and forth and figure
out how to build everybody's work into one cohesive experience,
(05:20):
which was really fun.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
And in another interview she did with Johannes Epen, sorry
for if Iams pronounced that, she talked about the importance
of diversity in the industry. She says, quote, there are
a lot of people who play video games, but it
is interesting how much less diverse the people made games are.
A lot of the things I and my friends are
doing is to make sure that there is equal access
(05:42):
to the tools and the knowledge that is out there.
Making video games is one of the easiest ways to
learn programming. Part of the reason is that in some
schools there are game development classes, and in many other
disadvantaged places there aren't a variety of classes for computer
science or video games. We are trying to show people
that there are a lot of games developers who are,
for example black. The knowledge alone that there are other
(06:03):
people like you out there is super great.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
And she continues talking about the difference it makes when
a developer has a diverse background quote, it's been really
cool to see the stuff that people come up with.
The traditional thing that people think of when thinking about
video gaming is maybe Fortnite. The more diverse freewpoints you
have more potential strange and awesome things people come up with.
Take that game called neuror spelled in Oh you Are
(06:29):
by the way, continues, They took a bunch of foods
and colors like popcorn, bubble tea, pancakes, and sausages. You
can do weird and satisfying things to them, drop bubble
popcorn and so on. It appeases the natural urge of
playing with your food and that space that has no limits.
I don't think that would have happened if that person
(06:50):
wouldn't have learned how to make video games. Getting as
many people as possible to learn how to make video
games will result in a lot of really fun, random
and interesting come nations of mechanics and ideas.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
And in that same interview, she talks about the games
Sweetheart and her thoughts behind it. Quote Sweetheart is a
game that started as an independent study project during grad school.
I kept working on it. It is this autobiographic game
using several experiences I had in college. I grew up
as a black woman in the Bronx. Going to undergrad
school in Manhattan. Going every morning from a place where
you're surrounded by so many different people from so many
(07:25):
different places to a place that was mostly white was
really disorienting to me. Also, navigating the tech industry at
the same time. Making this game has been very therapeutic, and.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
She continues explaining the name. The name is based on
cat calling. Many people called me Sweetheart on the street,
which is a very creepy and uncomfortable term for me
as an adult person. It also describes the player's experience
very nicely. The X is silent. In many Japanese video games,
they have an X in the middle of the name
to make it sound cooler. I thought that would work
(07:57):
very well. A moment where the character is pushing back
against the thing that people call her, a fun take
on the word itself. It stuck really quickly with me.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I'm excited to try this and the game took her
several years to develop and create, but she committed to it, saying, quote,
I hope that by playing it people get to see
what it was to be me at the time, being
nineteen years old, trying to figure out a lot about
my life, understanding how people saw me and not just
how I saw myself. I had a lot of fun
testing it out with people, also using a lot of
my ux design jobs going through the process. I love
(08:29):
when people talk about things I don't know like us.
I know of it, I don't know it. Oh my
godh uh huh. Good job. So it's obvious. She's been
very busy in her work and continues to create great games.
In the NPR feature, they asked her for her advice
for others who want to get into the gaming industry,
and she said, quote, find your people, because your community
(08:51):
is going to be the thing that gives you energy
to keep going and your community is going to be
what inspires you and helps you keep pushing to learn
and grow.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yes, great advice, and I obviously we want to check
out these games. We love getting recommendations from you listeners
if there's anything we missed, And that's one of the
things we love about indie games is this very thing
is seeing all these new takes so very cool. All right, listeners,
(09:19):
if you would like to contact us, you can. You
can email us at Hello at stuff Whenever Told You
dot com. You can find us on Blue Sky at
mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
When Never Told You for USO on YouTube. We have
a tea public store and we have a book you
can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always
to our super producer Christine or executive producer My and
your contributor Joey.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Thank you and I'm sorry and thanks.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
To you for listening Stuff Will Never Told You the
protection of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my
heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,
Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I welcome to stuff
I never told you productould by Heart Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And welcome to another edition of Activists around the World
where I am sick. Let's happens at least once a
year where I get to do my sexy voice and
I sound like an eighty year old smokers.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Nine year old.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Whose isn't Annie? Is yours not? That's the way it goes, right,
I know, I'll go an octave lower. This is the
only time I'm probably a base if I were to sing.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I think singing would not be ideal for you right now.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
So we just recently talked about our gaming updates, which
I'm still playing things, and so as we had mentioned then,
and we had play to do a follow up with
people from the gaming industry, specifically black women in the
gaming industry. According to the gamer dot com, the percentage
of women in non binary folks that are in development
have increased from twenty four percent in twenty twenty two
(01:14):
to thirty two percent in twenty twenty four, but of
course when it comes to those in the black community,
it is significantly less. So much so as we talked
about the numbers, it's like abysmal. In twenty twenty one,
only five percent of people surveyed by the International Game
Developers Association were from the black community. And this was
(01:36):
from a twenty twenty two NPR article written highlighting black
game developers, which we did use for some of the
information about our activists. Mistake. Again, I really it was
a really limited amount of information specifically, and to the
point that one article talked about the fact that black
women have not been in the industry long enough to
(01:57):
even count, like they could not get numbers, like it'd
been so small. So from gamedeveloper dot com, a twenty
twenty four article written by Justin Carter talked about where
the game industry is in relation to black develops burst
And the article is titled our game studios suddenly abandoning
Black developers. And here's the quote of those that have
(02:18):
been in the industry for twenty one plus years ninety
two percent, where white men group wise, Asian men came
in second at fifteen percent, followed by Hispanic Latino men
in eight percent, Black men six percent, and Asian and
white women five percent each. And yeah, this is where
they're comeing from. The survey indicated that almost no black
or Hispanic Latino women have been in the industry that long,
(02:39):
so they could not get numbers because they have not
been in the industry long enough, which is absurd. So
with all of that, we do want to take the
time to feature the black women who are making an
impact in that industry and who are a part of
that industry, and that includes Cats Smalls. We talked a
bit about her game Sweetheart, which is spelled sweet ex Heart.
(03:02):
It I guess came out in twenty nineteen because she've
been developing it for a minute, and she has so
many others. So if you go to our website, she
has a list of all the games that she has
worked on or all the projects that she's a part of,
and from that site it says quote people are the
center of everything I do. Over the past fifteen years,
I've championed digital design at increasing skills, mentored and managed
(03:24):
junior and senior designers, and collaborated to craft inclusive use
of experiences with agility and thoughtful consideration. I work with
designers and product development teams to gather insights, prioritize customer
pains and opportunities, create and inspiring strategic vision and bring
ideas to life. In my spare time, I make games right,
speak publicly, and work to make the world a better
(03:45):
place by organizing events across the tech and game industries.
So she does a lot, and with her years of work,
she has used her experience to help others in this industry.
With Chris Algu, she co founded the Game Devs of
Color Expo in twenty six and here's a bit of
information from her feature with the NPR article I mentioned
earlier quote. The Game Deves of Color Expo is a
(04:08):
space for developers of color to meet one another and
showcase their work. Several events have been held over the years,
some in partnership with major gaming companies like Xbox, Nintendo,
and Oculus. Besides bringing developers of color together small sets,
the Expo helps to break down the barriers that people
of color may face when trying to get into the industry.
She says, we are actively giving people money to make
(04:30):
their games, and since twenty nineteen, the Game Devs of
Color Expo has given more than three hundred and sixty
thousand dollars to game developers of color.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
And in that same interview, she talked about her journey coding. Quote.
When I was ten, I actually started to learn how
to program so I could make my own dress up dolls,
and eventually I learned that you could make games as well.
I had a tutorial for the dress up doll program
that I was able to read. It was updated in
like nineteen ninety nine, and I think I looked at
(04:59):
it it in like the year two thousand. Small's met
with others interested in programming and video games through online forums.
She said, we did collaborate, which was really fun. So
I got to learn how to make art for these
dress up doll games that we were creating, and we
would kind of trade art back and forth and figure
out how to build everybody's work into one cohesive experience,
(05:20):
which was really fun.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
And in another interview she did with Johannes Epen, sorry
for if Iams pronounced that, she talked about the importance
of diversity in the industry. She says, quote, there are
a lot of people who play video games, but it
is interesting how much less diverse the people made games are.
A lot of the things I and my friends are
doing is to make sure that there is equal access
(05:42):
to the tools and the knowledge that is out there.
Making video games is one of the easiest ways to
learn programming. Part of the reason is that in some
schools there are game development classes, and in many other
disadvantaged places there aren't a variety of classes for computer
science or video games. We are trying to show people
that there are a lot of games developers who are,
for example black. The knowledge alone that there are other
(06:03):
people like you out there is super great.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
And she continues talking about the difference it makes when
a developer has a diverse background quote, it's been really
cool to see the stuff that people come up with.
The traditional thing that people think of when thinking about
video gaming is maybe Fortnite. The more diverse freewpoints you
have more potential strange and awesome things people come up with.
Take that game called neuror spelled in Oh you Are
(06:29):
by the way, continues, They took a bunch of foods
and colors like popcorn, bubble tea, pancakes, and sausages. You
can do weird and satisfying things to them, drop bubble
popcorn and so on. It appeases the natural urge of
playing with your food and that space that has no limits.
I don't think that would have happened if that person
(06:50):
wouldn't have learned how to make video games. Getting as
many people as possible to learn how to make video
games will result in a lot of really fun, random
and interesting come nations of mechanics and ideas.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
And in that same interview, she talks about the games
Sweetheart and her thoughts behind it. Quote Sweetheart is a
game that started as an independent study project during grad school.
I kept working on it. It is this autobiographic game
using several experiences I had in college. I grew up
as a black woman in the Bronx. Going to undergrad
school in Manhattan. Going every morning from a place where
you're surrounded by so many different people from so many
(07:25):
different places to a place that was mostly white was
really disorienting to me. Also, navigating the tech industry at
the same time. Making this game has been very therapeutic, and.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
She continues explaining the name. The name is based on
cat calling. Many people called me Sweetheart on the street,
which is a very creepy and uncomfortable term for me
as an adult person. It also describes the player's experience
very nicely. The X is silent. In many Japanese video games,
they have an X in the middle of the name
to make it sound cooler. I thought that would work
(07:57):
very well. A moment where the character is pushing back
against the thing that people call her, a fun take
on the word itself. It stuck really quickly with me.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I'm excited to try this and the game took her
several years to develop and create, but she committed to it, saying, quote,
I hope that by playing it people get to see
what it was to be me at the time, being
nineteen years old, trying to figure out a lot about
my life, understanding how people saw me and not just
how I saw myself. I had a lot of fun
testing it out with people, also using a lot of
my ux design jobs going through the process. I love
(08:29):
when people talk about things I don't know like us.
I know of it, I don't know it. Oh my
godh uh huh. Good job. So it's obvious. She's been
very busy in her work and continues to create great games.
In the NPR feature, they asked her for her advice
for others who want to get into the gaming industry,
and she said, quote, find your people, because your community
(08:51):
is going to be the thing that gives you energy
to keep going and your community is going to be
what inspires you and helps you keep pushing to learn
and grow.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yes, great advice, and I obviously we want to check
out these games. We love getting recommendations from you listeners
if there's anything we missed, And that's one of the
things we love about indie games is this very thing
is seeing all these new takes so very cool. All right, listeners,
(09:19):
if you would like to contact us, you can. You
can email us at Hello at stuff Whenever Told You
dot com. You can find us on Blue Sky at
mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
When Never Told You for USO on YouTube. We have
a tea public store and we have a book you
can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always
to our super producer Christine or executive producer My and
your contributor Joey.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Thank you and I'm sorry and thanks.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
To you for listening Stuff Will Never Told You the
protection of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my
heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,
Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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