March 10, 2025 • 31 mins
Recently, the 'sin of empathy' has taken hold of some extreme parts of Western Christianity, and has fed into the rise of Christian Nationalism. What is it, and why is it so damaging?
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stephanie.
Never told you your prediction of I.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Heard you, And welcome to another Monday, Mini where we're
just going to be mad and sad and angry. Let's
put a time stamp. Today is March seventh, twenty twenty five.
This is something that well, let's just stuff been doing
(00:31):
because I it's a lot, it's a lot, okay, And
I feel like we can't talk about the downfall of
humanity in the US without talking about the continued rise
of Christian nationalism. And just recently I came up on
a new Wish theory so new to me. I didn't
realize this was being touted. I should have, but I
(00:52):
think I tried to avoid anything like with Christian nationalism
because it's so tainted to me, well, the whole Christianity
to me, on a whole, but Christian nationalism in itself.
But it is a Jewish theory within extremist Christianity, and
it's the theory of the sin of empathy. So as
(01:12):
with those current affairs content we've been publishing again trigger
warning for all the stressfulness of a world gone mad,
but specifically religious trauma. I think we're going to have
to open up to add more to the series Annie
about the actual results of how Christian nationalism has been
able to take control of the US government and us
(01:34):
watching it in real time, Like we knew what was coming,
which is why we started talking about it. The level
and the speed that it has come is overwhelming, almost
like to the point that we are all frozen in fear.
I feel like or I am maybe that's just me.
Interestingly enough, when we were talking to Molly Conger, who
(01:55):
you'll hear in the future prediction is going to to
listen to this than just kidding, I feel in the future.
But with that, like how we were talking about we
still need to talk about Project twenty twenty five and
she's like, it's too late. Oh yeah, but we certainly
need to talk about it and we don't want to.
But with all of that, for this Monday Many, I
(02:17):
wanted to take a quick look at this theory and
why continues to be brought up. First, a reminder, Empathy,
according to Merriam Webster, is quote the action of understanding,
being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts,
and experience of another and sympathy because this is very
(02:39):
related obviously, is a feeling of sincere concern for someone
who has experienced something difficult or painful. And with that,
they say the difference is sympathy and empathy both involved
feelings of concern for someone, but empathy goes beyond a
feeling of concern to include an active sharing and the
suffering person's emotional experience. So, you know, we love a
(02:59):
good definition, and I think is always good to be
reminded of what this is, and this is what we're
referring to. So this is from twenty twenty one, and
this is one of the first articles that pop up
when I try to look this up about the sin
of empathy. A far right Christian nationalist pastor by the
name of James White came onto the internet, specifically Twitter,
to talk about the sins of empathy. In it, he
(03:22):
talks about his ideas that bringing in someone's trauma and
making others feel sad or guilty is selfish and poisoning
the church. According to his site from Alpha and Omega,
in an apology at Church, he wrote what he'd originally tweeted,
which is, hey, folks, Jesus endured all the trauma needed
to accomplish a redemption and reconciliation. Dragging your emotional trauma
(03:43):
into the fellowship and making everyone else feel guilty for
it is the perfect poison for the body. And this
is capital body. Get over yourself. Is all about him,
not you. And in the second tweet, it says, when
you start with Man as image bearing creature of God,
you can understand why sympathy is good, but empathy is sinful.
(04:05):
Do not surrender our mind to the sinful emotional responses
of others. So he goes on to justify his tweets
with the following from that blog quote. Now, fact of
the matter is I packed more than sufficient context into
those two sentences to have stopped ninety five percent of
(04:25):
the absurd blowback that came my way if people were
not already infected with the quote empathy as required for
everyone and is how you are loving balderdash of a
rapidly dying culture. I mean, check it out. So this
is still his quote. I made the context that of
creation with Man as the image bearer, the exact opposite
of the secular worldview, should have been a context settler. Two,
(04:50):
I asserted a direct contrast between the goodness of sympathy
and the sinfulness of empathy. Three. I then made it
clear what is sinful about this you of empathy? It
involves the surrender of our minds to the sinful emotional
responses of others. Just so y'all understand, secular means non church,
non Christian, and I think people already know that. But
(05:12):
just in case you know, in my mind, yes people
know this, but I grew up in church. Lingo, there's
so much in his Like I said what I said
in his blog, y'all, I have once again corrupted my
search with all of this, just so you know. So
now I'm getting things that I'm like, No, but why
(05:33):
so if why I don't look at these up? If
you don't want that type of extremism in your in
your in your search results, now you should clean that.
I do need to. It's I'm a personal one too.
Oh yeah, you've got to fix that up anyway. And
to give more context of why empathy is the problem,
he further explains, quote, so what is the problem with
(05:54):
empathy today? We are, in fact told to weep with
those who weep, But that assumes those who we have
a reason for weeping that is in line with God's revelation.
We are not to weep with a drug dealer who
accidentally drops his stash down the storm drain in New
York City. We are not to weep with a bankropper
who botches the job and ends up in the slammer.
We are plainly to exercise control even in our sympathy.
(06:18):
We are not to sympathize with sin, nor are we
to sympathize with rebellion or evil. And again they are
the authority of what is sin and evil as a
context here, of course, here we could talk a lot
about the hypocritical nature of how we should also not
allow a rapist convicted felon not only lead the country
(06:40):
but put him on a pedestal that many see him
as directly appointed by the same God. Or how often
churches will hide predators by allowing forgiveness and empathy to
be the lead so that the predators can continue to
lead in the same churches. You know, don't worry about
that part. We're not talking about. That's not real sin, right.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Of course we could also go into the deeper level
of Calvinism, and that's the whole division in itself when
it comes to religion and denomination and Calvinism being essentially
like you can't do and it's God's plans, so why
even try it? People have been ordained, previously preordained into
this role that you're in, so why do you even try? Essentially,
(07:22):
there's a weird level of like seniority and like supremacy
when it comes to that conversation, I'm about to get
people mad at me. I don't care, come at me,
bro So No, it seems the sin of empathy is
when we are empathetic to homosexuality, which he uses as
an example of quote the Great Empathy commandment that has
(07:44):
been used for the quote degradation of Christian morals and ethics. Well,
from that blog quote, sixty years ago, it was almost
unthinkable that Christian people would buy a majority think homosexuality
a quote gift from God. But that is the case today.
Why empathy? And this is still his quotes. He's saying,
(08:05):
walk a mile in their shoes, consider their life, enter
into their emotional experience, and enter into as capitalized. Then
it went from a simple homosexuality to the redefining of marriage,
now polyamory, polygamy, and with twenty fifteen. Every form of
gender destroying quote experience, you must empathize. You must quote
(08:28):
enter in, or you're unloving already. The push to empathize
with those who naturally experience quote intergenerational love pedophiles is
in the academy and the culture. Marrying your cat or
your Siamese fighting fish is just around the corner. Just
empathize with the experience, validate it, then submit okay, and
(08:52):
it should be noted as ady you talked about before.
He uses every stereotypical offensive defense against not even stereotypical,
just like outright wrong, a defense against homosexuality, pedophilia, marrying
your pets, etc.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I'm so interested about a Siamese fighting fish. I don't
know if that's to.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Say it out loud, because I don't know what that
is up and he just wanted to be racist about it.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
At the same time, it's quite possible that feels like
that guy's mo oh, and I don't know him.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
We don't know him, we don't know that's man. Not
sorry to that man. If you are a person who
knows about fish and that is actually a fighting that
is a thing, please send us that picture because I
need to know what this is and who's being racist?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah, wow, we laughed, so we don't cry.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I read all. I read it so you didn't have to. Yes,
they you do every trick in the book in order
to make you feel insane for being kind and compassionate.
I mean, to be fair, this is one step away
from love, uh hate the sin love the sinner mentality,
which by the way, is so condescending. But there's really
(10:20):
like nothing I can say to that, but they do.
They He hits on every nerve of like what is
what's next? You're gonna you're gonna marry, You're gonna marry
your favorite shoe and say that's your like if that
y'all owe me present to the people that I bought
your heterosexual wedding day gifts to and all y'all owe
(10:40):
me money. So I'm gonna marry my shoes so you can.
That's gonna be take it out of context somewhere. But
like he does, he gets through every level of like
insulting manner to say homosexuality is so bad and leads
to other sins But by the way, I have never
heard anybody, especially from like those who struggle to come
(11:03):
out saying this was a gift from God, like saying
that they have learned to love themselves. Yeah, I have
heard that. Yeah, but the struggle and the fight and
the and the like constant way to prove their humanity
that they A lot of people wouldn't necessarily say that.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
No, And I've told the story before in middle school.
In middle school, I would pray to God, please you
did not make me gay. Please let that not be true.
It's yeah, it is. I was scared of it, right,
and it's really sad to look back now. But no,
(11:43):
I'd never considered it a gift from God. I think,
like the other part of that conversation is there's a
lot of like, well, why would God make me like this?
Are you telling me I'm defective?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Clearly that's what this guys.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yes, yes, And obviously all gay people are in polyamorous relationships,
all of them.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, because we're so sexual, even the asexual.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Ones we love because we don't want to cry, y'all.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So un with that. White is having this conversation in
twenty twenty one, so obviously he has been ascribed to this,
and the idea kind of has kept spreading, if not
just growing and has become political. Two books are or
have been written with this idea, won by Alibeth Stucky
titled Toxic Empathy How Progressive exploit Christian compassion?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
By the way, her website is bright blue and so lovely,
and she's exactly what you would imagine as a Christian
white woman with all the makeup. Anyway, a bit from
her website Toxicempathy dot com, they write and Toxic Empathy.
Alibeth Stucky argues that empathy has become a tool of
manipulation by left wing activists, wholly people into believing that
(13:01):
they must adopt progressive positions to be loving. She explores
the five most heated issues through which toxic empathy is deployed. Abortion, gender, sexuality, immigration,
and social justice. Progressives use catchy mantras to present their
perspective as empathetic, like abortion is healthcare, love is love,
or no human being is illegal, but in each case
(13:23):
they ignore the other side of the moral equation. For example,
abortion is presented as compassionate for the woman, but what
about the human life the procedure kills. The book isn't
about killing empathy, It's about submitting our empathy to God's
definitions of love, goodness, and justice. Stucky exposes the logical
pitfaults and moral consequences of toxic empathy, equipping questions with
(13:45):
research back to biblical truths to dismantle the progressive lives
that have permeated our culture and our church. So I
love the only thing that they can argue about in
the actual summary is abortion. They can't talk about immigration
and social justice much in itself because I'm like, how
how what?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah? And i' mean going back to the hypocrisy, it's
just it feels, so are you being a compassionate Christian?
Like this doesn't feel like you're listening to the to
(14:28):
yourself talk?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I mean, of course the level of like you're killing
a baby, That rhetoric in itself has been used forever, yes,
and then telling people well if you have been aborted.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, well, and it's also like it it's so it's
just so hypocritical because you know, like these are these
are just phrases like abortion is healthcare, love is left.
There's a lot more nuanced to that stuff. There's a
lot more behind that. There's a lot of research backing
that strife fact, but to just use it as like
(15:06):
they're trying to make me care about someone else, and
here's why it's bad sin.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
How dare you? Oh my goodness, we're I obviously I
have not read this book. Everything comes from just directly
from the site and my opinions and my assumptions, Like,
let's say that on what this is going to be,
I'm sure there's going to be tales of crimes committed
by refugees or whatever that are that happened, but they're
(15:33):
dropping the bucket compared to the crimes that have happened
by white men. Let's just be honest. I mean again,
our president of fellin yep. So the one that is
coming out this year is by Joe Rigney titled The
Sin of Empathy, Compassion and its Counterfeits. So Rygney is
actually credited with coining the term in twenty nineteen for
(15:56):
his church. So he is the one that people are
saying he's the one that began this. In his blog,
he uses a CS Lewis book screwtape letters to get
this point across. So here's a bit from Baptistnews dot com.
Writing to his imaginary friend Wormwood. Rigney advises quote by
elevating empathy over compassion as a superior virtue. There is
(16:18):
now an entire culture devoted to the total immersion of empathy. Books,
articles in social media all trumpet the importance of checking
one's own beliefs, values, judgments, and reasons at the door
of empathy. So in this article written by Mark Wingfield,
which by the way, I like he must really be
in this as well, because he's his articles kind of
(16:38):
keep popping up for me in baptistnews dot com. And
he is a Christian, by the way. In this conversation,
but he wrote this in twenty twenty one, and he
goes on to explain how Rigney now sees empathy as
a sin, that empathy trumps any religious ideal and belief
therefore has become an idealized emotion used as a weapon
against Christians. This is what he say, Rigney is saying.
(16:59):
And here they often argue the need for sympathy said,
and when I say that, I don't mean Wingfield, I
mean Rigny and those who believe this idea. Interestingly, we
in social work believe people and I believe people like
in the therapy world also talk about the differences of
sympathy and empathy, and sometimes used in conversation of what
(17:20):
a sociopath and a psychopath can experience due to the
lack of empathy, like, without it, you're probably a sociopath
or a psychopath or a narcissist, somewhere on that level
where you cannot understand other people and therefore you are
so involved in yourself that you do not care about
the harm you cause because you don't have empathy. The
(17:43):
sounds like an overarching statement. So of course I'm not
saying everyone that's not the case, but we're saying that
in this conversation that can be one of the things
that people look at and be like, oh, it looks
like he's lacking empathy. That explains why he did it
this way because he could not understand the humanity. And
again not for all people, because I've met people who
couldn't who have admitted they couldn't empathize, but they sympathized
(18:05):
and understood the good and wrong in this situation. So
believe that that. I'm sure the theories have moved. It's
a lot more complex than that, but there's still something
to note. So moving on. According to the different articles
that talk about this big debate. Many Christians disagree full
hardly with this take and have even left churches due
(18:26):
to this take. So Wrigley's church was actually I don't
know if you know who John Piper is, but he
wrote the book Desiring God and Yo when I was
in my Christian world, that was huge. That was huge.
There's a lot of shame I have in that realm
of the world. So for those of you who may
have known me from my years of Christian antics, I
(18:50):
am so sorry. I've changed. I am so sorry. But
with all of that, the people like in that church
actually split with him Rigney and Rigney left that church
because it became such a huge thing. They had this
whole one hundred and fifth anniversary that they had to
pause because of this debate that he'd started on their side.
So again, not all Christians feel this way. One such
(19:11):
person who is pushing back on this doctrine includes Scott McKnight,
and he is quoted in Wingfield's articles saying, from the
best I can tell, these denouncers of empathy are distinguishing
the virtue of compassion from the potential vice of empathy.
He writes, the former means to suffer with the latter
to suffer in or to fill with and fill in.
(19:31):
The former is rational, the latter appears to be less
rational and perhaps irrational, at least in their constructions. It's
okay to suffer with, but not to suffer in this view,
McKnight says, this may be the most unwise piece of
pastoral theology I've seen in my life. Pastors without empathy
are not pastoring. Dang right. I'm like, okay, okay, see,
(19:54):
we're gonna give both sides to this, because I don't
believe it's everyone and is not. Here's another quote from
that article. Quote. Shane mo is a licensed marriage and
family therapist and trauma treatment provider in private practice in
the Twin Cities area. He has extensive experience treating a mental, emotional,
and relational health concerns in the Christian community. He sees
in the empathy as sin crowd a fear of vulnerability.
(20:17):
These advocates quote appear to assume that empathy inherently makes
one untethered, that one can't experience empathy towards someone else
without losing oneself, getting hijacked, or sort of becoming the
other in belief or practice. Mose talking about the fear
of vulnerability from this group of male believers specifically, So
he goes on to say within that article, Yes, allowing
(20:40):
ourselves to experience empathy can make us more vulnerable to
gasp the influence of those who think differently than we do,
he explains, And if one lives in a perpetual state
of spiritual hypervigilance or fear of potentially being wrong or corrupt,
and thus with a deep seated existential anxiety surrounding theological
eye theological differences and change, one might consequently come to
(21:03):
see empathy as a threat. And as we've talked about
this before, this theory could be an issue of control
within the religious world. As So concludes in his interview
with this comment, if someone is saying you can't experience
empathy without being compromised by another person, there's a good
chance they're projecting out of their own psychosocial emotional boundary deficits,
(21:25):
lack of emotional intelligence or absence of self differentiation. Mowarms.
There are reasons some of my client's family members who
exhibit narcissistic traits and who have engaged in consistent patterns
of spiritual and psychological abuse toward My clients have been
attracted to this empathy as a sin teaching and to
this church. It feeds perfectly into their narcissism and psychological
(21:47):
dependence upon maintaining power and control. Now that's something that
we were talking all throughout our Religious Trauma episodes about
what this is. It is not about spirituality, it's not
about beliefs, it's not about stating peace. It is about control.
And this narrative fits in perfectly if they were losing
people because people were like, wait, why are you being mean?
(22:08):
That doesn't seem christ like. They were losing people that way,
so they're like, Eh, no, that's the sin. You're being fooled.
Don't care. You can feel sorry for them, but being
sorry for them is enough. Pity is enough, but you
shouldn't be accepting of anything. So within this conversation, it's
(22:29):
going to become more and more of a defense within
the right wing religious conservatives. When Episcopal Bishop Mary and
Buddy came on to speak at the inaugural prayer service,
Trump supporters were upset as she made a plea to
the new president for mercy, with her words quote, let
me make one final plea, mister President, the soft spoken
bishop said from the pulpit of the Washington National Cathedral,
(22:52):
I asked you to have mercy upon the people in
our country who are scared.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Now.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
There are gay, lesbian, and transgendered children in Democratic, Republican
and independent families, some who feel for their lives. The
vast majority of immigrants are not criminals, calling them good
neighbors and faithful members of religious communities. So that was
a quote from the Daily Costs, who were just like
Republicans are mad. They're mad, and we're going to actually
(23:18):
talk a little more in a different episode about her,
but like that was it. That was her speech was
about unity and coming together and and knowing that this
is a really hard time. But having the president there,
she's like, let me ask, let me just ask you
please think about these people. And she is very self spoken,
like nothing is threatening, yelling or any of that. She
just quietly said this no nicer than I could mm hm. Obviously,
(23:44):
So the right wing community came out swinging, including tweets
and posts reminding their followers quote, do not commit the
sin of empathy. So Ben Garrett went on saying in
his tweet, quote, this snake is God's enemies and yours too.
She hates God and his people. You need to properly
hate in response. She is not merely deceived, but is
(24:07):
a deceiver. Your eye shall not pity like he full
on tells them to hate her. Wow for saying marciful hate.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Wow, that's not what I remember in my during my
tenure at church.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
And I believe he's a deacon and writes for a
church as well, so as a former believer in myself,
this idea has baffled me. I have I've thoughts, so
many thoughts, but it's like baffling to understand why they
(24:47):
would do this. But at the same time, you know
why they would do this. We know why. We know
the play. We've already talked about it, we've made it
an eight to ten part series. We know why. But
after using emotion as a tool to reign in their
grow with fear and hell, they now have to turn
that around to remind people to not feel too much,
because to truly love is something that makes many people
(25:10):
see the truth. So like, maybe I'm saying that too optimistically,
Like people who really realize that what's happening here, you
know that maybe that's the point of like, oh wait, this,
this seems off. This seems off again. Maybe I'm being
too optimistic, but like we noted, there's a lot of
(25:31):
people who are like, this is not this is not it.
This is not it. This is not the Jesus I know.
Interesting side note, some have stated that Rigney has made
statements implying marital rape does not exist, and I believe
he said that in sermons, but I could not find
the sources specifically. And I will say this was a
quick research, like it took me less time to do
this than my typical episodes. But there's plenty of conversations
(25:54):
out there. So what I did see is that groups
are using his books coming out as well his conversations
before his blogs, because these aren't many of papers on
this to remind their followers that women are very vulnerable
to empathy and that is why they need to be controlled.
From your source. One dot com dominic Vonnie talks about
a sermon by Gray City church pastors who apparently Rickney
(26:17):
has mentored and it has many conversations with them where
he states the church pastor states empathy almost needs to
be struck from a Christian vocabulary. McPherson said, that's the pastor.
Empathy is dangerous. Empathy is toxic. Empathy will align you
with hell. And it's women who are especially susceptible to
(26:38):
feeling empathy. That's why men need to control who they
are in contact with. It's not ungodly for a man
to speak into who his wife is friends with, who
she can hang out with, who she listens to. McPherson says,
women can be vulnerable two friends and those she has
a history with, and it is a husband's job to
control those relationships lest she do you participate in spread
(27:01):
or listen to gossip and slander against the church like
Maphearson McMullen, who is another pastor, connects gossip to empathy
and frames them as largely female sins, and that seems
to be the beginning of one of the hour long sermon,
continuing on with the explanation of women being the weaker sex.
Women who are strong causes divide relationships. They are the
(27:24):
ones who plant the sin of divorce, and that's why
they're so much divorce. Like this is all within the sermon.
Of course, within all of this, we have the everlasting
sin of impurity. Because you got to add that in
there somewhere. So in a medium dot com post, Dan
Foster writes, quote, according to Rigney, compassion is good because
it allows you to care while maintaining control. Empathy, however,
(27:47):
is dangerous because it involves stepping into another person's experience
so deeply that you risk losing perspective. But this isn't
just about perspective, It's about purity. Under Ringney's logic, the
real danger of EmPATH the isn't just that it clouds judgment.
It's that it might lead us to feel too much
for the wrong people. That if we sit too long
(28:07):
with the grieving, the suffering, the broken, we might start
to understand them, And if we understand them, we might
start to care about their pain in a way that
disrupts our theology. That's the fear. So this whole level
which is coming out in force, is again mainly due
to the whole lack of asking for empathy from an
(28:29):
administration that has none asking for mercy. There's a lot happening,
and the underlying reasons are different for different people. But
as we continue to talk about how Christian nationalism has
come into power, we have to understand some of their
tactics and how dangerous their rhetoric is. The loss of
empathy means a loss of humanity. Again, it's very obvious
(28:51):
by the many articles and please from the other Christians
about how dangerous and wrong this narrative is. That many
Christians do not believe in this idea, but many are
ignoring it for the sake of unity or just the
sake of being comfortable. And that is so dangerous, not
holding your own people, their own people to a standard
(29:12):
and calling out what they see is wrong. And that
is a problem. And I say this as I have
a whole family who I am scared of losing my
family with this type of rhetoric. And the minute they
speak this rhetic to me, I know it'll be over
like that. It's going to end so many things. That
means I've lost my second family literally like my biological
(29:34):
family and my adoptive family. But it has to be
at the very least they need to understand how uncomfortable
this is. That they need to see how oddly like
they went from people who my mother is the queen
of empathy to the reason why I was adopted in
the first place. Can't understand how this is so damaging
(29:59):
just because she just ignores it and says things like
they don't really mean that. M hm, that's not what
they really mean. Yeah, and for the same people who
sit here and going, yeah, but I'm fysically conservative, that's conservative.
That's why I voted that way. M h and not
get I know our listeners you probably are like, no,
I'm with you, I'm with you, But I think it's
(30:20):
something to know that we have to know exactly what
is being said, yeah, and why it's dangerous. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
I mean again, especially given where our politics are, we
have to pay attention to a lot of really terrible
stuff unfortunately. But yes, whoa listeners. If you have any
thoughts about this, please let us know. You can email
(30:46):
us at Hello at stuff Whenever Told You dot com.
You can find us on thu ski at mom Stuff
podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff When Never
Told You. We're on YouTube, we have a tea public store,
and we have a book you can get wherever you
get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,
executive Bruce and Maya, and a contributor Joey. Thank you
and thanks to you for listening Stuff Never told you
protection of my heart Radio. For more podcasts from my
(31:06):
Heart Radio, you can check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stephanie.
Never told you your prediction of I.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Heard you, And welcome to another Monday, Mini where we're
just going to be mad and sad and angry. Let's
put a time stamp. Today is March seventh, twenty twenty five.
This is something that well, let's just stuff been doing
(00:31):
because I it's a lot, it's a lot, okay, And
I feel like we can't talk about the downfall of
humanity in the US without talking about the continued rise
of Christian nationalism. And just recently I came up on
a new Wish theory so new to me. I didn't
realize this was being touted. I should have, but I
(00:52):
think I tried to avoid anything like with Christian nationalism
because it's so tainted to me, well, the whole Christianity
to me, on a whole, but Christian nationalism in itself.
But it is a Jewish theory within extremist Christianity, and
it's the theory of the sin of empathy. So as
(01:12):
with those current affairs content we've been publishing again trigger
warning for all the stressfulness of a world gone mad,
but specifically religious trauma. I think we're going to have
to open up to add more to the series Annie
about the actual results of how Christian nationalism has been
able to take control of the US government and us
(01:34):
watching it in real time, Like we knew what was coming,
which is why we started talking about it. The level
and the speed that it has come is overwhelming, almost
like to the point that we are all frozen in fear.
I feel like or I am maybe that's just me.
Interestingly enough, when we were talking to Molly Conger, who
(01:55):
you'll hear in the future prediction is going to to
listen to this than just kidding, I feel in the future.
But with that, like how we were talking about we
still need to talk about Project twenty twenty five and
she's like, it's too late. Oh yeah, but we certainly
need to talk about it and we don't want to.
But with all of that, for this Monday Many, I
(02:17):
wanted to take a quick look at this theory and
why continues to be brought up. First, a reminder, Empathy,
according to Merriam Webster, is quote the action of understanding,
being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts,
and experience of another and sympathy because this is very
(02:39):
related obviously, is a feeling of sincere concern for someone
who has experienced something difficult or painful. And with that,
they say the difference is sympathy and empathy both involved
feelings of concern for someone, but empathy goes beyond a
feeling of concern to include an active sharing and the
suffering person's emotional experience. So, you know, we love a
(02:59):
good definition, and I think is always good to be
reminded of what this is, and this is what we're
referring to. So this is from twenty twenty one, and
this is one of the first articles that pop up
when I try to look this up about the sin
of empathy. A far right Christian nationalist pastor by the
name of James White came onto the internet, specifically Twitter,
to talk about the sins of empathy. In it, he
(03:22):
talks about his ideas that bringing in someone's trauma and
making others feel sad or guilty is selfish and poisoning
the church. According to his site from Alpha and Omega,
in an apology at Church, he wrote what he'd originally tweeted,
which is, hey, folks, Jesus endured all the trauma needed
to accomplish a redemption and reconciliation. Dragging your emotional trauma
(03:43):
into the fellowship and making everyone else feel guilty for
it is the perfect poison for the body. And this
is capital body. Get over yourself. Is all about him,
not you. And in the second tweet, it says, when
you start with Man as image bearing creature of God,
you can understand why sympathy is good, but empathy is sinful.
(04:05):
Do not surrender our mind to the sinful emotional responses
of others. So he goes on to justify his tweets
with the following from that blog quote. Now, fact of
the matter is I packed more than sufficient context into
those two sentences to have stopped ninety five percent of
(04:25):
the absurd blowback that came my way if people were
not already infected with the quote empathy as required for
everyone and is how you are loving balderdash of a
rapidly dying culture. I mean, check it out. So this
is still his quote. I made the context that of
creation with Man as the image bearer, the exact opposite
of the secular worldview, should have been a context settler. Two,
(04:50):
I asserted a direct contrast between the goodness of sympathy
and the sinfulness of empathy. Three. I then made it
clear what is sinful about this you of empathy? It
involves the surrender of our minds to the sinful emotional
responses of others. Just so y'all understand, secular means non church,
non Christian, and I think people already know that. But
(05:12):
just in case you know, in my mind, yes people
know this, but I grew up in church. Lingo, there's
so much in his Like I said what I said
in his blog, y'all, I have once again corrupted my
search with all of this, just so you know. So
now I'm getting things that I'm like, No, but why
(05:33):
so if why I don't look at these up? If
you don't want that type of extremism in your in
your in your search results, now you should clean that.
I do need to. It's I'm a personal one too.
Oh yeah, you've got to fix that up anyway. And
to give more context of why empathy is the problem,
he further explains, quote, so what is the problem with
(05:54):
empathy today? We are, in fact told to weep with
those who weep, But that assumes those who we have
a reason for weeping that is in line with God's revelation.
We are not to weep with a drug dealer who
accidentally drops his stash down the storm drain in New
York City. We are not to weep with a bankropper
who botches the job and ends up in the slammer.
We are plainly to exercise control even in our sympathy.
(06:18):
We are not to sympathize with sin, nor are we
to sympathize with rebellion or evil. And again they are
the authority of what is sin and evil as a
context here, of course, here we could talk a lot
about the hypocritical nature of how we should also not
allow a rapist convicted felon not only lead the country
(06:40):
but put him on a pedestal that many see him
as directly appointed by the same God. Or how often
churches will hide predators by allowing forgiveness and empathy to
be the lead so that the predators can continue to
lead in the same churches. You know, don't worry about
that part. We're not talking about. That's not real sin, right.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Of course we could also go into the deeper level
of Calvinism, and that's the whole division in itself when
it comes to religion and denomination and Calvinism being essentially
like you can't do and it's God's plans, so why
even try it? People have been ordained, previously preordained into
this role that you're in, so why do you even try? Essentially,
(07:22):
there's a weird level of like seniority and like supremacy
when it comes to that conversation, I'm about to get
people mad at me. I don't care, come at me,
bro So No, it seems the sin of empathy is
when we are empathetic to homosexuality, which he uses as
an example of quote the Great Empathy commandment that has
(07:44):
been used for the quote degradation of Christian morals and ethics. Well,
from that blog quote, sixty years ago, it was almost
unthinkable that Christian people would buy a majority think homosexuality
a quote gift from God. But that is the case today.
Why empathy? And this is still his quotes. He's saying,
(08:05):
walk a mile in their shoes, consider their life, enter
into their emotional experience, and enter into as capitalized. Then
it went from a simple homosexuality to the redefining of marriage,
now polyamory, polygamy, and with twenty fifteen. Every form of
gender destroying quote experience, you must empathize. You must quote
(08:28):
enter in, or you're unloving already. The push to empathize
with those who naturally experience quote intergenerational love pedophiles is
in the academy and the culture. Marrying your cat or
your Siamese fighting fish is just around the corner. Just
empathize with the experience, validate it, then submit okay, and
(08:52):
it should be noted as ady you talked about before.
He uses every stereotypical offensive defense against not even stereotypical,
just like outright wrong, a defense against homosexuality, pedophilia, marrying
your pets, etc.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I'm so interested about a Siamese fighting fish. I don't
know if that's to.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Say it out loud, because I don't know what that
is up and he just wanted to be racist about it.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
At the same time, it's quite possible that feels like
that guy's mo oh, and I don't know him.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
We don't know him, we don't know that's man. Not
sorry to that man. If you are a person who
knows about fish and that is actually a fighting that
is a thing, please send us that picture because I
need to know what this is and who's being racist?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah, wow, we laughed, so we don't cry.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I read all. I read it so you didn't have to. Yes,
they you do every trick in the book in order
to make you feel insane for being kind and compassionate.
I mean, to be fair, this is one step away
from love, uh hate the sin love the sinner mentality,
which by the way, is so condescending. But there's really
(10:20):
like nothing I can say to that, but they do.
They He hits on every nerve of like what is
what's next? You're gonna you're gonna marry, You're gonna marry
your favorite shoe and say that's your like if that
y'all owe me present to the people that I bought
your heterosexual wedding day gifts to and all y'all owe
(10:40):
me money. So I'm gonna marry my shoes so you can.
That's gonna be take it out of context somewhere. But
like he does, he gets through every level of like
insulting manner to say homosexuality is so bad and leads
to other sins But by the way, I have never
heard anybody, especially from like those who struggle to come
(11:03):
out saying this was a gift from God, like saying
that they have learned to love themselves. Yeah, I have
heard that. Yeah, but the struggle and the fight and
the and the like constant way to prove their humanity
that they A lot of people wouldn't necessarily say that.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
No, And I've told the story before in middle school.
In middle school, I would pray to God, please you
did not make me gay. Please let that not be true.
It's yeah, it is. I was scared of it, right,
and it's really sad to look back now. But no,
(11:43):
I'd never considered it a gift from God. I think,
like the other part of that conversation is there's a
lot of like, well, why would God make me like this?
Are you telling me I'm defective?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Clearly that's what this guys.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yes, yes, And obviously all gay people are in polyamorous relationships,
all of them.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, because we're so sexual, even the asexual.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Ones we love because we don't want to cry, y'all.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So un with that. White is having this conversation in
twenty twenty one, so obviously he has been ascribed to this,
and the idea kind of has kept spreading, if not
just growing and has become political. Two books are or
have been written with this idea, won by Alibeth Stucky
titled Toxic Empathy How Progressive exploit Christian compassion?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
By the way, her website is bright blue and so lovely,
and she's exactly what you would imagine as a Christian
white woman with all the makeup. Anyway, a bit from
her website Toxicempathy dot com, they write and Toxic Empathy.
Alibeth Stucky argues that empathy has become a tool of
manipulation by left wing activists, wholly people into believing that
(13:01):
they must adopt progressive positions to be loving. She explores
the five most heated issues through which toxic empathy is deployed. Abortion, gender, sexuality, immigration,
and social justice. Progressives use catchy mantras to present their
perspective as empathetic, like abortion is healthcare, love is love,
or no human being is illegal, but in each case
(13:23):
they ignore the other side of the moral equation. For example,
abortion is presented as compassionate for the woman, but what
about the human life the procedure kills. The book isn't
about killing empathy, It's about submitting our empathy to God's
definitions of love, goodness, and justice. Stucky exposes the logical
pitfaults and moral consequences of toxic empathy, equipping questions with
(13:45):
research back to biblical truths to dismantle the progressive lives
that have permeated our culture and our church. So I
love the only thing that they can argue about in
the actual summary is abortion. They can't talk about immigration
and social justice much in itself because I'm like, how
how what?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah? And i' mean going back to the hypocrisy, it's
just it feels, so are you being a compassionate Christian?
Like this doesn't feel like you're listening to the to
(14:28):
yourself talk?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I mean, of course the level of like you're killing
a baby, That rhetoric in itself has been used forever, yes,
and then telling people well if you have been aborted.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, well, and it's also like it it's so it's
just so hypocritical because you know, like these are these
are just phrases like abortion is healthcare, love is left.
There's a lot more nuanced to that stuff. There's a
lot more behind that. There's a lot of research backing
that strife fact, but to just use it as like
(15:06):
they're trying to make me care about someone else, and
here's why it's bad sin.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
How dare you? Oh my goodness, we're I obviously I
have not read this book. Everything comes from just directly
from the site and my opinions and my assumptions, Like,
let's say that on what this is going to be,
I'm sure there's going to be tales of crimes committed
by refugees or whatever that are that happened, but they're
(15:33):
dropping the bucket compared to the crimes that have happened
by white men. Let's just be honest. I mean again,
our president of fellin yep. So the one that is
coming out this year is by Joe Rigney titled The
Sin of Empathy, Compassion and its Counterfeits. So Rygney is
actually credited with coining the term in twenty nineteen for
(15:56):
his church. So he is the one that people are
saying he's the one that began this. In his blog,
he uses a CS Lewis book screwtape letters to get
this point across. So here's a bit from Baptistnews dot com.
Writing to his imaginary friend Wormwood. Rigney advises quote by
elevating empathy over compassion as a superior virtue. There is
(16:18):
now an entire culture devoted to the total immersion of empathy. Books,
articles in social media all trumpet the importance of checking
one's own beliefs, values, judgments, and reasons at the door
of empathy. So in this article written by Mark Wingfield,
which by the way, I like he must really be
in this as well, because he's his articles kind of
(16:38):
keep popping up for me in baptistnews dot com. And
he is a Christian, by the way. In this conversation,
but he wrote this in twenty twenty one, and he
goes on to explain how Rigney now sees empathy as
a sin, that empathy trumps any religious ideal and belief
therefore has become an idealized emotion used as a weapon
against Christians. This is what he say, Rigney is saying.
(16:59):
And here they often argue the need for sympathy said,
and when I say that, I don't mean Wingfield, I
mean Rigny and those who believe this idea. Interestingly, we
in social work believe people and I believe people like
in the therapy world also talk about the differences of
sympathy and empathy, and sometimes used in conversation of what
(17:20):
a sociopath and a psychopath can experience due to the
lack of empathy, like, without it, you're probably a sociopath
or a psychopath or a narcissist, somewhere on that level
where you cannot understand other people and therefore you are
so involved in yourself that you do not care about
the harm you cause because you don't have empathy. The
(17:43):
sounds like an overarching statement. So of course I'm not
saying everyone that's not the case, but we're saying that
in this conversation that can be one of the things
that people look at and be like, oh, it looks
like he's lacking empathy. That explains why he did it
this way because he could not understand the humanity. And
again not for all people, because I've met people who
couldn't who have admitted they couldn't empathize, but they sympathized
(18:05):
and understood the good and wrong in this situation. So
believe that that. I'm sure the theories have moved. It's
a lot more complex than that, but there's still something
to note. So moving on. According to the different articles
that talk about this big debate. Many Christians disagree full
hardly with this take and have even left churches due
(18:26):
to this take. So Wrigley's church was actually I don't
know if you know who John Piper is, but he
wrote the book Desiring God and Yo when I was
in my Christian world, that was huge. That was huge.
There's a lot of shame I have in that realm
of the world. So for those of you who may
have known me from my years of Christian antics, I
(18:50):
am so sorry. I've changed. I am so sorry. But
with all of that, the people like in that church
actually split with him Rigney and Rigney left that church
because it became such a huge thing. They had this
whole one hundred and fifth anniversary that they had to
pause because of this debate that he'd started on their side.
So again, not all Christians feel this way. One such
(19:11):
person who is pushing back on this doctrine includes Scott McKnight,
and he is quoted in Wingfield's articles saying, from the
best I can tell, these denouncers of empathy are distinguishing
the virtue of compassion from the potential vice of empathy.
He writes, the former means to suffer with the latter
to suffer in or to fill with and fill in.
(19:31):
The former is rational, the latter appears to be less
rational and perhaps irrational, at least in their constructions. It's
okay to suffer with, but not to suffer in this view,
McKnight says, this may be the most unwise piece of
pastoral theology I've seen in my life. Pastors without empathy
are not pastoring. Dang right. I'm like, okay, okay, see,
(19:54):
we're gonna give both sides to this, because I don't
believe it's everyone and is not. Here's another quote from
that article. Quote. Shane mo is a licensed marriage and
family therapist and trauma treatment provider in private practice in
the Twin Cities area. He has extensive experience treating a mental, emotional,
and relational health concerns in the Christian community. He sees
in the empathy as sin crowd a fear of vulnerability.
(20:17):
These advocates quote appear to assume that empathy inherently makes
one untethered, that one can't experience empathy towards someone else
without losing oneself, getting hijacked, or sort of becoming the
other in belief or practice. Mose talking about the fear
of vulnerability from this group of male believers specifically, So
he goes on to say within that article, Yes, allowing
(20:40):
ourselves to experience empathy can make us more vulnerable to
gasp the influence of those who think differently than we do,
he explains, And if one lives in a perpetual state
of spiritual hypervigilance or fear of potentially being wrong or corrupt,
and thus with a deep seated existential anxiety surrounding theological
eye theological differences and change, one might consequently come to
(21:03):
see empathy as a threat. And as we've talked about
this before, this theory could be an issue of control
within the religious world. As So concludes in his interview
with this comment, if someone is saying you can't experience
empathy without being compromised by another person, there's a good
chance they're projecting out of their own psychosocial emotional boundary deficits,
(21:25):
lack of emotional intelligence or absence of self differentiation. Mowarms.
There are reasons some of my client's family members who
exhibit narcissistic traits and who have engaged in consistent patterns
of spiritual and psychological abuse toward My clients have been
attracted to this empathy as a sin teaching and to
this church. It feeds perfectly into their narcissism and psychological
(21:47):
dependence upon maintaining power and control. Now that's something that
we were talking all throughout our Religious Trauma episodes about
what this is. It is not about spirituality, it's not
about beliefs, it's not about stating peace. It is about control.
And this narrative fits in perfectly if they were losing
people because people were like, wait, why are you being mean?
(22:08):
That doesn't seem christ like. They were losing people that way,
so they're like, Eh, no, that's the sin. You're being fooled.
Don't care. You can feel sorry for them, but being
sorry for them is enough. Pity is enough, but you
shouldn't be accepting of anything. So within this conversation, it's
(22:29):
going to become more and more of a defense within
the right wing religious conservatives. When Episcopal Bishop Mary and
Buddy came on to speak at the inaugural prayer service,
Trump supporters were upset as she made a plea to
the new president for mercy, with her words quote, let
me make one final plea, mister President, the soft spoken
bishop said from the pulpit of the Washington National Cathedral,
(22:52):
I asked you to have mercy upon the people in
our country who are scared.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Now.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
There are gay, lesbian, and transgendered children in Democratic, Republican
and independent families, some who feel for their lives. The
vast majority of immigrants are not criminals, calling them good
neighbors and faithful members of religious communities. So that was
a quote from the Daily Costs, who were just like
Republicans are mad. They're mad, and we're going to actually
(23:18):
talk a little more in a different episode about her,
but like that was it. That was her speech was
about unity and coming together and and knowing that this
is a really hard time. But having the president there,
she's like, let me ask, let me just ask you
please think about these people. And she is very self spoken,
like nothing is threatening, yelling or any of that. She
just quietly said this no nicer than I could mm hm. Obviously,
(23:44):
So the right wing community came out swinging, including tweets
and posts reminding their followers quote, do not commit the
sin of empathy. So Ben Garrett went on saying in
his tweet, quote, this snake is God's enemies and yours too.
She hates God and his people. You need to properly
hate in response. She is not merely deceived, but is
(24:07):
a deceiver. Your eye shall not pity like he full
on tells them to hate her. Wow for saying marciful hate.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Wow, that's not what I remember in my during my
tenure at church.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
And I believe he's a deacon and writes for a
church as well, so as a former believer in myself,
this idea has baffled me. I have I've thoughts, so
many thoughts, but it's like baffling to understand why they
(24:47):
would do this. But at the same time, you know
why they would do this. We know why. We know
the play. We've already talked about it, we've made it
an eight to ten part series. We know why. But
after using emotion as a tool to reign in their
grow with fear and hell, they now have to turn
that around to remind people to not feel too much,
because to truly love is something that makes many people
(25:10):
see the truth. So like, maybe I'm saying that too optimistically,
Like people who really realize that what's happening here, you
know that maybe that's the point of like, oh wait, this,
this seems off. This seems off again. Maybe I'm being
too optimistic, but like we noted, there's a lot of
(25:31):
people who are like, this is not this is not it.
This is not it. This is not the Jesus I know.
Interesting side note, some have stated that Rigney has made
statements implying marital rape does not exist, and I believe
he said that in sermons, but I could not find
the sources specifically. And I will say this was a
quick research, like it took me less time to do
this than my typical episodes. But there's plenty of conversations
(25:54):
out there. So what I did see is that groups
are using his books coming out as well his conversations
before his blogs, because these aren't many of papers on
this to remind their followers that women are very vulnerable
to empathy and that is why they need to be controlled.
From your source. One dot com dominic Vonnie talks about
a sermon by Gray City church pastors who apparently Rickney
(26:17):
has mentored and it has many conversations with them where
he states the church pastor states empathy almost needs to
be struck from a Christian vocabulary. McPherson said, that's the pastor.
Empathy is dangerous. Empathy is toxic. Empathy will align you
with hell. And it's women who are especially susceptible to
(26:38):
feeling empathy. That's why men need to control who they
are in contact with. It's not ungodly for a man
to speak into who his wife is friends with, who
she can hang out with, who she listens to. McPherson says,
women can be vulnerable two friends and those she has
a history with, and it is a husband's job to
control those relationships lest she do you participate in spread
(27:01):
or listen to gossip and slander against the church like
Maphearson McMullen, who is another pastor, connects gossip to empathy
and frames them as largely female sins, and that seems
to be the beginning of one of the hour long sermon,
continuing on with the explanation of women being the weaker sex.
Women who are strong causes divide relationships. They are the
(27:24):
ones who plant the sin of divorce, and that's why
they're so much divorce. Like this is all within the sermon.
Of course, within all of this, we have the everlasting
sin of impurity. Because you got to add that in
there somewhere. So in a medium dot com post, Dan
Foster writes, quote, according to Rigney, compassion is good because
it allows you to care while maintaining control. Empathy, however,
(27:47):
is dangerous because it involves stepping into another person's experience
so deeply that you risk losing perspective. But this isn't
just about perspective, It's about purity. Under Ringney's logic, the
real danger of EmPATH the isn't just that it clouds judgment.
It's that it might lead us to feel too much
for the wrong people. That if we sit too long
(28:07):
with the grieving, the suffering, the broken, we might start
to understand them, And if we understand them, we might
start to care about their pain in a way that
disrupts our theology. That's the fear. So this whole level
which is coming out in force, is again mainly due
to the whole lack of asking for empathy from an
(28:29):
administration that has none asking for mercy. There's a lot happening,
and the underlying reasons are different for different people. But
as we continue to talk about how Christian nationalism has
come into power, we have to understand some of their
tactics and how dangerous their rhetoric is. The loss of
empathy means a loss of humanity. Again, it's very obvious
(28:51):
by the many articles and please from the other Christians
about how dangerous and wrong this narrative is. That many
Christians do not believe in this idea, but many are
ignoring it for the sake of unity or just the
sake of being comfortable. And that is so dangerous, not
holding your own people, their own people to a standard
(29:12):
and calling out what they see is wrong. And that
is a problem. And I say this as I have
a whole family who I am scared of losing my
family with this type of rhetoric. And the minute they
speak this rhetic to me, I know it'll be over
like that. It's going to end so many things. That
means I've lost my second family literally like my biological
(29:34):
family and my adoptive family. But it has to be
at the very least they need to understand how uncomfortable
this is. That they need to see how oddly like
they went from people who my mother is the queen
of empathy to the reason why I was adopted in
the first place. Can't understand how this is so damaging
(29:59):
just because she just ignores it and says things like
they don't really mean that. M hm, that's not what
they really mean. Yeah, and for the same people who
sit here and going, yeah, but I'm fysically conservative, that's conservative.
That's why I voted that way. M h and not
get I know our listeners you probably are like, no,
I'm with you, I'm with you, But I think it's
(30:20):
something to know that we have to know exactly what
is being said, yeah, and why it's dangerous. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
I mean again, especially given where our politics are, we
have to pay attention to a lot of really terrible
stuff unfortunately. But yes, whoa listeners. If you have any
thoughts about this, please let us know. You can email
(30:46):
us at Hello at stuff Whenever Told You dot com.
You can find us on thu ski at mom Stuff
podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff When Never
Told You. We're on YouTube, we have a tea public store,
and we have a book you can get wherever you
get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,
executive Bruce and Maya, and a contributor Joey. Thank you
and thanks to you for listening Stuff Never told you
protection of my heart Radio. For more podcasts from my
(31:06):
Heart Radio, you can check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
Popular Podcasts
Math & Magic: Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing with Bob Pittman
How do the smartest marketers and business entrepreneurs cut through the noise? And how do they manage to do it again and again? It's a combination of math—the strategy and analytics—and magic, the creative spark. Join iHeartMedia Chairman and CEO Bob Pittman as he analyzes the Math and Magic of marketing—sitting down with today's most gifted disruptors and compelling storytellers.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!