March 22, 2025 • 27 mins
When it comes to women digging up stuff, there's a lot to uncover. We shine a light on one of the most tenacious historical examples, and give an overview of what these fields look like today in this classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Smitha and all someome stuff.
I never told you a prediction of iHeart Radio, and
welcome to another classic. We are bringing back a favor
of mine about Mary Anning and fossils. Yes, because perhaps
(00:30):
because of this episode, I get a lot of updates
about when new fossils are found, and there's actually been
some interesting recent developments. So I love that this is
still something where we're getting new information. There's also been
some recent discovery of new species. That's cool.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
People.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh it's like oh new people.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, yeah, so they found a young girl fossils. Oh my,
I think she was like fourteen.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Yes, so the work is ongoing. The work is ongoing,
and I'm really interested in it, and this was a
fun one that to research, So please enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and what come of stuff?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I never told you a production of iHeartRadio. And today
I'm really excited because we're going to be talking about dinosaurs.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
A little bit, dinosaurs, Dina Salles.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
And palegontology because, as I mentioned, it is the it's
nineteen ninety three, so i'd be the thirtieth an of
her of Jurassic Park, which I loved as a kid,
Which is funny because you went on the Daily Zeitgeist
and talked about it.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yes, because it's one of the host's favorite movie as well.
But he gets real serious. Yeah, so what we discovered.
I really liked the movie too. I still have the
story about the fact that, yes, I played first chair
trombone to this in the band, and I had an
amazing solo.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Nice. Yeah, we played it in ban two. I did
not have an amazing solo though, so sorry one up
you want after me on that one? That's all right?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Trombone?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
It gets it, does it?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I mean if you listen like between like it's all
the horns, you played the horns though, right you went
Did you play.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Uh, clarinet mainly? But I did. I did play some horns,
but mostly clarinet.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, Okay, that's brief. So yeah, essentially yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, it's a beautiful song. Oh, beautiful score.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
It's very memorable. I think everyone played it. I think
everybody played this song.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I think so so. I did love that movie. I
it was one of the first memories I have of
getting in trouble is that I snuck in to see
it that night. I had a nightmare that a raptor
came and killed me.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Four How did you win theater by your.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It was walkable? Walkable?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Did you run away? Questions?
Speaker 1 (03:27):
What it was? This is you know? No, I just walked.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Down the theater by yourself.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Nobody. Well, that was the issue I got in troublesome.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Okay, you snuck away.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I snuck away. Wow. I had to fess up when
I was so scared and like, what did you dream about?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Who are you into this movie? I am so how
did you have money? There are so many questions?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Oh I had I was a saver, even very young.
I was a saper.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Like when you told me you were snuck into a movie,
I assumed you were like eight or nine. Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
But that was also when movie tickets cost like two
three bucks.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I guess so.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
I mean I was a teenager in this point, like
Jurassic Park was new.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
That's when we played the music.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
So when you were saying you played it in the band,
I just which I shouldn't because I am significantly elser
than you. But in my head that was the math.
And then you said that, I was like wait what
my wow?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
The band conductor he had a son who was younger
than me, and he loved like like we played Phantom
Menace soundtrack when it came out because his son loved it,
like I think it was a lot of John Williams
stuff that his son really really likes. But yeah, no,
I got in big trouble because I was too scared
to lie about it, to lie about the raptor.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Coming to kill me, so chipping like it's on the TV.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
No, I don't. I wasn't that good of a liar yet,
I ever though not really know. Oh I haven't quite
mastered that.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
One scary scary dinosaurs.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, it scared me, but I loved it like I
I loved it. And it's funny because I've watched it
so much, even as young, young kid, I remember, like,
it's interesting the different parts that scared me, Like the
parts that scared me then are like the least scary
the scary parts to me now. And we actually we
talked about that in a movie Crush, where Chuck was
(05:28):
saying he's seeing that with his daughter too, Like what
you're afraid of changes as you get older.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Right, I'm afraid of the ride today.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, Oh that's a good ride.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I still don't like it that trenosaurs rocks that comes out, yes,
right before you drown petrified. What I didn't know that
was going to happen because I have this thing with
like giant things sleeping at me that's too close to me.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Not a fan.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, I feel like every friend I've taken on that
ride has been mad at me afterwards.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So we didn't take me on that right. Someone else
took me on my right okay.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
First, and because I was in California my senior year,
I didn't know that I was afraid of that until
I came around like rise like that, and I was like,
oh no, I'm scared of these things. I'm just in
my mind they're going to come to life and kill
me and take me out. But like yeah, and that's
the first time I discovered the popping out of the waterfall.
I was like, what the and then like losing my mind.
(06:27):
I'm like never doing this again.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah yep. And then I came along and and.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I did it.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
But I'm like, I'm now aware, and I did not
it in the front. I will mess it in the
back and I will toss it to the sides if
I can help it.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
That sounds like there's no.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Yeah, when I sit in the middle hole like with people,
I'm not touching the size Hello, going to grab me?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
You know that's fair enough. You know what works for you?
Got it?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
There's would be real bad around dinosaurs in real life,
but I would never survive.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
No, I wouldn't either. No, there is a new ride
at Universe of the Velocit coaster. I'm very excited to
write it. But it does not seem like you're worst thing.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
As long as as I jump at me would go
that like come out they okay, So absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
But I I'll report back after I write it, okay,
because I think it's it goes. It's a fast roller coasters.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I think I was okay, well it was fast.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
I think I'll be concentrating on the fide that I'm
gonna die that way.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Fun. It's so fun, isn't it. Yes? But my family
loved Drastic Park too, and my older brother like he
he had the Drastic Park sheets, he had the toys
and sometimes I got to play with them, including like
the like egg, the velociraptor egg and the t rex
that make the sound, and he moved it. So I
(07:52):
really loved it, and I loved Ellie Sattler. I did
not know. I did not know she was so young
when they filmed that, but I loved her. She was
the one of the first costumes I went to at
jack and Con was as her, and she does have
some interesting I remember being young and she's got that
(08:13):
whole line like women inherit the Earth, and I was like, oh, okay,
So she was a big I meant to do it
before we came here, and now I don't have time
because it's a mess. But I have my Jurassic Park.
I collected Jurassic Park cards and I had a whole
section that was just her and it has like a
(08:34):
really cute Maybe I'll take a picture and post it
on social that's a really cute illustration on it about
how much I loved Jurassic Park.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So I was a very big fan. I read the books.
The books are very different, and I saw an argument recently.
One of the reasons this has been on my mind.
I'm not sure if I ever would have realized this
was the anniversary at all, that so many outlets are
posting about it. I was getting a lot of updates
about it. One of the arguments people are having is
in the book Sean Hammond is a villain. He's like,
(09:06):
clearly a villain gets killed by the comfy sources, and
they were making the argument that it should have been
that way instead of like he made him very likable
in the movie, even though kind of what he did
was pretty.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Not good, not good, very rich, not lie.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
It's kind of along the lines of like going to
charge to the Titanic.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
The rich people like you have too much money, maybe
you want to reconsider this, right, right?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And then it's it is kind of hilarious and kind
of frustrating. But a lot of the articles that I
was reading was like this should not have been a
franchised because then like everyone, you're like, you did this again.
Oh and you did it again, and then you did.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Three more times? What is happening? And you did it
with a kid?
Speaker 4 (09:54):
What?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
There is a really great after Jurassic World came out
a really great dry article from a park planner and
he was just pointing out all of the like things
that were wrong, and it's done in like good humor.
It's not done in but I really enjoyed it. So
I wonder if it's still around you can see our
(10:27):
previous Women in Science episodes. We just reran Women in Archaeology,
Women in Space NASA, which congrats to Sallyaride forty years
since going to space, and was mentioned in the Last
of Us which I Love, Women in Shark Science, which
we've also mentioned recently. A lot of the themes are
(10:49):
very frustratingly similar about like what is going on right
now in the world of these sciences for women. We're
going to talk about that at the end, but we're
going to start with a woman named Mary Anning. So
we're just going to do kind of showcase her because
she made a lot of strides, a lot of first
in paleontology that we know of, because it says we
(11:10):
know first can be complicated in what gets reported, which
we are going to talk about, and then look at
what's going on at large today. So Mary Anning was
a fossil hunter pioneer at a time when the field
of sciences was outright hostile to women. She was kept
out of conferences, her discoveries were published under the name
(11:30):
of men. Often. There are books and movies about her,
including the twenty twenty fictionalized lesbian romance Ammonite which I
had not heard of, so briefly. She was born along
what is called the Jurassic Coast of southwestern England, so
named because there are fossils still being discovered there. It's
a UNESCO World Heritage Site now in seventeen ninety nine.
(11:53):
Her family was Protestant. They were religious dissimpers who separated
from the Church of England. They were very poor. Her
father made cabinets but also collected fossils. Of her nine
or ten siblings. Only she and her older brother made
it into adulthood. And there is a legend that during
a storm while she was an infant, a friend of
(12:14):
the family retreated with her two children under a tree
or two children under a tree, and a lightning strike
killed everyone but Mary, which is quite a story.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
I felt like, this is like like going along the
lines of the bit at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Scientists. But this little story Parloo, it doesn't know.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
I felt that too, Samath, that you are not alone.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Okay, we watched too many movies, yea.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
So by five or six she was helping her father
gathered fossils, which was incredibly, incredibly rare for a girl
at this time. He taught her how to search for
fossils on the beach, how to clean them, and they
would display them and sometimes sell them in his shop.
It was the norm for girls in her area not
to receive any formal education, but she knew how to
(13:02):
read and taught herself about geology and anatomy. Her father
died suddenly in eighteen ten, and Mary's older brother Joseph,
took over the shop while her mother encouraged Mary to
sell her fies to help them make money.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, and the popular theory is that he died he
had tuberculosis and he fell off the cliffs while they
were collecting fossils.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
So yeah, it was pretty all very sad.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
But I'm like, this is really dark English, like historically
it is.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
It is, and it's not gonna get too much better. Well, well,
the area she lived in Lime Regis was packed with
ammonites and bellum nites, and when locals were being guided
towards vacationing locally during the Napoleonic Wars, many people flocked
to this area in this beach, and collecting fossils sort
(13:53):
of became posh, like it was something you'd come back from,
like a souvenir from this trip, like Oh look what
I found, So it kind of grew in popularity.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Joseph happened to discover a fossil of an odd looking
skull in eighteen twelve, married, then twelve years old, went
about uncovering the whole thing, revealing a skeleton of five
point two meters in length about fifteen feet. It took
her months, and the whole town.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Knew about it.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Speculating she found the remains of a monster. Scientist thought
it was a crocodile, which, yes, it is a monster.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Oh true, crocodiles terrify me. For quick context here, like
very quick. Most people at the time believed that unrecognizable
fossils like this were those of creatures that migrated from
somewhere far away. The father of paleontology, Jors Cuvier, had
(14:49):
only recently put forth the idea of extinction. Darwin's origin
of the species was almost five decades off, so basically
no one knew what the heck it was or what
was going on here, but they were like, probably from
somewhere far away. Four years scientists debated the origins of
the fossil, eventually calling it Ichthiosaurus or fish lizard, though
(15:11):
it was neither fish nor lizard. Nowadays we know this
creature was living two hundred and one to one hundred
and ninety four million years ago. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
So in the eighteen twenties, a friend of the family
and fossil collector named Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Burch auctioned off
his fossil collections to raise money for the family, explaining
they shouldn't live in poverty when they quote found almost
all the fine things which have been submitted to scientific investigation,
and he donated the proceeds to them.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
This was not the last of Mary's controversial discoveries either.
In eighteen twenty three, she was the first to discover
the whole skeleton of a Plesiosaurus. It was so unlike
anything people had ever seen that rumors that it was
fake spread like wildfire. Cuvier himself stepped in allegend that
it could not be real. It was this whole thing.
(16:03):
There was a special meeting called at the Geological Society
of London where they debated back and forth, and eventually
Coulder backtracked and admitted he was wrong and said that
it was quote the most amazing creature ever discovered. Mary
was not invited to defend her herself, though to any
of this further, the scientific community at large was wary
(16:24):
of her, an avoidant of recognizing her work, in spite
of her growing reputation for finding fossils. On many occasions,
male scientists would buy the fossil she discovered and cleaned
and even identified sometimes and take credit for the discovery
without mentioning her at all, even when writing about it,
including her ichtheisaur find. The Geological Society wouldn't let her in,
(16:46):
and in fact, it didn't allow any women in their
ranks until nineteen oh four. Mary found a fossil of
a creature with wings in eighteen twenty eight, a pterodactyl.
Once again, word traveled quickly about her find Around this time,
she also was a trailblazer in the study of coppro
lights or fossilized poop. She has a lot of first
(17:07):
we're not going to go over all of them, but
she has quite a few, and she'd make these detailed
drawings and descriptions of her findings to not just the poop,
all of them. Eventually, she made enough money to buy
a house with a storefront to sell fossils, and spent
a lot of her time fossil hunting, even in dangerous conditions.
For instance, a rock fall almost killed her and did
(17:28):
kill her dog in eighteen thirty three.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Oh no, so here's a quote from the time printed
in the Bristol Mirror. This persevering female has for years
gone daily in search of fossil remains of importance at
every tide, for many miles under the hanging cliffs at Lime,
whose fallen masses are her immediate object, as they alone
contain these valuable relics of a former world, which must
(17:53):
be snatched at the moment of their fall, at the
continual risk of being crushed by the half suspended fragments
that they leave behind, or be left to be destroyed
by the returning tide. To her exertion. We owe nearly
all the five speci months of Easauri are the great collections.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
She did have a reputation. People called her the geological
Lioness and the palaeontology princess.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I like the lion I do do.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Throughout all of this, she continued to sell fossils, helping
grow the public interest in fossils to the point museums
were struggling to meet demand. Her discoveries inspired her friend,
geologist Henri de la Besch to paint Dirya Antikrier, a
more ancient Dorset, which he sold to raise money for Mary,
who was still struggling financially. In this painting, if you
look it up, it's pretty intense number one. But it
(18:41):
was also the start of kind of like this, this
sort of painting of fossils or artistic displays of fossils.
But yeah, he sold it to raise money for Mary,
who's still struggling financially. Yes, it was the first pictorial
art based on fossil evidence, and they were all her
discoveries that he was depicting. Discoveries also inspired the eighteen
(19:01):
forty novel The Great Sea Dragons by Thomas Hawkins. It
was a geologist. Still many did not believe that a woman,
and especially a lower class woman, could possibly possess the
skills to make these discoveries.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
So here's an eighteen twenty four letter from the Lady
Harriet Sylvester about Mary.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Quote.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
The extraordinary thing in this young woman is that she
has made herself so thoroughly acquainted with the science that
the moment she finds any bones, she knows to what
tribe they belong. She fixes the bones on a frame
with seamen, and then makes drawings and has them engraved.
It is certainly a wonderful instance of divine favor that
this poor ignorant girl should be so blessed for by
(19:43):
reading an application, she has arrived at that degree of
knowledge as to be in the habit of writing and
talking with professors and other clever men on the subject,
and they all acknowledge that she understands more of the
science than anyone else in this kingdom.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
How nice? Kind of insulting?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, well, especially because like that divine hands bit is
kind of implying like God granted her this gift and
it's not hers and she was really a religious woman,
but through this work she did not she did not
believe in the Bible's timeline of like when earth was
created in all of that, and that got her in
(20:23):
some hot water with some folks. But Yeah, when I
was reading this, so I was kind of like interesting, Okay, interesting,
But as as this lady was saying, they weren't just
buying her fossils which she had to sell to make
ends meet and taking the credit. They traveled to learn
from her too, here's a letter from a friend of hers.
(20:46):
According to her account, these men of learning have sucked
her brains and made a great deal by publishing works
of which she furnished the contents, while she derived none
of the advantages. And then here's another quote from National Geographic.
An inanimate French Nata Missed unjustly accused her of fraud.
The world has used me so unkindly, she wrote a friend,
I fear it has made me suspicious of all mankind.
(21:08):
Gideon Mantel, a physician and fossil hunter himself, who visited
her quote dirty Little Shop in eighteen thirty two, churlishly
called her a prim, pedantic, vinegar looking thin female.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Right girl? Looking? Is that that sour face?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I am?
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I guess she just wasn't smiling enough for him.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Oh so, here's a quote from eighteen thirty seven from
a German explorer. We had the pleasure of making the
acquaintance of the princess of paleontology, Miss Anning. She is
a strong, energetic spinster of about twenty eight years of age,
tenned and masculine in expression.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
She was thirty eight, so she was good.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I died laughing when I read that energetic spinster of
twenty eight. I do think that maybe the word was
used here as more being single, but in our modern
day connotation, I feel like as a much more like older.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Also, but you are Spencer if you're not married by
the age of seventeen sixteen, I guess, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
But from my modern understanding, when I read that, I
laughed so right and then with.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
My entire line like masculine and then affords us also
an insult.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
We know and during this point in time.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Anning died at the age of forty seven of breast
cancer in eighteen forty seven. She never married or had children.
Dayla Bash broke the society's members only rule to read
her eulogy at a meeting quote, I cannot close this
notice of our losses by death without adverting to that
of one who, though not placed among even the easier
class of society, but one who had to earn her
(22:54):
daily bread by her labor, yet contributed by her talents
and untiring researches, and no small degree to our knowledge.
And yeah, many of her discoveries are now on display
at the Natural History Museum of London. She has a
children's book. She has a couple of documentaries I think
about her, and a couple of books, so she's got
(23:17):
some recognition now. But when I was thinking about it,
when I was reading about it, in a lot of ways,
we haven't come that far. And we're still having this
fight about credit and museums now, especially when it comes
to people of color. That is still ongoing and centuries later. Yeah,
many struggle to name five famous women scientists, which is
(23:41):
actually a statistic. I'm not just making that up. That
is a thing from a Smithsonian article quote. Women today
make up nearly half of student members in organizations like
the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology, but Ohio University Paleontologists catin
early notes less than one quarter of professional men. People
with staff jobs like curator or professor are women. Their
(24:05):
reasons ranged from subtle discrimination to direct sexual harassment, but
they are all interrelated. From the classroom to the field.
Women are still trying to dig out from the attitude
that paleontology is a boys club. And the article went
on with this quote, it's only in the past few
years that the true extent of harassment in scientific field
work has come to light. So in the best data
(24:26):
we have comes from the anthropologists Katherine Clancy and colleagues,
who in twenty fourteen reported that in a survey of
six hundred and sixty six field scientists across disciplines, sixty
four percent said they had faced some form of sexual
harassment in the field, and over twenty percent had been
sexually assaulted. The pattern was clear. Victims were of lower
(24:47):
professional rank than their harassers, many of whom felt that
they were in no position to report their abusers. Women
trainees were the primary targets of abuse the researchers found,
while their perpetrators were predominantly senior to them professionally within
the research team, and many reported that they felt they
got no justice after reporting and in fact have been punished,
(25:08):
which is what we talked about in our Shark Science episode, Yes,
Women in Shark Science. And here's another quote from that
article about tropes. The public image of paleontologists as Indiana
Jones type characters doesn't help any. Through decades of science popularization,
were left with the image of a paleontologist as a
scruffy white man and a cowboy hat. Paleontologists such as
(25:31):
Jack Horner and Bob Becker have even served as the
inspiration for characters in Jurassic Park movies, standing in as
stereotypical paleo's who represent the entire field in the minds
of the public. Just funny because I always think of Elly,
but point is correct. But yes, documentaries on dinosaurs also
(25:53):
have been called out for featuring zero women, zero people
of color. We talked about that again in that Shark
Science episode about Shark Week. So in light of that,
there are some women's specific conferences. There are conferences for
people of color specifically LGBTQ plus conferences in this field
where it's more about finding camaraderie, community and working to
(26:15):
build like organizations where they can get more people in
this field and we can talk about these issues. So
that's good to see. It is unfortunate that this is
where we are in twenty twenty three, but it is
good to see. And I would love if listeners, if
you have been to anything like this, if you have
any thoughts on this. I know we have some people
(26:36):
who work it's not the same thing, but who work
in museums or curating in one way or the other,
so that would be cool. Just let us know. You
can email us at Stephania Moms stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter, am most a podcast,
or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've Never Told You.
We're us on YouTube. We have a tea public store.
We have a book. You can pre order it at
(26:58):
stuff you Should Read Books dot com. You can also
pre ordered at Audible. Thanks as always to our super
producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Steffan Never Told You is projection of iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts on my heart Radio, you can check out the
iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or where you listen to
your favorite shows
Hey, this is Annie and Smitha and all someome stuff.
I never told you a prediction of iHeart Radio, and
welcome to another classic. We are bringing back a favor
of mine about Mary Anning and fossils. Yes, because perhaps
(00:30):
because of this episode, I get a lot of updates
about when new fossils are found, and there's actually been
some interesting recent developments. So I love that this is
still something where we're getting new information. There's also been
some recent discovery of new species. That's cool.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
People.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh it's like oh new people.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, yeah, so they found a young girl fossils. Oh my,
I think she was like fourteen.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Yes, so the work is ongoing. The work is ongoing,
and I'm really interested in it, and this was a
fun one that to research, So please enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and what come of stuff?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I never told you a production of iHeartRadio. And today
I'm really excited because we're going to be talking about dinosaurs.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
A little bit, dinosaurs, Dina Salles.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
And palegontology because, as I mentioned, it is the it's
nineteen ninety three, so i'd be the thirtieth an of
her of Jurassic Park, which I loved as a kid,
Which is funny because you went on the Daily Zeitgeist
and talked about it.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yes, because it's one of the host's favorite movie as well.
But he gets real serious. Yeah, so what we discovered.
I really liked the movie too. I still have the
story about the fact that, yes, I played first chair
trombone to this in the band, and I had an
amazing solo.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Nice. Yeah, we played it in ban two. I did
not have an amazing solo though, so sorry one up
you want after me on that one? That's all right?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Trombone?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
It gets it, does it?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I mean if you listen like between like it's all
the horns, you played the horns though, right you went
Did you play.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Uh, clarinet mainly? But I did. I did play some horns,
but mostly clarinet.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, Okay, that's brief. So yeah, essentially yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, it's a beautiful song. Oh, beautiful score.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
It's very memorable. I think everyone played it. I think
everybody played this song.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I think so so. I did love that movie. I
it was one of the first memories I have of
getting in trouble is that I snuck in to see
it that night. I had a nightmare that a raptor
came and killed me.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Four How did you win theater by your.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It was walkable? Walkable?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Did you run away? Questions?
Speaker 1 (03:27):
What it was? This is you know? No, I just walked.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Down the theater by yourself.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Nobody. Well, that was the issue I got in troublesome.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Okay, you snuck away.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I snuck away. Wow. I had to fess up when
I was so scared and like, what did you dream about?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Who are you into this movie? I am so how
did you have money? There are so many questions?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Oh I had I was a saver, even very young.
I was a saper.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Like when you told me you were snuck into a movie,
I assumed you were like eight or nine. Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
But that was also when movie tickets cost like two
three bucks.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I guess so.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
I mean I was a teenager in this point, like
Jurassic Park was new.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
That's when we played the music.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
So when you were saying you played it in the band,
I just which I shouldn't because I am significantly elser
than you. But in my head that was the math.
And then you said that, I was like wait what
my wow?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
The band conductor he had a son who was younger
than me, and he loved like like we played Phantom
Menace soundtrack when it came out because his son loved it,
like I think it was a lot of John Williams
stuff that his son really really likes. But yeah, no,
I got in big trouble because I was too scared
to lie about it, to lie about the raptor.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Coming to kill me, so chipping like it's on the TV.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
No, I don't. I wasn't that good of a liar yet,
I ever though not really know. Oh I haven't quite
mastered that.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
One scary scary dinosaurs.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, it scared me, but I loved it like I
I loved it. And it's funny because I've watched it
so much, even as young, young kid, I remember, like,
it's interesting the different parts that scared me, Like the
parts that scared me then are like the least scary
the scary parts to me now. And we actually we
talked about that in a movie Crush, where Chuck was
(05:28):
saying he's seeing that with his daughter too, Like what
you're afraid of changes as you get older.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Right, I'm afraid of the ride today.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, Oh that's a good ride.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I still don't like it that trenosaurs rocks that comes out, yes,
right before you drown petrified. What I didn't know that
was going to happen because I have this thing with
like giant things sleeping at me that's too close to me.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Not a fan.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, I feel like every friend I've taken on that
ride has been mad at me afterwards.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So we didn't take me on that right. Someone else
took me on my right okay.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
First, and because I was in California my senior year,
I didn't know that I was afraid of that until
I came around like rise like that, and I was like,
oh no, I'm scared of these things. I'm just in
my mind they're going to come to life and kill
me and take me out. But like yeah, and that's
the first time I discovered the popping out of the waterfall.
I was like, what the and then like losing my mind.
(06:27):
I'm like never doing this again.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah yep. And then I came along and and.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I did it.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
But I'm like, I'm now aware, and I did not
it in the front. I will mess it in the
back and I will toss it to the sides if
I can help it.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
That sounds like there's no.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Yeah, when I sit in the middle hole like with people,
I'm not touching the size Hello, going to grab me?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
You know that's fair enough. You know what works for you?
Got it?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
There's would be real bad around dinosaurs in real life,
but I would never survive.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
No, I wouldn't either. No, there is a new ride
at Universe of the Velocit coaster. I'm very excited to
write it. But it does not seem like you're worst thing.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
As long as as I jump at me would go
that like come out they okay, So absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
But I I'll report back after I write it, okay,
because I think it's it goes. It's a fast roller coasters.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I think I was okay, well it was fast.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
I think I'll be concentrating on the fide that I'm
gonna die that way.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Fun. It's so fun, isn't it. Yes? But my family
loved Drastic Park too, and my older brother like he
he had the Drastic Park sheets, he had the toys
and sometimes I got to play with them, including like
the like egg, the velociraptor egg and the t rex
that make the sound, and he moved it. So I
(07:52):
really loved it, and I loved Ellie Sattler. I did
not know. I did not know she was so young
when they filmed that, but I loved her. She was
the one of the first costumes I went to at
jack and Con was as her, and she does have
some interesting I remember being young and she's got that
(08:13):
whole line like women inherit the Earth, and I was like, oh, okay,
So she was a big I meant to do it
before we came here, and now I don't have time
because it's a mess. But I have my Jurassic Park.
I collected Jurassic Park cards and I had a whole
section that was just her and it has like a
(08:34):
really cute Maybe I'll take a picture and post it
on social that's a really cute illustration on it about
how much I loved Jurassic Park.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So I was a very big fan. I read the books.
The books are very different, and I saw an argument recently.
One of the reasons this has been on my mind.
I'm not sure if I ever would have realized this
was the anniversary at all, that so many outlets are
posting about it. I was getting a lot of updates
about it. One of the arguments people are having is
in the book Sean Hammond is a villain. He's like,
(09:06):
clearly a villain gets killed by the comfy sources, and
they were making the argument that it should have been
that way instead of like he made him very likable
in the movie, even though kind of what he did
was pretty.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Not good, not good, very rich, not lie.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
It's kind of along the lines of like going to
charge to the Titanic.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
The rich people like you have too much money, maybe
you want to reconsider this, right, right?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And then it's it is kind of hilarious and kind
of frustrating. But a lot of the articles that I
was reading was like this should not have been a
franchised because then like everyone, you're like, you did this again.
Oh and you did it again, and then you did.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Three more times? What is happening? And you did it
with a kid?
Speaker 4 (09:54):
What?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
There is a really great after Jurassic World came out
a really great dry article from a park planner and
he was just pointing out all of the like things
that were wrong, and it's done in like good humor.
It's not done in but I really enjoyed it. So
I wonder if it's still around you can see our
(10:27):
previous Women in Science episodes. We just reran Women in Archaeology,
Women in Space NASA, which congrats to Sallyaride forty years
since going to space, and was mentioned in the Last
of Us which I Love, Women in Shark Science, which
we've also mentioned recently. A lot of the themes are
(10:49):
very frustratingly similar about like what is going on right
now in the world of these sciences for women. We're
going to talk about that at the end, but we're
going to start with a woman named Mary Anning. So
we're just going to do kind of showcase her because
she made a lot of strides, a lot of first
in paleontology that we know of, because it says we
(11:10):
know first can be complicated in what gets reported, which
we are going to talk about, and then look at
what's going on at large today. So Mary Anning was
a fossil hunter pioneer at a time when the field
of sciences was outright hostile to women. She was kept
out of conferences, her discoveries were published under the name
(11:30):
of men. Often. There are books and movies about her,
including the twenty twenty fictionalized lesbian romance Ammonite which I
had not heard of, so briefly. She was born along
what is called the Jurassic Coast of southwestern England, so
named because there are fossils still being discovered there. It's
a UNESCO World Heritage Site now in seventeen ninety nine.
(11:53):
Her family was Protestant. They were religious dissimpers who separated
from the Church of England. They were very poor. Her
father made cabinets but also collected fossils. Of her nine
or ten siblings. Only she and her older brother made
it into adulthood. And there is a legend that during
a storm while she was an infant, a friend of
(12:14):
the family retreated with her two children under a tree
or two children under a tree, and a lightning strike
killed everyone but Mary, which is quite a story.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
I felt like, this is like like going along the
lines of the bit at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Scientists. But this little story Parloo, it doesn't know.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
I felt that too, Samath, that you are not alone.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Okay, we watched too many movies, yea.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
So by five or six she was helping her father
gathered fossils, which was incredibly, incredibly rare for a girl
at this time. He taught her how to search for
fossils on the beach, how to clean them, and they
would display them and sometimes sell them in his shop.
It was the norm for girls in her area not
to receive any formal education, but she knew how to
(13:02):
read and taught herself about geology and anatomy. Her father
died suddenly in eighteen ten, and Mary's older brother Joseph,
took over the shop while her mother encouraged Mary to
sell her fies to help them make money.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, and the popular theory is that he died he
had tuberculosis and he fell off the cliffs while they
were collecting fossils.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
So yeah, it was pretty all very sad.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
But I'm like, this is really dark English, like historically
it is.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
It is, and it's not gonna get too much better. Well, well,
the area she lived in Lime Regis was packed with
ammonites and bellum nites, and when locals were being guided
towards vacationing locally during the Napoleonic Wars, many people flocked
to this area in this beach, and collecting fossils sort
(13:53):
of became posh, like it was something you'd come back from,
like a souvenir from this trip, like Oh look what
I found, So it kind of grew in popularity.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Joseph happened to discover a fossil of an odd looking
skull in eighteen twelve, married, then twelve years old, went
about uncovering the whole thing, revealing a skeleton of five
point two meters in length about fifteen feet. It took
her months, and the whole town.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Knew about it.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Speculating she found the remains of a monster. Scientist thought
it was a crocodile, which, yes, it is a monster.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Oh true, crocodiles terrify me. For quick context here, like
very quick. Most people at the time believed that unrecognizable
fossils like this were those of creatures that migrated from
somewhere far away. The father of paleontology, Jors Cuvier, had
(14:49):
only recently put forth the idea of extinction. Darwin's origin
of the species was almost five decades off, so basically
no one knew what the heck it was or what
was going on here, but they were like, probably from
somewhere far away. Four years scientists debated the origins of
the fossil, eventually calling it Ichthiosaurus or fish lizard, though
(15:11):
it was neither fish nor lizard. Nowadays we know this
creature was living two hundred and one to one hundred
and ninety four million years ago. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
So in the eighteen twenties, a friend of the family
and fossil collector named Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Burch auctioned off
his fossil collections to raise money for the family, explaining
they shouldn't live in poverty when they quote found almost
all the fine things which have been submitted to scientific investigation,
and he donated the proceeds to them.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
This was not the last of Mary's controversial discoveries either.
In eighteen twenty three, she was the first to discover
the whole skeleton of a Plesiosaurus. It was so unlike
anything people had ever seen that rumors that it was
fake spread like wildfire. Cuvier himself stepped in allegend that
it could not be real. It was this whole thing.
(16:03):
There was a special meeting called at the Geological Society
of London where they debated back and forth, and eventually
Coulder backtracked and admitted he was wrong and said that
it was quote the most amazing creature ever discovered. Mary
was not invited to defend her herself, though to any
of this further, the scientific community at large was wary
(16:24):
of her, an avoidant of recognizing her work, in spite
of her growing reputation for finding fossils. On many occasions,
male scientists would buy the fossil she discovered and cleaned
and even identified sometimes and take credit for the discovery
without mentioning her at all, even when writing about it,
including her ichtheisaur find. The Geological Society wouldn't let her in,
(16:46):
and in fact, it didn't allow any women in their
ranks until nineteen oh four. Mary found a fossil of
a creature with wings in eighteen twenty eight, a pterodactyl.
Once again, word traveled quickly about her find Around this time,
she also was a trailblazer in the study of coppro
lights or fossilized poop. She has a lot of first
(17:07):
we're not going to go over all of them, but
she has quite a few, and she'd make these detailed
drawings and descriptions of her findings to not just the poop,
all of them. Eventually, she made enough money to buy
a house with a storefront to sell fossils, and spent
a lot of her time fossil hunting, even in dangerous conditions.
For instance, a rock fall almost killed her and did
(17:28):
kill her dog in eighteen thirty three.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Oh no, so here's a quote from the time printed
in the Bristol Mirror. This persevering female has for years
gone daily in search of fossil remains of importance at
every tide, for many miles under the hanging cliffs at Lime,
whose fallen masses are her immediate object, as they alone
contain these valuable relics of a former world, which must
(17:53):
be snatched at the moment of their fall, at the
continual risk of being crushed by the half suspended fragments
that they leave behind, or be left to be destroyed
by the returning tide. To her exertion. We owe nearly
all the five speci months of Easauri are the great collections.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
She did have a reputation. People called her the geological
Lioness and the palaeontology princess.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I like the lion I do do.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Throughout all of this, she continued to sell fossils, helping
grow the public interest in fossils to the point museums
were struggling to meet demand. Her discoveries inspired her friend,
geologist Henri de la Besch to paint Dirya Antikrier, a
more ancient Dorset, which he sold to raise money for Mary,
who was still struggling financially. In this painting, if you
look it up, it's pretty intense number one. But it
(18:41):
was also the start of kind of like this, this
sort of painting of fossils or artistic displays of fossils.
But yeah, he sold it to raise money for Mary,
who's still struggling financially. Yes, it was the first pictorial
art based on fossil evidence, and they were all her
discoveries that he was depicting. Discoveries also inspired the eighteen
(19:01):
forty novel The Great Sea Dragons by Thomas Hawkins. It
was a geologist. Still many did not believe that a woman,
and especially a lower class woman, could possibly possess the
skills to make these discoveries.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
So here's an eighteen twenty four letter from the Lady
Harriet Sylvester about Mary.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Quote.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
The extraordinary thing in this young woman is that she
has made herself so thoroughly acquainted with the science that
the moment she finds any bones, she knows to what
tribe they belong. She fixes the bones on a frame
with seamen, and then makes drawings and has them engraved.
It is certainly a wonderful instance of divine favor that
this poor ignorant girl should be so blessed for by
(19:43):
reading an application, she has arrived at that degree of
knowledge as to be in the habit of writing and
talking with professors and other clever men on the subject,
and they all acknowledge that she understands more of the
science than anyone else in this kingdom.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
How nice? Kind of insulting?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, well, especially because like that divine hands bit is
kind of implying like God granted her this gift and
it's not hers and she was really a religious woman,
but through this work she did not she did not
believe in the Bible's timeline of like when earth was
created in all of that, and that got her in
(20:23):
some hot water with some folks. But Yeah, when I
was reading this, so I was kind of like interesting, Okay, interesting,
But as as this lady was saying, they weren't just
buying her fossils which she had to sell to make
ends meet and taking the credit. They traveled to learn
from her too, here's a letter from a friend of hers.
(20:46):
According to her account, these men of learning have sucked
her brains and made a great deal by publishing works
of which she furnished the contents, while she derived none
of the advantages. And then here's another quote from National Geographic.
An inanimate French Nata Missed unjustly accused her of fraud.
The world has used me so unkindly, she wrote a friend,
I fear it has made me suspicious of all mankind.
(21:08):
Gideon Mantel, a physician and fossil hunter himself, who visited
her quote dirty Little Shop in eighteen thirty two, churlishly
called her a prim, pedantic, vinegar looking thin female.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Right girl? Looking? Is that that sour face?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I am?
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I guess she just wasn't smiling enough for him.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Oh so, here's a quote from eighteen thirty seven from
a German explorer. We had the pleasure of making the
acquaintance of the princess of paleontology, Miss Anning. She is
a strong, energetic spinster of about twenty eight years of age,
tenned and masculine in expression.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
She was thirty eight, so she was good.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I died laughing when I read that energetic spinster of
twenty eight. I do think that maybe the word was
used here as more being single, but in our modern
day connotation, I feel like as a much more like older.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Also, but you are Spencer if you're not married by
the age of seventeen sixteen, I guess, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
But from my modern understanding, when I read that, I
laughed so right and then with.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
My entire line like masculine and then affords us also
an insult.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
We know and during this point in time.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Anning died at the age of forty seven of breast
cancer in eighteen forty seven. She never married or had children.
Dayla Bash broke the society's members only rule to read
her eulogy at a meeting quote, I cannot close this
notice of our losses by death without adverting to that
of one who, though not placed among even the easier
class of society, but one who had to earn her
(22:54):
daily bread by her labor, yet contributed by her talents
and untiring researches, and no small degree to our knowledge.
And yeah, many of her discoveries are now on display
at the Natural History Museum of London. She has a
children's book. She has a couple of documentaries I think
about her, and a couple of books, so she's got
(23:17):
some recognition now. But when I was thinking about it,
when I was reading about it, in a lot of ways,
we haven't come that far. And we're still having this
fight about credit and museums now, especially when it comes
to people of color. That is still ongoing and centuries later. Yeah,
many struggle to name five famous women scientists, which is
(23:41):
actually a statistic. I'm not just making that up. That
is a thing from a Smithsonian article quote. Women today
make up nearly half of student members in organizations like
the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology, but Ohio University Paleontologists catin
early notes less than one quarter of professional men. People
with staff jobs like curator or professor are women. Their
(24:05):
reasons ranged from subtle discrimination to direct sexual harassment, but
they are all interrelated. From the classroom to the field.
Women are still trying to dig out from the attitude
that paleontology is a boys club. And the article went
on with this quote, it's only in the past few
years that the true extent of harassment in scientific field
work has come to light. So in the best data
(24:26):
we have comes from the anthropologists Katherine Clancy and colleagues,
who in twenty fourteen reported that in a survey of
six hundred and sixty six field scientists across disciplines, sixty
four percent said they had faced some form of sexual
harassment in the field, and over twenty percent had been
sexually assaulted. The pattern was clear. Victims were of lower
(24:47):
professional rank than their harassers, many of whom felt that
they were in no position to report their abusers. Women
trainees were the primary targets of abuse the researchers found,
while their perpetrators were predominantly senior to them professionally within
the research team, and many reported that they felt they
got no justice after reporting and in fact have been punished,
(25:08):
which is what we talked about in our Shark Science episode, Yes,
Women in Shark Science. And here's another quote from that
article about tropes. The public image of paleontologists as Indiana
Jones type characters doesn't help any. Through decades of science popularization,
were left with the image of a paleontologist as a
scruffy white man and a cowboy hat. Paleontologists such as
(25:31):
Jack Horner and Bob Becker have even served as the
inspiration for characters in Jurassic Park movies, standing in as
stereotypical paleo's who represent the entire field in the minds
of the public. Just funny because I always think of Elly,
but point is correct. But yes, documentaries on dinosaurs also
(25:53):
have been called out for featuring zero women, zero people
of color. We talked about that again in that Shark
Science episode about Shark Week. So in light of that,
there are some women's specific conferences. There are conferences for
people of color specifically LGBTQ plus conferences in this field
where it's more about finding camaraderie, community and working to
(26:15):
build like organizations where they can get more people in
this field and we can talk about these issues. So
that's good to see. It is unfortunate that this is
where we are in twenty twenty three, but it is
good to see. And I would love if listeners, if
you have been to anything like this, if you have
any thoughts on this. I know we have some people
(26:36):
who work it's not the same thing, but who work
in museums or curating in one way or the other,
so that would be cool. Just let us know. You
can email us at Stephania Moms stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter, am most a podcast,
or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've Never Told You.
We're us on YouTube. We have a tea public store.
We have a book. You can pre order it at
(26:58):
stuff you Should Read Books dot com. You can also
pre ordered at Audible. Thanks as always to our super
producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Steffan Never Told You is projection of iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts on my heart Radio, you can check out the
iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or where you listen to
your favorite shows
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