August 31, 2024 • 44 mins
While probably not what you think of when conjuring up an image of a cult leader, women have been and are cult leaders and instrumental to propping up and running these organizations. Anney and Samantha discuss the definition of cult, what makes a cult leader, who they target for members and historical women cult leaders in this classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie Kansamantha. Welcome to stuff. I never
told you objection, but I heard you, And today we
are bringing back part one of our two part series
of women cult Beaters. Yes, because, as we've discussed in
(00:30):
recent times, we've been talking about cults a lot. I've
seen a lot of stuff about cults popping up and
getting a lot of attention on streaming a lot of
different things and stirring up conversation there, so figured why
not bring this? Why not?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Apparently we Yeah, we've I've also been talking to people
about it. One was about a cult through the Renaissance fair.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh yes, yes, but that's been kind of the fascinating
thing about all this different media about it is you're
seeing all the various ways it can manifest. Who knew,
well once we tried and apparently well, please enjoy part
(01:20):
one of this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and
Samantha and welcome to stuff. I've never told your production.
Iheartrate you. So, Samantha, are you into cult like entertainment?
(01:46):
I am so.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Actually, I don't know if you knew this. As I
studied social work at the University of Georgia, I kind
of had a secondary because I was stupid me.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I don't know why I didn't keep going with it.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I was like three or four classes away from actually
having it as another major, but religion was going to
be another major, and my focus was actually on cults
Eastern religions. But that not that they have anything the same,
they're not. But yeah, because I love the whole idea
of cults and what it like, it's background kind of
the beginnings of religion and how it started as cult
(02:20):
like and then moving on. So yeah, I love different facts.
Of course, that's the tragedies. I don't love that, but
the fascination of why people follow, who they follow, and
what they believe.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Right, Yeah, I like we talked about in past episodes.
I'm not really big into true crime and I haven't
seen a lot of the documentaries or other I haven't
listened to a lot of podcasts that have been done
about these cults, but I do. It is one of
my favorite kind of genres of horror that I find
(02:54):
really upsetting and disturbing. One of my favorite video game
series is Silent Hill, which has a big cult element.
And I love Midsommar and the other lamb but they
do freak me out. They really unsettle me. And I
was in a cult based movie.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Okay, that was not going in my head. You were
about to say something else, like, wait, what it was
in a cults? By the way, I have had friends
who were part of cults, who grew up in cults
or communes as they would call it, but they came
with a lot of trauma.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, I had. I might have told the story before
on the show. As far as I know, I don't
have any close friends or family that have been involved
in cults. But I had a group of friends who
uh wanted to see the audit process of scientology. Like
they didn't want to join obviously. Well I don't know obviously,
(03:47):
but they didn't want to join, and they made this.
They were like, we're not going to get separated, we
just want to like check it out. And they all
got separated.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I was like, yep, that's the beginning of like several
sitcom episodes that I've seen. It's not fun, but they
all get separated the first thing. They're like, oh no,
and one of them eventually buison and the rest of
them are like trying to get them out.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So many plots, so many well, who do you think
of when you think of cult leaders, like what is
the stereotypical image that comes to mind?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Course, like David Koresh is a big name in the
US as someone that we know who is a big
leader in cults. I think about actually scientology as part
of that as well. So I think I'm not necessarily
a leader. But Leah REMANI who has a show with iHeart,
I believe talking about her time as a part of
(04:38):
a scientologist group. I think about her sometimes just because
she's so loud about it and there's not too many
people who are willing to be loud about it. And
I know one of the big things about cults and
communies like that are specific to secrecy and blackmail, and
there's so many stories. Like I said, I've had friends
who are parts of them who had been.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Like they did this to me.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
They told me they had to give I had to
give all this information to them, and how they kind
of just like in a like a domestic violence situation,
they strip them of their personality, they strip them of
their identity. But yeah, I think about her too for
some reason that she pospsed me my head. Obviously, again,
not a leader, she's out and she's talking about some
of the issues within her experiences. Yeah, but I find
(05:19):
it interesting enough because it's one of the bigger, more
popular ones thanks to celebrities, right her. So yeah, those
are the ones that kind of pop into my head.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
What about you? Yeah, I mean, she's definitely a vocal
person when it comes to colts And this was researching
this episode, I was shocked at how many times a
celebrity would come up and I was like, wow, they
were in this, Okay, Yeah, but I do like, if
I just come up with the stereotypical cult leader image,
it's usually a white dude with brown hair, darker hair,
(05:53):
all bearded. Yeah, usually kind of Jesus Like yeah, honestly.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah. One of the most fascinating studies that I did,
or a book that I read and we researched and
I can't even remember his name, was a book called
The God's Chinese Son. Essentially, it was this man from
China who truly believed he was Jesus's brother and started
his own cult within China. But a little not like
(06:18):
I don't hear too many where they use Christian based
idea within like China and all that I've not.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Heard too many. Maybe it's because I haven't looked it up.
There are going to be a few we're going to
talk about in here, but yeah, and I know, like
this there's a fascination of cults in general, and like
Snel recently did that like music video where the women
were talking about how they love murder shows and then
at the end Nick Jonas comes in I think it
(06:44):
was him, and he was like, what about the cult shows? Yeah,
so we are talking about women cult leaders specifically in
this one, and we're planning on returning to discuss women
in cults at large, which we will touch on a
little bit. But yeah, we wanted to talk about some
of the ladies at the at the forefront of these cults,
(07:05):
and it turns out there's more than we thought. So
this is a two harder but yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So essentially, after the news broke out about the leader
of Love has won, which we're going to talk about
her a little bit, we came to a point We're like, wait,
how many female cult leaders are there?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And what? Wow?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Why there's so many just questions So definitely wanted to
look again. Didn't realize there were so many.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yes, And before we get into this trigger warning. We
are going to be discussing suicide, sexual abuse, violence, death, murder,
general abuse, just some not so savory things, right because
we're talking about cults. But we're not going to go
too in depth into any of that. And reminder always
remember that, yes, these are real people still dealing with
(07:52):
the fallout in many cases of what we're talking about,
and like in our Serial Killers episode, the history can
be a bit exaggerated and hard to pin down, but
we did our best, right. Yeah, So all right, let's
do some basics here before we get into some of
the women leaders. After the Manson family shocked the public
with the murders, cults became a big source of anxiety
(08:14):
in the United States, and anxiety that lasted from the
late nineteen sixties until the nineteen nineties, spurred on by
media coverage. But what exactly is a cult? Well, it
turns out that is a very hard definition to have
been down. Nobody wants to be too precise, it seems
from a Pen Today article, cult is a term that
(08:36):
doesn't refer to a religion at all, but is applied
to a social movement. People have intuitive feelings about how
the word cults should be used, even when an organization
or movement meets the criteria of a new religion. Take
for example, Scientilogy and Mormonism. Both were new religious movements
that have evolved into a general understanding of definition of
a religion. However, according to Pew Research, non Mormons in
(08:58):
the US are more likely to label Mormonism as a cult.
Scientology and Mormonism have outlived their charismatic leaders and side
note from me, the charismatic leader bit is really key
in this whole thing, The article continues. They have openly
published their beliefs as scripture. Both religions seek truth by
offering its followers a roadmap for their place in the universe,
(09:20):
along with a moral code. Those who accept the beliefs
and rituals are members of their religion, but many outside
consider the movement and its followers to be a cult.
And then it goes on to quote linguistics professor Robin Clark,
the word cult originally designates a practice of religious veneration
and the religious system based around such veneration, for example,
the cults of Our Lady of Godalupe. However, the word
(09:42):
was co opted in the first half of the twentieth
century by sociology and has come to denote a social
group with socially deviant beliefs and practices like a UFO cult.
And there's been a lot of hypocrisy and suspicion when
it comes to Eastern religions and anything affiliated with them
in the US, especially when they've become successful. Basically, anything
(10:03):
that's not Christianity couldn't get caught up in this whole
cult conversation. And yeah, that whole idea. There have been
a lot of arguments about a new religion sort of
if it doesn't fit into this Christianity framework being called
a cult. And cults can't exist in multiple numbers of ways, religious, commercial, familial,
(10:25):
just to name a few. And yeah, the typically that
charismatic leader is really really key and some of the
things we're going to talk about like maybe was a
cult at one time and then evolved out of it
or just depending on who the leader is, right, which
actually has been the source of conversation around trump Ism.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Right. And again, this is why we wanted to look
at the female leaders because it is so centered around
the leaders these different groups. It's fascinating to see people
following women in general. So to have the charisma, Yeah,
it's typically understated, which is probably why I didn't know
as many of these names as I do of male leaders.
(11:08):
But that's a whole different thing. So let's talk about
some numbers. So, according to Tennessee State University, there are
thousands of cults in America, and some harless, some dangerous.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Not surprising.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
They go on to define cult as a group or
movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic
leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has
the answers to all of life's questions and offers a
special solution to be gained only by following the leader's rules.
It requires a high level of commitment from at least
some of the members, So again, the definition can get
(11:39):
quite murky and cause a lot of debate. For instance,
there's a huge conversation right now around till Swan, a
new age spiritual self proclaimed health guru who purports to
the powers that allow her to not only look inside
people's bodies and see what's going on, but us also
allow her to recover repressed memories within people and deal
with childhood trauma. She was one of the names I
(12:01):
didn't see. Students paid two thousand dollars or more to
work with her. The debate around her sparked after a
student of hers took their life. Swan, who has a
huge social media presence, has encouraged followers and students to
imagine their suicides in detail. She says quote, we're all
going to get suicidal for a moment. In some of
(12:22):
her YouTube videos, she calls suicide a relief, a reset button.
Her channel has half a million subscribers, and at the
same time she creates a space for conversations around suicidal
thoughts and child sexual abuse. She has plenty of seemingly
harmless content on finding joy and stuff like that, and
videos that have racked up millions of views, but she
(12:45):
does this without any real accountability or responsibility when people
who listen to her may need professional help. Some members
of the Quote Till tribe claim that the only reason
they are alive today is because of what Till taught them.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
And if you want to learn more about Swan, you
can check out the six part Gizmodo podcast series called
The Gateway. Pretty Much everybody we talk about in here,
and every cult we talk about, has either a podcast,
a Netflix documentary, or both, So if you want to
learn more you can the mediums are out there for you,
and this is a case where we're really having to
(13:20):
as a society update our thoughts on cults to include
modern circumstances and technology. Teal uses SEO or search words
basically to target vulnerable people, so if someone searches I
want to kill myself, they might get served up for videos.
Some argue this is also an instance of cults run
by women not being taken seriously as compared to cults
(13:41):
led by men, that cults run by women aren't labeled
as cults when perhaps they should be. The word cult
itself is often gendered when it comes to things like
cults of skincare or cult of domesticity. Multi marketing companies
are sometimes put in the same category as cults, many
of them run by women. Obviously, that's a whole different topic,
(14:02):
and not all emilms would qualify as cults, but just
for instance, and I think there's another conversation we could
have about things like QAnon and how they target women
through self help and yoga groups with these ideas of
protecting children often and just all of that sort of
being dismissed as well. That's a lady thing. We don't
(14:22):
need to pay serious attention to this.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
All right, I know we definitely talked a little bit
about that in our past episode on QAnon and women,
when we talked about the specific groups such as the
red Pill group and all of that which does target
women in that group, as well as giving them mentors,
which is familiar, right, and then who their leaders are
and who they see as leaders, And typically they're all
(14:45):
moms of some sort or caretakers of some sort, so
it's definitely interesting to see that. So cult leaders themselves
are generally charismatic, compelling, and absolutely unshakable, like they will
argue with you until.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
The cows come home. I couldn't think I'm a better saying.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
They are often compared to domestic abusers and follow a
lot of the same patterns, including starting with something called
love bombing, basically showering you with attention not always positive,
and in the early stages a seduction period where the
person recruiting you makes you feel special, which is very
familiar as we know when it comes to grooming. But
in a cult there are promises, a family of meaning
(15:25):
of enlightenment, empowerment, money, being a part of something more
and the bigger and the role you'll play in that.
And then once you've got in isolation is next exerting control.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Right from University of Tennessee. Again, most cult leaders have
narcissistic personality disorder. Symptoms include an excessive need for admiration,
disregard for others feelings and inability to handle any criticism,
and a sense of entitlement. So when it comes to
who these cults target, while vulnerable people or people in
(15:56):
a transitional period in life, like if you've just lost
a job or gone through a really big breakup are
often targeted, no one is immune from Jon T. Tam,
who wrote Cartwheels in a Sorry, a memoir of growing
up in a cult, quote, the aptitude and capacity to
exploit human beings is universal and with the right ambitious
and charismatic leader, any group easily could morph into a cult.
(16:19):
And doctor Yanya Lalich, a cult leader researcher out of
California State University, says, cult leaders will always get their
people to what I call reframe their lives. They reinterpret
their lives so they see everything from before the cult
as messed up, and only by staying with the cult
leader will they get straightened out from doctor Alexandria Stein,
author of Terror, Love and Brainwashing, Attachment and Cults until
(16:41):
Tellitarian Systems. All of it is about arousing fear and
the victim. Once you're fearful and they're the only person
you've got, you will go towards the only resource you have,
which is the person who is frightening you. If I'm frightened,
I go and see my friend or call my mom.
It's instinctive. But when the only person left is the
frightening person, you are trapped. You're trapped emotionally clinging to them,
(17:02):
hoping they alleviate the pain, but that never happens, so
you end up in a feedback loop of fear. From there,
you cognitively disassociate and become unable to think about the
situation you're in. That's why it's so hard to understand
from the outside. People say, why doesn't she just leave
about someone in a relationship, and why didn't they just
leave about someone In a cult, they're trapped there by
a trauma bond and unable to think clearly for themselves.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
So toxic masculinity fits perfectly with these cult leaders. Commodification
and control of female bodies a need to display power
at all times, and because of this, heterosexual men often
use their position as cult leaders to meet their predatory
sexual desires, and we've seen a lot of accounts of that.
There are accounts of women and cults forced to get
abortions having sex with a male cult leader. Violence, emotional
(17:48):
and psychological abuse, and coercions are frequently employed against women
and cults and cults sometimes separate children from their parents,
allowing for sexual abuse, and in several instances there are
women up the male cult leader and the cult of
self helping with recruitment and the general running of the cult.
Jim jones former lover Carolyn Layton was right behind them
(18:09):
in terms of influencing the Jones Down massacre. Or there's
Naomi Jessup, the favorite wife of Warren Jeffs, who stood
by and offered counseling while he was undergoing trial and
citizen for child abuse and molestation, and he ended up
serving time for aggravated sexual as seulf for underage girls. However,
it is important to point out that these women themselves
(18:30):
were indoctrinated. And again, when we talked about the Manson family,
we talked about the women talking about not knowing what
they were walking into, thinking they were just coming into
a circle of love essentially again because they came into
this young and trying, just searching for something. What differentiates
them from other members is that they were able to
earn the cult leaders trust and thus power for themselves,
(18:53):
and often this is a form of protection or self
preservation in the face of trauma and abuse. Holding a
position of trust can shield them from rule and punishments
other members face, perhaps again forming a trauma bond with
the cult leader, and again this is very reminiscent of
being in a vulneoral relationship. They frequently head up recruitment,
projecting a maternal nature and caring to bring in new members,
(19:15):
and many of them, often young women, use for the
cult leader's sexual gratification. And of course, if you look
at who they are and sometimes what they're called, they're
often just called mother or mother so and so. So
it's interesting to see again the naming, mass weddings, arranged marriages, grooming,
forced abortions, and reproductive control and all forms of sexual
abuse are so frequently utilized in cults.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Right Another example of a cult recently garnering mainstream attention
is Nexium, the so called self help organization that's now
called a sex cult. Once members started getting arrested, Nexium
dictated that members cut up ties with friends and family,
replacing those relationships within the group while controlling pretty much
their entire lives. While the leaders slash founder is a
(19:59):
man Renier or Vanguard as he went by, a man
that members believed was the smartest man alive and therefore
the planet's only hope for survival. It was largely run
by women, and it was co founded by a woman
named Nancy Salzman aka the Prefects, who was a registered nurse.
Women were the ones doing the recruitment presenting the public image.
(20:20):
Actor Alison Mack was one of these women. She's become
one of the faces you probably think of first. What
Nexium offered was largely run by women and geared towards women,
sold as self help sessions promising happiness and independence. Intense
twelve hour sessions ran at seven five hundred dollars. In
the words of a former member on the podcast Escaping
(20:40):
Nexium about her experience being ads or Dominus obsequious sororium
in Latin or master of the slave women. This was
a women's group advertised to her as a badass bitch
boot camp. Others said it was painted as a feminist
group desiring to help women deal with intimacy issues. The
former member on to describe how she was pressured by
(21:02):
her master, a woman she counted as a friend entrusted,
to get a brand when she was inducted, which she
only found out later included Ranier's initials. Getting the brand
required the woman to be naked, bound and taped like
filmed before they received it. They were supposed to say,
please brand me. It would be an and honor I
(21:24):
want to wear for the rest of my life. I
believe that was so they could prove that they consented.
The ex member described this whole process is similar to
the frog and the slowly boiling pot, incremental in stages,
cutting her off from support systems that may have helped her.
She said, you know, if you had told me I'd
be getting a brand at the beginning, I would have
said no way, But it just happened so slowly. Members
(21:47):
of DOS were also required to give up something as collateral,
like a video of them masturbating or confession of being
the victim of sexual abuse, off and false. Ranier once
said he believed women were easier to control, and he
would turn women against each other, especially if there was
any resistance sort defiance. So if you had a kind
of higher up position and you did something you didn't like,
he'd be like, well, I'll just go to her. She
(22:07):
doesn't complain. He was extremely controlling about their weights too.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
So Mack was arrusted and federally indicted on charges like
sex trafficking. She appealed, pleading guilty to two charges of racketeering,
and when Yer was sentenced to one hundred and twenty
years in prison in twenty nineteen for charges including exploiting
a child in possession of child pornography. Also something you
should know several women were behind taking when you're down.
I know that there's a whole documentary about that happening.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, this just remind me, and I was telling Samantha
before we did this, we could do a whole episode
on just the level of misogyny involved in this one alone,
because a lot of people were like, how did kind
of that same idea? Ha? Did so many you know,
seemingly very smart women who get into this kind of
feminist camp. But it was just full of this toxic,
(22:58):
misogynistic ideas and it's really really fascinating. So I think
we could come back and revisit this one. But it
did remind me of things like Wickerman, where you like
send the women out to bring people back into your
I don't.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Know that one. That's one I don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Well, you know about the bees, though not the bees,
I don't think so. Samantha's giving me an empty like well,
that's one of my favorite. That's one of the most
well known Nicholas Cage memes.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I need to go back and look it up now.
I feel like I'm missing out somehow, But yeah, I
mean one of the big things that was successful, again
we can get into this is the fact that he
did use women to recruit, and that's been a trick
from the beginning. We know this as kind of what's
happening within trafficking as well. We know a lot of
that happens to be typically people who are in that
life and being told this is great, let me tell
you how it'll change your life and it's not as
(23:47):
bad as you think, and they grow to trust because
just like in many schemes, you find for so many
people who trust women when it comes to that and
thinking that they're safe and they can defend themselves, kind
of that whole level. So there's a whole different conversation
in itself, and the tactics on recruiting, which again has
been used before in many ways. Again, this doesn't mean
(24:09):
women can't be cult leaders. And yeah, we'll get into
that after a quick break from a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And we're back, Thank you sponsor. Just a brief disclaimer, people,
including the women we're going to talk about, do still
argue about whether some, if not all, of these constitute
as cults. There are particular issues an racism, sexism, and yes,
any like anti anything but Christianity sentiment. But here are
(24:48):
some examples that commonly come up when you're talking about
women cult leaders. Let's start with one that might be
the most well known thanks to the Netflix documentary Wild
Wild Country Shila Burnsteel arm Anad Shila. Most well known
is that's probably very specific to when you were born, actually,
(25:10):
but for me, this is one that's up there.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I was gonna say this is one that I watched
for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
I remember when it came out. I didn't watch it,
but I just remember hearing people talk about it and
I was like, wait, this is a documentary, this really happened. Yeah,
and she is still just chilling. Yep, she is. So
she was technically the leader. As the personal assistant to
the Indian Guru of Rajniche Peram, Bagwan Shri Rajnich, she
(25:36):
exerted a lot of control. She convinced him to purchase
the plot of land that would become Rajniche Peram, which
she later purchased herself. She was in charge of external communications,
big events the cults foundation. She controlled the diets and
clothing of members. Many suggest that she really ran pretty
much everything. The Rajniche movement was a combination of Western philosophy,
(26:00):
Eastern mysticism, and free love. At its peak, there were
thousands of members worldwide, many of them upper class white
people looking for enlightenment, and at one point the cult
was worth about sixty five million dollars. When they were
kicked out of India in nineteen eighty, they moved the
movement to Wasscow County in Oregon and built this mini city,
Rashniche Peram. Their neighbors viewed them as a dangerous sex cult.
(26:24):
The tensions between the locals and rajniche Peram escalated. There
was arson, integration, fraud, espionage, and arms race, all kinds
of things.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
If you haven't watched it, you should because just the
interviews with the townspeople is entertaining. Eventually, Shilo went to
jail for thirty nine months for planning and carrying out
biological terrorism. No one was killed, but yeah, over seven
hundred people were poisoned in attempt to impact local election.
There's a whole thing about politics in Here's pretty interesting.
(26:54):
Sheila has fled to Europe, but was arrested in Germany
in nineteen eighty six and extradited to the US, where
she faced federal and state charges including wiretapping, attempted poisoning
separate from this one, bioteror event, immigration violations, and attempted murder.
And when people who lived at Rasenishpiram watched the Netflix documentary,
many of them expressed complete shock at how much power
(27:15):
Sheila wil died. Sheila herself had seemed surprised at the
parts of the documentary she watched, including when she escaped
Rajenichi Piram. And Rogenie said of her quote, she did
not prove to be a woman. She proved to be
a perfect bitch. But she said, in response to questions
about it, how can one's opinion change because someone said
something negative about me. I love the man, I still
love him, and for her it was and is always
(27:37):
about him more. She does a really good job of
making it look that way. I will say she is
an interesting and charismatic speaker when you watch her, because
she did a lot of media for the group, so
it was interesting for sure.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yes, and she has a lot of really really good quotes.
Here's one. What does love have to do with sex?
We were taught to associate sex with love to compensate.
You feel sexual but are afraid to declare it. You
say I love you. In my life it has always
been separate. I can tell someone I want to go
to bed with them, I have no qualms about it
and enjoy being in bed. And if I love somebody,
I love somebody. They are two separate events and I
(28:15):
love this. When compared to Kelly and Conway, she said, no,
I don't allow that comparison. That much pride I have
has okay, And then she also said, in spite of
the guillotine, they haven't killed me yet. They haven't killed
my spirit. No matter where I go, I will always
wear the crown. I'm not afraid of being under guillotine.
(28:36):
She was talking about like, if you're in power, there's
always the threat of the guillotine, and this was what
she said. Yes, I like it and yeah. After the documentary,
a lot of people admitted to loving Sheila, and some
even argued about whether or not she was a feminist
or a feminist figure. Her catchphrase was tough titties again.
Yes these days Sheila runs a care home in Switzerland
(28:57):
and remains unapologetic, saying that call it at Coults is
insulting and yeah, not to again, these are real people
and they were real ramifications, right, But she certainly was
charismatic and I think she was even on the cover
of some big magazine naked. Like she she was influential
and she controlled. She had a lot of power within
(29:18):
this right.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Some of the past members when talking about her is
obviously they were traumatized, but so some of them were
like she did this, Like she just kind of at
that level of like wow, the control or just the
background player that she was and surprised many people. So
it was really interesting to watch, so next we want
to talk about Talk John Hanmon, who was married to
(29:40):
the founder of the Korean New Age Unification Church, Sun
Young Moon. Founding in nineteen fifty four, The Unification Church
was at peak popularity in the nineteen seventies, perhaps reaching
fifty thousand members around the world despite boasting millions. Nineteen
seventy one is also the same year the Moon's moved
the church to the US. The church to advertise a
(30:00):
feeling of belonging, peace and love, tolerance, enlightenment, spirituality, and happiness.
In nineteen sixty, Sun married the then seventeen year old
Talk and they would go on to have several children together.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Sun claimed himself to be God's Messiah, meaning that his
words were the end all be all overwriting all other beliefs, thoughts, desires, feelings, etc.
Because of this, the church and Sun himself wielded massive
control over the members' lives. Some reports suggest that Moonies
may work up to twenty two hours a day while
fasting to a tone for their sins and Yeah. Mooney's
(30:36):
was a sort of derogatory term given to the followers
of this Unification Church. Guidelines around sexual behavior were very strict,
particularly regarding premarital sex and homosexuality, and these mass weddings,
and we're we're talking stadium sized events with up to
twenty five hundred couples getting married and forty thousand spectators.
(30:57):
This event called the Blessing, were a part of enforcing
these guidelines. Together, Son and Hawk were known as True
Father and True Mother, the true parents free from the
original sin. They later crowned themselves Emperor and Impress of
the Universe. And if I'm remembering correctly, twelve US Senators
were at that event at the time. Hawk is also
(31:19):
called Mother of Peace, the Perfect Woman, and the Bride
of Christ. Right.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So here's a description of one of the mass weddings
by Carlisle Murphy and Linda Willard that appeared in the
nineteen ninety seven Washington Post article. The Reverend Moon and
his wife hawkjaw Han Moon, showing a flair reminiscent of
old Broadway musicals, held hands and descended a red carpet
staircase flaked by white road attendants. After a symbolic sprinkling
(31:45):
of water, they led couples in saying I do to
four pledges recited during the noontime blessings ninety seven ceremony,
among them a promise to quote inherit the tradition of
the Unification Church and pass its proud tradition down to
future generations of Unification families and to all mankind. When
the wedding and blessing portion of the program ended, Sun
(32:07):
Myung Moon and Huck Jahan Moons sat wrigally on two
thrones and were given two large bouquets and a trophy.
Neil Salonan, a church official who served as Master of ceremonies,
asked those assembled to think the Moons as is the
Asian custom, by bowing to the couple, and most stadium
attendees tilted at the waist wow.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
The church made an unverified claim that three point six
million people participated in this worldwide. They were big on
really inflating those numbers. Most of the people married in
the ceremony had only met a few weeks prior, matched
by church officials. The church has no official capacity to
marry people, but many consider themselves spiritually married, and Whitney
(32:46):
Houston was supposed to sing at this but canceled due
to illness, as the story goes, at the last minute,
so some of the crowd could be explained that way.
Maybe they were there to see Whitney Houston. Dian Worwick
was there to introduce ax Thom and Yes. While the
church does claim to have fifty thousand members in the
US alone, the numbers believed to be closer to a
(33:07):
few thousand at most. A devout anti communist, Son once
believed the US to be the world's beacon, but thinks
at least in part to financial woes. In the nineteen nineties,
he flipped, calling America quote Satan's harvest. He'd also gone
to jail in the US for eighteen months for charges
of tax fraud and conspiracy. Man, it's a hard flood
(33:27):
right there.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Han founded the Women's Federation of World Peace in nineteen
ninety two, an organization that promotes women working harder to
achieve peace in their communities. She spoke at the WFWP
event with former president George hw. Bush I said w
I feel like that's the way you do it in
nineteen ninety five, saying that her husband had to save
the US from quote the destruction of the family in
(33:51):
moral decay. Around the same time, her husband elevated her
right to be on par with her, so there's promotion.
In two thousand and five, Sun Moon and doctor Hawk
Moon founded the Universal Peace Foundation, which is considered a
NGO in general consultative status with the UN at twenty
twenty upf event, Hawk moons that the goals of the
(34:11):
organizations were to set up Korean War memorials in the
countries that don't have them, and to put together a
registry of anyone who made any sacrifices for Korea. By
my son died in twenty twelve.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, and perhaps clearly we're not really getting too much
in depth into the spiritual religious beliefs of these organizations,
but this church is considered an example of extreme indoctrinated religion.
The followers, yes, are often dismissed as Mooney's Hans stepped
into the leadership position of the church after Moon died.
(34:44):
Through her status, she has become a billionaire. Here's a
quote from a former member, Nasu Kang, from her nineteen
ninety eight book In the Shadow of the Moons, My
life in Reverend Sun Young Moon's family quote. Much has
been written about the coercion and brainwashing that takes in
the Unification Church. What I experienced was conditioning you are
isolated among like minded people. You are bombarded with messages
(35:07):
elevating obedience above critical thinking. Your belief system is reinforced
at every turn. You become invested in those beliefs the
longer you're associated with the church. After ten years, after
twenty years, who would want to admit even to herself
that her beliefs were built on sand? And I guess
they own the Washington Times, this Unification Church, or they
(35:27):
created it anyway. Some built up businesses business Empire in
South Korea and Japan, and then funneled his attention into nonprofits,
but only after he'd stacked their leadership with friends of his.
He was very right leaning and had a strong relationship
with the Republican Party in the United States. When Parents'
Day was signed into law in nineteen ninety five in
(35:47):
the US, some in the church took it as a
sign of how closely their relationship was with the US government.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So Pastor Jung Jen Sean Moon, one of their sons,
is a huge mega and gun guy, and started his
own church in twenty eighteen. He believes he's a rightful
leader of the Unification Church, but he lost to his
mother and his words. His father crowned him three times
as the era of parent, but Hawk was under the
impression she was meant to take over. And here's a
(36:18):
quote from Tess Owen over Advice about a festival his
church held in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Quote.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
The festival held a safe space play area for kids
with signs reading gun free zone and trigger warning. Parents
laughed and snap pictures as their kids strangled pink unicorns
and pummeled rag dolls. The MC of the event was
Joey Gibson, the leader of the far right Patriot Prayer,
who is currently facing felony charges for his involvement in
the violent street brawl with Antifa in Portland, Oregon. There
(36:47):
was even a seminar about the cissification of American men.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
I do remember that one.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Wow, yeah, that's so special, so Sean said about his mom.
She was taking the position of what was described in
the Bible as the Harley of Babylon position. That doesn't
mean I se you as a prostitute.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Okay, I love, I love so nice quick correction of
that doesn't mean I see you as a prostitut. I'm
just saying, just say it. I'm just saying, we do
have some more examples for you listeners, but first we
have one more kick for word from our sponsor, and
(37:32):
we're back. Thank you sponsor, and we're back with Sylvia Mares.
In the early twenty tens, Sylvia Mares was the high
priestess of a cult trying to get in the good
word with a saint not recognized by the Roman Catholic Church,
Santa Muerte, our Holy Death. This saint is often depicted
as a skeletal grim reaper, sometimes described as the patron
(37:53):
saint of serial killers, and Mara's devoutly believed. There's not
too much out there on her, but what we do
know is she killed a friend of hers with an
ax in two thousand and nine. One of the followers,
ten year old family members was the next. Most of
the members of this cult were family members of Silvia's
(38:14):
and then the members would slit open the veins of
victims while they were still alive and drain their blood
into containers, and they would spread the blood on an
altar to Santamuerte, believing it would bring them good fortune.
In twenty twelve, Maris was sentenced to life in prison.
It's estimated two million people follow Santa Muerte in Mexico,
(38:36):
where the following of Santemirte is believed to have originated.
Santa Marte was added to Mexico's list of registered religions
in two thousand and three. So there's a lot of
back and forth about the cult status of the Santa
Marite following, and this is very specific to this woman
and her family for the most part in general.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
So earlier in twenty twenty one, Anne Elizabeth Young or
mother Anna of Copcam, Georgia, so in our Neck of
the Woods, was sentenced to thirty years in prison in Florida.
Young ran a cult in the eighties and was charged
for second degree murder for a two year olds after
her mother gave him to the cult. He was left
in the closet without food and water, where he eventually died.
(39:15):
Young pled guilty to the fatal seizures of a two
year old girl caused by withholding her medication.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
So sad.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Young owned four acres of land in Florida for the
House of the Prayer of the People, a so called
religious boarding school, and a place nicknamed the Town that
Time Forgot. Members wore roves and headcoverings, and the belief
system was a mixture of Old Testament ideologies and collectivism.
Young was controlling and obviously abusive, and when a seven
(39:43):
year old boy stole a piece of candy, she deemed
he should be punished with thirty three lashes in reference
to Jesus' age when he died on the cross. And
in nineteen ninety two, the police investigated the group after
Young publicly bathed a twelve year old girl in the chemicals,
causing serious burns as she spent several months in a
severe burne unit. Anna's daughter Joy was one of the
(40:03):
key people to bring her down, testifying against her after
an argument about how Joy was caring for our children
led to Joyce seeking justice for the children had died
under her mother's care.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
And we thought we would wrap up this part one
with the inspiration for this episode. A news item that
Samantha saw and brought to my attention. Recently, a man
in Colorado alerted the police that he'd found a mummified
body at quote some type of shrine. The body was
in case in a sleeping bag and Christmas lights, glitter, makeup,
circled eye sockets that appeared to be empty. The man
(40:34):
who brought this to the attention of the police. Was
a follower of Love Has Won, a religious group often
described as a cult led by Amy Carlson or Amy
Carlson or the quote Mother God. Her body was believed
to be transported from California to Colorado. Seven members of
Love Has Won were charged with abuse of a corpse
(40:55):
and child abuse. Recent reports suggests no foul play, that
she was in poor health and drink a lot. Many
followers believe that she had quote ascended. She herself claims
that when she died, she would ascend to the fifth dimension.
Carlson founded Love Has Won around two thousand and six,
leaving behind her children to do so. She called it
a quote spiritual organization, and it was heavily informed by
(41:17):
New Age movements and ideas. The group offered items like
medicinal supplements and colloidal silver alongside sessions promising spiritual ascension.
At the head of it all was Carlson, who assured
she could talk with angels, that she could cure cancer,
she could usher loved ones to other dimensions, or have
a great awakening for lost loved ones. Before the official
(41:39):
website went down, Carlson asserted on it that her past
lives included Marilyn Monroe and Jesus Christ, and that she
was on her quote five hundred and thirty fourth reincarnation
in my quest to recover my beloved planet. The cult
was very active online and that's one of the ways
that they targeted new followers. She lived with local followers
and one big house, but estimates put membership at thousands
(42:02):
when counting online members. Carlson engaged in several of the
abusive methods of control we've mentioned, and allegedly only let
members sleep four hours a day. There's also not too
much out there about this one, but some said that
the group made headlines recently when fourteen followers, including Carlson,
refused to adhere to MASK guidelines in Hawaii and appropriated
(42:22):
the culture, with Carlson claiming she was the Hawaiian Goddess
of fire, and police escorted them off the island. As
of this recording, officials are still waiting for the toxicology
report on her and to positively id the body, so
this is all ongoing right now. Her family claims that
towards the end, she was being brainwashed by her own
cult and other members of it.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Right, and I believe Vice has a documentary that they
did of the cult a while back, so it's interesting
to see if you want to watch any of that.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, like we said, almost all of these have something
like a documentary or podcast out there. And not to
hammer this point home, but I think it's worth hammering
home that people still argue about whether or not all
of these constitutors cults and what why we label things
as cults, and so I know we were using cult
(43:13):
kind of interchangeably throughout, but just very very aware and
acknowledge that that is it's a ongoing conversation. Well, in
the meantime, this was only part one, and we have
some more for you in part two, so keep an
eye out for that. In the meantime, if you would
like to contact us, you can. You can email us
atuff Medium, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com, or you
(43:34):
can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. You
can also find us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never
Told You. Thanks. It's always to our super producer Christina,
thank you, and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I
Never Told You is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie Kansamantha. Welcome to stuff. I never
told you objection, but I heard you, And today we
are bringing back part one of our two part series
of women cult Beaters. Yes, because, as we've discussed in
(00:30):
recent times, we've been talking about cults a lot. I've
seen a lot of stuff about cults popping up and
getting a lot of attention on streaming a lot of
different things and stirring up conversation there, so figured why
not bring this? Why not?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Apparently we Yeah, we've I've also been talking to people
about it. One was about a cult through the Renaissance fair.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh yes, yes, but that's been kind of the fascinating
thing about all this different media about it is you're
seeing all the various ways it can manifest. Who knew,
well once we tried and apparently well, please enjoy part
(01:20):
one of this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and
Samantha and welcome to stuff. I've never told your production.
Iheartrate you. So, Samantha, are you into cult like entertainment?
(01:46):
I am so.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Actually, I don't know if you knew this. As I
studied social work at the University of Georgia, I kind
of had a secondary because I was stupid me.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I don't know why I didn't keep going with it.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I was like three or four classes away from actually
having it as another major, but religion was going to
be another major, and my focus was actually on cults
Eastern religions. But that not that they have anything the same,
they're not. But yeah, because I love the whole idea
of cults and what it like, it's background kind of
the beginnings of religion and how it started as cult
(02:20):
like and then moving on. So yeah, I love different facts.
Of course, that's the tragedies. I don't love that, but
the fascination of why people follow, who they follow, and
what they believe.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Right, Yeah, I like we talked about in past episodes.
I'm not really big into true crime and I haven't
seen a lot of the documentaries or other I haven't
listened to a lot of podcasts that have been done
about these cults, but I do. It is one of
my favorite kind of genres of horror that I find
(02:54):
really upsetting and disturbing. One of my favorite video game
series is Silent Hill, which has a big cult element.
And I love Midsommar and the other lamb but they
do freak me out. They really unsettle me. And I
was in a cult based movie.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Okay, that was not going in my head. You were
about to say something else, like, wait, what it was
in a cults? By the way, I have had friends
who were part of cults, who grew up in cults
or communes as they would call it, but they came
with a lot of trauma.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, I had. I might have told the story before
on the show. As far as I know, I don't
have any close friends or family that have been involved
in cults. But I had a group of friends who
uh wanted to see the audit process of scientology. Like
they didn't want to join obviously. Well I don't know obviously,
(03:47):
but they didn't want to join, and they made this.
They were like, we're not going to get separated, we
just want to like check it out. And they all
got separated.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I was like, yep, that's the beginning of like several
sitcom episodes that I've seen. It's not fun, but they
all get separated the first thing. They're like, oh no,
and one of them eventually buison and the rest of
them are like trying to get them out.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So many plots, so many well, who do you think
of when you think of cult leaders, like what is
the stereotypical image that comes to mind?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Course, like David Koresh is a big name in the
US as someone that we know who is a big
leader in cults. I think about actually scientology as part
of that as well. So I think I'm not necessarily
a leader. But Leah REMANI who has a show with iHeart,
I believe talking about her time as a part of
(04:38):
a scientologist group. I think about her sometimes just because
she's so loud about it and there's not too many
people who are willing to be loud about it. And
I know one of the big things about cults and
communies like that are specific to secrecy and blackmail, and
there's so many stories. Like I said, I've had friends
who are parts of them who had been.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Like they did this to me.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
They told me they had to give I had to
give all this information to them, and how they kind
of just like in a like a domestic violence situation,
they strip them of their personality, they strip them of
their identity. But yeah, I think about her too for
some reason that she pospsed me my head. Obviously, again,
not a leader, she's out and she's talking about some
of the issues within her experiences. Yeah, but I find
(05:19):
it interesting enough because it's one of the bigger, more
popular ones thanks to celebrities, right her. So yeah, those
are the ones that kind of pop into my head.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
What about you? Yeah, I mean, she's definitely a vocal
person when it comes to colts And this was researching
this episode, I was shocked at how many times a
celebrity would come up and I was like, wow, they
were in this, Okay, Yeah, but I do like, if
I just come up with the stereotypical cult leader image,
it's usually a white dude with brown hair, darker hair,
(05:53):
all bearded. Yeah, usually kind of Jesus Like yeah, honestly.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah. One of the most fascinating studies that I did,
or a book that I read and we researched and
I can't even remember his name, was a book called
The God's Chinese Son. Essentially, it was this man from
China who truly believed he was Jesus's brother and started
his own cult within China. But a little not like
(06:18):
I don't hear too many where they use Christian based
idea within like China and all that I've not.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Heard too many. Maybe it's because I haven't looked it up.
There are going to be a few we're going to
talk about in here, but yeah, and I know, like
this there's a fascination of cults in general, and like
Snel recently did that like music video where the women
were talking about how they love murder shows and then
at the end Nick Jonas comes in I think it
(06:44):
was him, and he was like, what about the cult shows? Yeah,
so we are talking about women cult leaders specifically in
this one, and we're planning on returning to discuss women
in cults at large, which we will touch on a
little bit. But yeah, we wanted to talk about some
of the ladies at the at the forefront of these cults,
(07:05):
and it turns out there's more than we thought. So
this is a two harder but yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So essentially, after the news broke out about the leader
of Love has won, which we're going to talk about
her a little bit, we came to a point We're like, wait,
how many female cult leaders are there?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And what? Wow?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Why there's so many just questions So definitely wanted to
look again. Didn't realize there were so many.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yes, And before we get into this trigger warning. We
are going to be discussing suicide, sexual abuse, violence, death, murder,
general abuse, just some not so savory things, right because
we're talking about cults. But we're not going to go
too in depth into any of that. And reminder always
remember that, yes, these are real people still dealing with
(07:52):
the fallout in many cases of what we're talking about,
and like in our Serial Killers episode, the history can
be a bit exaggerated and hard to pin down, but
we did our best, right. Yeah, So all right, let's
do some basics here before we get into some of
the women leaders. After the Manson family shocked the public
with the murders, cults became a big source of anxiety
(08:14):
in the United States, and anxiety that lasted from the
late nineteen sixties until the nineteen nineties, spurred on by
media coverage. But what exactly is a cult? Well, it
turns out that is a very hard definition to have
been down. Nobody wants to be too precise, it seems
from a Pen Today article, cult is a term that
(08:36):
doesn't refer to a religion at all, but is applied
to a social movement. People have intuitive feelings about how
the word cults should be used, even when an organization
or movement meets the criteria of a new religion. Take
for example, Scientilogy and Mormonism. Both were new religious movements
that have evolved into a general understanding of definition of
a religion. However, according to Pew Research, non Mormons in
(08:58):
the US are more likely to label Mormonism as a cult.
Scientology and Mormonism have outlived their charismatic leaders and side
note from me, the charismatic leader bit is really key
in this whole thing, The article continues. They have openly
published their beliefs as scripture. Both religions seek truth by
offering its followers a roadmap for their place in the universe,
(09:20):
along with a moral code. Those who accept the beliefs
and rituals are members of their religion, but many outside
consider the movement and its followers to be a cult.
And then it goes on to quote linguistics professor Robin Clark,
the word cult originally designates a practice of religious veneration
and the religious system based around such veneration, for example,
the cults of Our Lady of Godalupe. However, the word
(09:42):
was co opted in the first half of the twentieth
century by sociology and has come to denote a social
group with socially deviant beliefs and practices like a UFO cult.
And there's been a lot of hypocrisy and suspicion when
it comes to Eastern religions and anything affiliated with them
in the US, especially when they've become successful. Basically, anything
(10:03):
that's not Christianity couldn't get caught up in this whole
cult conversation. And yeah, that whole idea. There have been
a lot of arguments about a new religion sort of
if it doesn't fit into this Christianity framework being called
a cult. And cults can't exist in multiple numbers of ways, religious, commercial, familial,
(10:25):
just to name a few. And yeah, the typically that
charismatic leader is really really key and some of the
things we're going to talk about like maybe was a
cult at one time and then evolved out of it
or just depending on who the leader is, right, which
actually has been the source of conversation around trump Ism.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Right. And again, this is why we wanted to look
at the female leaders because it is so centered around
the leaders these different groups. It's fascinating to see people
following women in general. So to have the charisma, Yeah,
it's typically understated, which is probably why I didn't know
as many of these names as I do of male leaders.
(11:08):
But that's a whole different thing. So let's talk about
some numbers. So, according to Tennessee State University, there are
thousands of cults in America, and some harless, some dangerous.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Not surprising.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
They go on to define cult as a group or
movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic
leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has
the answers to all of life's questions and offers a
special solution to be gained only by following the leader's rules.
It requires a high level of commitment from at least
some of the members, So again, the definition can get
(11:39):
quite murky and cause a lot of debate. For instance,
there's a huge conversation right now around till Swan, a
new age spiritual self proclaimed health guru who purports to
the powers that allow her to not only look inside
people's bodies and see what's going on, but us also
allow her to recover repressed memories within people and deal
with childhood trauma. She was one of the names I
(12:01):
didn't see. Students paid two thousand dollars or more to
work with her. The debate around her sparked after a
student of hers took their life. Swan, who has a
huge social media presence, has encouraged followers and students to
imagine their suicides in detail. She says quote, we're all
going to get suicidal for a moment. In some of
(12:22):
her YouTube videos, she calls suicide a relief, a reset button.
Her channel has half a million subscribers, and at the
same time she creates a space for conversations around suicidal
thoughts and child sexual abuse. She has plenty of seemingly
harmless content on finding joy and stuff like that, and
videos that have racked up millions of views, but she
(12:45):
does this without any real accountability or responsibility when people
who listen to her may need professional help. Some members
of the Quote Till tribe claim that the only reason
they are alive today is because of what Till taught them.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
And if you want to learn more about Swan, you
can check out the six part Gizmodo podcast series called
The Gateway. Pretty Much everybody we talk about in here,
and every cult we talk about, has either a podcast,
a Netflix documentary, or both, So if you want to
learn more you can the mediums are out there for you,
and this is a case where we're really having to
(13:20):
as a society update our thoughts on cults to include
modern circumstances and technology. Teal uses SEO or search words
basically to target vulnerable people, so if someone searches I
want to kill myself, they might get served up for videos.
Some argue this is also an instance of cults run
by women not being taken seriously as compared to cults
(13:41):
led by men, that cults run by women aren't labeled
as cults when perhaps they should be. The word cult
itself is often gendered when it comes to things like
cults of skincare or cult of domesticity. Multi marketing companies
are sometimes put in the same category as cults, many
of them run by women. Obviously, that's a whole different topic,
(14:02):
and not all emilms would qualify as cults, but just
for instance, and I think there's another conversation we could
have about things like QAnon and how they target women
through self help and yoga groups with these ideas of
protecting children often and just all of that sort of
being dismissed as well. That's a lady thing. We don't
(14:22):
need to pay serious attention to this.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
All right, I know we definitely talked a little bit
about that in our past episode on QAnon and women,
when we talked about the specific groups such as the
red Pill group and all of that which does target
women in that group, as well as giving them mentors,
which is familiar, right, and then who their leaders are
and who they see as leaders, And typically they're all
(14:45):
moms of some sort or caretakers of some sort, so
it's definitely interesting to see that. So cult leaders themselves
are generally charismatic, compelling, and absolutely unshakable, like they will
argue with you until.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
The cows come home. I couldn't think I'm a better saying.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
They are often compared to domestic abusers and follow a
lot of the same patterns, including starting with something called
love bombing, basically showering you with attention not always positive,
and in the early stages a seduction period where the
person recruiting you makes you feel special, which is very
familiar as we know when it comes to grooming. But
in a cult there are promises, a family of meaning
(15:25):
of enlightenment, empowerment, money, being a part of something more
and the bigger and the role you'll play in that.
And then once you've got in isolation is next exerting control.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Right from University of Tennessee. Again, most cult leaders have
narcissistic personality disorder. Symptoms include an excessive need for admiration,
disregard for others feelings and inability to handle any criticism,
and a sense of entitlement. So when it comes to
who these cults target, while vulnerable people or people in
(15:56):
a transitional period in life, like if you've just lost
a job or gone through a really big breakup are
often targeted, no one is immune from Jon T. Tam,
who wrote Cartwheels in a Sorry, a memoir of growing
up in a cult, quote, the aptitude and capacity to
exploit human beings is universal and with the right ambitious
and charismatic leader, any group easily could morph into a cult.
(16:19):
And doctor Yanya Lalich, a cult leader researcher out of
California State University, says, cult leaders will always get their
people to what I call reframe their lives. They reinterpret
their lives so they see everything from before the cult
as messed up, and only by staying with the cult
leader will they get straightened out from doctor Alexandria Stein,
author of Terror, Love and Brainwashing, Attachment and Cults until
(16:41):
Tellitarian Systems. All of it is about arousing fear and
the victim. Once you're fearful and they're the only person
you've got, you will go towards the only resource you have,
which is the person who is frightening you. If I'm frightened,
I go and see my friend or call my mom.
It's instinctive. But when the only person left is the
frightening person, you are trapped. You're trapped emotionally clinging to them,
(17:02):
hoping they alleviate the pain, but that never happens, so
you end up in a feedback loop of fear. From there,
you cognitively disassociate and become unable to think about the
situation you're in. That's why it's so hard to understand
from the outside. People say, why doesn't she just leave
about someone in a relationship, and why didn't they just
leave about someone In a cult, they're trapped there by
a trauma bond and unable to think clearly for themselves.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
So toxic masculinity fits perfectly with these cult leaders. Commodification
and control of female bodies a need to display power
at all times, and because of this, heterosexual men often
use their position as cult leaders to meet their predatory
sexual desires, and we've seen a lot of accounts of that.
There are accounts of women and cults forced to get
abortions having sex with a male cult leader. Violence, emotional
(17:48):
and psychological abuse, and coercions are frequently employed against women
and cults and cults sometimes separate children from their parents,
allowing for sexual abuse, and in several instances there are
women up the male cult leader and the cult of
self helping with recruitment and the general running of the cult.
Jim jones former lover Carolyn Layton was right behind them
(18:09):
in terms of influencing the Jones Down massacre. Or there's
Naomi Jessup, the favorite wife of Warren Jeffs, who stood
by and offered counseling while he was undergoing trial and
citizen for child abuse and molestation, and he ended up
serving time for aggravated sexual as seulf for underage girls. However,
it is important to point out that these women themselves
(18:30):
were indoctrinated. And again, when we talked about the Manson family,
we talked about the women talking about not knowing what
they were walking into, thinking they were just coming into
a circle of love essentially again because they came into
this young and trying, just searching for something. What differentiates
them from other members is that they were able to
earn the cult leaders trust and thus power for themselves,
(18:53):
and often this is a form of protection or self
preservation in the face of trauma and abuse. Holding a
position of trust can shield them from rule and punishments
other members face, perhaps again forming a trauma bond with
the cult leader, and again this is very reminiscent of
being in a vulneoral relationship. They frequently head up recruitment,
projecting a maternal nature and caring to bring in new members,
(19:15):
and many of them, often young women, use for the
cult leader's sexual gratification. And of course, if you look
at who they are and sometimes what they're called, they're
often just called mother or mother so and so. So
it's interesting to see again the naming, mass weddings, arranged marriages, grooming,
forced abortions, and reproductive control and all forms of sexual
abuse are so frequently utilized in cults.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Right Another example of a cult recently garnering mainstream attention
is Nexium, the so called self help organization that's now
called a sex cult. Once members started getting arrested, Nexium
dictated that members cut up ties with friends and family,
replacing those relationships within the group while controlling pretty much
their entire lives. While the leaders slash founder is a
(19:59):
man Renier or Vanguard as he went by, a man
that members believed was the smartest man alive and therefore
the planet's only hope for survival. It was largely run
by women, and it was co founded by a woman
named Nancy Salzman aka the Prefects, who was a registered nurse.
Women were the ones doing the recruitment presenting the public image.
(20:20):
Actor Alison Mack was one of these women. She's become
one of the faces you probably think of first. What
Nexium offered was largely run by women and geared towards women,
sold as self help sessions promising happiness and independence. Intense
twelve hour sessions ran at seven five hundred dollars. In
the words of a former member on the podcast Escaping
(20:40):
Nexium about her experience being ads or Dominus obsequious sororium
in Latin or master of the slave women. This was
a women's group advertised to her as a badass bitch
boot camp. Others said it was painted as a feminist
group desiring to help women deal with intimacy issues. The
former member on to describe how she was pressured by
(21:02):
her master, a woman she counted as a friend entrusted,
to get a brand when she was inducted, which she
only found out later included Ranier's initials. Getting the brand
required the woman to be naked, bound and taped like
filmed before they received it. They were supposed to say,
please brand me. It would be an and honor I
(21:24):
want to wear for the rest of my life. I
believe that was so they could prove that they consented.
The ex member described this whole process is similar to
the frog and the slowly boiling pot, incremental in stages,
cutting her off from support systems that may have helped her.
She said, you know, if you had told me I'd
be getting a brand at the beginning, I would have
said no way, But it just happened so slowly. Members
(21:47):
of DOS were also required to give up something as collateral,
like a video of them masturbating or confession of being
the victim of sexual abuse, off and false. Ranier once
said he believed women were easier to control, and he
would turn women against each other, especially if there was
any resistance sort defiance. So if you had a kind
of higher up position and you did something you didn't like,
he'd be like, well, I'll just go to her. She
(22:07):
doesn't complain. He was extremely controlling about their weights too.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
So Mack was arrusted and federally indicted on charges like
sex trafficking. She appealed, pleading guilty to two charges of racketeering,
and when Yer was sentenced to one hundred and twenty
years in prison in twenty nineteen for charges including exploiting
a child in possession of child pornography. Also something you
should know several women were behind taking when you're down.
I know that there's a whole documentary about that happening.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, this just remind me, and I was telling Samantha
before we did this, we could do a whole episode
on just the level of misogyny involved in this one alone,
because a lot of people were like, how did kind
of that same idea? Ha? Did so many you know,
seemingly very smart women who get into this kind of
feminist camp. But it was just full of this toxic,
(22:58):
misogynistic ideas and it's really really fascinating. So I think
we could come back and revisit this one. But it
did remind me of things like Wickerman, where you like
send the women out to bring people back into your
I don't.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Know that one. That's one I don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Well, you know about the bees, though not the bees,
I don't think so. Samantha's giving me an empty like well,
that's one of my favorite. That's one of the most
well known Nicholas Cage memes.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I need to go back and look it up now.
I feel like I'm missing out somehow, But yeah, I
mean one of the big things that was successful, again
we can get into this is the fact that he
did use women to recruit, and that's been a trick
from the beginning. We know this as kind of what's
happening within trafficking as well. We know a lot of
that happens to be typically people who are in that
life and being told this is great, let me tell
you how it'll change your life and it's not as
(23:47):
bad as you think, and they grow to trust because
just like in many schemes, you find for so many
people who trust women when it comes to that and
thinking that they're safe and they can defend themselves, kind
of that whole level. So there's a whole different conversation
in itself, and the tactics on recruiting, which again has
been used before in many ways. Again, this doesn't mean
(24:09):
women can't be cult leaders. And yeah, we'll get into
that after a quick break from a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And we're back, Thank you sponsor. Just a brief disclaimer, people,
including the women we're going to talk about, do still
argue about whether some, if not all, of these constitute
as cults. There are particular issues an racism, sexism, and yes,
any like anti anything but Christianity sentiment. But here are
(24:48):
some examples that commonly come up when you're talking about
women cult leaders. Let's start with one that might be
the most well known thanks to the Netflix documentary Wild
Wild Country Shila Burnsteel arm Anad Shila. Most well known
is that's probably very specific to when you were born, actually,
(25:10):
but for me, this is one that's up there.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I was gonna say this is one that I watched
for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
I remember when it came out. I didn't watch it,
but I just remember hearing people talk about it and
I was like, wait, this is a documentary, this really happened. Yeah,
and she is still just chilling. Yep, she is. So
she was technically the leader. As the personal assistant to
the Indian Guru of Rajniche Peram, Bagwan Shri Rajnich, she
(25:36):
exerted a lot of control. She convinced him to purchase
the plot of land that would become Rajniche Peram, which
she later purchased herself. She was in charge of external communications,
big events the cults foundation. She controlled the diets and
clothing of members. Many suggest that she really ran pretty
much everything. The Rajniche movement was a combination of Western philosophy,
(26:00):
Eastern mysticism, and free love. At its peak, there were
thousands of members worldwide, many of them upper class white
people looking for enlightenment, and at one point the cult
was worth about sixty five million dollars. When they were
kicked out of India in nineteen eighty, they moved the
movement to Wasscow County in Oregon and built this mini city,
Rashniche Peram. Their neighbors viewed them as a dangerous sex cult.
(26:24):
The tensions between the locals and rajniche Peram escalated. There
was arson, integration, fraud, espionage, and arms race, all kinds
of things.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
If you haven't watched it, you should because just the
interviews with the townspeople is entertaining. Eventually, Shilo went to
jail for thirty nine months for planning and carrying out
biological terrorism. No one was killed, but yeah, over seven
hundred people were poisoned in attempt to impact local election.
There's a whole thing about politics in Here's pretty interesting.
(26:54):
Sheila has fled to Europe, but was arrested in Germany
in nineteen eighty six and extradited to the US, where
she faced federal and state charges including wiretapping, attempted poisoning
separate from this one, bioteror event, immigration violations, and attempted murder.
And when people who lived at Rasenishpiram watched the Netflix documentary,
many of them expressed complete shock at how much power
(27:15):
Sheila wil died. Sheila herself had seemed surprised at the
parts of the documentary she watched, including when she escaped
Rajenichi Piram. And Rogenie said of her quote, she did
not prove to be a woman. She proved to be
a perfect bitch. But she said, in response to questions
about it, how can one's opinion change because someone said
something negative about me. I love the man, I still
love him, and for her it was and is always
(27:37):
about him more. She does a really good job of
making it look that way. I will say she is
an interesting and charismatic speaker when you watch her, because
she did a lot of media for the group, so
it was interesting for sure.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yes, and she has a lot of really really good quotes.
Here's one. What does love have to do with sex?
We were taught to associate sex with love to compensate.
You feel sexual but are afraid to declare it. You
say I love you. In my life it has always
been separate. I can tell someone I want to go
to bed with them, I have no qualms about it
and enjoy being in bed. And if I love somebody,
I love somebody. They are two separate events and I
(28:15):
love this. When compared to Kelly and Conway, she said, no,
I don't allow that comparison. That much pride I have
has okay, And then she also said, in spite of
the guillotine, they haven't killed me yet. They haven't killed
my spirit. No matter where I go, I will always
wear the crown. I'm not afraid of being under guillotine.
(28:36):
She was talking about like, if you're in power, there's
always the threat of the guillotine, and this was what
she said. Yes, I like it and yeah. After the documentary,
a lot of people admitted to loving Sheila, and some
even argued about whether or not she was a feminist
or a feminist figure. Her catchphrase was tough titties again.
Yes these days Sheila runs a care home in Switzerland
(28:57):
and remains unapologetic, saying that call it at Coults is
insulting and yeah, not to again, these are real people
and they were real ramifications, right, But she certainly was
charismatic and I think she was even on the cover
of some big magazine naked. Like she she was influential
and she controlled. She had a lot of power within
(29:18):
this right.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Some of the past members when talking about her is
obviously they were traumatized, but so some of them were
like she did this, Like she just kind of at
that level of like wow, the control or just the
background player that she was and surprised many people. So
it was really interesting to watch, so next we want
to talk about Talk John Hanmon, who was married to
(29:40):
the founder of the Korean New Age Unification Church, Sun
Young Moon. Founding in nineteen fifty four, The Unification Church
was at peak popularity in the nineteen seventies, perhaps reaching
fifty thousand members around the world despite boasting millions. Nineteen
seventy one is also the same year the Moon's moved
the church to the US. The church to advertise a
(30:00):
feeling of belonging, peace and love, tolerance, enlightenment, spirituality, and happiness.
In nineteen sixty, Sun married the then seventeen year old
Talk and they would go on to have several children together.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Sun claimed himself to be God's Messiah, meaning that his
words were the end all be all overwriting all other beliefs, thoughts, desires, feelings, etc.
Because of this, the church and Sun himself wielded massive
control over the members' lives. Some reports suggest that Moonies
may work up to twenty two hours a day while
fasting to a tone for their sins and Yeah. Mooney's
(30:36):
was a sort of derogatory term given to the followers
of this Unification Church. Guidelines around sexual behavior were very strict,
particularly regarding premarital sex and homosexuality, and these mass weddings,
and we're we're talking stadium sized events with up to
twenty five hundred couples getting married and forty thousand spectators.
(30:57):
This event called the Blessing, were a part of enforcing
these guidelines. Together, Son and Hawk were known as True
Father and True Mother, the true parents free from the
original sin. They later crowned themselves Emperor and Impress of
the Universe. And if I'm remembering correctly, twelve US Senators
were at that event at the time. Hawk is also
(31:19):
called Mother of Peace, the Perfect Woman, and the Bride
of Christ. Right.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So here's a description of one of the mass weddings
by Carlisle Murphy and Linda Willard that appeared in the
nineteen ninety seven Washington Post article. The Reverend Moon and
his wife hawkjaw Han Moon, showing a flair reminiscent of
old Broadway musicals, held hands and descended a red carpet
staircase flaked by white road attendants. After a symbolic sprinkling
(31:45):
of water, they led couples in saying I do to
four pledges recited during the noontime blessings ninety seven ceremony,
among them a promise to quote inherit the tradition of
the Unification Church and pass its proud tradition down to
future generations of Unification families and to all mankind. When
the wedding and blessing portion of the program ended, Sun
(32:07):
Myung Moon and Huck Jahan Moons sat wrigally on two
thrones and were given two large bouquets and a trophy.
Neil Salonan, a church official who served as Master of ceremonies,
asked those assembled to think the Moons as is the
Asian custom, by bowing to the couple, and most stadium
attendees tilted at the waist wow.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
The church made an unverified claim that three point six
million people participated in this worldwide. They were big on
really inflating those numbers. Most of the people married in
the ceremony had only met a few weeks prior, matched
by church officials. The church has no official capacity to
marry people, but many consider themselves spiritually married, and Whitney
(32:46):
Houston was supposed to sing at this but canceled due
to illness, as the story goes, at the last minute,
so some of the crowd could be explained that way.
Maybe they were there to see Whitney Houston. Dian Worwick
was there to introduce ax Thom and Yes. While the
church does claim to have fifty thousand members in the
US alone, the numbers believed to be closer to a
(33:07):
few thousand at most. A devout anti communist, Son once
believed the US to be the world's beacon, but thinks
at least in part to financial woes. In the nineteen nineties,
he flipped, calling America quote Satan's harvest. He'd also gone
to jail in the US for eighteen months for charges
of tax fraud and conspiracy. Man, it's a hard flood
(33:27):
right there.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Han founded the Women's Federation of World Peace in nineteen
ninety two, an organization that promotes women working harder to
achieve peace in their communities. She spoke at the WFWP
event with former president George hw. Bush I said w
I feel like that's the way you do it in
nineteen ninety five, saying that her husband had to save
the US from quote the destruction of the family in
(33:51):
moral decay. Around the same time, her husband elevated her
right to be on par with her, so there's promotion.
In two thousand and five, Sun Moon and doctor Hawk
Moon founded the Universal Peace Foundation, which is considered a
NGO in general consultative status with the UN at twenty
twenty upf event, Hawk moons that the goals of the
(34:11):
organizations were to set up Korean War memorials in the
countries that don't have them, and to put together a
registry of anyone who made any sacrifices for Korea. By
my son died in twenty twelve.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, and perhaps clearly we're not really getting too much
in depth into the spiritual religious beliefs of these organizations,
but this church is considered an example of extreme indoctrinated religion.
The followers, yes, are often dismissed as Mooney's Hans stepped
into the leadership position of the church after Moon died.
(34:44):
Through her status, she has become a billionaire. Here's a
quote from a former member, Nasu Kang, from her nineteen
ninety eight book In the Shadow of the Moons, My
life in Reverend Sun Young Moon's family quote. Much has
been written about the coercion and brainwashing that takes in
the Unification Church. What I experienced was conditioning you are
isolated among like minded people. You are bombarded with messages
(35:07):
elevating obedience above critical thinking. Your belief system is reinforced
at every turn. You become invested in those beliefs the
longer you're associated with the church. After ten years, after
twenty years, who would want to admit even to herself
that her beliefs were built on sand? And I guess
they own the Washington Times, this Unification Church, or they
(35:27):
created it anyway. Some built up businesses business Empire in
South Korea and Japan, and then funneled his attention into nonprofits,
but only after he'd stacked their leadership with friends of his.
He was very right leaning and had a strong relationship
with the Republican Party in the United States. When Parents'
Day was signed into law in nineteen ninety five in
(35:47):
the US, some in the church took it as a
sign of how closely their relationship was with the US government.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So Pastor Jung Jen Sean Moon, one of their sons,
is a huge mega and gun guy, and started his
own church in twenty eighteen. He believes he's a rightful
leader of the Unification Church, but he lost to his
mother and his words. His father crowned him three times
as the era of parent, but Hawk was under the
impression she was meant to take over. And here's a
(36:18):
quote from Tess Owen over Advice about a festival his
church held in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Quote.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
The festival held a safe space play area for kids
with signs reading gun free zone and trigger warning. Parents
laughed and snap pictures as their kids strangled pink unicorns
and pummeled rag dolls. The MC of the event was
Joey Gibson, the leader of the far right Patriot Prayer,
who is currently facing felony charges for his involvement in
the violent street brawl with Antifa in Portland, Oregon. There
(36:47):
was even a seminar about the cissification of American men.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
I do remember that one.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Wow, yeah, that's so special, so Sean said about his mom.
She was taking the position of what was described in
the Bible as the Harley of Babylon position. That doesn't
mean I se you as a prostitute.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Okay, I love, I love so nice quick correction of
that doesn't mean I see you as a prostitut. I'm
just saying, just say it. I'm just saying, we do
have some more examples for you listeners, but first we
have one more kick for word from our sponsor, and
(37:32):
we're back. Thank you sponsor, and we're back with Sylvia Mares.
In the early twenty tens, Sylvia Mares was the high
priestess of a cult trying to get in the good
word with a saint not recognized by the Roman Catholic Church,
Santa Muerte, our Holy Death. This saint is often depicted
as a skeletal grim reaper, sometimes described as the patron
(37:53):
saint of serial killers, and Mara's devoutly believed. There's not
too much out there on her, but what we do
know is she killed a friend of hers with an
ax in two thousand and nine. One of the followers,
ten year old family members was the next. Most of
the members of this cult were family members of Silvia's
(38:14):
and then the members would slit open the veins of
victims while they were still alive and drain their blood
into containers, and they would spread the blood on an
altar to Santamuerte, believing it would bring them good fortune.
In twenty twelve, Maris was sentenced to life in prison.
It's estimated two million people follow Santa Muerte in Mexico,
(38:36):
where the following of Santemirte is believed to have originated.
Santa Marte was added to Mexico's list of registered religions
in two thousand and three. So there's a lot of
back and forth about the cult status of the Santa
Marite following, and this is very specific to this woman
and her family for the most part in general.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
So earlier in twenty twenty one, Anne Elizabeth Young or
mother Anna of Copcam, Georgia, so in our Neck of
the Woods, was sentenced to thirty years in prison in Florida.
Young ran a cult in the eighties and was charged
for second degree murder for a two year olds after
her mother gave him to the cult. He was left
in the closet without food and water, where he eventually died.
(39:15):
Young pled guilty to the fatal seizures of a two
year old girl caused by withholding her medication.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
So sad.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Young owned four acres of land in Florida for the
House of the Prayer of the People, a so called
religious boarding school, and a place nicknamed the Town that
Time Forgot. Members wore roves and headcoverings, and the belief
system was a mixture of Old Testament ideologies and collectivism.
Young was controlling and obviously abusive, and when a seven
(39:43):
year old boy stole a piece of candy, she deemed
he should be punished with thirty three lashes in reference
to Jesus' age when he died on the cross. And
in nineteen ninety two, the police investigated the group after
Young publicly bathed a twelve year old girl in the chemicals,
causing serious burns as she spent several months in a
severe burne unit. Anna's daughter Joy was one of the
(40:03):
key people to bring her down, testifying against her after
an argument about how Joy was caring for our children
led to Joyce seeking justice for the children had died
under her mother's care.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
And we thought we would wrap up this part one
with the inspiration for this episode. A news item that
Samantha saw and brought to my attention. Recently, a man
in Colorado alerted the police that he'd found a mummified
body at quote some type of shrine. The body was
in case in a sleeping bag and Christmas lights, glitter, makeup,
circled eye sockets that appeared to be empty. The man
(40:34):
who brought this to the attention of the police. Was
a follower of Love Has Won, a religious group often
described as a cult led by Amy Carlson or Amy
Carlson or the quote Mother God. Her body was believed
to be transported from California to Colorado. Seven members of
Love Has Won were charged with abuse of a corpse
(40:55):
and child abuse. Recent reports suggests no foul play, that
she was in poor health and drink a lot. Many
followers believe that she had quote ascended. She herself claims
that when she died, she would ascend to the fifth dimension.
Carlson founded Love Has Won around two thousand and six,
leaving behind her children to do so. She called it
a quote spiritual organization, and it was heavily informed by
(41:17):
New Age movements and ideas. The group offered items like
medicinal supplements and colloidal silver alongside sessions promising spiritual ascension.
At the head of it all was Carlson, who assured
she could talk with angels, that she could cure cancer,
she could usher loved ones to other dimensions, or have
a great awakening for lost loved ones. Before the official
(41:39):
website went down, Carlson asserted on it that her past
lives included Marilyn Monroe and Jesus Christ, and that she
was on her quote five hundred and thirty fourth reincarnation
in my quest to recover my beloved planet. The cult
was very active online and that's one of the ways
that they targeted new followers. She lived with local followers
and one big house, but estimates put membership at thousands
(42:02):
when counting online members. Carlson engaged in several of the
abusive methods of control we've mentioned, and allegedly only let
members sleep four hours a day. There's also not too
much out there about this one, but some said that
the group made headlines recently when fourteen followers, including Carlson,
refused to adhere to MASK guidelines in Hawaii and appropriated
(42:22):
the culture, with Carlson claiming she was the Hawaiian Goddess
of fire, and police escorted them off the island. As
of this recording, officials are still waiting for the toxicology
report on her and to positively id the body, so
this is all ongoing right now. Her family claims that
towards the end, she was being brainwashed by her own
cult and other members of it.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Right, and I believe Vice has a documentary that they
did of the cult a while back, so it's interesting
to see if you want to watch any of that.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, like we said, almost all of these have something
like a documentary or podcast out there. And not to
hammer this point home, but I think it's worth hammering
home that people still argue about whether or not all
of these constitutors cults and what why we label things
as cults, and so I know we were using cult
(43:13):
kind of interchangeably throughout, but just very very aware and
acknowledge that that is it's a ongoing conversation. Well, in
the meantime, this was only part one, and we have
some more for you in part two, so keep an
eye out for that. In the meantime, if you would
like to contact us, you can. You can email us
atuff Medium, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com, or you
(43:34):
can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. You
can also find us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never
Told You. Thanks. It's always to our super producer Christina,
thank you, and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I
Never Told You is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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