August 24, 2024 • 42 mins
It's not that there are no women coaching female basketball (consider the legendary Pat Summit and others), but Title IX has more male coaches. Join Caroline and Cristen as they explore homophobia, sexism and the glass wall that coaches often run into in this classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
Will Never Told You Production. I heart are you, And
today we are bringing back an episode that Kristen and
Caroline did about women coaching women's basketball and why are
(00:27):
there so many women coaches? Now this is a bit
of an older episode and things have changed, but we
talked about this in our recent Olympic episode. We did
that it's still the gender difference is still there. I
noticed it when I was watching the Olympics. I have
to say a lot of the stuff that I mentioned
(00:48):
in my recent Monday mini about the Olympics, they were
women coaches for the US anyway, But it is still
it's still an issue. I think we should maybe come
back and do like a a full blown revisit.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I would love to get some updated.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Right because we have people going into the NFL. People
are going into like different actually like male dominated sports
or male only sports NFL yeah and all that, and
there are women coaches coming through finally, and referees. I
think we need to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yes, I told you, I've been wanting to talk about
referees for a while. Mm hmm. Well, in the meantime,
please enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from HowStuffWorks dot Com.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline,
and we are coming at you in the midst of
March madness, even though it's April.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Yeah, basketball madness.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
NCAA Final Four is about to happen here in the
men's tournament at least is happening in Atlanta, right.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
It's supposed to bring something like seventy million dollars worth
of revenue to the city, and thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
And two hundred million people.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
Who Lamarta is gonna be a little cramped, yeah, and
the streets.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Ah, And for this podcast, we're gonna gripe about traffic
in Atlanta, just kidding. We're gonna talk about basketball, but
we're not talking about the players. We're talking about the
coaches because in honor of the NCAA basketball tournament, we
thought it would be worthwhile looking at women's basketball coaches,
(02:34):
which might sound like a narrow topic, but there is
a lot in here to discuss.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Yeah, I mean, there just aren't as many as perhaps
there should be. And something we'll get into is that. Okay,
so you've got the men's men's basketball, it's all coached
by men. Yeah, and you've got the women's basketball and
it's coached by some women, but a lot of men too.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
But a lot of men.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Yeah. We're gonna get into how title actually corresponded with
fewer women coaching female basketball teams and other factors at play.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Huh pun in all of this, But first, let's talk about.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
The winningest basketball coach in the NCAA, Pat Summitt.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
Yeah. Pat Summitt was actually a basketball player at University
of Tennessee Martin when Title nine was introduced, so she
was kind of in the thick of it. She's now
the head coach emeritus of Tennessee women's basketball team. Thirty
eight years as a head coach, and she stepped down
because she made the very sad announcement that she has Alzheimer's.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Yeah, and she's coming out with a new memoir. I
believe the title is Summit Up. And her story is
pretty incredible. Like you said, Caroline, she was coming up
when Title nine was introduced, and before that. She talks
about how the women's athletic budget at UT Martin when
she got there was about five hundred dollars to be
distributed among volleyball, basketball, and tennis, and after the passage
(04:06):
of Title nine in nineteen seventy two, those budgets increased,
but it wasn't exactly smooth sailing, as we'll talk about
in more detail, but for a little more about Pat Summit.
She ended up playing in the first women's Olympic team
to play basketball, and a little bit more though about
(04:28):
Pat's Summit. Some highlights from her career were not only
did she, you know, play with U Team Martin, but
she also played in the nineteen seventy six Summer Olympic
Games in Montreal because for the first time they had
a women's basketball team, and Summit's team brought home the silver.
And then she went on to coach the team in
(04:50):
the nineteen eighty four Olympics in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (04:54):
Yeah, she has a really interesting perspective as far as
you know, having been a coach all this time, but
also coming up during the whole Title nine passage and everything.
In her new book, she says that three events in
nineteen seventy two changed everything, and that includes that a
group of dedicated women administrators formed the Association of Intercollegiate
Athletics for Women because she says the NCAA didn't yet
(05:16):
care enough about females to bother with us. She also
says that it was very important the announcement that women's
basketball would be an Olympics sport for the first time
at those nineteen seventy six Summer Olympics, and of course
the passing of Title nine.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Yeah, and she talks about how those developments made winning
available to women. For instance, with that establishment, Caroline that
you mentioned of the Association of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
The title is a bit of a mouthful.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
They organized the first championship for women's basketball teams, which
was a really important stepping stone to legitimize the sport
for women. It also made competition more socially acceptable with
Title nine, and it allowed women to play a full
court basketball game.
Speaker 5 (06:04):
Well, thank god. I mean, I'm glad that they reached
the point where they're like, good, it won't bounce your
uterus around too much if you run up and down
a full court.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Right, Because this reminds me of our episode on women
running marathon, and even when Summit was going to those
Summer Olympics in nineteen seventy six in Montreal, it was
still a crazy idea for.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
A woman to run that long of a distance.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
So this was the kind of mindset that was going
on when Title nine was introduced. And Pat Summit is
going to come up a few more times in this
podcast because since she is the winningest coach in NC
Double A and the highest paid female coach in the
NC DOUBLEA, she's sort of held, as you know, the
(06:52):
pillar of female coaches. I'd say, not just in basketball,
but pretty much in all collegiate sports because she made
such an incredible name.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
For herself for sure.
Speaker 6 (07:03):
But first, Caroline, speaking of women being allowed to play
full court basketball and bouncing our uteruses around, let's take
a brief historical look at basketball for women.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
Yeah. Well, before it was for women, it was only
for men, obviously, as is everything. Sorry that I didn't
mean that to sound so better.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Except for corsets. Yeah, those have always just been for women.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
Yeah, high heels though, No, that's true for men. Yeah, anyway,
I started it. So, Yeah, Rosemary Scain wrote a very
comprehensive book titled Very Simply Women College Basketball Coaches.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I bet you can guess what that's about.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
But so in eighteen ninety one, basketball was designed for
male athletes who needed a winter sport because God forbid
they not play sports for a minute. So the first
public game was in March eighteen ninety two, but it
was not that long after that women started playing. Three
months after that first public men's game. In March eighteen
ninety two, Senda Berenson, Smith College's director of physical training,
(08:07):
introduced the game to women, and the first women's game
was played March twenty second, eighteen ninety three at Smith.
And in case you're wondering at the score, Kristen Sophomore's five,
freshman four.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, but that.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Game was just between Smith's students. The first intercollegiate women's
game happened between Berkeley and Stanford.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Berkeley alumni out there. You won? Oh no, you lost?
Speaker 5 (08:34):
Christin really wanted you to.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Win, but trivia alert.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Stanford's Martha Clark made the very first basket in women's
intercollegiate history, and she did so while wearing.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
A woolen uniform.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
That covered everything except for the face, neck, and hands.
As were you know the uniforms that all the women
would be wearing.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
I noticed you did not include feet in that list.
Were they footy? Uniform.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
The uniform, I think they were allowed to expose their
feet in order to put them into shoes.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
Well, you know, it is scandalous to have women running
and playing sports, even in full body footy uniforms. The
day of that game, only two men were allowed to watch,
and they were a pell physical education director and an instructor.
Women guarded the windows of the auditorium with sticks to
keep men from sneaking a peak and scain rights. Even
(09:30):
letting women watch was apparently considered dangerous since basketball was
invented form men. Physicians who believed women were delicate said
women would become hysterical watching other women play basketball.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Oh my, oh my. Although I do sometimes become hysterical
watching sporting events.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
But probably not for the reason that they think.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
This is true.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
So it takes a little while, though, for them to
develop rules for women's basketball. In eighteen ninety four, the
first women's rules appeared, but they weren't widely circulated. Then.
In June eighteen ninety nine, Senda Bearnson, who was that
director of physical training at Smith College, worked with other
East Coast physical ed teachers to develop women's rules at
(10:14):
the Conference on Physical Training and so in October of
nineteen oh one, finally a good year. Yes, Spalding Sporting
Goods published her rules as the official rules for women's basketball.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
But those rules.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Emphasize maintaining ladylike behavior of course, no snatching of the
ball for instance. But Benson did favor physical activity. She said, quote,
it's all the more to develop health and endurance if
they desire to become candidates for equal wages. So a
little bit of feminism tossed in there as well. Basketball
playing basketball can help you earn equal wages with men.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
It can close the gender gap.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Unfortunately, send to Bearnson, those predictions were not not really
uh come to fruition.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
Yeah, well, Clelia Duelle Mosher, I'm sorry if I'm really
sorry if I just butchered her name. She was a
physician background this time in the Victorian era, and she
agreed with Bearnson as far as like, let women have
physical activity. So no, she had nothing to do with
actual basketball. But it was during this time that she
was of the same school of thought that women actually
(11:23):
needed to have some physical activity, and she wanted to
prove that women were not inferior to men and that
the frailties attributed to sex were really just the effects
of binding garments like those corsets, insufficient exercise and mental conditioning.
So get those women onto the court playing sports and
maybe one day will be equal.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Yeah, Because I mean as much as we think about
how exercise is something that we today can sitter part of,
you know, a well balanced life where you're supposed to
do exercise, what five days a week for sixty minutes
at a time, I'm pulling that out of the air.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
You're supposed to do it a lot.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
But when all of this was going on, it was
socially unacceptable for women to be moving around like that.
This was also the time when things like bicycles were
coming into vogue, and it was a big deal for
women to ride bicycles because it rumors, yes, it would
be straddling things.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
How would you do that.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
You'd have to wear maybe something like a Bloomer invented
by Amelia Bloomer, who was an early feminist. You know,
things that we take for granted were revolutionary at the time,
like basketball.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
But let's talk about a.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Few more of the more modern pioneers of women's basketball,
such as Carol Eckman, who is considered the mother of
collegiate women's basketball national championships. She's best known for establishing
the first national invitational women's interco li legiate basketball tournament
in nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
Yeah, and then we have Teresa Shank Grantz, who is
the former head coach of the women's basketball program at
the University of Illinois, Rutgers University, and Saint Joseph. She's
a member of the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame and
was the Olympic head coach in nineteen ninety two and
that year her team captured the bronze medal in Barcelona.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
And Billy Moore, for some more trivia, was the first
coach in women's basketball history to lead teams from two
different schools to national championships. In those schools were California
State Fullerton and UCLA. So we are moving into the
modern era, and like we said in nineteen seventy two,
(13:45):
Title nine happens. So with Title nine, schools that are
receiving this federal funding have to equally distribute it for
men's and women's athletics. But what we want to look
at is how Title nine impacted not so much the
players and the women who like Pat Summitt benefited from
(14:09):
Title nine by having more resources to be able to
get out on the court or get out on the
field and play. But how again, for people like Pat Summitt,
once their time was up playing, whether or not coaching
would be more open to them as a lucrative occupation.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Right, Well, it definitely influenced how people saw women's sports,
and not just making it more socially acceptable, but also
making it, yeah, like you said, more lucrative because all
of a sudden, all this money's flowing in, and now
maybe men who wouldn't have considered coaching women's teams are like, huh,
there's more in it for me now.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
So yeah, speaking of men being interested in coaching women's teams,
a curious thing happens when Title nine is passed. In
nineteen seventy two, women coached more than ninety percent of
women's teams, but in such a short amount of time,
by nineteen seventy eight, that number had dropped to fifty
(15:09):
eight point two percent, and as of twenty ten, it
was down to forty two point nine percent. So today
women coach fewer than half of women's college teams.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
Yeah, and since two thousand NCAA programs have added one thousand,
seven hundred and seventy four women's head coaching jobs. Men
have filled over twelve hundred of those openings. And you know,
only about three percent of men's teams are coached by women.
And that's a whole other issue, like why aren't women
coaching men's teams either?
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Yeah, and that percentage, the percentage of women coaching men's
teams has not changed at all since Title nine. The
only thing that has dropped is the percentage of women
coaching other women. And a lot of these statistics are
coming from early comprehensive Our to Call from ESPN magazine
written by Kate Fagan and Luke Cipher's on which they're
(16:06):
looking into this gender gap in women coaching, specifically women's teams,
because you would assume, oh, well, women's sports teams, you
can have a women's a female coach, But no, because,
like you said, Caroline, the increased money coming into women's
sports simply made it a more desirable option for men's
(16:29):
coaches who might not have been as qualified right as
potential women's coaches.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
Well, so they looked into some of the reasons as
for like why there aren't as many women coaching teams,
and a lot of it has to do with, Okay,
there's a small pool of female candidates, there's a lack
of second chances for female coaches. A lot of women
if they screw up, it's just kind of it's not
the same revolving door type of situation that men have,
(16:55):
like they can just go to a different team. A
lot of the times, if women are fired or lose
their coaching, that's it for them. A lack of female mentors,
women just not applying for these jobs retaliation for Title
nine complaints. But a lot of it also has to
do with sexism and homophobia. Yeah, there's this habit of
women's basketball coaches hiring male assistants to be kind of
(17:18):
that quote unquote straight presence, because there's this whole issue
in recruiting, of negative recruiting, of saying, you know, we're
a family friendly program, but over there, you know that
female coach at that school, you know, we're not so sure.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Yeah, because the stereotype is is that female sports coaches
are lesbians, and so the type of homophobic recruiting that
goes on is referred to as family friendly recruitment, saying
things like to a new recruit like, oh, you know,
we're a very family oriented environment, with a wink and
(17:56):
a nudge to the parents saying, don't worry your daughter
won't be coached by a lesbian and possibly corrupted because
of this. And again, ESPN magazine covered this in February
twenty eleven in and among fifty five percent of the
college players that ESPN spoke to, they said that sexual
(18:18):
orientation was quote an underlying topic of conversation with college
recruiters fifty five percent. So the homophobia is a pretty
rampant thing, and it's also a deterrent for would be
coaches who might be gay, who are like, you know what,
I don't want to have to live a closeted professional
(18:41):
life and also be you know, slurred for my for
my lifestyle.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
Yeah, that same ESPN article talked about how these homophobic
negative recruiting policies are not policies but practices are pretty
unique to the women's game. You don't have a a
male recruit coming up from high school, coming up the
ranks and them talking about, you know, issues of family friendliness.
But it's a general open secret as far as like
(19:10):
the code words of family friendly.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
For instance, University of Tennessee and University of Connecticut don't
play each other anymore, allegedly due to Yukon's anti gay
recruitment against UT, claiming that, oh Pat.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Summit is a lesbian and so you don't want to
send your kids there.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Apparently it was a huge rivalry and the game used
to be a giant draw until finally Summit and University
of Tennessee where like, you know, we're not even gonna
play this game.
Speaker 5 (19:37):
Well, so now that's less money coming into a women's game, right.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Which you know, women's sports can use as much money
as possible, which we'll get into a little bit later.
But in nineteen eighty two ESPN. But ESPN also talks
about how in nineteen eighty two there was this homophobia
mongering case of Pam Parsons, who resigned as coach of
South Carolina after allegations that she had a relationship with one.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Of her basketball players.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
And they say that since that incident, that kind of
anti gay recruitment has been almost a common.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Part of the process, which is unfortunate.
Speaker 5 (20:18):
Yeah, so common that Portland State's Sherry Mural is the
only out lesbian in Division one women's basketball.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Yeah, and we should say too that it's not just
a thing of the whole family friendly thing. It's not
just a wink and a nudge to you know, homophobic sentiments.
But it's also a thing a wink in a nudge saying, oh,
this isn't a black program either, we are you know,
everything will be safe for your child.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
There's a lot, there's a dirty underbelly to this that's
going on.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
So yeah, we mentioned how, you know, with all with
the influx of funds after the passage of Title nine,
coaching a women's basketball game became our a team, I'm sorry,
became more attractive to male coaches. And this brings us
to what we call a glass wall phenomenon where men
can coach women while women are shut out of the
(21:06):
men's game. So you know, they can see the jobs
through the glass wall, but they can't get there. And
along these same lines, a really interesting survey by Nefert D. Walker,
who is a UMAs Amherst professor and former Division one
basketball player. She talked to male coaches about, you know,
would you hire a woman, would you want to work
(21:27):
with a female coach? She found out that breaking that
institutional norm of hiring a woman as a coach really
required an exceptional candidate, like women have a much higher
burden of proof to use a legal term. Because they
all cited Pat Summit. Yeah, they were all like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
you've got Pat Summit. I mean she's great. I'd totally
(21:47):
work with her.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
I was like, of course, you would hire the winningest
coach in the NC double A. But there does seem
to be sometimes a disconnect maybe between what male athletic
directors or coaches think is going on. It's almost like
a blind sexism that might be happening to what female
(22:08):
coaches or would be coaches are feeling. There was a
study that took place in the nineteen eighties which found
that male athletic directors believed that female coaches left their
schools for just individual.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Reasons like going to spend more time with family or.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
What have you, whereas the female coaches who left had
actually jumped ship due to structural barriers like the glasswall phenomenon,
like the kind of homophobia that is still happening so
often today, and it is a problem because it doesn't
seem to be there, doesn't seem to be a ton
of communication at least between these.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
You know, the men and women in athletics.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
It's just kind of a thing where the female basketball
players don't see many female coaches, they don't have many models,
and they also know of women who are coaching.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
In the rare positions where they are coaching or our.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Assistants, and they really don't like the jobs all that
much and so they choose other paths.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
Right, Yeah, that's definitely a cycle. You see fewer coaches,
you have fewer role models, you might not choose that path,
and then you have no female coaches anymore. And it's
interesting that other Division one sports who which are traditionally
coached by women, are starting to see a decline also
in female coaches, like Division one softball female coaches are
(23:32):
down from seventy four point eight percent in two thousand
to sixty percent and twenty ten, and Division one field
hockey female coaches dropped from ninety eight percent in two
thousand to eighty seven percent and twenty ten. So maybe
not as significant as basketball as the dip the basketball seeing,
but still some of these coaches that ESPN talked to
were concerned, like, Hey, we don't want to you know,
(23:52):
it's not that we hate men, we just don't want
to lose coaching opportunities.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
And Nicole Lavoy, who's the associate director of the Tuckerson
for Research on Girls and Women in Sports, has looked
into this issue of, you know, the female coaching role
model a lot, and she talks about how youth sports
are overwhelmingly coached by men. The whole thing is that
the dad's coach while the moms drive and put out
(24:17):
orange slices, and so they grow up to be recruits
that don't want a female coach. There was also a
study that we found called Working with Male Athletes the
Experience of US Female head Coaches, and they talk to
these female coaches about their experience with mentors and interestingly
found that one of the common themes was actually having
(24:37):
a negative experience with youth.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Sports with a female coach.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
And they also cited though an NCAA survey from two
thousand and nine which found that a only ten percent
of female student athletes even care to pursue coaching, and
that of that the rest of those who did not
want to pursue it, fifty three percent cided knowing a
female coach he was not happy in her role, So
(25:03):
something is clearly going on here.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Well, Matthew Mallady in September twenty twelve asked why don't
we care that there aren't any female coaches coaching men?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
For instance?
Speaker 5 (25:15):
Like, why don't Why isn't it more of a big
deal that we have so few women out there? And
he wrote that there are zero female head or assistant
coaches for the one hundred and twenty two teams playing
in the NBA, MLB, NHL, and NFL. It's basically considered impossible.
He says that only three women have ever been assistant
coaches for men's college basketball teams. That's Bernadette Mattox, Jennifer Johnston,
(25:38):
and Stephanie Ready. And he said that this whole choosing
a coach from such a narrowpool thing is a totally
flawed system, the narrowpool being only men and only certain men.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, it was illuminating to read the coverage of Nancy Lieberman,
who was a superstar point guard for Old Dominion, who
played professionally for both men's and women's teams before coaching
the WNBA's Detroit Shock and then became head coach of
the Texas Legends, which was a men's team in the
NBA's Development League.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
And it was this huge.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Deal because finally we have a female coach of a
professional team, even though it was a development league. But nevertheless,
all of these major media outlets are covering Nancy Lieberman
and the only thing they want to talk about is
the fact that, oh, you're a woman coaching a man's
team and talking to these athletes like, how is it being,
(26:33):
you know, being.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Coached by a woman? How can you handle that?
Speaker 4 (26:36):
And most of the time the responses were just along
the lines of she's coach.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
What I mean, she calls the plays and we run them.
What else do you want to know?
Speaker 5 (26:46):
Yeah, And there was one interview, you know what, I'm
not even sure if it was about Nancy Lieberman or
just another female coach, maybe even on the high school side,
but one of the players said, yeah, she's tiny, but
when she's mad, she's seven feet tall. Yeah, you know, like,
it's not an issue of she has a vagina. I'm
not going to listen to her. It's she's the coach,
she's the authority figure. She's telling us what to do.
(27:08):
We're the players.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
We listen to her, and I can't imagine that in
locker room situations, there might be different dynamics of a
woman sitting there and talking to a group of guys
versus a guy sitting there talking to a group of women.
But I wonder why that is why we are more
comfortable with men leading a group of women on the
field than we are with a woman leading a group
(27:30):
of men on.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
The field or the court. I should say, as we're
speaking about basketball.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Specifically, maybe it's just what we're used to seeing. Yeah,
I mean, what we are accustomed to seeing on the television.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Yeah, I mean it almost makes you wish that Pat
Summit had, you know, coach the UT men's team instead
of the women's team. But then again, we don't want
to take away good coaches from women's athletics. And I
think that is one of the main reasons why she
is so dedicated to that women's team, because she came
up through the ranks and knew firsthand what it was
(28:04):
like to be marginalized as a female athlete. And speaking
of marginalization, because this is kind of a downer topic,
let's talk about wages.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
Oh yeah, salary, let's get into that now.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
The twenty eleven coaches compensation four schools and for the
previous five NCUBA women's basketball tournaments were pretty handsome. You know,
Pat Summit makes a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
That year.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
According to stats published by USA Today, she brought in
one point nine million dollars.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I want to become a women's basketball coach.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
If you like, just throw the ball at the net.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
You got it.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
Go ladies, hooray.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
But just for contrast, Pat Summitt again, winning is coach.
But just for contrast, again, Pat Summit winning as coach
in the nc doublea one point nine million dollars. Her
men's coach counterpart at the University of Tennessee brought in
one point five million dollars a little bit less. But
(29:07):
if we go to the top earner for men's teams
over Louisville with Rick Patino, that dude brought home eight
point nine million dollars.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
You can buy some fancy new shoes with that.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Basketball is almost as lucrative as podcasting. Carolina.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
Yeah, I mean, sum It's compensation package is definitely unusual
for women coaches. But from twenty three to twenty ten,
let's get some perspective, the average salary for the coach
of an NCAA Division one men's team in any sport
increased by sixty seven percent to two hundred and sixty
seven thousand ish. The average salary for the coach of
a women's team increased only by sixteen percent in that time,
(29:49):
to ninety eight thousand.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
And I'm sure that you know people would say, hey,
why are you complaining about a ninety eight thousand dollars
average salary? But when you look at this breakdown of
these major pay gaps for male and female coaches, you
know it's I think it speaks to something larger.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
Yeah, And then for Division one basketball in particular, the
median salary for coaches of a men's team in twenty
ten was nearly twice that of coaches for women's team,
and over the past four years, the median pay of
men's head coaches increased by forty percent compared with twenty
eight percent for women's coaches. So yes, you could argue, okay,
if you're looking at all Division one sports into in
(30:32):
one package, men could be making more because they're coaching
more of the high profile sports like football, basketball. Women
might be teacher coaching more of the low profile sports. Okay,
So like softball or something. Yeah, but yeah, I mean
when you look at the actual basketball stats, women coaches
just are not getting the same increases in salary that
(30:52):
men are.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
And you would say, well, that's not right, because under
the Equal Pay Act of nineteen sixty three, the pay
for male basketball coach versus a female basketball coach should
be comparable. But those differences emerge from third party money.
For instance, you know, Louisville's Rick Patino brings in a
(31:15):
bulk of that eight point nine million dollars, not so
much from coaching, but on supplements, talent fees, appearance fees,
endorsement agreements with apparel companies, summer camp, summer campus are
a huge way that coaches make cash, and those kinds
of opportunities are simply not there as much for female coaches.
Speaker 5 (31:40):
And there was an interesting thing pointed out. The writer
talk to some lawyers who deal with contracts and said
that athletic directors usually assume that women's players will be
better students, so the academic clauses often are not included
for these coaches, and those academic clauses being you know,
if your player, if your student athletes do really well
(32:02):
in school, you'll make a bit of a bonus. They're like,
women are already smart. Yeah, so we're just gonna give
you less money.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
For the women's teams, the academic clause is not there,
But for the guys teams, it's like high five, all
your players made good grades.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Good for you.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
But there's an interesting way too that men's coaches for
women's teams can actually offer a cost savings to athletic
departments because the Equal Pay Act focuses on gender based discrimination.
So the New York Times offered the example of Kentucky's
coach of the men's basketball team earning a one hundred
(32:41):
thousand dollars bonus when his team made Round sixteen of
the NCAA Tournament, but the Wildcats women's coach received a
forty thousand dollars bonus for doing the exact same thing.
But because both coaches were dudes, no problem under the
Equal Pay Act. So maybe some schools are actively courting
(33:02):
more male coaches because they just don't have to deal
with all of the equal pay.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Kind of stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Yeah. The fact of the matter is about a third
of women's teams were profitable as of twenty ten, according
to the Department of Education, and even then the annual
net profit was on average less than sixteen thousand dollars,
and those were usually among smaller schools. So sure, I mean,
(33:30):
from a financial standpoint, investing a lot in female coaches.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
When you're not getting much out of those teams money.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Wise, you might not be as motivated to really invest
a lot of a lot of resources in that.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
Yeah, but there's a lot of talent out there, And
I mean Bleacher Report is one of the sources that
did recognize a lot of coaches of women's teams, not
just female coaches of women's teams, but male coaches also.
I mean they there were a lot of names among
their fifty best college basketball coaches, and I won't list
all of them, but of course Pat Summits on there,
Tara van Derveer from Stanford, Vivian Stringer from Rutgers, and
(34:12):
then people like Andy Landers from Uga who coaches the
Lady Dogs. There is room, there is more room for
women to coach sports. But it's I mean, is it
when is it going to change, Kristin?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
When are we going to be like, yes.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
We want more women role models. Is it just going
to become a cycle of terrible, terrible things where we
have few women's coaches, so girls grow up not having
women's coaches, and then they only want men for coaches.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
I mean, I feel like the problem is so multifaceted
and largely money driven. Yeah that I don't think that
not to be a cynic, I don't think that we
are going to see many major changes anytime soon at all,
because bottom line, I think the fact that only a
third of women's teams, and I think that is across
(35:03):
sports are even profitable is an argument against investing more
resources in women's sports. And I think socially, you know,
we don't value women's athletics as much as we value
men's period.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Think about the NBA versus the w NBA, which.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
How many jokes have you heard about watching women play basketball? Yeah,
insert punchline. And I think that when I would like,
you know, listeners as we watch the NC DOUBLEA tournament
and stuff too, I don't know, consider all of the
attention that those men's teams get versus the women who
(35:40):
are in you know, their own NC DOUBLEA tournament. For instance,
today on the news, I heard that, you know, President
Obama released his brackets for the NC Double a team.
I think he's pulling for Indiana to win everything.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
The president's talking about it.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Yeah, you know, no one's doing the same thing for
the women's teams, and if they were too, it would
be it would probably be some kind of a joke,
you know. But it's worth thinking about from from the
coaching downward, and also those recruiting tactics, you know, the
negative assumptions, and also why would it be a bad
(36:18):
thing if your coach is a lesbian?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
All that kind of stuff that's.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Wrapped up into something we might not think about all
that much. A because we don't see it, because we
don't see women coaching all that much. And you know,
it's really only this one time of year when we're
even paying all that much attention to basketball. Maybe that's
just me not an avid basketballer. Yeah, I don't know,
what do you think?
Speaker 5 (36:43):
Yeah, I think we're gonna be waiting a while, Yeah,
before we see a lot more women's coaches. And you know,
maybe we're gonna be waiting even longer than I think,
because obviously the numbers are on the down swing.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Yeah, but it's definitely it's worth a conversation of you know,
why why are we so not okay with seeing women coaching,
especially women coaching men's teams.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
They're here and there, but they're such anominally well yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:07):
I mean, there are plenty of men's coaches, male men's
coaches who maybe weren't good enough to play in college,
but they're still excellent coaches because they have a head
for the game. Yeah, they've studied, you know, they love
the game. They're great coaches. So you know, that's another argument,
like if a woman who didn't necessarily play at a
big school play basketball at a big school in college,
(37:30):
she can still coach women or men if she studies,
is passionate about the game, you know.
Speaker 4 (37:35):
I mean, But like you said, though, I mean that
all roots back to that finding out of ums Amherst
nep for T. D. Walker's study that female coaches inherently
have that higher burden of proof to meet.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah, so we could obviously just go on and on and.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
So if we could just clone Pat Summit, that's the answer.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Yes, But in the meantime, basketball players out there, coaches,
anyone interested in sports, or if you just want to send.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Us your bracket, let us know your I won't know
what to do with it.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
Caroline, let's talk a little bit about snailmail and stamps
dot com.
Speaker 5 (38:26):
So something I never knew, Kristen is that postage meter
companies used to have the monopoly on printing postage. They
could charge you an arm and a leg to print
postage from your own office. But those days are over.
Now you can use stamps dot com. And with stamps
dot com you get all the benefits of that postage meter,
but at a fraction of the cost. All you need
(38:49):
is your computer, your printer, and stamps dot Com to
get official US postage.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
At stamps dot com, you can get exact postage for
any letter or package in any class of mail. And
better yet, right now, you can use the promo code
stuff for a special offer. It is a no risk
trial that includes a one hundred and ten dollars bonus
offer with a digital scale and up to fifty five
dollars of free postage for stuff. Mom never told you listeners,
(39:20):
so don't wait. Go to samps dot com before you
do anything else. Click on the microphone at the top
of the homepage and type in stuff.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
That's stamps dot com. Enter stuff. And speaking of letters,
I have one here from Emily, She says, while listening
to your podcast on animal testing, my opinion on animal
testing really changed. I have an albino labrat as a pet.
Long story short, he needed a home before he was
fed to a snake, and I realized I just couldn't
(39:51):
deal with the thought of my sweet little friend being
in pain just for a product that might not even
hit the human market. Ever, I wish products would not
contain dangerous enough ingredients that require animal testing to make
sure the product is safe for human use. After so
many years of scientific research, we know what is and
isn't toxic. While I understand there will always be animal
testing for medical purposes to save human lives, I hope
(40:14):
animal testing will decrease in the cosmetic industry. These little
fellows have feelings too, and I've made a great friend
with a rat bread to be food slash a lab test.
So thank you, Emily. And I am just picturing your
little friend wearing a teeny tiny mouse hat.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Well, I've got one here from a lease about that
same episode on animal research, and she writes it got
me a little riled. I am a MD PhD student
studying molecular genetics and I use mice in my research
for my PhD, and of course I listened to this
most recent podcast while working in my lab. I know
(40:54):
most of the podcast was about commercial testing on animals,
but you did seem to conflate animal research and animal
testing on occasion. I must confess I don't know what
the rules are for animal testing of commercial products, or
even if there are any rules, which is a scary thought. However,
animals used in medical school research are very tightly controlled.
Our university receives National Institutes of Health funds, so all
(41:17):
investigators at the school have to comply with NIH animal
testing guidelines. Everyone who works with lab animals has to
go through training, and there are very strict rules for
how you can operate on or kill an animal. For example,
animals can only be euthanized using methods proven to cause
the animal minimal suffering, and if the surgery is done
on the animal, even the dosing of anesthetics is regulated. Also,
(41:39):
when you apply to the NIH for funding, you have
to estimate the number of animals that you use and
justify why you can't use fewer than that number. I
know this system isn't perfect and it took me a
long time to come to terms with using animals in
my research, but for now it's what we've got. So
thanks alast Into everyone who has written into Mom's Stuff
at Discovery dot com. You can also find us on
(42:02):
Facebook there leave us a note if you'd like. You
can follow us on Twitter as well at moms Stuff
Podcasts and on Tumblr at stuff Moomnever Told You dot
tumblr dot com. And if you would like to learn
more about basketball and other sports, you can find all
of the rules at houstuffworks dot com.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit
houstuffworks dot com.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
Will Never Told You Production. I heart are you, And
today we are bringing back an episode that Kristen and
Caroline did about women coaching women's basketball and why are
(00:27):
there so many women coaches? Now this is a bit
of an older episode and things have changed, but we
talked about this in our recent Olympic episode. We did
that it's still the gender difference is still there. I
noticed it when I was watching the Olympics. I have
to say a lot of the stuff that I mentioned
(00:48):
in my recent Monday mini about the Olympics, they were
women coaches for the US anyway, But it is still
it's still an issue. I think we should maybe come
back and do like a a full blown revisit.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I would love to get some updated.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Right because we have people going into the NFL. People
are going into like different actually like male dominated sports
or male only sports NFL yeah and all that, and
there are women coaches coming through finally, and referees. I
think we need to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yes, I told you, I've been wanting to talk about
referees for a while. Mm hmm. Well, in the meantime,
please enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from HowStuffWorks dot Com.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline,
and we are coming at you in the midst of
March madness, even though it's April.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Yeah, basketball madness.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
NCAA Final Four is about to happen here in the
men's tournament at least is happening in Atlanta, right.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
It's supposed to bring something like seventy million dollars worth
of revenue to the city, and thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
And two hundred million people.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
Who Lamarta is gonna be a little cramped, yeah, and
the streets.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Ah, And for this podcast, we're gonna gripe about traffic
in Atlanta, just kidding. We're gonna talk about basketball, but
we're not talking about the players. We're talking about the
coaches because in honor of the NCAA basketball tournament, we
thought it would be worthwhile looking at women's basketball coaches,
(02:34):
which might sound like a narrow topic, but there is
a lot in here to discuss.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Yeah, I mean, there just aren't as many as perhaps
there should be. And something we'll get into is that. Okay,
so you've got the men's men's basketball, it's all coached
by men. Yeah, and you've got the women's basketball and
it's coached by some women, but a lot of men too.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
But a lot of men.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Yeah. We're gonna get into how title actually corresponded with
fewer women coaching female basketball teams and other factors at play.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Huh pun in all of this, But first, let's talk about.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
The winningest basketball coach in the NCAA, Pat Summitt.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
Yeah. Pat Summitt was actually a basketball player at University
of Tennessee Martin when Title nine was introduced, so she
was kind of in the thick of it. She's now
the head coach emeritus of Tennessee women's basketball team. Thirty
eight years as a head coach, and she stepped down
because she made the very sad announcement that she has Alzheimer's.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Yeah, and she's coming out with a new memoir. I
believe the title is Summit Up. And her story is
pretty incredible. Like you said, Caroline, she was coming up
when Title nine was introduced, and before that. She talks
about how the women's athletic budget at UT Martin when
she got there was about five hundred dollars to be
distributed among volleyball, basketball, and tennis, and after the passage
(04:06):
of Title nine in nineteen seventy two, those budgets increased,
but it wasn't exactly smooth sailing, as we'll talk about
in more detail, but for a little more about Pat Summit.
She ended up playing in the first women's Olympic team
to play basketball, and a little bit more though about
(04:28):
Pat's Summit. Some highlights from her career were not only
did she, you know, play with U Team Martin, but
she also played in the nineteen seventy six Summer Olympic
Games in Montreal because for the first time they had
a women's basketball team, and Summit's team brought home the silver.
And then she went on to coach the team in
(04:50):
the nineteen eighty four Olympics in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (04:54):
Yeah, she has a really interesting perspective as far as
you know, having been a coach all this time, but
also coming up during the whole Title nine passage and everything.
In her new book, she says that three events in
nineteen seventy two changed everything, and that includes that a
group of dedicated women administrators formed the Association of Intercollegiate
Athletics for Women because she says the NCAA didn't yet
(05:16):
care enough about females to bother with us. She also
says that it was very important the announcement that women's
basketball would be an Olympics sport for the first time
at those nineteen seventy six Summer Olympics, and of course
the passing of Title nine.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Yeah, and she talks about how those developments made winning
available to women. For instance, with that establishment, Caroline that
you mentioned of the Association of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
The title is a bit of a mouthful.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
They organized the first championship for women's basketball teams, which
was a really important stepping stone to legitimize the sport
for women. It also made competition more socially acceptable with
Title nine, and it allowed women to play a full
court basketball game.
Speaker 5 (06:04):
Well, thank god. I mean, I'm glad that they reached
the point where they're like, good, it won't bounce your
uterus around too much if you run up and down
a full court.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Right, Because this reminds me of our episode on women
running marathon, and even when Summit was going to those
Summer Olympics in nineteen seventy six in Montreal, it was
still a crazy idea for.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
A woman to run that long of a distance.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
So this was the kind of mindset that was going
on when Title nine was introduced. And Pat Summit is
going to come up a few more times in this
podcast because since she is the winningest coach in NC
Double A and the highest paid female coach in the
NC DOUBLEA, she's sort of held, as you know, the
(06:52):
pillar of female coaches. I'd say, not just in basketball,
but pretty much in all collegiate sports because she made
such an incredible name.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
For herself for sure.
Speaker 6 (07:03):
But first, Caroline, speaking of women being allowed to play
full court basketball and bouncing our uteruses around, let's take
a brief historical look at basketball for women.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
Yeah. Well, before it was for women, it was only
for men, obviously, as is everything. Sorry that I didn't
mean that to sound so better.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Except for corsets. Yeah, those have always just been for women.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
Yeah, high heels though, No, that's true for men. Yeah, anyway,
I started it. So, Yeah, Rosemary Scain wrote a very
comprehensive book titled Very Simply Women College Basketball Coaches.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I bet you can guess what that's about.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
But so in eighteen ninety one, basketball was designed for
male athletes who needed a winter sport because God forbid
they not play sports for a minute. So the first
public game was in March eighteen ninety two, but it
was not that long after that women started playing. Three
months after that first public men's game. In March eighteen
ninety two, Senda Berenson, Smith College's director of physical training,
(08:07):
introduced the game to women, and the first women's game
was played March twenty second, eighteen ninety three at Smith.
And in case you're wondering at the score, Kristen Sophomore's five,
freshman four.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, but that.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Game was just between Smith's students. The first intercollegiate women's
game happened between Berkeley and Stanford.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Berkeley alumni out there. You won? Oh no, you lost?
Speaker 5 (08:34):
Christin really wanted you to.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Win, but trivia alert.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Stanford's Martha Clark made the very first basket in women's
intercollegiate history, and she did so while wearing.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
A woolen uniform.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
That covered everything except for the face, neck, and hands.
As were you know the uniforms that all the women
would be wearing.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
I noticed you did not include feet in that list.
Were they footy? Uniform.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
The uniform, I think they were allowed to expose their
feet in order to put them into shoes.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
Well, you know, it is scandalous to have women running
and playing sports, even in full body footy uniforms. The
day of that game, only two men were allowed to watch,
and they were a pell physical education director and an instructor.
Women guarded the windows of the auditorium with sticks to
keep men from sneaking a peak and scain rights. Even
(09:30):
letting women watch was apparently considered dangerous since basketball was
invented form men. Physicians who believed women were delicate said
women would become hysterical watching other women play basketball.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Oh my, oh my. Although I do sometimes become hysterical
watching sporting events.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
But probably not for the reason that they think.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
This is true.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
So it takes a little while, though, for them to
develop rules for women's basketball. In eighteen ninety four, the
first women's rules appeared, but they weren't widely circulated. Then.
In June eighteen ninety nine, Senda Bearnson, who was that
director of physical training at Smith College, worked with other
East Coast physical ed teachers to develop women's rules at
(10:14):
the Conference on Physical Training and so in October of
nineteen oh one, finally a good year. Yes, Spalding Sporting
Goods published her rules as the official rules for women's basketball.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
But those rules.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Emphasize maintaining ladylike behavior of course, no snatching of the
ball for instance. But Benson did favor physical activity. She said, quote,
it's all the more to develop health and endurance if
they desire to become candidates for equal wages. So a
little bit of feminism tossed in there as well. Basketball
playing basketball can help you earn equal wages with men.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
It can close the gender gap.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Unfortunately, send to Bearnson, those predictions were not not really
uh come to fruition.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
Yeah, well, Clelia Duelle Mosher, I'm sorry if I'm really
sorry if I just butchered her name. She was a
physician background this time in the Victorian era, and she
agreed with Bearnson as far as like, let women have
physical activity. So no, she had nothing to do with
actual basketball. But it was during this time that she
was of the same school of thought that women actually
(11:23):
needed to have some physical activity, and she wanted to
prove that women were not inferior to men and that
the frailties attributed to sex were really just the effects
of binding garments like those corsets, insufficient exercise and mental conditioning.
So get those women onto the court playing sports and
maybe one day will be equal.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Yeah, Because I mean as much as we think about
how exercise is something that we today can sitter part of,
you know, a well balanced life where you're supposed to
do exercise, what five days a week for sixty minutes
at a time, I'm pulling that out of the air.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
You're supposed to do it a lot.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
But when all of this was going on, it was
socially unacceptable for women to be moving around like that.
This was also the time when things like bicycles were
coming into vogue, and it was a big deal for
women to ride bicycles because it rumors, yes, it would
be straddling things.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
How would you do that.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
You'd have to wear maybe something like a Bloomer invented
by Amelia Bloomer, who was an early feminist. You know,
things that we take for granted were revolutionary at the time,
like basketball.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
But let's talk about a.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Few more of the more modern pioneers of women's basketball,
such as Carol Eckman, who is considered the mother of
collegiate women's basketball national championships. She's best known for establishing
the first national invitational women's interco li legiate basketball tournament
in nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
Yeah, and then we have Teresa Shank Grantz, who is
the former head coach of the women's basketball program at
the University of Illinois, Rutgers University, and Saint Joseph. She's
a member of the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame and
was the Olympic head coach in nineteen ninety two and
that year her team captured the bronze medal in Barcelona.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
And Billy Moore, for some more trivia, was the first
coach in women's basketball history to lead teams from two
different schools to national championships. In those schools were California
State Fullerton and UCLA. So we are moving into the
modern era, and like we said in nineteen seventy two,
(13:45):
Title nine happens. So with Title nine, schools that are
receiving this federal funding have to equally distribute it for
men's and women's athletics. But what we want to look
at is how Title nine impacted not so much the
players and the women who like Pat Summitt benefited from
(14:09):
Title nine by having more resources to be able to
get out on the court or get out on the
field and play. But how again, for people like Pat Summitt,
once their time was up playing, whether or not coaching
would be more open to them as a lucrative occupation.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Right, Well, it definitely influenced how people saw women's sports,
and not just making it more socially acceptable, but also
making it, yeah, like you said, more lucrative because all
of a sudden, all this money's flowing in, and now
maybe men who wouldn't have considered coaching women's teams are like, huh,
there's more in it for me now.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
So yeah, speaking of men being interested in coaching women's teams,
a curious thing happens when Title nine is passed. In
nineteen seventy two, women coached more than ninety percent of
women's teams, but in such a short amount of time,
by nineteen seventy eight, that number had dropped to fifty
(15:09):
eight point two percent, and as of twenty ten, it
was down to forty two point nine percent. So today
women coach fewer than half of women's college teams.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
Yeah, and since two thousand NCAA programs have added one thousand,
seven hundred and seventy four women's head coaching jobs. Men
have filled over twelve hundred of those openings. And you know,
only about three percent of men's teams are coached by women.
And that's a whole other issue, like why aren't women
coaching men's teams either?
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Yeah, and that percentage, the percentage of women coaching men's
teams has not changed at all since Title nine. The
only thing that has dropped is the percentage of women
coaching other women. And a lot of these statistics are
coming from early comprehensive Our to Call from ESPN magazine
written by Kate Fagan and Luke Cipher's on which they're
(16:06):
looking into this gender gap in women coaching, specifically women's teams,
because you would assume, oh, well, women's sports teams, you
can have a women's a female coach, But no, because,
like you said, Caroline, the increased money coming into women's
sports simply made it a more desirable option for men's
(16:29):
coaches who might not have been as qualified right as
potential women's coaches.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
Well, so they looked into some of the reasons as
for like why there aren't as many women coaching teams,
and a lot of it has to do with, Okay,
there's a small pool of female candidates, there's a lack
of second chances for female coaches. A lot of women
if they screw up, it's just kind of it's not
the same revolving door type of situation that men have,
(16:55):
like they can just go to a different team. A
lot of the times, if women are fired or lose
their coaching, that's it for them. A lack of female mentors,
women just not applying for these jobs retaliation for Title
nine complaints. But a lot of it also has to
do with sexism and homophobia. Yeah, there's this habit of
women's basketball coaches hiring male assistants to be kind of
(17:18):
that quote unquote straight presence, because there's this whole issue
in recruiting, of negative recruiting, of saying, you know, we're
a family friendly program, but over there, you know that
female coach at that school, you know, we're not so sure.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Yeah, because the stereotype is is that female sports coaches
are lesbians, and so the type of homophobic recruiting that
goes on is referred to as family friendly recruitment, saying
things like to a new recruit like, oh, you know,
we're a very family oriented environment, with a wink and
(17:56):
a nudge to the parents saying, don't worry your daughter
won't be coached by a lesbian and possibly corrupted because
of this. And again, ESPN magazine covered this in February
twenty eleven in and among fifty five percent of the
college players that ESPN spoke to, they said that sexual
(18:18):
orientation was quote an underlying topic of conversation with college
recruiters fifty five percent. So the homophobia is a pretty
rampant thing, and it's also a deterrent for would be
coaches who might be gay, who are like, you know what,
I don't want to have to live a closeted professional
(18:41):
life and also be you know, slurred for my for
my lifestyle.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
Yeah, that same ESPN article talked about how these homophobic
negative recruiting policies are not policies but practices are pretty
unique to the women's game. You don't have a a
male recruit coming up from high school, coming up the
ranks and them talking about, you know, issues of family friendliness.
But it's a general open secret as far as like
(19:10):
the code words of family friendly.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
For instance, University of Tennessee and University of Connecticut don't
play each other anymore, allegedly due to Yukon's anti gay
recruitment against UT, claiming that, oh Pat.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Summit is a lesbian and so you don't want to
send your kids there.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Apparently it was a huge rivalry and the game used
to be a giant draw until finally Summit and University
of Tennessee where like, you know, we're not even gonna
play this game.
Speaker 5 (19:37):
Well, so now that's less money coming into a women's game, right.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Which you know, women's sports can use as much money
as possible, which we'll get into a little bit later.
But in nineteen eighty two ESPN. But ESPN also talks
about how in nineteen eighty two there was this homophobia
mongering case of Pam Parsons, who resigned as coach of
South Carolina after allegations that she had a relationship with one.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Of her basketball players.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
And they say that since that incident, that kind of
anti gay recruitment has been almost a common.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Part of the process, which is unfortunate.
Speaker 5 (20:18):
Yeah, so common that Portland State's Sherry Mural is the
only out lesbian in Division one women's basketball.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Yeah, and we should say too that it's not just
a thing of the whole family friendly thing. It's not
just a wink and a nudge to you know, homophobic sentiments.
But it's also a thing a wink in a nudge saying, oh,
this isn't a black program either, we are you know,
everything will be safe for your child.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
There's a lot, there's a dirty underbelly to this that's
going on.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
So yeah, we mentioned how, you know, with all with
the influx of funds after the passage of Title nine,
coaching a women's basketball game became our a team, I'm sorry,
became more attractive to male coaches. And this brings us
to what we call a glass wall phenomenon where men
can coach women while women are shut out of the
(21:06):
men's game. So you know, they can see the jobs
through the glass wall, but they can't get there. And
along these same lines, a really interesting survey by Nefert D. Walker,
who is a UMAs Amherst professor and former Division one
basketball player. She talked to male coaches about, you know,
would you hire a woman, would you want to work
(21:27):
with a female coach? She found out that breaking that
institutional norm of hiring a woman as a coach really
required an exceptional candidate, like women have a much higher
burden of proof to use a legal term. Because they
all cited Pat Summit. Yeah, they were all like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
you've got Pat Summit. I mean she's great. I'd totally
(21:47):
work with her.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
I was like, of course, you would hire the winningest
coach in the NC double A. But there does seem
to be sometimes a disconnect maybe between what male athletic
directors or coaches think is going on. It's almost like
a blind sexism that might be happening to what female
(22:08):
coaches or would be coaches are feeling. There was a
study that took place in the nineteen eighties which found
that male athletic directors believed that female coaches left their
schools for just individual.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Reasons like going to spend more time with family or.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
What have you, whereas the female coaches who left had
actually jumped ship due to structural barriers like the glasswall phenomenon,
like the kind of homophobia that is still happening so
often today, and it is a problem because it doesn't
seem to be there, doesn't seem to be a ton
of communication at least between these.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
You know, the men and women in athletics.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
It's just kind of a thing where the female basketball
players don't see many female coaches, they don't have many models,
and they also know of women who are coaching.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
In the rare positions where they are coaching or our.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Assistants, and they really don't like the jobs all that
much and so they choose other paths.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
Right, Yeah, that's definitely a cycle. You see fewer coaches,
you have fewer role models, you might not choose that path,
and then you have no female coaches anymore. And it's
interesting that other Division one sports who which are traditionally
coached by women, are starting to see a decline also
in female coaches, like Division one softball female coaches are
(23:32):
down from seventy four point eight percent in two thousand
to sixty percent and twenty ten, and Division one field
hockey female coaches dropped from ninety eight percent in two
thousand to eighty seven percent and twenty ten. So maybe
not as significant as basketball as the dip the basketball seeing,
but still some of these coaches that ESPN talked to
were concerned, like, Hey, we don't want to you know,
(23:52):
it's not that we hate men, we just don't want
to lose coaching opportunities.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
And Nicole Lavoy, who's the associate director of the Tuckerson
for Research on Girls and Women in Sports, has looked
into this issue of, you know, the female coaching role
model a lot, and she talks about how youth sports
are overwhelmingly coached by men. The whole thing is that
the dad's coach while the moms drive and put out
(24:17):
orange slices, and so they grow up to be recruits
that don't want a female coach. There was also a
study that we found called Working with Male Athletes the
Experience of US Female head Coaches, and they talk to
these female coaches about their experience with mentors and interestingly
found that one of the common themes was actually having
(24:37):
a negative experience with youth.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Sports with a female coach.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
And they also cited though an NCAA survey from two
thousand and nine which found that a only ten percent
of female student athletes even care to pursue coaching, and
that of that the rest of those who did not
want to pursue it, fifty three percent cided knowing a
female coach he was not happy in her role, So
(25:03):
something is clearly going on here.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Well, Matthew Mallady in September twenty twelve asked why don't
we care that there aren't any female coaches coaching men?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
For instance?
Speaker 5 (25:15):
Like, why don't Why isn't it more of a big
deal that we have so few women out there? And
he wrote that there are zero female head or assistant
coaches for the one hundred and twenty two teams playing
in the NBA, MLB, NHL, and NFL. It's basically considered impossible.
He says that only three women have ever been assistant
coaches for men's college basketball teams. That's Bernadette Mattox, Jennifer Johnston,
(25:38):
and Stephanie Ready. And he said that this whole choosing
a coach from such a narrowpool thing is a totally
flawed system, the narrowpool being only men and only certain men.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, it was illuminating to read the coverage of Nancy Lieberman,
who was a superstar point guard for Old Dominion, who
played professionally for both men's and women's teams before coaching
the WNBA's Detroit Shock and then became head coach of
the Texas Legends, which was a men's team in the
NBA's Development League.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
And it was this huge.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Deal because finally we have a female coach of a
professional team, even though it was a development league. But nevertheless,
all of these major media outlets are covering Nancy Lieberman
and the only thing they want to talk about is
the fact that, oh, you're a woman coaching a man's
team and talking to these athletes like, how is it being,
(26:33):
you know, being.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Coached by a woman? How can you handle that?
Speaker 4 (26:36):
And most of the time the responses were just along
the lines of she's coach.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
What I mean, she calls the plays and we run them.
What else do you want to know?
Speaker 5 (26:46):
Yeah, And there was one interview, you know what, I'm
not even sure if it was about Nancy Lieberman or
just another female coach, maybe even on the high school side,
but one of the players said, yeah, she's tiny, but
when she's mad, she's seven feet tall. Yeah, you know, like,
it's not an issue of she has a vagina. I'm
not going to listen to her. It's she's the coach,
she's the authority figure. She's telling us what to do.
(27:08):
We're the players.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
We listen to her, and I can't imagine that in
locker room situations, there might be different dynamics of a
woman sitting there and talking to a group of guys
versus a guy sitting there talking to a group of women.
But I wonder why that is why we are more
comfortable with men leading a group of women on the
field than we are with a woman leading a group
(27:30):
of men on.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
The field or the court. I should say, as we're
speaking about basketball.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Specifically, maybe it's just what we're used to seeing. Yeah,
I mean, what we are accustomed to seeing on the television.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Yeah, I mean it almost makes you wish that Pat
Summit had, you know, coach the UT men's team instead
of the women's team. But then again, we don't want
to take away good coaches from women's athletics. And I
think that is one of the main reasons why she
is so dedicated to that women's team, because she came
up through the ranks and knew firsthand what it was
(28:04):
like to be marginalized as a female athlete. And speaking
of marginalization, because this is kind of a downer topic,
let's talk about wages.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
Oh yeah, salary, let's get into that now.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
The twenty eleven coaches compensation four schools and for the
previous five NCUBA women's basketball tournaments were pretty handsome. You know,
Pat Summit makes a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
That year.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
According to stats published by USA Today, she brought in
one point nine million dollars.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I want to become a women's basketball coach.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
If you like, just throw the ball at the net.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
You got it.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
Go ladies, hooray.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
But just for contrast, Pat Summitt again, winning is coach.
But just for contrast, again, Pat Summit winning as coach
in the nc doublea one point nine million dollars. Her
men's coach counterpart at the University of Tennessee brought in
one point five million dollars a little bit less. But
(29:07):
if we go to the top earner for men's teams
over Louisville with Rick Patino, that dude brought home eight
point nine million dollars.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
You can buy some fancy new shoes with that.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Basketball is almost as lucrative as podcasting. Carolina.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
Yeah, I mean, sum It's compensation package is definitely unusual
for women coaches. But from twenty three to twenty ten,
let's get some perspective, the average salary for the coach
of an NCAA Division one men's team in any sport
increased by sixty seven percent to two hundred and sixty
seven thousand ish. The average salary for the coach of
a women's team increased only by sixteen percent in that time,
(29:49):
to ninety eight thousand.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
And I'm sure that you know people would say, hey,
why are you complaining about a ninety eight thousand dollars
average salary? But when you look at this breakdown of
these major pay gaps for male and female coaches, you
know it's I think it speaks to something larger.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
Yeah, And then for Division one basketball in particular, the
median salary for coaches of a men's team in twenty
ten was nearly twice that of coaches for women's team,
and over the past four years, the median pay of
men's head coaches increased by forty percent compared with twenty
eight percent for women's coaches. So yes, you could argue, okay,
if you're looking at all Division one sports into in
(30:32):
one package, men could be making more because they're coaching
more of the high profile sports like football, basketball. Women
might be teacher coaching more of the low profile sports. Okay,
So like softball or something. Yeah, but yeah, I mean
when you look at the actual basketball stats, women coaches
just are not getting the same increases in salary that
(30:52):
men are.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
And you would say, well, that's not right, because under
the Equal Pay Act of nineteen sixty three, the pay
for male basketball coach versus a female basketball coach should
be comparable. But those differences emerge from third party money.
For instance, you know, Louisville's Rick Patino brings in a
(31:15):
bulk of that eight point nine million dollars, not so
much from coaching, but on supplements, talent fees, appearance fees,
endorsement agreements with apparel companies, summer camp, summer campus are
a huge way that coaches make cash, and those kinds
of opportunities are simply not there as much for female coaches.
Speaker 5 (31:40):
And there was an interesting thing pointed out. The writer
talk to some lawyers who deal with contracts and said
that athletic directors usually assume that women's players will be
better students, so the academic clauses often are not included
for these coaches, and those academic clauses being you know,
if your player, if your student athletes do really well
(32:02):
in school, you'll make a bit of a bonus. They're like,
women are already smart. Yeah, so we're just gonna give
you less money.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
For the women's teams, the academic clause is not there,
But for the guys teams, it's like high five, all
your players made good grades.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Good for you.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
But there's an interesting way too that men's coaches for
women's teams can actually offer a cost savings to athletic
departments because the Equal Pay Act focuses on gender based discrimination.
So the New York Times offered the example of Kentucky's
coach of the men's basketball team earning a one hundred
(32:41):
thousand dollars bonus when his team made Round sixteen of
the NCAA Tournament, but the Wildcats women's coach received a
forty thousand dollars bonus for doing the exact same thing.
But because both coaches were dudes, no problem under the
Equal Pay Act. So maybe some schools are actively courting
(33:02):
more male coaches because they just don't have to deal
with all of the equal pay.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Kind of stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Yeah. The fact of the matter is about a third
of women's teams were profitable as of twenty ten, according
to the Department of Education, and even then the annual
net profit was on average less than sixteen thousand dollars,
and those were usually among smaller schools. So sure, I mean,
(33:30):
from a financial standpoint, investing a lot in female coaches.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
When you're not getting much out of those teams money.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Wise, you might not be as motivated to really invest
a lot of a lot of resources in that.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
Yeah, but there's a lot of talent out there, And
I mean Bleacher Report is one of the sources that
did recognize a lot of coaches of women's teams, not
just female coaches of women's teams, but male coaches also.
I mean they there were a lot of names among
their fifty best college basketball coaches, and I won't list
all of them, but of course Pat Summits on there,
Tara van Derveer from Stanford, Vivian Stringer from Rutgers, and
(34:12):
then people like Andy Landers from Uga who coaches the
Lady Dogs. There is room, there is more room for
women to coach sports. But it's I mean, is it
when is it going to change, Kristin?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
When are we going to be like, yes.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
We want more women role models. Is it just going
to become a cycle of terrible, terrible things where we
have few women's coaches, so girls grow up not having
women's coaches, and then they only want men for coaches.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
I mean, I feel like the problem is so multifaceted
and largely money driven. Yeah that I don't think that
not to be a cynic, I don't think that we
are going to see many major changes anytime soon at all,
because bottom line, I think the fact that only a
third of women's teams, and I think that is across
(35:03):
sports are even profitable is an argument against investing more
resources in women's sports. And I think socially, you know,
we don't value women's athletics as much as we value
men's period.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Think about the NBA versus the w NBA, which.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
How many jokes have you heard about watching women play basketball? Yeah,
insert punchline. And I think that when I would like,
you know, listeners as we watch the NC DOUBLEA tournament
and stuff too, I don't know, consider all of the
attention that those men's teams get versus the women who
(35:40):
are in you know, their own NC DOUBLEA tournament. For instance,
today on the news, I heard that, you know, President
Obama released his brackets for the NC Double a team.
I think he's pulling for Indiana to win everything.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
The president's talking about it.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Yeah, you know, no one's doing the same thing for
the women's teams, and if they were too, it would
be it would probably be some kind of a joke,
you know. But it's worth thinking about from from the
coaching downward, and also those recruiting tactics, you know, the
negative assumptions, and also why would it be a bad
(36:18):
thing if your coach is a lesbian?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
All that kind of stuff that's.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Wrapped up into something we might not think about all
that much. A because we don't see it, because we
don't see women coaching all that much. And you know,
it's really only this one time of year when we're
even paying all that much attention to basketball. Maybe that's
just me not an avid basketballer. Yeah, I don't know,
what do you think?
Speaker 5 (36:43):
Yeah, I think we're gonna be waiting a while, Yeah,
before we see a lot more women's coaches. And you know,
maybe we're gonna be waiting even longer than I think,
because obviously the numbers are on the down swing.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Yeah, but it's definitely it's worth a conversation of you know,
why why are we so not okay with seeing women coaching,
especially women coaching men's teams.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
They're here and there, but they're such anominally well yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:07):
I mean, there are plenty of men's coaches, male men's
coaches who maybe weren't good enough to play in college,
but they're still excellent coaches because they have a head
for the game. Yeah, they've studied, you know, they love
the game. They're great coaches. So you know, that's another argument,
like if a woman who didn't necessarily play at a
big school play basketball at a big school in college,
(37:30):
she can still coach women or men if she studies,
is passionate about the game, you know.
Speaker 4 (37:35):
I mean, But like you said, though, I mean that
all roots back to that finding out of ums Amherst
nep for T. D. Walker's study that female coaches inherently
have that higher burden of proof to meet.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah, so we could obviously just go on and on and.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
So if we could just clone Pat Summit, that's the answer.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Yes, But in the meantime, basketball players out there, coaches,
anyone interested in sports, or if you just want to send.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Us your bracket, let us know your I won't know
what to do with it.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
Caroline, let's talk a little bit about snailmail and stamps
dot com.
Speaker 5 (38:26):
So something I never knew, Kristen is that postage meter
companies used to have the monopoly on printing postage. They
could charge you an arm and a leg to print
postage from your own office. But those days are over.
Now you can use stamps dot com. And with stamps
dot com you get all the benefits of that postage meter,
but at a fraction of the cost. All you need
(38:49):
is your computer, your printer, and stamps dot Com to
get official US postage.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
At stamps dot com, you can get exact postage for
any letter or package in any class of mail. And
better yet, right now, you can use the promo code
stuff for a special offer. It is a no risk
trial that includes a one hundred and ten dollars bonus
offer with a digital scale and up to fifty five
dollars of free postage for stuff. Mom never told you listeners,
(39:20):
so don't wait. Go to samps dot com before you
do anything else. Click on the microphone at the top
of the homepage and type in stuff.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
That's stamps dot com. Enter stuff. And speaking of letters,
I have one here from Emily, She says, while listening
to your podcast on animal testing, my opinion on animal
testing really changed. I have an albino labrat as a pet.
Long story short, he needed a home before he was
fed to a snake, and I realized I just couldn't
(39:51):
deal with the thought of my sweet little friend being
in pain just for a product that might not even
hit the human market. Ever, I wish products would not
contain dangerous enough ingredients that require animal testing to make
sure the product is safe for human use. After so
many years of scientific research, we know what is and
isn't toxic. While I understand there will always be animal
testing for medical purposes to save human lives, I hope
(40:14):
animal testing will decrease in the cosmetic industry. These little
fellows have feelings too, and I've made a great friend
with a rat bread to be food slash a lab test.
So thank you, Emily. And I am just picturing your
little friend wearing a teeny tiny mouse hat.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Well, I've got one here from a lease about that
same episode on animal research, and she writes it got
me a little riled. I am a MD PhD student
studying molecular genetics and I use mice in my research
for my PhD, and of course I listened to this
most recent podcast while working in my lab. I know
(40:54):
most of the podcast was about commercial testing on animals,
but you did seem to conflate animal research and animal
testing on occasion. I must confess I don't know what
the rules are for animal testing of commercial products, or
even if there are any rules, which is a scary thought. However,
animals used in medical school research are very tightly controlled.
Our university receives National Institutes of Health funds, so all
(41:17):
investigators at the school have to comply with NIH animal
testing guidelines. Everyone who works with lab animals has to
go through training, and there are very strict rules for
how you can operate on or kill an animal. For example,
animals can only be euthanized using methods proven to cause
the animal minimal suffering, and if the surgery is done
on the animal, even the dosing of anesthetics is regulated. Also,
(41:39):
when you apply to the NIH for funding, you have
to estimate the number of animals that you use and
justify why you can't use fewer than that number. I
know this system isn't perfect and it took me a
long time to come to terms with using animals in
my research, but for now it's what we've got. So
thanks alast Into everyone who has written into Mom's Stuff
at Discovery dot com. You can also find us on
(42:02):
Facebook there leave us a note if you'd like. You
can follow us on Twitter as well at moms Stuff
Podcasts and on Tumblr at stuff Moomnever Told You dot
tumblr dot com. And if you would like to learn
more about basketball and other sports, you can find all
of the rules at houstuffworks dot com.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit
houstuffworks dot com.
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