May 6, 2023 • 56 mins
No, this is the Princess Leia episode you're looking for. In Part 2 of our classic deep dive on Princess Leia, we talk about the infamous metal bikini in 'Return of Jedi', the feminism of Princess Leia and her transition to General Organa, Carrie Fisher, and Anney shares with Samantha her views on the feminism of the Force, from a certain point of view. You'll find this episode is full of surprises. Help us dear podcast listener, you're our only hope.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha and welcome to stuff
I Never told your production of iHeart Radio, And welcome
to our part two classic rerun.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm Princess Leiah. Whether you celebrate Revenge of the fifth
or Revenge of the sixth, because people disagree about which
one is the better kind of rhyming scheme. Either way,
I hope you enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hey this Sanny and again Samantha, and.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Welcome to stuff I've Never told your production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Always have to pretend like a surprise like I'm still here.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I love your tone of surprise always with you, the
tone of surprise they have.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
You have to switch it up because you know why not?
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Definitely keep me and the listeners on our toes.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I actually, how do you feel about a good like
surprise or twist?
Speaker 4 (01:20):
In medias? At the.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
It's according to what kind of surprise or twist there is.
Like I will say, if it gets too dark and
I don't know there's a happy ending, I'm gonna quit.
But if you tell me that's going to be a
happy ending, I'll be better.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I love a good surprise.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
And a good twist, like if it's if it's just
ridiculous and unearned. I don't like that, right, But something
like from these movies we're talking about today, Star Wars,
I am your father.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
I would have loved to have had that surprise.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
It's kind of like the I See Dead People.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Yeah I did that too. I had. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I went through such a big sixth sense phase because
I love horror, and good horror can sometimes be hard to.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Find, right, and to be fair, you only can get
that once. I know that's a sad part.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
But you you are someone who has watched movies with me,
and movies that I love, and you know, I get
reinvested every time as if I'm like you.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It's almost like you get surprised again, like the way
you're so invested that when I look at your face, you're.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Like, oh, oh.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
My gosh, that I truly believe that it's the first
time you've seen it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, And I've wondered about that. And I had a
friend who kind of like interviewed me.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
She said, so, tell me, why is it every time
we watch these movies you've seen hundreds of times together,
you act as though you've never seen it.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
And I was trying to explain that. For me, it's
almost like I can count on these feelings and stations.
It gives me every time, and that's why I keep
watching them and I love those. It's almost like writing
a roller coaster. I love writing roller coasters. Write a
million times.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
And if you knew, it's true, because when we've written
ride together, you do act like it's a new thing
for you. You're so excited about it in advance. So
for you, when we were talking about the Star Wars
that was the first time you wrote it, what was
your feels other than because the initial was that you
were so excited that you almost tore, like you almost
(03:30):
had tears in your You did have tears in your
eyes as you were like, we're going to write it.
What was your feel after the fact that you wrote
it for the first time? You were quiet?
Speaker 4 (03:40):
I was quiet.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
I was like almost euphoria, just a relief and a
happiness that we did this.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I've been so worried about it. I thought we would
never make it happen. And it was around two pm
that we finally got to write it, and it was Oh,
I can't believe that it happened.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
All these things could have gone wrong, and we.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Did, and we were we were kind of scared that
it was going to go wrong, whether it was weather,
whether it was being backed up, whether it would break down.
Because also I had this experience with you with the
Hagrid Rod Yes, and I was like, we can't leave
here without you actually writing this ride, because I think
that would have been one of the biggest disappointments for
(04:26):
you and for me to see you write it, to
see you after the fact and the stories that you had. Yeah,
but it's kind of that same level.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, I am so glad you were like, you have
to write this ride.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
No better what I.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Really know, I wasn't gonna let you leave without that.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I love how supportive you are. It's one of my
favorite things about you. You made sure that happened, and
I am so glad that I wrote that.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Right, I will say, you make it easy because I
know what you love. Yes, And that's like first and
foremost one of the things that I love about my friends.
And by the way, when we read the listener letter
about her friend doing the Harry Potter, she actually tweeted
her friend tweeted about how much she loved her friend
for doing that. That is the stuff that I love
(05:11):
about women loving women and our female supporting females. But
that is what I see, like, I'm like, oh my god,
Annie has to do this because she loves it. Of course,
I love to teach you and be like, no, it's
never happening. But just watching this movie, just seeing you
on these rise, this passion. I don't know if I've
ever felt passionate like that, and you do, and it's
(05:31):
fun to watch.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
I'm glad.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I'm glad because, as I said in the last one
in part one of our Princess Leah Star Wars Overview,
I've been embarrassed about it.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Like still to this day, I struggle with it.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I think fandom is more accepted now, but when I
was younger, I definitely felt like a weirdo.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
And even my older brother, who loved Star Wars, he
would make fun of me for liking Star Wars and
he said I was too into it and it was strange,
and luckily for me, I was too in it to
be deterred.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
And I love that. I think people who love things
are genuinely you know who they are, yeah, And to me,
they are die hard and loyal and loyalty is really
hard to find.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
And I think that fandom certainly can be toxic, and
we've talked about that before.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
And I am someone who.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I'm able to separate the things that I love about
Star Wars in particular, or anything that I do really love,
the good things and the bad things. And like, sure,
I didn't like this movie, but that doesn't ruin everything
else for me. And I know for some people it does, right,
but for me it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
And just to put this out there, loving anything too much, yes,
obsession is dangerous, yes, But to be able to love
something it is a genuinely good thing. And for those
who support friends, those who uh for me like I Again,
I think I've talked about this before about attachment issues.
I don't quite understand this level of this bond, but
(07:15):
I love it when I see it because I wish
I could be as in it as you are.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Well you, I'm so glad it met so much to
me that you watched these the feed and you shared
it with me, because yeah, we are.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
This is our part two of.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Our epic Star Wars Princess Leiah Feminism Overview. Please go
check out part one if you haven't listened to it already,
in which we talk about the cultural impact of Star
Wars in Leia, and we did the plot overview of
a New Hope and Impire strikes back from the original
(07:50):
trilogy because we're mostly focusing on those, and today we're
gonna start with Return of the Jedi, which is the
final one in this original it's much maligned. It was
my favorite as a kid. It's still my second favorite,
and you can judge me for that if you want.
But Imperi stikes Pact number one turned the Jedi Hope.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
So in Retard of the Jedi, Leah poses as a
bounty hunter to infiltrate Jaba's palace to save Han, which
by the way, I didn't know who Jaba was, and
he had to tell me who the Green Slide was.
I got it. I got it. And a lot of
people joke that she is on a mission to save
her prince. I agree with that, but it's found out
(08:34):
after freeing Han from carbonite and enslaved by Jaba, changed
by his side, which is the scene and that I know, yes,
this is where Slave Leah and the metal bikini comes in. That,
I mean, I get it. It was very sexist, but
damn she looked good in it. She did. She looked good, which,
by the way, again was one of the three scenes
(08:55):
that I knew about. Of course everyone knows about that,
I guess one. So Luke Han and Chewey are sent
us to death as they fight their way out, and
Leah strangles Jaba with her chase because she is a badass,
and she kills him with the tools of her oppression
and escapes. And by the way, I think I did
(09:16):
make a few comments about how Chewy looked really rough
in DC.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
He did, and I always forget that possibly someone doesn't
know my level of nerd them, and I know you
had to deal with that, because I'll just forget, like, oh,
you don't know all these things that I just know.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Uh yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Java is kind of this big crime lord who Han
had a big debt to and so after we got
frozen in carbonite, got sent to Java hanging on his
wall like an ornament.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
So I learned about the Mandalorian at this point.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
I don't think I ever explained that properly to you,
but yes, because.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Well I think if you didn't, my partner Joe tried to,
and I was just like staring back and forth at
both of you. So I learned about the two of them.
I also learned that the original clunky scene.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Was due to Java, right, uh, yeah, well it's the Gredo.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Who's Holly Fryes super fan, Holly fries favorite character.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
I'm not calling her super fan, she's super she is
an expert. You're right, we should give her the respect
she is new. Yeah, yeah, I actually have a whole thing.
And I'm going to come back to this once we
get to the newer movies. But I'm not sure you're
aware of this, Samantha, but a lot of people love
Boba Fett, who is the bounty hunter that that looks
(10:37):
like the Mandalorian, And I just think he's bad at
his job.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
And well, I did keep asking where's the baby?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yes you did.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
What's his name?
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Well everyone calls him baby Yoda, which is not baby Wrecked.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
But yeah, well I just and so therefore, because I
know about Baby Yoda and the popularity and the cuteness
of Baby Yoda, I called everything baby something.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Also, I didn't mean for that to sound judgmental. That
everyone gets I also call it baby.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
I'm just saying it's unjudgmental. It is exactly what it is.
I who knows nothing of Star Wars. No no, no, no, no, no,
super cute and then everything is baby something.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yes, yes, I appreciated it. So yeah, yeah, there's big crime.
Lord Leah kills him. When Carrie Fisher was asked if
she wanted a stunt double to kill Jaba.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
She's like, hell no, I want to do it.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yes, And this is probably the scene that causes the
most feminist discussion kind of ire. It was definitely a
way of catering to the male gaze, although it is
worth pointing out that when these movies themselves came out,
they were not seen as four men and boys.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
That came later, that came around the time of Return
of the Jedi.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
I think this is a scene that I was like, oh, look,
there's the one Asian girl.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
But we talked about this in our Star Wars Feminism
episode and her Action Figures episode about how this series
sort of got really drawn into as part of the
fact that merchandising was such a big part of it,
the rebranding in the nineties of this is for Boys
and this is for girls, and it was firmly set
aside as this is for boys and slave, Leia is
(12:27):
absolutely serving this cause this became instant sex symbol, and
this is the image that many publications use of her.
Even My Fancy Star Wars Encyclopedia in their entry.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
For Laya, that is the image that they use, and.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
It was the image they used on the nineteen eighty
three cover of The Rolling Stones in Return of the
Jedi was announced. It has inspired so much cosplay it
has a cult following of its own, despite having only
two minutes of screen time. That is one of the
three things that you knew about this movie is very
revealing because it's two minutes or less. Fisher has spoken
(13:09):
about how miserable it was to film these scenes and
how the mail crew mocked her. That dignity was out
of the question, as she said, and it was made
of metal, or at least one of them was, so
it didn't really move with her. One version was made
of rever, but she had to be very careful about
how she moved, and she's expressed her annoyance that the
(13:29):
costume has been taken out of context of that scene
becoming synonymous with sexy. A parent even recently complained that
the Leya in a metal bikini toy was being sold
at Target that it was too sexy, when if you
think about what's happening in those scenes, it's horrendous, and
Leah's expression of contempt and rage communicates her feelings about it,
(13:52):
and the fact that she ultimately kills the one who
tried to take power from her and Jaba, her captor,
and the one viewing her as a.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Sex object is objectively gross. He's gross.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
He kind of serves as a stand in for those
that would objectify her, and you do not want to
be Java. He's leering, his tongue is rolling out. Almost
every scene with Leah in this outfit comes with Java
in the background or reminder that if you're fantasizing about
this non consensual situation, well you have something in common
(14:26):
with this disgusting creature right here. This is something people
often ignore or forget. What they remember of all Leah
has done is that she was really hot in that bikini,
and that is so frustrating. It's something we as women
see all the time. We can lead a rebellion for
three movies but still be remembered for when we were
at our weakest and most humiliated, and the fact that
(14:49):
she is known here as slave Leah, which is never
used in the script. By the way, that's something culture
and fans assigned to her and not just Leyah is
disturbed and very indicative. A lot have accused George Lucas
of having his cake and eating it too, of catering
to the mailgize while also condemning it.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Right. So, there is an episode of Friends where Rachel
dresses up in the metal bikini for ross. I guess
it's called the one with the Princess Leah fantasy, and
there are slave Leya burlesque routines, billy dancing routines, and
strip routines. Also collectors items and toys, which is all yuck.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, I do like some of the dance and burlesque
routines or reclaim it, which is really cool as like
a power power scene. I personally prefer dressing up as
Leah to get out of jury duty on thirty Huck,
even though she shouldn't be embarrassed for cosplay, I say,
as I'm in cosplay, and Carrie Fisher's guest appearance on
(15:51):
that show is fantastic.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
It is so good. It's probably one of my favorite episodes,
especially with the whole icon of her being a writer
and a strong female writer for a field that is
dominated by men in her age, so like it was
just so stacked. There's so many layers to that episode
with Carrie Fisher and also Carrie Fisher as a comedian. Yes,
(16:15):
she is amazing, Her timing is freaking.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Amazing, fantastic, fantastic. That one's called Rosemar's Baby, if anyone
has missed it, and there's a lot. There's a lot
(16:38):
of debate in the Star Wars community about whether jab
assaulted Leah in this scene. The consensus seems to be no,
that the outfit was his way of taking away her power.
There's also a lot of informal research on why the
costume has resonated so much with women and why so
many women cosplay it. Dancer Amir Sayid, who has used
(16:59):
the outfit in her tears, have said quote, Jaba put
her into the outfit to humiliate her, but Leah was
such a strong character her will made the costume empowering.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Right, and some fans have rebranded Slave Leah as Leah
the Hutslayer, as they should, and Amy Schumer poked fun
at this in a photo shoot as well. Yes, yes,
and as you have told me a couple of times,
and any k Fisher advised you Star Wars actress Daisy
Ridley not to let them put her in a bikini,
and apparently that was a wise statements.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And I do want to throw in here just a note.
This is still hotly debated. I have read arguments that
Leah killing Jaba is not empowering. I've read so many
that it is. I think a part of the problem
is the way mostly masculine fan culture around Star Wars
tries to reduce things like she was rescued on the
(17:54):
desk star, which is technically true, but misses the whole
context of the saying it she was a sexy prisoner
of Java, which again, it just doesn't have the context.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
So I don't know how you let go of the
fact that she killed him. She killed her prisoner. I
think that overpowers the fact that she was a sexy prisoner.
If she was able to kill him and get away
with it and become the princess.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Yes, she's ah, I love it, get him leyah Uh.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Leah after that joins the ground team to destroy the
shield generators.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
I know this is a lot of technical speak.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
It's not super important, so that the rebellion can destroy
the Death Star volunteering after she learns that Han is
leading this group and her surprise, and to her surprise
is a general accepting a position and a cause important
to her that he for a long time a shirt
And this is when he's proved his commitment his love,
and she shows hers by trusting his leadership at I mean,
(18:52):
at the start of the movie, she never would have
trusted Han to lead anything.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I mean, he's handsome, but he's kind of dumb.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
He has a lot of growing up to do, for sure.
And Han does not try to sideline her protect her.
He's happy she wants to be on his team.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
He knows she's useful and very competent, and I do
love She's not really defined by this.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Relationship, and she doesn't lose herself in it.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
She acknowledges what she wants and needs and accepts the
fact that she does in fact have those things, and
that's okay. She goes on to lead a speeder chase
after some Stormtroopers, is separated from the group and fights
all some enemies and joins the Ewoks, which are the
little teddy bear.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I call them teddy bears.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
You also, I feel like you kept mixing up wookies
in ewoks.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I did. I did, absolutely, Even now as we talk
about it, I won't say either one of those honestly,
because I don't know which is which.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
That's totally fair. It's totally fair.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I just called them the cute things.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, I would have understood. Again, I can translate your
Star Wars speak.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
The interesting thing is like to prove the point of
how successful merch was for these movies, E Walks never
said in the movie Wampa, the ice creature from Empire
strikes Back, that is my fan fiction name.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Never said name or never not in credit.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
So I didn't know what a wampa was until you
showed me. I know, and I can guarantee if you
gave me a pictures of all of these things, I
probably would get one out of three.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Right, Well, you better be ready because there's a quiz
at the end. Oh no, I'm just kidding kind of Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Then, Luke, I've seen the outline.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
There's quizzes. Don't look ahead in my outline.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Luke goes on to tell her that she is Luke's
twin sister and Darth Vader, her past tormentor in arch Nemesis,
is their dad, and she tells Luke to run away,
that she she wishes she could go with him, but
he immediately calls her bluff. He says, you've always been strong, Leah,
and some as we alluded to in the part one
(20:57):
of this, some people take issue with this scene that
she didn't have a bigger reaction to the revelation that
this person who tortured me and was very instrumental in
the blowing off my home planet is my father, and
she does have more experience because of that than Luke
(21:19):
does with Darth Vader. But I feel like if she had,
people would have taken issue with that too. She's being
too emotional. It does to me seem in keeping with
her character that she takes it in stride.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
I will say, I will say you to that, like
I think people, as an adopted woman, myself an adopted girl,
there's a lot of things that you understand and even
though there's an idealization. Again I'm getting too literal with this,
but there's an understanding that there's a reason you're not
with your biological and of course this is a dramatic
(21:51):
version of he's evil and he did things to you.
But in actuality, the truth of the matter is that
the reason that you were not with your biological parent,
there is a component of not necessarily evil, but a
dark side. So I will say for me, it made sense.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
And I'm someone who when I get news that i'm
I know is big and I'm gonna have an emotional response,
I usually have a pretty delayed response.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
I think that's me too. I am one of those
that sits calmly and then walks away and reacts after
the fact. I've been called out for that a couple
of times.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
I have too.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I had a two friends tell me that, you know,
they've been dating forever and they thought that I was
I didn't believe them or I was mad at them
because I didn't have a bigger reaction, but I just
I took it and stride and I like to I
like to think over things and make sure I'm responding
in a way that captures how I feel and.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
What I think. So I guess I sort of connected
with her on that.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And a lot of people have said she's she's playing chess,
she's doing alliance versus Empire in her head. Meanwhile, Luke
is doing a much more personal battlefield so it has
a bigger impact on him. So moving on, she fights
alongside Han and Chewey and is slightly injured but keeps going.
She gets to flip the I love you I know
(23:19):
on Han. The heroes are victorious, a party ensues. She
is and Carrie Fisher herself has said this she is
more supportive and feminine in this one, completing her arc
of allowing herself to lean on others to be more vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
I also like the flip that she did with or
not necessarily she, but the writer, I don't know who
did it on the fact that he's the one that's
insecure about the relationship and she's the one who's like,
calm down, is not what you think.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
And I do love that moment.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I have never because I'm not into romance, I've never
really given much thought to the Han and Lance relationship,
but I did, like, I read an article specifically for this,
and they were kind of saying what you saying, Samantha's
it's a sort of a flip because then Emperor strikes
back too. She's the one that's sort of having intimacy
commitment issues, and Han's the one trying to get her
(24:11):
to admit, you know you, he wants, he needs something.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
I think we see so many films with women being
in the triangle and be like as cool as cool,
I'll be the best friend, I'll do this or whatever right,
and she's and she's the one. No, No, calm down,
you're being emotional. It's okay, you're reading the things. It's
not what you think.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, and I had to put this in there. Samantha
heard my holes feel I'll try to shorten it, though.
I have a beef that Darth Vader's last words are
tell your sister you were right about me. Man, you
tortured her, dude, And those are some pretty selfish last
words say.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I will say, first thing, and he told me right
after that scene, right after that scene, and I will say,
not necessarily to me, I think she was just making
an outright statement.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Was that's oh no, that's what.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
No, you're still a bad guy. You tortured her. That
that was the initial statement that I kind of looked at.
I was like, you're right, you're absolutely this does not
justify what you did to her.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
No, I'm cladding on my side, I am, and I
did just want to put this in here because.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
It does come up in a lot of feminist essays
about Princess Leah, which you would not believe how many
there are.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Maybe you would.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
It's Vagerder's threat to turn Lea to the dark side
that goes Luke into attacking Darth Vader, cutting off Vader's
hands and almost losing himself his hands and almost losing
himself to the dark side.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Some interpret that as sort of the whole hero I
mean to justify violence or.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, yeah, so put that out there, and then moving
on to the new the new Ones, which we're again
not going to talk about too much. You can hear
more about that in Our especially the Last Jedi's feminism, uh,
in Our feminism and Star Wars episode because that movie
really does have a lot going on when it comes
to feminism. But Leya reprised by Carrie Fisher.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
By the way, I did not see this, so all
of this is just conjecture from my point of view.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
No, but I would love, like I won't make you
watch it, but I would love to just tell you
what happens in it, because it's kind of shocking how
much feminist dialogue is in it okay, so Leya reprised
by Carrie Fisher. She's the one that stays. So These
take place a couple of decades after the original trilogy
and Han has left. Luke is socially distancing way before
(26:36):
it was cool, but Leya stayed to lead the fight
against the First Order, which is the New Empire, and
her son is a member of that. And it's revealed
that she was trained by Luke to be a Jedi,
but she had a vision that if she completed her training,
her son would die, so she.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
Gave it up. No spoilers.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
When it was announced that she would return, of course,
the lot of internet was like she's too oh, sho's
too fat. On the flip side, people were really worried
that she'd just be a token or a cameo, but
she's running the whole show. She definitely teaches Flyboy Po
a valuable lesson about listening to and respecting women in
the Last Jedi, even though a lot of people did
(27:20):
not like it. When asked what she wanted fans to
take away from Leya in the new movies, Fisher said,
never give up. Fisher was also very outspoken that Leah
remained a strong character for the generations who had grown
up looking up to her, and for new generations as well.
To stay true to Princess Leiah and the fans of
Princess Leah. And to Twitter trolls commenting on her looks
(27:44):
and age, Carrie Fisher responded, please start debating about whether
or not I have aged well. Unfortunately, it hurts all
three of my feelings. My body has an aged well
as I have. Youth and beauty are not accomplishments, their
temporary happy by products of time and or DNA. Don't
hold your breath for either. Also, here's another controversial thing
(28:04):
I want to say, because this causes a lot of
argument in the Star Wars fan community.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Kyler Renn is a bad Jedi. I'm just gonna leave
that there.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Like people like to complain that Ray was too good,
too fast, maybe Kyler Renn was just bad.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
Have we ever thought about that.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
I would just like to say once again, the Stormtroopers
and the damn guns, they did not use them because
it never touched people. I'm just very confused with what
they were used for other than a laser show. Because
other than bring a little smoke here and there. It
rarely killed someone. I don't understand how bad they are
at aim and why they are stormtroopers if they can't
(28:39):
aim a laser.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
That is a running joke in the series, and I
loved watching it with you as someone who hadn't seen
it and just seeing you immediately pick up on it.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Why has no one hit any of them? If there's
twenty of them with laser guns and three of them
with two guns, why.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Maybe they're just bad or see. My theory is maybe
their hearts weren't in it and they were just pretending.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Maybe they were like they just wanted a laser show, right, Yeah,
I mean, to be fair, I feel like none of
the good guys were able to hit the bad guys either,
Like it was very fair. You know who did really well?
Speaker 4 (29:17):
E Walks and rocks, Yeah, spears.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah, I mean they got them one e walk died rip,
but then they got them with vines and rocks. That's
all I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yes, yeah, I mean that's one of the reasons people
really don't like Return of the Jedi. But yes, so
in the Legends Universe, which is all the books that
came out after the movies and books and comics and
everything that Disney has now said is not canon. So
it's called Legends. But in that she becomes a Jedi
(29:51):
and a leader of the New Republic. Oh my gosh,
we could talk so much, or I could, because I've
read all these things about Lea in Legends.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
But then this episode never end.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
And I did ask her to end it at page
twenty two.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
She did, She stepped in, she put the foot down,
So thanks Samantha for that. Listeners.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
There's political marriages, there's a whole book called the Courtship
of Princess Leiah. There's multiple kidnappings, pheromone seduction which scared
me as a kid, forgiveness, forgiveness. When Luke turns to
the dark side, Lea resists similar temptations, and it's able
to turn Luke back side. Uh he did in one
of the books. Oh yeah, and I went into all
(30:32):
the Luke Skywalker clone whose name is Luke with two us.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
That's also in the books. It's one of my favorites.
In fact, too, Lukes, this can't get any better.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
I'm not ready for all of this.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Okay, So that's sort of a very uh somehow both
very long and very short runout of the plot of
these movies. So now we're going to talk about feminism
and Princess Leiah. But first we're gonna pop for a
quick break for word from our sponsor, and we're back.
(31:16):
Thank you, sponsor. So, as we said in part one,
Princess Leah is widely regarded as a feminist icon. There's
even something called Leyah feminism. Carrie Fisher herself has described
Princess Leah as a huge feminist icon. In response to
those that call her a damsel in distress in movies,
she said she bost them around. I don't know what
(31:37):
your idea of distresses, but that wasn't it. And I
wasn't some babe running around the galaxy with my spouncing around,
so I wasn't threatening to women. Carrie Fisher was instrumental
in this characterization of Leah. She was a Hollywood script
fixer and she was very involved in making Leyah what
she was. She said she loved Leah, she loved her feiciness,
(31:57):
the fact that she killed Jab of the Hut, and
her the Princess Diarist. She wrote that she was quote
honored to be Leah's representative here on Earth. She has
often said that she was Leah and Leyah was her
and I love that. I love when you find an
actor who embraces this right.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
I think it's I.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
Think it was because she created it, so she loved it.
It was a part of her exactly. When this character debuted,
there weren't many strong female role models in movies and television.
Most female characters served as decorations or prizes to be one.
Leah was vastly different when compared to other princesses at
the time, and still is in many ways. She was
(32:38):
our first badass princess in pop culture, and especially important
when we think about entertainment aim towards children. Because these
were seen as children's movies, she became an instant icon
for girls and women. She defied stereotypes about women and
princesses and what they could do in the new movies.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Her title is general. In the early days, women ran
star wars, fanzunes, and fan clubs.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I'm in.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Some second wave feminists criticized Princess Leah when the film
came out for her masculine traits. This was during the
Vietnam War, when masculinity was associated with war and violence.
And people had a lot of anxiety around that. Take
this quote from a nineteen eighty five Time article, masculinity
itself becomes a horror all rage and aggression and reptilian brain.
(33:29):
Second wave feminism was largely founded alongside the anti war movement.
Lea was a military leader and orchestrated battles that led
to many deaths. When she wasn't doing that, she was
a prisoner of war, so she was at odds with
this anti war part of second wave feminism. It was
really young girls at the time that latched onto her
(33:50):
as a role model, and a lot of those girls
became third wave feminist, which didn't have as strong of
an anti military bent, and they bought their life of
Leah with them. This is also around the time of
the sexual Revolution, Roe v. Wade and the backlash to
all of that, which in part explains the rebanding of
Star Wars as a dude thing uh and the Gold Bikini, which,
(34:13):
since it was the last movie, happened a little later,
even though girls and women had been fans of Star
Wars since the very beginning. JJ Abrams made this mistake
recently on Good Morning America that the original trilogy was
for boys, and the backlash rolls into it.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
It should be.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Another related criticism from earlier reviews about Leo was that
she was a damsel in distressed slash love address so
while at the same time complaining she liked femininity and
uh huh, because what doesn't makes sense.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
I guess that's another point of view. You're damned if
you do, dan if you don't.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
It really is because she can rescue people. But if
she shows any femininity, that means that she is a damsel.
But if she is too assertive, then she lacks it. Yeah,
I will say I think that's been a debate in
my head how to be a female, especially in specific
cultural ideas of what feminism is not feminism feminine trait
(35:12):
is versus what feminism is that it has to be
at odds. When that's not true, we can actually fight
for our own rights with the availability of being feminine.
Don't get me wrong. I don't bake things, I don't
make things, and I'm not super cutesy girly. Sometimes I
wish I were. However, I also cannot figure out how
(35:35):
to work mechanics on things.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
I do know how to change a tire. I will
say that's awesome. Yeah, well, and that's when we're going
to talk about this more in a minute. But that's
one thing people actually did really like about Leaves that
she was really as sortive character but also was still feminine.
So from Diana Dominguez and her work feminism and the
(35:58):
force empowerment and disillusion meant in a galaxy far far away,
here was a woman who could play like and with
the boys, but who didn't have to become one of
the boys, and who could if and when she wanted
to show she liked the boys. A woman who is outspoken, unashamed,
and most importantly, unpunished for being so. She isn't a
flirty sex spot tossing her hair around seductively to distract
(36:19):
the enemy. She doesn't play the role of maternal caretaker,
although she does display caring and compassion, or the sweet
innocent damsel who stands passively by while the men do
the work, but does step aside to let them do
what they're good at when it is wise to do so.
Leah is a hero without losing her gendered status. She
does not have to play the cute, helpless sex kitten
(36:39):
or become the sexless androgynist to get what she wants.
She can be strong, sassy, outspoken, bossy and bitchy and
still be respected and seen as feminine. And then there's
a tweet from Hooveyan Feminism about Leah and the importance
of Star Wars. Leah was a different type of princess
than those in most movies shown to girls my age.
She was a polite and military leader. It showed me
(37:01):
a girl who was like me, rough and tumble and
loud and brash and demanding.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
That felt unique and rare at the time.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Star Wars and Leah and Padmey became fundamental parts of
my childhood and identity. They showed me it was okay
to just be me. If you're wondering, Samantha, I'm sure
you're not. But Padmey is Luke and Lea's mother.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Actually I was wondering. I was trying to figure out
who that was. But I was being quiet, like, did
I miss that part in the movie.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
You will definitely show up on the quiz No, no,
no no, that was the prequel series.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Okay, Oh wait, that is that the Nellie Portman character. Okay, Okay,
I didn't know her name.
Speaker 4 (37:38):
Okay, got it.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yes, The character Leah became a symbol of women's protest
marches worldwide, easily the most referenced pop culture character on
protest signs. A women's place is in the resistance, for example,
a rebel rebel with her picture. Mark Hamill even tweeted
about it. I know where she stood, You know where
she stood. Such an honor to see her standing with
you today, bigly you Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
So. After Carrie Fisher's death in late twenty sixteen, right
after the tumultuous election her daughter Billy Lord, which, by
the way, after watching the originals like, oh yeah, they
are so similar in features, she wrote, Leah is more
than just a character. She's a feeling. She is a strength.
(38:23):
She is grace, she is wit, She is femininity at
its fineness, and no one could have played her like
my mother. Princess Leiah is Carrie Fisher. Carrie Fisher is
Princess Leiah. The two go hand in hand.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, that's beautiful. Fisher's openness about her struggles with bipolar
disorder and addiction were groundbreaking. She was outspoken about sexism,
about mental illness, about agism. She was funny, her unwillingness
to sit down and be quiet, we're aspiring, and she
infused so much of that into Leah, and that's what
(38:59):
may Leah is such a powerful impactful character for so many.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
And I just want to put in here because I
don't think you know, I know, you don't know. So
Carrie Fisher actually made a cameo on Sex and the
City and in that level of Carrie Bradshaw, who was
played by Sarah Jessica Parker, she talks about the fact
that there are two Carries who are writers. And at
that point in time, Carrie was seen as a phenomenal
(39:26):
writer as well because her words were so impactful and
powerful this time. So yes, you can put this into
your graph. She was actually acknowledged as a feminine icon
in Sex and the City.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
All right, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
One of the first cameos I saw her in was
Screamed three, where she also was still having some commentary
about hollywood It's treatment of women.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
So there you go. After her death, Christina J.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Widmyer wrote a paper called the Feminist stra Back Performative
Mourning in the Twitter response to Carrie Fisher's death about
the performative grief around it on Twitter and the feminism
it attracted. They were takedowns of dudes who were like,
rip my first boner and about how she was so
much more than just so many Steve Martin even got
in trouble for this, although it was much less boni
(40:19):
or more about her looks, but that she was so
much more and I wanted to read a quote from it.
Many of these tweets become feminists not only because their
authors are expressing certain views of Leah as a character
and Fisher as a person, but also because they are
utilizing beformativity so that their grief furthers a social agenda.
They are, in fact using their tweets as a means
(40:40):
of carrying Ford Fisher's legacy of activism, and they do
so by challenging patriarchal means of mourning and reintroducing Fisher's
activist leanings through their tweets. In this sense, they engage
in a performative goal, both as individuals performing themselves and
as a collective performing a community value. It is through
these performatives that divisions in the fan community are revealed
(41:02):
and negotiated. That was actually really good read.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Writer and Tat's tweeted this thread after Carrie Fisher's death
about General Organa. She's not young, not wearing a gold
bikini ar robe. She's dressed to do what she's been
training her whole life to do, lead the rebellion. This
is the Layah that has lost everything, her world, her parents,
her son to the dark side, her brother to who
knows where, her lover. This is the Laya that could
(41:28):
easily have been broken down or given up, but she
was stronger than literally every man in her life.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
She kept going.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
When I see Fisher as General Organa, I see a
woman who has put up with so much from so
many men, and yet keeps showing up for them. Princess
Leiah was great, but General Organa was Fisher's real gift
to us, And she's who I'm going to be looking
to in dark times. May we all be able to
get up every day and in spite of our pain
and loss and fear, put on our boots and vest
(41:55):
and plan to destroy the empire. General Organa taught me that,
ye you don't have to be special or chosen.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
To be a leader. You just have to show up
and learn and do the work.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
And then another fan, Isaac Breen, tweeted, honor Carrie Fisher,
normalize mental illness and its treatments, take life a little
less seriously, destroy a fascist regime, right.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
And I think that's how I know her myself, as
an amazing writer who spoke truths whether or not you
wanted it, who had amazing comedic timing and enable to
have a conversation and making jokes and making a light
of hard issues that she had to deal with to
normalize for people who can't deal with it, which we
(42:37):
shouldn't have to do, but she was able to do
it as an art form as well as proceed into
a culture where she came from a time period where
you're supposed to be feminine, you're supposed to be these things,
and could have leaned into I was pretty let me
leave it at that. It came out full forces. I
have words, I have thoughts, I have strength. I have
a mother who had to deal with those times of
(43:00):
oppression as a woman, but I refused to be that woman.
And I'm going to teach my daughter to come forward
as a roaring lion and be my own advocate. That's
how I know Carrie Fisher, and she definitely broke barriers,
not being just Lea, which, by the way, a phenomenal character,
but as her individual who leanked into that character to
(43:21):
push forward herself as a woman who delve into women's rights,
feminist rights, and also just human rights.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
Yeah. Yeah, and she did it all well being funny.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Yeah, that's my like. I will say like every time
I saw her outside of any of Star Wars, because
obviously I didn't see her much in Star Wars until recently.
I saw her as a woman with amazing comediic timing
with also the contextual ideas of what is wrong in society.
She did a great job with it without having to
(43:55):
have her own individual platforms like a talk show or something.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
Yeah, which she did have one at one point.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
I don't know if I knew that.
Speaker 4 (44:03):
Yeah, I think so wishful drinking.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
I love that title.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
Yeah, you should check it out. In the meantime, we
do believe it or not, have a little bit more
for you. Oh surprise, surprise.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
But first we have one more coickbreak for a word
from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So
this is what I will call an Annie original. I
(44:41):
haven't found too much research on this because it's really
difficult to search and I tried, but it's something that's
been on my mind ever since we did our feminism
in Harry Potter episode. And so this is what I
call in the outline my feminist Luke Skywalker discussion, because
I did.
Speaker 5 (44:59):
I did.
Speaker 4 (45:00):
I want to talk about how in that in Harry
Potter and in.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Star Wars, there are these main male characters, Luke Skywalker
and Harry Potter, which by the way, are both my
biggest crushes fictional crushes of all time, is more balanced
when it comes to traditionally feminine and masculine traits, and
some have even argued that these are essentially female characters
in the stereotypical sense. Are they're more like female characters.
(45:26):
Luke was originally written as a female character, so if
you think about Luke Skywalker, he has plenty of masculine
coded traits like hot headedness, recklessness, but he's far more
balanced with feminine coded traits like empathy, compassion, loyalty. When
you take that even further with how Luke in particular
interacts with the Force, because you've got Obi Wan and Yoda,
(45:49):
his mentors telling him that he has to confront and
essentially kill his father Darth Vader to become a Jedi,
and Luke saying he can't do it because he's so
strongly believed and can feel that they're still good In
Darth Vader, and after he turns himself over to Vader,
who turns him over to the Emperor, the Emperor is
(46:12):
urging him to embrace his anger given to his aggression
kill his father. Violence and anger stereotypically masculine traits, and
when Luke does that, he almost loses himself to the
dark side and almost continues this cycle of violence, cutting
off his father's hand when his father had cut off
his hand in the previous movie. His active heroism is
(46:34):
throwing away his weapon, which by the way, is a
very phallic weapon, and refusing to fight to let those
things control him, embracing those more feminine coded traits like empathy,
and this act brings out the empathy and love in
Darth Vader and breaks the cycle. Luke also rejects the
old Jedi order as well as the Empire, much like
(46:54):
feminism demands systemic change right, and I.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
Will add some psychologists see this as the break of
the edible cycle, specifically refusing to kill the father instead,
he sacrifices and suffers for him.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yeah, and there's a lot of comparisons to Christianity in there. Yeah,
this is just something clearly I think too much about this, perhaps,
but it is something that's been on my mind, especially
since I'm on this show now and watching it. And yes,
there is a lot of sexual imagery if you look
for it, if you if you want the turning, the
(47:30):
turning on of the lightsabers, the egg like guath Star
and the sperm like X wings trying to land a shot.
Speaker 4 (47:37):
It's there, Samantha. And another thing I wanted to.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Touch on very briefly is Luke Skywalker's sexuality because I
think the fact that he doesn't have a romantic interest
in the movies other than a fairly forced plotline with Leyah,
who yes, it's his sister, although the writers didn't know
that until Return of the Jedi, so.
Speaker 5 (47:57):
A lot.
Speaker 4 (47:58):
Yeah, Well, because I I was really curious, when did
they know this was true?
Speaker 3 (48:02):
I'm saying they didn't know here, They didn't know here,
they knew here.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
You're welcome, Samantha, and I'm sorry once again.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
Means that at least, if fan fiction is any guide,
it's easier for people to see their sexual identity reflected
in Luke Skywalker. The actor Mark Hamill even spoke to that,
saying you can believe whatever you want when it comes
to his sexual identity. And yes, I know this is
not the same as the importance of explicit representation, something
we need more of and I am so ready for.
(48:31):
I really wanted in the New movies been in Poe
to end up together. Alas in the Extended Universe Legends universe,
Luke did go on to marry a woman, although that
doesn't mean he's straight necessarily. The reason I wanted to
bring this up is because, as you all know, I've
been reading a.
Speaker 5 (48:48):
Lot of fan fiction lately and I've noticed that in
the world of Star Wars fan fiction there are a
lot of a sexual, a romantic Luke Skywalker stories, which
is something I have never literally ever in all my
years of fan fiction scene before.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
That doesn't mean it wasn't there at all.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I have very specific fan fiction circles that I traffic in,
but for me, i'd never seen it, and I've enjoyed
quite a few of those stories. Also a lot of
bisexual han solo stories.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
And speaking of that, I've also sort of fallen into
the Han solo Luke Skywalker ship, which is you.
Speaker 4 (49:22):
Tell us Guy solo?
Speaker 3 (49:24):
Yeah, would you tell us a lot about Also.
Speaker 4 (49:27):
I can't not see it, and I don't know why
or how that is.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Even the story I'm writing is sort of a one
sided Sky solo story, even though there might be romance
element later.
Speaker 4 (49:38):
Who knows what the characters will do. I certainly am
not controlling the actions.
Speaker 5 (49:43):
I'll find out as I write, but that's one of
the things I love about fan fiction, and I'm clearly
using it to work. Three things, And yes, before you ask,
it's not published again.
Speaker 4 (49:54):
I think it could kill someone. It's so sad.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
It's made me crime multiple times writing it, and I
do again I want to put out there. I'll take
a prompt because I was gonna read a section of
my fan fiction on here, but I couldn't find a
good non sad section other than a drunk Han solo
which doesn't have to do with Leah or even this
kind of Luke Skywalker feminis thing. And yeah, I mentioned
(50:20):
twin Stop is a really popular fan fiction thing where
Luke and Layer swopped and the fanfic world took that
and ran with it.
Speaker 4 (50:28):
Because there is an early version of Star Wars draft.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
That it was like that, right, And I do know
she did tell me plenty of times that Luke was
originally written as a woman, and then where there were
stairs between Han and Luke, he would make sure that
we knew that it would have changed everything if he
was a woman.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
I feel like I was just trying to pick the point,
perhaps clumsily, that if Luke had been a woman, people
would have assumed romantic things.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
Yeah, that's exactly the point that you were saying. But yeah,
definitely was like oh oh oh, I mean it makes sense.
There was a lot of agreement. Ah and there and
now I have never known, but you've definitely let us know.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
Oh yeah. I went into detail about the uh, the
hot scene and the sharing of the body heats.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
And and then like Han was supposed to leave, but
then he heard Luke was in peril, so change.
Speaker 4 (51:26):
Oh I was so annoying. I'm sorry, No, you weren't.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
You weren't annoying. You were enjoying yourself. My partner was
enjoying himself, and I was just there.
Speaker 4 (51:39):
Oh man, Well I really appreciate it. I meant the
world to me to share.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
It with you. I was glad to share it with you.
I was glad to see the excitement I think between
those and aliens to watch movies with the two, well,
especially you, because I think you and I have watched
several movies together. But yeah, the excitement that you have
because it definitely went with you to Spider Man Spider Verse,
sorry scholars, as well as some of the Marvel movies.
(52:03):
The joy, the pure joy. But this was the climax
of it all.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
It's it's definitely like this and Harry Potter and probably
this a little bit more. Is like I said, it's
like my soul is part of my soul, and it
does it made me think about the importance of storytelling
and that we can enjoy all these things together and
we can have all these interpretations of it, and it
can be so impactful for a young child to see
(52:30):
Princess Leigh and think, oh, I can't do.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
That, and that's really really powerful.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
And I feel like I grew up with these characters
and sometimes I catch myself missing them, like I.
Speaker 4 (52:40):
Miss Princess Leah, and that's fair.
Speaker 5 (52:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
Yeah, So we've been talking for a while about this.
We were gonna have some holiday special discussion, but I
guess we'll table that. Oh And I wanted to put
in on here that I was legitimately afraid to do
this research, one that I'd never stop and two that
(53:06):
I would come away feeling terrible about something that I loved.
But like I said, why, I totally recognize Star Wars
has its problems, that Star Wars fandom certainly has its problems.
All this did was strengthen my love for the original
trilogy and for Leya in particular.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Right, I would say, as a person who came in
in this day and age, I didn't feel it as
problematic as some things like a John Hughes film for sure.
And I okaye, I think Leah was a great character.
I think knowing who Carrie Fisher was and also what
she tried to represent also made it a bigger impact,
and I could see why she was a phenomenal individual
(53:44):
to play this character.
Speaker 4 (53:47):
Yeah, it was perfect.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Like we said in that one quote from the part
one where it seems like just a million different things happened, correctly,
like it was just so random of an amazing that
this came together, and she was a huge part of that. Right,
So I'm so thankful, Thankful for her, Thankful for it,
Thankful for you, Samantha for sharing this with me, Thankful
(54:12):
for listeners who maybe like, oh no, two hours.
Speaker 3 (54:16):
I don't know those people are going to say, oh no.
I think they're going to appreciate the fact that you
love it as much as you do, and they probably
there's still a lot of people out there who loves
it as much as you do.
Speaker 5 (54:28):
Well, I'm happy to share my love. And I could
have kept going and going and going, as you know. Okay,
so I know I mentioned it quiz, but again we've
I've really gone on and on about this episode's already
super long. It was supposed to be a one part
episode and now it's two hours.
Speaker 3 (54:44):
To be fair, I knew it was going to be
two part.
Speaker 4 (54:46):
The minute well.
Speaker 5 (54:50):
You know me so well, so we're not going to
do the quiz in this episode, but we will do
it later off screen.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
I'll I want to I know what character you get, Samantha.
I have my theory and I want to see if
I'm correct.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
You're going to have to write this out on a
piece of paper or okay, email it to me and
I won't open it.
Speaker 4 (55:10):
Okay, I got Luke Skywalker, which again I don't know
what to make of that.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
I guess it goes back to my theory if we
all ultimately love some version of ourselves who we want
to be.
Speaker 4 (55:22):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
Yes, So that brings us to the end of this
epic two parter. I hope I did it justice and
thank you again everyone. If you have any Star Wars
thoughts you'd like to share, our ideas for future episodes
or topics we should cover, please write them to us.
(55:43):
Our email is Stuff Media Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks
as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, who was
also a fan. Yeah, and thanks to you for listening
Stuff I'm Never Told You, the production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(56:05):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha and welcome to stuff
I Never told your production of iHeart Radio, And welcome
to our part two classic rerun.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm Princess Leiah. Whether you celebrate Revenge of the fifth
or Revenge of the sixth, because people disagree about which
one is the better kind of rhyming scheme. Either way,
I hope you enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hey this Sanny and again Samantha, and.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Welcome to stuff I've Never told your production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Always have to pretend like a surprise like I'm still here.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I love your tone of surprise always with you, the
tone of surprise they have.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
You have to switch it up because you know why not?
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Definitely keep me and the listeners on our toes.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I actually, how do you feel about a good like
surprise or twist?
Speaker 4 (01:20):
In medias? At the.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
It's according to what kind of surprise or twist there is.
Like I will say, if it gets too dark and
I don't know there's a happy ending, I'm gonna quit.
But if you tell me that's going to be a
happy ending, I'll be better.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I love a good surprise.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
And a good twist, like if it's if it's just
ridiculous and unearned. I don't like that, right, But something
like from these movies we're talking about today, Star Wars,
I am your father.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
I would have loved to have had that surprise.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
It's kind of like the I See Dead People.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Yeah I did that too. I had. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I went through such a big sixth sense phase because
I love horror, and good horror can sometimes be hard to.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Find, right, and to be fair, you only can get
that once. I know that's a sad part.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
But you you are someone who has watched movies with me,
and movies that I love, and you know, I get
reinvested every time as if I'm like you.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It's almost like you get surprised again, like the way
you're so invested that when I look at your face, you're.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Like, oh, oh.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
My gosh, that I truly believe that it's the first
time you've seen it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, And I've wondered about that. And I had a
friend who kind of like interviewed me.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
She said, so, tell me, why is it every time
we watch these movies you've seen hundreds of times together,
you act as though you've never seen it.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
And I was trying to explain that. For me, it's
almost like I can count on these feelings and stations.
It gives me every time, and that's why I keep
watching them and I love those. It's almost like writing
a roller coaster. I love writing roller coasters. Write a
million times.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
And if you knew, it's true, because when we've written
ride together, you do act like it's a new thing
for you. You're so excited about it in advance. So
for you, when we were talking about the Star Wars
that was the first time you wrote it, what was
your feels other than because the initial was that you
were so excited that you almost tore, like you almost
(03:30):
had tears in your You did have tears in your
eyes as you were like, we're going to write it.
What was your feel after the fact that you wrote
it for the first time? You were quiet?
Speaker 4 (03:40):
I was quiet.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
I was like almost euphoria, just a relief and a
happiness that we did this.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I've been so worried about it. I thought we would
never make it happen. And it was around two pm
that we finally got to write it, and it was Oh,
I can't believe that it happened.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
All these things could have gone wrong, and we.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Did, and we were we were kind of scared that
it was going to go wrong, whether it was weather,
whether it was being backed up, whether it would break down.
Because also I had this experience with you with the
Hagrid Rod Yes, and I was like, we can't leave
here without you actually writing this ride, because I think
that would have been one of the biggest disappointments for
(04:26):
you and for me to see you write it, to
see you after the fact and the stories that you had. Yeah,
but it's kind of that same level.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, I am so glad you were like, you have
to write this ride.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
No better what I.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Really know, I wasn't gonna let you leave without that.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I love how supportive you are. It's one of my
favorite things about you. You made sure that happened, and
I am so glad that I wrote that.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Right, I will say, you make it easy because I
know what you love. Yes, And that's like first and
foremost one of the things that I love about my friends.
And by the way, when we read the listener letter
about her friend doing the Harry Potter, she actually tweeted
her friend tweeted about how much she loved her friend
for doing that. That is the stuff that I love
(05:11):
about women loving women and our female supporting females. But
that is what I see, like, I'm like, oh my god,
Annie has to do this because she loves it. Of course,
I love to teach you and be like, no, it's
never happening. But just watching this movie, just seeing you
on these rise, this passion. I don't know if I've
ever felt passionate like that, and you do, and it's
(05:31):
fun to watch.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
I'm glad.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I'm glad because, as I said in the last one
in part one of our Princess Leah Star Wars Overview,
I've been embarrassed about it.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Like still to this day, I struggle with it.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I think fandom is more accepted now, but when I
was younger, I definitely felt like a weirdo.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
And even my older brother, who loved Star Wars, he
would make fun of me for liking Star Wars and
he said I was too into it and it was strange,
and luckily for me, I was too in it to
be deterred.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
And I love that. I think people who love things
are genuinely you know who they are, yeah, And to me,
they are die hard and loyal and loyalty is really
hard to find.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
And I think that fandom certainly can be toxic, and
we've talked about that before.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
And I am someone who.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I'm able to separate the things that I love about
Star Wars in particular, or anything that I do really love,
the good things and the bad things. And like, sure,
I didn't like this movie, but that doesn't ruin everything
else for me. And I know for some people it does, right,
but for me it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
And just to put this out there, loving anything too much, yes,
obsession is dangerous, yes, But to be able to love
something it is a genuinely good thing. And for those
who support friends, those who uh for me like I Again,
I think I've talked about this before about attachment issues.
I don't quite understand this level of this bond, but
(07:15):
I love it when I see it because I wish
I could be as in it as you are.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Well you, I'm so glad it met so much to
me that you watched these the feed and you shared
it with me, because yeah, we are.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
This is our part two of.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Our epic Star Wars Princess Leiah Feminism Overview. Please go
check out part one if you haven't listened to it already,
in which we talk about the cultural impact of Star
Wars in Leia, and we did the plot overview of
a New Hope and Impire strikes back from the original
(07:50):
trilogy because we're mostly focusing on those, and today we're
gonna start with Return of the Jedi, which is the
final one in this original it's much maligned. It was
my favorite as a kid. It's still my second favorite,
and you can judge me for that if you want.
But Imperi stikes Pact number one turned the Jedi Hope.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
So in Retard of the Jedi, Leah poses as a
bounty hunter to infiltrate Jaba's palace to save Han, which
by the way, I didn't know who Jaba was, and
he had to tell me who the Green Slide was.
I got it. I got it. And a lot of
people joke that she is on a mission to save
her prince. I agree with that, but it's found out
(08:34):
after freeing Han from carbonite and enslaved by Jaba, changed
by his side, which is the scene and that I know, yes,
this is where Slave Leah and the metal bikini comes in. That,
I mean, I get it. It was very sexist, but
damn she looked good in it. She did. She looked good, which,
by the way, again was one of the three scenes
(08:55):
that I knew about. Of course everyone knows about that,
I guess one. So Luke Han and Chewey are sent
us to death as they fight their way out, and
Leah strangles Jaba with her chase because she is a badass,
and she kills him with the tools of her oppression
and escapes. And by the way, I think I did
(09:16):
make a few comments about how Chewy looked really rough
in DC.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
He did, and I always forget that possibly someone doesn't
know my level of nerd them, and I know you
had to deal with that, because I'll just forget, like, oh,
you don't know all these things that I just know.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Uh yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Java is kind of this big crime lord who Han
had a big debt to and so after we got
frozen in carbonite, got sent to Java hanging on his
wall like an ornament.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
So I learned about the Mandalorian at this point.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
I don't think I ever explained that properly to you,
but yes, because.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Well I think if you didn't, my partner Joe tried to,
and I was just like staring back and forth at
both of you. So I learned about the two of them.
I also learned that the original clunky scene.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Was due to Java, right, uh, yeah, well it's the Gredo.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Who's Holly Fryes super fan, Holly fries favorite character.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
I'm not calling her super fan, she's super she is
an expert. You're right, we should give her the respect
she is new. Yeah, yeah, I actually have a whole thing.
And I'm going to come back to this once we
get to the newer movies. But I'm not sure you're
aware of this, Samantha, but a lot of people love
Boba Fett, who is the bounty hunter that that looks
(10:37):
like the Mandalorian, And I just think he's bad at
his job.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
And well, I did keep asking where's the baby?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yes you did.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
What's his name?
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Well everyone calls him baby Yoda, which is not baby Wrecked.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
But yeah, well I just and so therefore, because I
know about Baby Yoda and the popularity and the cuteness
of Baby Yoda, I called everything baby something.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Also, I didn't mean for that to sound judgmental. That
everyone gets I also call it baby.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
I'm just saying it's unjudgmental. It is exactly what it is.
I who knows nothing of Star Wars. No no, no, no, no, no,
super cute and then everything is baby something.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yes, yes, I appreciated it. So yeah, yeah, there's big crime.
Lord Leah kills him. When Carrie Fisher was asked if
she wanted a stunt double to kill Jaba.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
She's like, hell no, I want to do it.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yes, And this is probably the scene that causes the
most feminist discussion kind of ire. It was definitely a
way of catering to the male gaze, although it is
worth pointing out that when these movies themselves came out,
they were not seen as four men and boys.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
That came later, that came around the time of Return
of the Jedi.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
I think this is a scene that I was like, oh, look,
there's the one Asian girl.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
But we talked about this in our Star Wars Feminism
episode and her Action Figures episode about how this series
sort of got really drawn into as part of the
fact that merchandising was such a big part of it,
the rebranding in the nineties of this is for Boys
and this is for girls, and it was firmly set
aside as this is for boys and slave, Leia is
(12:27):
absolutely serving this cause this became instant sex symbol, and
this is the image that many publications use of her.
Even My Fancy Star Wars Encyclopedia in their entry.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
For Laya, that is the image that they use, and.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
It was the image they used on the nineteen eighty
three cover of The Rolling Stones in Return of the
Jedi was announced. It has inspired so much cosplay it
has a cult following of its own, despite having only
two minutes of screen time. That is one of the
three things that you knew about this movie is very
revealing because it's two minutes or less. Fisher has spoken
(13:09):
about how miserable it was to film these scenes and
how the mail crew mocked her. That dignity was out
of the question, as she said, and it was made
of metal, or at least one of them was, so
it didn't really move with her. One version was made
of rever, but she had to be very careful about
how she moved, and she's expressed her annoyance that the
(13:29):
costume has been taken out of context of that scene
becoming synonymous with sexy. A parent even recently complained that
the Leya in a metal bikini toy was being sold
at Target that it was too sexy, when if you
think about what's happening in those scenes, it's horrendous, and
Leah's expression of contempt and rage communicates her feelings about it,
(13:52):
and the fact that she ultimately kills the one who
tried to take power from her and Jaba, her captor,
and the one viewing her as a.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Sex object is objectively gross. He's gross.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
He kind of serves as a stand in for those
that would objectify her, and you do not want to
be Java. He's leering, his tongue is rolling out. Almost
every scene with Leah in this outfit comes with Java
in the background or reminder that if you're fantasizing about
this non consensual situation, well you have something in common
(14:26):
with this disgusting creature right here. This is something people
often ignore or forget. What they remember of all Leah
has done is that she was really hot in that bikini,
and that is so frustrating. It's something we as women
see all the time. We can lead a rebellion for
three movies but still be remembered for when we were
at our weakest and most humiliated, and the fact that
(14:49):
she is known here as slave Leah, which is never
used in the script. By the way, that's something culture
and fans assigned to her and not just Leyah is
disturbed and very indicative. A lot have accused George Lucas
of having his cake and eating it too, of catering
to the mailgize while also condemning it.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Right. So, there is an episode of Friends where Rachel
dresses up in the metal bikini for ross. I guess
it's called the one with the Princess Leah fantasy, and
there are slave Leya burlesque routines, billy dancing routines, and
strip routines. Also collectors items and toys, which is all yuck.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, I do like some of the dance and burlesque
routines or reclaim it, which is really cool as like
a power power scene. I personally prefer dressing up as
Leah to get out of jury duty on thirty Huck,
even though she shouldn't be embarrassed for cosplay, I say,
as I'm in cosplay, and Carrie Fisher's guest appearance on
(15:51):
that show is fantastic.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
It is so good. It's probably one of my favorite episodes,
especially with the whole icon of her being a writer
and a strong female writer for a field that is
dominated by men in her age, so like it was
just so stacked. There's so many layers to that episode
with Carrie Fisher and also Carrie Fisher as a comedian. Yes,
(16:15):
she is amazing, Her timing is freaking.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Amazing, fantastic, fantastic. That one's called Rosemar's Baby, if anyone
has missed it, and there's a lot. There's a lot
(16:38):
of debate in the Star Wars community about whether jab
assaulted Leah in this scene. The consensus seems to be no,
that the outfit was his way of taking away her power.
There's also a lot of informal research on why the
costume has resonated so much with women and why so
many women cosplay it. Dancer Amir Sayid, who has used
(16:59):
the outfit in her tears, have said quote, Jaba put
her into the outfit to humiliate her, but Leah was
such a strong character her will made the costume empowering.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Right, and some fans have rebranded Slave Leah as Leah
the Hutslayer, as they should, and Amy Schumer poked fun
at this in a photo shoot as well. Yes, yes,
and as you have told me a couple of times,
and any k Fisher advised you Star Wars actress Daisy
Ridley not to let them put her in a bikini,
and apparently that was a wise statements.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And I do want to throw in here just a note.
This is still hotly debated. I have read arguments that
Leah killing Jaba is not empowering. I've read so many
that it is. I think a part of the problem
is the way mostly masculine fan culture around Star Wars
tries to reduce things like she was rescued on the
(17:54):
desk star, which is technically true, but misses the whole
context of the saying it she was a sexy prisoner
of Java, which again, it just doesn't have the context.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
So I don't know how you let go of the
fact that she killed him. She killed her prisoner. I
think that overpowers the fact that she was a sexy prisoner.
If she was able to kill him and get away
with it and become the princess.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Yes, she's ah, I love it, get him leyah Uh.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Leah after that joins the ground team to destroy the
shield generators.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
I know this is a lot of technical speak.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
It's not super important, so that the rebellion can destroy
the Death Star volunteering after she learns that Han is
leading this group and her surprise, and to her surprise
is a general accepting a position and a cause important
to her that he for a long time a shirt
And this is when he's proved his commitment his love,
and she shows hers by trusting his leadership at I mean,
(18:52):
at the start of the movie, she never would have
trusted Han to lead anything.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I mean, he's handsome, but he's kind of dumb.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
He has a lot of growing up to do, for sure.
And Han does not try to sideline her protect her.
He's happy she wants to be on his team.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
He knows she's useful and very competent, and I do
love She's not really defined by this.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Relationship, and she doesn't lose herself in it.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
She acknowledges what she wants and needs and accepts the
fact that she does in fact have those things, and
that's okay. She goes on to lead a speeder chase
after some Stormtroopers, is separated from the group and fights
all some enemies and joins the Ewoks, which are the
little teddy bear.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I call them teddy bears.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
You also, I feel like you kept mixing up wookies
in ewoks.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I did. I did, absolutely, Even now as we talk
about it, I won't say either one of those honestly,
because I don't know which is which.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
That's totally fair. It's totally fair.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I just called them the cute things.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, I would have understood. Again, I can translate your
Star Wars speak.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
The interesting thing is like to prove the point of
how successful merch was for these movies, E Walks never
said in the movie Wampa, the ice creature from Empire
strikes Back, that is my fan fiction name.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Never said name or never not in credit.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
So I didn't know what a wampa was until you
showed me. I know, and I can guarantee if you
gave me a pictures of all of these things, I
probably would get one out of three.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Right, Well, you better be ready because there's a quiz
at the end. Oh no, I'm just kidding kind of Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Then, Luke, I've seen the outline.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
There's quizzes. Don't look ahead in my outline.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Luke goes on to tell her that she is Luke's
twin sister and Darth Vader, her past tormentor in arch Nemesis,
is their dad, and she tells Luke to run away,
that she she wishes she could go with him, but
he immediately calls her bluff. He says, you've always been strong, Leah,
and some as we alluded to in the part one
(20:57):
of this, some people take issue with this scene that
she didn't have a bigger reaction to the revelation that
this person who tortured me and was very instrumental in
the blowing off my home planet is my father, and
she does have more experience because of that than Luke
(21:19):
does with Darth Vader. But I feel like if she had,
people would have taken issue with that too. She's being
too emotional. It does to me seem in keeping with
her character that she takes it in stride.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
I will say, I will say you to that, like
I think people, as an adopted woman, myself an adopted girl,
there's a lot of things that you understand and even
though there's an idealization. Again I'm getting too literal with this,
but there's an understanding that there's a reason you're not
with your biological and of course this is a dramatic
(21:51):
version of he's evil and he did things to you.
But in actuality, the truth of the matter is that
the reason that you were not with your biological parent,
there is a component of not necessarily evil, but a
dark side. So I will say for me, it made sense.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
And I'm someone who when I get news that i'm
I know is big and I'm gonna have an emotional response,
I usually have a pretty delayed response.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
I think that's me too. I am one of those
that sits calmly and then walks away and reacts after
the fact. I've been called out for that a couple
of times.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
I have too.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I had a two friends tell me that, you know,
they've been dating forever and they thought that I was
I didn't believe them or I was mad at them
because I didn't have a bigger reaction, but I just
I took it and stride and I like to I
like to think over things and make sure I'm responding
in a way that captures how I feel and.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
What I think. So I guess I sort of connected
with her on that.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And a lot of people have said she's she's playing chess,
she's doing alliance versus Empire in her head. Meanwhile, Luke
is doing a much more personal battlefield so it has
a bigger impact on him. So moving on, she fights
alongside Han and Chewey and is slightly injured but keeps going.
She gets to flip the I love you I know
(23:19):
on Han. The heroes are victorious, a party ensues. She
is and Carrie Fisher herself has said this she is
more supportive and feminine in this one, completing her arc
of allowing herself to lean on others to be more vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
I also like the flip that she did with or
not necessarily she, but the writer, I don't know who
did it on the fact that he's the one that's
insecure about the relationship and she's the one who's like,
calm down, is not what you think.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
And I do love that moment.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I have never because I'm not into romance, I've never
really given much thought to the Han and Lance relationship,
but I did, like, I read an article specifically for this,
and they were kind of saying what you saying, Samantha's
it's a sort of a flip because then Emperor strikes
back too. She's the one that's sort of having intimacy
commitment issues, and Han's the one trying to get her
(24:11):
to admit, you know you, he wants, he needs something.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
I think we see so many films with women being
in the triangle and be like as cool as cool,
I'll be the best friend, I'll do this or whatever right,
and she's and she's the one. No, No, calm down,
you're being emotional. It's okay, you're reading the things. It's
not what you think.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, and I had to put this in there. Samantha
heard my holes feel I'll try to shorten it, though.
I have a beef that Darth Vader's last words are
tell your sister you were right about me. Man, you
tortured her, dude, And those are some pretty selfish last
words say.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I will say, first thing, and he told me right
after that scene, right after that scene, and I will say,
not necessarily to me, I think she was just making
an outright statement.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Was that's oh no, that's what.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
No, you're still a bad guy. You tortured her. That
that was the initial statement that I kind of looked at.
I was like, you're right, you're absolutely this does not
justify what you did to her.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
No, I'm cladding on my side, I am, and I
did just want to put this in here because.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
It does come up in a lot of feminist essays
about Princess Leah, which you would not believe how many
there are.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Maybe you would.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
It's Vagerder's threat to turn Lea to the dark side
that goes Luke into attacking Darth Vader, cutting off Vader's
hands and almost losing himself his hands and almost losing
himself to the dark side.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Some interpret that as sort of the whole hero I
mean to justify violence or.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, yeah, so put that out there, and then moving
on to the new the new Ones, which we're again
not going to talk about too much. You can hear
more about that in Our especially the Last Jedi's feminism, uh,
in Our feminism and Star Wars episode because that movie
really does have a lot going on when it comes
to feminism. But Leya reprised by Carrie Fisher.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
By the way, I did not see this, so all
of this is just conjecture from my point of view.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
No, but I would love, like I won't make you
watch it, but I would love to just tell you
what happens in it, because it's kind of shocking how
much feminist dialogue is in it okay, so Leya reprised
by Carrie Fisher. She's the one that stays. So These
take place a couple of decades after the original trilogy
and Han has left. Luke is socially distancing way before
(26:36):
it was cool, but Leya stayed to lead the fight
against the First Order, which is the New Empire, and
her son is a member of that. And it's revealed
that she was trained by Luke to be a Jedi,
but she had a vision that if she completed her training,
her son would die, so she.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
Gave it up. No spoilers.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
When it was announced that she would return, of course,
the lot of internet was like she's too oh, sho's
too fat. On the flip side, people were really worried
that she'd just be a token or a cameo, but
she's running the whole show. She definitely teaches Flyboy Po
a valuable lesson about listening to and respecting women in
the Last Jedi, even though a lot of people did
(27:20):
not like it. When asked what she wanted fans to
take away from Leya in the new movies, Fisher said,
never give up. Fisher was also very outspoken that Leah
remained a strong character for the generations who had grown
up looking up to her, and for new generations as well.
To stay true to Princess Leiah and the fans of
Princess Leah. And to Twitter trolls commenting on her looks
(27:44):
and age, Carrie Fisher responded, please start debating about whether
or not I have aged well. Unfortunately, it hurts all
three of my feelings. My body has an aged well
as I have. Youth and beauty are not accomplishments, their
temporary happy by products of time and or DNA. Don't
hold your breath for either. Also, here's another controversial thing
(28:04):
I want to say, because this causes a lot of
argument in the Star Wars fan community.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Kyler Renn is a bad Jedi. I'm just gonna leave
that there.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Like people like to complain that Ray was too good,
too fast, maybe Kyler Renn was just bad.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
Have we ever thought about that.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
I would just like to say once again, the Stormtroopers
and the damn guns, they did not use them because
it never touched people. I'm just very confused with what
they were used for other than a laser show. Because
other than bring a little smoke here and there. It
rarely killed someone. I don't understand how bad they are
at aim and why they are stormtroopers if they can't
(28:39):
aim a laser.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
That is a running joke in the series, and I
loved watching it with you as someone who hadn't seen
it and just seeing you immediately pick up on it.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Why has no one hit any of them? If there's
twenty of them with laser guns and three of them
with two guns, why.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Maybe they're just bad or see. My theory is maybe
their hearts weren't in it and they were just pretending.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Maybe they were like they just wanted a laser show, right, Yeah,
I mean, to be fair, I feel like none of
the good guys were able to hit the bad guys either,
Like it was very fair. You know who did really well?
Speaker 4 (29:17):
E Walks and rocks, Yeah, spears.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah, I mean they got them one e walk died rip,
but then they got them with vines and rocks. That's
all I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yes, yeah, I mean that's one of the reasons people
really don't like Return of the Jedi. But yes, so
in the Legends Universe, which is all the books that
came out after the movies and books and comics and
everything that Disney has now said is not canon. So
it's called Legends. But in that she becomes a Jedi
(29:51):
and a leader of the New Republic. Oh my gosh,
we could talk so much, or I could, because I've
read all these things about Lea in Legends.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
But then this episode never end.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
And I did ask her to end it at page
twenty two.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
She did, She stepped in, she put the foot down,
So thanks Samantha for that. Listeners.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
There's political marriages, there's a whole book called the Courtship
of Princess Leiah. There's multiple kidnappings, pheromone seduction which scared
me as a kid, forgiveness, forgiveness. When Luke turns to
the dark side, Lea resists similar temptations, and it's able
to turn Luke back side. Uh he did in one
of the books. Oh yeah, and I went into all
(30:32):
the Luke Skywalker clone whose name is Luke with two us.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
That's also in the books. It's one of my favorites.
In fact, too, Lukes, this can't get any better.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
I'm not ready for all of this.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Okay, So that's sort of a very uh somehow both
very long and very short runout of the plot of
these movies. So now we're going to talk about feminism
and Princess Leiah. But first we're gonna pop for a
quick break for word from our sponsor, and we're back.
(31:16):
Thank you, sponsor. So, as we said in part one,
Princess Leah is widely regarded as a feminist icon. There's
even something called Leyah feminism. Carrie Fisher herself has described
Princess Leah as a huge feminist icon. In response to
those that call her a damsel in distress in movies,
she said she bost them around. I don't know what
(31:37):
your idea of distresses, but that wasn't it. And I
wasn't some babe running around the galaxy with my spouncing around,
so I wasn't threatening to women. Carrie Fisher was instrumental
in this characterization of Leah. She was a Hollywood script
fixer and she was very involved in making Leyah what
she was. She said she loved Leah, she loved her feiciness,
(31:57):
the fact that she killed Jab of the Hut, and
her the Princess Diarist. She wrote that she was quote
honored to be Leah's representative here on Earth. She has
often said that she was Leah and Leyah was her
and I love that. I love when you find an
actor who embraces this right.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
I think it's I.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
Think it was because she created it, so she loved it.
It was a part of her exactly. When this character debuted,
there weren't many strong female role models in movies and television.
Most female characters served as decorations or prizes to be one.
Leah was vastly different when compared to other princesses at
the time, and still is in many ways. She was
(32:38):
our first badass princess in pop culture, and especially important
when we think about entertainment aim towards children. Because these
were seen as children's movies, she became an instant icon
for girls and women. She defied stereotypes about women and
princesses and what they could do in the new movies.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Her title is general. In the early days, women ran
star wars, fanzunes, and fan clubs.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I'm in.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Some second wave feminists criticized Princess Leah when the film
came out for her masculine traits. This was during the
Vietnam War, when masculinity was associated with war and violence.
And people had a lot of anxiety around that. Take
this quote from a nineteen eighty five Time article, masculinity
itself becomes a horror all rage and aggression and reptilian brain.
(33:29):
Second wave feminism was largely founded alongside the anti war movement.
Lea was a military leader and orchestrated battles that led
to many deaths. When she wasn't doing that, she was
a prisoner of war, so she was at odds with
this anti war part of second wave feminism. It was
really young girls at the time that latched onto her
(33:50):
as a role model, and a lot of those girls
became third wave feminist, which didn't have as strong of
an anti military bent, and they bought their life of
Leah with them. This is also around the time of
the sexual Revolution, Roe v. Wade and the backlash to
all of that, which in part explains the rebanding of
Star Wars as a dude thing uh and the Gold Bikini, which,
(34:13):
since it was the last movie, happened a little later,
even though girls and women had been fans of Star
Wars since the very beginning. JJ Abrams made this mistake
recently on Good Morning America that the original trilogy was
for boys, and the backlash rolls into it.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
It should be.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Another related criticism from earlier reviews about Leo was that
she was a damsel in distressed slash love address so
while at the same time complaining she liked femininity and
uh huh, because what doesn't makes sense.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
I guess that's another point of view. You're damned if
you do, dan if you don't.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
It really is because she can rescue people. But if
she shows any femininity, that means that she is a damsel.
But if she is too assertive, then she lacks it. Yeah,
I will say I think that's been a debate in
my head how to be a female, especially in specific
cultural ideas of what feminism is not feminism feminine trait
(35:12):
is versus what feminism is that it has to be
at odds. When that's not true, we can actually fight
for our own rights with the availability of being feminine.
Don't get me wrong. I don't bake things, I don't
make things, and I'm not super cutesy girly. Sometimes I
wish I were. However, I also cannot figure out how
(35:35):
to work mechanics on things.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
I do know how to change a tire. I will
say that's awesome. Yeah, well, and that's when we're going
to talk about this more in a minute. But that's
one thing people actually did really like about Leaves that
she was really as sortive character but also was still feminine.
So from Diana Dominguez and her work feminism and the
(35:58):
force empowerment and disillusion meant in a galaxy far far away,
here was a woman who could play like and with
the boys, but who didn't have to become one of
the boys, and who could if and when she wanted
to show she liked the boys. A woman who is outspoken, unashamed,
and most importantly, unpunished for being so. She isn't a
flirty sex spot tossing her hair around seductively to distract
(36:19):
the enemy. She doesn't play the role of maternal caretaker,
although she does display caring and compassion, or the sweet
innocent damsel who stands passively by while the men do
the work, but does step aside to let them do
what they're good at when it is wise to do so.
Leah is a hero without losing her gendered status. She
does not have to play the cute, helpless sex kitten
(36:39):
or become the sexless androgynist to get what she wants.
She can be strong, sassy, outspoken, bossy and bitchy and
still be respected and seen as feminine. And then there's
a tweet from Hooveyan Feminism about Leah and the importance
of Star Wars. Leah was a different type of princess
than those in most movies shown to girls my age.
She was a polite and military leader. It showed me
(37:01):
a girl who was like me, rough and tumble and
loud and brash and demanding.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
That felt unique and rare at the time.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Star Wars and Leah and Padmey became fundamental parts of
my childhood and identity. They showed me it was okay
to just be me. If you're wondering, Samantha, I'm sure
you're not. But Padmey is Luke and Lea's mother.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Actually I was wondering. I was trying to figure out
who that was. But I was being quiet, like, did
I miss that part in the movie.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
You will definitely show up on the quiz No, no,
no no, that was the prequel series.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Okay, Oh wait, that is that the Nellie Portman character. Okay, Okay,
I didn't know her name.
Speaker 4 (37:38):
Okay, got it.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yes, The character Leah became a symbol of women's protest
marches worldwide, easily the most referenced pop culture character on
protest signs. A women's place is in the resistance, for example,
a rebel rebel with her picture. Mark Hamill even tweeted
about it. I know where she stood, You know where
she stood. Such an honor to see her standing with
you today, bigly you Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
So. After Carrie Fisher's death in late twenty sixteen, right
after the tumultuous election her daughter Billy Lord, which, by
the way, after watching the originals like, oh yeah, they
are so similar in features, she wrote, Leah is more
than just a character. She's a feeling. She is a strength.
(38:23):
She is grace, she is wit, She is femininity at
its fineness, and no one could have played her like
my mother. Princess Leiah is Carrie Fisher. Carrie Fisher is
Princess Leiah. The two go hand in hand.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, that's beautiful. Fisher's openness about her struggles with bipolar
disorder and addiction were groundbreaking. She was outspoken about sexism,
about mental illness, about agism. She was funny, her unwillingness
to sit down and be quiet, we're aspiring, and she
infused so much of that into Leah, and that's what
(38:59):
may Leah is such a powerful impactful character for so many.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
And I just want to put in here because I
don't think you know, I know, you don't know. So
Carrie Fisher actually made a cameo on Sex and the
City and in that level of Carrie Bradshaw, who was
played by Sarah Jessica Parker, she talks about the fact
that there are two Carries who are writers. And at
that point in time, Carrie was seen as a phenomenal
(39:26):
writer as well because her words were so impactful and
powerful this time. So yes, you can put this into
your graph. She was actually acknowledged as a feminine icon
in Sex and the City.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
All right, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
One of the first cameos I saw her in was
Screamed three, where she also was still having some commentary
about hollywood It's treatment of women.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
So there you go. After her death, Christina J.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Widmyer wrote a paper called the Feminist stra Back Performative
Mourning in the Twitter response to Carrie Fisher's death about
the performative grief around it on Twitter and the feminism
it attracted. They were takedowns of dudes who were like,
rip my first boner and about how she was so
much more than just so many Steve Martin even got
in trouble for this, although it was much less boni
(40:19):
or more about her looks, but that she was so
much more and I wanted to read a quote from it.
Many of these tweets become feminists not only because their
authors are expressing certain views of Leah as a character
and Fisher as a person, but also because they are
utilizing beformativity so that their grief furthers a social agenda.
They are, in fact using their tweets as a means
(40:40):
of carrying Ford Fisher's legacy of activism, and they do
so by challenging patriarchal means of mourning and reintroducing Fisher's
activist leanings through their tweets. In this sense, they engage
in a performative goal, both as individuals performing themselves and
as a collective performing a community value. It is through
these performatives that divisions in the fan community are revealed
(41:02):
and negotiated. That was actually really good read.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Writer and Tat's tweeted this thread after Carrie Fisher's death
about General Organa. She's not young, not wearing a gold
bikini ar robe. She's dressed to do what she's been
training her whole life to do, lead the rebellion. This
is the Layah that has lost everything, her world, her parents,
her son to the dark side, her brother to who
knows where, her lover. This is the Laya that could
(41:28):
easily have been broken down or given up, but she
was stronger than literally every man in her life.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
She kept going.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
When I see Fisher as General Organa, I see a
woman who has put up with so much from so
many men, and yet keeps showing up for them. Princess
Leiah was great, but General Organa was Fisher's real gift
to us, And she's who I'm going to be looking
to in dark times. May we all be able to
get up every day and in spite of our pain
and loss and fear, put on our boots and vest
(41:55):
and plan to destroy the empire. General Organa taught me that,
ye you don't have to be special or chosen.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
To be a leader. You just have to show up
and learn and do the work.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
And then another fan, Isaac Breen, tweeted, honor Carrie Fisher,
normalize mental illness and its treatments, take life a little
less seriously, destroy a fascist regime, right.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
And I think that's how I know her myself, as
an amazing writer who spoke truths whether or not you
wanted it, who had amazing comedic timing and enable to
have a conversation and making jokes and making a light
of hard issues that she had to deal with to
normalize for people who can't deal with it, which we
(42:37):
shouldn't have to do, but she was able to do
it as an art form as well as proceed into
a culture where she came from a time period where
you're supposed to be feminine, you're supposed to be these things,
and could have leaned into I was pretty let me
leave it at that. It came out full forces. I
have words, I have thoughts, I have strength. I have
a mother who had to deal with those times of
(43:00):
oppression as a woman, but I refused to be that woman.
And I'm going to teach my daughter to come forward
as a roaring lion and be my own advocate. That's
how I know Carrie Fisher, and she definitely broke barriers,
not being just Lea, which, by the way, a phenomenal character,
but as her individual who leanked into that character to
(43:21):
push forward herself as a woman who delve into women's rights,
feminist rights, and also just human rights.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
Yeah. Yeah, and she did it all well being funny.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Yeah, that's my like. I will say like every time
I saw her outside of any of Star Wars, because
obviously I didn't see her much in Star Wars until recently.
I saw her as a woman with amazing comediic timing
with also the contextual ideas of what is wrong in society.
She did a great job with it without having to
(43:55):
have her own individual platforms like a talk show or something.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
Yeah, which she did have one at one point.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
I don't know if I knew that.
Speaker 4 (44:03):
Yeah, I think so wishful drinking.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
I love that title.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
Yeah, you should check it out. In the meantime, we
do believe it or not, have a little bit more
for you. Oh surprise, surprise.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
But first we have one more coickbreak for a word
from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So
this is what I will call an Annie original. I
(44:41):
haven't found too much research on this because it's really
difficult to search and I tried, but it's something that's
been on my mind ever since we did our feminism
in Harry Potter episode. And so this is what I
call in the outline my feminist Luke Skywalker discussion, because
I did.
Speaker 5 (44:59):
I did.
Speaker 4 (45:00):
I want to talk about how in that in Harry
Potter and in.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Star Wars, there are these main male characters, Luke Skywalker
and Harry Potter, which by the way, are both my
biggest crushes fictional crushes of all time, is more balanced
when it comes to traditionally feminine and masculine traits, and
some have even argued that these are essentially female characters
in the stereotypical sense. Are they're more like female characters.
(45:26):
Luke was originally written as a female character, so if
you think about Luke Skywalker, he has plenty of masculine
coded traits like hot headedness, recklessness, but he's far more
balanced with feminine coded traits like empathy, compassion, loyalty. When
you take that even further with how Luke in particular
interacts with the Force, because you've got Obi Wan and Yoda,
(45:49):
his mentors telling him that he has to confront and
essentially kill his father Darth Vader to become a Jedi,
and Luke saying he can't do it because he's so
strongly believed and can feel that they're still good In
Darth Vader, and after he turns himself over to Vader,
who turns him over to the Emperor, the Emperor is
(46:12):
urging him to embrace his anger given to his aggression
kill his father. Violence and anger stereotypically masculine traits, and
when Luke does that, he almost loses himself to the
dark side and almost continues this cycle of violence, cutting
off his father's hand when his father had cut off
his hand in the previous movie. His active heroism is
(46:34):
throwing away his weapon, which by the way, is a
very phallic weapon, and refusing to fight to let those
things control him, embracing those more feminine coded traits like empathy,
and this act brings out the empathy and love in
Darth Vader and breaks the cycle. Luke also rejects the
old Jedi order as well as the Empire, much like
(46:54):
feminism demands systemic change right, and I.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
Will add some psychologists see this as the break of
the edible cycle, specifically refusing to kill the father instead,
he sacrifices and suffers for him.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yeah, and there's a lot of comparisons to Christianity in there. Yeah,
this is just something clearly I think too much about this, perhaps,
but it is something that's been on my mind, especially
since I'm on this show now and watching it. And yes,
there is a lot of sexual imagery if you look
for it, if you if you want the turning, the
(47:30):
turning on of the lightsabers, the egg like guath Star
and the sperm like X wings trying to land a shot.
Speaker 4 (47:37):
It's there, Samantha. And another thing I wanted to.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Touch on very briefly is Luke Skywalker's sexuality because I
think the fact that he doesn't have a romantic interest
in the movies other than a fairly forced plotline with Leyah,
who yes, it's his sister, although the writers didn't know
that until Return of the Jedi, so.
Speaker 5 (47:57):
A lot.
Speaker 4 (47:58):
Yeah, Well, because I I was really curious, when did
they know this was true?
Speaker 3 (48:02):
I'm saying they didn't know here, They didn't know here,
they knew here.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
You're welcome, Samantha, and I'm sorry once again.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
Means that at least, if fan fiction is any guide,
it's easier for people to see their sexual identity reflected
in Luke Skywalker. The actor Mark Hamill even spoke to that,
saying you can believe whatever you want when it comes
to his sexual identity. And yes, I know this is
not the same as the importance of explicit representation, something
we need more of and I am so ready for.
(48:31):
I really wanted in the New movies been in Poe
to end up together. Alas in the Extended Universe Legends universe,
Luke did go on to marry a woman, although that
doesn't mean he's straight necessarily. The reason I wanted to
bring this up is because, as you all know, I've
been reading a.
Speaker 5 (48:48):
Lot of fan fiction lately and I've noticed that in
the world of Star Wars fan fiction there are a
lot of a sexual, a romantic Luke Skywalker stories, which
is something I have never literally ever in all my
years of fan fiction scene before.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
That doesn't mean it wasn't there at all.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I have very specific fan fiction circles that I traffic in,
but for me, i'd never seen it, and I've enjoyed
quite a few of those stories. Also a lot of
bisexual han solo stories.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
And speaking of that, I've also sort of fallen into
the Han solo Luke Skywalker ship, which is you.
Speaker 4 (49:22):
Tell us Guy solo?
Speaker 3 (49:24):
Yeah, would you tell us a lot about Also.
Speaker 4 (49:27):
I can't not see it, and I don't know why
or how that is.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Even the story I'm writing is sort of a one
sided Sky solo story, even though there might be romance
element later.
Speaker 4 (49:38):
Who knows what the characters will do. I certainly am
not controlling the actions.
Speaker 5 (49:43):
I'll find out as I write, but that's one of
the things I love about fan fiction, and I'm clearly
using it to work. Three things, And yes, before you ask,
it's not published again.
Speaker 4 (49:54):
I think it could kill someone. It's so sad.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
It's made me crime multiple times writing it, and I
do again I want to put out there. I'll take
a prompt because I was gonna read a section of
my fan fiction on here, but I couldn't find a
good non sad section other than a drunk Han solo
which doesn't have to do with Leah or even this
kind of Luke Skywalker feminis thing. And yeah, I mentioned
(50:20):
twin Stop is a really popular fan fiction thing where
Luke and Layer swopped and the fanfic world took that
and ran with it.
Speaker 4 (50:28):
Because there is an early version of Star Wars draft.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
That it was like that, right, And I do know
she did tell me plenty of times that Luke was
originally written as a woman, and then where there were
stairs between Han and Luke, he would make sure that
we knew that it would have changed everything if he
was a woman.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
I feel like I was just trying to pick the point,
perhaps clumsily, that if Luke had been a woman, people
would have assumed romantic things.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
Yeah, that's exactly the point that you were saying. But yeah,
definitely was like oh oh oh, I mean it makes sense.
There was a lot of agreement. Ah and there and
now I have never known, but you've definitely let us know.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
Oh yeah. I went into detail about the uh, the
hot scene and the sharing of the body heats.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
And and then like Han was supposed to leave, but
then he heard Luke was in peril, so change.
Speaker 4 (51:26):
Oh I was so annoying. I'm sorry, No, you weren't.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
You weren't annoying. You were enjoying yourself. My partner was
enjoying himself, and I was just there.
Speaker 4 (51:39):
Oh man, Well I really appreciate it. I meant the
world to me to share.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
It with you. I was glad to share it with you.
I was glad to see the excitement I think between
those and aliens to watch movies with the two, well,
especially you, because I think you and I have watched
several movies together. But yeah, the excitement that you have
because it definitely went with you to Spider Man Spider Verse,
sorry scholars, as well as some of the Marvel movies.
(52:03):
The joy, the pure joy. But this was the climax
of it all.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
It's it's definitely like this and Harry Potter and probably
this a little bit more. Is like I said, it's
like my soul is part of my soul, and it
does it made me think about the importance of storytelling
and that we can enjoy all these things together and
we can have all these interpretations of it, and it
can be so impactful for a young child to see
(52:30):
Princess Leigh and think, oh, I can't do.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
That, and that's really really powerful.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
And I feel like I grew up with these characters
and sometimes I catch myself missing them, like I.
Speaker 4 (52:40):
Miss Princess Leah, and that's fair.
Speaker 5 (52:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
Yeah, So we've been talking for a while about this.
We were gonna have some holiday special discussion, but I
guess we'll table that. Oh And I wanted to put
in on here that I was legitimately afraid to do
this research, one that I'd never stop and two that
(53:06):
I would come away feeling terrible about something that I loved.
But like I said, why, I totally recognize Star Wars
has its problems, that Star Wars fandom certainly has its problems.
All this did was strengthen my love for the original
trilogy and for Leya in particular.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Right, I would say, as a person who came in
in this day and age, I didn't feel it as
problematic as some things like a John Hughes film for sure.
And I okaye, I think Leah was a great character.
I think knowing who Carrie Fisher was and also what
she tried to represent also made it a bigger impact,
and I could see why she was a phenomenal individual
(53:44):
to play this character.
Speaker 4 (53:47):
Yeah, it was perfect.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Like we said in that one quote from the part
one where it seems like just a million different things happened, correctly,
like it was just so random of an amazing that
this came together, and she was a huge part of that. Right,
So I'm so thankful, Thankful for her, Thankful for it,
Thankful for you, Samantha for sharing this with me, Thankful
(54:12):
for listeners who maybe like, oh no, two hours.
Speaker 3 (54:16):
I don't know those people are going to say, oh no.
I think they're going to appreciate the fact that you
love it as much as you do, and they probably
there's still a lot of people out there who loves
it as much as you do.
Speaker 5 (54:28):
Well, I'm happy to share my love. And I could
have kept going and going and going, as you know. Okay,
so I know I mentioned it quiz, but again we've
I've really gone on and on about this episode's already
super long. It was supposed to be a one part
episode and now it's two hours.
Speaker 3 (54:44):
To be fair, I knew it was going to be
two part.
Speaker 4 (54:46):
The minute well.
Speaker 5 (54:50):
You know me so well, so we're not going to
do the quiz in this episode, but we will do
it later off screen.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
I'll I want to I know what character you get, Samantha.
I have my theory and I want to see if
I'm correct.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
You're going to have to write this out on a
piece of paper or okay, email it to me and
I won't open it.
Speaker 4 (55:10):
Okay, I got Luke Skywalker, which again I don't know
what to make of that.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
I guess it goes back to my theory if we
all ultimately love some version of ourselves who we want
to be.
Speaker 4 (55:22):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
Yes, So that brings us to the end of this
epic two parter. I hope I did it justice and
thank you again everyone. If you have any Star Wars
thoughts you'd like to share, our ideas for future episodes
or topics we should cover, please write them to us.
(55:43):
Our email is Stuff Media Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks
as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, who was
also a fan. Yeah, and thanks to you for listening
Stuff I'm Never Told You, the production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(56:05):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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