October 28, 2023 • 47 mins
For centuries, girls and women have used food on Halloween to divine any clues about the identity of their future spouse. Anney and Samantha bite into past Halloween soothsaying traditions like snap-apple and nut-crack night. We also take a quick look at gender differences in costuming and why they matter in this classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stephane.
Never told you a protection of iHeartRadio, and today we are.
It is the weekend before Halloween. Because we've been traveling
a lot lately.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I can't speak for Samantha, but my plans are to
carve a pumpkin and watch a lot of horror movies.
I do have one more haunted house that I'm doing
a Monday, but that's it.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
That's all day officially the day before Halloween. Then huh, yes,
it's gonna be crowded. Y'all wanna have fun?
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Yeah, we're gonna.
Speaker 5 (00:40):
I do not want to go.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
No, I figured you didn't, so I hope you're not offended.
I didn't ask you because I feel like I know
you well enough to.
Speaker 5 (00:48):
Know every you do it.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
I'm like, you have fun, bye, Yes, I will invite
me one you and I was like no.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
That's when I was like never.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, yeah, And I do love I love Halloween.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
I have all of my like, I have my pumpkin.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm gonna carve it, as I said, this weekend, and
I've got my pumpkin candles.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
I like the vibe of it that I am tired.
I'm tired.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I've been trampling a lot, and I'm just gonna stay in.
But one of the things I think about a lot
with Halloween are foods. I think a lot about kind
of like fall foods, autumnal foods, if you will. And
we did this episode a while back about kind of
these old traditions around food and Halloween, like using an
(01:35):
apple to predict your future or something like that. And
as I have been speed watching all of my horror movies,
I have seen that in a lot of a lot
of them. But also in this one, we talk about
gender differences in costumes. And I just recently saw us
side by sight, and it wasn't even about gender differences
(01:59):
in costumes, just a side by side of two costumes
of the same thing, and the costume Beer Girls was
much more sexualized. So this is still going going strong.
But yeah, we hope that you have a fun, safe weekend,
whatever you celebrate or don't celebrate, And we would love
(02:20):
to hear about any of your traditions, any of your costumes.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Oh my gosh, yes, that.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Would be amazing. But in the meantime, please enjoy this
classic episode. Hey, this is Annie.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
And Samantha, I know, come to stuff I've never told
you production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So, Samantha, the other day, I was talking about this
old game I used to play that I'll get into
you more in a second, but it was a predictive game,
right of learning who your husband are, getting a clue
who your future husband would be.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
And you had no idea what I was talking about.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Still don't.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Have you.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I mean, did you do anything like that, like where
you were trying to figure out any clues about who
your future partner would be.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
I mean we played the match game and then the
little uh fortune teller.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Game or the Fortune Teller. Yeah, yeah, those games.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
But I have never had a real tradition. I know that
there is one for Marti Gras. Is it a Martini
Gras cake where they have a baby, a ring and
something else in a cake? And if you find that
then those are supposed to be significant of sorts. Those
are the only things that I know, and I don't
know if that's Marti Gras.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Is it Marti Gras?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Marti Gras has the baby cake? I believe there is
a version that has like a a ring or something.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
I know we did it at a wet like a shower,
and I thought it was really weird because I've never
seen that. And that was a college friend.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Who they did this for at a bridal shower. Bridal
ludgeonals looking around like what so I was so confused.
So obviously I don't know these traditions very well.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Well, you are in for Age s Reach just all
the time for Halloween. Uh, yeah, it is interesting.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I believe I've heard of that cake thing you're talking
about too, and I believe it's supposed to predict who's
getting married next. Okay, yes, similar to catching the bouquet
at a wedding, which is hilarious for me because I'm
very competitive and I've like always caught it. Oh, I
have no interest in getting married. Oh I'm so competitive.
I'm like the person that's like bending now.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Here we go and then all these dudes will come
up to you afterwards and they're like congratulations, and you're like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I caught it, clearly not what they're talking about.
Speaker 5 (04:52):
Oh that's MS king cakes, king.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Cakes, kink.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah yeah, I mean normally in my experience, kin cake
doesn't have it is a Marty grat cake, but it
doesn't have the ring but yes, I think, and.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
So baby, right, James, it's a baby. Yeah, okay, but yes.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Since Halloween is right around the corner as we're recording
this and as you listen to it, if you listen
to it right when it comes out, we wanted to
dig into some Halloween traditions that involve women and some
more modern takes on these traditions or some more modern
things that are going on, including games and costumes.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
And one of them is.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
This sort of food tradition of like a food predicting
who you're going to marry. And it is one thing
that I've been really curious about this idea, and especially
around Halloween, of these traditions around women eating or using
certain food so that they can figure out something about
their future spouse, and it's usually a husband.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
It's very heteronormative.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
And this is something that I come across surprisingly regularly
over the other podcast I do, Savor, which is all
about food and drink.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
We just did an episode on Rosemary and there's a
high le.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Specific game girls used to play, and there's even a
more modern version where you put like your phone and
it has to have a picture of Rosemary on the
screen under your bed. If you do, you'll dream about
your future husband. But before phones, or you could get
a printed picture, because that also works. People would put
sprigs of rosemary under their pillow. Girls specifically would put
(06:23):
sprigs of rosemary under their pillows. And if you dreamt
and you saw the blurry face of a man, that.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Was your future husband. But if it was a clear face,
that's not him.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
You stay away from that guy, which I love because
it's so vague. Okay, Yes, Another tradition involves a ring
hidden in a potato indicating who will get married next,
or yes, the one I did that I mentioned at
the top, and I think I've mentioned a few times
on this show. I used to peel an apple and
(06:55):
you toss the peel for some reason. I remember it
specifically being over your left shoulder, but I don't think
it matters.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Well, I guess it really doesn't matter in a lot
of ways.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
But it was supposed to form the initial of the
first name of your future husband if you've left it
outside for a couple of hours. And I got a
D or perhaps a C, which I do think are
like the easiest right letters.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
It was gonna for right.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Or oh yeah, I need to know someone got a Y.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
I need to know someone got a Q.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I need to know if someone got like any of them, Like,
did you get any of those letters?
Speaker 5 (07:32):
Because that would be more shocking yes for me?
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (07:35):
Or how many of those people who actually did marry
a D C or O, which I imagine is the
or L or I like, those are the people.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
We'll see. I mean, I got my whole futurehead of me.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Of course, these are they're games, They're just games. It
makes sense to me that girls who we've long taught
that getting married is the end all, be all and
for a good or some history something their future and
security and.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Happiness depended on.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I would have these rituals around predicting who it was
they were going to get married to. I believe we've
talked before about mash like that was a really popular
thing that right, Oh.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I played match. Apparently I call it a different thing because.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
I didn't want to stand for it.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Didn't you want a shack, so I got a cabin.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
So you changed the.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
House.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You made the rules fit you almost a shack. That's fantastic.
I love that says a lot about you. I really
appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
I mean my own future, dammit, I love it.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
But anyway, so many of these games were ideally performed
on celebratory days when seasons were changing, like Halloween. I
know there's a lot of autumn festivals, and the Maypole
thing is very seasonal as well, like spring, right, spring, summer. Yeah,
so when people believe that the veil between the living
and the dead was thinner, potentially allowing them to see
(09:09):
into the future, to get some sense of what was coming.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Done, done, done so.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Halloween and its predecessor festivals in Europe also marked the
end of the harvest, beginning of winter less sunlight hours
periods some worried may one day never end.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
I feel like that's plot to a show. Which show
is that?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
To that end, people would celebrate and make offerings to
gods and spirits, and food was often a part of
all of this, including something called the dumb cake, though
it came around a bit later.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yes, and shout out to Jan who's been listening to
all the backlog, and it's been wonderful to hear hear
from Jan as they work through from bringing this one
to our attention, IM pointing us out to this very
helpful and fun article over at Atlas Obscura written by
Ann Ubank about this whole thing. Also shout out to
listener Renee for calling in about using the word dumb
(10:07):
and how hurtful it can be in the deaf community.
And we're going to try to do better in the future.
This is the name of this cake, but we're going
to try to use it as little as possible, but
always appreciate these notes so we can do better.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Oh bt dubs, because it just reminded me of the fact.
So I just rewatch American Horror Story some of the
old seasons and they do talk about Halloween and the
fact that during the season of the Witch Season, rather
where Madame Laurie coming back, and she was like, Oh,
it's Halloween already, Do I need to set out the
(10:42):
lanterns and get ready for the bonfires and the festival
essentially she talked about. I was like, Oh yeah, that
used to be the whole Jaquelineer thing. But then a
listener also pointed out the fact that we forgot to
mention Sarah Paulson being a screen queen.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
I was like, oh yeah, because she.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Has that trend going on on dot saying help me
the killer is escaping. Okay, this just reminded me of
all of those things, so I feel like I needed
to say that, and thank you to our listener for
reminding me of that.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
Keep going.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yes, yes, she did appear on some list Yes, okay.
So from the seventeen hundreds to nineteen hundreds, unmarried women
in the UK and North America would take part in
this baking ritual to divine their future husbands. As far
as games go, it was more of a spooky sleepover game,
(11:31):
kind of like Bloody Mary, with the goal of seeing
your future husband in your dreams. That's a recurring theme
is it's like in your dreams you're going to see
this person. The origins of it are hard to pin down,
but it was probably first played in or around Scotland,
perhaps a riff on eating bread on Shrove Tuesday to
see your future spouse. Though again, different versions of this
(11:53):
game have existed around the world for pretty much forever,
and listeners, we would love to hear you have any
experience with any of these, or if you have any
history in your country with any of these, please please
let us know. The first known written description of this
cake appeared in a sixteen eighty five book on witchcraft
by George Sinclair called Satan's Invisible World discovered. Sinclair, a
(12:19):
demonologist and mathematician, likened it to a very silly and
potentially dangerous superstition the world discovered.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
I know, that's the whole thing, all right.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
So in the early days they were certainly viewed by
Christians as an unsavory remnants of pagan religions that would
bring evil down upon any fool to partake in them.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
You're fool, any you're one of those, now, I know.
I didn't know. It's damned you.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Sorry.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
For instance, take this quote from the seventeen fifties book
God's Revenge against the Breakers of the Ten Commandments, that
execrable way of making what is termed a dumb cake
with a thousand other tricks in order to see or
dream of their sweethearts, which are still too much in
use among young maidens, in in order to satisfy their
(13:14):
insatiable curiosity and inexcusable impatience.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Inexcusable in patience.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
How dare the take on such witchcraft?
Speaker 5 (13:25):
I'm very bad at this.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, wow, I thought it was great. I thought it
was great. I mean, I guess you should put a
note in here. Like again, it's really easy to make
fun of things like this because it sounds silly, but
I did the same thing, and especially at this time,
your whole future was really as a young girl writing
on this future sweetheart or spouse, right, So it just
(13:53):
really really makes sense to me. And I know we've
talked about witches and witchcraft and especially women around that,
and you know, violence, it led to violence, and all
the suspicion of what usually just young girls or maybe
beliefs that weren't didn't fit into this very strict idea
of Christianity.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
So it's yeah, just a note, right. This guy, I'm
sure was terrible. He sounds like a real piece of work,
a real piece of work he does. No one's too
sure where the name came from. Either.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Some suspect it comes from an older definition for dumb,
meaning silent. Others think it might be derived from the
Middle English definition for doom, meaning fate or destiny. But
wherever it came from, it was incredibly popular for a
couple of centuries in the UK and North America, to
the point accounts of it appeared in news stories, folklore, anthologies,
(14:50):
and even research papers. These accounts paint a general picture
of how it went. Late in the night, maybe around midnight,
two or three girls gave together to bake a cake
in complete silence.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
And side note, I love how many of these games
involve complete silence, almost as if the parents created them
or something.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
The ingredients were simple, typically including flour, salt, and water.
Each girl then wrote their initials into the cake, and
then it was placed into the oven to bake again
total silence. Once done, the girls pulled the cake out
of the oven and broke it, perhaps each taking a bite.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
Then they walked backwards.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
To their beds, placing their piece of cake under their
pillows and going to sleep so that they could dream
of their future husband.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
So they didn't eat it. They spit it out and
put it under their bed.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Sometimes I think they took a bite, but there was
still a piece left to put.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Under the pillow.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Sounds messy.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
It was a harder cake than what we're used to.
It was kind of a tougher Yeah, all right, it's checking.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, And as you're talking about, yeah, I can't imagine
what these processes were like. Because if you didn't dream
of someone, that means you're doomed, right.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
I'm sure that it wasn't a It sounds like aus.
We're going to get into it in a second. It
was kind of scary no matter what. If you saw someone,
it was kind of scary. If you didn't see someone,
it was kind of scary. There's a lot of fear
around it, which again also makes sense to me if
this was something you truly believed. But also the Atlas
(16:32):
Obscura article I mentioned earlier, the author and a friend
attempted this and it was funny because she was like,
I dreamed of.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Nothing, not a damn thing.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
Well, yeah, so that would be the less frightening outcome.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
So in some versions, the husband was supposed to show up,
and here's a quote from an eighteen sixteen description. Man,
we have good records on this quote. A few minutes
after midnight, a husband of her, who was to be
first married, will appear to lay his hand on the
part of the cake marked with her name.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
That does sound a little creepy to me.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
Why are you in my bedroom?
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Come on? Oh?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And speaking of sometimes the boyfriends were pretty annoyed at
being summoned in some versions of these, as in this
nineteen thirteen article about folklore Out of England by Angelina Parker.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Quote.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
An old lady once told me that a girl in
this way brought her future husband, who was a soldier,
into the room, and in passing through the doorway, he
broke his sword in two. The girl picked up the
broken piece and kept it after she had been married
to him some years. In turning out her trunk, she
came across it and showed it to her husband, and
he was so angry he could hardly forgive her. He
(17:47):
told her he suffered dreadful agonies during the time she
forced him to appear, although he did not then know
of the reason.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
The way to blame a woman.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
True, true, true, true, these mysterious agonies, it must have
been you.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
That's the only explanation.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
That could have been a whole plot point.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I'm not sure I've ever seen, like a horror version
story of what we think is a romance and then
it turns out to be it was very painful for
the other.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Person involved, or something. I think I've seen.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Some fairy tale versions that are similar but not quite
mm hm. In another version of this game, a dark
(18:44):
shadow would appear upon the breaking of the bread, chasing
the girls, and the only salvation from a mysterious but
surely terrifying fate was to jump straight into bed again.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
I love how many of these.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I don't know if I'm right, but it just feels
like parents trying to get their.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Is go to sleep and be quiet, get into that bed.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
He go straight to bed, or your future husband's going
to come and chase.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
You, terrify you. Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
And at least once, making one of these cakes did
lead to disastrous real world consequences. Three girls working at
an English estate accidentally made their cake using a poisonous ingredient.
That night, they woke members of the estate with their
agonized screaming. One actually died, the other two survived, only
(19:32):
to be derided in the news as quote two deluded females.
But again, as one writer put it in eighteen forty nine,
a young maiden will go through a great deal in
order to get some kind of answer to a question
that so deeply involves her happiness.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Here's a description of the whole thing by Charles Dick
from nineteen eleven.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Quote.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
The two must go to the larder and jointly get
the various ingredients. First, they get a bowl, each holding
it and wash and dry it together. Then each gets
a spoonful of flour, a spoonful of water, and a
little salt.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
When making the.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Cake, they must stand on something they have never stood
on before. They must mix it together and roll it.
Then they draw a line across the middle of the
cake and each girl cuts her initials, each on opposite
sides of the line. Then both put it in the
oven and bake it. It seems like a really big
bonding time.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
Annie. Should we try this?
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I think we should.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
I think we should.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
The silence far will be hard, and if we have
to walk back anywhere that I'm done for.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
Yeah, because if I have to go down some stairs, no, no.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So this is actually the one I believe that the
Atlas Obscura article that they used, and my favorite part
was them trying to find something to stand on that
they'd never stood before.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
Can we get a piece of carpet that we just buy?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I'm sure, Okay, I think I could find things in
your apartment.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
I have to run? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Do I have to go to someone's house I've never
been before and never stand in front of that place?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I think the friend had an easier time finding something.
Oh no, okay, no, that's too much that I got
to put the foot down.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Well, if we revisited, I think that could be fun.
We'll let you listen. There's know how it goes.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
If we find out.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yes, yes, But for now, let's talk about bobbing for
apples and the related game Snap Apple, which sounds slightly terrifying.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
I can't wait to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
As a summer slash fall fruit especially, and here we're talking,
we're still talking about mostly European North American traditions. Apples
were often involved in early Halloween celebrations and used ensue
saying rituals. On top of that, they have a long
history of being seen as somewhat magical. I'm sure, like,
off the top of my head, I'm already think it's
so white. There's just a bunch of like eve, there's
(21:54):
a lot of imagery around apples. You can go see
that episode Favorite did on Apples. We go into that
and why that is a little bit so if you
want to learn more. As mentioned earlier, there's the using
of the apple peel to ascertain the initial of your
future spouse. Another though was bobbing for apples a tradition
that most likely originated in Europe and perhaps specifically Britain.
(22:17):
It started off a bit differently than what we do now.
Have you ever bought for apple Samantha.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
No, nope. It just didn't seem sanitary.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I think i've I mean especially now, I'm like, what
were we thinking? I think I've only done it once,
and I'm so bad. I never got an apple and
I hated it. It was pretty miserable to be honest, have.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
A giant mouth, uh huh, and then also really good teeth,
and I do not have either one of them. Well,
I have a big mouth, but you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Yeah, I mean now I have with my front fake juice.
I would never ever tip something like this.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
My teeth are so sensitive. I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, I mean it's highly it like bounces away, it
bobs away. But there there was never any who's your
future spouse going to be element when I've thought of it,
or that one time that I played it.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
It was just can you get the apple? But there
did used to be.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
In one version of this tradition, as it used to go,
girls and women would secretly mark the apples and put
them in a barrel of water. Then potential matches would
dunk their heads into the water and bite into an
apple as a way to look into romantic futures or
bring people together. However, in some parts of Scotland, bobbing
(23:32):
for apples once and still does. Listeners please write in
if you know share the same name as the practice
of dunking women.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
In water to test if they were witches.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Yeah, that makes sense and that's how apple.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's also interesting to me. Again, this all
makes sense in terms of a game people would play,
but it's also kind of like teenagers being shy about
asking out somebody. Oh yeah, so there's that element as well.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
On the other hand, there's snap apple.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
This one is a Halloween tradition also from the British
Aisles that has roots and paganism.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Here's how it went.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
The goal was to snag an apple in your teeth
without using your hands, instead of dunking your head into water.
The apple was attached to one end of a stick,
while a burning candle was attached to the other end.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
The stick itself was.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Dangled from a string and then the whole thing was
spun around.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
The player then tried to.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Get the apple, but failure might mean a candle in
your face.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Whoo.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Getting the apple first could either mean you were going
to be happy in love or that you'd be the
first to be married. A similar, related version of this
game called for suspending a hoop from the ceiling. The
hoop was adorned with various candies, peppers, breads, cakes, and apples.
Depending on what food the player got, it foretold the
nature of their marriage, like spicy or sweet.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
I don't like any of those games.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
There's some risk involved, for sure, I guess I would
rather have the ladder than but still.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah, yeah, Well, as our friend and coworker Laura likes
to say, they didn't have Netflix back then, So find
your own entertainment, I suppose so.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
One tradition claimed that you would take an apple to
the mirror, shine a candle in it, and eat the apple,
which would cause your future husband over your shoulder to
appear Tuta. That sounds like a bloody merry game, are there?
And another you'd cut an apple into nine pieces, and
after you'd eaten the eighth, your lover would.
Speaker 5 (25:43):
Appear to ask for the ninth. All of these things
are how the hell did you get in my house.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Bro they do sound I mean, for someone who watches
a lot of horror movies, this doesn't sound romantic. However,
like I said, some of them were. It just something
like Bloody Mary. It was kind of freaky. But okay,
enough about apples, let's talk about nuts. Nuts were also
(26:10):
used for seeing into the future to figure out who
you were going to marry. In some places, Halloween may
have been called nutcrack Night or the Sacrifice of the Nuts,
because they were used so much in these sort of
future attempts at seeing into the future. Women would name
the nuts and put them in the fire. If the
nuts cooked together and smoothly, that was good for your
(26:33):
chances with that person the nut was named after. If
the nuts jumped and cracked, not so good, not looking good.
Another belief held at this time was that if a
man brought a woman walle nuts, it was true love,
which again it feels like if the man knew that,
then yeah, it's.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
Just like right right, I did.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I mean, with all of these there's a lot of
historical distortion of trying to understand what people believed back
at this time, and a lot of different accounts. And
I did read one where it was actually the opposite,
and if the nuts cooked slowly and together, it meant
boring times ahead for you with that person. But if
they jumped in practice gonna be really exciting and fun.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
So the bit about him bringing you nuts, it's kind
of a little more of what I had thought of
as a kid, like I had two to three specific
things that my future husband would do for me for
me to know that he was the one, And I
did have that, and it was very specific.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
It has not happened.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
That sounds like practical magic territory.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
You're getting You're right, You're right. I think about that.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
But yeah, as a kid like, these are the things
that I know that I love. And if he does
these two things, because I had two specific, very specific things.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
Then I know he's the one.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Which makes me kind of gag a little bit, but
hey whatever, a little bit nauseous on that one. But anyway,
So let's talk about cabbage, types of cabbage or once.
I feel like this is very Korean for some reason,
I don't know why. I feel like a lot of
Asian food just it just has all the cabbage. So
I'm like, okay, this feels right, so it ties with
(28:19):
cabbage or once believed to have Halloween love predicting properties too.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
What a delight? I love cabbage.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
So I'm not sure about these things. But here's a
fun vague one. Great women would go into fields pulling
up stocks of kill, examining them for things like link, girth, taste,
weight to kind of get an idea of what their
relationship with their future spouse would be.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
Light. So is it kind of phallic? Am I pictoring
this right? Am I wrong? Or is it just about
the entire relationship? Do I just have a dirty mind?
Speaker 4 (28:55):
It could be either or.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
It was a lot of like a lot of its
wordplay right, like if it's long, then the relationship will
last long.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Oh see, I was completely darny.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
So lots of earth clinging to the roots were often
interpreted as a substantial dowry.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
Didn't the dowry come from the woman?
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I think, yeah, I think. So he's supposed to be
the woman's family.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
Okay, so this is for guys too, then.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
No, I think it was like I would assume that
would I would at the time, you would interpret that
as getting married to somebody higher up?
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Okay, kid, ask for a bigger dowry.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Okay, so if a woman was looking to live a
bit more on the wild side, she could steal a
cabbage and see who she met on the way home.
And over in Ireland and Newfoundland, the dish colcannon made
of cabbage and potatoes. People would hide a ring and
button underneath it, and whoever found the ring was going
to get married soon, and the button portended you would
(30:01):
never marry. Say it can be yeah, I guess so, yes,
I don't want to be married. That is a really
interesting reaction from me because it's supposed to be how
it's supposed to be seen, right, But yes, I am absolutely.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
Parsons was like, I don't want to be married. That
sounds awful.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, well, I mean not to harp on this point
too much, but it was. It's still a big deal now,
don't get me wrong, but back then it was a
much bigger right.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
Woman's value was in marriage, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yes, and also as a game, you know, sort of
similar to old maid. And this is still something we
have to shape today culturally.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
But like, there's nothing worse or scarier than being old
and married woman.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
So I can imagine at a party.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
On social media being like this is not even be
alone like it's the worst thing to put on someone.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
They're like, Okay, cool, it's.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Fine, I'm good. Yeah, I think yeah. And that's just
the sampling.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
There are so many of these, and these were Halloween focus.
But again, listeners, if you've got some or if you've
played them, let us know. We did want to talk
(31:24):
briefly about costumes. And we've done several episodes in the
past around women's costumes and even the history of Halloween
and especially here in America and the commercialization of it
and how women were heavily involved in the early days.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
So this is going to be a much more modern look.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Also, thanks again to Jessica who suggested we look into this.
So there has been some recent research around gender differences
and costumes and why these differences matter. The researchers duck
through sixteen hundred costumes in this recent research on two
online costumes superstore websites sites that have a fairly strict
line between men's costumes and women's costumes, same with boys
(32:03):
and girls. Some of the findings of this research weren't surprising.
Women's costumes are tighter, sexier, and if that wasn't what
a woman wanted, there weren't many options outside of that.
We've all heard the arguments, I'm sure around why do
women always have to wear sexy costumes? It's slut a weird?
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
But if the only options for women are sexy, which
shouldn't really be an issue, if that's something the person
in question wants to wear, then we're limiting what women
can dress as and then judging them for it. In
the words of one of the researchers, Aaron Hippel, the
issue isn't really that adult women are wearing sexy costumes.
Women should be allowed to choose what we wear all
(32:45):
year round. The issue is that there are limited choices.
If one shops on the women's side of the Halloween
sales floor divide, the choices are very limited. U.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
So it sends this message that women and girls should
be sexy, that they're looks are our front and center
and should be front and center, and that their bodies
are for consumption for the mail.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Gays.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Again, if you want to dress sexually, totally should a.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Big believer in that. But it's the issue of options.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
Right, And they've got numbers to back this up too.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
So they found eighty eight percent of women's costumes showed
skin compared to sixteen percent of men's. The number is
sixty eight percent for girls compared to one percent of boys.
So since for a good chunk of the people who
are celebrating Halloween are celebrating it in public, Halloween falls
in cooler months, that means options for comfort and warmth
(33:43):
are limited unless you are like me and you get
a onesie and you're like, nah, I'm good bro in
my Panda onesie.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
I have had so many cold halloweens. I remember there
was a cold.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Snap in Atlanta, Oh, when I was in college, so
you know, many years ago, and just being so cold
and uncomfortable and going home because my costume was very skimpy.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Yes, right.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
And on top of that, ninety three percent of women's
costumes over tight, even uncomfortably so, compared to the twenty
eight percent of men's And that's forty nine percent of
girls versus five percent four boys.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yes, I mean I had a friend that almost passed
out once from her tight Harley Quinn outfit.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
So you can get really uncomfortably tight, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
For those that are just like pre manufactured, obviously very
cheaply made costumes is typically the worst material size, like
for young preprebescent girls, and the fact that's thin see
through not necessarily on purpose, it's just the way it is.
It's like this is the worst combination of costuming, or
(34:52):
they're ridiculously expensive and I'm like, I'm not spending one
hundred and fifty dollars on that antique.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yes, right, well yeah, I mean that's another good point
is if comfort isn't clearly isn't a priority for women's costumes,
and it's again kind of sending this message that it's
not about you know, and it's.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
About how you look and how other people see you.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Right.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
So in interviews, the researchers described how they would have
to go through several pages of women's costumes before finding
one that wasn't sexualized, whereas for men, the very first
option wasn't nice. This finding put out numbers that demonstrate
just how big this gender gap is. And I was
just thinking about this too, like if you think about
(35:40):
even historical levels of costumes, they're all made sexy, and
you're like, that was That's not what it was. You
kind of have this moment of trying to figure out
why something that is already nice has begun even beyond
and then we won't talk about the cultural appropriation that
happens within these costumes, but how they're also sexualized. I
(36:01):
was thinking about there was just a recent argument on
TikTok because I'm now officially on TikTok all the time and.
Speaker 5 (36:07):
I need to ban myself from it.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
But whatever, the whole idea of why people are arguing
with other people about why can't I dress up as Pocahontas,
why can't I dress up as Mulan and being there
to be like, it's not the point that you may
have really liked these what you know of as Disney characters,
but the appropriation of what you're doing and what you're
trying to do, especially when we talk about indigenous communities,
(36:31):
Hey watch it.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
And then especially the.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Overly sexualized tones of these costumes and what you're doing
it for is not because you're doing it because you
appreciate these individuals and you see them as iconic. You're
doing them because you're being a sexy version of something
that is known, and that's disgusting.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
On so many levels.
Speaker 4 (36:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, And it's it's interesting how it's such a big,
accepted kind of thing about like women's costumes will be
sexy that I think that. Just the other day I
heard like three for jokes about it, you know, sexy
crayons or sex just like random object right and it's sexy.
Speaker 4 (37:08):
Right, Yeah, And I know.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I've heard, And I suppose there could also be an
argument that this is one of the only times of
the year women feel it's acceptable to dress as sexy
as their heart desires, which is also a problem. Most
likely all these things are going on at once. I
remember one year I dressed in a cute what I
was like, modest outfit and went around telling everyone I
was tired of having sexy costumes, only sexy costume options.
(37:34):
I just remember being at this party and being like,
already kind of going off about this.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
So I'm a proponent of being really silly, and that's
kind of one of the things that I try to
do for Halloween. And there have been some moments of
like me trying to be sexy did not pull off
really well, and I was like, I don't feel comfortable
in feeling like something that I am not on the constant,
and that also again the bigger conversation of being sexualized
(38:03):
fetishized as well as just not having confidence.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
So it's all kind of a layered bunch. But the
few times that I have I'm like, this is really bad.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
So one of the costumes that I did because as
an Asian person in a white community, I always felt
like I couldn't dress as anything and be that, Like
I couldn't be the Asian version of something like that
just felt wrong and felt weird. And I will say
that because it felt like I was trying to put
myself in the hierarchy, trying to be white. Not because
I didn't want to be one of the white people.
(38:33):
It was because I was ashamed for not being white,
so I couldn't possibly be accepted as white. So that's
again a different conversation. So I dressed up as a
Geisha is being an Asian partment like, oh, this is
one thing that I can be that can be kind
of sexy. And then coming back to realize, holy, I'm
fitting into that same narrative of sexualizing and fetishratizing women
with this whole moment of the memoirs of Geisha coming out.
Speaker 5 (38:56):
And be like this was written by a white man.
Do we really want to go into all this?
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Like this is all of those things, but coming back
to realizing, even though it is kind of more accepted
because I am at least an Asian woman doing it,
I had two white friends do it with me. By
the way, the whole big conversation in that that wasn't
their fault. It was my idea, I will say to that,
But it was problematic then and problematic now. Be going
(39:20):
back to looking at it and being like, oh, yeah, okay,
I did bad and even though I am Asian, this
was bad on me as well, and that bigger narrative
of why do I feel like the only things that
are sexy are a fantasization of what men think of
Asian women, and which is what it can be dangerous
for Asian women, Like there's such a bigger narrative of
(39:43):
this conversation that it's okay to be sexy, be the
sexy creon if you want to, and you feel a
fit about it, go ahead your sexy self in that,
but have an understanding that, yes, there is a lot
of backlash, and that's the bigger conversation of what it is,
especially for women once again to sometimes feed into the
stereotype that can be really harmful or if you're a
(40:05):
white person being like, but I want to be a
squid gaze person.
Speaker 5 (40:09):
Please don't do the eyes. Please don't do that. Don't
be racist. That is racist. That is not good.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah, no, no, no, no no, And we have I
mean for something that feels on its surface level very frivolous.
There are so many aspects of this, and we've talked
about a few before, and I've talked about how sometimes
I feel really self conscious when I do like my
winter Soldier outfit, which I don't think is very sexy,
(40:36):
but it's slightly sexy, and kids see that and it's like,
you know, I like it and I feel good in it,
but I know that kids are observing that, and they're
observing how men might treat me in that, and then.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
That's makes me feel weird, that big strange.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
That's again the conversation of like, why are we not
putting the responsibility on men?
Speaker 4 (40:55):
Yes? Absolutely, mm hmm right. It shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Again, you shouldn't be like, oh, I'm this object for
you to just treat however you want to treat. But
it does turn into that, and I hate when kids
see it because it's just like I don't want to contribute.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
And you're right, and it becomes that that's the lesson
of the story, not the other problem of the fact
that you have been taught as a child and or
the parent has been teaching the child. Oh see, the girl,
don't do that, because she's the problem. And that's not
the truth in this at all. And of course, and
I know I'm preaching to the choir when we talk
about all of this, but this again same like stripped
(41:35):
down of the fact that if done appropriately, everything has
been in that caveat. If done appropriately and you feel
sexy and you feel good about it, then wonderful. Let's
talk about the fact that that is not an open
invitation for us to be addled. If you want to
look from afar and appreciate, because sure, maybe they put
(41:59):
some I'm in that outfit and do want compliments? Okay,
if they don't, if they're uncomfortable by you, then don't.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah, yep, never touch, Always ask before you take a picture. Anyway, Yes, yes,
And I was also thinking, I guess there's an argument
that in our entertainment, a lot of women's costumes are
more sexualized.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
They're costuming in general.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
And if Halloween costumes are at least in part based
on entertainment.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Then it filters into that too.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
That doesn't explain things like sexy Bernie costume, but it
does explain a lot of uh that sexy Bernie meme costume.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Mysel the other day.
Speaker 5 (42:36):
Yeah, I just saw a sexy ted lasso costume.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Oh and I didn't know I had. I had a
moment of huh.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
See, yeah, I guess my thing would be, is there
a non sexy women's ted lassus?
Speaker 5 (42:50):
I've seen a few.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Yes, yeah, couseplaying just straight right, But could you like
the sto.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
So the sexy I will say, the sexy ted lasso.
She may on her own. That's pretty good.
Speaker 4 (43:01):
I'm awesome.
Speaker 5 (43:04):
But I don't know why that. It doesn't enter my
head to do things. I was like, yeah, that's pretty good.
Like that's all I could think.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Saw on people's minds, that's for sure. So going back
to this research, these are not the only findings they had.
They also discovered women and girls costumes rarely come with masks.
One percent and four percent of women's and girls respectively
come with masks, compared to thirty five percent and forty
six percent of men's and boys. Why researcher Laurie Hier
(43:33):
speculates we found that girls and women's costumes provided less
coverage and accentuated the wear's own physical attractiveness as the
character herself rather than her costume character, so that she
became the featured subject. It seems that girl's costumes had
to fulfill demands for feminine ornamental display. She must not
simply be a princess. She must display herself as pretty
(43:53):
in her princess costume. On the other hand, costumes for
boys and men put the alternate identity and character at
the forefront. Hires went on. Costumes marketed to girls and
women consistently promise that she will look cute, sexy, pretty,
and all eyes will be on her, whereas costumes marketed
towards boys typically promise that they will be strong and
tough or scary and gross and then yeah. I read
(44:17):
another interesting article about this. I wasn't sure how much
of waiting to put in it, but they were saying, like,
you know, the original intent of Halloween, which we are
way off of what it was originally, was that you
were supposed to hide your face and like hide your identity,
and that was the costume. So that you know, ghost
or spirits can find you. I do think that's interesting,
(44:38):
and I mean, it's just hard for me to like
make that argument in our modern times when we've just gone.
Speaker 4 (44:44):
So far away from that.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
But that is an interesting point when it comes to
these boys costumes having so much more coverage and mask
whereas women's and girls generally don't. Right.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
I will say one of my favorite costumes that I
did as the Grudge Ghost, and I just follow people
around making the noise oh freaky.
Speaker 5 (45:08):
And I stay in character so I'm super annoying.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
Oh I'm sure you know, like is no longer scary.
Speaker 3 (45:16):
It's well, no, I still did enough that freaked people
out and they would all say stop, and I'd be like,
I appreciate your dedication, thank you. So another study found
that costumes of strong feminist historical icons are lacking when
it comes to costume stores, which is why you'll find
(45:39):
article after article instructing women and young girls how to
diy them. I definitely saw plenty of like Rosie the
Reveter and of course RBG with the necklace and all
of that. I've seen so many of that, but I
have also seen amazing diy like these parents are doing
for their young kids. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's amazing.
(46:01):
I knew that costume.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
I would say that was probably when I was researching this.
That was a good chunk of the articles on the
early Google pages where you know, like.
Speaker 4 (46:11):
Don't want your young girl to wear sexy costume.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Here's eight costume ideas of famous historical female figures and
how to make them, which is another argument that we
could make and has been made. It's that that's better
for the environments. Right. So, yeah, there's a lot going
on in this conversation.
Speaker 5 (46:31):
A lot more than you thought.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Annie. Well, listeners, we would love to know if you've
got any cool costumes you would like to share. Please
please please let us know whether you're celebrating or not.
We hope you have a lovely, safe weekend. And yes,
if you would like to email us, you can. We
would love to hear from you. Our email is Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us
(46:52):
on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at
Steffon Never sold you thinks It's always too Our super producer, Christina.
Speaker 5 (46:58):
Happy Halloween, see yes and.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Thanks to you for listening. Steffon Never Told You his
production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stephane.
Never told you a protection of iHeartRadio, and today we are.
It is the weekend before Halloween. Because we've been traveling
a lot lately.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I can't speak for Samantha, but my plans are to
carve a pumpkin and watch a lot of horror movies.
I do have one more haunted house that I'm doing
a Monday, but that's it.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
That's all day officially the day before Halloween. Then huh, yes,
it's gonna be crowded. Y'all wanna have fun?
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Yeah, we're gonna.
Speaker 5 (00:40):
I do not want to go.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
No, I figured you didn't, so I hope you're not offended.
I didn't ask you because I feel like I know
you well enough to.
Speaker 5 (00:48):
Know every you do it.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
I'm like, you have fun, bye, Yes, I will invite
me one you and I was like no.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
That's when I was like never.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, yeah, And I do love I love Halloween.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
I have all of my like, I have my pumpkin.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm gonna carve it, as I said, this weekend, and
I've got my pumpkin candles.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
I like the vibe of it that I am tired.
I'm tired.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I've been trampling a lot, and I'm just gonna stay in.
But one of the things I think about a lot
with Halloween are foods. I think a lot about kind
of like fall foods, autumnal foods, if you will. And
we did this episode a while back about kind of
these old traditions around food and Halloween, like using an
(01:35):
apple to predict your future or something like that. And
as I have been speed watching all of my horror movies,
I have seen that in a lot of a lot
of them. But also in this one, we talk about
gender differences in costumes. And I just recently saw us
side by sight, and it wasn't even about gender differences
(01:59):
in costumes, just a side by side of two costumes
of the same thing, and the costume Beer Girls was
much more sexualized. So this is still going going strong.
But yeah, we hope that you have a fun, safe weekend,
whatever you celebrate or don't celebrate, And we would love
(02:20):
to hear about any of your traditions, any of your costumes.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Oh my gosh, yes, that.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Would be amazing. But in the meantime, please enjoy this
classic episode. Hey, this is Annie.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
And Samantha, I know, come to stuff I've never told
you production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So, Samantha, the other day, I was talking about this
old game I used to play that I'll get into
you more in a second, but it was a predictive game,
right of learning who your husband are, getting a clue
who your future husband would be.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
And you had no idea what I was talking about.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Still don't.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Have you.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I mean, did you do anything like that, like where
you were trying to figure out any clues about who
your future partner would be.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
I mean we played the match game and then the
little uh fortune teller.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Game or the Fortune Teller. Yeah, yeah, those games.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
But I have never had a real tradition. I know that
there is one for Marti Gras. Is it a Martini
Gras cake where they have a baby, a ring and
something else in a cake? And if you find that
then those are supposed to be significant of sorts. Those
are the only things that I know, and I don't
know if that's Marti Gras.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Is it Marti Gras?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Marti Gras has the baby cake? I believe there is
a version that has like a a ring or something.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
I know we did it at a wet like a shower,
and I thought it was really weird because I've never
seen that. And that was a college friend.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Who they did this for at a bridal shower. Bridal
ludgeonals looking around like what so I was so confused.
So obviously I don't know these traditions very well.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Well, you are in for Age s Reach just all
the time for Halloween. Uh, yeah, it is interesting.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I believe I've heard of that cake thing you're talking
about too, and I believe it's supposed to predict who's
getting married next. Okay, yes, similar to catching the bouquet
at a wedding, which is hilarious for me because I'm
very competitive and I've like always caught it. Oh, I
have no interest in getting married. Oh I'm so competitive.
I'm like the person that's like bending now.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Here we go and then all these dudes will come
up to you afterwards and they're like congratulations, and you're like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I caught it, clearly not what they're talking about.
Speaker 5 (04:52):
Oh that's MS king cakes, king.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Cakes, kink.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah yeah, I mean normally in my experience, kin cake
doesn't have it is a Marty grat cake, but it
doesn't have the ring but yes, I think, and.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
So baby, right, James, it's a baby. Yeah, okay, but yes.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Since Halloween is right around the corner as we're recording
this and as you listen to it, if you listen
to it right when it comes out, we wanted to
dig into some Halloween traditions that involve women and some
more modern takes on these traditions or some more modern
things that are going on, including games and costumes.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
And one of them is.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
This sort of food tradition of like a food predicting
who you're going to marry. And it is one thing
that I've been really curious about this idea, and especially
around Halloween, of these traditions around women eating or using
certain food so that they can figure out something about
their future spouse, and it's usually a husband.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
It's very heteronormative.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
And this is something that I come across surprisingly regularly
over the other podcast I do, Savor, which is all
about food and drink.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
We just did an episode on Rosemary and there's a
high le.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Specific game girls used to play, and there's even a
more modern version where you put like your phone and
it has to have a picture of Rosemary on the
screen under your bed. If you do, you'll dream about
your future husband. But before phones, or you could get
a printed picture, because that also works. People would put
sprigs of rosemary under their pillow. Girls specifically would put
(06:23):
sprigs of rosemary under their pillows. And if you dreamt
and you saw the blurry face of a man, that.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Was your future husband. But if it was a clear face,
that's not him.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
You stay away from that guy, which I love because
it's so vague. Okay, Yes, Another tradition involves a ring
hidden in a potato indicating who will get married next,
or yes, the one I did that I mentioned at
the top, and I think I've mentioned a few times
on this show. I used to peel an apple and
(06:55):
you toss the peel for some reason. I remember it
specifically being over your left shoulder, but I don't think
it matters.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Well, I guess it really doesn't matter in a lot
of ways.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
But it was supposed to form the initial of the
first name of your future husband if you've left it
outside for a couple of hours. And I got a
D or perhaps a C, which I do think are
like the easiest right letters.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
It was gonna for right.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Or oh yeah, I need to know someone got a Y.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
I need to know someone got a Q.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I need to know if someone got like any of them, Like,
did you get any of those letters?
Speaker 5 (07:32):
Because that would be more shocking yes for me?
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (07:35):
Or how many of those people who actually did marry
a D C or O, which I imagine is the
or L or I like, those are the people.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
We'll see. I mean, I got my whole futurehead of me.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Of course, these are they're games, They're just games. It
makes sense to me that girls who we've long taught
that getting married is the end all, be all and
for a good or some history something their future and
security and.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Happiness depended on.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I would have these rituals around predicting who it was
they were going to get married to. I believe we've
talked before about mash like that was a really popular
thing that right, Oh.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I played match. Apparently I call it a different thing because.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
I didn't want to stand for it.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Didn't you want a shack, so I got a cabin.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
So you changed the.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
House.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You made the rules fit you almost a shack. That's fantastic.
I love that says a lot about you. I really
appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
I mean my own future, dammit, I love it.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
But anyway, so many of these games were ideally performed
on celebratory days when seasons were changing, like Halloween. I
know there's a lot of autumn festivals, and the Maypole
thing is very seasonal as well, like spring, right, spring, summer. Yeah,
so when people believe that the veil between the living
and the dead was thinner, potentially allowing them to see
(09:09):
into the future, to get some sense of what was coming.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Done, done, done so.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Halloween and its predecessor festivals in Europe also marked the
end of the harvest, beginning of winter less sunlight hours
periods some worried may one day never end.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
I feel like that's plot to a show. Which show
is that?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
To that end, people would celebrate and make offerings to
gods and spirits, and food was often a part of
all of this, including something called the dumb cake, though
it came around a bit later.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yes, and shout out to Jan who's been listening to
all the backlog, and it's been wonderful to hear hear
from Jan as they work through from bringing this one
to our attention, IM pointing us out to this very
helpful and fun article over at Atlas Obscura written by
Ann Ubank about this whole thing. Also shout out to
listener Renee for calling in about using the word dumb
(10:07):
and how hurtful it can be in the deaf community.
And we're going to try to do better in the future.
This is the name of this cake, but we're going
to try to use it as little as possible, but
always appreciate these notes so we can do better.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Oh bt dubs, because it just reminded me of the fact.
So I just rewatch American Horror Story some of the
old seasons and they do talk about Halloween and the
fact that during the season of the Witch Season, rather
where Madame Laurie coming back, and she was like, Oh,
it's Halloween already, Do I need to set out the
(10:42):
lanterns and get ready for the bonfires and the festival
essentially she talked about. I was like, Oh yeah, that
used to be the whole Jaquelineer thing. But then a
listener also pointed out the fact that we forgot to
mention Sarah Paulson being a screen queen.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
I was like, oh yeah, because she.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Has that trend going on on dot saying help me
the killer is escaping. Okay, this just reminded me of
all of those things, so I feel like I needed
to say that, and thank you to our listener for
reminding me of that.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
Keep going.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yes, yes, she did appear on some list Yes, okay.
So from the seventeen hundreds to nineteen hundreds, unmarried women
in the UK and North America would take part in
this baking ritual to divine their future husbands. As far
as games go, it was more of a spooky sleepover game,
(11:31):
kind of like Bloody Mary, with the goal of seeing
your future husband in your dreams. That's a recurring theme
is it's like in your dreams you're going to see
this person. The origins of it are hard to pin down,
but it was probably first played in or around Scotland,
perhaps a riff on eating bread on Shrove Tuesday to
see your future spouse. Though again, different versions of this
(11:53):
game have existed around the world for pretty much forever,
and listeners, we would love to hear you have any
experience with any of these, or if you have any
history in your country with any of these, please please
let us know. The first known written description of this
cake appeared in a sixteen eighty five book on witchcraft
by George Sinclair called Satan's Invisible World discovered. Sinclair, a
(12:19):
demonologist and mathematician, likened it to a very silly and
potentially dangerous superstition the world discovered.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
I know, that's the whole thing, all right.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
So in the early days they were certainly viewed by
Christians as an unsavory remnants of pagan religions that would
bring evil down upon any fool to partake in them.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
You're fool, any you're one of those, now, I know.
I didn't know. It's damned you.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Sorry.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
For instance, take this quote from the seventeen fifties book
God's Revenge against the Breakers of the Ten Commandments, that
execrable way of making what is termed a dumb cake
with a thousand other tricks in order to see or
dream of their sweethearts, which are still too much in
use among young maidens, in in order to satisfy their
(13:14):
insatiable curiosity and inexcusable impatience.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Inexcusable in patience.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
How dare the take on such witchcraft?
Speaker 5 (13:25):
I'm very bad at this.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, wow, I thought it was great. I thought it
was great. I mean, I guess you should put a
note in here. Like again, it's really easy to make
fun of things like this because it sounds silly, but
I did the same thing, and especially at this time,
your whole future was really as a young girl writing
on this future sweetheart or spouse, right, So it just
(13:53):
really really makes sense to me. And I know we've
talked about witches and witchcraft and especially women around that,
and you know, violence, it led to violence, and all
the suspicion of what usually just young girls or maybe
beliefs that weren't didn't fit into this very strict idea
of Christianity.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
So it's yeah, just a note, right. This guy, I'm
sure was terrible. He sounds like a real piece of work,
a real piece of work he does. No one's too
sure where the name came from. Either.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Some suspect it comes from an older definition for dumb,
meaning silent. Others think it might be derived from the
Middle English definition for doom, meaning fate or destiny. But
wherever it came from, it was incredibly popular for a
couple of centuries in the UK and North America, to
the point accounts of it appeared in news stories, folklore, anthologies,
(14:50):
and even research papers. These accounts paint a general picture
of how it went. Late in the night, maybe around midnight,
two or three girls gave together to bake a cake
in complete silence.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
And side note, I love how many of these games
involve complete silence, almost as if the parents created them
or something.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
The ingredients were simple, typically including flour, salt, and water.
Each girl then wrote their initials into the cake, and
then it was placed into the oven to bake again
total silence. Once done, the girls pulled the cake out
of the oven and broke it, perhaps each taking a bite.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
Then they walked backwards.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
To their beds, placing their piece of cake under their
pillows and going to sleep so that they could dream
of their future husband.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
So they didn't eat it. They spit it out and
put it under their bed.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Sometimes I think they took a bite, but there was
still a piece left to put.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Under the pillow.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Sounds messy.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
It was a harder cake than what we're used to.
It was kind of a tougher Yeah, all right, it's checking.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, And as you're talking about, yeah, I can't imagine
what these processes were like. Because if you didn't dream
of someone, that means you're doomed, right.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
I'm sure that it wasn't a It sounds like aus.
We're going to get into it in a second. It
was kind of scary no matter what. If you saw someone,
it was kind of scary. If you didn't see someone,
it was kind of scary. There's a lot of fear
around it, which again also makes sense to me if
this was something you truly believed. But also the Atlas
(16:32):
Obscura article I mentioned earlier, the author and a friend
attempted this and it was funny because she was like,
I dreamed of.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Nothing, not a damn thing.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
Well, yeah, so that would be the less frightening outcome.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
So in some versions, the husband was supposed to show up,
and here's a quote from an eighteen sixteen description. Man,
we have good records on this quote. A few minutes
after midnight, a husband of her, who was to be
first married, will appear to lay his hand on the
part of the cake marked with her name.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
That does sound a little creepy to me.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
Why are you in my bedroom?
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Come on? Oh?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And speaking of sometimes the boyfriends were pretty annoyed at
being summoned in some versions of these, as in this
nineteen thirteen article about folklore Out of England by Angelina Parker.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Quote.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
An old lady once told me that a girl in
this way brought her future husband, who was a soldier,
into the room, and in passing through the doorway, he
broke his sword in two. The girl picked up the
broken piece and kept it after she had been married
to him some years. In turning out her trunk, she
came across it and showed it to her husband, and
he was so angry he could hardly forgive her. He
(17:47):
told her he suffered dreadful agonies during the time she
forced him to appear, although he did not then know
of the reason.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
The way to blame a woman.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
True, true, true, true, these mysterious agonies, it must have
been you.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
That's the only explanation.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
That could have been a whole plot point.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I'm not sure I've ever seen, like a horror version
story of what we think is a romance and then
it turns out to be it was very painful for
the other.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Person involved, or something. I think I've seen.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Some fairy tale versions that are similar but not quite
mm hm. In another version of this game, a dark
(18:44):
shadow would appear upon the breaking of the bread, chasing
the girls, and the only salvation from a mysterious but
surely terrifying fate was to jump straight into bed again.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
I love how many of these.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I don't know if I'm right, but it just feels
like parents trying to get their.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Is go to sleep and be quiet, get into that bed.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
He go straight to bed, or your future husband's going
to come and chase.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
You, terrify you. Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
And at least once, making one of these cakes did
lead to disastrous real world consequences. Three girls working at
an English estate accidentally made their cake using a poisonous ingredient.
That night, they woke members of the estate with their
agonized screaming. One actually died, the other two survived, only
(19:32):
to be derided in the news as quote two deluded females.
But again, as one writer put it in eighteen forty nine,
a young maiden will go through a great deal in
order to get some kind of answer to a question
that so deeply involves her happiness.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Here's a description of the whole thing by Charles Dick
from nineteen eleven.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Quote.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
The two must go to the larder and jointly get
the various ingredients. First, they get a bowl, each holding
it and wash and dry it together. Then each gets
a spoonful of flour, a spoonful of water, and a
little salt.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
When making the.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Cake, they must stand on something they have never stood
on before. They must mix it together and roll it.
Then they draw a line across the middle of the
cake and each girl cuts her initials, each on opposite
sides of the line. Then both put it in the
oven and bake it. It seems like a really big
bonding time.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
Annie. Should we try this?
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I think we should.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
I think we should.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
The silence far will be hard, and if we have
to walk back anywhere that I'm done for.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
Yeah, because if I have to go down some stairs, no, no.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So this is actually the one I believe that the
Atlas Obscura article that they used, and my favorite part
was them trying to find something to stand on that
they'd never stood before.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
Can we get a piece of carpet that we just buy?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I'm sure, Okay, I think I could find things in
your apartment.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
I have to run? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Do I have to go to someone's house I've never
been before and never stand in front of that place?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I think the friend had an easier time finding something.
Oh no, okay, no, that's too much that I got
to put the foot down.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Well, if we revisited, I think that could be fun.
We'll let you listen. There's know how it goes.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
If we find out.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yes, yes, But for now, let's talk about bobbing for
apples and the related game Snap Apple, which sounds slightly terrifying.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
I can't wait to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
As a summer slash fall fruit especially, and here we're talking,
we're still talking about mostly European North American traditions. Apples
were often involved in early Halloween celebrations and used ensue
saying rituals. On top of that, they have a long
history of being seen as somewhat magical. I'm sure, like,
off the top of my head, I'm already think it's
so white. There's just a bunch of like eve, there's
(21:54):
a lot of imagery around apples. You can go see
that episode Favorite did on Apples. We go into that
and why that is a little bit so if you
want to learn more. As mentioned earlier, there's the using
of the apple peel to ascertain the initial of your
future spouse. Another though was bobbing for apples a tradition
that most likely originated in Europe and perhaps specifically Britain.
(22:17):
It started off a bit differently than what we do now.
Have you ever bought for apple Samantha.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
No, nope. It just didn't seem sanitary.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I think i've I mean especially now, I'm like, what
were we thinking? I think I've only done it once,
and I'm so bad. I never got an apple and
I hated it. It was pretty miserable to be honest, have.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
A giant mouth, uh huh, and then also really good teeth,
and I do not have either one of them. Well,
I have a big mouth, but you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Yeah, I mean now I have with my front fake juice.
I would never ever tip something like this.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
My teeth are so sensitive. I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, I mean it's highly it like bounces away, it
bobs away. But there there was never any who's your
future spouse going to be element when I've thought of it,
or that one time that I played it.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
It was just can you get the apple? But there
did used to be.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
In one version of this tradition, as it used to go,
girls and women would secretly mark the apples and put
them in a barrel of water. Then potential matches would
dunk their heads into the water and bite into an
apple as a way to look into romantic futures or
bring people together. However, in some parts of Scotland, bobbing
(23:32):
for apples once and still does. Listeners please write in
if you know share the same name as the practice
of dunking women.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
In water to test if they were witches.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Yeah, that makes sense and that's how apple.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's also interesting to me. Again, this all
makes sense in terms of a game people would play,
but it's also kind of like teenagers being shy about
asking out somebody. Oh yeah, so there's that element as well.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
On the other hand, there's snap apple.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
This one is a Halloween tradition also from the British
Aisles that has roots and paganism.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Here's how it went.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
The goal was to snag an apple in your teeth
without using your hands, instead of dunking your head into water.
The apple was attached to one end of a stick,
while a burning candle was attached to the other end.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
The stick itself was.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Dangled from a string and then the whole thing was
spun around.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
The player then tried to.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Get the apple, but failure might mean a candle in
your face.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Whoo.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Getting the apple first could either mean you were going
to be happy in love or that you'd be the
first to be married. A similar, related version of this
game called for suspending a hoop from the ceiling. The
hoop was adorned with various candies, peppers, breads, cakes, and apples.
Depending on what food the player got, it foretold the
nature of their marriage, like spicy or sweet.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
I don't like any of those games.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
There's some risk involved, for sure, I guess I would
rather have the ladder than but still.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah, yeah, Well, as our friend and coworker Laura likes
to say, they didn't have Netflix back then, So find
your own entertainment, I suppose so.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
One tradition claimed that you would take an apple to
the mirror, shine a candle in it, and eat the apple,
which would cause your future husband over your shoulder to
appear Tuta. That sounds like a bloody merry game, are there?
And another you'd cut an apple into nine pieces, and
after you'd eaten the eighth, your lover would.
Speaker 5 (25:43):
Appear to ask for the ninth. All of these things
are how the hell did you get in my house.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Bro they do sound I mean, for someone who watches
a lot of horror movies, this doesn't sound romantic. However,
like I said, some of them were. It just something
like Bloody Mary. It was kind of freaky. But okay,
enough about apples, let's talk about nuts. Nuts were also
(26:10):
used for seeing into the future to figure out who
you were going to marry. In some places, Halloween may
have been called nutcrack Night or the Sacrifice of the Nuts,
because they were used so much in these sort of
future attempts at seeing into the future. Women would name
the nuts and put them in the fire. If the
nuts cooked together and smoothly, that was good for your
(26:33):
chances with that person the nut was named after. If
the nuts jumped and cracked, not so good, not looking good.
Another belief held at this time was that if a
man brought a woman walle nuts, it was true love,
which again it feels like if the man knew that,
then yeah, it's.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
Just like right right, I did.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I mean, with all of these there's a lot of
historical distortion of trying to understand what people believed back
at this time, and a lot of different accounts. And
I did read one where it was actually the opposite,
and if the nuts cooked slowly and together, it meant
boring times ahead for you with that person. But if
they jumped in practice gonna be really exciting and fun.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
So the bit about him bringing you nuts, it's kind
of a little more of what I had thought of
as a kid, like I had two to three specific
things that my future husband would do for me for
me to know that he was the one, And I
did have that, and it was very specific.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
It has not happened.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
That sounds like practical magic territory.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
You're getting You're right, You're right. I think about that.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
But yeah, as a kid like, these are the things
that I know that I love. And if he does
these two things, because I had two specific, very specific things.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
Then I know he's the one.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Which makes me kind of gag a little bit, but
hey whatever, a little bit nauseous on that one. But anyway,
So let's talk about cabbage, types of cabbage or once.
I feel like this is very Korean for some reason,
I don't know why. I feel like a lot of
Asian food just it just has all the cabbage. So
I'm like, okay, this feels right, so it ties with
(28:19):
cabbage or once believed to have Halloween love predicting properties too.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
What a delight? I love cabbage.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
So I'm not sure about these things. But here's a
fun vague one. Great women would go into fields pulling
up stocks of kill, examining them for things like link, girth, taste,
weight to kind of get an idea of what their
relationship with their future spouse would be.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
Light. So is it kind of phallic? Am I pictoring
this right? Am I wrong? Or is it just about
the entire relationship? Do I just have a dirty mind?
Speaker 4 (28:55):
It could be either or.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
It was a lot of like a lot of its
wordplay right, like if it's long, then the relationship will
last long.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Oh see, I was completely darny.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
So lots of earth clinging to the roots were often
interpreted as a substantial dowry.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
Didn't the dowry come from the woman?
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I think, yeah, I think. So he's supposed to be
the woman's family.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
Okay, so this is for guys too, then.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
No, I think it was like I would assume that
would I would at the time, you would interpret that
as getting married to somebody higher up?
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Okay, kid, ask for a bigger dowry.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Okay, so if a woman was looking to live a
bit more on the wild side, she could steal a
cabbage and see who she met on the way home.
And over in Ireland and Newfoundland, the dish colcannon made
of cabbage and potatoes. People would hide a ring and
button underneath it, and whoever found the ring was going
to get married soon, and the button portended you would
(30:01):
never marry. Say it can be yeah, I guess so, yes,
I don't want to be married. That is a really
interesting reaction from me because it's supposed to be how
it's supposed to be seen, right, But yes, I am absolutely.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
Parsons was like, I don't want to be married. That
sounds awful.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, well, I mean not to harp on this point
too much, but it was. It's still a big deal now,
don't get me wrong, but back then it was a
much bigger right.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
Woman's value was in marriage, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yes, and also as a game, you know, sort of
similar to old maid. And this is still something we
have to shape today culturally.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
But like, there's nothing worse or scarier than being old
and married woman.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
So I can imagine at a party.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
On social media being like this is not even be
alone like it's the worst thing to put on someone.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
They're like, Okay, cool, it's.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Fine, I'm good. Yeah, I think yeah. And that's just
the sampling.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
There are so many of these, and these were Halloween focus.
But again, listeners, if you've got some or if you've
played them, let us know. We did want to talk
(31:24):
briefly about costumes. And we've done several episodes in the
past around women's costumes and even the history of Halloween
and especially here in America and the commercialization of it
and how women were heavily involved in the early days.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
So this is going to be a much more modern look.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Also, thanks again to Jessica who suggested we look into this.
So there has been some recent research around gender differences
and costumes and why these differences matter. The researchers duck
through sixteen hundred costumes in this recent research on two
online costumes superstore websites sites that have a fairly strict
line between men's costumes and women's costumes, same with boys
(32:03):
and girls. Some of the findings of this research weren't surprising.
Women's costumes are tighter, sexier, and if that wasn't what
a woman wanted, there weren't many options outside of that.
We've all heard the arguments, I'm sure around why do
women always have to wear sexy costumes? It's slut a weird?
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
But if the only options for women are sexy, which
shouldn't really be an issue, if that's something the person
in question wants to wear, then we're limiting what women
can dress as and then judging them for it. In
the words of one of the researchers, Aaron Hippel, the
issue isn't really that adult women are wearing sexy costumes.
Women should be allowed to choose what we wear all
(32:45):
year round. The issue is that there are limited choices.
If one shops on the women's side of the Halloween
sales floor divide, the choices are very limited. U.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
So it sends this message that women and girls should
be sexy, that they're looks are our front and center
and should be front and center, and that their bodies
are for consumption for the mail.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Gays.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Again, if you want to dress sexually, totally should a.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Big believer in that. But it's the issue of options.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
Right, And they've got numbers to back this up too.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
So they found eighty eight percent of women's costumes showed
skin compared to sixteen percent of men's. The number is
sixty eight percent for girls compared to one percent of boys.
So since for a good chunk of the people who
are celebrating Halloween are celebrating it in public, Halloween falls
in cooler months, that means options for comfort and warmth
(33:43):
are limited unless you are like me and you get
a onesie and you're like, nah, I'm good bro in
my Panda onesie.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
I have had so many cold halloweens. I remember there
was a cold.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Snap in Atlanta, Oh, when I was in college, so
you know, many years ago, and just being so cold
and uncomfortable and going home because my costume was very skimpy.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Yes, right.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
And on top of that, ninety three percent of women's
costumes over tight, even uncomfortably so, compared to the twenty
eight percent of men's And that's forty nine percent of
girls versus five percent four boys.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yes, I mean I had a friend that almost passed
out once from her tight Harley Quinn outfit.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
So you can get really uncomfortably tight, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
For those that are just like pre manufactured, obviously very
cheaply made costumes is typically the worst material size, like
for young preprebescent girls, and the fact that's thin see
through not necessarily on purpose, it's just the way it is.
It's like this is the worst combination of costuming, or
(34:52):
they're ridiculously expensive and I'm like, I'm not spending one
hundred and fifty dollars on that antique.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yes, right, well yeah, I mean that's another good point
is if comfort isn't clearly isn't a priority for women's costumes,
and it's again kind of sending this message that it's
not about you know, and it's.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
About how you look and how other people see you.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Right.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
So in interviews, the researchers described how they would have
to go through several pages of women's costumes before finding
one that wasn't sexualized, whereas for men, the very first
option wasn't nice. This finding put out numbers that demonstrate
just how big this gender gap is. And I was
just thinking about this too, like if you think about
(35:40):
even historical levels of costumes, they're all made sexy, and
you're like, that was That's not what it was. You
kind of have this moment of trying to figure out
why something that is already nice has begun even beyond
and then we won't talk about the cultural appropriation that
happens within these costumes, but how they're also sexualized. I
(36:01):
was thinking about there was just a recent argument on
TikTok because I'm now officially on TikTok all the time and.
Speaker 5 (36:07):
I need to ban myself from it.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
But whatever, the whole idea of why people are arguing
with other people about why can't I dress up as Pocahontas,
why can't I dress up as Mulan and being there
to be like, it's not the point that you may
have really liked these what you know of as Disney characters,
but the appropriation of what you're doing and what you're
trying to do, especially when we talk about indigenous communities,
(36:31):
Hey watch it.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
And then especially the.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Overly sexualized tones of these costumes and what you're doing
it for is not because you're doing it because you
appreciate these individuals and you see them as iconic. You're
doing them because you're being a sexy version of something
that is known, and that's disgusting.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
On so many levels.
Speaker 4 (36:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, And it's it's interesting how it's such a big,
accepted kind of thing about like women's costumes will be
sexy that I think that. Just the other day I
heard like three for jokes about it, you know, sexy
crayons or sex just like random object right and it's sexy.
Speaker 4 (37:08):
Right, Yeah, And I know.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I've heard, And I suppose there could also be an
argument that this is one of the only times of
the year women feel it's acceptable to dress as sexy
as their heart desires, which is also a problem. Most
likely all these things are going on at once. I
remember one year I dressed in a cute what I
was like, modest outfit and went around telling everyone I
was tired of having sexy costumes, only sexy costume options.
(37:34):
I just remember being at this party and being like,
already kind of going off about this.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
So I'm a proponent of being really silly, and that's
kind of one of the things that I try to
do for Halloween. And there have been some moments of
like me trying to be sexy did not pull off
really well, and I was like, I don't feel comfortable
in feeling like something that I am not on the constant,
and that also again the bigger conversation of being sexualized
(38:03):
fetishized as well as just not having confidence.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
So it's all kind of a layered bunch. But the
few times that I have I'm like, this is really bad.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
So one of the costumes that I did because as
an Asian person in a white community, I always felt
like I couldn't dress as anything and be that, Like
I couldn't be the Asian version of something like that
just felt wrong and felt weird. And I will say
that because it felt like I was trying to put
myself in the hierarchy, trying to be white. Not because
I didn't want to be one of the white people.
(38:33):
It was because I was ashamed for not being white,
so I couldn't possibly be accepted as white. So that's
again a different conversation. So I dressed up as a
Geisha is being an Asian partment like, oh, this is
one thing that I can be that can be kind
of sexy. And then coming back to realize, holy, I'm
fitting into that same narrative of sexualizing and fetishratizing women
with this whole moment of the memoirs of Geisha coming out.
Speaker 5 (38:56):
And be like this was written by a white man.
Do we really want to go into all this?
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Like this is all of those things, but coming back
to realizing, even though it is kind of more accepted
because I am at least an Asian woman doing it,
I had two white friends do it with me. By
the way, the whole big conversation in that that wasn't
their fault. It was my idea, I will say to that,
But it was problematic then and problematic now. Be going
(39:20):
back to looking at it and being like, oh, yeah, okay,
I did bad and even though I am Asian, this
was bad on me as well, and that bigger narrative
of why do I feel like the only things that
are sexy are a fantasization of what men think of
Asian women, and which is what it can be dangerous
for Asian women, Like there's such a bigger narrative of
(39:43):
this conversation that it's okay to be sexy, be the
sexy creon if you want to, and you feel a
fit about it, go ahead your sexy self in that,
but have an understanding that, yes, there is a lot
of backlash, and that's the bigger conversation of what it is,
especially for women once again to sometimes feed into the
stereotype that can be really harmful or if you're a
(40:05):
white person being like, but I want to be a
squid gaze person.
Speaker 5 (40:09):
Please don't do the eyes. Please don't do that. Don't
be racist. That is racist. That is not good.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah, no, no, no, no no, And we have I
mean for something that feels on its surface level very frivolous.
There are so many aspects of this, and we've talked
about a few before, and I've talked about how sometimes
I feel really self conscious when I do like my
winter Soldier outfit, which I don't think is very sexy,
(40:36):
but it's slightly sexy, and kids see that and it's like,
you know, I like it and I feel good in it,
but I know that kids are observing that, and they're
observing how men might treat me in that, and then.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
That's makes me feel weird, that big strange.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
That's again the conversation of like, why are we not
putting the responsibility on men?
Speaker 4 (40:55):
Yes? Absolutely, mm hmm right. It shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Again, you shouldn't be like, oh, I'm this object for
you to just treat however you want to treat. But
it does turn into that, and I hate when kids
see it because it's just like I don't want to contribute.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
And you're right, and it becomes that that's the lesson
of the story, not the other problem of the fact
that you have been taught as a child and or
the parent has been teaching the child. Oh see, the girl,
don't do that, because she's the problem. And that's not
the truth in this at all. And of course, and
I know I'm preaching to the choir when we talk
about all of this, but this again same like stripped
(41:35):
down of the fact that if done appropriately, everything has
been in that caveat. If done appropriately and you feel
sexy and you feel good about it, then wonderful. Let's
talk about the fact that that is not an open
invitation for us to be addled. If you want to
look from afar and appreciate, because sure, maybe they put
(41:59):
some I'm in that outfit and do want compliments? Okay,
if they don't, if they're uncomfortable by you, then don't.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah, yep, never touch, Always ask before you take a picture. Anyway, Yes, yes,
And I was also thinking, I guess there's an argument
that in our entertainment, a lot of women's costumes are
more sexualized.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
They're costuming in general.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
And if Halloween costumes are at least in part based
on entertainment.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Then it filters into that too.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
That doesn't explain things like sexy Bernie costume, but it
does explain a lot of uh that sexy Bernie meme costume.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Mysel the other day.
Speaker 5 (42:36):
Yeah, I just saw a sexy ted lasso costume.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Oh and I didn't know I had. I had a
moment of huh.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
See, yeah, I guess my thing would be, is there
a non sexy women's ted lassus?
Speaker 5 (42:50):
I've seen a few.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Yes, yeah, couseplaying just straight right, But could you like
the sto.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
So the sexy I will say, the sexy ted lasso.
She may on her own. That's pretty good.
Speaker 4 (43:01):
I'm awesome.
Speaker 5 (43:04):
But I don't know why that. It doesn't enter my
head to do things. I was like, yeah, that's pretty good.
Like that's all I could think.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Saw on people's minds, that's for sure. So going back
to this research, these are not the only findings they had.
They also discovered women and girls costumes rarely come with masks.
One percent and four percent of women's and girls respectively
come with masks, compared to thirty five percent and forty
six percent of men's and boys. Why researcher Laurie Hier
(43:33):
speculates we found that girls and women's costumes provided less
coverage and accentuated the wear's own physical attractiveness as the
character herself rather than her costume character, so that she
became the featured subject. It seems that girl's costumes had
to fulfill demands for feminine ornamental display. She must not
simply be a princess. She must display herself as pretty
(43:53):
in her princess costume. On the other hand, costumes for
boys and men put the alternate identity and character at
the forefront. Hires went on. Costumes marketed to girls and
women consistently promise that she will look cute, sexy, pretty,
and all eyes will be on her, whereas costumes marketed
towards boys typically promise that they will be strong and
tough or scary and gross and then yeah. I read
(44:17):
another interesting article about this. I wasn't sure how much
of waiting to put in it, but they were saying, like,
you know, the original intent of Halloween, which we are
way off of what it was originally, was that you
were supposed to hide your face and like hide your identity,
and that was the costume. So that you know, ghost
or spirits can find you. I do think that's interesting,
(44:38):
and I mean, it's just hard for me to like
make that argument in our modern times when we've just gone.
Speaker 4 (44:44):
So far away from that.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
But that is an interesting point when it comes to
these boys costumes having so much more coverage and mask
whereas women's and girls generally don't. Right.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
I will say one of my favorite costumes that I
did as the Grudge Ghost, and I just follow people
around making the noise oh freaky.
Speaker 5 (45:08):
And I stay in character so I'm super annoying.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
Oh I'm sure you know, like is no longer scary.
Speaker 3 (45:16):
It's well, no, I still did enough that freaked people
out and they would all say stop, and I'd be like,
I appreciate your dedication, thank you. So another study found
that costumes of strong feminist historical icons are lacking when
it comes to costume stores, which is why you'll find
(45:39):
article after article instructing women and young girls how to
diy them. I definitely saw plenty of like Rosie the
Reveter and of course RBG with the necklace and all
of that. I've seen so many of that, but I
have also seen amazing diy like these parents are doing
for their young kids. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's amazing.
(46:01):
I knew that costume.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
I would say that was probably when I was researching this.
That was a good chunk of the articles on the
early Google pages where you know, like.
Speaker 4 (46:11):
Don't want your young girl to wear sexy costume.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Here's eight costume ideas of famous historical female figures and
how to make them, which is another argument that we
could make and has been made. It's that that's better
for the environments. Right. So, yeah, there's a lot going
on in this conversation.
Speaker 5 (46:31):
A lot more than you thought.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Annie. Well, listeners, we would love to know if you've
got any cool costumes you would like to share. Please
please please let us know whether you're celebrating or not.
We hope you have a lovely, safe weekend. And yes,
if you would like to email us, you can. We
would love to hear from you. Our email is Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us
(46:52):
on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at
Steffon Never sold you thinks It's always too Our super producer, Christina.
Speaker 5 (46:58):
Happy Halloween, see yes and.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Thanks to you for listening. Steffon Never Told You his
production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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