SMNTY Interviews: Caitlin Blunnie

Caitlin Blunnie, AKA Liberal Jane, joins us for a conversation about art, activism, reproductive rights and more.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I walcome to stuff
I've never told your prediction.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
iHeart radio.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
We're so excited about this conversation. But before we start,
we do want to add content warnings about the fact
that we are going to talk about eating disorders, sexual
assault and abuse as well as just really bad things
happening in the world as we know, and trauma childhood,
trauma and abuse as well. So let's see it into

(00:38):
it and y'all today we are so excited because not
only am are we talking to one of our featured
activists around the world, Hello, but someone that I have
been following for a while now who has been a
big fan of their art and all the things that
they do. All the things that they do.

Speaker 4 (00:57):
Caitlin Lenny, thank you so much for being on the show.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm thrilled to
be here.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Okay, before we get into this, cause we're going to
talk a lot about your background, Can you introduce yourself
to our listeners.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
My name is Caitlin Flenny. I go by Liberal Gain online.
I'm an artist and activist. Most of my work centers
around the framework of everyone deserves the right to bodily autonomy,
and I've been creating illustrations for the last eight nine years.

Speaker 4 (01:28):
At this point, does it feel weird when you start
thinking about how long you've been doing this?

Speaker 5 (01:32):
Like it feels short? But at the same time, Phil Forever.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
It's wild because I went to college for new media,
which was kind of like digital art type stuff. My
username is a nickname that I had reclaimed from my family,
and so I created that account like in twenty sixteen,
and it was my personal account for like two three years.

(01:55):
Like I was just posting for the sake of posting,
and I really didn't expect it to become what it
is now.

Speaker 5 (02:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, we're going to get into that in a minute.
There's so many layers in how your story unfolds and
just how you got to this point in both your career,
your activism, your advocacy work. There's so much in this conversation.
Again when it comes to your amazing work. I've been
a big fan. But before we start, you kind of

(02:23):
did already tap into it. Can you tell us how
you entered into the art world.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yes, that's a great question. I think, like a lot
of artists, I always had like a creative tendency when
I was younger, but I grew up very low income,
and you know, basic things like food, electricity, even cable
like weren't always available, and so I think having that experience,

(02:53):
I was like, I can't do art. That's for people
who don't have to worry about money, and that's not
my circumstance. I started working when I was thirteen fourteen,
doing babysitting, and then as soon as I could work
like a job, job, I did, and I was contributing
towards the household. So I loved art and I would
do it in secret in my room. I remember I

(03:14):
saved up a bunch of money to get a used computer.
I got like a little gateway computer, and I would
sit there with the mouse and on Microsoft Paint would
draw and post online. And no one, of course, knew
about this in my real life. I think eventually I
told my little siblings and they were like, that's so cool.
But I didn't take art seriously. And then my senior

(03:36):
year of high school, I was like, okay, I'll take
an art class, and even that I was like, I
don't know, like this is too traditional in the sense
I its like drawing and pastels, and that's not really
up my alley. And so I went to college. I
had no idea what I wanted to do. I thought
I was going to be a literature major. Thought was
going to read books and be one of those people.

(03:58):
And I ended up getting involved in like I say,
digital art. It's like web design, photography, videography. But the
whole focus of my program that I went to was
the idea of teaching yourself. And so while illustration wasn't
a part of my formal education, it was something that like,

(04:21):
by my sophomore junior year, I was creating mostly gifts.
They were like these little I call them jitter gifts,
where it's like you just draw three or four frames
and then you put it through a gift maker and
it just gives that like a little bit of motion.
And I did that for two three years, and then
when I graduated, I was like, I really want to

(04:43):
do activism. I really want to do art. I don't
how do those two things go together? And so I
started off like most people, in a nonprofit job and
just doing advocacy work. And it was at that job
actually that I started feeling very frish, fustrated with the
work that I was doing is very frustrated with how

(05:03):
things were handled at the nonprofit I worked at, and
so I started, Uh, I would go home from work
and I would just draw because I was just angry.

Speaker 4 (05:13):
And it really I love that you're laughing about that,
because I know what. I can picture you doing this,
like you're.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
Like, oh, I'm mad, I'm gonna show you something, and
then like as you're drawing, you're putting all your frustrations
and that release of just like being a private story
though in your own like moment to now like wow,
but that's such Like I love that just thinking about
you coming home steing and you're like eating a bull
of cereal or something and just like going at it
on your art.

Speaker 6 (05:41):
It's so good.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
So you started and you went into that. How did
that unfold into today?

Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah? Well I worked that job I really didn't like
for about seven eight months and then I became an
organizer for an organization called Reproaction and I started as
the Virginia organizer and I was just doing mostly organizing
around abortion access. I would organize we called them positive
presences outside the abortion clinic that was local to us,

(06:09):
and organizing direct actions a lot of frontline activism work,
and I really loved that. I was involved in planned
parenthood in college and so like was very much into
the direct action side of it. And thankfully with that
job it was work from home, so I had more
time to do drawings and art on the side. But

(06:31):
those two things really didn't come together for another three
or four years, Like it was just something I did
on the side. And then eventually, at that job, eventually
art became a part of my role at work, and
I did that for several years. And reproductive rights, abortion
rights are rapelest in my heart. And I think, you know,

(06:53):
having started as an activist during the Obama era in
New York, I entered it thinking this is so bad,
this is horrible, this is it can't get worse than this.
And then of course, you know, now I'm like, I'm
miss Obama, please come back. But like I just entered it,
like I didn't realize that, I guess, and I hate

(07:16):
saying this. I didn't realize how good it was at
the time and where we would end up ten years later.

Speaker 5 (07:21):
Look, we are also in that state of.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
Like, even though we know on our end, no political person,
no person in politics is perfect, and they all have
to be accountable.

Speaker 5 (07:35):
There's just some level of like, but it wasn't this bad.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, yeah, And I think, you know, I think there
were a lot of experiences like I remember the Kavanaugh
confirmation hearings standing outside the Senate building and conservative reporters
coming up to any woman they could find and just saying,
were you raped? Were you sexually assaulted? Is that why
you're here? And just over like the last four years,

(08:01):
especially like twenty sixteen through twenty twenty one, it just
was ramping up to the point where like it was
becoming more and more unsafe. And I think, like I said,
I started during the Obama years. By the time Roe
fell in what was it, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two,

(08:21):
I just like I had a mental breakdown, honestly, I
think because I had been marching and beating the drum
of Roe's gonna fall, Roe's gonna fall, and for years
people telling me I was crazy, people telling me that's
not gonna happen. And then it happened. And yes there
were protests, yes there was outrage, But here we are
years later, and half the country doesn't have access to repredicative.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Rights, right and women are dying, and people with unses
are dying on the daily, and we're not talking about
it enough.

Speaker 5 (08:51):
Oh yeah, you could do some heavy work.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
And I fill that heaviness with especially in talking about
like we knew when things were talking like you're not listening.
We're crying and mourning for the loss of our freedom,
and why you think we're being dramatic as we are
being counted to literally die at another person's whims is

(09:14):
really infuriating.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, and I think, you know, the decision coming down
broke my heart. I think what really led to me
having a breakdown and eventually having to resign from that
role was very shortly after Roe felt, I had a
training with a group of people in Texas and they
were super excited to, you know, figure out how to
get people to access care in their state and having

(09:39):
to sit there and say, well, actually, your state hasn't
had access since the year before with SB two. Second
of all, I don't even know if this conversation is legal.
I don't know if there's repercussions for this. No one knows,
you know, and it's such a gray area and it's
so much in my workhouse to do a stick uh,

(10:00):
I think and like making you know, the the implicit explicit,
and it just I think it was one of those romans.
I was just so intimidated and I was so overwhelmed
and sad, and you know, I think burnout played a
large role in that. You know, when you're in the
fight for so long and you just right feel beat up,

(10:25):
it's exhausting.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
It's exhausting when you're in the center of chaos in
a twenty four hour state and it feels like you're losing,
and that it's not only are you losing, but you're
losing more support and rational thinking. That's all the different
conversation in itself, But this does bring me back into
something that I find so.

Speaker 5 (10:48):
Heartwarming.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
I guess it's the best way because a little bit
about you've already mentioned about your name Liberal Jane as
you first kind of came out in your activism in
your art, that how you came about that name. And
we have talked on here a lot about like having
conservative families and growing out of that and what that
looks like again, and you doing that and not only

(11:11):
doing that, but becoming well known and famous for your
work with that felt vindicating. I felt like I was
living through you, scariously through you, and being able to
be like yeah, sticking it to my family, my conservative family,
who really didn't know that I could do all this
uh and use what they thought was an insult to

(11:32):
me to better publicize the work that I am doing.
Which so I loved every bit of this, but again
I'm giving it away too much. So I need you
to tell our listeners about how this, how your name
came about.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
Absolutely so. I grew up, like I said, very conservative
and not just like conservative, like we care about money
like conservative, hateful conservative, and I genuinely believed in those
things full hearted until I went to college and then
it was like there was just a moment of like, oh,
I think at the time, I had lost like fifty

(12:12):
sixty pounds. I had a terrible eating disorder.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
And.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
I saw and I think a lot of people who
have lost weight, dained weight even have experienced this where
the world treats you differently, and suddenly I was an
attractive woman and like the way I was treated and
the way men spoke to me like shifted. And I
think having that experience really ignited the feminist blame in me.

(12:37):
I became very involved in the feminist club at my college,
which was called FORCE. It was like feminists Organizing for
Real Change Everywhere or something like that.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
It's amazing. I love like feminist organizations. I mean, you like,
liberal organizations have to be an acronym.

Speaker 6 (12:54):
You have an acronym.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, oh yeah. And so because I had grown up
debating my dad, and like, you know, up until this point,
we're on the same page. We're still debating, but it's
starting to devolve in a different way. And so my
dad would always have these names like Joe Schmo or
trying to think of other ones, but liberal Jane became mine.

(13:20):
And so when we would be having an argument and
he I guess maybe didn't have a rebuttal or whatever,
he'd say, Okay, liberal Jane, and that was like a
dismissive way to tell me to stop. And so I
had that name for two three years. And you know,
I graduated in twenty sixteen, and so this rhetoric around
like college kids go to school and they become radicalized,

(13:43):
like that was very much the position of my dad. Yeah,
but I, like I said, when I graduated, I really
wanted to figure out how to combine the art and activism,
and that just felt like a fitting name because you know,
Jane Jane Doe is like, you know, just any woman.
And then of course we have the gene collective gene

(14:04):
as a as a name holds so much weight already.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, which is probably why he used it as this
because we do see that I think there's a lot
to be said about again, education and we know the

(14:28):
conservative far right are really anti education and making sure
to not do too much. I mean, as in fact,
my family have talked about if we go from so
I lived in an Appalachian town and then moving to Atlanta,
which is where we're based, which is, you know, a
pretty big hub and a pretty big city. They were like, oh,
she's gonna she's gonna get radicalized. And it's not because

(14:48):
of like education necessarily, but because of the sins of
the city type of thing, Yeah, which I find fascinating
in itself, but like leaving that type of family where
you truly did hang on every words, because that type
of family often least with the men or the head
of the families, you follow suit with the families. As

(15:09):
in fact, like they're talking about again repelling Nineteenth Amendment
and saying that they just need a household vote, implying
again that same structure of Melie in the family. And
I recently listened to your podcast about trauma and about
kind of leaving that behind, and for me, it felt
like a legitimate breakup with the church. Mine was specifically

(15:31):
with the church and growing up in the church like that,
being told I need.

Speaker 5 (15:34):
To be grateful for you.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
What did it feel like when you started to break
away and how did you cope with the trauma of
breaking away.

Speaker 5 (15:43):
From such a dark time.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
I know that sounds weird, but like when it comes
to finding your own thought process understanding, Oh, this is
not what I thought it was.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, you know, I think it was my decision to
sort of contact with my dad. I do have a
relationship with my mom and siblings. But what ended up
happening was because I'm so I guess open online, I
ended up getting outed to my family and it did
not go over well. And that was the last time

(16:17):
I spoke to my dad. That was over five years ago.
Because I was called a liar. I was told that
I was hiding who I was and that they didn't
believe anything about me anymore, because how could I lie
about such a important part of my life, despite the
fact that I had grown up being told almost on
a daily basis that if you're gay, we will beat

(16:40):
the gay out of you. And that was anytime my
brother did anything slightly f mean, we picked up a
barbie forget about it, like you know, never mind that
I was the one that he was playing with and
I was a girl. And so honestly, I will say that, like,
between twenty twenty and twenty twenty four was a pretty
dark period for me. I lost contact with my family.

(17:04):
I of course, the pandemic was happening politics, I had
to resign from my job, and I ended up leaving
a long term relationship in June of twenty twenty four.
That was almost eleven year relationship and it's hard to
not feel very lost after that. And I will say

(17:24):
I've definitely had depression and mental health struggles, but I
am so grateful that I had the ability to leave
situations that weren't serving me. And I think I have
to give myself a lot of grace because of the
way I grew up. That in particular, if you grow
up around abuse, you likely find yourself in a similar

(17:45):
situation and you could be trying as hard as you
can to avoid it. Like my ex when I met him,
he was the one person that would argue with my
dad and he was very liberal, and so I was like, wow,
look somebody who can stand up to my dad the
way I can, not realizing that there were a lot
of similar qualities and that comfort, that familiarity doesn't mean safety,

(18:08):
and that is such a hard thing to unlearn.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, one thing that Samantha and I talk about a
lot on this show is it's kind of strange to
be very open and very personal about things that maybe
you haven't spoken to your family about, Like who else
are you involving and telling this story? And my mom

(18:34):
found out I was gay through a book we wrote.
I had never told her. She found out a lot
of things about me in that book. I wish she
had not read it. She's such a supportive mom, but
I was like, why did you read that? But I
was very lucky in that my family was pretty they
were liberal, but I still grew up very afraid of

(18:58):
being gay. I'm pretty sure at the seventh grade I
was like, I think I might be and I would
pray about it. I would be like, I hope this
isn't true, because I knew, even at a young age,
I knew what that would mean, and it was not
good for me societally. And it's interesting to me that

(19:19):
interesting and upsetting that even today I kind of have
my liberal bubble of friends, so I forget it sometimes,
but then I'll be like confronted with the reality in
our politics or in my very conservative side of the
family that no, this is still coming out is still dangerous,
and it's still political, and it's still really scary. Not

(19:41):
everybody has like a support group or someone to stand
up for them or protect them, and it just becomes
this whole confrontation about who you are when you're just
trying to be live your life and be a person.
And I know you've been very very open about your

(20:02):
experience and very vulnerable about it online in these public spaces.
So how has that been for you? And do you
have any advice for people, young people perhaps, or anybody
that just is still feeling isolated or scared about this.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's a great question, and I'm definitely not an expert
by any means, but you know, I think just reminding
yourself that life is too short, and I think especially
you get to a point where it's like, I mean
I was married and everything on the surface looked good.
You know, I had a business, we worked together, we

(20:44):
were happy. We had this relationship, and no one knows
what's happening in your life better than you do. You know,
people can give you advice, people can say, oh, you
should stay, you should do whatever. And I certainly have
heard a lot of ice over the last year, good
and bad. But at the end end of the day,
what your gut is telling you, you have to listen.

(21:05):
And of course our guts sometimes, you know, we have
to be aware of racism, implicit bias, like all of
these things. Yes, but in my relationship, I was chronically sick,
chronically had headaches, chronically had stomach pain. When I left,
I went from having migraines at least two three times
a week two I've had maybe one in the last year.

(21:29):
And you know, your body is trying to speak to you.
I think for a long time, emotions would come up,
and because I was sort of labeled as like this
anxious attachment, it was like, oh, my emotions are wrong,
like and I I really tune them out. You know.
It was like we got to have a good day today,
like let's just put on happy faces and let's let's

(21:51):
do it. And what happened was I stopped knowing myself.
I stopped trusting myself. And when you get to that point,
it's you feel really lost and it is very hard
to get out of that. I'm so grateful that I
had the space to get out of that. But I

(22:12):
think you know, if anyone listening is feeling vulnerable, and
perhaps there are people in your life that don't understand
or aren't giving the advice, it's not because they don't
love or care about you. The experience that survivors have,
the emotions, the mental toll it takes on you, it's

(22:33):
really only something that other survivors understand. I mean I
feel it on a daily basis when I talk about
my life openly. I'll be in an uber or something
and then they'll say, oh, you married or do you
have children, And I'll very openly say I'm divorced. You know,
I'm living here. I lived the last seven eight years
in the DC area. I'm now up in Baltimore. I'm

(22:54):
here because I'm divorced. I'm starting over, and it's very
interesting getting people's reactions people will start with I'm so sorry,
that's terrible, and it's like, I don't feel like that.
I am so grateful I got out. I'm so grateful
that I'm I'm thirty one and I still have, you know,
my whole life ahead of me. That's one chapter in

(23:14):
my life. And you know, I think I have to
remind myself on a daily basis, And one of my
affirmations I tell myself is I am making progress every day,
even if I don't see it. And so, you know,
obviously it's easier some than done leaving a bad situation,
but don't be afraid to be open and honest with

(23:36):
people in your life. It's so hard, and if you
can't get support from people in your life, there are
advocates that can help. And I know it's so it's
so stigmatizing. Like I was given the domestic violence hotline
before I left my relationship and I was like, no,
that's not me. No, I've never been hit, Like, no,
that's not it, and I would really I think there's

(24:00):
stigma around being labeled a victim or survivor whatever language
people want to use. But at the end of the day,
it's not cowardly to ask for help. It's something I
should have done, honestly.

Speaker 7 (24:17):
Yeah, No, that's there's so much to what you just said,
and you've left so much experiences already in coming to
this point and understanding that you needed to be out
and that you are worth more than what even was.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
You thought what you thought wasn't upgrade at that time
because you know it was better than the previous and
then you will understand, oh, I don't need to just
be better, I need the best. I want to be
in the best and whatever that looks like for me
and getting to that place is a huge victory. So
kudos and congratulations and valuing yourself and loving yourself and

(24:56):
those around you to be able to see that not
only is it worth the pain and what MENI would
say would be as you had said, like you felt
like people would imply as a failure. Whether it's the
uber driver being like, oh I'm so sorry, or any
of those things. It's so huge just to see that
you were able to do it like that in itself

(25:18):
is a testament to your strength and the strength of
perseverence alone.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, thank you. I think something my grandfather told me
that like has always stuck with me is like everyone
in their life falls on the rests, like at some point,
like something's going to happen where you just feel like
you're spinning out and you feel like lost, But it
happens to all of us, and like we need to
lean on each other, even if it's uncomfortable, even if

(25:45):
it's embarrassing or you know. I think the financial side
for me is really where a lot of my embarrassment
is because I left my relationship without all the finances
have been in my ex's name, and so I left
with that money and like a lot of debt, a
lot of stress. I don't regret any of that, right,

(26:06):
but it's also such a privilege to be able to survive.
But seeing those first couple of months where I was
like eating one meal a day because it was like
I can't afford to eat right now. My car last
year broke down, it was like, Okay, I guess I'm
a pedestrian. And it's just been like a lot of
just taking things with grace. There have been so many
times where I've just been like I just wish there

(26:28):
was some place I could crash out. I wish there
was a place I could not pay rent for a
month and I'm just sleep on someone's couch. I just
wish that that place existed and it doesn't for me,
and that that's hard. But if you are in a
position where you have that in your life, definitely lean
on those resources.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Again, there's so much in your conversation that alone, because
we've talked about we've absolutely had the mini conversation about
the financial abuse aspect and how severe that is, but
it's so talked about, this not talked about enough, and
how that is so binding, and how again these laws
that are being forced upon us that we're regressing in

(27:09):
a lot of ways through this administration is trying to
put people, specifically women in those marginalized people in those
same binds, knowing that it traps people so for to
get out in any situation, knowing that eventually you won't
necessarily it won't be wonderful, but it'll get normalized that
you'll be able to understand you can survive this.

Speaker 5 (27:31):
And that's such a conversation.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
I think that's what's so scary about the whole stay
at home girlfriend trend because like especially that, like you know,
marriage offers you some protections. In my case, it didn't
it didn't do anything. By the time I actually got
through the divorce process, the money had been gone, and yeah,
it's like I'm not gonna uh, you need more resources
to get that right. Yeah, it's just scary how I think.

(28:00):
You know, the previous generation and the generation before, we
fought so hard for these financial rights, the rights to
have a credit card, to have bank accounts, to open
our own businesses, and for this regression of this is easier.
It's like, actually, the conversation should be about, you know,
the double shift most women fall into where they're working

(28:24):
full time jobs and then also doing housekeeping, childcare and
the mental load. And the solution to that isn't taking
away agency and control, right, something I wish that I
had done, and there are so many reasons behind why
I didn't. If you are in a relationship, definitely have
savings put aside. There's a great thing online if you

(28:46):
just search you fund, it'll come up. And the idea
is like, it's somebody very happy in a relationship, and
it's just saying in case anything happens, I can say
you and peace app right. One should have that because
you know what, even if it's obviously it's twenty twenty five.
It's not easy to save money, right, but if you

(29:07):
can and you have the means, just even a little.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Bit, right, that's amazing. And just for edited purposes, f
you fun, but actually.

Speaker 4 (29:15):
Hell, because it's gonna be bleeped out and I don't
know if people will understand what it is. Probably so,
but sometimes of context, you know how like those skits
will just bleep out random words and it's not actually bad,
but it sounds like it could be bad, and you're
gonna just in case, not that we do that, but
you know what I'm saying, just look.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
At that clarification, but that I didn't know about that.
I really want to know where about that specific site.
And we'll have to come back to this because that's
a fascinating conversation.

Speaker 5 (29:53):
Some of the things that people may not know.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Obviously you are an activist, but they don't understand that
you literally really had been a part of these organizations
and that's how you actually started out, not just the
art activism. And you've been pretty open about why you
started in activism, and you talked about some things that
have happened through college as well as why reproductive access
is so important to you, and can you talk about

(30:18):
how that started up for you?

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Absolutely, you know, I think the right to autonomy, especially
having experienced financial abuse growing up, definitely plays a role.
I have always relied on reproductive health care, like whether
it was birth control, and it was actually like when
I moved to northern Virginia that I lost my health insurance.

(30:45):
And the first month I was in Virginia, I had
this horrible UTI and I had like saved like five
hundred bucks posts like during college to move. This is
my big I'm moving out of the house was five
hundred dollars. This is great. And of course I moved
down to Virginia, I don't have work. I'm living with

(31:08):
my boyfriend at the time and his mom and sister,
and I have this horrible UTI and literally exhausted all
my savings trying to see a provider and trying to
get the fricking antibiotics. And so I think that experience
I have such core memories of I end up becoming

(31:30):
a server California, a piece of kitchen and just standing
there and trying not to clench my legs because you know,
my rethroat is on fire at right. It's like I
got to stand for the next eight hours because I
need this paycheck. And you know, when we're talking about
reproductive rights, I think so much of the conversation that's

(31:51):
missing is that economic justice aspect. I want children. I
would love to be a mother. That is a dream
of mine. But when I became pregnant at twenty one,
me and my ex were living we were taking care
of his father who had had a stroke and was
struggling with opioid addiction, and so it was a very

(32:12):
intense household, like we were taking care of him and
then also dealing with this addiction that we didn't know
about when he moved in. It wasn't until he moved
in that we realized that he was still using and
so it was just like, you know, in retrospect, I
think I was just so scared. And at the time
my ex was like abortion and I was like okay,

(32:35):
and going through that process. I wasn't able to get
an abortion in Virginia. I had to travel to Maryland
and just going through the whole process, and you know,
in a way, I ended up going to the clinic
with my best friend and that I'm still we're still
best friends to this day. My ex did not come,

(32:57):
and I just remember like waking up at six in
the morning and going to CVS and she was like,
I'll just buy you whatever snacks you want. We drove
to the clinic and we got the pills, and then
you know, she stayed with me through the morning and night.
And while it was a lot, I don't think Liberal
Jane would have been a thing without it. Liberal Jane

(33:19):
was like three or four months old at that point.
There would be no art, there would be no I
would still be in my old relationship if I would
have went through and had that pregnancy. And so even
though I never envisioned myself like having an abortion, and
even though I had been like very I had been
very pro choice and very like pro abortion, but when

(33:42):
I went through the experience, I think I understood the stigma,
and I think I was at first afraid of that,
and then eventually it was like, well, I can sit
here and be afraid, or I can step into my power.
And so, you know, as an organizer, I would always say,
everyone loves someone who had an abortion. And if you

(34:02):
don't know anyone who had an abortion, I did, and
you love me. Yeah, And just like being able to
talk very openly with people about what my experience was.
You know, I think at this point I felt like
at the time again I was like, Oh, this is
so rough. I have to go through all these hoops
to have an abortion, and now my story is one

(34:23):
of these unfortunately compared to what people are dealing with.
But back then it really drove my activism because I
I understood the isolation, I understood the stigma. I found
out I was pregnant at an urgent care. I had
pregnancy acne, which I hope no one has the joy
of dealing with. You essentially are covered and like they

(34:47):
look like mosquito bites. They're huge all over your body,
and they're itchy. And I was covered and I could
not figure out what was wrong with me. And I
go to the urgent care and I'm expecting them to
give me some kind of ointment. And they came in
with two nurses and they closed the door and they

(35:08):
were all standing in the corner, and I just I
was like, this is it. I have like an STI
or something.

Speaker 5 (35:14):
I have cancer? No, Oh my god, And what a
way to do that.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
They told me, they say, is there any chance you
might be pregnant? And I said no, and they said,
well you are pregnant. Oh well I burst into tears.
And the doctor unfortunately, wasn't like very supportive. She was like,
who's the father, Like who like can call him? Put

(35:41):
me on the phone, and I was like, thankfully. The
nurse he was such a gentleman. He was handing me
tissues and he was like, can we have a minute,
and so it's just me and him and he was like,
I know you're sad that like this is happening, and yeah,
I think just being in that condition, I mean it's

(36:01):
so like I we're talking about something that happened ten
years ago and I can still tell you everything, the details,
who the people were. You know, It's like when you
feel that isolation and stigma, it really sticks with you.

Speaker 5 (36:18):
Yeah that doctor.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
Wow, Okay, but this is kind of that conversation about
what anti choice looks like and what it means when
we see that as a stigma and how it's treated
and it causes even much more traumatic response. You shouldn't
have to dealt with any of that to understand, No,
this is not where I can be right now.

Speaker 5 (36:37):
I cannot be in this place.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
And if I am, if I go follow these things
because I don't have a choice. Then I essentially have
stopped everything. Like for me, it feels like I'm stopping everything.
And then the doctor may like, let's talk to the man.

Speaker 5 (36:50):
You're like, bro, what yeah?

Speaker 1 (36:54):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
I worked after I had that experience. A couple of
years later. I became involved with the Blue Ridge Apportion Fund,
and I would do calls and like, that's the thing
when people want to talk to me about abortion rights,
like and want to have this legal debate. I mean
that experience. I spoke to so many people who said,
this isn't what I want to do. But I have

(37:16):
children already. I can't feed them. This is an economic
choice for me. This isn't This isn't do I want
a baby or not want a baby? I mean, And
even that doctor she her experience was that she and
her boyfriend at the time got pregnant, they had the kid,
they got married, they went on to have more kids.
And that's beautiful, but that's not everyone's life. And that

(37:37):
wouldn't have been my life if I would have continued.

Speaker 5 (37:40):
Right, and she had that choice, like that was her choice,
and that's beautiful. Good on her.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
We're glad to see it, but that's not everybody's story,
and that's the understanding of choice.

Speaker 6 (37:50):
Well, yeah, I'm okay.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
I was researching for a potential. I thought it was
gonna be a short episode, and I was not myself
on the head because I was like, why would you
think this would ever be a short episode. But MPR
is doing this whole series on population shift and about
why no one's having kids anymore. Nobody wants to have
kids anymore. But it's more it's they can't afford them.
It's just that's what it is. And a lot of

(38:17):
people do actually want to have kids and cannot and
are making a choice about you know, I can't afford
to have this kid. So that is definitely something is
we're getting it to a breaking point with that. I think.
I don't know if anything will actually happen about it,

(38:38):
but a breaking point is being reached. And it's interesting
to me because when I was fifteen, I got sent
to a gynecologist for migraines, I think, and the kind
of cologist told me I was pregnant and it was
man and I started crying. I was like, this is

(38:59):
and he called my dad. He didn't call my mom.
He called my dad and I was just sobbing in
the background, and I wasn't pregnant. Apparently sometimes you can
just get a false pregnancy notice on the little test,
and uh, it was so traumatic that I still remember

(39:20):
it and I wrote a horror story out. I love horror,
but I it was. It was devastating. It was that
was gonna be my whole life. And he called my dad.
He called my dad.

Speaker 6 (39:37):
Oh that stigma around that, yeah, And.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
The purpose of calling your dad was candative, like that
was the person that was going to be upset that
his daughter was having sex. And like, I mean, my
heart breaks for teenagers now because they're getting so much
misinformation and particularly like this demonization of birth control, like
birth control is bad for mental health? You know what
also is that for mental health? Pregnancy dating men.

Speaker 3 (40:08):
We're about to do an episode about an article I
don't know if you read it, Caitlin, about how it's embarrassed.
Is it embarrassing to have a boyfriend?

Speaker 6 (40:15):
Now? Have you read this?

Speaker 5 (40:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (40:18):
Yeah, but yeah, I'm like, deal, that's We're also about
to do an episode I cannot wait to talk about,
but about the influx of media told.

Speaker 6 (40:32):
From usually white middle aged mothers who have had a.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
Done and they're tired of dealing with men's bulls. So yeah,
I mean, I think that it's just only so long.

Speaker 6 (40:52):
It's exhausting.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
All of this is exhausting and it's expensive, and I
think people are tired of it and been for a while,
and it's bubbling over. One of the things we did
want to I guess kind of related I'll talk to
you about is for a long time, art and activism
have been very closely related. That it is a way

(41:15):
to get these messages out there, to bring awareness to
issues that maybe people don't want to engage.

Speaker 6 (41:21):
With until unless it's with art.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Why do you think that art and activism goes so
well together and that it's so effective.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
There is research that shows that when there is art,
people are more likely to stop than their feeds, and
they're more likely to stop for a longer period of
time than they've been normally, And so already you have
people's attention in a different way. I think something that
I've been thinking all out a lot, and if you
look at my recent work, I've been doing a lot

(41:54):
more like scenes or portraits of people. Art has the
ability for us to actually put faces to the issues
and to see who it is. You know, I think
about so many of the group pieces I do. Like,
you know, when we're talking about disability, we are talking
about a huge group of people. We are talking about
an umbrella that includes short term disabuilding, long term mental, intellectual, physical,

(42:18):
Like there's there's so much and in particular with the
disabled community, like anyone can become disabled any time, and
those experiences are all radically different, and so being able
to sort of pull out those stories and I think,
you know, I try to do this, like even with
like I posted about birth control yesterday, It's like birth

(42:41):
control rocks for preventing pregnancy, but there are also so
many other uses for it, like and let's not just
talk about people who need it for health reasons, Yes,
that's super important, but also for trans people who want
to bleed on their own terms, or maybe they don't
want to have periods, Like there are so many reasons.
And when we just blank it, say no birth control,

(43:03):
it's bad, it's whatever. You know. I think we're seeing
it with the abortion bands, where there are so many
people getting caught up, they're having miscarriages and they're not
getting the care they need because it's no abortions whatsoever.
We're not We're just being told one narrative when there
are so many perspectives and there's so many reasons someone

(43:23):
might need access to something.

Speaker 5 (43:26):
That's so much.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
And I'm just wondering because again, you've been doing this
for a little while, You've been doing this artwork for
a while, and activism artivism as I know it is
said specific to you, because I've never heard that term
until I resoarched he.

Speaker 5 (43:39):
I was like, Oh, that makes sense. I like it.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
But do you a remember your first piece that really
got out there and can you tell what it is?
And what is do you have a favorite or is
it just like now they're all my babies.

Speaker 6 (43:53):
Ooh.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
I think the piece that did the most it was
in twenty for the George Floyd protests. It was an
image of three people protesting with masks and it was
something like if there's no justice for the people, let
there be no piece for the government, or something about that.

(44:16):
And that was I think the first piece that like
really like popped off and like got a large amount
of attention. We were able to like fundraise and donate
a bunch of money. I forgot where it's been five years.
I'm sure I could look it up, but we donated
it to I believe a bail fund, and just I

(44:37):
love when the art has its moment on social but
also can you know, sort of have real life impact
in terms of my favorite piece. Oh, that's such a
good question. For the longest time, I have a piece
that I love using limited color palettes, as as you

(44:57):
may have noticed by looking at my work, big fan
of color, and I have a piece it's black and
white and then it has pops of pink and it
says fighting oppression despite my depression. And that was made
in like twenty twenty one, right before I left my job,
right like after row, like all of these things, like

(45:20):
it was just I don't know, I look at that
and I see the fighter despite everything. Even at that time,
I was like, I'm going to keep fighting and I
don't know. I look at that piece and I used
to say that in my relationship, my only window to
the world was my social media, that my fans posting online.

(45:41):
That was genuinely the thing that kept me going. And
when I left that room, my world became so much bigger.
And now my world is so rich. I used to
feel like I used to feel like liberal Jane was
the only thing about me, and now I feel like
it's a part of me, but it's not the only thing. Yeah.
Just that that Peace in particular has an illustration of

(46:02):
somebody sitting at their window saying this. It just feels
like it's foreshadowing what's going to happen.

Speaker 5 (46:09):
I mean, you're speaking to a lot of people with
that base, like they understand that the depth of that
to be like, you gotta do this, but we got this. Yeah,
I love it.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
Do you have someone who influenced you at all in
the art world or do you there's someone that you
look up to or Field was a mentor for you.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
That's a great question. I was very lucky to come
up with a number of artivists and so we have
like a little group chat on Instagram. We all keep
in touch. And then I'm also a part there's a
collective cult artist for radical Imagination, and that's artists all
over the world who again want social change through their work.

(46:53):
I think in terms of artists, I'm a huge fan
of Mirando July. She is a living artist who I
think just deserves so much more attention than she gets,
but she's a big influence. And then in terms of illustration,
I believe it's Laura Callahan. She does gorgeous illustrations and

(47:16):
I think, like I feel so spiritually connected to her
because when I was going through my divorce, I kept
looking at that photo of Nicole Kidman, you know, with
her arms up in the air, and Laura had done
an illustration like maybe a week or two before I
got my divorce, and I was like, this is for me,
Like Laura is reading my mind. It's for me. And

(47:38):
I love her work her uh, the way she does expressions,
and she draws mostly women as well, and the expressions
are just amazing.

Speaker 6 (47:49):
Yes, excited to look that up.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
And So you've been mentioning social media and Instagram these
are the ways that you've got your art out there
and really have this community. What over the years, have
you seen any changes when it comes to social media
platforms and your work.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
Yeah, definitely. I mean I think the fall of Twitter
is its own thing. I feel like I get my
two biggest platforms are Instagram and Facebook, which is lots
of fun. Facebook in particular, I would say at this
point they conservatives will do these like raids where they

(48:47):
will storm a post they don't agree with, and honestly,
that happens probably once or twice a week at least,
And like, you know, the more I post, the more
heat I get. And I'm grateful I have a moderator,
but it's definitely at least still, especially when it starts
leaking into like my personal life, like people will send
me messages on my personal Facebook page, or you know,

(49:08):
just trying to intimidate me, or I've heard you know,
oh your artists, so all these things to try to
get me to stop. I'm not stopping. Don't worry. You know,
if my family couldn't stop me from making art, I
don't think a faceless name online will. But there's definitely

(49:30):
been a shift, and I think I have felt on
Instagram it does feel like there's less of a community
on there, and perhaps that's like the shift to reels,
and I'm so resistant to that. I don't want I
just I don't know. I refuse to make video context
that's not my medium, and so like it does stink

(49:51):
to feel like I'm being punished by the algorithm for that,
And I know a lot of artists are feeling that,
But you know, I think at this point in twenty
twenty five, the people like I have a Patreon that
people can join for free, and that has more of community,
I think, even than Instagram does at times.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
Yeah, I've heard that about Patreon because Patreon is kind
of a thing you have to seek out as opposed
to Instagram. Kind of feels like something that at one
time we all just had. Yeah, so that makes sense.
Also related to this, we have talked a lot on
this show about censorship and how that can look on

(50:33):
social media. Has that been something that you've had to
deal with. Has that impacted you at all?

Speaker 2 (50:40):
Absolutely? It's very hard to talk about abortion online. But
I have gotten content removed. I used to work on
self manage abortion when I worked in nonprofit, and so
that is sharing the World Health Organization's protocol for how
somebody can use the pills on their own. I've gotten
in trouble a handful of times posting that I've actually had.
I have a piece that says, if you want to

(51:02):
ban abortions, we'll learn to do them ourselves. I can't
post that anywhere. Anytime I post it, it's deleted for
inciting violence. Despite what we are literally referencing the World
Health Organizations protocols. So there's that. I have worked with
a lot of repro orcs on the censorship aspect, and

(51:23):
anytime I do a brand deal where it's like sex
toys or anything like that, like a lot of them
like will send you like a one pager of like,
oh you want to say sex, here, here's how you
have to spell it, and like here are the emojis
to you so we can get around the algorithm. And
it's people get very frustrated with me, especially when in

(51:44):
the art the word sex is censored. But I've gotten
in trouble for posting. I have a piece that says
sex edge should not have shame or stigma or something
like that, and because it has the word sex, we're
talking about sex ed right. Because it has the word sex,
it's inappropriate and it's like, well, how do we talk
about it?

Speaker 5 (52:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
We actually had an episode with friend of the show Bridget,
and she came specifically talking about reproductive organizations being banned
and having their entire accounts taken off, like them having
hundreds of thousands of followers and all of a sudden
losing all of that. Even organizations and platforms saying yeah,
that was kind of a mistake because you really didn't
violate that, because like, yeah, how is that inciting violence?

(52:30):
If you were saying no, this is how you do
this from an actual established organization that teaches health around
the world, Like what is going on? How is that violent?
And then not being able to come back and repel
any of those types of accounts or a specific posts,
and the fact that it is getting harder and harder
and they're having less accountability in their own standards. That's

(52:55):
got to be so terrifying. And then also having to
deal with your fans and be like, no, I'm not
I'm just trying to make sure I can still do.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
This, trying to get you the information, like I'm you know,
I did a series with how to use the abortion
pilllar in an organization international. We did a series on digital
censorship of repro and people got really upset with me,
and I was like, well, these are guides, you know.
One of them was what to do if you have
to keep your abortion a secret, and like, you know,

(53:25):
the digital side of it, and that information is so important,
but yeah, the word abortion is censored throughout the entire
post and I I get that. It's frustrating. I'm frustrated because,
you know, like I just want to I don't. I
don't want to write sex as se c Q, like
I aged, you know something. I see posts out in

(53:47):
the wild from repro orgs and I'm like, what what
are you saying? And then I have to like say
it out loud to be like, oh, that's the word.
And it's like because we have to be so creative.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
Right right, Like people are using grape instead of rape
on like videos and everybody gets like, well, I can't
you just say it? You're like no, really, they can't
say it, or this video won't exist or those posts
won't exist.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
And it bleeds into real life. I used to have TikTok.
I deleted it, but I found myself saying unlived and
I was like, yeah, no, no, no, no, that's not right.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
And this is a twofold conversation. It's like they're doing
the conservative I guess far right are doing exactly what
they want to do, which makes it unseerious. It feels
like it's no longer educational but a mimic like a
meme or something, and it's like, no, but this is
the only way you can do it. They have purposely

(54:40):
done this so it won't be taken seriously, or that
people are just frustrated and don't care about the actual
information in here, which.

Speaker 5 (54:48):
Is so scary and so faking smart. I hate bad
people are smart.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Yeah, me too. Lobotomies for all billionaire men.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
Thank you, I said behind that went too. So obviously
you your art is activism and advocacy, but again you
are a boots on the ground activist as well. Can
you talk about some of the work you have done
in the past and organizations that you've been working with
or have worked with as of late.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
Yeah, like I mentioned, because of burnout, I think I
took a step back from a lot of things. Still
very involved in the repro and abortion space, but I
think personally, like the boundary for me is I don't
necessarily do direct support anymore like I used to do
the phone calls for the Abortion Fund. Then, like I think,
you know, being empathetic is a great quality, but also

(55:42):
knowing that the toll it takes on you and being
able to set those personal boundaries is really good. So
a lot of what I've been doing is behind the scenes.
A lot of supportive, you know, creating art for nonprofits,
sort of doing background work. And so I think the
biggest areas a focus, especially this year. Of course, abortion
rights for reproductive rights I think will always be up there,

(56:05):
just because my experience, but also LGBTQ liberation, especially trans
rights right now, and really putting a face to trans people.
And really, you know, I think I've been thinking a
lot about like how do we expand this definition of

(56:26):
gender firming care to be like, you know, when I
get my hair done, that's gender firming care. When I
get my nails done. You know, it's like, let's let's
open up this conversation more. And then, of course, something
that's like always been very close to my heart is
just what's happening with immigrants right now and ICE. I
live here in Baltimore and we're essentially preparing for ICE

(56:49):
in the next several weeks. Donald Trump, of course, you know,
named a handful of US cities that are beyond and
you know, criminal and Baltimore was up there, and it's
very strange living here and I live in the community
that's mostly immigrants and just seeing in the day to
day it's just such a vibrant community and the fact

(57:12):
that we're being threatened with militarization when these are people
that are just living their lives. That to me is
just awful. I feel like we're raising the next generation
of super villains by like yanking parents away from kids,
and just like I I just, yeah, my heart breaks

(57:33):
thinking about like the generational toll of what we've been
doing over the last five ten years. I mean, I'm
beyond that, but especially in this latest iteration.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
I mean definitely we're living in a part of that
generational toll, which is the nightmare that we're like what
like everybody's been warning about and now we're making it
ten times worse with what is happening today. And I
have to get kudos to you, like learning to step
away when everything in you wants to be like.

Speaker 5 (58:00):
No, but I have to do this. No one is
going to do this. I have to do this.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
My background is in social work, and I worked as
a case manager for many situations, and the burnout is legitimate,
Like you literally waste the way, whether it's in sickness,
whether it's mental health, like or physical sickness and mental
health stuff, like there's so much, only so much that
you can give until you fall apart and you can't

(58:26):
give to anything. And so having the fortitude and understanding
and listening to your body, listening to your mental health
is a strength in itself. And I think we've said
this to our listeners repeatedly. As a person who constantly
growing up was told I need to be grateful and
give back. That's the only way that I can truly

(58:48):
be thankful to the white saviors of my life, you know, like,
even though they may not like require it of me,
the teachings that I have is understand that that's what
I was supposed to be doing, but realize that that
is actually another toxic part of a patriarchal system with
white supremacy that really is a way to get rid
of us. And so for you to do that, I

(59:11):
think it needs to be complimented and it needs to
be uplifted, Like people need to know it is okay,
and it is better for you to take that time
so you can come back round and not completely give out.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
So yeah, I just thank you, first of all. I
do so appreciate that. You know, I think I've been
seeing over the last five ten years, especially in nonprofit
there's this push to have the people with the lived
experience leading, which is fantastic. I am super excited about them.
I'm excited to see people who have actually experienced what
we are talking about leading. But I think the part

(59:50):
of it that we are still missing is that care
and burnout prevention. Like I think it's like, we have
the impacted person, but we're not thinking about are we
taking care of them mentally spiritually? Like is there you know,
those of the nonprofit have health insurance so they can
see a therapist, right, and yeah, I think you know,

(01:00:11):
on the surface, it's like, yeah, this is great, but
we're I've seen so many of the people I started
in nonprofit with are in the same boat of burnout.
They are now doing their own thing or they switch field.
And it's not because they don't care, it's just you
care too much.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Yeah, which brings me to the next question that I
always feel guilty asking people because you're doing so much already,
But is there anything that you have on the horizon
that you're really excited about or.

Speaker 6 (01:00:46):
That you would like to shout out?

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Yes, I have been working on a graphic novel for
several years. It is about half written at this point,
and it's something I did take break from when I
was going through life, but I've picked it up in
the last several months, and I'm excited about that because
unlike social media, where I only get maybe six to

(01:01:11):
seven seconds of someone's attention, a book is like sit
down with me and let's actually sit and like put
image to words. And I'm very excited it has to
do essentially, it has a lot to do with intergenerational drama,
and in particular the way that conservatism affects small towns

(01:01:34):
and the way that like anti trans rhetoric plays out
in school districts. And how you know this is, I mean,
I think about the Moms for Liberty and stuff and
parental rights and that whole movement and just I don't
want to say humanizing it, but exploring it and also

(01:01:55):
giving people the tools to fight back against staff.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
Oh well, you're speaking to at heart, so that makes
you having a plan the minute you publish, please contact
us so we can have you on the show. We
need to be at least number two on your list
of shows to be on.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
I'm just kidding, no number one, number one. You guys
got me on the on the ground floor. I'm only
going up from here, so I will not forget.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
Y'all, okay, because we love graphic novels up here, and
you're talking our language like you are a part of
our community. In this conversation that you're saying are like
speaking to our heart. You must be back for this.
We claim you.

Speaker 6 (01:02:31):
That's so cool, that's exciting.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Yes, please please come back on to talk about that.
We would love to do it. But this conversation has
been so lovely. We would have you back anytime. Thank
you for being here. How can the good listeners find you?

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
I am Liberal Jane across social media. I am on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter,
Blue Sky, threads, tumbler, and maybe TikTok.

Speaker 5 (01:02:58):
I got your TikTok.

Speaker 6 (01:03:02):
Tumbler. Yes, I love this, okay all the way back.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Well, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for
being here, and definitely come back. Definitely come back when
the graphic novel comes out.

Speaker 6 (01:03:16):
That sounds amazing.

Speaker 5 (01:03:18):
Well do.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Thank you both so much for having me. It's been
so fun.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
And listeners, if you would like to contact us, you
can or email us hello at stuff Whenever Told You
dot com. You can find us on Blue Sky, at
mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
I Never Told You or else on YouTube. We have
new merchandise at Compureau and we have the book you
can get wherever you get here. Thanks as always too,
our super producer Ristina, our executive puer My.

Speaker 6 (01:03:39):
And your contributor Joey.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Thank you and thanks to you for

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Listening Stuff and Never Told You Reflection of by Heart
Radio for our podcast from My Heart Radio, you can
check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast or if
you listen to your favorite shows,