January 13, 2024 • 57 mins
What actually is self-care, why has it been gendered and why does it matter? Anney and Samantha dig into the ins and outs of self-care and the danger of gendering it in this classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steffone
never told you a production of Buyheart Radio. Okay, So
we are in well into the new year, which blows
my mind, and we've been talking a lot about the
(00:28):
good and the bad of resolutions, especially marketing around resolutions.
You recently had an episode where we even talked about
this briefly. But I want to bring back our episode
we did on the femininization of self care because this
is a very like at the beginning of the year,
self care is a big thing of it, and I
have gotten a series of headlines that are you know,
(00:50):
clearly directed towards women. But we've talked about this before,
but in our show Inbox, we get a lot of
cold emails. Some of the are very funny. Especially love
when they make the mistake in the name part. I
love that you live for that. I also love when
they kind of threaten you where they're like, you don't
(01:10):
respond within five days this offer is I'm like what.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah. I love when they don't know what we do
and just assume that by the title they know what
we do and they just make this random Yeah. Those
are my favorite.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yes, Yes, I do get a kick out of them
sometimes and for anyone who does those, I know, like,
we're not making fun of you, we just get some
that are very comical.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
It is. I used to do that actually for another
job I did. Yes, it's work. So yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
That one dude though, who was like, you really need
a note about how women are ruining the boat.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
They're ruining, women are ruining things for women.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yes, but I have been getting some that are kind
of self care for men and it's very comical to
me and how they phrase it where it's still in
that kind of like very stereotypical manly man.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Like take care of yourself, but look what doing it like,
I'm just.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So perplexed by this whole thing, so in that vein,
I wanted to bring back this classic episode, so please enjoy.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Hey, this is Annie.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And Samantha and OW come to Steff.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I've never told you protection of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
So for today's question, Samantha, I'm not sure you'll know
the answer, but do you remember when you became familiar
with the idea of self care?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You know, I honestly don't think it was until recently
that I learned of this. And when I say recently,
the idea and concept of self care was not something
in my Christian upbringing. Sure, so that was not something
especially as a woman who was supposed to be the
caretaker of the nurturer. That's not a thing. For my mother.
(03:04):
I definitely never saw that from her. She's constantly going.
She is still constantly going to this day and she
is sixty five. So for me, I don't think it
really came into play until I literally had a panic attack,
anxiety attack that shut me down for a week in
when I was working as a child abuse investigator and
(03:27):
I had a panic attack in the middle of Longhorns. Yes,
I did, to the point that my friends were like,
are you okay?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Are you okay?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Like coworkers and they're like, don't look at her, don't
look at her, because then you made it worse, right,
And so it wasn't until then, so out of college
in my first job, that I truly figured out, oh,
I'm trying to kill myself through doing too much and
not taking care of myself because I'm putting the responsibility
of the world on me. So I feel like it
(03:56):
really wasn't until about two thousand and six, so pretty
mch a long time that I understood the concept without
knowing the term, right, and that included a lot of
hiking and exercising, and that was my form of self care.
And don't get me wrong, I'd already started therapy, but
that was trauma related. So self care is really different
from delving into trauma. Yeah, as we all know, as.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
We all know.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
People who listen to this show. Certainly, I actually don't
think I knew about self care because I feel like,
you know, you know about it in terms of taking
care of yourself, but the term and the idea of
like prioritizing it and that it's important, I don't think
I knew until twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, we've talked about it.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Before on the show in several different instances.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
I am really bad at it. I think a lot
of women are.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So even when I was like, Okay, I'm going to
do this self care thing, my attitude around it was
the opposite of what it needed to be. It was
like another check box, right, that made it at another
stressor and oh I have to do this thing. Yeah,
so we are going to talk about that, but I
it's still something I struggle with.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Right, I mean, I think for me, Yeah, the term
was not self care. It was mental health day, which
I know we talk about in my industry where I
came from, with especially with like government jobs or service jobs.
We talk about mental health days and trying to get them.
And it's so frowned upon in that industry. Like they
tell you to do it, they tell you to do
it right, they tell you to shut off your phone,
(05:35):
they tell you that, you know, you take you a
week of vacation, and a few people have, and I
love and admire that, And I think few people have
because they had to and it like they had families
or whatever whatnot, and it caused a lot of problems
in marriages or problems with their children because a lot
of people would put their job first. But we were
told to take our mental health day, but made sure
to be told, don't say it's a mental health day,
(05:57):
tell them you're sick. It's just kind of that level.
So for the longest time, and I know think people
think it that way still, that term is really really
it's definitely become a little more of a fad. The
term not necessarily a practice, so to me, is kind
of a newer idea and it does feel really selfish. Yeah,
to say you need that.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yes, So we're going to talk about that that feeling,
and today we're also going to talk a lot about
how self care has been feminized, how seen as sort
of this purview of women, and it's been in the news.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
A lot lately for a variety of reasons.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
But I did want to bring this up that Pinterest
recently announced guidelines to I guess, foster a healthier environment
on their platform, to be kinder and to be more
positive in general, which I find interesting because Pinterest.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
To me, there's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Great things that can happen on Pinterest, but I see
the negative of almost that like wishful. You know, your
pin board if I want to be what is that
called inspiration and you want to be this thin and
I'm gonna do this and this and this out like
that perfect life that you build, Okay, unhealthy.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I'm not really into Pinterest, so but I'm definitely
seeing the boards and that sounds horrifying because also people
can look at this.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right they can, but you can put it on private.
I think all of mine are on private, except for
my random nineties board.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I was going to a nineties theme party. Now shut
with costume, of course, but all my liked what you'll
find out soon enough, you.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Know what that makes me paining. Let's not take it.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So back to this Pinterest thing is they have this
creator code that says I agree to be kind, check
my facts, be aware of triggers, practice inclusion, and do
no harm, which I'm curious how they will reinforce those.
(08:05):
But we're seeing more social media platforms try to do
these things, which is something else we've.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Talked about a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
And I remember when I first came on as a
host of this show, some people would write in and
say why they didn't like trigger warnings, why they thought
they were like useless and actually harmful, and I would
argue back, like my side of it. And I feel
like it's shifting towards people being more aware of why
(08:34):
you need to think about those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Right, I mean, honestly, that's kind of why we how
that conversation about Trauma Series began, everybody was so leaning
to oh my god, everybody's so PC, they're so sensitive,
blah blah blah. No, but this is why we need
these things, because it has for our entire lives. We
didn't have this, and I really wish we did. Yeah,
(09:00):
this is okay to have those warnings, but why it
was important and why we need to respect them. But yeah,
that's interesting to see because we have kind of gone
all back and forth and back and forth of is
this a problem or is this a solution or is
this adding on to the problems, And it's kind of
I'm really glad to see that it's sticking and it's
(09:20):
becoming a thing, aren't you.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, And I remember in particular, one person was a
professor and they wrote in and they were like, I
just feel that giving trigger warnings it means that topics
that need to be talked about won't be talked about.
And I was like, I hear you, but I think
it doesn't mean I won't show up to whatever lesson.
It just means I'll show up knowing I need to
be prepared for this. And I, obviously you and I
(09:46):
don't think that doesn't mean don't talk about something. It's
just giving people that like warning if they need it
to take care of themselves. And speaking of let's do
a brief definition like we like to do what it
is self care.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
According to the World Health organization. It is quote.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Self care is what people do for themselves to establish
and maintain health and to prevent and deal with illness.
It is a broad concept, encompassing hygiene, general and personal nutrition,
type in quality of food eaten, lifestyle, sporting activities, leisure,
et cetera, environmental factors, living conditions, social habits, et cetera,
socio and economic factors, income level, cultural beliefs, et cetera,
(10:26):
and self medication. This can include things like yes, nutrition, hygiene,
or seeking medical care. It is often described as something
that brings you joy. And this definition is pretty old.
I think it's from nineteen ninety eight actually, and it's
been updated and various outlets like the World Health Organization.
(10:46):
To me, this makes sense, but I think of self
care as a much more like find something, yeah, that
brings you joy and do that thing, right.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
But I do think that large.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Definition that makes sense as well.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Some have put self care into categories like emotional self care,
taking dedicated breaks, physical self care, getting enough sleep, eating well,
and spiritual self care, which can include spending time in nature.
Some break it down even further into temporary versus enduring,
so like a one time self care thing or something
(11:20):
that is an ongoing self care thing. And also I
really recommend looking up.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Actually it's not. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
I thought it was funny, but the World Health Organization
has a self care hippopotamus diagram, which did bring me
joy and I did laugh quite heartily at it.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Well, I love hippopotamus, so even.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Though they're quite dangerous.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Samantha, I'm sure I also like many other things that
I would rather not hang out with you. It's fair
just saying so. It can manifest many ways, like writing
or journaling, meditating, yoga, hiking, listening to music, stretching and
crafting a long bath with some wine one of my favorites.
(12:04):
Taking time on social media, which I've yet to be
able to do, enjoy a nice cup of coffee, a
facial allowing yourself to say no or cancel plans, which
I'm a pro at happy hour with friends, which oh
my goodness, we've gotten vaccinated so we can do that again. Yay.
Steel safely, of course, and basically a way for you
(12:24):
to make space to relax, check in with yourself and recharge.
And as an introvert, I definitely have to do this
on a consistent basis, self care goes hand in hand
with mindfulness, of being aware when you're engaging in unhealthy
habits or behaviors and asking yourself what triggered that?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Right and quarantine has made self care more difficult in
a lot of ways, which sounds like that doesn't make sense.
But if you're thinking, but all I've been doing is
watching Netflix on my couch during the pandemic, isn't that
self care?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Why do I need self care? It does not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Count unless it's a mindful decision to take care of yourself.
It doesn't really qualify as self care. It might be
a coping mechanism. But if that's all you're doing, you're
buying and mind won't thank you for it. No blame,
no shame at all. There is an end in my
couch that was not there before this quarantine. Oh it's
(13:22):
just an oddspace to navigate our thoughts on self care
and productivity when you are confined inside.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
At least that's been my case.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
I've definitely given a lot of thought to mindfulness, and
I think I've gotten better at it. But by getting
better at it, I've learned I have a lot of
other issues that I need.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
To get better at.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I think this is the problem with reflecting too much
on yourself. You're like, well, let me check in. Oh crap.
There are so many things, especially for a person like
you who's on the go all the time. For me
talking about the Netflix thing, to not think about those things.
I consistently watch the same things over and over and
over again, so at least I can just drift off.
(14:09):
But it's all the time. And for me, the practice
of self care is actually meditating. I've talked about the
commat before, and I've talked about how much I enjoy it,
and I don't use it as often as I like,
meaning daily, But when I do, it is a self
awareness of knowing, Okay, I need to do this to
focus a little bit. That's not Netflix, you know, And
(14:29):
so I think, yeah, definitely, But having those moments is
very RESTful to me, to be able to sit and
not do anything and just hear nice water sounds.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
But yeah, Also those tubs are like, why can't I
do this all the time? What is going on?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And like you said earlier, Samantha, though self care is
often painted as selfish or indulgent, it's really important to
our health. Research shows practicing it promotes better health, longer life,
less stress, higher self esteem, and more productivity. Actually, not
practicing self care can have negative impacts on your mind
(15:08):
and body, leading to things like burnout, not just professionally
but personally, and we've seen a lot of conversation about
this recently in the activist space. It can also be
costly in terms of doctor's visits that might be necessary
if you're not looking after yourself, or even the loss
of work when it comes to burnout.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Right, and also with burnout, we could also talk about
the new term is fatigue, and we were talking a
lot about now because we're talking about COVID fatigue or
quarantine fatigue or any of those things and try to
go back out. It's a whole thing. So yeah, it's
definitely something that actually helps you care for yourself in
a way that seems selfish, but it's actually not. And
(15:47):
the thing about self care, it's not just about you,
but how you impact the other people in your life
and how you can serve your community and do your job.
As the importance of self care has been largely recognized
in many ways, it's been co opted, yes by beauty
companies and feminized. Of course it has. And if you
(16:08):
search for self care kits, you'll see and I will
say this because I actually try to find one for
a friend who is going through a really hard time,
and oh my goodness, you see a lot of small
related items and chocolate, and the entire time I'm like,
I don't know if she likes to do any of things,
like Michael likes to ride motorcycles and you know she
likes to go to target practice. There's no need for this,
(16:30):
don't get me wrong. If you love it, that's great too. Absolutely,
I love chocolate. Give me my chocolate. If you specifically
search for men's self care, it's almost always black and
red accented grilling stuff and or alcohol, which, by the way,
women like alcohol toos. But that's not always a solution
for self care and my illness. Just put that out there.
(16:55):
And grilling is great. Grilling is great. If you like that,
great spall stuff is great. Once again, love that. But clearly,
this is a space, like many others, that has been very,
very gendered, to even the point to say the words
like mental health day it seems weak, and so people
don't want to say it when it really does not
(17:15):
need to be in a lot of ways. The gendering
is unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Oh yeah, yeah, and more and more people are getting
in on self care. From twenty fifteen to twenty twenty,
Google trends indicate that searches for self care doubled. But yeah,
there is this unhealthy gender split, and we'll get into that,
but first we're gonna pause for quick break for a
word from our sponsor. And we're back, Thank you, sponsor,
(17:54):
and we're back with self care for men.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
When I see this, I keep one say, just for men.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Like the hair product, Yes, I mean that's a space
where the companies have tried to like masculinize right self cares, like, hey,
manly man, smelled good, so you can get cute lady
over there.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Right, look at this gray bottle is obviously for you,
the dark gray and only.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Clear with the red top almost always yeah old spice.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Really They have specifically brought in a woman to tell
her she can't use it because it's not for her
for their newer products, right why.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Because it smells too nice. So she's like, that's obviously
for me.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Right right, But he's saying, no, it's mine, don't touch it.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Mm hmm can do that, y's whatever product is available.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
So men are not as involved in the self care
space as women, and there are a couple of reasons why.
One reason is that there are more entry points into
self care for women, whether it is Friends of yours
or magazines or Instagram, it's general more accessible and acceptable
for women. Some of that is the beauty industry trying
(19:05):
to capitalize off women, no doubt, but it is more acceptable.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
In our very warped society.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Taking care of yourself is sometimes viewed as yes, a
weakness or selfish, and because we view women as the
quote weaker gender, it's more acceptable for them to do it.
And beauty was a space that was already dominated by
women in a lot of ways, so it was an
easier transition.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Not that all self care is beauty based.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Not at all, but a lot of it when we
see it advertised, a lot of it is. There's a
lot of dismissal of self care as being for snowflakes,
are vappish women, indulgent women, things like that.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Right, which is hilarious because when we look at the
job industry and we talk about the working from home,
how it's doubled women's workflowd and yet we want to
say this is weak makes me laugh again. This is
a big deal for a lot of reasons. We've talked
in previous episodes about the rates of mental health issues
and suicide for men. American men are three point five
(20:05):
times more likely to die by suicide than women, and
men are more likely to delay help if they seek
it at all, and they typically don't have as strong
of a support system as women. While self care obviously
is not going to make these things go away, it
can be an important part of someone's mental health. But again,
the Internet seems to indicate that self care for men
(20:28):
is generally not taken seriously or outright mocked as weakness.
And of course, again this is kind of that conversation
of self care has been kind of hijacked by the
beauty industry, and so therefore that type of level of spae,
massages and going to salons so feminized that men cannot
be associated with that.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, we know, even.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Though they should.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
If you want to do that stuff as a man,
it should be acceptable.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Massages are sashes are one.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I mean, they freak me out on one level, but
the end.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Is always endemic.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Has kind of care yes, yes, it's gonna take a while.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
And then we can talk about the hypersexualization of the
fact that massages are a double entendre right when it
comes to referencing for men. So that's a whole other conversation. Yeah,
that I hate just to put that out there. And
when self care does exist, it's often hyper masculinized, even
in proponents of it use a lot of words like
(21:28):
manly and masculine and all those stupid words.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, I read several of these articles that had a
lot of uses of manly and masculine, and this really
is I think it's easy to dismiss, but this really
is a huge part of what we're talking about when
we're talking about like toxic masculinity and mental health, and
it has it ripples out and touches all kinds of things.
But there was a part of me that was almost like,
(21:56):
I this feels like the weakness to me that someone
has to pander to you and be like, hey, manly man,
and you'll still be a manly man if you like
do this thing, and I'm not like I don't there's
not a weakness there of like recognizing you need to
take care of yourself. Right, and I get why these
(22:18):
articles are doing that, but it just feels very sad
that this is the point that we're at, right.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I mean, and then when we talk about self care,
a lot of it is done in isolation. Yeah, and then,
as we were saying previously about how oftentimes they don't
have support system. When we see people talking about self
care for men, whether it is having a step of scotch,
sitting by yourself in your lounge share looking out the window, like,
that's the idea of self care. And that's not always
(22:47):
the most healthy either, the whole like the private den,
the man cake, it's all very isolating, and to have
time with men is to be with the boys, but
that's not necessarily for self care. Once again, and so
it's kind of that question of why are we so
determined to isolate men as well as to look down
(23:08):
on women when they do need support, When everyone needs support.
We know this, we know this live, yes.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
And I do. I didn't want to put in here.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
America is not the only place, by any means where
this ideology exists, and because of the pervasive attitude, there
are frequently more crisis resources available to women. Right before
we recorded this I found a really fascinating and upsetting
article from Australia about a very similar thing of high
rates of suicide among men but not a lot of
resources dedicated to giving them help. So that's another issue,
(23:44):
like on a even a governmental level. And when you
think of in the past of men being breadwinners and
that idea of like the scott the mad Men, you know,
it's almost sexy that you are alone with your Scotch
in a dim lighting why your family is like you
(24:06):
just exactly so if you look at that idea when
being a man basically meant working all the time and
not really making time for your family, self care doesn't
fit into that.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
It's anathetical to that whole idea.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And we've talked about that on the show about particularly
here in the United States, the idea of a workaholic
and how it's in fact been painted.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
It's such a good thing when it is unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
And obviously times have changed from like the mad Men era,
but a lot of that toxic cultural stuff is still
baked in there. We haven't gotten rid of it. So
that's a part of this whole conversation. I did see
when I was researching this some sites calling for men
to prioritize self care, but.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
They did it.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
A lot of them did it by blaming women for
feminizing the space. Basically that because women and female influencers
that they got a lot of blame dominate in quote
self care, they've kept men out and that men need
to get in and take it over, which is wild
to me.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
A lot of they can't coexist, like no in any
way right, so it has to be us versus them,
and it literally becomes the whole man's playing situation of no, no, no, no,
let me show you how we're going to do it,
and this is how we're going to do it, and
it's our space. Don't touch it. Yeah, how Darius? And
maybe they can talk about that being with like video
(25:36):
gaming or any of that and being like it used
to be comfortable. Now women are doing it too, and
I'm like, what, I know, where is this divide that
it has to be one or the other? I don't understand.
Of course, we also have a lot of pushback with
the whole We're losing our masculinity, we're losing real men,
So we have to claim the space in a different
(25:58):
manner to take back what is out right which is
any attention. I guess.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I mean that whole perceived loss of power and and
we've talked about that before too, of the kind of
feminization of the Democratic Party in our country and the
masculinization of the Republican Party and the Republican Party very
much being like no snowflakes, while at the same time
being extremely sensitive, uh, cancel culture.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
That's a different thing I did.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
I was reminded of that Gillette commercial where they were like, dudes,
it's not cool to mistreat women, which you can argue
back and forth about when companies do that the benefits
in the town sides.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
But people were so upset about, like, how damn you
tell men we can't mistreat women?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Ridiculous anyway, that's I don't remember that commercial. Oh God,
remember this commercial.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
It came out I think.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
It's the twenty nineteen Super Bowl, and it was just
a you know, commercial about like it's not cool to
make these comments to women or a cat callar you know,
sexually assault someone not cool, and people freaked out about it.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
God damn, you say I can't assault someone.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
This is very like loose memory.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
So if people are like, actually it was about this
I just I just remember that what we're talking about
has tried to been tackled in age let commercial, and
so that's where we're at.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Well, yeah, speaking of commercials, obviously we see this in
beauty hygiene projects a lot. Usually a big yeah. It's
a big muscular dude selling this idea and that he
uses X y Z product and he is the doodliest
of dudes, usually in a humorous manner. Of course. I
think the yoga commercial comes to mind. I'm like, what,
(28:03):
And then the food. Everything has to be bigger portions
or bigger sizes for the hungry. Okay, cool, cool cool.
We talked about the old spice and I'm still trying
to figure out what's happening there. They're not letting that go,
and we know AX try to turn it a little bit.
I don't know if it's worked well for them. Has
it worked well?
Speaker 4 (28:23):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
I don't know what you're talking about, but knowing them,
I'm gonna say no. But that's a very acts.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Try to be all like, I'm a sensitive dude. This
is the smell I have. I think maybe I'm thinking
about this wrong. It's been a lot of time since
I've seen a lot of commercials. My favorite is want
there it is. That's my favorite. I like the dessert commercials.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I still bought to that. And then there are some
areas traditionally viewed as self care that men do tape
part in, especially when it comes to physical looks. Everybody
loves a good trim beard. We know this. However, this
is frequently more to me the standard and less about
taking care of themselves, you know, maybe being mocked constantly.
(29:11):
Like the whole level of metrosexual came out and everybody
was very either into it or not do into it.
So the lumberjack sexual came in as well, which is
kind of along those same lines. I just find that funny.
Do we have that for women?
Speaker 3 (29:26):
What metrosexual level?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
I don't think we do.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
It might be worth investigating whole episode on. Yeah, I
don't think we do. I think you are either. It's
like the flip of I guess being slightly more masculine.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I don't know, right.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I think that's the whole level of needing to identify
men as manly or not their sexuality, that we have
to know their sexuality, whether or not is benefits for
whatever reason. Whether so if he's introsexual, that means he's
heterosexual but has style right in that sense, So we
have to know, okay, okay, just because he has style
doesn't mean he's gay. We must classify this, which is
(30:10):
a whole level of homophobia in the yeah, that we
could talk about, which again kind of goes down to
this whole gender idea that we have to label it
and make sure we know that something is masculine in
order to prove manliness. Yep, and at the detriment and
the health of everyone.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, there's definitely a layer of homophobia involved in all
of this.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Despite all this native stuff, men's self care market it
is growing. According to Allied Market Research projects, it will
be worth one hundred and twenty two million dollars by
twenty twenty two. That's not necessarily a good thing, but
I guess it shows that at least companies they're making
movements in those areas capitalism, capitalism. Indeed, we didn't want
(30:57):
to talk about self care and women for a little
bit as well. But first we're going to pause for
one more quick break for a word from our sponsor,
and we're back.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Thank you sponsor.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
So a lot of people have written and spoken about
self care when it comes to women, us included, but
we did want to talk about it a little bit.
Over at Huffington Post, Lindsay Holmes wrote, self care shouldn't
be reduced to a fleeting activity or dispensable product. It
shouldn't even just be considered a wellness phenomenon for women.
(31:39):
It's a difficult but necessary act that helps us survive
in a world with work demands, family pressures, duties at home,
rampant incidents of sexual harassment, a relentless news cycle, financial worries,
and more. Inner reflection takes time and energy resources we're
already lacking.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Self care is hard work.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I wanted to include that quote because I think people
forget when we're thinking, oh, it's this selfish, indulgent woman.
It is hard work, and it's something that you have
to prioritize and take the time for, which in itself
can be difficult when you do have all of these
things that she listed in more. I think a lot
of people do view it as sort of a hippie
(32:19):
dippy wellness phenomenon, and absolutely companies have capitalized on that,
and some people do treat it that way, But at
its core, that's not what it is and that's not
what it should be. Right Religiously, it was a whole command.
It was a whole day.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Whether we're looking at traditional Jewish cultures and or just
Western Christian ideas that Sunday is Sabbath. You know, people
get very upset about this sometimes, and some people don't
take it seriously at all, however you want to say it.
My parents got upset when alcohol sales happen on Sunday
and they're like, what's the world's going to But it
was a religious thing and it's somehow changed for a
(32:57):
lot of the cultures. And not that you have to
do it. You have to set a date. It shouldn't
be a command by an overlord, essentially, for the lack
of better words, But it was there for a reason.
And yeah, and talking about the fact that most of
the times, for women, this is the first thing to
go out the window if you have to take something
off your list, this is it and we know this,
(33:18):
we know this, which again part of that is if
we're not doing something, then we're not doing it right,
and that has this level of guilt. It is this
idea that productivity is the morality of your life, point blank.
And a lot of us measure success by productivity, whether
it's how many hustles you got, how many things are doing?
(33:39):
What are you've gotten by a certain age, Like I
still have it in my head that I am not successful.
I am not adulting because I did not hit these
markers that you and I talked about so many times.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
The other day I think it was very fair somebody
called me an adult, which I am, but I was.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Like, oh, I mean just listing all the things that
I haven't done. Yeah, it's one of the first things
that I do, like, oh no, I haven't done this
and this and this and that does not and then
comparing myself to others who are fifteen years younger than me,
twenty years younger than me, thirty years younger than me
doing it better, and I'm like, what have I done
(34:20):
with my life? But I mean that's the kind of
thing is we define ourselves that way, which is detrimental,
yes in the end.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And I you know, back to good old capitalism. I
think there's a big part of it actually is that
idea of the workaholic and that that's somehow a good thing,
and that is what you measure success by. And then
on top of that this idea, especially in the United States,
that if you hustle hard enough, you will succeed no
(34:52):
matter what obstacles, systemic obstacles.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Are in your way.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
And in that way, you're blaming yourself, well whether you
know it or not, for issues that are really beyond
your control.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
And others blame others. They can't understand the systemic level
of why it can't be like this.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
So it's like.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Cautionary tales like early Bird Get the worms. All this
bs has really been ingrained into our heads that we're
not successful if we do not follow these things and
have all of our savings and all of these things
saved away so that we can enjoy the easy, relaxed life,
which is very quickly disappearing for a lot of our generations,
that whole level of social security, we know, that financial
(35:36):
stability that doesn't exist where we talk about no living wages.
Starting as a freshly graduated college student with some loans
under my belt because my parents could not it's not
one of those that had everything saved away from me,
so I had to pay everything as best as I
could and that included some loans, including the fact that
(35:56):
I had to live on campus, all of those to say,
and then going to a job that only paid me
twenty five thousand a year to live by myself, to
take care of myself for the first time ever. And
that doesn't include the fact that they took away money
for insurance. They take away money for all of these
benefits that I did not understand, you know, like all
of these things. And to the fact that we are
(36:18):
supposed to pretend like we know what we're doing. And
then realizing that my loans went from this to twenty
times that because of something that was out of my controls,
Like what the hell just happened? This became more than
my tuition for the four years, right, And to say, oh,
but you should have done it better, you should have
planned ahead. How do you tell a nineteen twenty two
(36:40):
year old to plan ahead?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, we that's a whole separate conversation,
but we really don't train people for that kind of stuff,
like young people, and then we're like surprised when they
don't know what to do, Like, okay, you're expecting this
eighteen year old to make the wise financial decisions.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Great, But that's the thing is that that means you
have failed because you are not to this level. But
you better not take care of yourself. Yeah, because you
will never get to that level.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And I think part of that too, which we're going
to talk about a little bit in a second, is
self esteem related. Like part of self care is you
have to say you're worth the self care, right, And
I think that's hard for a lot of people, and
I think especially marginalized folks. If you are living in
a country that has these systems in place, are just
(37:33):
social events that remind you that you're not valued as
much as say, straight white guy, it can be hard
to tell yourself like, no, I am and I deserve
to take this time. And just because I didn't understand
a very complicated financial system at the age of eighteen
doesn't mean that I don't deserve these things.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I still don't understand.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
And Yeah, Since domestic work is still taken on more
by women, and studies show women have less leisure time
men by about three times, it can be harder for
women to carve out this time to take care of themselves,
and perhaps doing so comes with increased guilts and there
is a difference, which I do want to say here,
between meeting basic needs and self care.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
So if you're saying.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Like, oh, I've carved out the time to get enough
sleep tonight, that's great, that's not really self care.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
It can be.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
But like if you're talking about a very that's just
your norm is you don't get enough sleep, that's not
really a self care.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
That's a basic need that you're not meeting.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
And around the world, women don't have access to health
care at the same rates as men, which does impact
self care.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
So that is another part of this conversation.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Right, and we know the pandemic alone has affected that immensely, immensely.
Even though again we've talked about the fact that you know,
we're at home, it's okay, we're we can do this constantly.
That's not true. We know this. We already talked about
again mentioning how the fact that majority of the household
work falls on women in general, as well as the
(39:04):
stress of being quarantined and stress of living in a
pandemic world causes a lot of that. And then when
you can't escape, so when your usual methods of escaping,
such as exercising with wherever you go to exercise and
or traveling, or even just being able to walk out
the door, that is highly affected as well. Again, we
(39:27):
talked about the fact that a lot of the money
that was slowly going towards women to help with care
has disappeared because other issues have come rise and we
know that when it comes down to it, it's secondary
for women to get the care that they need. Yes,
around the world, that's a whole different conversation. And recognizing
that you, again as any said, that you actually are
(39:50):
worth that, that you are worth the time to run
away from your family for two hours. Maybe I don't know. Yeah,
it's okay, I mean I think for me, and this
is very very general. We went to your beach house
and I have not been so excited. And it was
like six seven, eight months after quarantine began.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, because we were I think we went. It was
Dragon Gone weekend, Labor day.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
And it started in Mark and I hadn't left and
I was losing it. I was losing it. And just
being able to be in a car to drive somewhere
was such a phenomenon at that moment that the minute
we got in the car and we started driving and
like realizing we were on a trip, pulled something from
(40:40):
me that was it so like to me, like stuff
like that, being like, oh wow, being so scared, and
you and I talked about this. We are so scared,
especially as podcasters, as people who are sort of you know, seen.
I guess this is the best way to put it.
We're so scared of saying the wrong things, or doing
the wrong things, or being hypocritical and being really cautious
(41:00):
because of course we don't want to talk about that
was a privilege. Had I not known you, I would
have never been able to do that and felt like
a privilege. It was amazing and doing things like that
is a privilege. But that's the other part to that
is like I don't feel like I can because I
know other people are suffering, So why am I allowed
to do this? And that again that builds onto that
self worth and again being a basically the whole different level.
(41:23):
You should be able to have that, and it's absurd
that we don't. Being able to be on a living wage,
you should be able to have that, especially when you
work your ass off trying to provide for your people
that you love. End of story. But things like that
like the traveling that I got to do for the
first time in eight months was such a glorious moment
that felt like self care, but felt so guilty that
(41:43):
I was doing it.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, I've thought about that a lot lately because I
think a lot of women do this, a lot of
marginalized people do this. But I do that a lot
where I'm like, well, is it worth I don't have
it as bad as this person or whoever, so I'm
just being a big baby.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Or whatever it is like because I don't have it
as bad.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
And I think that is a part of what holds
people back when it comes to self care, is that
guilt around that whole idea. And when we're talking about
social media as part of this, it has been a
great space for normalizing self care. But if it becomes
competitive or performative, that's defeating the purpose, and a lot
(42:27):
of self care can get caught up in reinforcing tropes
around beauty and weights that. Going back to what I
was saying at the beginning about pinterest, to me, that's
what a lot of pinterest is is people kind of
showing off that there because they eat this, and they
exercise this much, these this is how they look in
these the clothes they can wear, and that can be healthy.
(42:49):
But if you turn it, it's so like a fine line.
And that's a problem I have a lot is I
turn it into something that is not self care anymore.
It is like a competiti And speaking of that, I
think there's a hijacking of self care to you in
this self help productivity workspace that's basically selling it as
a tool to do more work, which it does help productivity,
(43:10):
but it's not about that. It's not about doing more
work necessarily, and it's not some magical way to become
a CEO.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
If you're like good, if you really crush it when
it comes to self care, it's not that's not what one.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Look. I admire and respect the people who are on
here talking about their fitness and getting these workouts and
then having the whole why aren't you doing it? That
makes me want to throw my phone across the room.
Ye tell you that? Like I see that constantly, and
I want to be like because I'm depressed and my
anxiety is really high, and all I really want to
do is curl up in a fetal position under my
(43:55):
blanket while my dog sits on top of me until
I suffocate. I mean, that's some of the level that
I'm at. But the thing is, if it's for them,
that's great. But to turn it around and accuse people
of not being able to hit your mark is really damaging.
And when you do that as a way of getting
likes or getting promotions, what promotional benefits from other companies,
(44:18):
that's damaging. And what you're doing is causing more harm
than anything else. And I say you, I'm just saying
the general in all aspects, because let's be honest, this year,
it's been a year of collective trauma. I want to
talk about this later. It could be a whole other
episode about women in collective trauma, especially in the marginalized communities,
(44:40):
and we're going to talk a little more about the
intersections of this. But the level of trauma that has
happened this year, the fact that anyone got up, congratulations.
There's a debate about drinking water. It's absurd. If you're
doing it, wonderful. If you're not, you do you be healthy? Though?
Be healthy? And again, we have to recognize how self
(45:02):
care looks different for people of color and for the
LGBTQ community or any other marginalized groups. Let's be honest. Politically,
what we've been seeing is horrible, and I think we're
coming through the upswing, but the constant back and forth,
the constant back and forth, it's traumatizing. I maybe it's
(45:23):
because I've been so focused and been so isolated that
that's all I focus on. But these past few years
feel disgusting, whether it's I've lost friendships, I've lost family members,
I've lost trust in people, like there's so much that
we have to talk about, and we have talked about,
and we continue to talk about, and then we put
(45:43):
on people's shoulders to explain it's been a hard damn
year period and self care may just mean I'm not
going to talk to you today, i might not see
my family for a year. I'm okay. Things like that
have happened. And then the amount of death and the
(46:04):
amount of heartache that we've seen on a consistent basis,
and maybe it's just because we're seeing it for the
first time, also because our administration allowed millions of people
to die. All of those things way, So when we
talk about what's happening in the marginalized communities, when we
look at all of the politics that are happening even
(46:25):
today with the trans community, LGBTQ plus community. I just
saw a new law allowing for organizations to discriminate against
the LGBTQ plus community to allowing them to be part
of the group. I see consistently the bills that are
trying to block that community from adopting, which I have
a lot of feels on. We know this, We consistently
(46:48):
see the bills, the injustice that has happened on all
of the levels, MATS shootings, just this freaking week alone
has made me want to vomit. This last month has
been awful. So when we talk about self care, it
may just very well be I don't want to talk
to anyone in the story and that's okay. So to
(47:11):
try to place this whole line of buy this, do this,
be this is damaging in itself. I'm done.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
And when I was researching this, there are a lot
of resources out there for that are for specific marginalized groups.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
And what I was reading from people who.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Were writing about it, and they were talking about the
value of community support and camaraderie and finding those things.
So certainly, if you need those resources there out there
also much bigger conversation, but the whole mass shooting thing,
like some of that is what we're talking about here
with men can't get mental health care.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
Much bigger conversation.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
We also need to talk about accessive and cost here
because of course, when companies got involved, prices went up
for things items that have been in this self care space,
like like skincare, beauty. It can get really pricey, especially
when celebrities and influencers get involved, which more and more
male celebrities have been getting involved in this. I noticed
(48:21):
not an option for everyone and may turn people off
who otherwise would participate in self care. That's what they're seeing,
that's what they think it is. Again, beauty does not
a self care make this in a lot of things,
but for a lot of people that is I have
friends or that is their thing of like doing the
facial and just relaxing, or if we talk about physical
(48:41):
activities that aren't possible or comfortable for everyone for variety
of reasons. Just keeping those things in mind too of
accessibility and yeah, of course there are predatory products out
there marketed as self care that are like guaranteed to.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Get rid of your eyebags or whatever. It is. That's not.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
My friend calls them baggies.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
I bag these, I bag ease. I love it. Yeah.
And for those who have been able to be successful
and maybe publish a book or do some things we kindle, friendships, whatever,
that's phenomenal too, and you should be allowed to celebrate.
That's the other part again, is that guilt level. Don't
point out people and say you're not doing this like me.
(49:25):
Don't do that. Let's just say that, but celebrate what
you have been able to do. Celebrate the good things
in your life. I mean, I do celebrate the fact
that I am able to do this instead of being
in the world, which for my old co workers who
are continually seeing trauma on the outside and then continually
(49:45):
dealing with trauma in their workspace, that's a lot. Yeah,
and I'm very grateful that I am in this space
where I can process it in a different manner now.
But it's not lost on me that people are doing
these jobs and people are doing these things. People are
doing this work, and it's important that we allow for
them to celebrate the things that they have been able
(50:07):
to accomplish. I just remember one of my biggest things
being in that field just constantly thing I just need
one small victory, like crying about it and how big
of a deal it was, whether it's to know that
I helped a kid rehabilitate and get off of probation
in general, like I was able to be like, we're
going to work this out, We're going to do these
things together in the story or hooking them up and
(50:28):
able to get them an internship, to be able to
make money like stuff like that is phenomenal. We're not
going to talk about the incarceration system, which I have
a lot of guilt about in general. But the thing
is there's a collective amount of trauma that is happening,
and we need to be able to celebrate the things
that can be celebrated and for those who have you know,
(50:49):
children in their lives who were able to have babies
and are living in a place of health, and that
those who are seeing someone for the first time, that's
that's wonderful. Congratulations and we celeb write.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
That with you. Yeah, yeah, that's it. I'm glad you
said that, because I do.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
I think that is another aspect of this as people
feel like they can't share happy things right now. I
know I don't That's why I'm like not on a
social media hardly ever anymore. I don't want to post
some of that stuff, but I can't post it the
world is on fire.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
I like self deprecating stuff, like when I tripped and
trusted my ankle in a living room. But for those
who are asking, how, yeah, how do we even go
down this road? Or should we even go down this route?
So if you're listening to this and thinking I need
to start doing this, you don't have to. But if
you want to, or maybe like I need to do better,
(51:42):
how to go about that? Again, you're better stepping from
everybody else's just be healthy. So here are some tipsy.
Choose an activity or activities you enjoy or that relaxes you,
such as playing fiends and trying to beat your coworkers
like Lauren who has yet to reply to my banter.
If that makes you feel better, then do it.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (52:03):
So yeah, get some activities that you like that are healthy,
and then narrow it down to one at first that
you want to start putting into your daily routine.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
So here we're talking more about incorporating it more regularly
as opposed to that sort of one time event. Then yeah,
try implementing it every day for a week. After that
week's done, think about how you feel about it, repeat
with another activity, switch out activities, or just reflect on
how you want to go about it and if it
worked for you and why it did or didn't work
(52:34):
for you, and if.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
It didn't, it's okay, it is moving on.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
It is okay.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
And speaking of I did want to briefly talk about
this because I, like I said, I'm really bad at it.
And I was working on this outline the day after
I got my second dose of the vaccine and I
ended up getting having a pretty severe reaction, i will say.
Speaker 3 (52:56):
And I was.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
In bed and I was shaking so hard that the
bed frame was rattling, and I was sweating.
Speaker 3 (53:04):
It looked like I had gone swimming, and I.
Speaker 1 (53:06):
Was so cold, and I felt so bad, and I
was typing like women.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
Made to do better itself, not that, but essentially, like
how can women be better at self care?
Speaker 1 (53:17):
And then I was working away and Lauren, my coworker
and friend, she texted me and said stop working. And
then she sent an email out to like everybody I
was supposed to work with that day to record and
she said, we're not recording.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
She's good, and then you showed up. You were so
kind and you bought me fun. But I felt guilty
about it because I was.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
Like, oh, no, I I know you wouldn't let me
like I'm doing it. Damn it fine, I'm fine. This
is part of myself here. We've talked about this before,
like for people like me, I love doing things like that,
so I have to do it. So let me do it,
Let me do it.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
I kept being like no, no, no, And then I did
have the thing where I was like so proud of myself,
which is very unhealthy because I was like, wow, I.
Speaker 3 (54:07):
Feel terrible, but look at how much work I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah, and I did nothing. I did nothing. We purposely
didn't record. We changed the date, and I was like,
you know what, this is going to be a rough
one for I don't know, maybe it could be a
rough one. I've seen stories, and of course my reaction
because we ended up getting our shots at the same day,
they were very different, like I was nowhere year as
(54:30):
bad as you were. We had. I had this little
bit of chills and enough fever, but that was quickly gone.
But I was like, I'm just going to check in
on her, make sure she's alive. But we're not talking
about work. And I purposely did not ask about work.
And we did bring some noodles for you, because you know,
this is all about getting together. And that's the other
(54:52):
part to this is you have to recognize when your
body is telling you something. Yeah, because it's telling you
something for a reason. Yeah, And that was, hey, stop it,
go to bed, damn it.
Speaker 3 (55:06):
It's surprisingly difficult to do that.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
I feel like as women, we are especially I can
just speak. In my case, I have distanced myself so
much from my body that it's I can't basic things
like sleepy.
Speaker 3 (55:19):
And hunger, and I don't. I'm working on that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:24):
I on the other hand, I do recognize it, but
it's according to what I have to do. And if
there's just like I felt guilty because I have a
feeling you were working and so I didn't know what
else to do. But I'm like, yeah, but I'm sleepy
and i'm tired, and we can do this later. If
I do things, I don't want to just laid back out.
(55:47):
I was like, I'm done, I'm good. I will do that.
But there are days that I'm like I have to
do more. If it came down to helping someone else,
then yeah, I will do it. But if it comes
down to it's just me, I'm not gonna die.
Speaker 3 (56:08):
So you and I clearly have work to do as well.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Yes, listeners, I have better at it, and like the
fan FicT, writing fan fiction is something I do hiking
whenever we can go, when I can go back out
comfortably because I know I could have always, but I
was never comfortable. That is a big one for me.
So it is something that I have been mindful of
and have been trying to be better at.
Speaker 3 (56:31):
But yes, long ways ago.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
Still well, listeners, we would love to hear about your
self care.
Speaker 3 (56:37):
What do you do or are you any good at it?
Are you terrible at it?
Speaker 1 (56:41):
You can email us our emails Stuff Media mom Stuff
at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter
at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at Stuff I've
Never Told You. Thanks It's always to our super producer Christina.
Thank you Christina, and thanks to you for listening Stuff
I Never Told You. Propection I Heart Radio for more
podcasts from my Heart Radio, visits I Heartrado app Apple podcasts,
or I may listen to your favorite show speaking
Speaker 2 (57:07):
Yeah,
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steffone
never told you a production of Buyheart Radio. Okay, So
we are in well into the new year, which blows
my mind, and we've been talking a lot about the
(00:28):
good and the bad of resolutions, especially marketing around resolutions.
You recently had an episode where we even talked about
this briefly. But I want to bring back our episode
we did on the femininization of self care because this
is a very like at the beginning of the year,
self care is a big thing of it, and I
have gotten a series of headlines that are you know,
(00:50):
clearly directed towards women. But we've talked about this before,
but in our show Inbox, we get a lot of
cold emails. Some of the are very funny. Especially love
when they make the mistake in the name part. I
love that you live for that. I also love when
they kind of threaten you where they're like, you don't
(01:10):
respond within five days this offer is I'm like what.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah. I love when they don't know what we do
and just assume that by the title they know what
we do and they just make this random Yeah. Those
are my favorite.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yes, Yes, I do get a kick out of them
sometimes and for anyone who does those, I know, like,
we're not making fun of you, we just get some
that are very comical.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
It is. I used to do that actually for another
job I did. Yes, it's work. So yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
That one dude though, who was like, you really need
a note about how women are ruining the boat.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
They're ruining, women are ruining things for women.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yes, but I have been getting some that are kind
of self care for men and it's very comical to
me and how they phrase it where it's still in
that kind of like very stereotypical manly man.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Like take care of yourself, but look what doing it like,
I'm just.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So perplexed by this whole thing, so in that vein,
I wanted to bring back this classic episode, so please enjoy.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Hey, this is Annie.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And Samantha and OW come to Steff.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I've never told you protection of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
So for today's question, Samantha, I'm not sure you'll know
the answer, but do you remember when you became familiar
with the idea of self care?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You know, I honestly don't think it was until recently
that I learned of this. And when I say recently,
the idea and concept of self care was not something
in my Christian upbringing. Sure, so that was not something
especially as a woman who was supposed to be the
caretaker of the nurturer. That's not a thing. For my mother.
(03:04):
I definitely never saw that from her. She's constantly going.
She is still constantly going to this day and she
is sixty five. So for me, I don't think it
really came into play until I literally had a panic attack,
anxiety attack that shut me down for a week in
when I was working as a child abuse investigator and
(03:27):
I had a panic attack in the middle of Longhorns. Yes,
I did, to the point that my friends were like,
are you okay?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Are you okay?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Like coworkers and they're like, don't look at her, don't
look at her, because then you made it worse, right,
And so it wasn't until then, so out of college
in my first job, that I truly figured out, oh,
I'm trying to kill myself through doing too much and
not taking care of myself because I'm putting the responsibility
of the world on me. So I feel like it
(03:56):
really wasn't until about two thousand and six, so pretty
mch a long time that I understood the concept without
knowing the term, right, and that included a lot of
hiking and exercising, and that was my form of self care.
And don't get me wrong, I'd already started therapy, but
that was trauma related. So self care is really different
from delving into trauma. Yeah, as we all know, as.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
We all know.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
People who listen to this show. Certainly, I actually don't
think I knew about self care because I feel like,
you know, you know about it in terms of taking
care of yourself, but the term and the idea of
like prioritizing it and that it's important, I don't think
I knew until twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, we've talked about it.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Before on the show in several different instances.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
I am really bad at it. I think a lot
of women are.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So even when I was like, Okay, I'm going to
do this self care thing, my attitude around it was
the opposite of what it needed to be. It was
like another check box, right, that made it at another
stressor and oh I have to do this thing. Yeah,
so we are going to talk about that, but I
it's still something I struggle with.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Right, I mean, I think for me, Yeah, the term
was not self care. It was mental health day, which
I know we talk about in my industry where I
came from, with especially with like government jobs or service jobs.
We talk about mental health days and trying to get them.
And it's so frowned upon in that industry. Like they
tell you to do it, they tell you to do
it right, they tell you to shut off your phone,
(05:35):
they tell you that, you know, you take you a
week of vacation, and a few people have, and I
love and admire that, And I think few people have
because they had to and it like they had families
or whatever whatnot, and it caused a lot of problems
in marriages or problems with their children because a lot
of people would put their job first. But we were
told to take our mental health day, but made sure
to be told, don't say it's a mental health day,
(05:57):
tell them you're sick. It's just kind of that level.
So for the longest time, and I know think people
think it that way still, that term is really really
it's definitely become a little more of a fad. The
term not necessarily a practice, so to me, is kind
of a newer idea and it does feel really selfish. Yeah,
to say you need that.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yes, So we're going to talk about that that feeling,
and today we're also going to talk a lot about
how self care has been feminized, how seen as sort
of this purview of women, and it's been in the news.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
A lot lately for a variety of reasons.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
But I did want to bring this up that Pinterest
recently announced guidelines to I guess, foster a healthier environment
on their platform, to be kinder and to be more
positive in general, which I find interesting because Pinterest.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
To me, there's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Great things that can happen on Pinterest, but I see
the negative of almost that like wishful. You know, your
pin board if I want to be what is that
called inspiration and you want to be this thin and
I'm gonna do this and this and this out like
that perfect life that you build, Okay, unhealthy.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I'm not really into Pinterest, so but I'm definitely
seeing the boards and that sounds horrifying because also people
can look at this.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right they can, but you can put it on private.
I think all of mine are on private, except for
my random nineties board.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I was going to a nineties theme party. Now shut
with costume, of course, but all my liked what you'll
find out soon enough, you.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Know what that makes me paining. Let's not take it.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So back to this Pinterest thing is they have this
creator code that says I agree to be kind, check
my facts, be aware of triggers, practice inclusion, and do
no harm, which I'm curious how they will reinforce those.
(08:05):
But we're seeing more social media platforms try to do
these things, which is something else we've.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Talked about a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
And I remember when I first came on as a
host of this show, some people would write in and
say why they didn't like trigger warnings, why they thought
they were like useless and actually harmful, and I would
argue back, like my side of it. And I feel
like it's shifting towards people being more aware of why
(08:34):
you need to think about those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Right, I mean, honestly, that's kind of why we how
that conversation about Trauma Series began, everybody was so leaning
to oh my god, everybody's so PC, they're so sensitive,
blah blah blah. No, but this is why we need
these things, because it has for our entire lives. We
didn't have this, and I really wish we did. Yeah,
(09:00):
this is okay to have those warnings, but why it
was important and why we need to respect them. But yeah,
that's interesting to see because we have kind of gone
all back and forth and back and forth of is
this a problem or is this a solution or is
this adding on to the problems, And it's kind of
I'm really glad to see that it's sticking and it's
(09:20):
becoming a thing, aren't you.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, And I remember in particular, one person was a
professor and they wrote in and they were like, I
just feel that giving trigger warnings it means that topics
that need to be talked about won't be talked about.
And I was like, I hear you, but I think
it doesn't mean I won't show up to whatever lesson.
It just means I'll show up knowing I need to
be prepared for this. And I, obviously you and I
(09:46):
don't think that doesn't mean don't talk about something. It's
just giving people that like warning if they need it
to take care of themselves. And speaking of let's do
a brief definition like we like to do what it
is self care.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
According to the World Health organization. It is quote.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Self care is what people do for themselves to establish
and maintain health and to prevent and deal with illness.
It is a broad concept, encompassing hygiene, general and personal nutrition,
type in quality of food eaten, lifestyle, sporting activities, leisure,
et cetera, environmental factors, living conditions, social habits, et cetera,
socio and economic factors, income level, cultural beliefs, et cetera,
(10:26):
and self medication. This can include things like yes, nutrition, hygiene,
or seeking medical care. It is often described as something
that brings you joy. And this definition is pretty old.
I think it's from nineteen ninety eight actually, and it's
been updated and various outlets like the World Health Organization.
(10:46):
To me, this makes sense, but I think of self
care as a much more like find something, yeah, that
brings you joy and do that thing, right.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
But I do think that large.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Definition that makes sense as well.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Some have put self care into categories like emotional self care,
taking dedicated breaks, physical self care, getting enough sleep, eating well,
and spiritual self care, which can include spending time in nature.
Some break it down even further into temporary versus enduring,
so like a one time self care thing or something
(11:20):
that is an ongoing self care thing. And also I
really recommend looking up.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Actually it's not. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
I thought it was funny, but the World Health Organization
has a self care hippopotamus diagram, which did bring me
joy and I did laugh quite heartily at it.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Well, I love hippopotamus, so even.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Though they're quite dangerous.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Samantha, I'm sure I also like many other things that
I would rather not hang out with you. It's fair
just saying so. It can manifest many ways, like writing
or journaling, meditating, yoga, hiking, listening to music, stretching and
crafting a long bath with some wine one of my favorites.
(12:04):
Taking time on social media, which I've yet to be
able to do, enjoy a nice cup of coffee, a
facial allowing yourself to say no or cancel plans, which
I'm a pro at happy hour with friends, which oh
my goodness, we've gotten vaccinated so we can do that again. Yay.
Steel safely, of course, and basically a way for you
(12:24):
to make space to relax, check in with yourself and recharge.
And as an introvert, I definitely have to do this
on a consistent basis, self care goes hand in hand
with mindfulness, of being aware when you're engaging in unhealthy
habits or behaviors and asking yourself what triggered that?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Right and quarantine has made self care more difficult in
a lot of ways, which sounds like that doesn't make sense.
But if you're thinking, but all I've been doing is
watching Netflix on my couch during the pandemic, isn't that
self care?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Why do I need self care? It does not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Count unless it's a mindful decision to take care of yourself.
It doesn't really qualify as self care. It might be
a coping mechanism. But if that's all you're doing, you're
buying and mind won't thank you for it. No blame,
no shame at all. There is an end in my
couch that was not there before this quarantine. Oh it's
(13:22):
just an oddspace to navigate our thoughts on self care
and productivity when you are confined inside.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
At least that's been my case.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
I've definitely given a lot of thought to mindfulness, and
I think I've gotten better at it. But by getting
better at it, I've learned I have a lot of
other issues that I need.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
To get better at.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I think this is the problem with reflecting too much
on yourself. You're like, well, let me check in. Oh crap.
There are so many things, especially for a person like
you who's on the go all the time. For me
talking about the Netflix thing, to not think about those things.
I consistently watch the same things over and over and
over again, so at least I can just drift off.
(14:09):
But it's all the time. And for me, the practice
of self care is actually meditating. I've talked about the
commat before, and I've talked about how much I enjoy it,
and I don't use it as often as I like,
meaning daily, But when I do, it is a self
awareness of knowing, Okay, I need to do this to
focus a little bit. That's not Netflix, you know, And
(14:29):
so I think, yeah, definitely, But having those moments is
very RESTful to me, to be able to sit and
not do anything and just hear nice water sounds.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
But yeah, Also those tubs are like, why can't I
do this all the time? What is going on?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And like you said earlier, Samantha, though self care is
often painted as selfish or indulgent, it's really important to
our health. Research shows practicing it promotes better health, longer life,
less stress, higher self esteem, and more productivity. Actually, not
practicing self care can have negative impacts on your mind
(15:08):
and body, leading to things like burnout, not just professionally
but personally, and we've seen a lot of conversation about
this recently in the activist space. It can also be
costly in terms of doctor's visits that might be necessary
if you're not looking after yourself, or even the loss
of work when it comes to burnout.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Right, and also with burnout, we could also talk about
the new term is fatigue, and we were talking a
lot about now because we're talking about COVID fatigue or
quarantine fatigue or any of those things and try to
go back out. It's a whole thing. So yeah, it's
definitely something that actually helps you care for yourself in
a way that seems selfish, but it's actually not. And
(15:47):
the thing about self care, it's not just about you,
but how you impact the other people in your life
and how you can serve your community and do your job.
As the importance of self care has been largely recognized
in many ways, it's been co opted, yes by beauty
companies and feminized. Of course it has. And if you
(16:08):
search for self care kits, you'll see and I will
say this because I actually try to find one for
a friend who is going through a really hard time,
and oh my goodness, you see a lot of small
related items and chocolate, and the entire time I'm like,
I don't know if she likes to do any of things,
like Michael likes to ride motorcycles and you know she
likes to go to target practice. There's no need for this,
(16:30):
don't get me wrong. If you love it, that's great too. Absolutely,
I love chocolate. Give me my chocolate. If you specifically
search for men's self care, it's almost always black and
red accented grilling stuff and or alcohol, which, by the way,
women like alcohol toos. But that's not always a solution
for self care and my illness. Just put that out there.
(16:55):
And grilling is great. Grilling is great. If you like that,
great spall stuff is great. Once again, love that. But clearly,
this is a space, like many others, that has been very,
very gendered, to even the point to say the words
like mental health day it seems weak, and so people
don't want to say it when it really does not
(17:15):
need to be in a lot of ways. The gendering
is unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Oh yeah, yeah, and more and more people are getting
in on self care. From twenty fifteen to twenty twenty,
Google trends indicate that searches for self care doubled. But yeah,
there is this unhealthy gender split, and we'll get into that,
but first we're gonna pause for quick break for a
word from our sponsor. And we're back, Thank you, sponsor,
(17:54):
and we're back with self care for men.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
When I see this, I keep one say, just for men.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Like the hair product, Yes, I mean that's a space
where the companies have tried to like masculinize right self cares, like, hey,
manly man, smelled good, so you can get cute lady
over there.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Right, look at this gray bottle is obviously for you,
the dark gray and only.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Clear with the red top almost always yeah old spice.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Really They have specifically brought in a woman to tell
her she can't use it because it's not for her
for their newer products, right why.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Because it smells too nice. So she's like, that's obviously
for me.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Right right, But he's saying, no, it's mine, don't touch it.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Mm hmm can do that, y's whatever product is available.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
So men are not as involved in the self care
space as women, and there are a couple of reasons why.
One reason is that there are more entry points into
self care for women, whether it is Friends of yours
or magazines or Instagram, it's general more accessible and acceptable
for women. Some of that is the beauty industry trying
(19:05):
to capitalize off women, no doubt, but it is more acceptable.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
In our very warped society.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Taking care of yourself is sometimes viewed as yes, a
weakness or selfish, and because we view women as the
quote weaker gender, it's more acceptable for them to do it.
And beauty was a space that was already dominated by
women in a lot of ways, so it was an
easier transition.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Not that all self care is beauty based.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Not at all, but a lot of it when we
see it advertised, a lot of it is. There's a
lot of dismissal of self care as being for snowflakes,
are vappish women, indulgent women, things like that.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Right, which is hilarious because when we look at the
job industry and we talk about the working from home,
how it's doubled women's workflowd and yet we want to
say this is weak makes me laugh again. This is
a big deal for a lot of reasons. We've talked
in previous episodes about the rates of mental health issues
and suicide for men. American men are three point five
(20:05):
times more likely to die by suicide than women, and
men are more likely to delay help if they seek
it at all, and they typically don't have as strong
of a support system as women. While self care obviously
is not going to make these things go away, it
can be an important part of someone's mental health. But again,
the Internet seems to indicate that self care for men
(20:28):
is generally not taken seriously or outright mocked as weakness.
And of course, again this is kind of that conversation
of self care has been kind of hijacked by the
beauty industry, and so therefore that type of level of spae,
massages and going to salons so feminized that men cannot
be associated with that.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, we know, even.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Though they should.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
If you want to do that stuff as a man,
it should be acceptable.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Massages are sashes are one.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I mean, they freak me out on one level, but
the end.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Is always endemic.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Has kind of care yes, yes, it's gonna take a while.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
And then we can talk about the hypersexualization of the
fact that massages are a double entendre right when it
comes to referencing for men. So that's a whole other conversation. Yeah,
that I hate just to put that out there. And
when self care does exist, it's often hyper masculinized, even
in proponents of it use a lot of words like
(21:28):
manly and masculine and all those stupid words.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, I read several of these articles that had a
lot of uses of manly and masculine, and this really
is I think it's easy to dismiss, but this really
is a huge part of what we're talking about when
we're talking about like toxic masculinity and mental health, and
it has it ripples out and touches all kinds of things.
But there was a part of me that was almost like,
(21:56):
I this feels like the weakness to me that someone
has to pander to you and be like, hey, manly man,
and you'll still be a manly man if you like
do this thing, and I'm not like I don't there's
not a weakness there of like recognizing you need to
take care of yourself. Right, and I get why these
(22:18):
articles are doing that, but it just feels very sad
that this is the point that we're at, right.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I mean, and then when we talk about self care,
a lot of it is done in isolation. Yeah, and then,
as we were saying previously about how oftentimes they don't
have support system. When we see people talking about self
care for men, whether it is having a step of scotch,
sitting by yourself in your lounge share looking out the window, like,
that's the idea of self care. And that's not always
(22:47):
the most healthy either, the whole like the private den,
the man cake, it's all very isolating, and to have
time with men is to be with the boys, but
that's not necessarily for self care. Once again, and so
it's kind of that question of why are we so
determined to isolate men as well as to look down
(23:08):
on women when they do need support, When everyone needs support.
We know this, we know this live, yes.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
And I do. I didn't want to put in here.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
America is not the only place, by any means where
this ideology exists, and because of the pervasive attitude, there
are frequently more crisis resources available to women. Right before
we recorded this I found a really fascinating and upsetting
article from Australia about a very similar thing of high
rates of suicide among men but not a lot of
resources dedicated to giving them help. So that's another issue,
(23:44):
like on a even a governmental level. And when you
think of in the past of men being breadwinners and
that idea of like the scott the mad Men, you know,
it's almost sexy that you are alone with your Scotch
in a dim lighting why your family is like you
(24:06):
just exactly so if you look at that idea when
being a man basically meant working all the time and
not really making time for your family, self care doesn't
fit into that.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
It's anathetical to that whole idea.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And we've talked about that on the show about particularly
here in the United States, the idea of a workaholic
and how it's in fact been painted.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
It's such a good thing when it is unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
And obviously times have changed from like the mad Men era,
but a lot of that toxic cultural stuff is still
baked in there. We haven't gotten rid of it. So
that's a part of this whole conversation. I did see
when I was researching this some sites calling for men
to prioritize self care, but.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
They did it.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
A lot of them did it by blaming women for
feminizing the space. Basically that because women and female influencers
that they got a lot of blame dominate in quote
self care, they've kept men out and that men need
to get in and take it over, which is wild
to me.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
A lot of they can't coexist, like no in any
way right, so it has to be us versus them,
and it literally becomes the whole man's playing situation of no, no, no, no,
let me show you how we're going to do it,
and this is how we're going to do it, and
it's our space. Don't touch it. Yeah, how Darius? And
maybe they can talk about that being with like video
(25:36):
gaming or any of that and being like it used
to be comfortable. Now women are doing it too, and
I'm like, what, I know, where is this divide that
it has to be one or the other? I don't understand.
Of course, we also have a lot of pushback with
the whole We're losing our masculinity, we're losing real men,
So we have to claim the space in a different
(25:58):
manner to take back what is out right which is
any attention. I guess.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I mean that whole perceived loss of power and and
we've talked about that before too, of the kind of
feminization of the Democratic Party in our country and the
masculinization of the Republican Party and the Republican Party very
much being like no snowflakes, while at the same time
being extremely sensitive, uh, cancel culture.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
That's a different thing I did.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
I was reminded of that Gillette commercial where they were like, dudes,
it's not cool to mistreat women, which you can argue
back and forth about when companies do that the benefits
in the town sides.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
But people were so upset about, like, how damn you
tell men we can't mistreat women?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Ridiculous anyway, that's I don't remember that commercial. Oh God,
remember this commercial.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
It came out I think.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
It's the twenty nineteen Super Bowl, and it was just
a you know, commercial about like it's not cool to
make these comments to women or a cat callar you know,
sexually assault someone not cool, and people freaked out about it.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
God damn, you say I can't assault someone.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
This is very like loose memory.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
So if people are like, actually it was about this
I just I just remember that what we're talking about
has tried to been tackled in age let commercial, and
so that's where we're at.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Well, yeah, speaking of commercials, obviously we see this in
beauty hygiene projects a lot. Usually a big yeah. It's
a big muscular dude selling this idea and that he
uses X y Z product and he is the doodliest
of dudes, usually in a humorous manner. Of course. I
think the yoga commercial comes to mind. I'm like, what,
(28:03):
And then the food. Everything has to be bigger portions
or bigger sizes for the hungry. Okay, cool, cool cool.
We talked about the old spice and I'm still trying
to figure out what's happening there. They're not letting that go,
and we know AX try to turn it a little bit.
I don't know if it's worked well for them. Has
it worked well?
Speaker 4 (28:23):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
I don't know what you're talking about, but knowing them,
I'm gonna say no. But that's a very acts.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Try to be all like, I'm a sensitive dude. This
is the smell I have. I think maybe I'm thinking
about this wrong. It's been a lot of time since
I've seen a lot of commercials. My favorite is want
there it is. That's my favorite. I like the dessert commercials.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I still bought to that. And then there are some
areas traditionally viewed as self care that men do tape
part in, especially when it comes to physical looks. Everybody
loves a good trim beard. We know this. However, this
is frequently more to me the standard and less about
taking care of themselves, you know, maybe being mocked constantly.
(29:11):
Like the whole level of metrosexual came out and everybody
was very either into it or not do into it.
So the lumberjack sexual came in as well, which is
kind of along those same lines. I just find that funny.
Do we have that for women?
Speaker 3 (29:26):
What metrosexual level?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
I don't think we do.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
It might be worth investigating whole episode on. Yeah, I
don't think we do. I think you are either. It's
like the flip of I guess being slightly more masculine.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I don't know, right.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I think that's the whole level of needing to identify
men as manly or not their sexuality, that we have
to know their sexuality, whether or not is benefits for
whatever reason. Whether so if he's introsexual, that means he's
heterosexual but has style right in that sense, So we
have to know, okay, okay, just because he has style
doesn't mean he's gay. We must classify this, which is
(30:10):
a whole level of homophobia in the yeah, that we
could talk about, which again kind of goes down to
this whole gender idea that we have to label it
and make sure we know that something is masculine in
order to prove manliness. Yep, and at the detriment and
the health of everyone.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, there's definitely a layer of homophobia involved in all
of this.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Despite all this native stuff, men's self care market it
is growing. According to Allied Market Research projects, it will
be worth one hundred and twenty two million dollars by
twenty twenty two. That's not necessarily a good thing, but
I guess it shows that at least companies they're making
movements in those areas capitalism, capitalism. Indeed, we didn't want
(30:57):
to talk about self care and women for a little
bit as well. But first we're going to pause for
one more quick break for a word from our sponsor,
and we're back.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Thank you sponsor.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
So a lot of people have written and spoken about
self care when it comes to women, us included, but
we did want to talk about it a little bit.
Over at Huffington Post, Lindsay Holmes wrote, self care shouldn't
be reduced to a fleeting activity or dispensable product. It
shouldn't even just be considered a wellness phenomenon for women.
(31:39):
It's a difficult but necessary act that helps us survive
in a world with work demands, family pressures, duties at home,
rampant incidents of sexual harassment, a relentless news cycle, financial worries,
and more. Inner reflection takes time and energy resources we're
already lacking.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Self care is hard work.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I wanted to include that quote because I think people
forget when we're thinking, oh, it's this selfish, indulgent woman.
It is hard work, and it's something that you have
to prioritize and take the time for, which in itself
can be difficult when you do have all of these
things that she listed in more. I think a lot
of people do view it as sort of a hippie
(32:19):
dippy wellness phenomenon, and absolutely companies have capitalized on that,
and some people do treat it that way, But at
its core, that's not what it is and that's not
what it should be. Right Religiously, it was a whole command.
It was a whole day.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Whether we're looking at traditional Jewish cultures and or just
Western Christian ideas that Sunday is Sabbath. You know, people
get very upset about this sometimes, and some people don't
take it seriously at all, however you want to say it.
My parents got upset when alcohol sales happen on Sunday
and they're like, what's the world's going to But it
was a religious thing and it's somehow changed for a
(32:57):
lot of the cultures. And not that you have to
do it. You have to set a date. It shouldn't
be a command by an overlord, essentially, for the lack
of better words, But it was there for a reason.
And yeah, and talking about the fact that most of
the times, for women, this is the first thing to
go out the window if you have to take something
off your list, this is it and we know this,
(33:18):
we know this, which again part of that is if
we're not doing something, then we're not doing it right,
and that has this level of guilt. It is this
idea that productivity is the morality of your life, point blank.
And a lot of us measure success by productivity, whether
it's how many hustles you got, how many things are doing?
(33:39):
What are you've gotten by a certain age, Like I
still have it in my head that I am not successful.
I am not adulting because I did not hit these
markers that you and I talked about so many times.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
The other day I think it was very fair somebody
called me an adult, which I am, but I was.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Like, oh, I mean just listing all the things that
I haven't done. Yeah, it's one of the first things
that I do, like, oh no, I haven't done this
and this and this and that does not and then
comparing myself to others who are fifteen years younger than me,
twenty years younger than me, thirty years younger than me
doing it better, and I'm like, what have I done
(34:20):
with my life? But I mean that's the kind of
thing is we define ourselves that way, which is detrimental,
yes in the end.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And I you know, back to good old capitalism. I
think there's a big part of it actually is that
idea of the workaholic and that that's somehow a good thing,
and that is what you measure success by. And then
on top of that this idea, especially in the United States,
that if you hustle hard enough, you will succeed no
(34:52):
matter what obstacles, systemic obstacles.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Are in your way.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
And in that way, you're blaming yourself, well whether you
know it or not, for issues that are really beyond
your control.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
And others blame others. They can't understand the systemic level
of why it can't be like this.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
So it's like.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Cautionary tales like early Bird Get the worms. All this
bs has really been ingrained into our heads that we're
not successful if we do not follow these things and
have all of our savings and all of these things
saved away so that we can enjoy the easy, relaxed life,
which is very quickly disappearing for a lot of our generations,
that whole level of social security, we know, that financial
(35:36):
stability that doesn't exist where we talk about no living wages.
Starting as a freshly graduated college student with some loans
under my belt because my parents could not it's not
one of those that had everything saved away from me,
so I had to pay everything as best as I
could and that included some loans, including the fact that
(35:56):
I had to live on campus, all of those to say,
and then going to a job that only paid me
twenty five thousand a year to live by myself, to
take care of myself for the first time ever. And
that doesn't include the fact that they took away money
for insurance. They take away money for all of these
benefits that I did not understand, you know, like all
of these things. And to the fact that we are
(36:18):
supposed to pretend like we know what we're doing. And
then realizing that my loans went from this to twenty
times that because of something that was out of my controls,
Like what the hell just happened? This became more than
my tuition for the four years, right, And to say, oh,
but you should have done it better, you should have
planned ahead. How do you tell a nineteen twenty two
(36:40):
year old to plan ahead?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, we that's a whole separate conversation,
but we really don't train people for that kind of stuff,
like young people, and then we're like surprised when they
don't know what to do, Like, okay, you're expecting this
eighteen year old to make the wise financial decisions.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Great, But that's the thing is that that means you
have failed because you are not to this level. But
you better not take care of yourself. Yeah, because you
will never get to that level.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And I think part of that too, which we're going
to talk about a little bit in a second, is
self esteem related. Like part of self care is you
have to say you're worth the self care, right, And
I think that's hard for a lot of people, and
I think especially marginalized folks. If you are living in
a country that has these systems in place, are just
(37:33):
social events that remind you that you're not valued as
much as say, straight white guy, it can be hard
to tell yourself like, no, I am and I deserve
to take this time. And just because I didn't understand
a very complicated financial system at the age of eighteen
doesn't mean that I don't deserve these things.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I still don't understand.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
And Yeah, Since domestic work is still taken on more
by women, and studies show women have less leisure time
men by about three times, it can be harder for
women to carve out this time to take care of themselves,
and perhaps doing so comes with increased guilts and there
is a difference, which I do want to say here,
between meeting basic needs and self care.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
So if you're saying.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Like, oh, I've carved out the time to get enough
sleep tonight, that's great, that's not really self care.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
It can be.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
But like if you're talking about a very that's just
your norm is you don't get enough sleep, that's not
really a self care.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
That's a basic need that you're not meeting.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
And around the world, women don't have access to health
care at the same rates as men, which does impact
self care.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
So that is another part of this conversation.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Right, and we know the pandemic alone has affected that immensely, immensely.
Even though again we've talked about the fact that you know,
we're at home, it's okay, we're we can do this constantly.
That's not true. We know this. We already talked about
again mentioning how the fact that majority of the household
work falls on women in general, as well as the
(39:04):
stress of being quarantined and stress of living in a
pandemic world causes a lot of that. And then when
you can't escape, so when your usual methods of escaping,
such as exercising with wherever you go to exercise and
or traveling, or even just being able to walk out
the door, that is highly affected as well. Again, we
(39:27):
talked about the fact that a lot of the money
that was slowly going towards women to help with care
has disappeared because other issues have come rise and we
know that when it comes down to it, it's secondary
for women to get the care that they need. Yes,
around the world, that's a whole different conversation. And recognizing
that you, again as any said, that you actually are
(39:50):
worth that, that you are worth the time to run
away from your family for two hours. Maybe I don't know. Yeah,
it's okay, I mean I think for me, and this
is very very general. We went to your beach house
and I have not been so excited. And it was
like six seven, eight months after quarantine began.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, because we were I think we went. It was
Dragon Gone weekend, Labor day.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
And it started in Mark and I hadn't left and
I was losing it. I was losing it. And just
being able to be in a car to drive somewhere
was such a phenomenon at that moment that the minute
we got in the car and we started driving and
like realizing we were on a trip, pulled something from
(40:40):
me that was it so like to me, like stuff
like that, being like, oh wow, being so scared, and
you and I talked about this. We are so scared,
especially as podcasters, as people who are sort of you know, seen.
I guess this is the best way to put it.
We're so scared of saying the wrong things, or doing
the wrong things, or being hypocritical and being really cautious
(41:00):
because of course we don't want to talk about that
was a privilege. Had I not known you, I would
have never been able to do that and felt like
a privilege. It was amazing and doing things like that
is a privilege. But that's the other part to that
is like I don't feel like I can because I
know other people are suffering, So why am I allowed
to do this? And that again that builds onto that
self worth and again being a basically the whole different level.
(41:23):
You should be able to have that, and it's absurd
that we don't. Being able to be on a living wage,
you should be able to have that, especially when you
work your ass off trying to provide for your people
that you love. End of story. But things like that
like the traveling that I got to do for the
first time in eight months was such a glorious moment
that felt like self care, but felt so guilty that
(41:43):
I was doing it.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, I've thought about that a lot lately because I
think a lot of women do this, a lot of
marginalized people do this. But I do that a lot
where I'm like, well, is it worth I don't have
it as bad as this person or whoever, so I'm
just being a big baby.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Or whatever it is like because I don't have it
as bad.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
And I think that is a part of what holds
people back when it comes to self care, is that
guilt around that whole idea. And when we're talking about
social media as part of this, it has been a
great space for normalizing self care. But if it becomes
competitive or performative, that's defeating the purpose, and a lot
(42:27):
of self care can get caught up in reinforcing tropes
around beauty and weights that. Going back to what I
was saying at the beginning about pinterest, to me, that's
what a lot of pinterest is is people kind of
showing off that there because they eat this, and they
exercise this much, these this is how they look in
these the clothes they can wear, and that can be healthy.
(42:49):
But if you turn it, it's so like a fine line.
And that's a problem I have a lot is I
turn it into something that is not self care anymore.
It is like a competiti And speaking of that, I
think there's a hijacking of self care to you in
this self help productivity workspace that's basically selling it as
a tool to do more work, which it does help productivity,
(43:10):
but it's not about that. It's not about doing more
work necessarily, and it's not some magical way to become
a CEO.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
If you're like good, if you really crush it when
it comes to self care, it's not that's not what one.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Look. I admire and respect the people who are on
here talking about their fitness and getting these workouts and
then having the whole why aren't you doing it? That
makes me want to throw my phone across the room.
Ye tell you that? Like I see that constantly, and
I want to be like because I'm depressed and my
anxiety is really high, and all I really want to
do is curl up in a fetal position under my
(43:55):
blanket while my dog sits on top of me until
I suffocate. I mean, that's some of the level that
I'm at. But the thing is, if it's for them,
that's great. But to turn it around and accuse people
of not being able to hit your mark is really damaging.
And when you do that as a way of getting
likes or getting promotions, what promotional benefits from other companies,
(44:18):
that's damaging. And what you're doing is causing more harm
than anything else. And I say you, I'm just saying
the general in all aspects, because let's be honest, this year,
it's been a year of collective trauma. I want to
talk about this later. It could be a whole other
episode about women in collective trauma, especially in the marginalized communities,
(44:40):
and we're going to talk a little more about the
intersections of this. But the level of trauma that has
happened this year, the fact that anyone got up, congratulations.
There's a debate about drinking water. It's absurd. If you're
doing it, wonderful. If you're not, you do you be healthy? Though?
Be healthy? And again, we have to recognize how self
(45:02):
care looks different for people of color and for the
LGBTQ community or any other marginalized groups. Let's be honest. Politically,
what we've been seeing is horrible, and I think we're
coming through the upswing, but the constant back and forth,
the constant back and forth, it's traumatizing. I maybe it's
(45:23):
because I've been so focused and been so isolated that
that's all I focus on. But these past few years
feel disgusting, whether it's I've lost friendships, I've lost family members,
I've lost trust in people, like there's so much that
we have to talk about, and we have talked about,
and we continue to talk about, and then we put
(45:43):
on people's shoulders to explain it's been a hard damn
year period and self care may just mean I'm not
going to talk to you today, i might not see
my family for a year. I'm okay. Things like that
have happened. And then the amount of death and the
(46:04):
amount of heartache that we've seen on a consistent basis,
and maybe it's just because we're seeing it for the
first time, also because our administration allowed millions of people
to die. All of those things way, So when we
talk about what's happening in the marginalized communities, when we
look at all of the politics that are happening even
(46:25):
today with the trans community, LGBTQ plus community. I just
saw a new law allowing for organizations to discriminate against
the LGBTQ plus community to allowing them to be part
of the group. I see consistently the bills that are
trying to block that community from adopting, which I have
a lot of feels on. We know this, We consistently
(46:48):
see the bills, the injustice that has happened on all
of the levels, MATS shootings, just this freaking week alone
has made me want to vomit. This last month has
been awful. So when we talk about self care, it
may just very well be I don't want to talk
to anyone in the story and that's okay. So to
(47:11):
try to place this whole line of buy this, do this,
be this is damaging in itself. I'm done.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
And when I was researching this, there are a lot
of resources out there for that are for specific marginalized groups.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
And what I was reading from people who.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Were writing about it, and they were talking about the
value of community support and camaraderie and finding those things.
So certainly, if you need those resources there out there
also much bigger conversation, but the whole mass shooting thing,
like some of that is what we're talking about here
with men can't get mental health care.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
Much bigger conversation.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
We also need to talk about accessive and cost here
because of course, when companies got involved, prices went up
for things items that have been in this self care space,
like like skincare, beauty. It can get really pricey, especially
when celebrities and influencers get involved, which more and more
male celebrities have been getting involved in this. I noticed
(48:21):
not an option for everyone and may turn people off
who otherwise would participate in self care. That's what they're seeing,
that's what they think it is. Again, beauty does not
a self care make this in a lot of things,
but for a lot of people that is I have
friends or that is their thing of like doing the
facial and just relaxing, or if we talk about physical
(48:41):
activities that aren't possible or comfortable for everyone for variety
of reasons. Just keeping those things in mind too of
accessibility and yeah, of course there are predatory products out
there marketed as self care that are like guaranteed to.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Get rid of your eyebags or whatever. It is. That's not.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
My friend calls them baggies.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
I bag these, I bag ease. I love it. Yeah.
And for those who have been able to be successful
and maybe publish a book or do some things we kindle, friendships, whatever,
that's phenomenal too, and you should be allowed to celebrate.
That's the other part again, is that guilt level. Don't
point out people and say you're not doing this like me.
(49:25):
Don't do that. Let's just say that, but celebrate what
you have been able to do. Celebrate the good things
in your life. I mean, I do celebrate the fact
that I am able to do this instead of being
in the world, which for my old co workers who
are continually seeing trauma on the outside and then continually
(49:45):
dealing with trauma in their workspace, that's a lot. Yeah,
and I'm very grateful that I am in this space
where I can process it in a different manner now.
But it's not lost on me that people are doing
these jobs and people are doing these things. People are
doing this work, and it's important that we allow for
them to celebrate the things that they have been able
(50:07):
to accomplish. I just remember one of my biggest things
being in that field just constantly thing I just need
one small victory, like crying about it and how big
of a deal it was, whether it's to know that
I helped a kid rehabilitate and get off of probation
in general, like I was able to be like, we're
going to work this out, We're going to do these
things together in the story or hooking them up and
(50:28):
able to get them an internship, to be able to
make money like stuff like that is phenomenal. We're not
going to talk about the incarceration system, which I have
a lot of guilt about in general. But the thing
is there's a collective amount of trauma that is happening,
and we need to be able to celebrate the things
that can be celebrated and for those who have you know,
(50:49):
children in their lives who were able to have babies
and are living in a place of health, and that
those who are seeing someone for the first time, that's
that's wonderful. Congratulations and we celeb write.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
That with you. Yeah, yeah, that's it. I'm glad you
said that, because I do.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
I think that is another aspect of this as people
feel like they can't share happy things right now. I
know I don't That's why I'm like not on a
social media hardly ever anymore. I don't want to post
some of that stuff, but I can't post it the
world is on fire.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
I like self deprecating stuff, like when I tripped and
trusted my ankle in a living room. But for those
who are asking, how, yeah, how do we even go
down this road? Or should we even go down this route?
So if you're listening to this and thinking I need
to start doing this, you don't have to. But if
you want to, or maybe like I need to do better,
(51:42):
how to go about that? Again, you're better stepping from
everybody else's just be healthy. So here are some tipsy.
Choose an activity or activities you enjoy or that relaxes you,
such as playing fiends and trying to beat your coworkers
like Lauren who has yet to reply to my banter.
If that makes you feel better, then do it.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (52:03):
So yeah, get some activities that you like that are healthy,
and then narrow it down to one at first that
you want to start putting into your daily routine.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
So here we're talking more about incorporating it more regularly
as opposed to that sort of one time event. Then yeah,
try implementing it every day for a week. After that
week's done, think about how you feel about it, repeat
with another activity, switch out activities, or just reflect on
how you want to go about it and if it
worked for you and why it did or didn't work
(52:34):
for you, and if.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
It didn't, it's okay, it is moving on.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
It is okay.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
And speaking of I did want to briefly talk about
this because I, like I said, I'm really bad at it.
And I was working on this outline the day after
I got my second dose of the vaccine and I
ended up getting having a pretty severe reaction, i will say.
Speaker 3 (52:56):
And I was.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
In bed and I was shaking so hard that the
bed frame was rattling, and I was sweating.
Speaker 3 (53:04):
It looked like I had gone swimming, and I.
Speaker 1 (53:06):
Was so cold, and I felt so bad, and I
was typing like women.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
Made to do better itself, not that, but essentially, like
how can women be better at self care?
Speaker 1 (53:17):
And then I was working away and Lauren, my coworker
and friend, she texted me and said stop working. And
then she sent an email out to like everybody I
was supposed to work with that day to record and
she said, we're not recording.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
She's good, and then you showed up. You were so
kind and you bought me fun. But I felt guilty
about it because I was.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
Like, oh, no, I I know you wouldn't let me
like I'm doing it. Damn it fine, I'm fine. This
is part of myself here. We've talked about this before,
like for people like me, I love doing things like that,
so I have to do it. So let me do it,
Let me do it.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
I kept being like no, no, no, And then I did
have the thing where I was like so proud of myself,
which is very unhealthy because I was like, wow, I.
Speaker 3 (54:07):
Feel terrible, but look at how much work I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah, and I did nothing. I did nothing. We purposely
didn't record. We changed the date, and I was like,
you know what, this is going to be a rough
one for I don't know, maybe it could be a
rough one. I've seen stories, and of course my reaction
because we ended up getting our shots at the same day,
they were very different, like I was nowhere year as
(54:30):
bad as you were. We had. I had this little
bit of chills and enough fever, but that was quickly gone.
But I was like, I'm just going to check in
on her, make sure she's alive. But we're not talking
about work. And I purposely did not ask about work.
And we did bring some noodles for you, because you know,
this is all about getting together. And that's the other
(54:52):
part to this is you have to recognize when your
body is telling you something. Yeah, because it's telling you
something for a reason. Yeah, And that was, hey, stop it,
go to bed, damn it.
Speaker 3 (55:06):
It's surprisingly difficult to do that.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
I feel like as women, we are especially I can
just speak. In my case, I have distanced myself so
much from my body that it's I can't basic things
like sleepy.
Speaker 3 (55:19):
And hunger, and I don't. I'm working on that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:24):
I on the other hand, I do recognize it, but
it's according to what I have to do. And if
there's just like I felt guilty because I have a
feeling you were working and so I didn't know what
else to do. But I'm like, yeah, but I'm sleepy
and i'm tired, and we can do this later. If
I do things, I don't want to just laid back out.
(55:47):
I was like, I'm done, I'm good. I will do that.
But there are days that I'm like I have to
do more. If it came down to helping someone else,
then yeah, I will do it. But if it comes
down to it's just me, I'm not gonna die.
Speaker 3 (56:08):
So you and I clearly have work to do as well.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Yes, listeners, I have better at it, and like the
fan FicT, writing fan fiction is something I do hiking
whenever we can go, when I can go back out
comfortably because I know I could have always, but I
was never comfortable. That is a big one for me.
So it is something that I have been mindful of
and have been trying to be better at.
Speaker 3 (56:31):
But yes, long ways ago.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
Still well, listeners, we would love to hear about your
self care.
Speaker 3 (56:37):
What do you do or are you any good at it?
Are you terrible at it?
Speaker 1 (56:41):
You can email us our emails Stuff Media mom Stuff
at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter
at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at Stuff I've
Never Told You. Thanks It's always to our super producer Christina.
Thank you Christina, and thanks to you for listening Stuff
I Never Told You. Propection I Heart Radio for more
podcasts from my Heart Radio, visits I Heartrado app Apple podcasts,
or I may listen to your favorite show speaking
Speaker 2 (57:07):
Yeah,
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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Samantha McVey
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