August 17, 2024 • 31 mins
Deeply personal and emotional, forgiveness is also deeply difficult, fraught, and when it comes it to women, sometimes weaponized. In this classic episode, Anney and Samantha debunk some forgiveness myths, discuss how-tos, and dig into the potential health benefits of letting go.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Stuff I Never told you Production by
Heart Radio, and today we are bringing back an episode
we did a couple of years ago about forgiveness, and
(00:27):
I wanted to bring this one back because I've had
several conversations lately with friends about it and it's been
fascinating to me having these discussions with them and having
I just remember doing this episode and it being really
enlightening to me because at the time I was struggling
(00:49):
with stuff with my dad and I was like, well,
it felt like I had to forgive, But then since then,
I have forgiven and it did feel like amazing. But
that is obviously not something you owe anybody, and that
is one of the things this episode really drove home
to me.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
And I appreciated that it was this is about you
and what feels good to you or feels right to you.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
But it was just fascinating to me that I've had
at least three conversations about forgiveness in less than a
month that were intense and in depth. So I wanted
to bring back this classic episode. Please enjoy.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I've never told you a protection of iHeartRadio's how stuff works. Today,
we're actually tackling something that I tried to do a
year ago. I started working on this outline a year
ago and was so confused, used and torn about a
(02:02):
lot of things that were happening in my life. And uh,
this whole idea of what we're talking about today, forgiveness, right,
So it's been sitting in our folder for over a year.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, it's been there since I've even started.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, I would like start on it and then get
frustrated and go away from it. But it has been
on my mind a lot lately, and we did want
to talk about forgiveness today, especially since we're in this
holiday's season as we recorded, and it's supposed to be
purportedly a time of forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Oh. I thought, that's just when you tell people things,
you know, like the love actually bit.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Oh God, don't talk to me about love. Actually no,
I really don't know that much about love actually, other
than Alan Rickman was a cheater.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So they all confess whatever the truths are. And yeah,
you're supposed to be honest. Okay, that's where the whole
like signage.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Right, right, Like Hey, I know you're.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Married to my best friend, but hey, I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
We talked about that forever ago, and we actually got
all our response. People have strong opinions about that movie.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
They do.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Apparently a lot of people do like it.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
No, you know, as long.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
As you can recognize some problematic things, that's fine all comedies. Yeah, true,
later episode, but for this one trigger warning before we
get started, for brief mentions of rape and sexual assault
and domestic violence, but very brief. We're just going to
talk about how that can play into forgiveness. And I'm
someone who I've discovered is terrible at forgiveness.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I have a huge tolerance.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
You can do a lot of things before I say,
you know what, You've done enough, and then I like
wipe my hands of you.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
I cannot forgive you. And so I have never actually.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Been to the point of granting forgiveness. And I am
at the point now where I do want to. I'm
in the stage that I want to, but I have
an emotional block around it. Like even if mentally I
think you know what, I'm okay, I want to move on,
(04:13):
there's something that I can't, like go up emotionally, so
that's kind of where I am. And a year ago
I was running on the beltline, which is one of
my favorite things, and the song It's Quiet Uptown from
Hamilton came on. If you've never heard that song, it's
about Hamilton and his wife Eliza and the idea of
(04:33):
forgiveness because he cheated on her. And I know a
lot of people are going to write in that we
didn't mention that in our political scandal episode.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
It's been talked about a lot, but if you guys
want us.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
To talk about it, I happily, happily will I love Hamilton.
But anyway, I've heard that song one hundreds of times,
probably not even exaggeration one hundred times, but that time
something about it stopped me in my tracks and I
started crying because of this idea of forgiveness and the
power of it, and something just clicked and it's ever
(05:01):
since then, it's just kind of been in the back
of my brain. And I do want to say before
we get into this, forgiveness is deeply, deeply, deeply personal.
We are not in the business of telling anyone that
they should forgive someone, and no one else should be either.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
There's a long history of women being.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Gaslighted to forgive, or that concept of forgiveness being weaponized
against women, and we are going to touch on that,
but I just want to say I think forgiveness has
gotten wrapped up in it's a good thing to do,
and therefore you should do it. There are benefits to it,
but you really don't have to if you don't want to,
and in fact, doing so can be detrimental. All right,
(05:40):
So let's start with some basics from the Greater Good magazine.
Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to
release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or
group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually
deserve your forgiveness. And that's key because I used to
get myself in an unhealth the logic trap of deserve.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Oh they are not the person deserved it.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
But it's not about them and what they do or
do not deserve. It is about you and what you want,
which is actually a great segue into what forgiveness isn't.
It does not mean forgetting or minimizing, or excusing or condoning.
It does not mean reconciliation or accepting continued wrongdoing, and
it doesn't free the other party from being accountable to
(06:26):
the law. It is about letting go of negative emotions
that the forgiver wants to let go self. Forgiveness can
also be extremely liberating, extremely.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah, and confusing. Forgiveness and reconciliation is common and inaccurate.
Waiting for someone else to reconcile is disempowering, and some
things can't be paid back, it cannot be reconciled. Equating
forgiveness with reconciliation would trap someone in that situation in
a disruptive state of unforgiveness. Forgiveness is also not the
only path to closure of moving on. Forgiving when you're
(06:57):
not ready is really detrimental and forgivens. This is generally
understood to hinge on two pieces of information, relationship value
of the wrongdoer and probability of future wrongdoings.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
And our culture.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Seems to be completely torn when it comes to forgiveness.
I mean, I've seen it as being foolish, are we submissive?
I've seen it on the opposite end, being called something
like your duty. It's wrapped up in religion and philosophy
in some cases, in relationships and politics. At times, we
may feel pressure from other people to forgive because it's
(07:33):
the right thing to do, in quotes that it would
doing so would make you a good person. And at
the same time, we have so many sayings about forgiveness
to airs to be human, to forgive is divine, To
understand all is to forgive all. It just seems we're
all very conflicted about this idea forgiveness. A study conducted
(07:56):
by psychologists Charlotte van Eyen Vitfilit found that asking participants
to remember an instance when someone had offended, hurt, or
mistreated them resulted in a whole range of physical responses
from increased heart rate, blood pressure, muscle tension, and sweating.
People described the experience as unpleasant. It made them angry,
(08:17):
It made them sad, It made them feel like they
had less control. When they were asked to imagine forgiving
their offender, these physical responses relaxed.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
A survey of fifteen.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Hundred Americans about how much they practiced forgiveness revealed that
middle aged and older people forgave at higher rates when
compared to their younger counterparts, and the researchers found a
relationship between forgiveness and increased mental health and older respondents.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
So, grudges have been linked with increased risk of cardiovascial
disease and in various ways can compromise our immune systems.
Grudges can impact future relationships and diminished ability to enjoy
the present. Forgiveness is important in terms of emotional and
disengaging from trauma.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Forgiving is often emotion and painful.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
A twenty sixteen study divided a group of one hundred
and thirty five students who had recently experienced bullying into
three scenario groups, forgiveness, revenge, and avoidance. The researchers found
that both the forgiveness and avoidance groups didn't feel stronger,
but they did experience a decrease in negative emotions during
the course of the experiment. The revenge group felt a
(09:22):
decrease in empowerment, ability to cope, and it self esteem. However,
the forgiveness group experienced the most stress.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
This seems to demonstrate just.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
How difficult and stressful that the act of forgiveness is,
and that healing takes time. Forgiveness may be better in
the long run, but in the short term it's more
painful than avoidance or revenge. The researcher suggested that perhaps
a mixed approach is best avoidance until long enough time
has passed. Distances passed, then should you so desire forgiveness
(09:52):
that smart.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Another study found that in the context of relationships, people
who are more likely to pursue revenge instead of forgiveness
or more likely to go through negative consequences and conflict. Ultimately,
the takeaway was it's really beneficial to have tools and
strategies ready to deal with the rough times. One of
these things can be forgiveness. An analysis of seventeen studies
around relationships and forgiveness found that after the betrayal of
(10:15):
a partner, the relationship goals often change, becoming more about
evening the score, winning arguments, and other competitive things like that.
So forgiveness is suggested as a way to return to
more balanced relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, and again, we're not telling anybody to forgive if
they don't want to, and of course people are complicated.
Some researchers suggests people that are generally happier can more
easily forgive and report higher levels of happiness. When people
are feeling better about their transgressor like after an apology
or some type of physical restitution. They usually experience a
(10:49):
decrease in physical arousal meaning like symptoms, high blood pressure,
and stuff like that, which makes them more likely to forgive. However,
we know abusers use this to continue cycles of abuse.
So yeah, so something to keep an eye on.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, that's definitely a manipulative tactic. Other studies have found
decreased stress levels and positive health benefits just when adopting
a forgiving attitude. Since stress has a cumulative effect, these
benefits were more pronounced in older folks.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Some studies suggest that the part of the brain associated
with forgiveness is the limbic system, not the part of
the brain associated with reasoned judgment as previously thought. The
act of forgiveness has long been thought to be an
emotional one, and it is, but recent studies indicate it
is a cognitive one as well. Therefore, experts recommend cognitive
reframing if you're looking to forgive. Evolutionarily, revenge is easier
(11:42):
than forgiveness. The easiest way to deal with someone who
would harm you is to avoid them or to hit back.
According to psychologists, revenge is unique in that it is
motivated by hate, which makes it different than anger. And
the belief that just by existing someone is doing you harm.
Revenge is often disproportionate to the original act that inspired
(12:03):
the revenge.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
That's so many movies.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
I know.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I was about to say I had to write a
paper on this in French in college about how why
is it most of our action movies start with the
main character's wife getting murdered and then he kills everyone everywhere, right,
and it's like.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
So violent and over the top.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Oh, I was about to talk about never mind because
it's too many, because there was like I was thinking
about The Joker, but I don't want to say anything
that could be a spoiler for those who haven't seen
it or want to see it. All of that. But yeah, yeah,
kind of. I think everybody knows that there's always a backstory.
That's all in the creation of Batman alone. We know
that backstory, right, revenges.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I have to say, I get that peal of revenge stories,
but they do make me kind of uncomfortable. Yeah, it's
like it's something about them as always sort of unsettled me.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, they're dark. I guess they're very dark. Yeah for sure. Yeah,
so let's talk about the how to forgive, right, psychologist
Robert Enwright proposed that forgiveness has four steps, recognizing the anger,
deciding to forgive, building up compassion for the wrong doer,
and then letting go of negative emotions. Being specific really helped.
(13:17):
You can only really forgive for what people have done
to you.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, and reading that was helpful for me because the
example they gave is if you were as a child
you witnessed your say, father abuse your mother, you can't
forgive him for doing that. You can forgive him for
the pain and fear and just hurt that he caused you.
(13:41):
But it has to be specific to what happened to you.
So if you are the abused, yes, you are the
one to forgive, right. Yeah, it's a bit different when
it comes to forgiving yourself self forgiveness. Accepting responsibility is important,
but holding onto shame and guilt for too long isn't helpful.
The first step is similar or recognizing that you are
in the wrong and your actions caused pain. Then you
(14:04):
dig a bit deeper, identifying why it happened and what
was in your control and what wasn't in your control.
Pinpoint lessons you learned and how you can avoid a
similar situation.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
In the future.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
When you've taken these steps forgive yourself allowed or on paper,
then if another party is involved, apologize. We're going to
get more into apology later, but you apologize genuinely and
not expecting anything from the other person, and then take
steps to make things right. If you're looking to forgive
(14:36):
but struggling, there are support groups and counseling out there
that can help. Some other tips are practicing empathy, reflecting
on times you've hurt others and what was going on
in your head when you did right in your journal
if you have a journal. If you don't, I recommend
getting one or meditation. Also, if you can't forgive, patience,
(14:57):
be patient. It is hard and it shakes time.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, and again we're not saying that you have to Yep,
this is completely based on you. And also if, and
this is a big if the wrong doer shows no
signs of changing, it is toxics. It is an unhealthy
relationship and it will always be unhealthy.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, distance from someone like that. You can still forgive
if you would like to, but distance is key.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
That person will keep hurting you.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Because you're forgiving doesn't mean you have to repeat the harm.
That's happening to you.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yes, exactly, And we did want to look specifically at
some some studies around women and forgiveness. But first we
have a quick break for word from a sponsor and
(15:50):
we're back, Thank you sponsor.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Okay. So, there actually have been a.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Lot of studies looking into this. One of them is
from twenty eleven. It's a study from the University of
the Basque Country and it looked into gender differences and
forgiveness and the study found that women are better at forgiving.
The study authors suspect that women are more empathetic than men.
That was one of the reasons they gave, which is
(16:14):
key when it comes to forgiveness. Women, especially older women,
seem to reap more of the benefits of forgiveness as well.
Even women who reported feeling that they themselves were unforgiven,
they also felt those benefits.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I think holding on the things is just tiring. That's
what I've learned as I'm getting older, and I'm like,
oh God, I'm just tired of being angry at you.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
So one study showed that forgiveness can make men feel weak,
and that more forgiving men suffer from higher levels of
depression as compared to less forgiving men self. Forgiving men
fared better, but forgiving others didn't show the same positive link.
The scientists behind the study believe that because forgiveness is
seen as a more feminine thing, it is painted as
weak and in general, for a variety of reasons, men
(16:56):
are less forgiving than women when.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
It comes to sexual abuse against women. There are a
lot of misconceptions that to forgive means that you don't
report sexual assault, or that if you do, you haven't
forgiven the person, or that forgiving someone means that.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
You're totally cool with them.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
None of these things are true, and pressing women to
forgive an abuser who is unrepetent and still in their
lives is dangerous. Sharon Lamb's essay Women Abuse and Forgiveness
a Special Case argues that women are a special class
of victims impossible forgivers, and that women quote may have
some particular reasons not to forgive, and she goes on
(17:35):
to ask why is it that we have so much
trouble with.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
The woman who will not forgive?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Janis Hawkins's essay The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Psychoanalytic and cultural perspectives on forgiveness also digs into the
feminism of forgiveness and goes out of her way to
make the point that forgiveness is neither good or bad.
She writes, as oppressed groups gain the strength to speak
up and claim new rights, including their right to disengage
abusive relationships, the powerful rediscover the salutary virtue of forgiveness. Basically,
(18:06):
forgiveness benefits them for hurting other people.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Right, and this brings us to gaslighting.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Women are frequently made to feel guilty if they don't forgive.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Scorned, bitter cold.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
These are ways to stigmatize unforgiving women and pressure them
to forgive. It's another way of dismissing women as emotional
and invalidating their probably completely legitimate reactions. It flips the
story so that the woman is to blame. She's just bitter, overreacting, irrational,
sensitive drama queen petty. It is on her. Any negative
(18:43):
emotions she's experiencing are her fault. She should be the
better person and forgive again. Forgiving or not forgiving. It's
the choice, very personal one.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, So we've seen examples with the Kavanaugh case in
itself that like it's so long ago, he was just
a kid. Why can't you let that go? You're just
being petty? Is so absurd that they're that more likely
to call her names rather than keep accountability for those
who were responsible for the action.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
When Selma Hayek wrote in The New York Times about
her reasons for not speaking up about Harvey Weinstein's sexual harassment,
one of the reasons she gave was that she was
proud of her capacity for forgiveness. And this essay was
when she was sort of being like, this is why
I didn't do it, And I know that these are
I should have or I not should have, But it
(19:32):
was her looking back on why she.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Didn't, right, And that makes perfect sense. Yeah. So some
arguments put forth that for some women trying to distance
themselves from the angry feminist stereo type, they might be
more forgiving, which we know that's always a really bad negative.
A similar argument can has been made that black people
are asked and expected to forgive white racist without ever
getting so much as an apology or even recognition, which
(19:55):
we can talk about with the slavery and just people
being like, why you keep bringing that up, and it's like,
what the hell y'all? Yeah, really, why because it's important
and we need to acknowledge the trauma that it has
caused and it still continues to cause. So let's talk
about religion because I think that's one of the big
things where we talk about forgiveness. Yes, there's sixty two
(20:16):
passages in the Bible that include the word forgive, and
then there's twenty seven passages that contain the word forgiveness.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
That is a lot, fair a lot.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Some religions do connect forgiveness with being a good person,
especially for women. There have been multiple instances of numerous
women reporting sexual abuse by church leaders to other church
leaders and being told they must forgive to get into heaven,
and by forgive they meant don't tell anybody. Right, in
some interpretations of Christianity, people can't forgive it all.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Only God can forgive. So there's a lot going on there.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
There are a lot of pressures here around this idea
of forgiveness.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
I think it's just all.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Idea in it self forgiveness and what it's supposed to do,
and it is kind of absolving people who have committed
sins essentially, and I think it is a good balance
to understand what is right for you.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yes, yes, and we do have a little bit more
about that, but first we have one more quick break
for word from our sponsor.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
And we're back. Thank you sponsor.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
So I guess one of the biggest takeaways for me
is that I am going to reframe how I think
about forgiveness. We're going to make it all about me,
because in this case, I am the wrong and I'm
just gonna think of it almost like it has nothing
(21:59):
to do with that person. If you are the ones
seeking forgiveness, which can mean just apologizing and leaving the
other person the hell alone, make it all about them.
And yeah, a few situations are so black and white,
it's been for me. Everybody has such a specific story
and it's complex in its own way, so it's hard
(22:21):
to give really good specific advice. But here are some
general ideas that might help, and a quick note about
how to apologize. A good apology can open up a
dialogue and is the beginnings of re establishing trust, or
it can be. It entails that you show remorse, you
(22:42):
acknowledge that you caused hurt. It has to be sincere
and not flip it around to make it the other
person's fault, like it was just a joke.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I'm sorry you felt hurt.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I think that's probably one of the biggest sins when
it comes to apologies is that you make excuses.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
And I've done it too. You make excuses for your
behavior and make it like the other person was overreact.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Right, So if you're apologizing with it but yes, don't
do that, or if you're apologizing I'm sorry you right,
but you statements, go ahead and stop.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's better.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
A short apology is better than any kind of long
winded here's my excuse. A good apology also involves making amends,
providing something actionable to show you're serious, putting yourself in
the other person's shoes, and honestly trying to understand why
(23:34):
they were hurt. Then offer steps to make sure that
whatever it was doesn't happen again. Yes, do not make
it about you. Apologies also got to be said, are
sometimes hurtful and unwelcome. So if you're doing it to
make yourself feel better, that is not a good apology.
And also remember impact matters more than intention. I think
(23:58):
a lot of people get caught in that that trap
as well, and I can and have written a paper
on this.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
My infamous essay about doing the dishes.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
It was about a lot more than that, but I
use the dishes as a case study.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Nice I really don't like doing dishes. I really really don't.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
And then I've kind of noticed in my life I
feel like some people blame me for things, and I'm
not sure what they are. So it's hard to apologize,
or I'm not even sure that I need to apologize.
But this is a time when I need to remember
all of the episodes where we have sung the praises
of communication.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yes, always talk to each other yep. When one of
Bill Cosby's alleged victims was asked by Anderson Cooper, can
you forget something like this? Her response was, I forgave
Bill Cosby years ago for me. When you hold onto
resentment for someone like that, it's not hurting them, it's
only hurting you. And I think that's very valid for
(25:01):
all of us. I think I've felt the same way,
and I'm sure you have to when you have been
a victim from someone that you may never see again, yep,
that you have to forgive, maybe not even just forgive,
but let it go. Yeah, And that's the best you
can do for yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, I think that's recently. It came up in one
of my therapy sessions lately and she said there's a
quote like not forgiving is like drinking poison and expecting
the other person to die, or not not forgiving but
not letting go, because yeah, they probably in some cases
(25:37):
at least they don't care.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
It's not anything to them, right.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
It is difficult, though it's easier said thanne. Re understand that,
And I still have questions around forgiveness. I got caught
up in this whole idea of some things may just
truly be unforgivable. But I do think I want to forgive.
I think I'm in that stage. But before that I can,
(26:01):
I have to deal with a lot of the fallout
that I've been avoiding for so long. I think that's
the emotional block is that I've just been avoiding. And
apparently this is an idea that's been on my brain
for a very long time because one of my favorite
things I've written, the D and D character that I
played to finish out the end of the story.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I like that you were just having like rings on
across our death.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
To see the miniature. I have many of her.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
It's all about forgiveness or not forgiving, and revenge and redemption,
and it's interesting to see how it's evolved as I've
continued to write it. But that is about what we
have to say on forgiveness today. We would love to
hear from listeners any wisdom's truths or just stories they
(26:49):
have about forgiveness or not forgiveness, and we have heard
from some listeners already that we would like to read
here now. Marie wrote, I was super excited when I
saw you doing spooky episodes for October, especially the Female
Monsters episode. I just want to tell you about one
of my favorite books, which not only features a badass
monster eating primordial goddess who very often refers to herself
(27:11):
as a monster as a protagonist, but she's also got
a female romantic interest. The book is called The One
Who Eats Monsters by Casey Matthews.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
And it's an incredible book.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
As a recently out lesbian, I've been trying to consume
as much LGBTQ plus fiction as possible, mostly sci fi
fantasy literature involving lesbians. I've had to scour the internet
and bookstores to get my fix, and I've noticed that
there's definitely been an increase in the amount of representation
in fiction, especially among protagonists. Anyway, I just want to
tell you all about my favorite book. I'd love it
if you did an episode on queer literature or badass
(27:42):
lesbians in literature.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
We would love that too.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
And one of the reasons I wanted to read this
is listeners, if you've got some examples, send them our way.
I definitely have some I could contribute as well. And
then we have a letter from Marissa. My friend Marissa.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Out you like that?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
No, no, no, but she wrote this and I responded
like I do to any listener, as if I didn't
know her. So I hope you enjoyed that, MRSA. She wrote,
I have to throw my two cents in on my
experience with the opioid crisis. First, my background is a
traveling er nurse. At this point in my career, I've
worked in six different states Georgia, Massachusetts, California, Alasta, Colorado,
(28:24):
and Maine as a medical professional in the trenches of
this opioid epidemic. I can assure you this is truly
a problem everywhere. However, there is one er assignment that
stands out. This community was being devastated by heroin. Every
night we had at least a handful of od's overdoses.
This was a big seventy five bed er. Narcan had
(28:45):
to be so readily available that there were internasal narcan
rapid response boxes installed on the walls and strategic locations
all around the er. For instance, they had a box
and triage due to so many people being dropped off
in front with od's not breathing. All of the police,
firefighters and ems carried narcan and knew how to use it.
I would like to share a little narcan knowledge with you. First,
(29:07):
you must know what a drug half life is, the
time it takes the drug concentration to reach fifty percent
less than the starting dose in the body. I don't
want to get too technical, but essentially, heroin works longer
than the antidote narcannaloxone. Narcan brings them out of their
high fast, and many times these slumped over lifeless ODS
would reanimate rather violently and combatively. It's hard to rationalize
(29:29):
with an addict who's come violently out of their high
to stay there recommended four hours after narcan. So essentially
I'm trying to let anyone out there that has to
administered narkan know to keep watching your friend or loved one.
The half life of narcan is shorter than that of heroin,
so essentially you can be revived from the brink of
an od death. But if you leave too soon or
(29:50):
not watch can get into the same situation again. The
drug wave could still crash over you and take you under,
so continue to watch someone for several hours after administering narkan. Also,
Narcan naloxone emergency kits are available at almost every pharmacy
without a prescription. If you're using, please have this safety
plan in place. Go to your nearest pharmacy and get
(30:11):
an emergency kit. Make sure those around you while you're
using know where the narcan is and how to use it.
Call nine one one if the person is not breathing.
Those that have allergy reactions carry EpiPens epinephrine. If you're using,
you should carry narcan. Safe practice is all I want
to preach. Keep everything clean and have a safety plan.
Enough people have died. This epidemic is destroying families. Please
(30:32):
don't let it take your life. Wow, that's a lot
of good information. I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't
know that either. So thanks Marissa for our share fighting.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah, the good fight is a nurse. Thank you so
much for what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, and thanks for writing in, taking the time and
sharing that knowledge. And we would love to hear from
other listeners. Thanks to these two for writing in. If
you would like to write to us, you can Our
email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff
Podcast or on Instagram at Stuff We'll Never Told You.
(31:07):
Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, Hey yy,
and thanks to you for listening. Stuff Owner told you
the protection of iHeartRadio's how Stuff Works. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit our heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Stuff I Never told you Production by
Heart Radio, and today we are bringing back an episode
we did a couple of years ago about forgiveness, and
(00:27):
I wanted to bring this one back because I've had
several conversations lately with friends about it and it's been
fascinating to me having these discussions with them and having
I just remember doing this episode and it being really
enlightening to me because at the time I was struggling
(00:49):
with stuff with my dad and I was like, well,
it felt like I had to forgive, But then since then,
I have forgiven and it did feel like amazing. But
that is obviously not something you owe anybody, and that
is one of the things this episode really drove home
to me.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
And I appreciated that it was this is about you
and what feels good to you or feels right to you.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
But it was just fascinating to me that I've had
at least three conversations about forgiveness in less than a
month that were intense and in depth. So I wanted
to bring back this classic episode. Please enjoy.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I've never told you a protection of iHeartRadio's how stuff works. Today,
we're actually tackling something that I tried to do a
year ago. I started working on this outline a year
ago and was so confused, used and torn about a
(02:02):
lot of things that were happening in my life. And uh,
this whole idea of what we're talking about today, forgiveness, right,
So it's been sitting in our folder for over a year.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, it's been there since I've even started.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, I would like start on it and then get
frustrated and go away from it. But it has been
on my mind a lot lately, and we did want
to talk about forgiveness today, especially since we're in this
holiday's season as we recorded, and it's supposed to be
purportedly a time of forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Oh. I thought, that's just when you tell people things,
you know, like the love actually bit.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Oh God, don't talk to me about love. Actually no,
I really don't know that much about love actually, other
than Alan Rickman was a cheater.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So they all confess whatever the truths are. And yeah,
you're supposed to be honest. Okay, that's where the whole
like signage.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Right, right, Like Hey, I know you're.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Married to my best friend, but hey, I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
We talked about that forever ago, and we actually got
all our response. People have strong opinions about that movie.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
They do.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Apparently a lot of people do like it.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
No, you know, as long.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
As you can recognize some problematic things, that's fine all comedies. Yeah, true,
later episode, but for this one trigger warning before we
get started, for brief mentions of rape and sexual assault
and domestic violence, but very brief. We're just going to
talk about how that can play into forgiveness. And I'm
someone who I've discovered is terrible at forgiveness.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I have a huge tolerance.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
You can do a lot of things before I say,
you know what, You've done enough, and then I like
wipe my hands of you.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
I cannot forgive you. And so I have never actually.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Been to the point of granting forgiveness. And I am
at the point now where I do want to. I'm
in the stage that I want to, but I have
an emotional block around it. Like even if mentally I
think you know what, I'm okay, I want to move on,
(04:13):
there's something that I can't, like go up emotionally, so
that's kind of where I am. And a year ago
I was running on the beltline, which is one of
my favorite things, and the song It's Quiet Uptown from
Hamilton came on. If you've never heard that song, it's
about Hamilton and his wife Eliza and the idea of
(04:33):
forgiveness because he cheated on her. And I know a
lot of people are going to write in that we
didn't mention that in our political scandal episode.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
It's been talked about a lot, but if you guys
want us.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
To talk about it, I happily, happily will I love Hamilton.
But anyway, I've heard that song one hundreds of times,
probably not even exaggeration one hundred times, but that time
something about it stopped me in my tracks and I
started crying because of this idea of forgiveness and the
power of it, and something just clicked and it's ever
(05:01):
since then, it's just kind of been in the back
of my brain. And I do want to say before
we get into this, forgiveness is deeply, deeply, deeply personal.
We are not in the business of telling anyone that
they should forgive someone, and no one else should be either.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
There's a long history of women being.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Gaslighted to forgive, or that concept of forgiveness being weaponized
against women, and we are going to touch on that,
but I just want to say I think forgiveness has
gotten wrapped up in it's a good thing to do,
and therefore you should do it. There are benefits to it,
but you really don't have to if you don't want to,
and in fact, doing so can be detrimental. All right,
(05:40):
So let's start with some basics from the Greater Good magazine.
Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to
release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or
group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually
deserve your forgiveness. And that's key because I used to
get myself in an unhealth the logic trap of deserve.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Oh they are not the person deserved it.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
But it's not about them and what they do or
do not deserve. It is about you and what you want,
which is actually a great segue into what forgiveness isn't.
It does not mean forgetting or minimizing, or excusing or condoning.
It does not mean reconciliation or accepting continued wrongdoing, and
it doesn't free the other party from being accountable to
(06:26):
the law. It is about letting go of negative emotions
that the forgiver wants to let go self. Forgiveness can
also be extremely liberating, extremely.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah, and confusing. Forgiveness and reconciliation is common and inaccurate.
Waiting for someone else to reconcile is disempowering, and some
things can't be paid back, it cannot be reconciled. Equating
forgiveness with reconciliation would trap someone in that situation in
a disruptive state of unforgiveness. Forgiveness is also not the
only path to closure of moving on. Forgiving when you're
(06:57):
not ready is really detrimental and forgivens. This is generally
understood to hinge on two pieces of information, relationship value
of the wrongdoer and probability of future wrongdoings.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
And our culture.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Seems to be completely torn when it comes to forgiveness.
I mean, I've seen it as being foolish, are we submissive?
I've seen it on the opposite end, being called something
like your duty. It's wrapped up in religion and philosophy
in some cases, in relationships and politics. At times, we
may feel pressure from other people to forgive because it's
(07:33):
the right thing to do, in quotes that it would
doing so would make you a good person. And at
the same time, we have so many sayings about forgiveness
to airs to be human, to forgive is divine, To
understand all is to forgive all. It just seems we're
all very conflicted about this idea forgiveness. A study conducted
(07:56):
by psychologists Charlotte van Eyen Vitfilit found that asking participants
to remember an instance when someone had offended, hurt, or
mistreated them resulted in a whole range of physical responses
from increased heart rate, blood pressure, muscle tension, and sweating.
People described the experience as unpleasant. It made them angry,
(08:17):
It made them sad, It made them feel like they
had less control. When they were asked to imagine forgiving
their offender, these physical responses relaxed.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
A survey of fifteen.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Hundred Americans about how much they practiced forgiveness revealed that
middle aged and older people forgave at higher rates when
compared to their younger counterparts, and the researchers found a
relationship between forgiveness and increased mental health and older respondents.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
So, grudges have been linked with increased risk of cardiovascial
disease and in various ways can compromise our immune systems.
Grudges can impact future relationships and diminished ability to enjoy
the present. Forgiveness is important in terms of emotional and
disengaging from trauma.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Forgiving is often emotion and painful.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
A twenty sixteen study divided a group of one hundred
and thirty five students who had recently experienced bullying into
three scenario groups, forgiveness, revenge, and avoidance. The researchers found
that both the forgiveness and avoidance groups didn't feel stronger,
but they did experience a decrease in negative emotions during
the course of the experiment. The revenge group felt a
(09:22):
decrease in empowerment, ability to cope, and it self esteem. However,
the forgiveness group experienced the most stress.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
This seems to demonstrate just.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
How difficult and stressful that the act of forgiveness is,
and that healing takes time. Forgiveness may be better in
the long run, but in the short term it's more
painful than avoidance or revenge. The researcher suggested that perhaps
a mixed approach is best avoidance until long enough time
has passed. Distances passed, then should you so desire forgiveness
(09:52):
that smart.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Another study found that in the context of relationships, people
who are more likely to pursue revenge instead of forgiveness
or more likely to go through negative consequences and conflict. Ultimately,
the takeaway was it's really beneficial to have tools and
strategies ready to deal with the rough times. One of
these things can be forgiveness. An analysis of seventeen studies
around relationships and forgiveness found that after the betrayal of
(10:15):
a partner, the relationship goals often change, becoming more about
evening the score, winning arguments, and other competitive things like that.
So forgiveness is suggested as a way to return to
more balanced relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, and again, we're not telling anybody to forgive if
they don't want to, and of course people are complicated.
Some researchers suggests people that are generally happier can more
easily forgive and report higher levels of happiness. When people
are feeling better about their transgressor like after an apology
or some type of physical restitution. They usually experience a
(10:49):
decrease in physical arousal meaning like symptoms, high blood pressure,
and stuff like that, which makes them more likely to forgive. However,
we know abusers use this to continue cycles of abuse.
So yeah, so something to keep an eye on.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, that's definitely a manipulative tactic. Other studies have found
decreased stress levels and positive health benefits just when adopting
a forgiving attitude. Since stress has a cumulative effect, these
benefits were more pronounced in older folks.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Some studies suggest that the part of the brain associated
with forgiveness is the limbic system, not the part of
the brain associated with reasoned judgment as previously thought. The
act of forgiveness has long been thought to be an
emotional one, and it is, but recent studies indicate it
is a cognitive one as well. Therefore, experts recommend cognitive
reframing if you're looking to forgive. Evolutionarily, revenge is easier
(11:42):
than forgiveness. The easiest way to deal with someone who
would harm you is to avoid them or to hit back.
According to psychologists, revenge is unique in that it is
motivated by hate, which makes it different than anger. And
the belief that just by existing someone is doing you harm.
Revenge is often disproportionate to the original act that inspired
(12:03):
the revenge.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
That's so many movies.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
I know.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I was about to say I had to write a
paper on this in French in college about how why
is it most of our action movies start with the
main character's wife getting murdered and then he kills everyone everywhere, right,
and it's like.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
So violent and over the top.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Oh, I was about to talk about never mind because
it's too many, because there was like I was thinking
about The Joker, but I don't want to say anything
that could be a spoiler for those who haven't seen
it or want to see it. All of that. But yeah, yeah,
kind of. I think everybody knows that there's always a backstory.
That's all in the creation of Batman alone. We know
that backstory, right, revenges.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I have to say, I get that peal of revenge stories,
but they do make me kind of uncomfortable. Yeah, it's
like it's something about them as always sort of unsettled me.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, they're dark. I guess they're very dark. Yeah for sure. Yeah,
so let's talk about the how to forgive, right, psychologist
Robert Enwright proposed that forgiveness has four steps, recognizing the anger,
deciding to forgive, building up compassion for the wrong doer,
and then letting go of negative emotions. Being specific really helped.
(13:17):
You can only really forgive for what people have done
to you.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, and reading that was helpful for me because the
example they gave is if you were as a child
you witnessed your say, father abuse your mother, you can't
forgive him for doing that. You can forgive him for
the pain and fear and just hurt that he caused you.
(13:41):
But it has to be specific to what happened to you.
So if you are the abused, yes, you are the
one to forgive, right. Yeah, it's a bit different when
it comes to forgiving yourself self forgiveness. Accepting responsibility is important,
but holding onto shame and guilt for too long isn't helpful.
The first step is similar or recognizing that you are
in the wrong and your actions caused pain. Then you
(14:04):
dig a bit deeper, identifying why it happened and what
was in your control and what wasn't in your control.
Pinpoint lessons you learned and how you can avoid a
similar situation.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
In the future.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
When you've taken these steps forgive yourself allowed or on paper,
then if another party is involved, apologize. We're going to
get more into apology later, but you apologize genuinely and
not expecting anything from the other person, and then take
steps to make things right. If you're looking to forgive
(14:36):
but struggling, there are support groups and counseling out there
that can help. Some other tips are practicing empathy, reflecting
on times you've hurt others and what was going on
in your head when you did right in your journal
if you have a journal. If you don't, I recommend
getting one or meditation. Also, if you can't forgive, patience,
(14:57):
be patient. It is hard and it shakes time.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, and again we're not saying that you have to Yep,
this is completely based on you. And also if, and
this is a big if the wrong doer shows no
signs of changing, it is toxics. It is an unhealthy
relationship and it will always be unhealthy.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, distance from someone like that. You can still forgive
if you would like to, but distance is key.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
That person will keep hurting you.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Because you're forgiving doesn't mean you have to repeat the harm.
That's happening to you.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yes, exactly, And we did want to look specifically at
some some studies around women and forgiveness. But first we
have a quick break for word from a sponsor and
(15:50):
we're back, Thank you sponsor.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Okay. So, there actually have been a.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Lot of studies looking into this. One of them is
from twenty eleven. It's a study from the University of
the Basque Country and it looked into gender differences and
forgiveness and the study found that women are better at forgiving.
The study authors suspect that women are more empathetic than men.
That was one of the reasons they gave, which is
(16:14):
key when it comes to forgiveness. Women, especially older women,
seem to reap more of the benefits of forgiveness as well.
Even women who reported feeling that they themselves were unforgiven,
they also felt those benefits.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I think holding on the things is just tiring. That's
what I've learned as I'm getting older, and I'm like,
oh God, I'm just tired of being angry at you.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
So one study showed that forgiveness can make men feel weak,
and that more forgiving men suffer from higher levels of
depression as compared to less forgiving men self. Forgiving men
fared better, but forgiving others didn't show the same positive link.
The scientists behind the study believe that because forgiveness is
seen as a more feminine thing, it is painted as
weak and in general, for a variety of reasons, men
(16:56):
are less forgiving than women when.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
It comes to sexual abuse against women. There are a
lot of misconceptions that to forgive means that you don't
report sexual assault, or that if you do, you haven't
forgiven the person, or that forgiving someone means that.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
You're totally cool with them.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
None of these things are true, and pressing women to
forgive an abuser who is unrepetent and still in their
lives is dangerous. Sharon Lamb's essay Women Abuse and Forgiveness
a Special Case argues that women are a special class
of victims impossible forgivers, and that women quote may have
some particular reasons not to forgive, and she goes on
(17:35):
to ask why is it that we have so much
trouble with.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
The woman who will not forgive?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Janis Hawkins's essay The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Psychoanalytic and cultural perspectives on forgiveness also digs into the
feminism of forgiveness and goes out of her way to
make the point that forgiveness is neither good or bad.
She writes, as oppressed groups gain the strength to speak
up and claim new rights, including their right to disengage
abusive relationships, the powerful rediscover the salutary virtue of forgiveness. Basically,
(18:06):
forgiveness benefits them for hurting other people.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Right, and this brings us to gaslighting.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Women are frequently made to feel guilty if they don't forgive.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Scorned, bitter cold.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
These are ways to stigmatize unforgiving women and pressure them
to forgive. It's another way of dismissing women as emotional
and invalidating their probably completely legitimate reactions. It flips the
story so that the woman is to blame. She's just bitter, overreacting, irrational,
sensitive drama queen petty. It is on her. Any negative
(18:43):
emotions she's experiencing are her fault. She should be the
better person and forgive again. Forgiving or not forgiving. It's
the choice, very personal one.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, So we've seen examples with the Kavanaugh case in
itself that like it's so long ago, he was just
a kid. Why can't you let that go? You're just
being petty? Is so absurd that they're that more likely
to call her names rather than keep accountability for those
who were responsible for the action.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
When Selma Hayek wrote in The New York Times about
her reasons for not speaking up about Harvey Weinstein's sexual harassment,
one of the reasons she gave was that she was
proud of her capacity for forgiveness. And this essay was
when she was sort of being like, this is why
I didn't do it, And I know that these are
I should have or I not should have, But it
(19:32):
was her looking back on why she.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Didn't, right, And that makes perfect sense. Yeah. So some
arguments put forth that for some women trying to distance
themselves from the angry feminist stereo type, they might be
more forgiving, which we know that's always a really bad negative.
A similar argument can has been made that black people
are asked and expected to forgive white racist without ever
getting so much as an apology or even recognition, which
(19:55):
we can talk about with the slavery and just people
being like, why you keep bringing that up, and it's like,
what the hell y'all? Yeah, really, why because it's important
and we need to acknowledge the trauma that it has
caused and it still continues to cause. So let's talk
about religion because I think that's one of the big
things where we talk about forgiveness. Yes, there's sixty two
(20:16):
passages in the Bible that include the word forgive, and
then there's twenty seven passages that contain the word forgiveness.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
That is a lot, fair a lot.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Some religions do connect forgiveness with being a good person,
especially for women. There have been multiple instances of numerous
women reporting sexual abuse by church leaders to other church
leaders and being told they must forgive to get into heaven,
and by forgive they meant don't tell anybody. Right, in
some interpretations of Christianity, people can't forgive it all.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Only God can forgive. So there's a lot going on there.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
There are a lot of pressures here around this idea
of forgiveness.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
I think it's just all.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Idea in it self forgiveness and what it's supposed to do,
and it is kind of absolving people who have committed
sins essentially, and I think it is a good balance
to understand what is right for you.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yes, yes, and we do have a little bit more
about that, but first we have one more quick break
for word from our sponsor.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
And we're back. Thank you sponsor.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
So I guess one of the biggest takeaways for me
is that I am going to reframe how I think
about forgiveness. We're going to make it all about me,
because in this case, I am the wrong and I'm
just gonna think of it almost like it has nothing
(21:59):
to do with that person. If you are the ones
seeking forgiveness, which can mean just apologizing and leaving the
other person the hell alone, make it all about them.
And yeah, a few situations are so black and white,
it's been for me. Everybody has such a specific story
and it's complex in its own way, so it's hard
(22:21):
to give really good specific advice. But here are some
general ideas that might help, and a quick note about
how to apologize. A good apology can open up a
dialogue and is the beginnings of re establishing trust, or
it can be. It entails that you show remorse, you
(22:42):
acknowledge that you caused hurt. It has to be sincere
and not flip it around to make it the other
person's fault, like it was just a joke.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I'm sorry you felt hurt.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I think that's probably one of the biggest sins when
it comes to apologies is that you make excuses.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
And I've done it too. You make excuses for your
behavior and make it like the other person was overreact.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Right, So if you're apologizing with it but yes, don't
do that, or if you're apologizing I'm sorry you right,
but you statements, go ahead and stop.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's better.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
A short apology is better than any kind of long
winded here's my excuse. A good apology also involves making amends,
providing something actionable to show you're serious, putting yourself in
the other person's shoes, and honestly trying to understand why
(23:34):
they were hurt. Then offer steps to make sure that
whatever it was doesn't happen again. Yes, do not make
it about you. Apologies also got to be said, are
sometimes hurtful and unwelcome. So if you're doing it to
make yourself feel better, that is not a good apology.
And also remember impact matters more than intention. I think
(23:58):
a lot of people get caught in that that trap
as well, and I can and have written a paper
on this.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
My infamous essay about doing the dishes.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
It was about a lot more than that, but I
use the dishes as a case study.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Nice I really don't like doing dishes. I really really don't.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
And then I've kind of noticed in my life I
feel like some people blame me for things, and I'm
not sure what they are. So it's hard to apologize,
or I'm not even sure that I need to apologize.
But this is a time when I need to remember
all of the episodes where we have sung the praises
of communication.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yes, always talk to each other yep. When one of
Bill Cosby's alleged victims was asked by Anderson Cooper, can
you forget something like this? Her response was, I forgave
Bill Cosby years ago for me. When you hold onto
resentment for someone like that, it's not hurting them, it's
only hurting you. And I think that's very valid for
(25:01):
all of us. I think I've felt the same way,
and I'm sure you have to when you have been
a victim from someone that you may never see again, yep,
that you have to forgive, maybe not even just forgive,
but let it go. Yeah, And that's the best you
can do for yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, I think that's recently. It came up in one
of my therapy sessions lately and she said there's a
quote like not forgiving is like drinking poison and expecting
the other person to die, or not not forgiving but
not letting go, because yeah, they probably in some cases
(25:37):
at least they don't care.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
It's not anything to them, right.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
It is difficult, though it's easier said thanne. Re understand that,
And I still have questions around forgiveness. I got caught
up in this whole idea of some things may just
truly be unforgivable. But I do think I want to forgive.
I think I'm in that stage. But before that I can,
(26:01):
I have to deal with a lot of the fallout
that I've been avoiding for so long. I think that's
the emotional block is that I've just been avoiding. And
apparently this is an idea that's been on my brain
for a very long time because one of my favorite
things I've written, the D and D character that I
played to finish out the end of the story.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I like that you were just having like rings on
across our death.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
To see the miniature. I have many of her.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
It's all about forgiveness or not forgiving, and revenge and redemption,
and it's interesting to see how it's evolved as I've
continued to write it. But that is about what we
have to say on forgiveness today. We would love to
hear from listeners any wisdom's truths or just stories they
(26:49):
have about forgiveness or not forgiveness, and we have heard
from some listeners already that we would like to read
here now. Marie wrote, I was super excited when I
saw you doing spooky episodes for October, especially the Female
Monsters episode. I just want to tell you about one
of my favorite books, which not only features a badass
monster eating primordial goddess who very often refers to herself
(27:11):
as a monster as a protagonist, but she's also got
a female romantic interest. The book is called The One
Who Eats Monsters by Casey Matthews.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
And it's an incredible book.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
As a recently out lesbian, I've been trying to consume
as much LGBTQ plus fiction as possible, mostly sci fi
fantasy literature involving lesbians. I've had to scour the internet
and bookstores to get my fix, and I've noticed that
there's definitely been an increase in the amount of representation
in fiction, especially among protagonists. Anyway, I just want to
tell you all about my favorite book. I'd love it
if you did an episode on queer literature or badass
(27:42):
lesbians in literature.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
We would love that too.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
And one of the reasons I wanted to read this
is listeners, if you've got some examples, send them our way.
I definitely have some I could contribute as well. And
then we have a letter from Marissa. My friend Marissa.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Out you like that?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
No, no, no, but she wrote this and I responded
like I do to any listener, as if I didn't
know her. So I hope you enjoyed that, MRSA. She wrote,
I have to throw my two cents in on my
experience with the opioid crisis. First, my background is a
traveling er nurse. At this point in my career, I've
worked in six different states Georgia, Massachusetts, California, Alasta, Colorado,
(28:24):
and Maine as a medical professional in the trenches of
this opioid epidemic. I can assure you this is truly
a problem everywhere. However, there is one er assignment that
stands out. This community was being devastated by heroin. Every
night we had at least a handful of od's overdoses.
This was a big seventy five bed er. Narcan had
(28:45):
to be so readily available that there were internasal narcan
rapid response boxes installed on the walls and strategic locations
all around the er. For instance, they had a box
and triage due to so many people being dropped off
in front with od's not breathing. All of the police,
firefighters and ems carried narcan and knew how to use it.
I would like to share a little narcan knowledge with you. First,
(29:07):
you must know what a drug half life is, the
time it takes the drug concentration to reach fifty percent
less than the starting dose in the body. I don't
want to get too technical, but essentially, heroin works longer
than the antidote narcannaloxone. Narcan brings them out of their
high fast, and many times these slumped over lifeless ODS
would reanimate rather violently and combatively. It's hard to rationalize
(29:29):
with an addict who's come violently out of their high
to stay there recommended four hours after narcan. So essentially
I'm trying to let anyone out there that has to
administered narkan know to keep watching your friend or loved one.
The half life of narcan is shorter than that of heroin,
so essentially you can be revived from the brink of
an od death. But if you leave too soon or
(29:50):
not watch can get into the same situation again. The
drug wave could still crash over you and take you under,
so continue to watch someone for several hours after administering narkan. Also,
Narcan naloxone emergency kits are available at almost every pharmacy
without a prescription. If you're using, please have this safety
plan in place. Go to your nearest pharmacy and get
(30:11):
an emergency kit. Make sure those around you while you're
using know where the narcan is and how to use it.
Call nine one one if the person is not breathing.
Those that have allergy reactions carry EpiPens epinephrine. If you're using,
you should carry narcan. Safe practice is all I want
to preach. Keep everything clean and have a safety plan.
Enough people have died. This epidemic is destroying families. Please
(30:32):
don't let it take your life. Wow, that's a lot
of good information. I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't
know that either. So thanks Marissa for our share fighting.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah, the good fight is a nurse. Thank you so
much for what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, and thanks for writing in, taking the time and
sharing that knowledge. And we would love to hear from
other listeners. Thanks to these two for writing in. If
you would like to write to us, you can Our
email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff
Podcast or on Instagram at Stuff We'll Never Told You.
(31:07):
Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, Hey yy,
and thanks to you for listening. Stuff Owner told you
the protection of iHeartRadio's how Stuff Works. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit our heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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