February 15, 2025 • 50 mins
Laughter is a social behavior that communicates many things, from flirting to discomfort to joy, and in the case of women, has long drawn criticism and judgement. In this classic, learn more about why we laugh and the penalization, fear-mongering and feminist reclamation of women's laughter in this episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to stuff I've never told you a production
of iHeartRadio, and today we are bringing back a classic
around women's laughter.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Because as the stress has built.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Up for me, I have noticed that I am laughing
a lot more, including in our episodes. It's something I'm
trying to stop doing as much. But it's difficult because
it's something we've talked about this before. You and I
both kind of do it when we're feeling anxious or
(00:54):
like there's nothing we can do. Sometimes it's just a
social cueue I'm listening to you, let me laugh. But
it is something that is highly judged in women, which
is what we talked about in this episode. It was
one of the first as I discussed. It was one
of the first critiques I got from a male listener.
(01:17):
Of course, you giggle way too much. So I just
thought I would bring this back because I have noticed it.
If you've noticed it as well. I'm stressed. I'm just stressed.
I'm trying.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Okay, it's better than us crying. What do you want
us to do? Cry or laugh?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Laugh or cry both at the same time?
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Perhaps, well, please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, This is
Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff I've never told you,
protector of iHeart Radio. So before we get into this,
(02:05):
one very quick content warning where you're gonna have some
brief discussion of rape culture and mental health.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Nothing to you in depth, but just to put that
out there.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And today we are talking about laughter and the history
of women laughing, the judgment around women laughing, the feminist
reclaiming of women laughing, and we're also going to briefly
touch on why we laugh and what it could signal
with all of that. Samantha, how do you feel about
your laugh?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Oh? I hate it?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, my laugh gets really loud, so it's not super
loud that you can pick it out. But if it's
a dead silent moment, I don't just giggle. I do
a yelp first, yeah, and then it goes into whatever
the rest of the thing is. If I'm having one
of those moments where I'm having an uncontrollable laughter, I
(02:56):
definitely snort, and because I can't, I can't breathe. That's
the level I am so I hate hearing myself laugh.
And I tried one time to really cultivate into being
like a girly cute laugh. Ray, I couldn't do it,
just didn't happen. I was like, well, I am who
I am? So that there it is?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
What about you? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I also, I will say I have mixed feelings about
my laugh because I feel like I don't have a.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Very feminine laugh either.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
But then that now that I'm older and I think
about that, I'm like, well, okay, what.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Does that say. We are going to talk about that
in a minute.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
However, I will say a lot of people at our
office are very complimentary of my laugh, and it's very
sweet of them, and it's I'm still very self conscious
of it, because I guess either way, when you draw
attention to something, it makes it put to you in
your head about it. And this is one of those
episodes that as we talk about it, I'm very conscious
of as yes, I know, I know. And that's one
(04:08):
of the things we're going to talk about, is like
all these different reasons that we do laugh. And I'm
somebody that I laugh a lot. I laugh a lot,
and I think for anyone listening that is no surprise.
Some of my nicknames are Giggles, Gigs, and bright.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Side because I laughed so much.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
We who calls you these names? Because I've never heard this,
I an say this to you, so just curious.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I have other friends, Samantha, but yes, no you have it, No,
you have it. And Samantha, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
My Dungeons and Dragons character's name, one of them, her
name is. Her name is gigs on Tank And you're
very suspicious of this name.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
That is that person tried to call me on sky
Paul's like, Nope, I will not take your dick pics.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It was just me. It was just me. But yeah,
I laugh easily for all sorts of reasons.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
My mom used to joke my giggle box would get
turned over because I would just laugh and laugh and laughing.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I couldn't stop laughing.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
And this is also one of the things I get
critiqued on the most as a host, and especially when
I was a new host, I'd get messages like, no
one could take you seriously. You sound like a little
girl at a slumber party who's snuck in to her
dad's liquor cabinet.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
I remember that one very well.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
That's a lot of specific like why did you need
to go all of those words? That was unnecessary?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Right? Yes, I think it was.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, a lot of really condescending sexist language like that,
especially like being a little girl or something.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, And nowadays I get those messages far less because
I feel like those people have left, those mostly dudes,
to be honest, have left. But I still you'll get
really insecure about it anytime you do again, anytime you
do an episode like this, filler language is another one
where you could become.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
More and more aware of it. It gets more and
more like.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
You get more and more judgmental about it about how
much you do something. And I do want to emphasize
every time we do episodes like this, it's not some weird,
passive aggressive message to you, the lovely listeners, because you
are genuinely lovely and I honestly do get if people
laugh too much and that annoys you. Though as always,
you can just disengage. You don't have to listen to
(06:32):
something you don't want to try. Do I have to
comment on it, But it does turn out there is
a long history of censoring and judging women's laughter, right,
actually really fascinating.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I'm very excited to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I will say the same is true with tears when
it comes to women. I was thinking about this and
just any kind of emotion we might show. There's a
lot of judgment around it.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
If you're having too much fun, then you're annoying. You're
too sad about it than you are. You just can't
handle it. You too sensitives, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Both of them are dismissed as you were being essentially
a little girl, right.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, but speaking of I just told you this story,
you did. I once was scolded at Universal Theme Parks
in Orlando for laughing too much by a fellow dressed.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
As an elf. I was at amusement park. I've never
forgotten it. It's really funny now.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
He definitely dressed me down in front of a whole
crowd of people.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Right, it's a whole crew of you, right, just having
a good old time. He just like went off to
after all of y'all.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, he did for laughing too much.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
And it's not like we were being drunk fools or anything.
We just were laughing and having fun, too much fun.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
How dare you ad amusement park?
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Too much? Amusement too much?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So I did want to briefly touch on why we laugh, which,
as we discussed in the why we dream episode.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
It's still kind of We're not totally.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Sure, but as early as three months old, babies do
start laughing. There are a couple of reasons that women
and all of us laugh, although there are some that
are unique to women, which we're going to touch on.
To communicate camaraderie, connection, cooperation, joy, humor, sadness.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
In response to an.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Awkward or painful moment, people are thirty times more likely
to laugh in a group, which demonstrates the social nature
of it, which scientists think it's a big social thing
of like communicating, right, something.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
About how you feel or how you vibe within the group.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I feel like it's very contagious too.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Oh yeah, I mean we talked about that a little
bit when we were talking about slumber parties and I
was saying that that game I would play tummy haha.
The whole point was once somebody actually started laughing, you
would all start laughing.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Yes, I think that's a big part of like TikTok. Again,
I'm talking about TikTok, but a lot of the videos
that I've seen has been something like contagious laughter or
something along those lines. And I will say little baby
giggles that are truly enjoying life get to go and sometimes.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
For sure, but yeah, I mean it's hard not to
at least smile. Yes, if somebody's really truly expressing joy.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
This joy just say so. Laughter is believed to have
potential health benefits, and I think we've all kind of
heard this, including as a stress reliever, which is one
reason for things like laugh yoga. And I was thinking
about this too because I was like, my neighbor does
crying yoga, but I've never heard or do the laughing yoga.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Should ask about.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Research suggests that people who laugh more have a lower
risk of cardiovascular illness.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
It's interesting, yeah, and I think that goes in line
with a lot of things we've talked about where stress
does cause health issues. So if laughter is believe to
reduce stress, then it makes sense they would have at
least somewhat of an impact, maybe not a huge impact
on these other things. Recent studies have found that across
(10:17):
cultures and continents, people can pick up on fake laughter.
These studies also found that fake laughter can be useful
in terms of continuing or facilitating conversation, so it's not
necessarily always a bad thing. Surveys have also found that
women prefer telling jokes to smaller groups of people and
even more so small groups of women as compared to men,
who prefer bigger crowds to tell their jokes, and many
(10:40):
speculate this might be at least part of the reason
the women have no sense of humor thing got started
is because men don't see women joke as often because
they prefer to tell jokes in smaller groups and more
likely to women, which I thought was interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, yes, and.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Then we did want to talk about the use of
laughter in flirting and right also it's roll in rape culture.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
So plenty of recent studies caught the public's attention claiming
that yes, humor is what women really want in men,
I love the funny man, and yes this is heteronormative certainly.
In researching this, most of the top results were things
like what does it mean when a woman laughs? How
to tell if a woman is fake laughing? And one
of the reasons this is believed to be the case
(11:26):
is that in the case you will have fun with
this person, I will say, and I think we're about
to get into it. I had a very long sexist conversation,
meaning like he was being sexist and almost punched him
in the face. A conversation with a dude about how
he knows that a girl likes him because she will
(11:46):
laugh at his jokes and appreciate what he says, and
to the point that I'm like, he made it seem
that women only laugh because of these reasons and all
women fake it and I had to look at them
and we're like, no, that's not well, that's I think
I made the conversation. Well, that's that's more about you
(12:07):
and how you're not funny and you know this, right,
and so that is your radar and maybe you should
work on your jokes and your personality. Yeah, and we
got into it. Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
But it reminds me of when we were talking about
the whole women can't have an orgasm thing, where it's like, right,
I think this might say more about you exactly, but
that is that is a very we hear that a lot, right,
is you know women are going to laugh harder at
(12:40):
jokes that aren't funny from men to show interest.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
This makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
But if what you're saying is I don't have to
be funny, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
That might be a slightly different thing.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Also, it may come to the point and I have
done this, and I'm sure when we talk about it
more women would say I have faked laughed it hopes
to avoid a confrontation from you. Yes, And so I'm
just gonna pretend like I'm amused by you and move
on and really try to get away. But I'm gonna
be like, that's so funny, i gotta do a thing
over there.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I think I've told this story before, but one time
I was in college and somebody I was at a
bar and somebody grabbed my ass and I turned and laughed,
and I like, back the wave. I was laughing, and
I like, I look back on it now and I'm
so ashamed. But I'm also like, what else was I
gonna do? Right, I'm surprised.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
For one dis mechanism and be like okay, yeahs oh.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
God, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
But the I think it was within the past two
years that study came out that said, you know women.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I think it might have been.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Specific to the UK, but it was very It caught
a lot of headlines everywhere where. It was like women,
funniness is the most important trade, or the most attractive
trade or whatever. And they do think that's because it's
a signal that you can have fun with someone, you
can out laugh with someone. As always with those studies,
though it's you know, social things that are hard to quantify.
(14:01):
For sure, I like laughing with a person, for sure.
That's also true after this, Yes, many afflirting articles advise
(14:22):
women how and when to laugh to you attract men,
and yes, this how to laugh.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I was thinking about this.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
If you look at words you used to describe men's laughter,
you'll see a lot of words like boisterous or loud
or like you know, from the gut or from the stomach,
while for women it's a lot of times words like tittering,
bell like giggling, a lot smaller and like quote dainty sounds.
And that kind of goes back to what we were
talking about earlier, where I've got a bunch of different laughs.
(14:50):
But I'm generally a pretty loud laugher as well, and
for a while I did feel like I needed to
contain it and quiet it down and control it more
and be more quote lady like with my laughter, which
is interesting.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
But okay.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Conversely, the male fear of being rejected and even laughed
at by women is something that comes up a lot
in conversations around rape culture, and this is not a
new thing.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Emma B.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Phelps testified in an eighteen ninety three New Haven divorce case, quote,
she laughed at her husband and he knocked her senseless.
In eighteen ninety seven, a man allegedly blew himself up
with dynamite after a woman refused his proposal of marriage,
laughing at him. The Baltimore Sun wrote the man quote
had a dynamite bomb with him and threatened that if
(15:40):
the woman refused him, he would blow himself to pieces.
She laughed at him, and he went to the stoneyard
a block distant and killed himself. In nineteen oh three,
Alice Hineger was murdered quote with a monkey wrinch, because
she laughed at a man when he pressed her to
marry him.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I think that's more to say about men and fragile
ego more so than the laughter. But yeah, I've definitely
seen where for women, You're correct, it's either seen as
being really condescendingly like giggling like a little girl, or
being seen as a witch hickling and or you know,
trying to bully someone or demoralize someone it's one or
(16:19):
the other. It seems, it seems so. In nineteen oh five,
Virginia Wolfe wrote about women's laughter quote light lightning, it
triples them up and leaves the bones bear. And of
course Margaret at What's famous quote, men are afraid that
women will laugh at them, and women are afraid men
will kill them, which, again yes, Nancy Dowd's survey The
Man in Question found that women report their greatest fear
(16:41):
is rape and murder, while men's greatest fear is being
laughed at. And I've heard this a lot actually, And
then in nineteen twenty two, Helen Roland wrote, a man
will forgive his wife for committing robbery or murder or
breaking the Ten Commandments, yet threaten to leave her for
laughing at the wrong moment. Yeah, is you can see,
like I think I've seen many a scene just recently
(17:04):
even where if a woman laughs in this defense then
they are like, first of all, what are you laughing at?
And then somehow abused.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yes. Yes, And we're going to get into this more
in a minute.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
But it's very different how we judge women and men
historically based on laughing at the wrong moment. And I
you know, we just had Halloween and I just watched
Practical Magic, and that's why Jimmy hit Jilly in Practical
Magic because she laughed at him about a donut.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
It's like, oh, the research and true life coming.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Together, I will say, now i'm thinking about it. I
knew the one way that I could win an argument
with my brother was to laugh at him really and
it would anger him to no end and I would
just walk away. We're ready form to bounce on me
mm hm, no real fights. Like it wasn't. It was
(18:00):
right at each other, but like that's I remember that
as thinking like, this is what's gonna bother him.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, it has been, and it's very effective as a
tool defiance, and we're going to get into that more too.
But I've definitely had that thought as well. If I
get in a bigger argument and I'm like, you know,
really burn this person up if I start laughing what
they're saying, right, Yeah, And that's part of the as
we've discussed before, using comedy as this sort of political
(18:27):
satire and weapon in that manner, and that's one of
the things which is a good segue into what we're
talking about next. Which is trauma and laughing in the
face of like something that's painful or dark for me
is easier to handle, especially news if it's presented in
the kind of a satirical or funny way, just because
(18:49):
it's so often is.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Pretty grim, pretty grim.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
But yeah, as we discussed in our Trauma mini series,
laughter is sometimes utilized as a coping mechan in the
face of trauma and grief.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I know, it's definitely a coping mechanism for me.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
There wasn't as much information as I thought there would
be out there on this, but I did find some
articles that said laughter promotes resilience in the face of
stress and illness. It is something that you know, historically
people have used to almost defiantly, to reclaim joy in
the face of all these horrible circumstances. And I mean,
when I think about it as someone who does laugh
(19:28):
a lot, like one, that's sort of my that's how
I am. And two it is a way of being like, Okay,
I can I can still find something to laugh at,
or it can still be in what for me is.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Normal and for me, laughing is pretty normal.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
But it's also like I just like I've said a lot,
I feel a lot of pressure. And I've been socialized
a lot to make people happy and to kind of
be that person that cheers people up. And that's hard
to let go, even in the face of right or
maybe even as especially in the face of when you're
trying to hold on to something right of like hard
(20:04):
things of grief and trauma and you're just trying to
find like something from your quote, like I like to
call it the before and after of mine, before of
what who I felt like I was then and then
and all this stuff with trauma and you feel like, oh,
all your foundation is shaken, and I would just try
to grab onto these like pieces and deal with it
(20:27):
that way.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
And we've talked about this previously, and not that this
is an actual scientific statement, but I know this is
very to me as a person on the outside seemingly
middle child syndrome to keep the piece, to keep the happiness,
and you are a middle child, so that none of
that is to a surprising a but I think like
another part of that, when you're talking about your own
trauma and the fact that you laugh that's your response
(20:51):
and I do too. I do too. I actually make
sarcastic jokes, which we're going to get into just a second,
but the fact that many people respond when they specifically
are about their own trauma, which is what we were
talking about in this episode. We were like, let's do
this episode because I was very angry because we did
get a critique on one of our reviews, because I
keep making the stupid mistake of looking at the reviews.
(21:11):
Most of them are so kind and so beautiful and
thank you so much, but the few that come in
says negative. I'm like, why do you even take the time, Like,
just go ahead and put the one star and move on.
I don't care. None of the things that you're critiquing
us for we can change. I can't change this about myself, sorry,
And Adie can't change this about herself. Sorry. But one
of those was about, like you are laughing during serious stuff.
(21:33):
Y'all need to get over this. This is so childish
type of thing. And we hey, we've already told you
at the very beginning this is how we respond. We
probably said it in that episode, whatever episode you're responding to,
because we talk about a lot of traumatic things, let's
be will b, you're also not laughing at other people's trauma.
You're literally talking about your own experiences and your response
(21:55):
is to giggle, to try to handle it and just
try to maintain. And again, I think, I think one
of the things that infuriate me in any of those
comments or any of these levels, is this is what
helped us survive. Why would you come in here and
try to take that away when obviously that is a
strength for us. You may not see it for that way,
You may not see it for yourself, and you may
(22:17):
be able to handle it on a whole different level.
I don't know. But if it's not hurting you, it's
not hurting us, and it's something that can keep us
on a steady way without completely going overboard in whatever route.
And that could be unhealthy. Why is it bothering you?
Why is it bothering you? And I think that just
angers me to so much that we have to criticize
(22:38):
other people's handling of trauma when it's not unhealthy.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Right, Yeah, And I mean we did talk about that
a lot, especially when we talked about grief as well,
and how people feel like grief should look a certain
way and if it doesn't look that way, then you're
not grieving enough for you're grieving too much, you're giving
the wrong way, and I think you know, as was
(23:05):
pretty much everything we talk about. It's hard to unpack
and untangle all of the social factors that go into
why you do a certain thing.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I think that for.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I imagine a lot of women who use laughter as
a coping mechanism, but for anybody, but for women, there's also,
like I'm sure I know you've experienced this as well.
When you do open up and you share something that's
really dark and really painful with somebody, it's clear they
are really uncomfortable, and then you say something funny or
(23:36):
something to lighten the mood because it's just silent, and
it's that's obvious the other person doesn't know what to say,
and I don't fault them for that, Like sometimes there's
nothing to say, right, but you do. I'm somebody who
also struggles with silence a.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Lot of times.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
So if it's like goes silent, somebody's miserable and like,
oh wow, they didn't Okay, well let's flash bit, let's
make this better. It's like what you're I mean, in
a much lighter way. It's like when you're on an
awkward day and you're like Wow, this is awkward. Let's
laugh about it, because right, it's really.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Awkward, right, I mean that is exactly so when we
talk about social work, I would talk about the fact, hey,
you don't want to hang out with a lot of
social workers if you do, if you're really sensitive and
don't have a dark sense of humor, because we are twisted,
like immediately, this is the way we cope, and we
have to joke about things that are really inappropriate and
really like yes, we outside of that reil, we're like,
(24:34):
this is really bad. We shouldn't do this. But if
we didn't, I think we would constantly be on like
a wave of crashing and almost wanted to like, you know,
just go to sleep forever because it is so dark
and it gets so dark, and because it weighs on
you so heavily, like there's nothing to do but to
make an obvious statement, maybe inappropriate to those who hopefully
(24:55):
would understand, and just trying to move on because it
is so dark and so twisted that you can't if
you can't laugh about it for just a minute, then
there's a whole Even though in your mind you're we
have to do all of these things, but I need
a minute. I need a break from the depth and
the darkness of this really really dark, really really heavy
situation to being able to be like, well, at least
(25:18):
SO and SO didn't do this part too, Like that's
the caveat to it. And even though on the outside
they're like, holy crap, what why would you do that,
it's kind of like, well, because this is how we survive.
And again, when we're on in our own trauma, whether
it's to fill the silence, whether it's to make other
people comfortable because you don't know what else to do,
(25:39):
it's kind of the same thing. It's like people will
get really uncomfortable with race stuff, and instead of accepting
the fact, oh you're racist in as, it was like,
you don't know how to act around brown people. So
this is what you're doing. I would make jokes about
myself in a manner I'm like, I really shouldn't have
had to do that, but it's awkward and I don't
know what else to do but to make you laugh
and make myself laugh. I hope this makes it better,
(26:01):
although it just fits into your racism and prejudice and
stereotypical ideas of me.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
So yeah, yeah, And I mean, that's a good point
to make, kind of going back to what you were
saying a little bit earlier, is you know, we're laughing
at our own trauma or too perhaps make other people
more comfortable with our own trauma.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
But that's different than like making jokes. You have no
right to be making right, very very very different or
laughing like.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I did read and this is complicated, and I don't
want to go into it now, but I will mention it.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I did read a.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Couple of articles about basically people grieving, but on opposite
ends of something like perhaps somebody their son had killed
somebody else's child in a drunk driving accident and the
mother of the child that's i'd laughing at the funeral
or something like. That's a bit different than what we're discussing, right,
(26:55):
I suppose, like I understand it, but that that's that's
not the same as what we're just.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Sorting right now.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Again and again, that's what we were talking about to
when it comes to us processing our own trauma and
if it's not to the point that it is hurting
someone else. So when I say processing on trauma, those
who delve into alcohol or go into some type of
addictive personality, trait and habit. That's a whole different conversation.
(27:25):
I'm not saying I encourage that. But when we're talking
about laughing to process our own trauma, that's the whole again.
How is this hurting you? Why are you needing to
speak on it? And also why are you judging our
own trauma? Like that's a double memy on that in itself.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, and I do think it's interesting in something we've
talked about before. But when you're in a public sphere,
some of those things get amplified because you're supposed to
be even if you're doing serious topics, you are supposed
to be entertaining in some way while also getting across
at you cations, acasual content, and when you're talking about
(28:03):
something serious, that can be really tricky, and especially if
you do have your own trauma in your way, you
act your own trauma on top of that.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
And that's not to say there's.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Been plenty of episodes where I feel like there was
hardly any laughter involved, but right, you know, when there's
also that level of it if you're like, oh, this
is too sad, and what's going to listen to it?
Because all it is is sad, I've got to do something.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
It's usually my episodes. I'm like, so I want to
talk about this really bad thing. Let's go, And I'm
sorry everybody starts like sitting in the corner in the dark.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah, And I think that's a balance that is it's
really difficult to pull off. But I do like going
back to what I said where it's easier for me
to handle darker topics if there is some humor in there, right,
And I don't think that's wrong or bad. I think
there's a way to do it, in a way not
to do it, but I think it makes sense that
(28:57):
you need almost like a palatee. There's something to get
stop your heart from like just getting so so sad
and heavy that you don't want to take in any
more information, right, Yeah, which was all a pandemic gas
either it is. We have so many examples of it.
Just hear this episode. I will say one of my
(29:18):
triggers actually is loud male laughing. That's something I've had
to work with, but like really loud that can get me.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
M hmm.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Interesting. There's a lot of figures like that. So again,
dark humor has been shown to improve mental health among
those who participate in stressful job like nursing and social work.
And I tell you, we lived off of dark jokes
to the point that I couldn't be around normal people
(29:51):
because I realized I cannot be socializing with people who
do not understand what this is. When I make a
comment about a case that I'm going through and they
gave me the blank stare of horrified looks, and I'm like, oh,
y'all don't know anything about the okay, cool, I'm just
(30:12):
I'm gonna sit in the corner. Because yes, it takes.
It's especially when you have a job that you really
delve into and it impacts other people. So social service
is nursing and teaching. It's really hard not to see
some type of or at least having to cause inside jokes.
I guess I'm having to have inside jokes or such,
(30:32):
which again not always appropriate and I'm not And if
it's racial any of that, that's not what we're talking
about at all. We're talking about human drama, human trauma,
human darkness, that's what we're talking about. It definitely, yeah,
it definitely helps you just to be able to wake
up the next day. That's where it gets down to
(30:53):
and there's a commaderate to that, yeah, that you have
to have.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, Yeah, and I think I know with my nursing friends,
I've heard a lot about that of being during this
pandemic and being a stress reliever. But they've noticed like
their humor has gotten significantly darker.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah, during all of this. Yeah, I think we had.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
I had a moment when I was working in CPS
investigating child abuse. I had several nursing friends and we
would just share war stories. Let's talk about what was
worse to make ourselves feel better that their job was
worse than our job. It was not pretty.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Speaking of We did briefly want to touch on the
film Joker with Joaquin Phoenix, just because we were talking
about the different perceptions people have of men and women
laughing when it comes to things like trauma and that.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
You know that movie, And we're gonna get circle back
to this.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
But I know there's like an ableism narrative there, because
if you haven't seen it, it's sort of a disorder
he has, right, that's he laughs.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
So yeah, it's called pseudo bulber effect or PBA, and
that's what he was dealing with.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah, and I mean laughter is frequently a tool writers
do use in things.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Things like that to indicate like like villainous behavior. And
then this one's got like also the ableism there, right,
this is actually something he's dealing with. But just the
way people reacted to that and that movie versus us.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
You know, talking about our own trauma just interesting.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
From what I remember from the movie, stress caused him
to laugh, and so people didn't understand what was happening
because I know, like stress, Like for me, we talked
about stress causes me to be really sleepy, so I
guess it's similar to that effect.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Obviously I don't want to be compared to the joker necessarily.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
But.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Just yeah, I mean, I guess we know that laughter
is a response to stress and trauma. It does make
people uncomfortable sometimes, I think, but it seems that the
reaction you get when it's women is much more like dismissive,
I guess, either dismissive if it's trauma, or like angry
(33:34):
if it's related to dating. Yeah, just to you know,
I feel like we understand that this is a thing,
but we're judging people for it and we're judging differently
based on gender, which is interesting. So we did want
(34:08):
to go into a history of women laughing because, as
we mentioned in the intro, there's been a long history
of judging women's laughter and sometimes even criminalizing it. In
Ancient Greece, Aristotle war it gets the pitfalls of laughter,
writing quote, most people enjoy amusement and jesting more than
they should, as is a kind of mockery, and loggivers
forbid some kinds of mockery. Perhaps they ought to have
(34:29):
forbidden some kinds of jesting. God seems to be on
the same page. In the Old Testament, laughing at God
was not at all tolerated, and even when God laughs,
it's an act of hostility and fury, not a good
thing at all. There's one instance where a group of
boys laugh at a prophet, So God six two she
bears on them and kills like almost all of them.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
I believe right.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
They're making fun of the prophet, though that's a little different,
and then throwing things and taunting him and trying to
hurt him. So that's a little bit of f than
just laughing at just saying so. During the Middle Ages,
women's laughter was viewed as unruly, course and something associated
with the body and not at all ladylike, as in fact,
(35:13):
the whole tee covering of the mouth is what you
would often see represented. Women were advised not to laugh,
that it was uncouth, despite that female characters and literature
ranging from the thirteenth to the sixteenth century often engaged
in laughter. In Lisa Profetti's work Women in Laughter in
Medieval Comic Literature, she argues that laughter was a way
(35:36):
to talk back to the views around women at the time.
That jokes and humor around women which made women laugh
also illustrated to the limited movement agency women had at
the time. Often female characters were written by men as
targets to be made fun of, mocked, and kept in
their place. In this way, women who made jos and
laughed could be viewed as somewhat subversive. And I will say,
(36:00):
think about lay miss. The whole thing is a pretty
big tragedy. But the two funny characters was the woman
who was essentially seen as a hag and then her
husband who they were both crooks essentially were the funny
bit to the entire movie. Everybody else was like, yeah, drama, drama, yes,
(36:21):
but those are the characters are seen being funny or
made fun of.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Right English philosopher Thomas Hobbs, you'd laughing as a political
tool and weapon. He wrote, quote men laugh at the
infirmities of others, for when aes is broken upon ourselves,
of friends, and whose dishonor we participate, we.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Never laugh thereat.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
In puritanical New England, a woman laughing could be downright
and dangerous, sometimes believe to be a sign of her
covenant with the devil, and particularly during times of prayer
are fasting. One such woman was Susan Martin. Records indicate
that she was executed not only for breastfeeding Satan with
her quote witch is tits, but also for laughing at
(37:01):
quote such falling during her trial. So I believe they
told her this was her charge, and she laughs, and
so they're like ah, which reminds me of The Bitch,
which we did a feminist movie Friday On. But the
way that movie ends is she sort of accepted being
a witch and being in Satan's govenant, I guess, and
she's laughing, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I know, like in several of the movies I've seen,
I can't remember like laughing equates to orgasm as well, yeah,
which is also a no no oh yeah, as well
having a fit in hysteria and all that is somewhat
related to laughter as one of those terms in itself,
so that's interesting. Two women in Chicago were arrested in
(37:45):
eighteen ninety nine for laughing, and in the words of
a local newspaper, it says the trouble was caused by
a new joke on the kissing bug. I love it,
what's the kissing bug? I know? With the arresting officer claiming,
and then they both last so loud they awoke the
entire neighborhood. However, the presiding justice was not impressed or concerned. Well,
(38:08):
I guess it certainly is a joke to arrested person
for laughing, and both women were discharged after that. But wow, wow,
I just.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Don't want to know this joke about the kissing bug.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
I need to know about this kissing bug.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I know.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Etiquette vaniels around the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries instructed
women to limit their laughter, that people would look down
on them for it, and that it was even potentially
dangerous a sign of female hysterics. A nineteen oh two
obituary ran with the headline death from laughter, and it
described a woman who visited the theater to quote enjoy
a comedy and instead furnished a tragedy after she became
(38:47):
convulsed with merriment.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Marriment even better.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
After a romantic suitor told a woman a joke in
nineteen oh seven about dentistry, she couldn't stop laughing until
she was given some anesthetics. When she came to, she
said she couldn't remember the joke, and out of caution,
no one told it to her. However, several articles claimed
it win as follows. A man went to the dentist
to have a toothpold and it hurt oh doctor. The
(39:14):
patient said, if only humans were born without teeth, The
doctor replied, they.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Are, you know, classic classic.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Here's another example from nineteen oh eight. A widow named
Anna Farrer attended a dinner party where someone shared a
funny joke with her. She started laughing so hard she
was quote unable to stop the laughing paroxysm, and quote
died before a physician could be summoned. The joke wasn't
printed for safety. Can you imagine being this person who
told that joke really killed well, they didn't want anybody
(39:50):
else to read it and have the same reaction, which
reminds me of the Mony Fipop.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Skit the joke that kills, the killer joke.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Oh, it was like a World War Two skits where
the British Army just like, after months and months of
practicing and assembling a joke in many pieces so people
wouldn't read it because it's dangerous In German, they constructed
the perfect killer joke and they would go around. The
(40:22):
soldiers would go around shouting it at German officers because
they didn't understand it so it wouldn't kill them, and
the German officers would.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Laugh and then drop dead. But then at the end.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Of course they're like, all I want to hear this,
so what's so good about it? And they say it
in English and then they all die as well.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Die nice.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, So that kind of reminds me of the Mary
Popin scene where they're all laughing and they start floating
because they can't stop laughing and they're talking about someone
floats away and they all tell jokes to each other.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah. I haven't seen that movie in so long, but
I don't remind that.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Yeah, that's so. A lot of these advice columns and
cautionary tales were coming out more and more women were
entering the public sphere and attending more public forms of
entertainment more regularly. So just so you know, ladies, laughing
can kill you, exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
You better not do it. Better not now. Of note,
there are.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Cases of men laughing at women, typically white women, in
areas where their patronage was valuable, and men laughing at
them made them feel unsafe and being arrested or ejected
from public venue, so that did happen as well. Interestingly,
women may have participated in highly derided sobbing clubs at
the time, and men's laughter was often seen as something
(41:39):
that was just or good in the face of their sniveling,
as it was called, and particularly laughing at entertainment geared
towards women, which was incidentally where men were most likely
to be punished for it. Again, because people didn't want
to lose the people who the patrons who were paying
to see these things, and in Puritanical America, laughing at
a tragedy was viewed as something akin to asin that
(42:03):
was real bad, a mind frame that carried over into
more modern times kind of relates to some of the
stuff we've been talking about. During the late nineteenth century,
there was a spate of articles claiming that across the
country men were laughing blasphemously during church services, and some
of them did get arrested.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
You know, I'm thinking more and more about laughter being
used like it's a sin, Like when you see demonic possessions,
they're also laughing. And then I know that there are
several diagnoses where they talk about inappropriate laughing because it
doesn't fit the emotions. So therefore maybe they are ABC
and CS of kind of sociopathic diagnoses, which start to
(42:43):
thinking about that.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yeah, yeah, So where we are now in our more
modern times, women's laughter is the subject of penalization and
also a feminist thought.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Mm hm. So just in twenty seventeen, a code protester
named Desiree Ferouse, sorry if I've mispronounced that, was arrested
after laughing during the confirmation hearing for Jeff Sessions to
become Attorney General after a Republican senator said that Sessions
had quote an extensive record of treating all Americans fairly
(43:17):
under the law, not gonna lie. I would laugh too,
She potentially faced a two thousand dollars fine and up
to a year in jail, but the judge ultimately ruled
that laughing was not adequate grounds for guilt. In that quote,
it was disconcerting that the government made the case in
closing arguments that the laughter in and of itself was sufficient. Yes,
(43:39):
it is disconcerting. The government motion filed against her claimed
that she was arrested because she sought to impede and
disrupt then Senator sessions confirmation hearing by drawing attention away
from the hearing itself and directing it instead toward the
defendant's perception of the nominees racist views, policies, and voting record.
(44:01):
I'm not laughing because of the way he said, But
I'm like, but it did, and all she did was laugh.
So for you to take that as that thinks again,
says more about you, whoever file these charges, than it
is us about her.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Professor of law the University of Michigan, Catherine A. McKinnon
wrote of this incident, criminally charging and potentially sentencing missus
Eru's for a brief spontaneous injection of political laughter as
disruptive when it at least so clearly was not looks
like an overly thin skin reflex reaction to a woman
appropriating what is usually a masculine form of power, ridicule,
public humiliation by humor, and in this case, political speech
(44:40):
against racism. Of note, the Trump administration was a repeated
offender and punisher.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Of women mocking Trump.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Take their reaction to Melissa McCarthy impersonating Sean Spicer.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
They just flipped out so angry, they were so so
angry of all of snl made me laugh.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
But that's also true.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Yes, this is somewhat reminiscent of a scene from the
nineteen eighty two film A Question of Silence, when three
women laugh loudly and brashly at their own murder trial,
mostly at the premise presented that they lived in a
post sexist society that were on trial after exhiberantly murdering
a shopkeeper who harassed a female shoplifter. The Question of
(45:22):
Silence is a reference to the idea that the marginalized
don't have a voice in the face of a continued injustices,
so defiant laughter is one way of sticking it to
the man and disrupting the status quo. Like I said,
I knew what would make my brother angry, and that
was just laughing.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, yeah, this movie sounds interesting. I had never heard
of it, but I want to check it out now.
And there have been cases of women being arrested and
jailed for disrespecting the dead throughout history as well.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
And of course there.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Is and has been intersections with racism, homophobia, and ableism.
In eighteen ninety eight, the black newspaper The Washington b
wrote it is against the law for a black person
to laugh at a policeman in the street. The following year,
a black woman named Louisa Roberts was fined two dollars
and quote patrolman Hutchinson arrested her for assassing some white women.
Ralph Ellison wrote of a Southern mythology around the quote
(46:15):
laughing barrel of public barrel that black people were meant
to put their head in when they fell at a
laugh coming on. In his essay and Extravagance of Laughter,
he wrote of the power of laughter quote grotesque comedy,
out of the extremes to which whites would go to
keep us in what they considered to be our police.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
These attitudes and discrimination continue to this day. In twenty fifteen,
a group of eleven black women were ejected from a
Napa Valley wine train for laughing too loudly, which led
to the hashtag laughing wild Black. I remember this because
they made this huge scene just because they were enjoying
their time, to the point that even other women were like,
(46:54):
what are they doing. They're at a bachelorette party, nothing's wrong.
Why are you in them off?
Speaker 4 (47:01):
Right?
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Yeah, it's a wine tree tour.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Everybody's drinking and giggling like that's not a bad thing.
That means they had a good time. I mean, why, yes, right.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
At the same time, there's also a long history of
using black laughter and minstrel shows to reassure white audiences
that there was no resentment or danger from black folks.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
Right, you know, that's kind of that conversation of trying
to make white people feel comfortable. So therefore, I'm like,
you know, deprivating comments about being Asian to make the
white people in the room okay, And to the point
that someone was like, oh, you're one of those Asians. Cool,
that's exactly what you said to me, And I was
like what. And I think that was the moment I
(47:45):
realized what I did. I was like, oh, I have
given them permission to be outwardly racist to me crap.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Right, yeah, yeah, And then there's also been a lot
of conversation and judgment around the gay voice and related
the gay laugh. That could be and probably will be
its own episode, but that is also a piece of this.
And then yes, going back to the joke or there's
ableism going on as well in this conversation, as well
(48:13):
as a very clear anxiety of people laughing at the
wrong moment, which, as we've discussed throughout this whole episode, there's.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
So many reasons for why that might be. Right.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Yeah, So all of this points to a history of
censoring women's laughter and the laughter of marginalized groups. It
also points to a history of people finding joy in
the face of trauma and discrimination and depression. Even thinking
about feminism specifically, there's numerous examples of you know, yes,
women aren't funny, feminist buzzkill, can't you take a joke?
(48:48):
Things like that, As was so many things we talk about.
It's such a double edged thing because if you laugh,
then you might get punished for laughing at the wrong
time or offending a man or hurting his ego. If
you don't laugh at their jokes or what they find funny,
then you're a buzzkill.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
You can't take a joke, or you're cold and frigid
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
It is. One thing we didn't get into that we'd
love to hear from listeners about is cultural differences in laughing.
There are a lot of articles around all of this
out of Indian specifically Bollywood, which was really interesting, including
this quote laughter strips the object of power and gives
power to the one who laughs. When stand up comics
make fun of someone or something, their jokes are in
(49:30):
effect criticism and mockery, highlighting a social issue or a
family reality. There's so much too unpack with all of this,
because again there is a line like there are jokes
you can make and jokes you can't.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Are definitely should it.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
But yes, it is like a way to express defiance
in the face of oppression, for sure, and I think
that's why it does. It does have this history of
being punished when marginalized people do it at what people
in power see is the quote wrong time? Yeah, all
(50:06):
of that into so much as always I was, this
is a fastening one to research. Yeah, and listeners We
would love to hear from you any cultural differences you've noticed,
or gender differences you've noticed, anything at all like that,
You can email us. Our email is Stuffidia mom Stuff
at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter
(50:27):
at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram. A Stuff I've
Never Told You Thanks as always here at super producer Christina,
thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've
Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
For more podcasts on iHeartRadio, is the heart Radio
Speaker 2 (50:38):
App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to stuff I've never told you a production
of iHeartRadio, and today we are bringing back a classic
around women's laughter.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Because as the stress has built.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Up for me, I have noticed that I am laughing
a lot more, including in our episodes. It's something I'm
trying to stop doing as much. But it's difficult because
it's something we've talked about this before. You and I
both kind of do it when we're feeling anxious or
(00:54):
like there's nothing we can do. Sometimes it's just a
social cueue I'm listening to you, let me laugh. But
it is something that is highly judged in women, which
is what we talked about in this episode. It was
one of the first as I discussed. It was one
of the first critiques I got from a male listener.
(01:17):
Of course, you giggle way too much. So I just
thought I would bring this back because I have noticed it.
If you've noticed it as well. I'm stressed. I'm just stressed.
I'm trying.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Okay, it's better than us crying. What do you want
us to do? Cry or laugh?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Laugh or cry both at the same time?
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Perhaps, well, please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, This is
Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff I've never told you,
protector of iHeart Radio. So before we get into this,
(02:05):
one very quick content warning where you're gonna have some
brief discussion of rape culture and mental health.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Nothing to you in depth, but just to put that
out there.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And today we are talking about laughter and the history
of women laughing, the judgment around women laughing, the feminist
reclaiming of women laughing, and we're also going to briefly
touch on why we laugh and what it could signal
with all of that. Samantha, how do you feel about
your laugh?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Oh? I hate it?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, my laugh gets really loud, so it's not super
loud that you can pick it out. But if it's
a dead silent moment, I don't just giggle. I do
a yelp first, yeah, and then it goes into whatever
the rest of the thing is. If I'm having one
of those moments where I'm having an uncontrollable laughter, I
(02:56):
definitely snort, and because I can't, I can't breathe. That's
the level I am so I hate hearing myself laugh.
And I tried one time to really cultivate into being
like a girly cute laugh. Ray, I couldn't do it,
just didn't happen. I was like, well, I am who
I am? So that there it is?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
What about you? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I also, I will say I have mixed feelings about
my laugh because I feel like I don't have a.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Very feminine laugh either.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
But then that now that I'm older and I think
about that, I'm like, well, okay, what.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Does that say. We are going to talk about that
in a minute.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
However, I will say a lot of people at our
office are very complimentary of my laugh, and it's very
sweet of them, and it's I'm still very self conscious
of it, because I guess either way, when you draw
attention to something, it makes it put to you in
your head about it. And this is one of those
episodes that as we talk about it, I'm very conscious
of as yes, I know, I know. And that's one
(04:08):
of the things we're going to talk about, is like
all these different reasons that we do laugh. And I'm
somebody that I laugh a lot. I laugh a lot,
and I think for anyone listening that is no surprise.
Some of my nicknames are Giggles, Gigs, and bright.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Side because I laughed so much.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
We who calls you these names? Because I've never heard this,
I an say this to you, so just curious.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I have other friends, Samantha, but yes, no you have it, No,
you have it. And Samantha, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
My Dungeons and Dragons character's name, one of them, her
name is. Her name is gigs on Tank And you're
very suspicious of this name.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
That is that person tried to call me on sky
Paul's like, Nope, I will not take your dick pics.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It was just me. It was just me. But yeah,
I laugh easily for all sorts of reasons.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
My mom used to joke my giggle box would get
turned over because I would just laugh and laugh and laughing.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I couldn't stop laughing.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
And this is also one of the things I get
critiqued on the most as a host, and especially when
I was a new host, I'd get messages like, no
one could take you seriously. You sound like a little
girl at a slumber party who's snuck in to her
dad's liquor cabinet.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
I remember that one very well.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
That's a lot of specific like why did you need
to go all of those words? That was unnecessary?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Right? Yes, I think it was.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, a lot of really condescending sexist language like that,
especially like being a little girl or something.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, And nowadays I get those messages far less because
I feel like those people have left, those mostly dudes,
to be honest, have left. But I still you'll get
really insecure about it anytime you do again, anytime you
do an episode like this, filler language is another one
where you could become.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
More and more aware of it. It gets more and
more like.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
You get more and more judgmental about it about how
much you do something. And I do want to emphasize
every time we do episodes like this, it's not some weird,
passive aggressive message to you, the lovely listeners, because you
are genuinely lovely and I honestly do get if people
laugh too much and that annoys you. Though as always,
you can just disengage. You don't have to listen to
(06:32):
something you don't want to try. Do I have to
comment on it, But it does turn out there is
a long history of censoring and judging women's laughter, right,
actually really fascinating.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I'm very excited to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I will say the same is true with tears when
it comes to women. I was thinking about this and
just any kind of emotion we might show. There's a
lot of judgment around it.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
If you're having too much fun, then you're annoying. You're
too sad about it than you are. You just can't
handle it. You too sensitives, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Both of them are dismissed as you were being essentially
a little girl, right.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, but speaking of I just told you this story,
you did. I once was scolded at Universal Theme Parks
in Orlando for laughing too much by a fellow dressed.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
As an elf. I was at amusement park. I've never
forgotten it. It's really funny now.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
He definitely dressed me down in front of a whole
crowd of people.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Right, it's a whole crew of you, right, just having
a good old time. He just like went off to
after all of y'all.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, he did for laughing too much.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
And it's not like we were being drunk fools or anything.
We just were laughing and having fun, too much fun.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
How dare you ad amusement park?
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Too much? Amusement too much?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So I did want to briefly touch on why we laugh, which,
as we discussed in the why we dream episode.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
It's still kind of We're not totally.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Sure, but as early as three months old, babies do
start laughing. There are a couple of reasons that women
and all of us laugh, although there are some that
are unique to women, which we're going to touch on.
To communicate camaraderie, connection, cooperation, joy, humor, sadness.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
In response to an.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Awkward or painful moment, people are thirty times more likely
to laugh in a group, which demonstrates the social nature
of it, which scientists think it's a big social thing
of like communicating, right, something.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
About how you feel or how you vibe within the group.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I feel like it's very contagious too.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Oh yeah, I mean we talked about that a little
bit when we were talking about slumber parties and I
was saying that that game I would play tummy haha.
The whole point was once somebody actually started laughing, you
would all start laughing.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Yes, I think that's a big part of like TikTok. Again,
I'm talking about TikTok, but a lot of the videos
that I've seen has been something like contagious laughter or
something along those lines. And I will say little baby
giggles that are truly enjoying life get to go and sometimes.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
For sure, but yeah, I mean it's hard not to
at least smile. Yes, if somebody's really truly expressing joy.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
This joy just say so. Laughter is believed to have
potential health benefits, and I think we've all kind of
heard this, including as a stress reliever, which is one
reason for things like laugh yoga. And I was thinking
about this too because I was like, my neighbor does
crying yoga, but I've never heard or do the laughing yoga.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Should ask about.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Research suggests that people who laugh more have a lower
risk of cardiovascular illness.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
It's interesting, yeah, and I think that goes in line
with a lot of things we've talked about where stress
does cause health issues. So if laughter is believe to
reduce stress, then it makes sense they would have at
least somewhat of an impact, maybe not a huge impact
on these other things. Recent studies have found that across
(10:17):
cultures and continents, people can pick up on fake laughter.
These studies also found that fake laughter can be useful
in terms of continuing or facilitating conversation, so it's not
necessarily always a bad thing. Surveys have also found that
women prefer telling jokes to smaller groups of people and
even more so small groups of women as compared to men,
who prefer bigger crowds to tell their jokes, and many
(10:40):
speculate this might be at least part of the reason
the women have no sense of humor thing got started
is because men don't see women joke as often because
they prefer to tell jokes in smaller groups and more
likely to women, which I thought was interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, yes, and.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Then we did want to talk about the use of
laughter in flirting and right also it's roll in rape culture.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
So plenty of recent studies caught the public's attention claiming
that yes, humor is what women really want in men,
I love the funny man, and yes this is heteronormative certainly.
In researching this, most of the top results were things
like what does it mean when a woman laughs? How
to tell if a woman is fake laughing? And one
of the reasons this is believed to be the case
(11:26):
is that in the case you will have fun with
this person, I will say, and I think we're about
to get into it. I had a very long sexist conversation,
meaning like he was being sexist and almost punched him
in the face. A conversation with a dude about how
he knows that a girl likes him because she will
(11:46):
laugh at his jokes and appreciate what he says, and
to the point that I'm like, he made it seem
that women only laugh because of these reasons and all
women fake it and I had to look at them
and we're like, no, that's not well, that's I think
I made the conversation. Well, that's that's more about you
(12:07):
and how you're not funny and you know this, right,
and so that is your radar and maybe you should
work on your jokes and your personality. Yeah, and we
got into it. Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
But it reminds me of when we were talking about
the whole women can't have an orgasm thing, where it's like, right,
I think this might say more about you exactly, but
that is that is a very we hear that a lot, right,
is you know women are going to laugh harder at
(12:40):
jokes that aren't funny from men to show interest.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
This makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
But if what you're saying is I don't have to
be funny, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
That might be a slightly different thing.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Also, it may come to the point and I have
done this, and I'm sure when we talk about it
more women would say I have faked laughed it hopes
to avoid a confrontation from you. Yes, And so I'm
just gonna pretend like I'm amused by you and move
on and really try to get away. But I'm gonna
be like, that's so funny, i gotta do a thing
over there.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I think I've told this story before, but one time
I was in college and somebody I was at a
bar and somebody grabbed my ass and I turned and laughed,
and I like, back the wave. I was laughing, and
I like, I look back on it now and I'm
so ashamed. But I'm also like, what else was I
gonna do? Right, I'm surprised.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
For one dis mechanism and be like okay, yeahs oh.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
God, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
But the I think it was within the past two
years that study came out that said, you know women.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I think it might have been.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Specific to the UK, but it was very It caught
a lot of headlines everywhere where. It was like women,
funniness is the most important trade, or the most attractive
trade or whatever. And they do think that's because it's
a signal that you can have fun with someone, you
can out laugh with someone. As always with those studies,
though it's you know, social things that are hard to quantify.
(14:01):
For sure, I like laughing with a person, for sure.
That's also true after this, Yes, many afflirting articles advise
(14:22):
women how and when to laugh to you attract men,
and yes, this how to laugh.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I was thinking about this.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
If you look at words you used to describe men's laughter,
you'll see a lot of words like boisterous or loud
or like you know, from the gut or from the stomach,
while for women it's a lot of times words like tittering,
bell like giggling, a lot smaller and like quote dainty sounds.
And that kind of goes back to what we were
talking about earlier, where I've got a bunch of different laughs.
(14:50):
But I'm generally a pretty loud laugher as well, and
for a while I did feel like I needed to
contain it and quiet it down and control it more
and be more quote lady like with my laughter, which
is interesting.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
But okay.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Conversely, the male fear of being rejected and even laughed
at by women is something that comes up a lot
in conversations around rape culture, and this is not a
new thing.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Emma B.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Phelps testified in an eighteen ninety three New Haven divorce case, quote,
she laughed at her husband and he knocked her senseless.
In eighteen ninety seven, a man allegedly blew himself up
with dynamite after a woman refused his proposal of marriage,
laughing at him. The Baltimore Sun wrote the man quote
had a dynamite bomb with him and threatened that if
(15:40):
the woman refused him, he would blow himself to pieces.
She laughed at him, and he went to the stoneyard
a block distant and killed himself. In nineteen oh three,
Alice Hineger was murdered quote with a monkey wrinch, because
she laughed at a man when he pressed her to
marry him.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I think that's more to say about men and fragile
ego more so than the laughter. But yeah, I've definitely
seen where for women, You're correct, it's either seen as
being really condescendingly like giggling like a little girl, or
being seen as a witch hickling and or you know,
trying to bully someone or demoralize someone it's one or
(16:19):
the other. It seems, it seems so. In nineteen oh five,
Virginia Wolfe wrote about women's laughter quote light lightning, it
triples them up and leaves the bones bear. And of
course Margaret at What's famous quote, men are afraid that
women will laugh at them, and women are afraid men
will kill them, which, again yes, Nancy Dowd's survey The
Man in Question found that women report their greatest fear
(16:41):
is rape and murder, while men's greatest fear is being
laughed at. And I've heard this a lot actually, And
then in nineteen twenty two, Helen Roland wrote, a man
will forgive his wife for committing robbery or murder or
breaking the Ten Commandments, yet threaten to leave her for
laughing at the wrong moment. Yeah, is you can see,
like I think I've seen many a scene just recently
(17:04):
even where if a woman laughs in this defense then
they are like, first of all, what are you laughing at?
And then somehow abused.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yes. Yes, And we're going to get into this more
in a minute.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
But it's very different how we judge women and men
historically based on laughing at the wrong moment. And I
you know, we just had Halloween and I just watched
Practical Magic, and that's why Jimmy hit Jilly in Practical
Magic because she laughed at him about a donut.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
It's like, oh, the research and true life coming.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Together, I will say, now i'm thinking about it. I
knew the one way that I could win an argument
with my brother was to laugh at him really and
it would anger him to no end and I would
just walk away. We're ready form to bounce on me
mm hm, no real fights. Like it wasn't. It was
(18:00):
right at each other, but like that's I remember that
as thinking like, this is what's gonna bother him.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, it has been, and it's very effective as a
tool defiance, and we're going to get into that more too.
But I've definitely had that thought as well. If I
get in a bigger argument and I'm like, you know,
really burn this person up if I start laughing what
they're saying, right, Yeah, And that's part of the as
we've discussed before, using comedy as this sort of political
(18:27):
satire and weapon in that manner, and that's one of
the things which is a good segue into what we're
talking about next. Which is trauma and laughing in the
face of like something that's painful or dark for me
is easier to handle, especially news if it's presented in
the kind of a satirical or funny way, just because
(18:49):
it's so often is.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Pretty grim, pretty grim.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
But yeah, as we discussed in our Trauma mini series,
laughter is sometimes utilized as a coping mechan in the
face of trauma and grief.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I know, it's definitely a coping mechanism for me.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
There wasn't as much information as I thought there would
be out there on this, but I did find some
articles that said laughter promotes resilience in the face of
stress and illness. It is something that you know, historically
people have used to almost defiantly, to reclaim joy in
the face of all these horrible circumstances. And I mean,
when I think about it as someone who does laugh
(19:28):
a lot, like one, that's sort of my that's how
I am. And two it is a way of being like, Okay,
I can I can still find something to laugh at,
or it can still be in what for me is.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Normal and for me, laughing is pretty normal.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
But it's also like I just like I've said a lot,
I feel a lot of pressure. And I've been socialized
a lot to make people happy and to kind of
be that person that cheers people up. And that's hard
to let go, even in the face of right or
maybe even as especially in the face of when you're
trying to hold on to something right of like hard
(20:04):
things of grief and trauma and you're just trying to
find like something from your quote, like I like to
call it the before and after of mine, before of
what who I felt like I was then and then
and all this stuff with trauma and you feel like, oh,
all your foundation is shaken, and I would just try
to grab onto these like pieces and deal with it
(20:27):
that way.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
And we've talked about this previously, and not that this
is an actual scientific statement, but I know this is
very to me as a person on the outside seemingly
middle child syndrome to keep the piece, to keep the happiness,
and you are a middle child, so that none of
that is to a surprising a but I think like
another part of that, when you're talking about your own
trauma and the fact that you laugh that's your response
(20:51):
and I do too. I do too. I actually make
sarcastic jokes, which we're going to get into just a second,
but the fact that many people respond when they specifically
are about their own trauma, which is what we were
talking about in this episode. We were like, let's do
this episode because I was very angry because we did
get a critique on one of our reviews, because I
keep making the stupid mistake of looking at the reviews.
(21:11):
Most of them are so kind and so beautiful and
thank you so much, but the few that come in
says negative. I'm like, why do you even take the time, Like,
just go ahead and put the one star and move on.
I don't care. None of the things that you're critiquing
us for we can change. I can't change this about myself, sorry,
And Adie can't change this about herself. Sorry. But one
of those was about, like you are laughing during serious stuff.
(21:33):
Y'all need to get over this. This is so childish
type of thing. And we hey, we've already told you
at the very beginning this is how we respond. We
probably said it in that episode, whatever episode you're responding to,
because we talk about a lot of traumatic things, let's
be will b, you're also not laughing at other people's trauma.
You're literally talking about your own experiences and your response
(21:55):
is to giggle, to try to handle it and just
try to maintain. And again, I think, I think one
of the things that infuriate me in any of those
comments or any of these levels, is this is what
helped us survive. Why would you come in here and
try to take that away when obviously that is a
strength for us. You may not see it for that way,
You may not see it for yourself, and you may
(22:17):
be able to handle it on a whole different level.
I don't know. But if it's not hurting you, it's
not hurting us, and it's something that can keep us
on a steady way without completely going overboard in whatever route.
And that could be unhealthy. Why is it bothering you?
Why is it bothering you? And I think that just
angers me to so much that we have to criticize
(22:38):
other people's handling of trauma when it's not unhealthy.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Right, Yeah, And I mean we did talk about that
a lot, especially when we talked about grief as well,
and how people feel like grief should look a certain
way and if it doesn't look that way, then you're
not grieving enough for you're grieving too much, you're giving
the wrong way, and I think you know, as was
(23:05):
pretty much everything we talk about. It's hard to unpack
and untangle all of the social factors that go into
why you do a certain thing.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I think that for.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I imagine a lot of women who use laughter as
a coping mechanism, but for anybody, but for women, there's also,
like I'm sure I know you've experienced this as well.
When you do open up and you share something that's
really dark and really painful with somebody, it's clear they
are really uncomfortable, and then you say something funny or
(23:36):
something to lighten the mood because it's just silent, and
it's that's obvious the other person doesn't know what to say,
and I don't fault them for that, Like sometimes there's
nothing to say, right, but you do. I'm somebody who
also struggles with silence a.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Lot of times.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
So if it's like goes silent, somebody's miserable and like,
oh wow, they didn't Okay, well let's flash bit, let's
make this better. It's like what you're I mean, in
a much lighter way. It's like when you're on an
awkward day and you're like Wow, this is awkward. Let's
laugh about it, because right, it's really.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Awkward, right, I mean that is exactly so when we
talk about social work, I would talk about the fact, hey,
you don't want to hang out with a lot of
social workers if you do, if you're really sensitive and
don't have a dark sense of humor, because we are twisted,
like immediately, this is the way we cope, and we
have to joke about things that are really inappropriate and
really like yes, we outside of that reil, we're like,
(24:34):
this is really bad. We shouldn't do this. But if
we didn't, I think we would constantly be on like
a wave of crashing and almost wanted to like, you know,
just go to sleep forever because it is so dark
and it gets so dark, and because it weighs on
you so heavily, like there's nothing to do but to
make an obvious statement, maybe inappropriate to those who hopefully
(24:55):
would understand, and just trying to move on because it
is so dark and so twisted that you can't if
you can't laugh about it for just a minute, then
there's a whole Even though in your mind you're we
have to do all of these things, but I need
a minute. I need a break from the depth and
the darkness of this really really dark, really really heavy
situation to being able to be like, well, at least
(25:18):
SO and SO didn't do this part too, Like that's
the caveat to it. And even though on the outside
they're like, holy crap, what why would you do that,
it's kind of like, well, because this is how we survive.
And again, when we're on in our own trauma, whether
it's to fill the silence, whether it's to make other
people comfortable because you don't know what else to do,
(25:39):
it's kind of the same thing. It's like people will
get really uncomfortable with race stuff, and instead of accepting
the fact, oh you're racist in as, it was like,
you don't know how to act around brown people. So
this is what you're doing. I would make jokes about
myself in a manner I'm like, I really shouldn't have
had to do that, but it's awkward and I don't
know what else to do but to make you laugh
and make myself laugh. I hope this makes it better,
(26:01):
although it just fits into your racism and prejudice and
stereotypical ideas of me.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
So yeah, yeah, And I mean, that's a good point
to make, kind of going back to what you were
saying a little bit earlier, is you know, we're laughing
at our own trauma or too perhaps make other people
more comfortable with our own trauma.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
But that's different than like making jokes. You have no
right to be making right, very very very different or
laughing like.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I did read and this is complicated, and I don't
want to go into it now, but I will mention it.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I did read a.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Couple of articles about basically people grieving, but on opposite
ends of something like perhaps somebody their son had killed
somebody else's child in a drunk driving accident and the
mother of the child that's i'd laughing at the funeral
or something like. That's a bit different than what we're discussing, right,
(26:55):
I suppose, like I understand it, but that that's that's
not the same as what we're just.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Sorting right now.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Again and again, that's what we were talking about to
when it comes to us processing our own trauma and
if it's not to the point that it is hurting
someone else. So when I say processing on trauma, those
who delve into alcohol or go into some type of
addictive personality, trait and habit. That's a whole different conversation.
(27:25):
I'm not saying I encourage that. But when we're talking
about laughing to process our own trauma, that's the whole again.
How is this hurting you? Why are you needing to
speak on it? And also why are you judging our
own trauma? Like that's a double memy on that in itself.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, and I do think it's interesting in something we've
talked about before. But when you're in a public sphere,
some of those things get amplified because you're supposed to
be even if you're doing serious topics, you are supposed
to be entertaining in some way while also getting across
at you cations, acasual content, and when you're talking about
(28:03):
something serious, that can be really tricky, and especially if
you do have your own trauma in your way, you
act your own trauma on top of that.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
And that's not to say there's.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Been plenty of episodes where I feel like there was
hardly any laughter involved, but right, you know, when there's
also that level of it if you're like, oh, this
is too sad, and what's going to listen to it?
Because all it is is sad, I've got to do something.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
It's usually my episodes. I'm like, so I want to
talk about this really bad thing. Let's go, And I'm
sorry everybody starts like sitting in the corner in the dark.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah, And I think that's a balance that is it's
really difficult to pull off. But I do like going
back to what I said where it's easier for me
to handle darker topics if there is some humor in there, right,
And I don't think that's wrong or bad. I think
there's a way to do it, in a way not
to do it, but I think it makes sense that
(28:57):
you need almost like a palatee. There's something to get
stop your heart from like just getting so so sad
and heavy that you don't want to take in any
more information, right, Yeah, which was all a pandemic gas
either it is. We have so many examples of it.
Just hear this episode. I will say one of my
(29:18):
triggers actually is loud male laughing. That's something I've had
to work with, but like really loud that can get me.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
M hmm.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Interesting. There's a lot of figures like that. So again,
dark humor has been shown to improve mental health among
those who participate in stressful job like nursing and social work.
And I tell you, we lived off of dark jokes
to the point that I couldn't be around normal people
(29:51):
because I realized I cannot be socializing with people who
do not understand what this is. When I make a
comment about a case that I'm going through and they
gave me the blank stare of horrified looks, and I'm like, oh,
y'all don't know anything about the okay, cool, I'm just
(30:12):
I'm gonna sit in the corner. Because yes, it takes.
It's especially when you have a job that you really
delve into and it impacts other people. So social service
is nursing and teaching. It's really hard not to see
some type of or at least having to cause inside jokes.
I guess I'm having to have inside jokes or such,
(30:32):
which again not always appropriate and I'm not And if
it's racial any of that, that's not what we're talking
about at all. We're talking about human drama, human trauma,
human darkness, that's what we're talking about. It definitely, yeah,
it definitely helps you just to be able to wake
up the next day. That's where it gets down to
(30:53):
and there's a commaderate to that, yeah, that you have
to have.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, Yeah, and I think I know with my nursing friends,
I've heard a lot about that of being during this
pandemic and being a stress reliever. But they've noticed like
their humor has gotten significantly darker.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah, during all of this. Yeah, I think we had.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
I had a moment when I was working in CPS
investigating child abuse. I had several nursing friends and we
would just share war stories. Let's talk about what was
worse to make ourselves feel better that their job was
worse than our job. It was not pretty.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Speaking of We did briefly want to touch on the
film Joker with Joaquin Phoenix, just because we were talking
about the different perceptions people have of men and women
laughing when it comes to things like trauma and that.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
You know that movie, And we're gonna get circle back
to this.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
But I know there's like an ableism narrative there, because
if you haven't seen it, it's sort of a disorder
he has, right, that's he laughs.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
So yeah, it's called pseudo bulber effect or PBA, and
that's what he was dealing with.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah, and I mean laughter is frequently a tool writers
do use in things.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Things like that to indicate like like villainous behavior. And
then this one's got like also the ableism there, right,
this is actually something he's dealing with. But just the
way people reacted to that and that movie versus us.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
You know, talking about our own trauma just interesting.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
From what I remember from the movie, stress caused him
to laugh, and so people didn't understand what was happening
because I know, like stress, Like for me, we talked
about stress causes me to be really sleepy, so I
guess it's similar to that effect.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Obviously I don't want to be compared to the joker necessarily.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
But.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Just yeah, I mean, I guess we know that laughter
is a response to stress and trauma. It does make
people uncomfortable sometimes, I think, but it seems that the
reaction you get when it's women is much more like dismissive,
I guess, either dismissive if it's trauma, or like angry
(33:34):
if it's related to dating. Yeah, just to you know,
I feel like we understand that this is a thing,
but we're judging people for it and we're judging differently
based on gender, which is interesting. So we did want
(34:08):
to go into a history of women laughing because, as
we mentioned in the intro, there's been a long history
of judging women's laughter and sometimes even criminalizing it. In
Ancient Greece, Aristotle war it gets the pitfalls of laughter,
writing quote, most people enjoy amusement and jesting more than
they should, as is a kind of mockery, and loggivers
forbid some kinds of mockery. Perhaps they ought to have
(34:29):
forbidden some kinds of jesting. God seems to be on
the same page. In the Old Testament, laughing at God
was not at all tolerated, and even when God laughs,
it's an act of hostility and fury, not a good
thing at all. There's one instance where a group of
boys laugh at a prophet, So God six two she
bears on them and kills like almost all of them.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
I believe right.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
They're making fun of the prophet, though that's a little different,
and then throwing things and taunting him and trying to
hurt him. So that's a little bit of f than
just laughing at just saying so. During the Middle Ages,
women's laughter was viewed as unruly, course and something associated
with the body and not at all ladylike, as in fact,
(35:13):
the whole tee covering of the mouth is what you
would often see represented. Women were advised not to laugh,
that it was uncouth, despite that female characters and literature
ranging from the thirteenth to the sixteenth century often engaged
in laughter. In Lisa Profetti's work Women in Laughter in
Medieval Comic Literature, she argues that laughter was a way
(35:36):
to talk back to the views around women at the time.
That jokes and humor around women which made women laugh
also illustrated to the limited movement agency women had at
the time. Often female characters were written by men as
targets to be made fun of, mocked, and kept in
their place. In this way, women who made jos and
laughed could be viewed as somewhat subversive. And I will say,
(36:00):
think about lay miss. The whole thing is a pretty
big tragedy. But the two funny characters was the woman
who was essentially seen as a hag and then her
husband who they were both crooks essentially were the funny
bit to the entire movie. Everybody else was like, yeah, drama, drama, yes,
(36:21):
but those are the characters are seen being funny or
made fun of.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Right English philosopher Thomas Hobbs, you'd laughing as a political
tool and weapon. He wrote, quote men laugh at the
infirmities of others, for when aes is broken upon ourselves,
of friends, and whose dishonor we participate, we.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Never laugh thereat.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
In puritanical New England, a woman laughing could be downright
and dangerous, sometimes believe to be a sign of her
covenant with the devil, and particularly during times of prayer
are fasting. One such woman was Susan Martin. Records indicate
that she was executed not only for breastfeeding Satan with
her quote witch is tits, but also for laughing at
(37:01):
quote such falling during her trial. So I believe they
told her this was her charge, and she laughs, and
so they're like ah, which reminds me of The Bitch,
which we did a feminist movie Friday On. But the
way that movie ends is she sort of accepted being
a witch and being in Satan's govenant, I guess, and
she's laughing, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I know, like in several of the movies I've seen,
I can't remember like laughing equates to orgasm as well, yeah,
which is also a no no oh yeah, as well
having a fit in hysteria and all that is somewhat
related to laughter as one of those terms in itself,
so that's interesting. Two women in Chicago were arrested in
(37:45):
eighteen ninety nine for laughing, and in the words of
a local newspaper, it says the trouble was caused by
a new joke on the kissing bug. I love it,
what's the kissing bug? I know? With the arresting officer claiming,
and then they both last so loud they awoke the
entire neighborhood. However, the presiding justice was not impressed or concerned. Well,
(38:08):
I guess it certainly is a joke to arrested person
for laughing, and both women were discharged after that. But wow, wow,
I just.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Don't want to know this joke about the kissing bug.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
I need to know about this kissing bug.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I know.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Etiquette vaniels around the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries instructed
women to limit their laughter, that people would look down
on them for it, and that it was even potentially
dangerous a sign of female hysterics. A nineteen oh two
obituary ran with the headline death from laughter, and it
described a woman who visited the theater to quote enjoy
a comedy and instead furnished a tragedy after she became
(38:47):
convulsed with merriment.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Marriment even better.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
After a romantic suitor told a woman a joke in
nineteen oh seven about dentistry, she couldn't stop laughing until
she was given some anesthetics. When she came to, she
said she couldn't remember the joke, and out of caution,
no one told it to her. However, several articles claimed
it win as follows. A man went to the dentist
to have a toothpold and it hurt oh doctor. The
(39:14):
patient said, if only humans were born without teeth, The
doctor replied, they.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Are, you know, classic classic.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Here's another example from nineteen oh eight. A widow named
Anna Farrer attended a dinner party where someone shared a
funny joke with her. She started laughing so hard she
was quote unable to stop the laughing paroxysm, and quote
died before a physician could be summoned. The joke wasn't
printed for safety. Can you imagine being this person who
told that joke really killed well, they didn't want anybody
(39:50):
else to read it and have the same reaction, which
reminds me of the Mony Fipop.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Skit the joke that kills, the killer joke.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Oh, it was like a World War Two skits where
the British Army just like, after months and months of
practicing and assembling a joke in many pieces so people
wouldn't read it because it's dangerous In German, they constructed
the perfect killer joke and they would go around. The
(40:22):
soldiers would go around shouting it at German officers because
they didn't understand it so it wouldn't kill them, and
the German officers would.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Laugh and then drop dead. But then at the end.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Of course they're like, all I want to hear this,
so what's so good about it? And they say it
in English and then they all die as well.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Die nice.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, So that kind of reminds me of the Mary
Popin scene where they're all laughing and they start floating
because they can't stop laughing and they're talking about someone
floats away and they all tell jokes to each other.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah. I haven't seen that movie in so long, but
I don't remind that.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Yeah, that's so. A lot of these advice columns and
cautionary tales were coming out more and more women were
entering the public sphere and attending more public forms of
entertainment more regularly. So just so you know, ladies, laughing
can kill you, exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
You better not do it. Better not now. Of note,
there are.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Cases of men laughing at women, typically white women, in
areas where their patronage was valuable, and men laughing at
them made them feel unsafe and being arrested or ejected
from public venue, so that did happen as well. Interestingly,
women may have participated in highly derided sobbing clubs at
the time, and men's laughter was often seen as something
(41:39):
that was just or good in the face of their sniveling,
as it was called, and particularly laughing at entertainment geared
towards women, which was incidentally where men were most likely
to be punished for it. Again, because people didn't want
to lose the people who the patrons who were paying
to see these things, and in Puritanical America, laughing at
a tragedy was viewed as something akin to asin that
(42:03):
was real bad, a mind frame that carried over into
more modern times kind of relates to some of the
stuff we've been talking about. During the late nineteenth century,
there was a spate of articles claiming that across the
country men were laughing blasphemously during church services, and some
of them did get arrested.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
You know, I'm thinking more and more about laughter being
used like it's a sin, Like when you see demonic possessions,
they're also laughing. And then I know that there are
several diagnoses where they talk about inappropriate laughing because it
doesn't fit the emotions. So therefore maybe they are ABC
and CS of kind of sociopathic diagnoses, which start to
(42:43):
thinking about that.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yeah, yeah, So where we are now in our more
modern times, women's laughter is the subject of penalization and
also a feminist thought.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Mm hm. So just in twenty seventeen, a code protester
named Desiree Ferouse, sorry if I've mispronounced that, was arrested
after laughing during the confirmation hearing for Jeff Sessions to
become Attorney General after a Republican senator said that Sessions
had quote an extensive record of treating all Americans fairly
(43:17):
under the law, not gonna lie. I would laugh too,
She potentially faced a two thousand dollars fine and up
to a year in jail, but the judge ultimately ruled
that laughing was not adequate grounds for guilt. In that quote,
it was disconcerting that the government made the case in
closing arguments that the laughter in and of itself was sufficient. Yes,
(43:39):
it is disconcerting. The government motion filed against her claimed
that she was arrested because she sought to impede and
disrupt then Senator sessions confirmation hearing by drawing attention away
from the hearing itself and directing it instead toward the
defendant's perception of the nominees racist views, policies, and voting record.
(44:01):
I'm not laughing because of the way he said, But
I'm like, but it did, and all she did was laugh.
So for you to take that as that thinks again,
says more about you, whoever file these charges, than it
is us about her.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Professor of law the University of Michigan, Catherine A. McKinnon
wrote of this incident, criminally charging and potentially sentencing missus
Eru's for a brief spontaneous injection of political laughter as
disruptive when it at least so clearly was not looks
like an overly thin skin reflex reaction to a woman
appropriating what is usually a masculine form of power, ridicule,
public humiliation by humor, and in this case, political speech
(44:40):
against racism. Of note, the Trump administration was a repeated
offender and punisher.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Of women mocking Trump.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Take their reaction to Melissa McCarthy impersonating Sean Spicer.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
They just flipped out so angry, they were so so
angry of all of snl made me laugh.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
But that's also true.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Yes, this is somewhat reminiscent of a scene from the
nineteen eighty two film A Question of Silence, when three
women laugh loudly and brashly at their own murder trial,
mostly at the premise presented that they lived in a
post sexist society that were on trial after exhiberantly murdering
a shopkeeper who harassed a female shoplifter. The Question of
(45:22):
Silence is a reference to the idea that the marginalized
don't have a voice in the face of a continued injustices,
so defiant laughter is one way of sticking it to
the man and disrupting the status quo. Like I said,
I knew what would make my brother angry, and that
was just laughing.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, yeah, this movie sounds interesting. I had never heard
of it, but I want to check it out now.
And there have been cases of women being arrested and
jailed for disrespecting the dead throughout history as well.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
And of course there.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Is and has been intersections with racism, homophobia, and ableism.
In eighteen ninety eight, the black newspaper The Washington b
wrote it is against the law for a black person
to laugh at a policeman in the street. The following year,
a black woman named Louisa Roberts was fined two dollars
and quote patrolman Hutchinson arrested her for assassing some white women.
Ralph Ellison wrote of a Southern mythology around the quote
(46:15):
laughing barrel of public barrel that black people were meant
to put their head in when they fell at a
laugh coming on. In his essay and Extravagance of Laughter,
he wrote of the power of laughter quote grotesque comedy,
out of the extremes to which whites would go to
keep us in what they considered to be our police.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
These attitudes and discrimination continue to this day. In twenty fifteen,
a group of eleven black women were ejected from a
Napa Valley wine train for laughing too loudly, which led
to the hashtag laughing wild Black. I remember this because
they made this huge scene just because they were enjoying
their time, to the point that even other women were like,
(46:54):
what are they doing. They're at a bachelorette party, nothing's wrong.
Why are you in them off?
Speaker 4 (47:01):
Right?
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Yeah, it's a wine tree tour.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Everybody's drinking and giggling like that's not a bad thing.
That means they had a good time. I mean, why, yes, right.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
At the same time, there's also a long history of
using black laughter and minstrel shows to reassure white audiences
that there was no resentment or danger from black folks.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
Right, you know, that's kind of that conversation of trying
to make white people feel comfortable. So therefore, I'm like,
you know, deprivating comments about being Asian to make the
white people in the room okay, And to the point
that someone was like, oh, you're one of those Asians. Cool,
that's exactly what you said to me, And I was
like what. And I think that was the moment I
(47:45):
realized what I did. I was like, oh, I have
given them permission to be outwardly racist to me crap.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Right, yeah, yeah, And then there's also been a lot
of conversation and judgment around the gay voice and related
the gay laugh. That could be and probably will be
its own episode, but that is also a piece of this.
And then yes, going back to the joke or there's
ableism going on as well in this conversation, as well
(48:13):
as a very clear anxiety of people laughing at the
wrong moment, which, as we've discussed throughout this whole episode, there's.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
So many reasons for why that might be. Right.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Yeah, So all of this points to a history of
censoring women's laughter and the laughter of marginalized groups. It
also points to a history of people finding joy in
the face of trauma and discrimination and depression. Even thinking
about feminism specifically, there's numerous examples of you know, yes,
women aren't funny, feminist buzzkill, can't you take a joke?
(48:48):
Things like that, As was so many things we talk about.
It's such a double edged thing because if you laugh,
then you might get punished for laughing at the wrong
time or offending a man or hurting his ego. If
you don't laugh at their jokes or what they find funny,
then you're a buzzkill.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
You can't take a joke, or you're cold and frigid
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
It is. One thing we didn't get into that we'd
love to hear from listeners about is cultural differences in laughing.
There are a lot of articles around all of this
out of Indian specifically Bollywood, which was really interesting, including
this quote laughter strips the object of power and gives
power to the one who laughs. When stand up comics
make fun of someone or something, their jokes are in
(49:30):
effect criticism and mockery, highlighting a social issue or a
family reality. There's so much too unpack with all of this,
because again there is a line like there are jokes
you can make and jokes you can't.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Are definitely should it.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
But yes, it is like a way to express defiance
in the face of oppression, for sure, and I think
that's why it does. It does have this history of
being punished when marginalized people do it at what people
in power see is the quote wrong time? Yeah, all
(50:06):
of that into so much as always I was, this
is a fastening one to research. Yeah, and listeners We
would love to hear from you any cultural differences you've noticed,
or gender differences you've noticed, anything at all like that,
You can email us. Our email is Stuffidia mom Stuff
at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter
(50:27):
at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram. A Stuff I've
Never Told You Thanks as always here at super producer Christina,
thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've
Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
For more podcasts on iHeartRadio, is the heart Radio
Speaker 2 (50:38):
App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
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