November 7, 2025 • 48 mins
The power of SMNTY compels you! The genre of religious horror has had a huge impact on not only film, but beliefs, especially around women. We shine a light on some of the big tropes.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I hope some stuff
I've never told you Protective, iHeartRadio, and welcome. As we
record this, it is November, November twenty twenty five. We
(00:26):
are outside of Halloween and spooky times. But if you've
been listening, you know that we've had a lot of delays,
sits as Samantha has been ill. Feeling better though, yes.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I am feeling much much better.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yes, yeah, So this was originally planned for October. But
as we always say, we love horror. We love to
talk about horror all the time, and we love to
talk about religion all the time.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Honestly, so I mean, if you're from the US, with
the card state of things, you can't not talk about it.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
It's true. I didn't even get into Honestly, I think
we believe this will be a two parter. Sometimes it's
hard to tell at the beginning, but I'm pretty sure
I didn't even get into the much of the political
horror part of this conversation, which there are political horror
movies about this kind of stuff. Yes, yes, but today
(01:24):
we are talking about religious horror. As we've teased, we've
been mentioning that we were going to get into and yeah,
we have talked about this a lot in various ways,
so you can see our religious trauma episodes. I would
say The Witch, the movie The Craft, maybe Women in Colts,
(01:46):
which was a two parter, Alien which was our first
feminist movie, Friday No, I love It, Jennifer's Body, Mexican Gothic,
Final Girl, an episode about what girls are, Witch Poyitation,
the episode why Didn't You Believe Her? Black Christmas A
Quiet Place, and Blair Witch, the Blair Witch Project. Those
(02:11):
are just some We have touched on this a lot.
It's just a huge genre. And also none of the
things we're going to talk about are sponsors, and there
are going to be some spoilers. We're basically having a
conversation about some big themes we see in these religious
horror movies. Largely movies, but it is. I was reading
(02:34):
about religious horror and comics and apparently that's a huge thing,
religious horror and games. You've heard me talk about Silent
Hill f recently, which.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I guess we had that graphic novel well, the cultish twist.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, down Low, Yeah, that was real dark. I loved
it though, but it was obviously.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Sick when they like it's very religious. It's kind of
like almost to that level of like we may eventually
talk about the Masons, but like kind of in that
conversation of like mel dominated cults. Yeah, yeah, it happens
with that, Yes, And that.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Was part of the issue of making this wrangling this
into an episode, was you know, you can it was
just hard, mean a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
But yeah, yeah, but talking thinking about like graphic novels
and like comics and I'm like, yeah, oh yeah, that
was We've had a few we have.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
And I would actually like to you know, Unfortunately, Samantha,
I'm afraid this might become a bit of a series
because we are largely.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Mine.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, this doesn't because I did find a lot of
great resources about comics and video games in this arena
that I didn't have time to get into because there's
already plenty with just movies. Yeah, and today we are
primarily focusing on Western Christian religious horror. We do have
(04:12):
a few other examples, but I would love to explore, uh,
not that, because I think there are a lot of
examples of not that, and I would just need to
give them more time. But because this is something this
is a genre I'm very familiar with I think you're
very familiar with Sama.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, this is probably the one that I would lean
towards as a preference. And maybe this has everything to
do with my psyche and like unlearning slash stepping away
from Christianity and especially Western Christianity in general, coming from
an Appalachian town.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yes, yeah, but okay, before we get into the conversation,
I want to ask you, because I feel like we
both do like this genre, why do you think you
like it? Even though I feel neither of us are
very religious?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Right again, there's something okay, I think this is far
enough removed from me, as in like when I see
murder and slashers and men coming like those kind of depictions,
it kind of feels too heavy. I don't know if
that's my own trauma whatever coming into religion and understanding
(05:22):
religion as I do, as well as the fact that I,
I mean, like I do believe there are bad vibes
I'll say it that way in many realms, but at
the same time, like me being a little more agnostic
(05:46):
more than anything else, feels like it's a little bit
more removed, But at the same time it feels also explanatory,
Like there's sometimes like it feels a little more explanatory,
and most of the time I feel like these movies
don't as so I have a happy ending, but they
have a conclusion that makes sense. Yeah, so maybe that's
(06:07):
what I mean. Like there's so many reasons I might
just like, again, the fantasy level of what it is
has just enough jump scares to get me there, as
in like the fear level. But also again like I
don't know much about like a lot of them are
Catholic revolving for some odd reason. Yeah, I thought I was, like,
we didn't talk about talk to Catholics about this level,
(06:30):
especially when it comes like possession and such. So seeing
like that kind of feels removed maybe fictional enough for
me because I don't know a lot about Catholicism. Maybe
what about you.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yeah, I I think that a lot of it, And
we're going to talk about this and I have talked
about it before on the show.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
But I was I did truly used to be afraid
of hell, Like I was very very scared. My mom
wouldn't let me have the Exorcist in the house, Like,
would not let me have it in the house, and
so it felt very real to me. But after I
sort of moved on and became more atheistic, I just
(07:19):
it's like I recognize those signs. I recognize, like, even
if I don't necessarily believe it, I know what this
like holding up the cross is supposed to mean. I
know what saying this thing is supposed to be, and
I recognize the music of it. And I do think
a lot of elements of this, it is usually Catholic
(07:42):
faith that we're talking about, are very fear based, so
it makes sense to me. It makes sense, but it
does also feel and this has been purposeful, which we're
going to get into, but it feels very good versus evil.
Here's how you triumph over the evil or maybe you don't,
(08:02):
but here's how you could.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, these are the obvious bad guys. Although I think
like a lot of the newer movies have started to
like cross the boundaries. Were we the bad guys? No?
You made us the bad guys?
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yes, absolutely absolutely, But there's I mean, I'll admit it,
like sometimes I just want to like, there's your good guy.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
They won.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
That's nice, right, And I.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Shouldn't be based on real stories because you figured it
out that the real people are not great. Yes, the
heroes are not great.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, so you're also going to get into for sure.
And so I also wanted to answer before we get
into this, why does this topic impact women marginalized people?
There are a lot of reasons why, uh it is
once we get into the sections on who gets possessed
(08:52):
and why, who has the power to help people? And
why are who are the villains and why? There are
a lot of things that honestly, you could find so
much writing about this is not just us saying it's you,
but in this media, there are a lot of like
(09:15):
especially in this case, what we're going to be talking about.
You know, women, they're starting to feel sexual, right, that's
bad news.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Women are trying to be independent. How dare you?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
How dare you? You don't believe in Jesus any other religion?
Oh no, you're not good?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Right? Or women were the problem to begin with, so
you know cursed? Yep.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, So there are a lot of themes here that
I think I make it perfectly appropriate for us to
talk about on this show about that intersectional feminism. All right,
So when we're saying religious horror, it is a pretty
broad subject. But also in this case we are narrowing
(10:07):
in on something moral less specific as discussed previously. Yeah,
a lot of Western Christianity is scary. I've said before.
I had a conversation with my D and D crew
where every single one of us, one of us not
being Christian, was like, I grew up afraid of this.
I grew up afraid of hell. If I did something bad,
(10:29):
this is where I would go. Even if I didn't
really believe it. There was a part of me that
couldn't let it go. I would lie awake at night
thinking about it. And horror movies are meant to quote,
scare the hell out of you, usually by imparting some
kind of moral lesson, which is pretty much what a
(10:51):
lot of religion is. You do this, you get punished
for it. A lot of them. A lot of these
movies you recognizable iconography and esthetics, so we kind of
recognize it. Oh, here's that church, here's how it looks.
So it's one of those, in a strange way, almost
comforting things because you're like, ah, I know this setting,
(11:15):
especially if you like the genre or something like that,
if that's something you're into. It also is a genre
that asks questions about death, and what happens after death,
if anything, which is something a lot of religions are
concerned with. Many of these films come with the message
that if you are faithful, if you believe again in Jesus.
(11:36):
Usually other religions are often painted as other and therefore
wrong or evil, you will be safe. Though that changes
based on the religion slash belief, and has been yes
changing in recent years. You've seen some new things in
recent years. This is a really enduring subset of the
horror genre. Many lists of Scariest Movies Ever made have
(11:58):
quite a handful of these religious horror type of movies
on there, and many of them, like The Extorcist, influence
films and other media that came after it, so they
had this huge impact. Here's a quote from Timothy Beale's
article The Horror, Religion and the Monstrous on film over
at the Berkeley Center for Religion, Peace and World Affairs
(12:21):
at Georgetown, which is famously where The Extorcists was filmed. Quote.
Horror films often serve as mythic battles of blessed order
against diabolical chaos. Most often these forces of chaos are
personified in terms of racial, ethnic, sexual and religious otherness
(12:42):
projected as monstrous threats to r familiar sense of order.
In the course of the film, viewers re enact the myth,
facing our monsters which seem to be winning for a
horrifically long time, and ultimately defeating them. In the process,
we are ritually purging ourselves of otherness, re establishing and
(13:02):
blessing the established social order eg. White Christian American patriarchal heteronormativity.
Such films put a face on otherwise vague, uneasiness and
unnamable insecurities to slay them and to send them back
to Hell where they belong, returning as to a sense
of security and safety. And the interesting thing about this is,
(13:25):
I've thought about this along for a long time when
it reminds me of Charmed. When I used to watch
Charmed or Buffy, like any show like that, there was
a like when you would kill the demon, they would
go up and ash, they would go back to Hell
or whatever. But it was so clearly like supernatural. It
(13:45):
was super It didn't kill well, yeah, supernatural, but it
didn't kill them necessarily. It sent them back where they belonged,
so it didn't feel as like superhero movies. Do that too,
where it's like if they're robot villains, they're not human villains,
you know what I mean, So you don't have to
feel bad about them killing sending back this demon. And
(14:10):
I do think going back to that, you know, just
a nice good versus evil that fits into that nicely
of Okay, well I just sent them back where they belong.
I haven't done any ofthing. I haven't killed anybody. Yeah,
(14:31):
but this was uh so, this was actually a whole
series of articles that came out about this, and I
recommend them because they delve into a bunch of the
different They tackle a bunch of the different angles of
this topic. And they talked about how all of these
(14:53):
religious scholarly themes about having chaos and then having the
order that religion brings in. And that's sort of what
some of these movies are doing, where it's it's chaotic,
but here it comes your religion and now you have
some kind of control or something. Yes, all right, so
(15:27):
let us get started with the themes, some of the
big themes. All right, let's start with reproductive rights and
pregnancy and abortion. Yeah, let's go. So I've noticed a
lot of these right now, this is so big right now.
There's no doubt in my mind it's because of the
(15:48):
overturning of v. Wade and a continual assault on reproductive rights.
So the six justices who overturned Roe v. Wade are Catholic,
and the majority opinion included a seventeenth century quote from
a judge who hung women for witchcraft. So yeah, that
(16:09):
has been a thing that is happening in religious horror
right now. It's not necessarily new, it's just that there's
a lot of it. So examples I can think of Immaculate,
the first omen Rosemary's Baby, which first came out during
the anxiety around women's rights in the late sixties, Alien,
(16:32):
which first came out during the second wave of feminism,
also when a lot of slashers punishing sexually liberated women
started coming out. So Alien, I'll get into this more
in a second. If you're like, that's not a religious
movie in later ones, yes it is, It actually is.
But also also I think you can kind of expand
(16:54):
some of these themes outside of a strictly religious movie,
because it's one of those things you can't take out
of a culture that is raised in it, steeped in it,
it's very hard for us as the audience to not
see a movie like this and think about abortion and
(17:16):
how religion in our country in the US impacts abortion.
So that is the reason I included it. Also, I
love talking about Alien you all know it, but I
did think, you know, when it comes to these types
of movies. I've watched The Omen when I was way
(17:40):
to young, the original, and I just remember thinking, like
I wish they had killed the baby, and I felt
horrible for it. But it's the anti crisis, like the
Bad Seed. It's the opposite of what you're supposed to
feel with the Virgin Mary and Jesus. And the horror
(18:02):
of it in quotes is that the woman in this
usually in this case, in this trope, is like, I
can't kill the baby because I saw it as the baby.
I just can't do it. I have my maternal instincts
refuse to allow me to do it.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Like some many of them are like, and they eat
the mother or they eat away. Yeah, and for the
sake of but they can't say no because that's their child.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah yeah, I mean it's it's miserable. Like don't get
me wrong, I'm not like I can't wait to see
the death of this child, right, But but it is
I likes Auntie crist and you built it up to me, right,
this horrific child that has killed all these people.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Right, Like, But that's kind of interesting because a lot
of them and maybe it's kind of like the Left
Behind series in my head, I know that's just like
this correlation. But in this mind that they that the
people who think they're right are creating this and like
we're saving these things, but these things in the you know,
are the ones that ends them.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
It's like they like they believe that they're going to
be saved by this white man and accordant left behind
is the white man that's the anti Christ, you know,
like yeah, which I'm like, you might not be so
wrong about that one, you know where you go. But
also in that same level of like these are the
children and what is that you know that that quote
what if you this is the one that can kill cancer?
You know that? Have you heard that line? I love it?
(19:35):
But in the end, they're actually the ones that bring
about the death and apocalypse of everything.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, And I mean it is a lot of these
things we're going to talk about. I get why they're
so effective and horrific, like that is a.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Horrible It is interesting again with this really trauma because
you talk you specifically talk about the anti Christ, the
bad seed, being like orphans because they know that they
cannot not have the space. But this baby's gonna be bad,
so they go ahead and give it away and put
it in an orphanage, and they steal into being the
bad guy, the villain. H even Harry Potter had that
(20:10):
kind of ideal in that like Tom whatever his name is,
Riddle was was the orphan because he was not good enough,
but he was also evil, that's true, and he grew
into being more evil and the one who ended it all.
I did find an interesting article because in general, adoption
is the idea of outcast orphan. You know, that conversation
of being othered, the jokes that siblings play on each other, like,
(20:32):
oh you were adopted, just to make sure you you know,
Like that's the zinger. I did find an article on
Charizon dot com where they talk about the newest movie
which I haven't seen this movie yet and I don't
think it's religious horror again, you tell me bring her back.
Have you seen this movie yet?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yes, I have.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Okay, is it really horror?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I guess you could make that argument. It is a
brutal movie, though, that okay messed me up.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
All Right, I'm not gonna watch it. And either you
said this because I did think about it because of
the picture for the icon for it, I'm like, oh interesting,
but anyway, but this is like they are talking about
this movie and Mariam Balinesco, I'm sorry if I said
your name, but she talks about the idea of orphans again,
like how this is coming back round, which I feel
like they've never gone away, but you know that could
(21:19):
be me. And she does say this specifically in relations
to orphans and the kind of like cults in religion,
films like The Omen in nineteen seventy six, which were
there's so many films with orphans and religion and again
the anti Christ, the Christ, the Savior, the not Savior,
whatever has happening, or the reason that the mothers went crazy,
(21:39):
which is a whole different another thing. Yeah, films like
The Omen nineteen seventy six whip up fears that there's
something inanely wicked about taking in a child that isn't yours.
That movie's five year old infant interloper is able to
derail not only the conservative American family, but destroy the
pillars of US politics, which we're not talking about, but
I think again we probably should. In the full corp
(22:01):
Children of the corn An entire society of scythe wielding
orphans run amook, guided only by pagan ritual. Meanwhile, the
eerie orphan setting has spawned a horror subgenre all of
its own, but it does kind of bring back that
conversation of like, what are these things they are disrupting?
The perfect family? The orphan The actual movie talks about this.
(22:23):
Also the woman ends up being a woman spoiler. I
don't know if you haven't seen, because I think there's
like four more since then. Yeah, they actually did an
SVU episode kind of like it, but not horror level.
But anyway, all these things in this conversation of like
what is the bad Sea the Antichrist again that is
(22:46):
disrupting what is wholesome and pure, even though the reason
they exist is everything to do with the reproductive laws
that they have put into place again and since then
is an interesting back and forth in this conversation because adoption,
which is the easy throwout for pro lifers slash pro birthers,
(23:09):
but at the same time they also think that's not
somewhat evil and that these children are not pure.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yes, yes, And I also uh wanted to mention this
because of what I read about the First Omen, which
has been a long time since I've seen that one,
but not the first because that actually is a movie.
I'm going to talk about the first actual OMEN the
original referenced. Yes, yes, but also in the conversations we've
(23:42):
had about how conservatives try to use that as like
adoption and abortion in their argument, and that I think
that's why it is relevant in this conversation about religious horror,
because when we watch the movies, you see that playing
out in our politics and in our religion, those kind
(24:06):
of fears and ideas that get perpetuated. So yeah, that's
it's interesting and upsetting that that has had such a
lasting effect. And I remember I used to work on
the show's stuff to blow your mind. I've never seen
there's actually a movie called The Bad Seed, and they
(24:28):
did a whole episode on it, and I remember what
they talked about it. I've never seen it, but I
it was it was upsetting, Like I remember thinking like, oh,
my God. There's also something to be said about the
scary child who just right, children have been made into
we're afraid of kids. I think that's we can say
(24:51):
this in horror movies.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
So the article going back to it, they literally say,
so bring her back is far more realistic in the
litany of portrayals of orphans and horror that have proceeded,
where a child's worst side is often explained away by
the occult or possession by the devil. So reason like, literally,
there's no other explanation for a bad kid who are
typically orphans other than they're the devil and they're possessed right.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Well, and that's that's another topic we're going to get
into later. But that movie also deals with grieving mother,
the greeving mother trop.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yes it does, and the bad father apparently the absent father,
which yeah, we're going to talk about a little bit too.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So yep, so much to discuss. Okay, So I again
going back to Alien. As I said, there are a
lot of very weird religious elements in newer alien movies.
Usually it's a man, a very rich man, who might
(25:55):
remind you of a certain other man that exists actual
who thinks that he understands religion better than anyone. He
understands where the meaning of life and where it came
from and all of this stuff. And I have a
lot of surprise to no one. I have a lot
(26:15):
of thoughts about Alien. I some of the movies I
wouldn't say are good, but I do think they all
have something interesting to say. I think they all have
something interesting to say. There is a pretty graphic, what
I would consider abortion scene in one of them, and Prometheus,
(26:36):
which is probably the most religious one. And so if
you don't remember, if you didn't listen to that episode
when we first talked about Alien, but there's a lot
of When it first came out, it was very It
disturbed a lot of people for a lot of reasons,
but it brought up these conversations about male rape and
(27:01):
the horror of having to give birth. A lot of
people have rightfully pointed out, like, it's interesting that we
focus on the male part of it because women just
gonna have to deal with it, right exactly, But it was,
it was very horrific, and it was a child, a
(27:23):
thing inside you you didn't want, you never asked for,
and had to carry to birth and would kill you
likely would kill you. And so in the recent alien
movie Alien Bromulus.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Spoilers, Yeah, I haven't watched it.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Isabella Marsad's character does. She's pregnant, but then she gets
like also alien pregnant, so she gives birth to like
a human alien highpers superchild. Okay, and that kills her.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Obviously.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah, but a lot of people brought I was kind
of surprised how many people brought it up. And when
I was researching, you know, what's up with all the
reproductive rights horror movies, and it came up. But she,
I mean, it was also a thing where like maybe
she had she wanted that child, but then it became
deadly to her and she couldn't there's nothing she could
(28:25):
do when she just died.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
So many of that quip like and so many like
Supernatural has that with the Antichrist. Yeah, also, yeah, a
lot of like you have to die, the sacrifice is
obviously going to be you and and we're all going
to celebrate this, which again.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Choices Well, interesting that you say that. Okay, this is
this is a new thing. I did not know about
this whole thing. This is why I bought a quiet
place up in past episodes you should re listen to
or listen to all right. So apparently when A Quiet
Place came out, there was a big conservative anti choice
(29:09):
movement saying it was, in their words, pro life. Because
if you haven't seen that movie, spoilers can. Emily Blunt's
character gives birth to a baby in it and she
has to be silent because that's the whole plot of
the movie. And so you know they're saying these quote
pro lifers are saying the kid was born, so God
(29:32):
was looking out for them. That must be it. When
if you think about it, they another kid died, another
kid died, and they also the family didn't have safe
access to abortion. They really didn't have a choice.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
They didn't have a choice.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Also, they kind of like, I don't know what they
did in previous life, it probably says in one of
the other movies, but they clearly knew what was up,
like they had they I knew how to make that
like case with the oxygen in it for the baby,
so they wouldn't hit like they were clearly well off.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
They also had to sacrifice a father.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Like yes, and the conservative people were like, this is
it everybody.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I mean, that would be the epitome of pro birth. Literally,
another child died and the person died.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, but they were all into it. I had
no idea. So here's a quote from this website Desiring
God about the whole thing. Horror films taking place in
abortion clinics across the US and around the world, Silent
assassinations and stale rooms. They wear white coats, They make
death a business. They snatched children from deceived mothers who
(30:47):
tragically pay to have them taken away. We live in
a society full of this movie's monsters, and they seem
so ordinary against all the loud, pink pro choice banners
around us. A quiet place stands for human lives worth
sacrificing for pink.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Why don't they like pink? That's been that of random.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Well, I'm assuming this came out maybe around I don't
remember when this movie came out. Maybe it was around
the twenty sixty election.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
But was it because they were the pink hats or something?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
That's I mean, that's my first thought, But I don't know.
It could just be women like pink and we hate women.
It could be gendered.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's also gendered like yeah, dack on color.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, and we're We're gonna get into this later, probably
in part two, but I find it very fascinating the
gall to be like the horror that's happening in these
abortion centers, when they have crisis pregnancy centers that are
literally playing horror movies and deceiving people.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Right, deceiving well those I love that. This whole thing
sounds like the beginning of when we were talking about
those horror haunted houses or those horror houses scare houses
that were literally about going to hell, that they were
going to get together. That's what it sounds like. But
that's exactly had like someone just this is the descriptor
(32:11):
they had for their abortion clinic, quote unquote scary house
before going to hell.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Oh yeah. And I have to say, like I watching
that movie, which I did enjoy, I never would have thought.
The only thing I thought was they have to survive.
There was no part of me that was like is
this All I felt was like, I'm glad she didn't die.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
If right, I'm like, oh that's not good. That's she's right.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
It is a scary thing, exactly exactly. Well, apparently that's
not what a lot of other conservatives thought. And I
just want to shout out thanks to Sarah Lynn Missioners. Missioners.
I hope I'm pronouncing that closer correctly. Article on Medium,
the irony that conservatives think a horror film was pro
(33:02):
life reminds us how little they value life for this,
because that's I got the quote. I didn't have to
go to this website. I got the quote from there.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Oh. I was like, as you're oh, you got lucky.
I was thinking, you're about to get all the bad
man no sacrifice search engine.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
My algorithm not yet, not for this. It. That article
is great. I recommend it. It is full of righteous matriol,
and I love it.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Very angry.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah, a very very good.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Another thing I wanted to talk about in here that
I see cheme up a lot in these types of
movies is kind of the whole not having sex thing
or being married to Jesus, which I guess we should
have also brought up the virgin d episodes. Can listen
to those as well.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Interestingly, for some reason, when I was trying to look
up about like single mothers and abortion or like orphans,
it really wanted to talk about nuns. The nuns either
being the protagonist or the antagonists.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, nuns do come up a lot in this. I
feel like we're just giving you a bunch of teasers,
but we are going to talk about that as well.
But yeah, I mean, we have discussed the trope, the
very powerful belief in these movies and amongst people who
are religious, but in the power of virgins, or the
(34:41):
power of the uncorrupted and the power of corrupting them
in the case of evil. So evil. Yes. So here's
a quote about the First Omen from Dread Central from
the article The First Omen the Perfect Religion Horror Movie
by Mary Beth McAndrews. This is especially true in Stevenson's
(35:06):
direct and unabashed betrayal of sexual assault at the hands
of men and encouraged by other women. Importantly, assault here
isn't framed as titillating or as a spectacle, but rather
as violence that destroys the person mentally, emotionally, and physically.
One such scene is Luzz's vow ceremony, where she takes
the veil in a gorgeous wedding dress symbolizing her wedding
(35:28):
to Christ, but as other nuns tie on her wimple,
Stevenson frames the ceremony as a form of sexual violence
rather than a moment of joy, Loz whimpers and pain
as the strings Titan and she lies prostrate on the floor.
So often religious horror wants to examine the male psyche
and faith with women simply fodder for the devil that
(35:48):
need to be saved by the strong man of God.
And yeah, so this whole article was about the author
talks about their own experience with religion and sexual assaults
and about water this movie where it does frame it
because again, like you know, we've been taught this generally,
(36:10):
women have been taught getting married great thing, wonderful thing.
And when you tie in religion to it, then you're
adding that sort of religious morality to it. Then when
you're tying in like I'm getting married to Jesus, then
it's a whole other level. But in this case, in
this movie, which was an American woman who went to
(36:33):
Italy for this and by the way, I've seen this movie.
I'm going to talk about it more in a second.
This was it was interesting because she really wanted this life,
and they were the ones that were like, let's lure
her out into the clubs, Like to the people at
the church, we're trying to let's get her impregnated. It's
(36:58):
very dark, very very dark. Here is a quote from
a Din of Geek article by David Crowe called Immaculate
the First Omen and the blessed rise of pro choice
horror movies. Thus, in a real subversion of the film's
religious horror roots, Margaret discovers her paternal church father secretly
(37:18):
raised her and nurtured her with the intention of always
seeing her impregnated by a familiar of the devil, a
demonic jackal who we learn was also Margaret's father. In
other words, because the film's church believes it will empower
their institution if the anti Christ appears and thereby cause
a secular world to return to Catholicism for salvation, they
(37:38):
forced Margaret to carry to term an unwanted child that
was created by both rape and incest. The church even
aids this defilement by drugging her like the witches in
Rosemary's Baby and offering her body up to violation by
a demon who is also her own father. Yeah, that's
a first Shoman. So they brought this up specifically because
(38:03):
the old conservative argument has so long been you know,
except for case of rape and incest, but this one
was like, no, even then, this church doesn't care. Nobody,
Actually you can this. Yeah, m I watched this movie
with my mom, I just want to say, and she was.
(38:29):
She would just ask me these random questions. But I
remember at one point she just said, suddenly, did that
man's head fall off?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
You know, there's moments when there's so many incredible, ridiculous
things happening that you just can't help but one part
of like, no, that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
I don't think if I asked her today, I doubt
she could remember anything about it except for that scene,
because it was just that's not her thing. Like I said,
she didn't like didn't let me have The Exorcist in
the house. She hated movie Constantine when I made her
take me to see it in theater.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Rule I kind of forget about that one.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, I love that movie. I didn't too, but she
did not like it. But she watched this for me
with me for whatever reason. Uh, she didn't complain about it.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
So there's an interesting thing with all of these religious
horror that it has everything to do with the apocalypse
or the rapture or any of those things happening, and
they want to instigate it. So many of the good
guys become villains because they're trying to instigate or punish
in the name of God by doing these things, which
(39:42):
is an interesting Constantine did the same thing Gabriel. Was
that the angel that she did? But like, it's like,
is it not the only one? There's so many in
this conversation that they would be deemed as the good
people causing the chaos again.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, yeah, and so Immaculate and the first Omen came
out at the same time, like very close together, and
they're similar in a lot of ways. I would say
the first Omen I preferred, but I like the ending
(40:20):
of Immaculate better.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
So it's the first omen in relation to the Omen. Yes,
because I've never seen this, but this plot line sounds
really familiar, I'll say.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Yeah, but it's it's hindered by the fact that it
is part of a forty year old franchise. I think so,
And it's a prequel, so she's given to the.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Date. Yes, because isn't there a movie called Damien in
that franchise as well?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I think so. It's a long running franchise and it
also has several spin offs and several comedy spin offs
as well, but I will say Immaculate did have the
kill the baby ending that I well, there's that. Yeah, yeah,
but they were they were very similar. And also both
(41:11):
of them did hammer on the point that it was
like mostly men in power, but women were also helping
perpetrate these things, so it was not just yeah baby
mm hm, yes, indeed, okay this but mother. Yes I
didn't even put mother in here, but yes, absolutely, I
(41:33):
have a quick Nosferatu aside the new one. I have
not seen it, okay, So I wanted to do a
whole episode on it because I had so many thoughts
when I watched it. We might still I don't know,
but I was so fascinated by it because on the
one hand, it had so many it's it's interesting when
you see a movie that has so many of these
(41:54):
ideas that like, she needs her husband, that's the problem,
and then you have like the Nosratu, which I've seen
the original it's been a minute, but there's this whole
idea of like that sexy virginal maiden. You have sex
with them, and then you're the only one that can
redeem them or the salvation that's the only thing. And
(42:18):
then the interesting thing is too if you haven't seen
Noseratu and you were very interested in because it's the
same as the prequel. So I feel like the spoiler's
part is kind of out the window because that movie's ancient.
But if you really want to let me spoil, then
just skip two minutes. But you know, she basically offers
up her body and they have sex until sunrise, and
(42:40):
he dies because he can't resist her because he's a
vampire and not Seratu.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
She kills.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
She kills someone sex, but she also dies. She also dies.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Well good, I guess.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
And so I got to the end of it and
I was like, is this a sex positive movie? Because
I'm trying to figure out the whole time, she's thinking
about this vampire who at a young age she felt
kind of some attraction too, not necessarily sexual, but she
felt some kind of attraction too, and she has all
(43:16):
these men in her life that are really controlling and
all this stuff, and she made the decision. But I mean,
but at the same time, like they had sex until
they both died.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
I don't know. So the way you're describing it just
sounds like it's just a horny movie. The people.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
I think I'm probably doing a bad job at describing it,
but that is ending. It's a long movie, man, though
there's a lot of other things that happened. So I
have another quote from that Berkeley Center Georgetown series, and
this is about the original. Some may read ellen sacrifice
(44:02):
through the lens of Christian models of devotion, paradigms often
specifically gendered and gory and sexualized representations of the suffering
of female saints and martyrs. However, it's notable that the
male figures we meet in the film are incredibly passive
victims of the vampire, or are simply ineffectual. Perhaps more interesting,
(44:22):
given the perennial patriarchal need to control female sexuality, Ellen
feels drawn to the vampire throughout the film. The narrative
allows a woman not only to show desire, but also
to direct it toward an image of alterity, the inhuman
face and form of Noceratu. So I guess you know what.
(44:43):
You can also listen to our episode on women art Monsters.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Uh yeah, I always like to call That's what I
come back to.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Nosratu is such a doo soo. Anyway, I would love
to come back and talk about it. I wrote like
a whole outlined. Before I'd even asked about that, I
was like, no, I got some thoughts about this.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Is this an essay that you're going to put into
as an outline?
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Maybe recently, when Joey was on the show and we
talked about New York Comic Con afterwards, they were like,
you should publish these essays, and I said, I don't
who wants these essays. I think they're just for me.
I don't think they're for anybody else. But if we
do an episode, I'm.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Ready, that's going to be the essay. Let's go.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Mm hmm. I do want to say there are also
actual horror movies that are very much in the vein
of like, you know, you're bad Christian horror movies that
do depict women who have had abortions going to home.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
That is the same ones that sexualize women to the
point of like, oh, all they care about is.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Yes, exactly. So that does exist. I honestly don't really
want to give any more. I don't want to shout
any title, shout out any titles or anything, but that
is a thing that exists. I would say it's probably
pretty similar to what you might see in a Crisis
Pregnancy Center. And lastly, before we close out on this
(46:22):
part one of our religious horror study, we did mention
recently we've been talking about marriage horror. You can see
our episodes on Silent Hill f for that, which isn't
really religious, but it's I feel like when I personally
think of marriage, at least for a long time, I've
(46:43):
associated it with religion here in the US, So for me,
a lot of marriage horror does feel slightly religious. Examples,
I could think of Ready or Not as a kind
of satanic cult religious aspect to it, where they're you
(47:04):
might have to sacrifice this bride depending on what happens
with the game that we're playing Midsommar. They're not married necessarily.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But I think something about relationship.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Bad relationship, and kind of a cult thing going on,
So I could I see that in religious horror, and
then loss of a partner in general leading to some
kind of possession or hunting. I think that's a big,
a big trope, and I've actually been reading about it recently,
(47:38):
and I wanted to do another episode on mental health
and horror, but it just it's spiraled out of control,
so I couldn't couldn't do it for now, but you know,
that's sort of like the grief aspect, which is something
we're going to pick up on in part two. But
(48:00):
I think we should. We should probably call it for now, Okay, yes,
because we do have a lot more to get into
and listeners. If you have any anything you would like
for us to talk about, our examples you want to
shout out, please let us know. You can email us
at Hello at stuff Iever Told You dot com. You
(48:21):
can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff Podcasts,
or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've Never Told You.
You can also find us on YouTube. We have a
new merchandise a cop bureau, and we have a book
you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as
always too, our super producer Christina, our executive prdu of
my and a contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to
you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You prediction of
My Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
you can check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast
(48:42):
or if you listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I hope some stuff
I've never told you Protective, iHeartRadio, and welcome. As we
record this, it is November, November twenty twenty five. We
(00:26):
are outside of Halloween and spooky times. But if you've
been listening, you know that we've had a lot of delays,
sits as Samantha has been ill. Feeling better though, yes.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I am feeling much much better.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yes, yeah, So this was originally planned for October. But
as we always say, we love horror. We love to
talk about horror all the time, and we love to
talk about religion all the time.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Honestly, so I mean, if you're from the US, with
the card state of things, you can't not talk about it.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
It's true. I didn't even get into Honestly, I think
we believe this will be a two parter. Sometimes it's
hard to tell at the beginning, but I'm pretty sure
I didn't even get into the much of the political
horror part of this conversation, which there are political horror
movies about this kind of stuff. Yes, yes, but today
(01:24):
we are talking about religious horror. As we've teased, we've
been mentioning that we were going to get into and yeah,
we have talked about this a lot in various ways,
so you can see our religious trauma episodes. I would
say The Witch, the movie The Craft, maybe Women in Colts,
(01:46):
which was a two parter, Alien which was our first
feminist movie, Friday No, I love It, Jennifer's Body, Mexican Gothic,
Final Girl, an episode about what girls are, Witch Poyitation,
the episode why Didn't You Believe Her? Black Christmas A
Quiet Place, and Blair Witch, the Blair Witch Project. Those
(02:11):
are just some We have touched on this a lot.
It's just a huge genre. And also none of the
things we're going to talk about are sponsors, and there
are going to be some spoilers. We're basically having a
conversation about some big themes we see in these religious
horror movies. Largely movies, but it is. I was reading
(02:34):
about religious horror and comics and apparently that's a huge thing,
religious horror and games. You've heard me talk about Silent
Hill f recently, which.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I guess we had that graphic novel well, the cultish twist.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, down Low, Yeah, that was real dark. I loved
it though, but it was obviously.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Sick when they like it's very religious. It's kind of
like almost to that level of like we may eventually
talk about the Masons, but like kind of in that
conversation of like mel dominated cults. Yeah, yeah, it happens
with that, Yes, And that.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Was part of the issue of making this wrangling this
into an episode, was you know, you can it was
just hard, mean a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
But yeah, yeah, but talking thinking about like graphic novels
and like comics and I'm like, yeah, oh yeah, that
was We've had a few we have.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
And I would actually like to you know, Unfortunately, Samantha,
I'm afraid this might become a bit of a series
because we are largely.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Mine.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, this doesn't because I did find a lot of
great resources about comics and video games in this arena
that I didn't have time to get into because there's
already plenty with just movies. Yeah, and today we are
primarily focusing on Western Christian religious horror. We do have
(04:12):
a few other examples, but I would love to explore, uh,
not that, because I think there are a lot of
examples of not that, and I would just need to
give them more time. But because this is something this
is a genre I'm very familiar with I think you're
very familiar with Sama.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, this is probably the one that I would lean
towards as a preference. And maybe this has everything to
do with my psyche and like unlearning slash stepping away
from Christianity and especially Western Christianity in general, coming from
an Appalachian town.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yes, yeah, but okay, before we get into the conversation,
I want to ask you, because I feel like we
both do like this genre, why do you think you
like it? Even though I feel neither of us are
very religious?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Right again, there's something okay, I think this is far
enough removed from me, as in like when I see
murder and slashers and men coming like those kind of depictions,
it kind of feels too heavy. I don't know if
that's my own trauma whatever coming into religion and understanding
(05:22):
religion as I do, as well as the fact that I,
I mean, like I do believe there are bad vibes
I'll say it that way in many realms, but at
the same time, like me being a little more agnostic
(05:46):
more than anything else, feels like it's a little bit
more removed, But at the same time it feels also explanatory,
Like there's sometimes like it feels a little more explanatory,
and most of the time I feel like these movies
don't as so I have a happy ending, but they
have a conclusion that makes sense. Yeah, so maybe that's
(06:07):
what I mean. Like there's so many reasons I might
just like, again, the fantasy level of what it is
has just enough jump scares to get me there, as
in like the fear level. But also again like I
don't know much about like a lot of them are
Catholic revolving for some odd reason. Yeah, I thought I was, like,
we didn't talk about talk to Catholics about this level,
(06:30):
especially when it comes like possession and such. So seeing
like that kind of feels removed maybe fictional enough for
me because I don't know a lot about Catholicism. Maybe
what about you.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yeah, I I think that a lot of it, And
we're going to talk about this and I have talked
about it before on the show.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
But I was I did truly used to be afraid
of hell, Like I was very very scared. My mom
wouldn't let me have the Exorcist in the house, Like,
would not let me have it in the house, and
so it felt very real to me. But after I
sort of moved on and became more atheistic, I just
(07:19):
it's like I recognize those signs. I recognize, like, even
if I don't necessarily believe it, I know what this
like holding up the cross is supposed to mean. I
know what saying this thing is supposed to be, and
I recognize the music of it. And I do think
a lot of elements of this, it is usually Catholic
(07:42):
faith that we're talking about, are very fear based, so
it makes sense to me. It makes sense, but it
does also feel and this has been purposeful, which we're
going to get into, but it feels very good versus evil.
Here's how you triumph over the evil or maybe you don't,
(08:02):
but here's how you could.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, these are the obvious bad guys. Although I think
like a lot of the newer movies have started to
like cross the boundaries. Were we the bad guys? No?
You made us the bad guys?
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yes, absolutely absolutely, But there's I mean, I'll admit it,
like sometimes I just want to like, there's your good guy.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
They won.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
That's nice, right, And I.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Shouldn't be based on real stories because you figured it
out that the real people are not great. Yes, the
heroes are not great.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, so you're also going to get into for sure.
And so I also wanted to answer before we get
into this, why does this topic impact women marginalized people?
There are a lot of reasons why, uh it is
once we get into the sections on who gets possessed
(08:52):
and why, who has the power to help people? And
why are who are the villains and why? There are
a lot of things that honestly, you could find so
much writing about this is not just us saying it's you,
but in this media, there are a lot of like
(09:15):
especially in this case, what we're going to be talking about.
You know, women, they're starting to feel sexual, right, that's
bad news.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Women are trying to be independent. How dare you?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
How dare you? You don't believe in Jesus any other religion?
Oh no, you're not good?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Right? Or women were the problem to begin with, so
you know cursed? Yep.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, So there are a lot of themes here that
I think I make it perfectly appropriate for us to
talk about on this show about that intersectional feminism. All right,
So when we're saying religious horror, it is a pretty
broad subject. But also in this case we are narrowing
(10:07):
in on something moral less specific as discussed previously. Yeah,
a lot of Western Christianity is scary. I've said before.
I had a conversation with my D and D crew
where every single one of us, one of us not
being Christian, was like, I grew up afraid of this.
I grew up afraid of hell. If I did something bad,
(10:29):
this is where I would go. Even if I didn't
really believe it. There was a part of me that
couldn't let it go. I would lie awake at night
thinking about it. And horror movies are meant to quote,
scare the hell out of you, usually by imparting some
kind of moral lesson, which is pretty much what a
(10:51):
lot of religion is. You do this, you get punished
for it. A lot of them. A lot of these
movies you recognizable iconography and esthetics, so we kind of
recognize it. Oh, here's that church, here's how it looks.
So it's one of those, in a strange way, almost
comforting things because you're like, ah, I know this setting,
(11:15):
especially if you like the genre or something like that,
if that's something you're into. It also is a genre
that asks questions about death, and what happens after death,
if anything, which is something a lot of religions are
concerned with. Many of these films come with the message
that if you are faithful, if you believe again in Jesus.
(11:36):
Usually other religions are often painted as other and therefore
wrong or evil, you will be safe. Though that changes
based on the religion slash belief, and has been yes
changing in recent years. You've seen some new things in
recent years. This is a really enduring subset of the
horror genre. Many lists of Scariest Movies Ever made have
(11:58):
quite a handful of these religious horror type of movies
on there, and many of them, like The Extorcist, influence
films and other media that came after it, so they
had this huge impact. Here's a quote from Timothy Beale's
article The Horror, Religion and the Monstrous on film over
at the Berkeley Center for Religion, Peace and World Affairs
(12:21):
at Georgetown, which is famously where The Extorcists was filmed. Quote.
Horror films often serve as mythic battles of blessed order
against diabolical chaos. Most often these forces of chaos are
personified in terms of racial, ethnic, sexual and religious otherness
(12:42):
projected as monstrous threats to r familiar sense of order.
In the course of the film, viewers re enact the myth,
facing our monsters which seem to be winning for a
horrifically long time, and ultimately defeating them. In the process,
we are ritually purging ourselves of otherness, re establishing and
(13:02):
blessing the established social order eg. White Christian American patriarchal heteronormativity.
Such films put a face on otherwise vague, uneasiness and
unnamable insecurities to slay them and to send them back
to Hell where they belong, returning as to a sense
of security and safety. And the interesting thing about this is,
(13:25):
I've thought about this along for a long time when
it reminds me of Charmed. When I used to watch
Charmed or Buffy, like any show like that, there was
a like when you would kill the demon, they would
go up and ash, they would go back to Hell
or whatever. But it was so clearly like supernatural. It
(13:45):
was super It didn't kill well, yeah, supernatural, but it
didn't kill them necessarily. It sent them back where they belonged,
so it didn't feel as like superhero movies. Do that too,
where it's like if they're robot villains, they're not human villains,
you know what I mean, So you don't have to
feel bad about them killing sending back this demon. And
(14:10):
I do think going back to that, you know, just
a nice good versus evil that fits into that nicely
of Okay, well I just sent them back where they belong.
I haven't done any ofthing. I haven't killed anybody. Yeah,
(14:31):
but this was uh so, this was actually a whole
series of articles that came out about this, and I
recommend them because they delve into a bunch of the
different They tackle a bunch of the different angles of
this topic. And they talked about how all of these
(14:53):
religious scholarly themes about having chaos and then having the
order that religion brings in. And that's sort of what
some of these movies are doing, where it's it's chaotic,
but here it comes your religion and now you have
some kind of control or something. Yes, all right, so
(15:27):
let us get started with the themes, some of the
big themes. All right, let's start with reproductive rights and
pregnancy and abortion. Yeah, let's go. So I've noticed a
lot of these right now, this is so big right now.
There's no doubt in my mind it's because of the
(15:48):
overturning of v. Wade and a continual assault on reproductive rights.
So the six justices who overturned Roe v. Wade are Catholic,
and the majority opinion included a seventeenth century quote from
a judge who hung women for witchcraft. So yeah, that
(16:09):
has been a thing that is happening in religious horror
right now. It's not necessarily new, it's just that there's
a lot of it. So examples I can think of Immaculate,
the first omen Rosemary's Baby, which first came out during
the anxiety around women's rights in the late sixties, Alien,
(16:32):
which first came out during the second wave of feminism,
also when a lot of slashers punishing sexually liberated women
started coming out. So Alien, I'll get into this more
in a second. If you're like, that's not a religious
movie in later ones, yes it is, It actually is.
But also also I think you can kind of expand
(16:54):
some of these themes outside of a strictly religious movie,
because it's one of those things you can't take out
of a culture that is raised in it, steeped in it,
it's very hard for us as the audience to not
see a movie like this and think about abortion and
(17:16):
how religion in our country in the US impacts abortion.
So that is the reason I included it. Also, I
love talking about Alien you all know it, but I
did think, you know, when it comes to these types
of movies. I've watched The Omen when I was way
(17:40):
to young, the original, and I just remember thinking, like
I wish they had killed the baby, and I felt
horrible for it. But it's the anti crisis, like the
Bad Seed. It's the opposite of what you're supposed to
feel with the Virgin Mary and Jesus. And the horror
(18:02):
of it in quotes is that the woman in this
usually in this case, in this trope, is like, I
can't kill the baby because I saw it as the baby.
I just can't do it. I have my maternal instincts
refuse to allow me to do it.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Like some many of them are like, and they eat
the mother or they eat away. Yeah, and for the
sake of but they can't say no because that's their child.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah yeah, I mean it's it's miserable. Like don't get
me wrong, I'm not like I can't wait to see
the death of this child, right, But but it is
I likes Auntie crist and you built it up to me, right,
this horrific child that has killed all these people.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Right, Like, But that's kind of interesting because a lot
of them and maybe it's kind of like the Left
Behind series in my head, I know that's just like
this correlation. But in this mind that they that the
people who think they're right are creating this and like
we're saving these things, but these things in the you know,
are the ones that ends them.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
It's like they like they believe that they're going to
be saved by this white man and accordant left behind
is the white man that's the anti Christ, you know,
like yeah, which I'm like, you might not be so
wrong about that one, you know where you go. But
also in that same level of like these are the
children and what is that you know that that quote
what if you this is the one that can kill cancer?
You know that? Have you heard that line? I love it?
(19:35):
But in the end, they're actually the ones that bring
about the death and apocalypse of everything.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, And I mean it is a lot of these
things we're going to talk about. I get why they're
so effective and horrific, like that is a.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Horrible It is interesting again with this really trauma because
you talk you specifically talk about the anti Christ, the
bad seed, being like orphans because they know that they
cannot not have the space. But this baby's gonna be bad,
so they go ahead and give it away and put
it in an orphanage, and they steal into being the
bad guy, the villain. H even Harry Potter had that
(20:10):
kind of ideal in that like Tom whatever his name is,
Riddle was was the orphan because he was not good enough,
but he was also evil, that's true, and he grew
into being more evil and the one who ended it all.
I did find an interesting article because in general, adoption
is the idea of outcast orphan. You know, that conversation
of being othered, the jokes that siblings play on each other, like,
(20:32):
oh you were adopted, just to make sure you you know,
Like that's the zinger. I did find an article on
Charizon dot com where they talk about the newest movie
which I haven't seen this movie yet and I don't
think it's religious horror again, you tell me bring her back.
Have you seen this movie yet?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yes, I have.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Okay, is it really horror?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I guess you could make that argument. It is a
brutal movie, though, that okay messed me up.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
All Right, I'm not gonna watch it. And either you
said this because I did think about it because of
the picture for the icon for it, I'm like, oh interesting,
but anyway, but this is like they are talking about
this movie and Mariam Balinesco, I'm sorry if I said
your name, but she talks about the idea of orphans again,
like how this is coming back round, which I feel
like they've never gone away, but you know that could
(21:19):
be me. And she does say this specifically in relations
to orphans and the kind of like cults in religion,
films like The Omen in nineteen seventy six, which were
there's so many films with orphans and religion and again
the anti Christ, the Christ, the Savior, the not Savior,
whatever has happening, or the reason that the mothers went crazy,
(21:39):
which is a whole different another thing. Yeah, films like
The Omen nineteen seventy six whip up fears that there's
something inanely wicked about taking in a child that isn't yours.
That movie's five year old infant interloper is able to
derail not only the conservative American family, but destroy the
pillars of US politics, which we're not talking about, but
I think again we probably should. In the full corp
(22:01):
Children of the corn An entire society of scythe wielding
orphans run amook, guided only by pagan ritual. Meanwhile, the
eerie orphan setting has spawned a horror subgenre all of
its own, but it does kind of bring back that
conversation of like, what are these things they are disrupting?
The perfect family? The orphan The actual movie talks about this.
(22:23):
Also the woman ends up being a woman spoiler. I
don't know if you haven't seen, because I think there's
like four more since then. Yeah, they actually did an
SVU episode kind of like it, but not horror level.
But anyway, all these things in this conversation of like
what is the bad Sea the Antichrist again that is
(22:46):
disrupting what is wholesome and pure, even though the reason
they exist is everything to do with the reproductive laws
that they have put into place again and since then
is an interesting back and forth in this conversation because adoption,
which is the easy throwout for pro lifers slash pro birthers,
(23:09):
but at the same time they also think that's not
somewhat evil and that these children are not pure.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yes, yes, And I also uh wanted to mention this
because of what I read about the First Omen, which
has been a long time since I've seen that one,
but not the first because that actually is a movie.
I'm going to talk about the first actual OMEN the
original referenced. Yes, yes, but also in the conversations we've
(23:42):
had about how conservatives try to use that as like
adoption and abortion in their argument, and that I think
that's why it is relevant in this conversation about religious horror,
because when we watch the movies, you see that playing
out in our politics and in our religion, those kind
(24:06):
of fears and ideas that get perpetuated. So yeah, that's
it's interesting and upsetting that that has had such a
lasting effect. And I remember I used to work on
the show's stuff to blow your mind. I've never seen
there's actually a movie called The Bad Seed, and they
(24:28):
did a whole episode on it, and I remember what
they talked about it. I've never seen it, but I
it was it was upsetting, Like I remember thinking like, oh,
my God. There's also something to be said about the
scary child who just right, children have been made into
we're afraid of kids. I think that's we can say
(24:51):
this in horror movies.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
So the article going back to it, they literally say,
so bring her back is far more realistic in the
litany of portrayals of orphans and horror that have proceeded,
where a child's worst side is often explained away by
the occult or possession by the devil. So reason like, literally,
there's no other explanation for a bad kid who are
typically orphans other than they're the devil and they're possessed right.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Well, and that's that's another topic we're going to get
into later. But that movie also deals with grieving mother,
the greeving mother trop.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yes it does, and the bad father apparently the absent father,
which yeah, we're going to talk about a little bit too.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So yep, so much to discuss. Okay, So I again
going back to Alien. As I said, there are a
lot of very weird religious elements in newer alien movies.
Usually it's a man, a very rich man, who might
(25:55):
remind you of a certain other man that exists actual
who thinks that he understands religion better than anyone. He
understands where the meaning of life and where it came
from and all of this stuff. And I have a
lot of surprise to no one. I have a lot
(26:15):
of thoughts about Alien. I some of the movies I
wouldn't say are good, but I do think they all
have something interesting to say. I think they all have
something interesting to say. There is a pretty graphic, what
I would consider abortion scene in one of them, and Prometheus,
(26:36):
which is probably the most religious one. And so if
you don't remember, if you didn't listen to that episode
when we first talked about Alien, but there's a lot
of When it first came out, it was very It
disturbed a lot of people for a lot of reasons,
but it brought up these conversations about male rape and
(27:01):
the horror of having to give birth. A lot of
people have rightfully pointed out, like, it's interesting that we
focus on the male part of it because women just
gonna have to deal with it, right exactly, But it was,
it was very horrific, and it was a child, a
(27:23):
thing inside you you didn't want, you never asked for,
and had to carry to birth and would kill you
likely would kill you. And so in the recent alien
movie Alien Bromulus.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Spoilers, Yeah, I haven't watched it.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Isabella Marsad's character does. She's pregnant, but then she gets
like also alien pregnant, so she gives birth to like
a human alien highpers superchild. Okay, and that kills her.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Obviously.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah, but a lot of people brought I was kind
of surprised how many people brought it up. And when
I was researching, you know, what's up with all the
reproductive rights horror movies, and it came up. But she,
I mean, it was also a thing where like maybe
she had she wanted that child, but then it became
deadly to her and she couldn't there's nothing she could
(28:25):
do when she just died.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
So many of that quip like and so many like
Supernatural has that with the Antichrist. Yeah, also, yeah, a
lot of like you have to die, the sacrifice is
obviously going to be you and and we're all going
to celebrate this, which again.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Choices Well, interesting that you say that. Okay, this is
this is a new thing. I did not know about
this whole thing. This is why I bought a quiet
place up in past episodes you should re listen to
or listen to all right. So apparently when A Quiet
Place came out, there was a big conservative anti choice
(29:09):
movement saying it was, in their words, pro life. Because
if you haven't seen that movie, spoilers can. Emily Blunt's
character gives birth to a baby in it and she
has to be silent because that's the whole plot of
the movie. And so you know they're saying these quote
pro lifers are saying the kid was born, so God
(29:32):
was looking out for them. That must be it. When
if you think about it, they another kid died, another
kid died, and they also the family didn't have safe
access to abortion. They really didn't have a choice.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
They didn't have a choice.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Also, they kind of like, I don't know what they
did in previous life, it probably says in one of
the other movies, but they clearly knew what was up,
like they had they I knew how to make that
like case with the oxygen in it for the baby,
so they wouldn't hit like they were clearly well off.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
They also had to sacrifice a father.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Like yes, and the conservative people were like, this is
it everybody.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I mean, that would be the epitome of pro birth. Literally,
another child died and the person died.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, but they were all into it. I had
no idea. So here's a quote from this website Desiring
God about the whole thing. Horror films taking place in
abortion clinics across the US and around the world, Silent
assassinations and stale rooms. They wear white coats, They make
death a business. They snatched children from deceived mothers who
(30:47):
tragically pay to have them taken away. We live in
a society full of this movie's monsters, and they seem
so ordinary against all the loud, pink pro choice banners
around us. A quiet place stands for human lives worth
sacrificing for pink.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Why don't they like pink? That's been that of random.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Well, I'm assuming this came out maybe around I don't
remember when this movie came out. Maybe it was around
the twenty sixty election.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
But was it because they were the pink hats or something?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
That's I mean, that's my first thought, But I don't know.
It could just be women like pink and we hate women.
It could be gendered.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's also gendered like yeah, dack on color.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, and we're We're gonna get into this later, probably
in part two, but I find it very fascinating the
gall to be like the horror that's happening in these
abortion centers, when they have crisis pregnancy centers that are
literally playing horror movies and deceiving people.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Right, deceiving well those I love that. This whole thing
sounds like the beginning of when we were talking about
those horror haunted houses or those horror houses scare houses
that were literally about going to hell, that they were
going to get together. That's what it sounds like. But
that's exactly had like someone just this is the descriptor
(32:11):
they had for their abortion clinic, quote unquote scary house
before going to hell.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Oh yeah. And I have to say, like I watching
that movie, which I did enjoy, I never would have thought.
The only thing I thought was they have to survive.
There was no part of me that was like is
this All I felt was like, I'm glad she didn't die.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
If right, I'm like, oh that's not good. That's she's right.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
It is a scary thing, exactly exactly. Well, apparently that's
not what a lot of other conservatives thought. And I
just want to shout out thanks to Sarah Lynn Missioners. Missioners.
I hope I'm pronouncing that closer correctly. Article on Medium,
the irony that conservatives think a horror film was pro
(33:02):
life reminds us how little they value life for this,
because that's I got the quote. I didn't have to
go to this website. I got the quote from there.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Oh. I was like, as you're oh, you got lucky.
I was thinking, you're about to get all the bad
man no sacrifice search engine.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
My algorithm not yet, not for this. It. That article
is great. I recommend it. It is full of righteous matriol,
and I love it.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Very angry.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah, a very very good.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Another thing I wanted to talk about in here that
I see cheme up a lot in these types of
movies is kind of the whole not having sex thing
or being married to Jesus, which I guess we should
have also brought up the virgin d episodes. Can listen
to those as well.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Interestingly, for some reason, when I was trying to look
up about like single mothers and abortion or like orphans,
it really wanted to talk about nuns. The nuns either
being the protagonist or the antagonists.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, nuns do come up a lot in this. I
feel like we're just giving you a bunch of teasers,
but we are going to talk about that as well.
But yeah, I mean, we have discussed the trope, the
very powerful belief in these movies and amongst people who
are religious, but in the power of virgins, or the
(34:41):
power of the uncorrupted and the power of corrupting them
in the case of evil. So evil. Yes. So here's
a quote about the First Omen from Dread Central from
the article The First Omen the Perfect Religion Horror Movie
by Mary Beth McAndrews. This is especially true in Stevenson's
(35:06):
direct and unabashed betrayal of sexual assault at the hands
of men and encouraged by other women. Importantly, assault here
isn't framed as titillating or as a spectacle, but rather
as violence that destroys the person mentally, emotionally, and physically.
One such scene is Luzz's vow ceremony, where she takes
the veil in a gorgeous wedding dress symbolizing her wedding
(35:28):
to Christ, but as other nuns tie on her wimple,
Stevenson frames the ceremony as a form of sexual violence
rather than a moment of joy, Loz whimpers and pain
as the strings Titan and she lies prostrate on the floor.
So often religious horror wants to examine the male psyche
and faith with women simply fodder for the devil that
(35:48):
need to be saved by the strong man of God.
And yeah, so this whole article was about the author
talks about their own experience with religion and sexual assaults
and about water this movie where it does frame it
because again, like you know, we've been taught this generally,
(36:10):
women have been taught getting married great thing, wonderful thing.
And when you tie in religion to it, then you're
adding that sort of religious morality to it. Then when
you're tying in like I'm getting married to Jesus, then
it's a whole other level. But in this case, in
this movie, which was an American woman who went to
(36:33):
Italy for this and by the way, I've seen this movie.
I'm going to talk about it more in a second.
This was it was interesting because she really wanted this life,
and they were the ones that were like, let's lure
her out into the clubs, Like to the people at
the church, we're trying to let's get her impregnated. It's
(36:58):
very dark, very very dark. Here is a quote from
a Din of Geek article by David Crowe called Immaculate
the First Omen and the blessed rise of pro choice
horror movies. Thus, in a real subversion of the film's
religious horror roots, Margaret discovers her paternal church father secretly
(37:18):
raised her and nurtured her with the intention of always
seeing her impregnated by a familiar of the devil, a
demonic jackal who we learn was also Margaret's father. In
other words, because the film's church believes it will empower
their institution if the anti Christ appears and thereby cause
a secular world to return to Catholicism for salvation, they
(37:38):
forced Margaret to carry to term an unwanted child that
was created by both rape and incest. The church even
aids this defilement by drugging her like the witches in
Rosemary's Baby and offering her body up to violation by
a demon who is also her own father. Yeah, that's
a first Shoman. So they brought this up specifically because
(38:03):
the old conservative argument has so long been you know,
except for case of rape and incest, but this one
was like, no, even then, this church doesn't care. Nobody,
Actually you can this. Yeah, m I watched this movie
with my mom, I just want to say, and she was.
(38:29):
She would just ask me these random questions. But I
remember at one point she just said, suddenly, did that
man's head fall off?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
You know, there's moments when there's so many incredible, ridiculous
things happening that you just can't help but one part
of like, no, that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
I don't think if I asked her today, I doubt
she could remember anything about it except for that scene,
because it was just that's not her thing. Like I said,
she didn't like didn't let me have The Exorcist in
the house. She hated movie Constantine when I made her
take me to see it in theater.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Rule I kind of forget about that one.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, I love that movie. I didn't too, but she
did not like it. But she watched this for me
with me for whatever reason. Uh, she didn't complain about it.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
So there's an interesting thing with all of these religious
horror that it has everything to do with the apocalypse
or the rapture or any of those things happening, and
they want to instigate it. So many of the good
guys become villains because they're trying to instigate or punish
in the name of God by doing these things, which
(39:42):
is an interesting Constantine did the same thing Gabriel. Was
that the angel that she did? But like, it's like,
is it not the only one? There's so many in
this conversation that they would be deemed as the good
people causing the chaos again.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, yeah, and so Immaculate and the first Omen came
out at the same time, like very close together, and
they're similar in a lot of ways. I would say
the first Omen I preferred, but I like the ending
(40:20):
of Immaculate better.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
So it's the first omen in relation to the Omen. Yes,
because I've never seen this, but this plot line sounds
really familiar, I'll say.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Yeah, but it's it's hindered by the fact that it
is part of a forty year old franchise. I think so,
And it's a prequel, so she's given to the.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Date. Yes, because isn't there a movie called Damien in
that franchise as well?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I think so. It's a long running franchise and it
also has several spin offs and several comedy spin offs
as well, but I will say Immaculate did have the
kill the baby ending that I well, there's that. Yeah, yeah,
but they were they were very similar. And also both
(41:11):
of them did hammer on the point that it was
like mostly men in power, but women were also helping
perpetrate these things, so it was not just yeah baby
mm hm, yes, indeed, okay this but mother. Yes I
didn't even put mother in here, but yes, absolutely, I
(41:33):
have a quick Nosferatu aside the new one. I have
not seen it, okay, So I wanted to do a
whole episode on it because I had so many thoughts
when I watched it. We might still I don't know,
but I was so fascinated by it because on the
one hand, it had so many it's it's interesting when
you see a movie that has so many of these
(41:54):
ideas that like, she needs her husband, that's the problem,
and then you have like the Nosratu, which I've seen
the original it's been a minute, but there's this whole
idea of like that sexy virginal maiden. You have sex
with them, and then you're the only one that can
redeem them or the salvation that's the only thing. And
(42:18):
then the interesting thing is too if you haven't seen
Noseratu and you were very interested in because it's the
same as the prequel. So I feel like the spoiler's
part is kind of out the window because that movie's ancient.
But if you really want to let me spoil, then
just skip two minutes. But you know, she basically offers
up her body and they have sex until sunrise, and
(42:40):
he dies because he can't resist her because he's a
vampire and not Seratu.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
She kills.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
She kills someone sex, but she also dies. She also dies.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Well good, I guess.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
And so I got to the end of it and
I was like, is this a sex positive movie? Because
I'm trying to figure out the whole time, she's thinking
about this vampire who at a young age she felt
kind of some attraction too, not necessarily sexual, but she
felt some kind of attraction too, and she has all
(43:16):
these men in her life that are really controlling and
all this stuff, and she made the decision. But I mean,
but at the same time, like they had sex until
they both died.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
I don't know. So the way you're describing it just
sounds like it's just a horny movie. The people.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
I think I'm probably doing a bad job at describing it,
but that is ending. It's a long movie, man, though
there's a lot of other things that happened. So I
have another quote from that Berkeley Center Georgetown series, and
this is about the original. Some may read ellen sacrifice
(44:02):
through the lens of Christian models of devotion, paradigms often
specifically gendered and gory and sexualized representations of the suffering
of female saints and martyrs. However, it's notable that the
male figures we meet in the film are incredibly passive
victims of the vampire, or are simply ineffectual. Perhaps more interesting,
(44:22):
given the perennial patriarchal need to control female sexuality, Ellen
feels drawn to the vampire throughout the film. The narrative
allows a woman not only to show desire, but also
to direct it toward an image of alterity, the inhuman
face and form of Noceratu. So I guess you know what.
(44:43):
You can also listen to our episode on women art Monsters.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Uh yeah, I always like to call That's what I
come back to.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Nosratu is such a doo soo. Anyway, I would love
to come back and talk about it. I wrote like
a whole outlined. Before I'd even asked about that, I
was like, no, I got some thoughts about this.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Is this an essay that you're going to put into
as an outline?
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Maybe recently, when Joey was on the show and we
talked about New York Comic Con afterwards, they were like,
you should publish these essays, and I said, I don't
who wants these essays. I think they're just for me.
I don't think they're for anybody else. But if we
do an episode, I'm.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Ready, that's going to be the essay. Let's go.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Mm hmm. I do want to say there are also
actual horror movies that are very much in the vein
of like, you know, you're bad Christian horror movies that
do depict women who have had abortions going to home.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
That is the same ones that sexualize women to the
point of like, oh, all they care about is.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Yes, exactly. So that does exist. I honestly don't really
want to give any more. I don't want to shout
any title, shout out any titles or anything, but that
is a thing that exists. I would say it's probably
pretty similar to what you might see in a Crisis
Pregnancy Center. And lastly, before we close out on this
(46:22):
part one of our religious horror study, we did mention
recently we've been talking about marriage horror. You can see
our episodes on Silent Hill f for that, which isn't
really religious, but it's I feel like when I personally
think of marriage, at least for a long time, I've
(46:43):
associated it with religion here in the US, So for me,
a lot of marriage horror does feel slightly religious. Examples,
I could think of Ready or Not as a kind
of satanic cult religious aspect to it, where they're you
(47:04):
might have to sacrifice this bride depending on what happens
with the game that we're playing Midsommar. They're not married necessarily.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But I think something about relationship.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Bad relationship, and kind of a cult thing going on,
So I could I see that in religious horror, and
then loss of a partner in general leading to some
kind of possession or hunting. I think that's a big,
a big trope, and I've actually been reading about it recently,
(47:38):
and I wanted to do another episode on mental health
and horror, but it just it's spiraled out of control,
so I couldn't couldn't do it for now, but you know,
that's sort of like the grief aspect, which is something
we're going to pick up on in part two. But
(48:00):
I think we should. We should probably call it for now, Okay, yes,
because we do have a lot more to get into
and listeners. If you have any anything you would like
for us to talk about, our examples you want to
shout out, please let us know. You can email us
at Hello at stuff Iever Told You dot com. You
(48:21):
can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff Podcasts,
or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've Never Told You.
You can also find us on YouTube. We have a
new merchandise a cop bureau, and we have a book
you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as
always too, our super producer Christina, our executive prdu of
my and a contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to
you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You prediction of
My Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
you can check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast
(48:42):
or if you listen to your favorite shows,
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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