September 4, 2024 • 52 mins
Anti-aging. Anti-wrinkles. Aging in women has long been demonized. Anney and Samantha brush up on the history of our preoccupation with youth in women and the lengths we have gone to stay forever young in this classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and welcome to stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I've never told you production if I hurried you, and yes,
I am by myself today.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Samantha's got some family stuff going on.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
But I did want to bring back an episode we
did since we've been talking about our thoughts around aging
as we get older, the good and the bad and
what we thought was gonna happen and what actually happened.
So I thought I would bring back this episode we
did about the history of that with women around anti
(00:45):
aging and our thoughts around aging, especially in the West.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So please enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff.
I'm never told your production of iHeartRadio. So I feel
like I have asked you this before, and if so,
you'll have to forgive me listeners. And Samantha, but what
are your thoughts on immortality?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I don't think you've asked me this before because that
is a very broad and general question.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Who knows a lot of conversations.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yes, we have off and on Mike when it comes
to immortality.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
M hmm.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I have no thoughts other than it's not real, So
why are we talking about it? My own self, my
own sad take on death and immortality is that I
assumed I would have been dead before. I would be
dead before fifty five. And I think it's just because
of all the things that I've gone through as a
(01:58):
kid that it didn't make sense, but I would extend
past a certain time. I do have a small fear
of growing old. Actually have a lot of fears in
growing older, and as my body feels like it's slowly
giving out is getting worse those little fears and trying
to figure out what to do just because I don't
want to go to like revert back to being dependent
(02:19):
on someone. And then of course you and I talked
about the fact that if we don't have children, who's
going to look after us, Who's going to care for us?
And what's going to happen if we can't care for ourselves.
So those are my thoughts on life and death and immortality.
I don't want to live forever because that sounds miserable,
(02:39):
especially with some of the things that have happened. Being
a depressive makes me sad to think that I would
have to be depressed with the rest of life life
seeing some of the bad things that have happened. I
am a pessimist, so it doesn't help.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
True. True.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I mean it's interesting because I've always felt that way too.
Of like immortality, he doesn't appeal to me unless people
around me that I cared about were and also that
I was in good like mental and physical condition.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Even then, it just sounds like eventually you'd get pretty bored.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
But I don't know. I mean, I was telling you
the other day, it's like the Star Wars is gonna
be coming out when I die.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
They never stopped. That's true.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
That the care for you also as of late, like
the more we talk about the apocalypse and thinking it
might happen sooner than later, Well, lord, I don't know
if I want to be alive through that.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
That's yeah. Yeah, Now we're starting out really grim with
this one. Yeah, sure are sure are. We're certainly not
the only people who have been talking about this and
thinking about this and as our technology shifts, because this
has been a part of our cultural narrative forever, like
(03:55):
when we talk about any type of creature like vampires,
and that's always like one of the reasons I love
what we do in the Shadows is you get to
see how wonky they are and out of touch they
are with their immortality. But as as technology has advanced,
people are legitimately talking about ways to slow down or
stop aging and or achieve immortality. And I know Jeff
(04:19):
Bezos was just in the news for investing in something
looking into this, and there's been a lot of movies
about it for sure. For anybody who's already like preemptively
angry that of the language I used around.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
That am at like stopping aging? Well, we'll get to that.
We'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Does that get But as we are moving into you
listeners know we love some Halloween, we love the season
of fall and scary movies and spooky things, And as
we're moving into that, this is sort of a lower
key tie in because it's just this concept we've been
(04:56):
talking about for a couple of months now about dying
to be young and our cultural just real fascination and
occupation with being young and where did that come from
and some of the extremes that it has gone to.
So to start out with, we're going to be talking
about media because, as we've talked about before, in in
(05:18):
our popular media and movies and TV, as a woman,
it's a joke, it's a running joke that you're dead
after thirty, like, that's.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Your career is over.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And the average age of a Hollywood Stars female is
thirty four, whereas for a man it is forty six,
So you can already see that's ten.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Your gap some vast difference.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Oh yeah so as in fact, and IMDb study reported
on by Washington Post found that among twenty year old actors,
women get eighty percent of the leading roles. By age thirty,
women only get forty percent of the leading roles, and
past age forty, men claim eighty percent of the leading
roles while women only get twenty percent, and have all
(06:06):
these roles for women to go to those thirty three
and younger and men overall just have way more roles
available to them, and we've seen that constantly.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I think I've told this story before, but I remember
so clearly watching I think I was too young to
be watching it that I was watching Entrapment and I
turned to my friend and I was like, why does
she want to be with Sean Connery? O?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Next question?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
But that being said, I know that people can have
age caps and relationships and it'd be great, but as a child,
it just did not.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I was like, I don't understand this.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
And I think what we're talking about here is not
just that fact, but that it is more acceptable to
see you very young women with older men, and people
are like ooh yeah, absolutely normal to the point that
it reflects real life. Leonardo DiCaprio and everybody kind of
accepts it. Yeah, there's a factor of like, uh, what
after a while, Yeah, but in the actuality, it's like, yeah, okay,
(07:07):
obviously one is more acceptable than a woman doing that, right,
because she is.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And we've talked about that a lot before, about that
double standard of for men it's seen as like, oh,
props to you.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
You've got a young lady interested.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
In you, young lady, whereas for women, it's like she's
preying upon this young man and it must be for
nefarious reasons, right, Yeah, those are generalizations and stereotypes, but
it's definitely more acceptable for an older man to be
with a younger woman.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Than vice versa.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And so this whole, like all these ideas around women
in age in Hollywood, has been a topic of conversation,
especially among female celebrities.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Who's spoken out about this.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Maggie Smith, Charlie's Thereon, Sarah Tiska Parker, Helen Miira, and
Mal Street, Kate Blinchett, so many mostly white women in
this context, but a lot of it is happening.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Like now and within recent years.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
It's pretty new in terms of how many women have
spoken up about it. And I did want to give
some brief like examples that were just top of mine
for me, because this is an idea that we see
so often, And one is from Black Swan, which I
watched recently, where Wanona Writer is this ballet dancer who's
(08:25):
been like head of the ballet. She's made a lot
of money for this troop, this huge New York troop,
but then all the other ballet dancers are kind of
talking about her behind her back and saying like, oh,
she's dead, like she's a dancing corpse.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Like she's so old.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
And then Winona Writer's character obviously being upset about this
and furious that she's given so much of herself to
this company, and then they just kind of unceremoniously to
her away when she gets older and replace her with
Natalie Portman. And even in terms of like the romance
kind of dynamic between the male leader of the ballet
(09:04):
troupe and Anona writer, and then Natalie Portman. That always
stuck with me. And Natalie Portman's character has to see
where she's like, oh, poor Beth, like obviously feeling sympathy
and like seeing that happen with her mom when she
got pregnant, and feeling like I one day I will
be thrown away too. But yeah, that just always stuck
with me because it's like, like I said, it is.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
A running joke. We all know this joke and this idea.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
And there are certain aspects that I get, like it's
weird because I understand that, you know, younger people in
general can do more athletic things I don't know, but
still like, that's really terrible to just be like, well,
you're done and you'll never work again.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
So another example I've never actually seen black Swana need
to go back to it. But another example would be,
of course, one of our episodes First Wives Club. I
mean that is the ultimate story of of being replaced
by younger women. As each one of the characters show,
whether it's Sarah Jessica Parker's character who is in competition
(10:09):
with Bette Midler, or even the therapist with Diane Keaton's character,
you know who's gets ran over her, and then you've
got the Goldie Hahn character, which she's replaced by the
sixteen year old actress because she I think she's in
her thirties.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, in this I'm pretty sure she comments directly on
what we're talking about and.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Talking about being replaced and to the point that she
plays the hag mother who dies essentially an upcoming movie
and her thinking she's coming in for the younger character
and being like, whoop's just kidding, and so she retires
out of film to go on to Broadway because it's
more acceptable for mature women to be a part of Essentially, Yeah,
there are so many things in that storyline on it
(10:53):
all together, just talking about how women are set to
pasture at a certain age as if they are no
longer of any purpose. And we think about that with
like menopause again, like whether or not we're able to
breed essentially, to put it very bluntly, and or what
our value is. And when it comes to Hollywood, I'm
sure and we have seen it being even harsher narratives.
(11:15):
But you know, in everyday life people talk about that too,
whether it's the cliche of being left for a younger
women and or having to compete with younger women for
career or any of those statuses. You know, it's interesting
to see. But this movie was definitely one of those like, hey,
in your face, this is what's happening, right comment.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Right, yeah, and we're gon we're gonna break in, breakdown
some of that a bit more later about kind of
this pressure to be invisible as you get older as
a woman. And then I was thinking about this Amazon
movie called Neon Demon, which I don't know if you've
seen that.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
I have not.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Okay, well, it was a very strange film, but it
kind of That's why every time I think of it,
I feel like it's some fever dream that I had.
But it's about like models in Hollywood, And is it
el Fanning or Ellie Fanning?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
El Fanning, I don't know, you know who I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
She comes into this young model into this world and
there's a lot of this movie's very up and down
and bumpy, but there was interesting commentary on like the
power of beauty and youth for women. And she says
something about like you know what the power she feels
when she walks into her room and everyone is looking
at her and feeling jealous of her. Of course, these
(12:34):
other models that have been in the game longer than
her don't like that, so they end up spoilers, I
guess how old is This movie's pretty old. They end
up killing her and eating pieces of her body to
try to get her youth, including an eyeball.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
It was real gruesome.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Well okay then, but yeah, that was just I did
not expect that turn, for one, But yeah, it was
another kind of example of this this pressure to feel
young and kind of that diminishing value of like they
were willing to murder this person to feel like they
(13:09):
were young and had in their minds more power. And
then on top of that, songs. We've been right singing
these songs.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
And I will say so for the first song you
picked out, because as you were and I were talking
about this episode, I told you in my head, I
can't stop singing forever young. Yeah. Also, that might makes
me go back to a thirty Rock episode in which
Jenna is being She has that same ecedence of going
to a show thinking she's about to be cast as
(13:39):
a teenager, when probably she's cast as the dying mother
once again, and she actually says in the line I
have to die now I'm thirty six, like she's essentially
saying that, but because she's so in such shock and
so sad about it that she's taping up her face
singing forever young and brother of Marror, trying to make
herself look younger because you in that crisis. But that
(14:01):
is where both of those things come into mind.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yes, forever Young has been sick in my head too,
would you know that? Good? I always thought of that
as being like in your heart, forever young, but what
do I know? And then for me, are You Old Enough?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Which is a very creepy song, which is about this
guy basically saying like are you old enough to have
sex with?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
But that was recently featured in Willington Paranormal and it
has been stuck in my head. But there's I mean,
there's so many songs about that and right, we're gonna awesome, yes, yes,
and kind of like a lot of times that it
is dudes like trying to get young girls. And there
are plenty of songs about you know that romanticized youth,
(14:45):
and we're gonna look into that as well. But yeah,
that it's very present and a lot of our media.
I was also thinking about books like The Portrait of
Dorian Gray, which isn't women but kind of again shows
this like real historical preoccupation we've had with youth, or
the old Hag feeding on the young maiden trop which
is in Snow White, and pretty much.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Every fairy tale that features an older woman and.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
A younger woman try to take that youth.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yes, which is another way women have been pitted against
each other in our media.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
But also if you move out of that.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Like it's a compliment to say you look so much younger,
and it's one of those kind of problematic compliments where
what are you really saying and what are we holding up.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
With a compliment like that.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
There's this whole idea of like trying to get away
with it or looking you know, younger. And I was
thinking about this too in terms of I haven't been
(15:51):
shopping in a mall in a very long time, but
I mean certainly within the past couple of years. I
always I still go to the junior sect, and it's
because I feel like they're clothes, they are cuter, and
if you go into like the women's section, it's all
like business clothes.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Right, I'm not gonna lie. I've now jumped away from
the junior's clothing because their size no longer makes sense
to me. Mmmm, now that is true, So I'm gonna
go over here. I think that's why I stay way
from things like the mall, where you have departments who
are very like ages in that they separate it like that.
(16:28):
H places like Target where they do have the junior sections.
I've seen it, but the women's section and the junior
section are similar enough that it's like, Okay, there's not
really different variations to this. I'm good with it. And
typically it's just all like, hey, here's this one sweater.
It was like Ponchos season of the Ponchos. So I'm
definitely leaning into quote unquote my age clothing in that
(16:52):
I'm just rather but I've always dressed like this. There's
nothing in my wardrobes, even being younger, that really said
this is a juniors off of it. Like I'd never
really wore like jeans, I had holes in it. I'd
have one accident, lay tripped and fell, and I you know,
like that's why, sure, But like it was never my
(17:14):
thing because I was always so self conscious that I
wanted to mute it down as much as possible, so
just as playing as playing can be is my my
go to and I still am that way to this day.
And again, I love cardigans and ponchos and I feel
like that's definitely like older leaning and I'm like, I'm.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Cool with that.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I will forever wear that. This is my this is
who I am.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I do think there's I don't
want to make it sound like there aren't cute clothes
for women who are not juniors like older, right, there are,
but I feel like in a traditional mall department store setting,
it's like, oh these are it's again like the breakdown
of the Badonna and the Horror almost where it's like, oh,
junior section, cuter, cuter things, maybe some cleavage going on,
(17:56):
and then like business suits, yeah, or.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
You have the dresses that has no body shape and
it's somehow doubled up to something else and you're like
what is this say, because yeah, even in shoes, I
do that like this is obviously a younger kid. Get
to stick with this, you know, not this, And it's
kind of like these are shoes I don't.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Right, Yeah, And that's something I know a lot of
my friends and I have joked about because I'm really
young at heart, as they say, and I feel like
I get judged for like in childish things and a
lot of times I'll end up in like the boys
section because they have like superhero shirts are Star Wars shirts, and.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
That's what I like.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
But then there's this whole idea of like age appropriate clothing,
which we could break down in more seriously, but in
terms of what we're talking about now, it's like you
reach an age and that's just you have to wear, yeah,
a formless right blanket almost you know what.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Those give me my moumou.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
I've got my Star warso you.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Know, ill of a good poncho?
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I do?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Do? I not?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
There's nothing wrong with it, but I think we need
more options and we need to investigate.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
No. When it comes to also, it's kind of the
expense and who gets what is seen as a stylish
and we also know that we see that as in
sizes too, like when we talk about celebrities trying to
find really nice, fancy things and being told we're not
going to give you this, and we're not going to
sponsor you this. We don't want you to wear this
type of thing. And we see that agism is a
(19:32):
complete thing where we saw Millie Bobby Brown got like
ripped apart because they were like you wearing clothesess too
old for you. And it's kind of like, I don't understand.
She's wearing a cute suit outfit. Yeah she's sixteen, but
she's pulling it off and she's coming to a fancy event.
M what's what's the problem and her ripped for that.
(19:52):
It's not like it was sexy and even at that,
like we need to talk about that standard dress co
standard outside of this anyway, But I had to say,
is why can't she And then having older women who
were wearing a little bit tighter clothes and showing a
few more things and be like that's that's too sexy.
You're a mom, You're like, well does that mean?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, it's just another instance of policing women's bodies and
what they wear.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
And like we'll take we being society at large, not me.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
But personally, but any opportunity to tear a woman down
right and make her feel bad about her body. But yeah,
like going back to you know that whole quote of
like looking good for your age, which is I think
also problematic in terms of behind your back, they might
be saying she's too old for that or whatever. You know,
(20:42):
never ask a woman her age, which really implies that
it's shameful and embarrassing to get older. And then, yeah,
it was just kind of as you were talking, I
was kind of thinking about how clothing cycles, so like
what people might have been wearing in the eighties is
now popular nineties amone younger people, and so it's kind
of like silly that will police people for this, But
(21:05):
when when the cycle comes back now, it's cool when
young people are right.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Really kept some of my clothes because it has I'm like,
I had that outfit, like I've picked out specifically, I
wore that in junior high school, in middle school. Cool. Cool, cool. Yeah,
And I think one of the big things you were
talking about, you know, being complimented. I tell my age. Obviously,
I'm very fit forward. Everyone knows my age. I'm turning
forty one soon, and it's kind of like, oh god,
(21:32):
I'm turning forty forty one. Forties is a huge number.
And then comparing myself and this is really bad on
me and my own perspective as well as my own
biases is like do I look like that forty one
year old? Because I don't. I don't want to look
like that like that. There's levels of like I need
to look younger and I want to tell people my
age so they better have a right reaction, like in
(21:53):
my head, they're going to be shocked or disbelieve because
as the way that has the other today they're like, okay,
I'm like sun and I just kind of walk away.
But there is that level as I'm getting older, like
but I don't look like that forty one year older, right,
because I still have the image of my mother being
forty something when I was so young, and now I'm like, yeah,
(22:14):
I look like my mother. Obviously I don't because she's
very white and I'm not. There's very big differences, but
the aging level of like wow, it's weird.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, and I think that kind of shit it is.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I think I think that line of thinking is really
it is encouraged by our media because I feel like
I see magazine headlines like that all the time.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Like how did she accomplish this? Look? She looks so young?
Speaker 2 (22:40):
And right, I know, like you know list thirty under
thirty when I was researching this, this came up a
lot of like that's also kind of a troublesome line
of thinking.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
But we do see it.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
We see it, and it usually it's trying to sell
something where it's like, how did she do it with
this retinall cream?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Of course, Uh, it's the.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Whole thing, and you know, going back to it is
a whole conversation about how we look at youth and
how we treasure that and long for it. Sometimes I
don't want I wish there's a part of me we're like, man,
I do wish that I was able to enjoy my
youth in that I have so much more confidence now
(23:26):
than I did ten fifteen, even five years ago, honestly,
not really like ten fifteen years ago, and really wishing
that I could have gone back to be like, hey, right,
it's okay, enjoy being you instead of constantly being so
self conscious that you can't you feel awkward in any situation.
And that's not a way to enjoy life. That's the
(23:46):
only part in that. But yeah, in the West, the
aging is often seen as something shameful and to be
hidden away and fought against instead of being respected, which
I'm like let's get back to that. Although to be fair,
some of the boomers have not shown that level of right.
I think whish we could talk about that later. But
(24:07):
like in general, respecting age versus uh, yeah, experience being
invisible because we're no longer relevant. I say, we our
elderly are often invisible to us. And yeah, in the US,
specifically in this culture, it's kind of gross. Yeah, but
we don't respect. Of course, respect is earned in that,
(24:31):
but there's just that level of like, huh, where was that? Yeah,
but of like, we want to age. That means we've
come through life okay, ish, we've survived it. And again
we've long discussed the link between traditional beauty for women
and power. That's a whole big conversation.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Looking young, especially when it comes to women, is a
big business. So many products promising to do away with
any signs of age. You can get rid of your wrinkles,
erase gray hairs, get dinner and look younger. Get dimples
that will make you look young too, like almost everything.
When we did our episode of Ridiculous History where we
were talking about beauty trends, kind of ridiculous beauty trends
(25:25):
or dangerous beauty trends of history.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Almost all of them were about looking younger.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Right, Oh yeah, absolutely, we're looking wider both of those things.
And some numbers for you, because you know we love
some numbers up in here. As of twenty eleven, Americans
spent about ten point four billion dollars on cosmetic surgery.
The anti aging industry is believed to be worth one
hundred and forty billion dollars. And then a twenty eighteen
(25:53):
study found that over fifty percent of women aged eighteen
to twenty four surveyed agreed that an anti wrinkle treatment
was essential to their beauty regimen. I'm like, I don't
think I have any of those. I'm trying to think
about it. Mine was all about acting because I still
get them. I got one big name of pimple right here.
I'm like, I'm supposed to be forty. This is not
(26:17):
supposed to be an issue anymore.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
It's okay.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
And this was up from twenty percent who said the
same thing in twenty twelve, and searches for retinal I
believed anti aging ingredient doubled in twenty twenty. Not gonna
lie kind of use that for my under eyes because
I was like whoa, I like tired.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah, I've definitely tried products for my under eyes. It's
mine are very dark and baggy, and that is because
I don't sleep very well, among other things. And yes,
just disclaimer, we're not really coming out against any of
these things per se, but more against the societal pressure
that makes people, and in this context mostly women feel
(26:59):
like they have to do these things that it has
to do with their worth. And I think there's a
lot of fear around it, like every day your skin
is getting worse. I saw this, I think it must
have been in two thousand and one and two thousand
and two interview with oh, what's her name? Naomi Watts,
and she was saying, you know my skin, the way
(27:21):
I keep it this way is I put on sunscreen
every day and ever since then, I put on sunscreen
alce every day on my face. But that was like
the power of it, because I was like, what if
if if I mess it up now, it'll be too
late later, right, And yeah, this does start at a
young age, because I must have been like, I don't know,
fourteen thirteen or fourteen when I saw that interview, and
I remember when I was in high school. This really
(27:43):
traditionally pretty girl who's like a year older than me.
She was talking about her anti wrinkle regimend that she
was doing, and I was I looked at her, like,
oh my gosh, am I supposed to be doing that already.
And a lot of anti rinkle commercials do use young
women that definitely don't have wrinkles anywhere if they do
their airbrushed out or like, not that.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Many, right, and I find this interesting. I think the
other big problem is not we're not saying that these
things are awful or that you know, the devil or anything.
What we're saying is we see this as a marketing
racket that is completely aimed at women. And if this
is truly for their benefit, women's benefit, why the hell
is this so damn expensive. That's the other part. I'm like,
(28:26):
what is happening? And then the links and the way
we're ruining the environment to get to some of those
things also really really problematic, And it's all about that capitalism. Yeah,
and we know this, and I think that's part of
the problem. Is it's not so bad to want to
try things that are good for your skin or what
you know, want to do things preventatively whatever, and being
(28:47):
self conscious and making you feel good about yourself, that's
one thing, but doing it at what costs is the
conversation as well as who is benefiting it and why
are we looking closer at that?
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:01):
And of course we make fun of older women who
do it too, that they're pathetic and not fooling anyone,
despite the fact that we live in a society that
penalizes age and our further penalizing women for trying to
fit into that society that was created to go against
right essentially, so trying to fit into that narrative, trying
(29:22):
to make it a situation or having you know, the
audacity to change something that they don't really find uplifting
for themselves. That's a whole other conversation too. Why can't
we let it be?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, and I think this has been a big It's
been something people have been discussing a lot around women
and cosmetic surgery and all of this stuff we're talking
about we could unpack further in other episodes. But how
like we're saying the joke is you're dead at thirty,
like the median age is thirty three or whatever, And
then yet we make fun of actresses who get cosmetic
(29:55):
surgery to look younger when that's their career and their job.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
It is a problem. It's a problem that that's true.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
But I think it's very telling that we are making
fun of people who are trying to not lose their
job essentially in a really right sexist, patriarchal agist system.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Right, and also just knowing that for a lot, and
we could talk about the Korean beauty standards, which is
just which is a whole different conversation in itself, that
it happens starts at a very young age and being
molded essentially into what is thought of as the perfect body,
the perfect face, the perfect skin tone, like all of
(30:38):
these things. It's such an oh yeah, overwhelming sense of
like what what are we supposed to be doing? And
for those who aren't within that narrative, within that frame
of thinking and or seeing looking, what happens to those
people completely dismissed and I'm not seen?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, Yeah, it's yeah, Like we said, it starts at
such a young age and you really get inundated with
it and internalize it.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
I know there's been studies that found by like the
age of four, for.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Young girls, they're like wrinkles are bad, age is bad,
and a lot of other troubling beauty standards as well,
just so young.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
We pick up on it.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
And like going back to your point when it comes
to this whole conversation of yeah, we want women to
do what they want to look to feel good about
themselves or something they might just enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
It's like when we talked about in taking.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Self care, you know, spat days, that might really be
your thing, but there is a financial and time cost.
And also this whole what we're really talking about is
the demonizing of age and particularly for women. And also yeah,
it's just that pressure, the pressure to do it. Like
if you want to do it, you know, good for you,
(31:54):
but it's I think a lot of us feel like
we have to do it, and there is kind of
like a fear base decision of oh no, my value
is going down.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I need to save up money and.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Go get this and go do this, and just feeling
bad about yourself, which I hate, right right, Yeah, And
then when we look at sexual assault and grooming, there
are so many instances, like we were talking about earlier,
of older famous men grooming younger often underage young women,
and there are even pieces of media in.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
All kinds of media directly about that whole thing.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Several recent studies have looked into why growing numbers of
young women are seeking cosmetic surgeries, with one of the
dominant theories being asked to do with social media filters.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
So basically, you.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Want to look as airbrushed as your social media filter looks.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
You want to match that.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
But also obviously the constant bombardment of messaging in our media.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Again, we can unpack all of the stuff and.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, it's definitely grown. Maybe also accessibility has grown. That
needs to be part of that conversation too, but it's
always been there. If you think about the women who
literally went through plastic surgery to look like Barbie, and
that was before social media. She was already famous because
that was her whole stint. And then there's been several
(33:14):
more that follows suit and they're big influencers. And that's
kind of that other conversation is the level of what
we look at as who are influencers, and it's typically
everything about looks. So it seems to me, especially when
it comes to women are non binary, and it's one
thing to love makeup and do makeup. That's gorgeous. I
really wish people could teach me how to do it well,
(33:36):
because I'm not one of those people do it well.
My niece is really good at it. She's actually a
makeup artist. I'm like, go ahead, do your things. I
don't know what this means, right, and maybe I need
your help. But that's something different than that. That's the
influence and trying to get that perfect standard. And yeah,
some of these we need to come back to. Annie.
Is the fact that a lot of these filters are
(33:58):
not made for women of color. Yeah, many times that
I've put it on my face and it did nothing.
I was like, what is this? And the fact of
the matter is because it's not for women of color
and it doesn't do which is probably a good thing. Honestly,
I don't know. It looks yeah, I don't know. There's
many times where I did the filter, I was like
why why, It's probably a good thing, But many times
(34:21):
there was nothing. I was like, oh, I'm too brown
for this. Interesting I compack to that. So data from
Okay Cupids suggests, not surprisingly, that men seek out slightly
younger women when they made the first time women slightly older.
But if men remarried, they seek out women half their age.
(34:43):
The rating theory for why is this is how men
and women have been socialized historically, with women more concerned
about social status, men more concerned with indicators of fertility.
I wonder, though, I have to go back, because we've
talked about this a little bit. Every time I ever
been on a site, most of the men, if they
(35:03):
had an age preference, if would always do their own
age as the cap and younger.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
HM.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
So if the man was thirty five, it would be
thirty five to twenty four, like I've seen that. And
there'd be several men who would do not even to
the As they were getting older, the age would stay
the same. So they might be thirty eight, but their
cap for twenty four to thirty five. And I'm kind
of like, you're a thirty eight year old man, you
want to they have twenty four year old? Is what
(35:33):
is happening? So I did find that a lot like
if it was specific, it was much younger typically, and
I found that very interesting. So I find this like,
I feel like that's underwhelming of a report.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Well, you know, it was only a couple of thousand
of people. And also yeah, I mean it's hard to
I would imagine the data pool. It's probably pretty significant,
but not too significant when it comes to remarrying and
things like that. But it was just interesting because he
the founder, wanted to look more into this and that's
(36:09):
sort of the general pattern that he saw.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
But yeah, be interested to find out more.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
In twenty nineteen, the US Food and Drug Administration had
to release a statement advising against older people injecting themselves
with the plasma of younger people, the so called vampire treatment.
Soon after the FDA's statement, California startup Ambrosia Health began
offering one leader of quote youth blood for eight thousand
dollars and two leaders for twelve thousand dollars, and several
(36:53):
companies have popped up around blood and use in this
idea of like it's not always framed as it will
make you younger, but it'supposed to like revitalize your body inside.
And yeah, we talked about the vampire facial as well.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Right, I feel like if you got like just blood,
that's going to start a lot of flowing in your system,
and typically not necessarily because you're healthier, but because of
like the flow the blood flow, which we know does
have a little to do with like whether or not
you are pale, you know, all of that. I feel
like that whole narrative is misleading. But an you want
(37:27):
to go in, we'll buy two for one, two for
the cheaper price.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
That's some weird like blood bond before betweens.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Look at two bags. It's cheaper to get two, obviously,
look at it.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
There we go, There we go.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I have actually written a horror story about this very thing.
When it happened, I remember this new story and I was.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Like, oh, it haped.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Speaking of horror stories, QAnon has gotten in on this too.
Some followers of q and on believe that members of
the Hollywood elite take a psychedelic drug manufactured from the
fear of children called adrenochrome, and they also think that
mosters eate the Pixar film is essentially a Fortian slip,
that that's what like kind of happens, and Hollywood accidentally
(38:10):
told on themselves. So the story goes that this chemical
is extracted from the pituitary gland of tortured children. From
what I can tell, the actual adrenochrome is fairly easily
obtained chemical. I don't know that it's like legal, but
it's not too hard to get.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Not that it's like it doesn't matter, they're not going
to listen to me. But obviously, oh, I know.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
They went as far as the saying that, yeah, pedophiles,
that eight children and that has something to do with
that as well like keeping youth, as well as a
satanic ritual.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
Right right, ye okon you are you are something else anyway,
So there has been some pushback against these narratives recently.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
In twenty seventeen, Helen mary And appeared on the cover
of a Loure magazine where she was called the hero
we need and when it comes to ending the anti
aging industry. That same article got a lot of flack
for its promise to use different terms of things like
anti aging, anti wrinkle, drawing criticism that it was just
(39:18):
repackaging the same stereotypes. Yeah, it was this whole thing.
It's kind of hard where you're like, I think this
is where we have a hard time with feminism as
well women, not because we don't think it exists and
we know it's necessary, but the fact that we have
to highlight it in such a way that it becomes
a typical and it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be like this,
(39:40):
should just let it be. The opposite should be happening
where we don't have to worry about aging instead of highlighting, Look,
she looks so young and forever young because she's successful.
Now it's like we should change that and make that
a norm instead of trying to highlight it being unusual.
Can we do that same thing with feminist stuff, like
we shouldn't be highlighting someone because they're doing well as
(40:00):
a woman, but we have to in order for any
recognition or any equity to be had. And it's irritating. Yeah,
oh yeah, But whatever the case, people are finally getting
tired of all of this. Yay us included. Twenty twelve
worldwide study found that sixty three percent of respondents believe
(40:21):
that our cultural preoccupation with youth have gone too far.
And yeah, I think we just started to understand that
as all of the regimens and the sunderies and the
money that we could spend and the lies that are happening,
and the influencers that keep spouting miracle drug.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yeah yeah, And there are a lot of reasons behind
our cultural preoccupation with you. Some of which we've already
talked about, and particularly in this context in the West,
one is yep, money capitalism. Young people are believed to be,
not always accurately, actually the people who spend more time
on screens and thus are exposed to more ads. Because
of that, ads often are more geared towards younger people
(41:03):
and feature younger people, which internal leads to this idea
that youth is the norm and what we should all
strive for. We should all want to be these beautiful
young people we're seeing in ads because they're cool and
there's something to aspire to. Again, generalizations, because most ads
I see these days are just cringey, but you know
(41:23):
that's the idea. They represent people who are connected and
living life to the fullest. People aged eighteen to thirty
have long been believed to have the most disposable income,
but again at twenty twelve study found that people over
fifty accounted for over forty seven percent of household spending.
And that's been an interesting conversation to play out as
well of.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Just like how that these kids are just coming out
of college, how do they have disposable advice?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
I think it's just a really false It kind of
goes back to this conversation where we're there's all this
hand ringing over like the millennials aren't buying houses and
owning cars anymore, and we're like, yeah, because we are
not the same generation and we don't have who can't
get jobs, we can't get like you're well paying jobs,
Like it's different. But I think they're basing it off
of how it was and it's a mistake and it's
(42:09):
not the same anymore.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Interesting. I'm bafful because I'm like, I didn't get a
living wage, truly living wage until yeah, I had three
jobs and that was just four years ago.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah. No, I think it's really misinformed.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
I think it's based off of how it was with
like boomers who had disposable income, right, but it's not.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
Yeah, So another reason our narratives around age, especially for women,
as something humiliating in chambel, something to fight against lest Yeah,
we needed we needed to fight.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah for that, we need to fight to change it.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Well, let's just have when you think of because companies
and capitalism is so good at doing this and adapting. Right,
So we're like, oh, we don't like anti aging, quit
saying that in your ads and they're like okay, and
so now they're using all these words like combat or
defy or implying that your fight against this thing, which
thereby implies that it is bad.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Another factor is long held belief that youth is linked
to fertility and health of women, and thus a young person,
particularly a woman, is a more desirable partner.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
And we've talked about that a lot.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
This very unfortunate, unfortunate pressure for young women like our
sexual desirability, particularly when comes to the male gaze, is
also the value and youth is usually almost always tied
into that. A study of dating sites conducted by sociologists
at the University of Michigan found that a woman's desirability
(43:40):
to other website users began to decline after age eighteen,
whereas a man's desirability as a potential date could peak
as late as forty five, which is just upsetting.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
That's eighteen.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Yeah, yeah, this makes me want to like flip the
table over. What eight the hill? So in twenty eleven,
study found that men reported feeling old at fifty eight
for women, oh yeah, twenty nine.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
I always talk about I make a joke about feeling
older it's typically because my friend groups, I'm the older
one of the friend group, so I always tease about
the fact that I'm old. I don't know if I
started feeling really old until recently when my hips started hurting,
which I was running and my hip started hurting around
thirty five, and I was like, oh God, what's happening?
(44:34):
And my back went out, and I was like, Yep,
there it is.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
I think it's an interesting jextaposition with conversations that you
and I have had. Whereas I don't necessarily feel old,
but man, am I'm already preparing for what if I
slip in the shower? Like I'm already yeah, imagining these
scenarios and what am I going to do? Which is
I mean that is also a big part of what
we're talking about too, right. We've talked about that a
(44:59):
little lot of this fear of ending up as the
Heaven forbid, the spinster who has an no one who's
going to care for her, and she's going to die alone,
dial alone.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
So that's the threaten it.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yep, it is, And we've talked about that recently.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
And we're not going to go into too much history
because we did talk about it, and we have talked
about it in several things. If you didn't listen to
our Ridiculous History episode, you can hear us go into
more examples of the history of women trying to usually
capture beauty and youth through these very dangerous.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
And painful looking things.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Often, but yes, there are so many instances throughout history
of people and especially women going to extreme measures to
stay young, whether it's Cleopatra bathing in the milk of animals,
Elizabeth Bathrie allegedly bathing in the blood of virgins, Medieval
and Victorian practices of putting slices of meat or putting
some wine on the face in hopes of minimizing the
(45:53):
appearance of wrinkles. In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries,
ads around skin creams were almost entirely targeted towards women,
with these messages that looking young was the only way
that they could attract men. And here are some examples
of a ad copy from this time, one claiming that
quote middle aged skin, which could set in as young
as twenty two, meant that women had quote empty date
(46:15):
books or a wife who quote loses love. There was
an ad that featured to Belieguered Cupid crying I give
up a nineteen twenty six add read poor Lois, see
how old she's growing? Or this ad that asked is
it the greatest crisis of a woman's emotional life? The
sudden merciless message from a mirror's crystal dips you are
(46:38):
fading just a bit.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Geez.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
That feels like a threat. How dare you? Yes, don't
throw me?
Speaker 2 (46:46):
And this is also like, I mean, no surprise, but
depending on the life you've had and career options you've
had in environment you grew up in, your skin might
just get a little rougher around the edges. This is right,
I have access genetics. There's all kinds of things not
necessarily in your control or at all in your control.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
And this is just terrible.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Again, I feel that's a threat. So as these days
have shifted gears to sound yes, more modern, moving from
shaming language to traditionally empowering language like defy or combat
as you had just said. And then there's also the
health based jargon for you, like vitality, radiance or that
glow which I told recently that I was glowing. I
(47:31):
was like, yeah, I'm just really oily.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Thanks for passing, and.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
There's a lot of emphasis on natural and the scientific
sounding terms, which if you haven't noticed, we don't have
many of those ads that we boys because any is
like hell na and I definitely agree. And in two
thousand and seven, Dove even debuted a pro age line
because we're pro age. In twenty eighteen, a Neutrogena ran
an ad featuring Carrie Washington, Nicole Kidman, and Jennifer Garner,
(48:00):
then all over forty with a tagline We're not anti aging,
We're anti wrinkles.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
I feel like that's the same thing, in't that?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Well, that's That's kind of this whole thing we've been
talking about, is we're these companies are so good at this.
They're repackaging the same thing with different language, but it's
still the same thing.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
What's celebrity level of examples.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Rather occasionally these companies get fined for making unsubstantiated claims
like boosting genes. If you'll notice the language in these
the ad copy is usually quite vague. And I only
did a precursor research on this, but I'm fairly certain
nothing has None of this has been proven to work.
(48:42):
All it does, like a lot of times they'll say,
might minimize the appearance of wrinkles or something like that,
but yeah, you might want to keep an eye out
for that. We've also got things like, yes, the vampire
facial leeches and placenta treatments that celebrities are singing the
praises of, like some of the sounds what I was reading,
I was like, surely this is the sixteen hundreds ors
of Nope, it is modern day. So this has just
(49:03):
been a through line through our history. And also like
it is fascinating kind of what's been happening with some
of these women celebrities who have been releasing like that
non edited picture, which is also we've talked about that
in the past episode, but it was a couple of
years ago, so we might want to revisit it.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
That can be problematic as well.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
It's tricky, it's yeah, but it's interesting, interesting stuff happening here.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Well, all of this rebranding around anti age was mostly
due to the fact that anti aging was already on
the way out. From twenty ten to twenty fifteen, profits
in that sector of fill from two point two billion
dollars to one point nine billion dollars. So yeah, I
do hope it decreases. I really do.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
I mean again, if it's something that makes you feel
good and you like it, like I have plenty of
skin products that just make my skin feel nice, right,
and I love a good just washing of the face,
to be honest, It's surprising how nice that can feel.
But yeah, this like language and rhetoric around demonizing aging
and women especially who are aging any signs of it,
(50:14):
that's not healthy and that we need to change that.
We need to work to change that.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Right, And anything that's too gimmicky and over the top
versus the things that, yeah, again make you feel good
about yourself, that's great. If that's something that you enjoy
and feel good, then wonderful. But to be obsessive and
lose a lot of money and doing all these things
that really causes you more harm, that's that's a different
question in itself, and I think that that's definitely what
(50:40):
we're talking about and understanding, Like aging is not a
bad thing, Surviving is incredible. Good job you did it,
which is kind of how I celebrate. I get depressed
around my birthday. I've been talking a lot about depression lately,
mainly because it has a whole other connotation with trauma,
and that has something to do with the holidays which
happened around the season, and I have a whole lot
of life feelings on that. But what I do celebrate
(51:04):
the reason I don't hide my ages because I'm like, yeah,
I did it. Yeah, I didn't think I could make it.
I'm made it to forty one, right, did it? Yes?
Speaker 1 (51:13):
So we're happy that you did many more returns.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
But that's another thing I was thinking about the other day,
is I just it's not a great way to live
if every day you're like you think your value is
getting less lass. No, it's not a great way to
go go about life.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
Who anyway, we had a lot to say about this,
Yes we did well. Listeners.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
As always, we would love to hear from you. You
can email us at Stuff Media, Moom Stuff at iHeartMedia
dot com. You can find us on Twitter at most
stuff Podcasts or on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told
You Things. As always to our super producer Christina, thank you.
Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You
production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts on IHEARTRADIOVI is
the the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen
(51:56):
to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and welcome to stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I've never told you production if I hurried you, and yes,
I am by myself today.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Samantha's got some family stuff going on.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
But I did want to bring back an episode we
did since we've been talking about our thoughts around aging
as we get older, the good and the bad and
what we thought was gonna happen and what actually happened.
So I thought I would bring back this episode we
did about the history of that with women around anti
(00:45):
aging and our thoughts around aging, especially in the West.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So please enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff.
I'm never told your production of iHeartRadio. So I feel
like I have asked you this before, and if so,
you'll have to forgive me listeners. And Samantha, but what
are your thoughts on immortality?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I don't think you've asked me this before because that
is a very broad and general question.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Who knows a lot of conversations.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yes, we have off and on Mike when it comes
to immortality.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
M hmm.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I have no thoughts other than it's not real, So
why are we talking about it? My own self, my
own sad take on death and immortality is that I
assumed I would have been dead before. I would be
dead before fifty five. And I think it's just because
of all the things that I've gone through as a
(01:58):
kid that it didn't make sense, but I would extend
past a certain time. I do have a small fear
of growing old. Actually have a lot of fears in
growing older, and as my body feels like it's slowly
giving out is getting worse those little fears and trying
to figure out what to do just because I don't
want to go to like revert back to being dependent
(02:19):
on someone. And then of course you and I talked
about the fact that if we don't have children, who's
going to look after us, Who's going to care for us?
And what's going to happen if we can't care for ourselves.
So those are my thoughts on life and death and immortality.
I don't want to live forever because that sounds miserable,
(02:39):
especially with some of the things that have happened. Being
a depressive makes me sad to think that I would
have to be depressed with the rest of life life
seeing some of the bad things that have happened. I
am a pessimist, so it doesn't help.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
True. True.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I mean it's interesting because I've always felt that way too.
Of like immortality, he doesn't appeal to me unless people
around me that I cared about were and also that
I was in good like mental and physical condition.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Even then, it just sounds like eventually you'd get pretty bored.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
But I don't know. I mean, I was telling you
the other day, it's like the Star Wars is gonna
be coming out when I die.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
They never stopped. That's true.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
That the care for you also as of late, like
the more we talk about the apocalypse and thinking it
might happen sooner than later, Well, lord, I don't know
if I want to be alive through that.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
That's yeah. Yeah, Now we're starting out really grim with
this one. Yeah, sure are sure are. We're certainly not
the only people who have been talking about this and
thinking about this and as our technology shifts, because this
has been a part of our cultural narrative forever, like
(03:55):
when we talk about any type of creature like vampires,
and that's always like one of the reasons I love
what we do in the Shadows is you get to
see how wonky they are and out of touch they
are with their immortality. But as as technology has advanced,
people are legitimately talking about ways to slow down or
stop aging and or achieve immortality. And I know Jeff
(04:19):
Bezos was just in the news for investing in something
looking into this, and there's been a lot of movies
about it for sure. For anybody who's already like preemptively
angry that of the language I used around.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
That am at like stopping aging? Well, we'll get to that.
We'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Does that get But as we are moving into you
listeners know we love some Halloween, we love the season
of fall and scary movies and spooky things, And as
we're moving into that, this is sort of a lower
key tie in because it's just this concept we've been
(04:56):
talking about for a couple of months now about dying
to be young and our cultural just real fascination and
occupation with being young and where did that come from
and some of the extremes that it has gone to.
So to start out with, we're going to be talking
about media because, as we've talked about before, in in
(05:18):
our popular media and movies and TV, as a woman,
it's a joke, it's a running joke that you're dead
after thirty, like, that's.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Your career is over.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And the average age of a Hollywood Stars female is
thirty four, whereas for a man it is forty six,
So you can already see that's ten.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Your gap some vast difference.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Oh yeah so as in fact, and IMDb study reported
on by Washington Post found that among twenty year old actors,
women get eighty percent of the leading roles. By age thirty,
women only get forty percent of the leading roles, and
past age forty, men claim eighty percent of the leading
roles while women only get twenty percent, and have all
(06:06):
these roles for women to go to those thirty three
and younger and men overall just have way more roles
available to them, and we've seen that constantly.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I think I've told this story before, but I remember
so clearly watching I think I was too young to
be watching it that I was watching Entrapment and I
turned to my friend and I was like, why does
she want to be with Sean Connery? O?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Next question?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
But that being said, I know that people can have
age caps and relationships and it'd be great, but as a child,
it just did not.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I was like, I don't understand this.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
And I think what we're talking about here is not
just that fact, but that it is more acceptable to
see you very young women with older men, and people
are like ooh yeah, absolutely normal to the point that
it reflects real life. Leonardo DiCaprio and everybody kind of
accepts it. Yeah, there's a factor of like, uh, what
after a while, Yeah, but in the actuality, it's like, yeah, okay,
(07:07):
obviously one is more acceptable than a woman doing that, right,
because she is.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And we've talked about that a lot before, about that
double standard of for men it's seen as like, oh,
props to you.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
You've got a young lady interested.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
In you, young lady, whereas for women, it's like she's
preying upon this young man and it must be for
nefarious reasons, right, Yeah, those are generalizations and stereotypes, but
it's definitely more acceptable for an older man to be
with a younger woman.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Than vice versa.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And so this whole, like all these ideas around women
in age in Hollywood, has been a topic of conversation,
especially among female celebrities.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Who's spoken out about this.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Maggie Smith, Charlie's Thereon, Sarah Tiska Parker, Helen Miira, and
Mal Street, Kate Blinchett, so many mostly white women in
this context, but a lot of it is happening.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Like now and within recent years.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
It's pretty new in terms of how many women have
spoken up about it. And I did want to give
some brief like examples that were just top of mine
for me, because this is an idea that we see
so often, And one is from Black Swan, which I
watched recently, where Wanona Writer is this ballet dancer who's
(08:25):
been like head of the ballet. She's made a lot
of money for this troop, this huge New York troop,
but then all the other ballet dancers are kind of
talking about her behind her back and saying like, oh,
she's dead, like she's a dancing corpse.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Like she's so old.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
And then Winona Writer's character obviously being upset about this
and furious that she's given so much of herself to
this company, and then they just kind of unceremoniously to
her away when she gets older and replace her with
Natalie Portman. And even in terms of like the romance
kind of dynamic between the male leader of the ballet
(09:04):
troupe and Anona writer, and then Natalie Portman. That always
stuck with me. And Natalie Portman's character has to see
where she's like, oh, poor Beth, like obviously feeling sympathy
and like seeing that happen with her mom when she
got pregnant, and feeling like I one day I will
be thrown away too. But yeah, that just always stuck
with me because it's like, like I said, it is.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
A running joke. We all know this joke and this idea.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
And there are certain aspects that I get, like it's
weird because I understand that, you know, younger people in
general can do more athletic things I don't know, but
still like, that's really terrible to just be like, well,
you're done and you'll never work again.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
So another example I've never actually seen black Swana need
to go back to it. But another example would be,
of course, one of our episodes First Wives Club. I
mean that is the ultimate story of of being replaced
by younger women. As each one of the characters show,
whether it's Sarah Jessica Parker's character who is in competition
(10:09):
with Bette Midler, or even the therapist with Diane Keaton's character,
you know who's gets ran over her, and then you've
got the Goldie Hahn character, which she's replaced by the
sixteen year old actress because she I think she's in
her thirties.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, in this I'm pretty sure she comments directly on
what we're talking about and.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Talking about being replaced and to the point that she
plays the hag mother who dies essentially an upcoming movie
and her thinking she's coming in for the younger character
and being like, whoop's just kidding, and so she retires
out of film to go on to Broadway because it's
more acceptable for mature women to be a part of Essentially, Yeah,
there are so many things in that storyline on it
(10:53):
all together, just talking about how women are set to
pasture at a certain age as if they are no
longer of any purpose. And we think about that with
like menopause again, like whether or not we're able to
breed essentially, to put it very bluntly, and or what
our value is. And when it comes to Hollywood, I'm
sure and we have seen it being even harsher narratives.
(11:15):
But you know, in everyday life people talk about that too,
whether it's the cliche of being left for a younger
women and or having to compete with younger women for
career or any of those statuses. You know, it's interesting
to see. But this movie was definitely one of those like, hey,
in your face, this is what's happening, right comment.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Right, yeah, and we're gon we're gonna break in, breakdown
some of that a bit more later about kind of
this pressure to be invisible as you get older as
a woman. And then I was thinking about this Amazon
movie called Neon Demon, which I don't know if you've
seen that.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
I have not.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Okay, well, it was a very strange film, but it
kind of That's why every time I think of it,
I feel like it's some fever dream that I had.
But it's about like models in Hollywood, And is it
el Fanning or Ellie Fanning?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
El Fanning, I don't know, you know who I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
She comes into this young model into this world and
there's a lot of this movie's very up and down
and bumpy, but there was interesting commentary on like the
power of beauty and youth for women. And she says
something about like you know what the power she feels
when she walks into her room and everyone is looking
at her and feeling jealous of her. Of course, these
(12:34):
other models that have been in the game longer than
her don't like that, so they end up spoilers, I
guess how old is This movie's pretty old. They end
up killing her and eating pieces of her body to
try to get her youth, including an eyeball.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
It was real gruesome.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Well okay then, but yeah, that was just I did
not expect that turn, for one, But yeah, it was
another kind of example of this this pressure to feel
young and kind of that diminishing value of like they
were willing to murder this person to feel like they
(13:09):
were young and had in their minds more power. And
then on top of that, songs. We've been right singing
these songs.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
And I will say so for the first song you
picked out, because as you were and I were talking
about this episode, I told you in my head, I
can't stop singing forever young. Yeah. Also, that might makes
me go back to a thirty Rock episode in which
Jenna is being She has that same ecedence of going
to a show thinking she's about to be cast as
(13:39):
a teenager, when probably she's cast as the dying mother
once again, and she actually says in the line I
have to die now I'm thirty six, like she's essentially
saying that, but because she's so in such shock and
so sad about it that she's taping up her face
singing forever young and brother of Marror, trying to make
herself look younger because you in that crisis. But that
(14:01):
is where both of those things come into mind.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yes, forever Young has been sick in my head too,
would you know that? Good? I always thought of that
as being like in your heart, forever young, but what
do I know? And then for me, are You Old Enough?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Which is a very creepy song, which is about this
guy basically saying like are you old enough to have
sex with?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
But that was recently featured in Willington Paranormal and it
has been stuck in my head. But there's I mean,
there's so many songs about that and right, we're gonna awesome, yes, yes,
and kind of like a lot of times that it
is dudes like trying to get young girls. And there
are plenty of songs about you know that romanticized youth,
(14:45):
and we're gonna look into that as well. But yeah,
that it's very present and a lot of our media.
I was also thinking about books like The Portrait of
Dorian Gray, which isn't women but kind of again shows
this like real historical preoccupation we've had with youth, or
the old Hag feeding on the young maiden trop which
is in Snow White, and pretty much.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Every fairy tale that features an older woman and.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
A younger woman try to take that youth.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yes, which is another way women have been pitted against
each other in our media.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
But also if you move out of that.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Like it's a compliment to say you look so much younger,
and it's one of those kind of problematic compliments where
what are you really saying and what are we holding up.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
With a compliment like that.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
There's this whole idea of like trying to get away
with it or looking you know, younger. And I was
thinking about this too in terms of I haven't been
(15:51):
shopping in a mall in a very long time, but
I mean certainly within the past couple of years. I
always I still go to the junior sect, and it's
because I feel like they're clothes, they are cuter, and
if you go into like the women's section, it's all
like business clothes.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Right, I'm not gonna lie. I've now jumped away from
the junior's clothing because their size no longer makes sense
to me. Mmmm, now that is true, So I'm gonna
go over here. I think that's why I stay way
from things like the mall, where you have departments who
are very like ages in that they separate it like that.
(16:28):
H places like Target where they do have the junior sections.
I've seen it, but the women's section and the junior
section are similar enough that it's like, Okay, there's not
really different variations to this. I'm good with it. And
typically it's just all like, hey, here's this one sweater.
It was like Ponchos season of the Ponchos. So I'm
definitely leaning into quote unquote my age clothing in that
(16:52):
I'm just rather but I've always dressed like this. There's
nothing in my wardrobes, even being younger, that really said
this is a juniors off of it. Like I'd never
really wore like jeans, I had holes in it. I'd
have one accident, lay tripped and fell, and I you know,
like that's why, sure, But like it was never my
(17:14):
thing because I was always so self conscious that I
wanted to mute it down as much as possible, so
just as playing as playing can be is my my
go to and I still am that way to this day.
And again, I love cardigans and ponchos and I feel
like that's definitely like older leaning and I'm like, I'm.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Cool with that.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I will forever wear that. This is my this is
who I am.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I do think there's I don't
want to make it sound like there aren't cute clothes
for women who are not juniors like older, right, there are,
but I feel like in a traditional mall department store setting,
it's like, oh these are it's again like the breakdown
of the Badonna and the Horror almost where it's like, oh,
junior section, cuter, cuter things, maybe some cleavage going on,
(17:56):
and then like business suits, yeah, or.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
You have the dresses that has no body shape and
it's somehow doubled up to something else and you're like
what is this say, because yeah, even in shoes, I
do that like this is obviously a younger kid. Get
to stick with this, you know, not this, And it's
kind of like these are shoes I don't.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Right, Yeah, And that's something I know a lot of
my friends and I have joked about because I'm really
young at heart, as they say, and I feel like
I get judged for like in childish things and a
lot of times I'll end up in like the boys
section because they have like superhero shirts are Star Wars shirts, and.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
That's what I like.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
But then there's this whole idea of like age appropriate clothing,
which we could break down in more seriously, but in
terms of what we're talking about now, it's like you
reach an age and that's just you have to wear, yeah,
a formless right blanket almost you know what.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Those give me my moumou.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
I've got my Star warso you.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Know, ill of a good poncho?
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I do?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Do? I not?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
There's nothing wrong with it, but I think we need
more options and we need to investigate.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
No. When it comes to also, it's kind of the
expense and who gets what is seen as a stylish
and we also know that we see that as in
sizes too, like when we talk about celebrities trying to
find really nice, fancy things and being told we're not
going to give you this, and we're not going to
sponsor you this. We don't want you to wear this
type of thing. And we see that agism is a
(19:32):
complete thing where we saw Millie Bobby Brown got like
ripped apart because they were like you wearing clothesess too
old for you. And it's kind of like, I don't understand.
She's wearing a cute suit outfit. Yeah she's sixteen, but
she's pulling it off and she's coming to a fancy event.
M what's what's the problem and her ripped for that.
(19:52):
It's not like it was sexy and even at that,
like we need to talk about that standard dress co
standard outside of this anyway, But I had to say,
is why can't she And then having older women who
were wearing a little bit tighter clothes and showing a
few more things and be like that's that's too sexy.
You're a mom, You're like, well does that mean?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, it's just another instance of policing women's bodies and
what they wear.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
And like we'll take we being society at large, not me.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
But personally, but any opportunity to tear a woman down
right and make her feel bad about her body. But yeah,
like going back to you know that whole quote of
like looking good for your age, which is I think
also problematic in terms of behind your back, they might
be saying she's too old for that or whatever. You know,
(20:42):
never ask a woman her age, which really implies that
it's shameful and embarrassing to get older. And then, yeah,
it was just kind of as you were talking, I
was kind of thinking about how clothing cycles, so like
what people might have been wearing in the eighties is
now popular nineties amone younger people, and so it's kind
of like silly that will police people for this, But
(21:05):
when when the cycle comes back now, it's cool when
young people are right.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Really kept some of my clothes because it has I'm like,
I had that outfit, like I've picked out specifically, I
wore that in junior high school, in middle school. Cool. Cool, cool. Yeah,
And I think one of the big things you were
talking about, you know, being complimented. I tell my age. Obviously,
I'm very fit forward. Everyone knows my age. I'm turning
forty one soon, and it's kind of like, oh god,
(21:32):
I'm turning forty forty one. Forties is a huge number.
And then comparing myself and this is really bad on
me and my own perspective as well as my own
biases is like do I look like that forty one
year old? Because I don't. I don't want to look
like that like that. There's levels of like I need
to look younger and I want to tell people my
age so they better have a right reaction, like in
(21:53):
my head, they're going to be shocked or disbelieve because
as the way that has the other today they're like, okay,
I'm like sun and I just kind of walk away.
But there is that level as I'm getting older, like
but I don't look like that forty one year older, right,
because I still have the image of my mother being
forty something when I was so young, and now I'm like, yeah,
(22:14):
I look like my mother. Obviously I don't because she's
very white and I'm not. There's very big differences, but
the aging level of like wow, it's weird.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, and I think that kind of shit it is.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I think I think that line of thinking is really
it is encouraged by our media because I feel like
I see magazine headlines like that all the time.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Like how did she accomplish this? Look? She looks so young?
Speaker 2 (22:40):
And right, I know, like you know list thirty under
thirty when I was researching this, this came up a
lot of like that's also kind of a troublesome line
of thinking.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
But we do see it.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
We see it, and it usually it's trying to sell
something where it's like, how did she do it with
this retinall cream?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Of course, Uh, it's the.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Whole thing, and you know, going back to it is
a whole conversation about how we look at youth and
how we treasure that and long for it. Sometimes I
don't want I wish there's a part of me we're like, man,
I do wish that I was able to enjoy my
youth in that I have so much more confidence now
(23:26):
than I did ten fifteen, even five years ago, honestly,
not really like ten fifteen years ago, and really wishing
that I could have gone back to be like, hey, right,
it's okay, enjoy being you instead of constantly being so
self conscious that you can't you feel awkward in any situation.
And that's not a way to enjoy life. That's the
(23:46):
only part in that. But yeah, in the West, the
aging is often seen as something shameful and to be
hidden away and fought against instead of being respected, which
I'm like let's get back to that. Although to be fair,
some of the boomers have not shown that level of right.
I think whish we could talk about that later. But
(24:07):
like in general, respecting age versus uh, yeah, experience being
invisible because we're no longer relevant. I say, we our
elderly are often invisible to us. And yeah, in the US,
specifically in this culture, it's kind of gross. Yeah, but
we don't respect. Of course, respect is earned in that,
(24:31):
but there's just that level of like, huh, where was that? Yeah,
but of like, we want to age. That means we've
come through life okay, ish, we've survived it. And again
we've long discussed the link between traditional beauty for women
and power. That's a whole big conversation.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Looking young, especially when it comes to women, is a
big business. So many products promising to do away with
any signs of age. You can get rid of your wrinkles,
erase gray hairs, get dinner and look younger. Get dimples
that will make you look young too, like almost everything.
When we did our episode of Ridiculous History where we
were talking about beauty trends, kind of ridiculous beauty trends
(25:25):
or dangerous beauty trends of history.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Almost all of them were about looking younger.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Right, Oh yeah, absolutely, we're looking wider both of those things.
And some numbers for you, because you know we love
some numbers up in here. As of twenty eleven, Americans
spent about ten point four billion dollars on cosmetic surgery.
The anti aging industry is believed to be worth one
hundred and forty billion dollars. And then a twenty eighteen
(25:53):
study found that over fifty percent of women aged eighteen
to twenty four surveyed agreed that an anti wrinkle treatment
was essential to their beauty regimen. I'm like, I don't
think I have any of those. I'm trying to think
about it. Mine was all about acting because I still
get them. I got one big name of pimple right here.
I'm like, I'm supposed to be forty. This is not
(26:17):
supposed to be an issue anymore.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
It's okay.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
And this was up from twenty percent who said the
same thing in twenty twelve, and searches for retinal I
believed anti aging ingredient doubled in twenty twenty. Not gonna
lie kind of use that for my under eyes because
I was like whoa, I like tired.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah, I've definitely tried products for my under eyes. It's
mine are very dark and baggy, and that is because
I don't sleep very well, among other things. And yes,
just disclaimer, we're not really coming out against any of
these things per se, but more against the societal pressure
that makes people, and in this context mostly women feel
(26:59):
like they have to do these things that it has
to do with their worth. And I think there's a
lot of fear around it, like every day your skin
is getting worse. I saw this, I think it must
have been in two thousand and one and two thousand
and two interview with oh, what's her name? Naomi Watts,
and she was saying, you know my skin, the way
(27:21):
I keep it this way is I put on sunscreen
every day and ever since then, I put on sunscreen
alce every day on my face. But that was like
the power of it, because I was like, what if
if if I mess it up now, it'll be too
late later, right, And yeah, this does start at a
young age, because I must have been like, I don't know,
fourteen thirteen or fourteen when I saw that interview, and
I remember when I was in high school. This really
(27:43):
traditionally pretty girl who's like a year older than me.
She was talking about her anti wrinkle regimend that she
was doing, and I was I looked at her, like,
oh my gosh, am I supposed to be doing that already.
And a lot of anti rinkle commercials do use young
women that definitely don't have wrinkles anywhere if they do
their airbrushed out or like, not that.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Many, right, and I find this interesting. I think the
other big problem is not we're not saying that these
things are awful or that you know, the devil or anything.
What we're saying is we see this as a marketing
racket that is completely aimed at women. And if this
is truly for their benefit, women's benefit, why the hell
is this so damn expensive. That's the other part. I'm like,
(28:26):
what is happening? And then the links and the way
we're ruining the environment to get to some of those
things also really really problematic, And it's all about that capitalism. Yeah,
and we know this, and I think that's part of
the problem. Is it's not so bad to want to
try things that are good for your skin or what
you know, want to do things preventatively whatever, and being
(28:47):
self conscious and making you feel good about yourself, that's
one thing, but doing it at what costs is the
conversation as well as who is benefiting it and why
are we looking closer at that?
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:01):
And of course we make fun of older women who
do it too, that they're pathetic and not fooling anyone,
despite the fact that we live in a society that
penalizes age and our further penalizing women for trying to
fit into that society that was created to go against
right essentially, so trying to fit into that narrative, trying
(29:22):
to make it a situation or having you know, the
audacity to change something that they don't really find uplifting
for themselves. That's a whole other conversation too. Why can't
we let it be?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, and I think this has been a big It's
been something people have been discussing a lot around women
and cosmetic surgery and all of this stuff we're talking
about we could unpack further in other episodes. But how
like we're saying the joke is you're dead at thirty,
like the median age is thirty three or whatever, And
then yet we make fun of actresses who get cosmetic
(29:55):
surgery to look younger when that's their career and their job.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
It is a problem. It's a problem that that's true.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
But I think it's very telling that we are making
fun of people who are trying to not lose their
job essentially in a really right sexist, patriarchal agist system.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Right, and also just knowing that for a lot, and
we could talk about the Korean beauty standards, which is
just which is a whole different conversation in itself, that
it happens starts at a very young age and being
molded essentially into what is thought of as the perfect body,
the perfect face, the perfect skin tone, like all of
(30:38):
these things. It's such an oh yeah, overwhelming sense of
like what what are we supposed to be doing? And
for those who aren't within that narrative, within that frame
of thinking and or seeing looking, what happens to those
people completely dismissed and I'm not seen?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, Yeah, it's yeah, Like we said, it starts at
such a young age and you really get inundated with
it and internalize it.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
I know there's been studies that found by like the
age of four, for.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Young girls, they're like wrinkles are bad, age is bad,
and a lot of other troubling beauty standards as well,
just so young.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
We pick up on it.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
And like going back to your point when it comes
to this whole conversation of yeah, we want women to
do what they want to look to feel good about
themselves or something they might just enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
It's like when we talked about in taking.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Self care, you know, spat days, that might really be
your thing, but there is a financial and time cost.
And also this whole what we're really talking about is
the demonizing of age and particularly for women. And also yeah,
it's just that pressure, the pressure to do it. Like
if you want to do it, you know, good for you,
(31:54):
but it's I think a lot of us feel like
we have to do it, and there is kind of
like a fear base decision of oh no, my value
is going down.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I need to save up money and.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Go get this and go do this, and just feeling
bad about yourself, which I hate, right right, Yeah, And
then when we look at sexual assault and grooming, there
are so many instances, like we were talking about earlier,
of older famous men grooming younger often underage young women,
and there are even pieces of media in.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
All kinds of media directly about that whole thing.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Several recent studies have looked into why growing numbers of
young women are seeking cosmetic surgeries, with one of the
dominant theories being asked to do with social media filters.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
So basically, you.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Want to look as airbrushed as your social media filter looks.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
You want to match that.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
But also obviously the constant bombardment of messaging in our media.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Again, we can unpack all of the stuff and.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, it's definitely grown. Maybe also accessibility has grown. That
needs to be part of that conversation too, but it's
always been there. If you think about the women who
literally went through plastic surgery to look like Barbie, and
that was before social media. She was already famous because
that was her whole stint. And then there's been several
(33:14):
more that follows suit and they're big influencers. And that's
kind of that other conversation is the level of what
we look at as who are influencers, and it's typically
everything about looks. So it seems to me, especially when
it comes to women are non binary, and it's one
thing to love makeup and do makeup. That's gorgeous. I
really wish people could teach me how to do it well,
(33:36):
because I'm not one of those people do it well.
My niece is really good at it. She's actually a
makeup artist. I'm like, go ahead, do your things. I
don't know what this means, right, and maybe I need
your help. But that's something different than that. That's the
influence and trying to get that perfect standard. And yeah,
some of these we need to come back to. Annie.
Is the fact that a lot of these filters are
(33:58):
not made for women of color. Yeah, many times that
I've put it on my face and it did nothing.
I was like, what is this? And the fact of
the matter is because it's not for women of color
and it doesn't do which is probably a good thing. Honestly,
I don't know. It looks yeah, I don't know. There's
many times where I did the filter, I was like
why why, It's probably a good thing, But many times
(34:21):
there was nothing. I was like, oh, I'm too brown
for this. Interesting I compack to that. So data from
Okay Cupids suggests, not surprisingly, that men seek out slightly
younger women when they made the first time women slightly older.
But if men remarried, they seek out women half their age.
(34:43):
The rating theory for why is this is how men
and women have been socialized historically, with women more concerned
about social status, men more concerned with indicators of fertility.
I wonder, though, I have to go back, because we've
talked about this a little bit. Every time I ever
been on a site, most of the men, if they
(35:03):
had an age preference, if would always do their own
age as the cap and younger.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
HM.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
So if the man was thirty five, it would be
thirty five to twenty four, like I've seen that. And
there'd be several men who would do not even to
the As they were getting older, the age would stay
the same. So they might be thirty eight, but their
cap for twenty four to thirty five. And I'm kind
of like, you're a thirty eight year old man, you
want to they have twenty four year old? Is what
(35:33):
is happening? So I did find that a lot like
if it was specific, it was much younger typically, and
I found that very interesting. So I find this like,
I feel like that's underwhelming of a report.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Well, you know, it was only a couple of thousand
of people. And also yeah, I mean it's hard to
I would imagine the data pool. It's probably pretty significant,
but not too significant when it comes to remarrying and
things like that. But it was just interesting because he
the founder, wanted to look more into this and that's
(36:09):
sort of the general pattern that he saw.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
But yeah, be interested to find out more.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
In twenty nineteen, the US Food and Drug Administration had
to release a statement advising against older people injecting themselves
with the plasma of younger people, the so called vampire treatment.
Soon after the FDA's statement, California startup Ambrosia Health began
offering one leader of quote youth blood for eight thousand
dollars and two leaders for twelve thousand dollars, and several
(36:53):
companies have popped up around blood and use in this
idea of like it's not always framed as it will
make you younger, but it'supposed to like revitalize your body inside.
And yeah, we talked about the vampire facial as well.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Right, I feel like if you got like just blood,
that's going to start a lot of flowing in your system,
and typically not necessarily because you're healthier, but because of
like the flow the blood flow, which we know does
have a little to do with like whether or not
you are pale, you know, all of that. I feel
like that whole narrative is misleading. But an you want
(37:27):
to go in, we'll buy two for one, two for
the cheaper price.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
That's some weird like blood bond before betweens.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Look at two bags. It's cheaper to get two, obviously,
look at it.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
There we go, There we go.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I have actually written a horror story about this very thing.
When it happened, I remember this new story and I was.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Like, oh, it haped.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Speaking of horror stories, QAnon has gotten in on this too.
Some followers of q and on believe that members of
the Hollywood elite take a psychedelic drug manufactured from the
fear of children called adrenochrome, and they also think that
mosters eate the Pixar film is essentially a Fortian slip,
that that's what like kind of happens, and Hollywood accidentally
(38:10):
told on themselves. So the story goes that this chemical
is extracted from the pituitary gland of tortured children. From
what I can tell, the actual adrenochrome is fairly easily
obtained chemical. I don't know that it's like legal, but
it's not too hard to get.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Not that it's like it doesn't matter, they're not going
to listen to me. But obviously, oh, I know.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
They went as far as the saying that, yeah, pedophiles,
that eight children and that has something to do with
that as well like keeping youth, as well as a
satanic ritual.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
Right right, ye okon you are you are something else anyway,
So there has been some pushback against these narratives recently.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
In twenty seventeen, Helen mary And appeared on the cover
of a Loure magazine where she was called the hero
we need and when it comes to ending the anti
aging industry. That same article got a lot of flack
for its promise to use different terms of things like
anti aging, anti wrinkle, drawing criticism that it was just
(39:18):
repackaging the same stereotypes. Yeah, it was this whole thing.
It's kind of hard where you're like, I think this
is where we have a hard time with feminism as
well women, not because we don't think it exists and
we know it's necessary, but the fact that we have
to highlight it in such a way that it becomes
a typical and it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be like this,
(39:40):
should just let it be. The opposite should be happening
where we don't have to worry about aging instead of highlighting, Look,
she looks so young and forever young because she's successful.
Now it's like we should change that and make that
a norm instead of trying to highlight it being unusual.
Can we do that same thing with feminist stuff, like
we shouldn't be highlighting someone because they're doing well as
(40:00):
a woman, but we have to in order for any
recognition or any equity to be had. And it's irritating. Yeah,
oh yeah, But whatever the case, people are finally getting
tired of all of this. Yay us included. Twenty twelve
worldwide study found that sixty three percent of respondents believe
(40:21):
that our cultural preoccupation with youth have gone too far.
And yeah, I think we just started to understand that
as all of the regimens and the sunderies and the
money that we could spend and the lies that are happening,
and the influencers that keep spouting miracle drug.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yeah yeah, And there are a lot of reasons behind
our cultural preoccupation with you. Some of which we've already
talked about, and particularly in this context in the West,
one is yep, money capitalism. Young people are believed to be,
not always accurately, actually the people who spend more time
on screens and thus are exposed to more ads. Because
of that, ads often are more geared towards younger people
(41:03):
and feature younger people, which internal leads to this idea
that youth is the norm and what we should all
strive for. We should all want to be these beautiful
young people we're seeing in ads because they're cool and
there's something to aspire to. Again, generalizations, because most ads
I see these days are just cringey, but you know
(41:23):
that's the idea. They represent people who are connected and
living life to the fullest. People aged eighteen to thirty
have long been believed to have the most disposable income,
but again at twenty twelve study found that people over
fifty accounted for over forty seven percent of household spending.
And that's been an interesting conversation to play out as
well of.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Just like how that these kids are just coming out
of college, how do they have disposable advice?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
I think it's just a really false It kind of
goes back to this conversation where we're there's all this
hand ringing over like the millennials aren't buying houses and
owning cars anymore, and we're like, yeah, because we are
not the same generation and we don't have who can't
get jobs, we can't get like you're well paying jobs,
Like it's different. But I think they're basing it off
of how it was and it's a mistake and it's
(42:09):
not the same anymore.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Interesting. I'm bafful because I'm like, I didn't get a
living wage, truly living wage until yeah, I had three
jobs and that was just four years ago.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah. No, I think it's really misinformed.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
I think it's based off of how it was with
like boomers who had disposable income, right, but it's not.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
Yeah, So another reason our narratives around age, especially for women,
as something humiliating in chambel, something to fight against lest Yeah,
we needed we needed to fight.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah for that, we need to fight to change it.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Well, let's just have when you think of because companies
and capitalism is so good at doing this and adapting. Right,
So we're like, oh, we don't like anti aging, quit
saying that in your ads and they're like okay, and
so now they're using all these words like combat or
defy or implying that your fight against this thing, which
thereby implies that it is bad.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Another factor is long held belief that youth is linked
to fertility and health of women, and thus a young person,
particularly a woman, is a more desirable partner.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
And we've talked about that a lot.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
This very unfortunate, unfortunate pressure for young women like our
sexual desirability, particularly when comes to the male gaze, is
also the value and youth is usually almost always tied
into that. A study of dating sites conducted by sociologists
at the University of Michigan found that a woman's desirability
(43:40):
to other website users began to decline after age eighteen,
whereas a man's desirability as a potential date could peak
as late as forty five, which is just upsetting.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
That's eighteen.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Yeah, yeah, this makes me want to like flip the
table over. What eight the hill? So in twenty eleven,
study found that men reported feeling old at fifty eight
for women, oh yeah, twenty nine.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
I always talk about I make a joke about feeling
older it's typically because my friend groups, I'm the older
one of the friend group, so I always tease about
the fact that I'm old. I don't know if I
started feeling really old until recently when my hips started hurting,
which I was running and my hip started hurting around
thirty five, and I was like, oh God, what's happening?
(44:34):
And my back went out, and I was like, Yep,
there it is.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
I think it's an interesting jextaposition with conversations that you
and I have had. Whereas I don't necessarily feel old,
but man, am I'm already preparing for what if I
slip in the shower? Like I'm already yeah, imagining these
scenarios and what am I going to do? Which is
I mean that is also a big part of what
we're talking about too, right. We've talked about that a
(44:59):
little lot of this fear of ending up as the
Heaven forbid, the spinster who has an no one who's
going to care for her, and she's going to die alone,
dial alone.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
So that's the threaten it.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yep, it is, And we've talked about that recently.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
And we're not going to go into too much history
because we did talk about it, and we have talked
about it in several things. If you didn't listen to
our Ridiculous History episode, you can hear us go into
more examples of the history of women trying to usually
capture beauty and youth through these very dangerous.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
And painful looking things.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Often, but yes, there are so many instances throughout history
of people and especially women going to extreme measures to
stay young, whether it's Cleopatra bathing in the milk of animals,
Elizabeth Bathrie allegedly bathing in the blood of virgins, Medieval
and Victorian practices of putting slices of meat or putting
some wine on the face in hopes of minimizing the
(45:53):
appearance of wrinkles. In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries,
ads around skin creams were almost entirely targeted towards women,
with these messages that looking young was the only way
that they could attract men. And here are some examples
of a ad copy from this time, one claiming that
quote middle aged skin, which could set in as young
as twenty two, meant that women had quote empty date
(46:15):
books or a wife who quote loses love. There was
an ad that featured to Belieguered Cupid crying I give
up a nineteen twenty six add read poor Lois, see
how old she's growing? Or this ad that asked is
it the greatest crisis of a woman's emotional life? The
sudden merciless message from a mirror's crystal dips you are
(46:38):
fading just a bit.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Geez.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
That feels like a threat. How dare you? Yes, don't
throw me?
Speaker 2 (46:46):
And this is also like, I mean, no surprise, but
depending on the life you've had and career options you've
had in environment you grew up in, your skin might
just get a little rougher around the edges. This is right,
I have access genetics. There's all kinds of things not
necessarily in your control or at all in your control.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
And this is just terrible.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Again, I feel that's a threat. So as these days
have shifted gears to sound yes, more modern, moving from
shaming language to traditionally empowering language like defy or combat
as you had just said. And then there's also the
health based jargon for you, like vitality, radiance or that
glow which I told recently that I was glowing. I
(47:31):
was like, yeah, I'm just really oily.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Thanks for passing, and.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
There's a lot of emphasis on natural and the scientific
sounding terms, which if you haven't noticed, we don't have
many of those ads that we boys because any is
like hell na and I definitely agree. And in two
thousand and seven, Dove even debuted a pro age line
because we're pro age. In twenty eighteen, a Neutrogena ran
an ad featuring Carrie Washington, Nicole Kidman, and Jennifer Garner,
(48:00):
then all over forty with a tagline We're not anti aging,
We're anti wrinkles.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
I feel like that's the same thing, in't that?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Well, that's That's kind of this whole thing we've been
talking about, is we're these companies are so good at this.
They're repackaging the same thing with different language, but it's
still the same thing.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
What's celebrity level of examples.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Rather occasionally these companies get fined for making unsubstantiated claims
like boosting genes. If you'll notice the language in these
the ad copy is usually quite vague. And I only
did a precursor research on this, but I'm fairly certain
nothing has None of this has been proven to work.
(48:42):
All it does, like a lot of times they'll say,
might minimize the appearance of wrinkles or something like that,
but yeah, you might want to keep an eye out
for that. We've also got things like, yes, the vampire
facial leeches and placenta treatments that celebrities are singing the
praises of, like some of the sounds what I was reading,
I was like, surely this is the sixteen hundreds ors
of Nope, it is modern day. So this has just
(49:03):
been a through line through our history. And also like
it is fascinating kind of what's been happening with some
of these women celebrities who have been releasing like that
non edited picture, which is also we've talked about that
in the past episode, but it was a couple of
years ago, so we might want to revisit it.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
That can be problematic as well.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
It's tricky, it's yeah, but it's interesting, interesting stuff happening here.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Well, all of this rebranding around anti age was mostly
due to the fact that anti aging was already on
the way out. From twenty ten to twenty fifteen, profits
in that sector of fill from two point two billion
dollars to one point nine billion dollars. So yeah, I
do hope it decreases. I really do.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
I mean again, if it's something that makes you feel
good and you like it, like I have plenty of
skin products that just make my skin feel nice, right,
and I love a good just washing of the face,
to be honest, It's surprising how nice that can feel.
But yeah, this like language and rhetoric around demonizing aging
and women especially who are aging any signs of it,
(50:14):
that's not healthy and that we need to change that.
We need to work to change that.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Right, And anything that's too gimmicky and over the top
versus the things that, yeah, again make you feel good
about yourself, that's great. If that's something that you enjoy
and feel good, then wonderful. But to be obsessive and
lose a lot of money and doing all these things
that really causes you more harm, that's that's a different
question in itself, and I think that that's definitely what
(50:40):
we're talking about and understanding, Like aging is not a
bad thing, Surviving is incredible. Good job you did it,
which is kind of how I celebrate. I get depressed
around my birthday. I've been talking a lot about depression lately,
mainly because it has a whole other connotation with trauma,
and that has something to do with the holidays which
happened around the season, and I have a whole lot
of life feelings on that. But what I do celebrate
(51:04):
the reason I don't hide my ages because I'm like, yeah,
I did it. Yeah, I didn't think I could make it.
I'm made it to forty one, right, did it? Yes?
Speaker 1 (51:13):
So we're happy that you did many more returns.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
But that's another thing I was thinking about the other day,
is I just it's not a great way to live
if every day you're like you think your value is
getting less lass. No, it's not a great way to
go go about life.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
Who anyway, we had a lot to say about this,
Yes we did well. Listeners.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
As always, we would love to hear from you. You
can email us at Stuff Media, Moom Stuff at iHeartMedia
dot com. You can find us on Twitter at most
stuff Podcasts or on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told
You Things. As always to our super producer Christina, thank you.
Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You
production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts on IHEARTRADIOVI is
the the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen
(51:56):
to your favorite shows.
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