February 19, 2025 • 56 mins
What is bioethics? How do we deal with all of the misinformation and disinformation in the realm of public health? What are some of the silver linings we can look to? Expert Evan the bioethicist is here to answer those questions and more.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Stefan never told your production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
And today we are having what I would call a
wonderful fantasy crossover for me, specifically because my TikTok world
is coming onto the Sminty world. That is correct, and
I'm so excited because we have a bioethicist and expert
in the field of public health.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And Okay, first of all, that's just one of.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
The mini hats that they wear, so I'm just gonna
leave it at that, but I'm so excited. Evan, Welcome
to s Minty, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Can you introduce yourself to our listeners.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
I can. My name is Evan and I am I
go by Evan the bioethicist on TikTok. I work in
public health, but I also have a background in all
things related to misinformation, disinformation, and conspiracy theories as they
affect public health. And this includes things like biotechnology, AI
and media so much.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
And you just did like a very succinct introduction because
as I was like looking you up, because I know
you from TikTok, the discovery of TikTok, because the listeners
know I'm obsessed. But when I was reading through the
articles that you have the like the education, your background,
your career filed, I'm like, my gosh, I think we
(01:34):
need well you were talking about want to expand. I
think you need a podcast and if you want to
come on to ours more often.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
I don't know anything about the podcasting world. People have
said I need a podcast. I don't know what that entails.
I am open to learning, though, Hey.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I love that you're stepping in with us, because I
do feel like, again, this is one of those moments
where I fan girl a little too much because I'm like,
I've seen them so often on my feed and they
tell me great information. Now they're here and I'm just
gonna pick their brains. Which I've already warned you. It
was like, be ready questions.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
I'm open for it. I'm available good.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Like I said, I'm so excited to talk about your
work and your experiences and just your overall expertise because
there's a lot going on in the world.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
A lot.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yes, that is true, Yes, it definitely is.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
A lot of people have told me that my research,
which I finished school about two years ago now, was
very precin and I'm like, you know, yeah, I didn't
realize how much, so but.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
You know, yeah, well here you are. Can you for
those of us that might not know, can you give
us a brief explanation of what a bioethicist is and does?
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Absolutely? I know when you know your listeners and my mom,
I tell you right, So, a bioethicist. There's this thing
called medical humanities, and in the science there's like the
science humanities, and so it's essentially those are folks who
are who do the like social science part of like
(03:17):
hard sciences. I don't really love calling things hard and
soft sciences, but you know, so, a bioethicist is someone
who has a background in training in things like decision
making policy. We learn about qualitative methodology when it comes
to research. We talk a lot about things like consent
when it comes to research subjects. So we talk a
(03:40):
lot about ethical design and principles That can range from
everything from like transplantation ethics and policy to clinical bioethics,
which is helping people decide things around like religion, beliefs,
like people want to be I have a DNR DNI.
There's like so much to it and every bioethicist is
(04:01):
very different. A lot of bioethicists combine their bioethics training
with like a medical degree, like being an MD or
being a JD. So you'll see a lot of bioethicists
who cause play as lawyers and doctors. But we're many things,
which is why you don't hear about them as often
because oftentimes, you know, people know what a lawyer is,
(04:23):
people know what a physician or a doctor is, and
so they don't really know that the person that they
know who's a lawyer or a doctor is is a
bioethicist or practices bioethics rather than is practicing medicine or law.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That makes sense, thank you, because I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
It wasn't until I again stumbled on your page that
I was like, what what is this? Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
That makes sense? Like it makes sense when you.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Hear it after the fact, you're like, yeah, that's necessary.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I like this.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
And to be fair, we've only started to endeavor bioethicists
as a standalone profession, and having started to endeavor bioethics
in public health, it's not super super common that someone
is like, I'm just a bioethicis like that is my training. Fully,
that is what I'm interested in, and I work in
public health and those things are super rare. Now they're growing,
(05:12):
They're ever growing, and there's more and more of us
every year.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
But.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Newer.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So what made you choose this work exactly?
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Originally, historically in undergrad I had been pre med and
then somebody told me that I had to do rotations
where I had to treat patients. And I never wanted
to do that. I know that sounds kooky, but I
had always wanted to have the training in medicine. I
never wanted to treat people. I had thought I would
go into things like forensics, and then I realized I
(05:43):
actually really like the more expansive or like population health
based work that comes with public health. But I still
love the medical humanities. I still love talking to people
about like what does it mean to like think about
zeno transplantation, or like I love telling people. I love
telling people about how important horseshoe crabs are to protecting
(06:04):
us from having unsterile like medications, especially cancer medications which
are injectables. Like that fuels me these like sort of weird,
quirky facts. But an also like the complexity that comes
with like thought and decision making. A lot of people
don't think about how does policy happen, how do decisions happen?
(06:26):
What influences medicine? And I love talking about those things.
I love learning about them. I've been recently, I know
if Samantha, since you watched my TikTok, you know how
much I've been delving into like disgusted as like a
philosophic concept.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So yeah, I'm not gonna lie. That one went over
my head.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
I had to sit there and like, as you were
talking about these series, I had to go back and
I was.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Like, wait, what huh?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Because that in itself as a question didn't doesn't rise
in my head.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Does that make sense? I was like, oh, huh huh.
So there's so.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Many Okay, obviously again with a fangirl is like, there
are so many moments where I've had to take your
video which is a little longer than your typical like
ten second or fifteen second run up, because you give
so much information that I have to go back and
listen to a few times, and each time I feel
like I'm catching onto something different in a lesson. So
it does feel like I'm getting a good school learning
(07:22):
when I'm listening to your stuff. But again, like it
rises to new questions that I'm like, I haven't even
thought of that one.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
And that's the idea. I mean. When I originally started
to endeavor to create my page and really curate it
with information, I was thinking critically around, like, how can
this be an educational tool? How can people use this?
Can people revisit what I've said? And so I love
that people say that they come back and watch a
video over over, because yeah, a lot of these things
(07:50):
are not things you're going to like consume once and
be like, oh, I got it, Like that's good. I like,
but reflection is part of it, right, Like that's like you.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Know yeah, yeah, I mean it's obviously if you're an
expert in something, it makes sense that somebody in one
video watch would be like, yes, understood. So with everything
that we've alluded to that it is happening today, especially
in the US perhaps, and as you mentioned, you have
(08:19):
expertise in combating misinformation and disinformation when it comes to
public health. That seems like a really huge task. Can
you tell us what this type of work actually looks like.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
It looks like a lot of things, but one of
the primary things I like to point out for people
is that a lot of people think this is like
a newer thing, and especially in medicine and health, misinformation
and disinformation and conspiracy theories have always existed. I mean,
I could go all the way back to the first
like organized invention of like vaccination with cowpox, right, which
(08:56):
we were injecting people with a live virus to protect
against smallpox. And there was a number of newspapers that
put out like, you know, sort of tongue in cheek
cartoons of people turning into cows, right, and that influenced
people into thinking or trying or avoiding vaccination because they
were afraid they would be turned into a cow. So
(09:18):
the first thing is to know the history of it,
and the second thing is to also know the difference
between misinformation and disinformation. A lot of people use those interchangeably,
and they're not the same. Misinformation is just somebody really
not understanding the science of medicine. Any one of us
has been guilty of creating it. You know, if you've
ever been to the doctor and they told you, you know,
like some big fancy word that you did not recognize,
(09:41):
like gastroparesis, and you came home and you were like,
I have gastro parents, and I don't know what that means.
You've inadvertently created misinformation. Doctors, public health experts, all of
those were always dealing with having to sort of be corrective.
And it's not malicious, it's just people who aren't trained
(10:03):
in science won't get everything. But disinformation is an intentional
creation of information that is wrong, and it usually has
monetary value. There's usually something that someone can get out
of creating disinformation, and there's a way that they can
monetize that, either the platform or they can drive people
(10:26):
to purchase something. There's all different ways that they do it.
And then they also target particular populations, so they have
a design. It has a science and a design to it,
and a distribution tacked and technique. So those are the
things that I think are like the most pressing in
my mind when it comes to the like at the
very if we're going to start to unravel it.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, and we are big over here in making sure
we understand the conversation when it comes to misinformation and disinformation.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So thank you for clarifying that.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Also, you do talk about the fact that misinformation can
happen even with people with good intentions.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I know.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
I think I've probably been guilty of this as well,
because you hear something that's very hyperbolic and you take
it literal because I'm a very literal person. So you
can't tell me something and then not clarify immediately because
I'll be like, what so when we do that, what
is something that you think we should how we should
handle our own giving misinformation.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
I always want to encourage people, especially people with a
media platform of some sort, to really check the information
and the facts that they're sharing, and also to look
at what facts do I need to share or not
need to share, or what's the context I'm providing. The
best example I can give is I know plenty of
people on TikTok and other places that really want to
(11:47):
keep people informed about bird flu. The issue is is
that they're not contextualizing bird flu by talking about the
number of deaths or the number of people infected so far,
the point of transmission. These are very important heat of
components to leave out. And then also if you're really
worried about something like communicable disease, to be making video
(12:09):
after video after a video about bird flu, but not
making a video being really informative around the actual seasonal flu,
which we have an incredible amount of hospitalizations, a record
number of hospitalizations this year when it comes to seasonal flu,
and I just sort of think it's really misleading. I
understand why people want to be informative about bird flu
(12:30):
because there's a lot of unknowns, But if you're not
an expert in public health and don't understand who's tracking it,
and don't understand what the threat level is from the
perspective of someone working in public health, then you can
really kind of be distracting more than you can be informative.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Oh oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
With that, With the fact that the US pulling out
of you know who, and the recent firings of so
many people from the public health and the CDC, a
lot of people are really concerned about not getting correct
or accurate information. What is some advice you would give
us lay people who has to watch your videos five
(13:18):
times to understand what's going on in trying to find
the most accurate and up to date health information.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
I always like to remind people that they do live
in a multi layered governance space, and so you can
when it First of all, the way that it works
when it comes to tracking disease for the CDC is
the CDC works on a like a reporting up model,
And so what often happens for people or the process
is that local so like municipal and state entities usually
(13:48):
report up to the CDC, and the CDC gathers those
numbers and then looks at trends and then does outward
reporting nationally. Right, So the good news is is that
the things that are being reported or tracked depending on
where you live. Now, the caveat I will say here
is that not all municipalities are treated equal. But depending
on where you live, your local health department is just
(14:11):
as in the know as the CDC, if not more so,
because they're doing the reporting up for the CDC to
like an EIS officer or other folks. So I would
encourage people to actually be more exploratory with their local
again like city health department or their county health department
or their state health department. For folks who feel like
(14:34):
they can't trust those entities either, and I understand why,
I would also look to nonpartisan organizations. I've pointed out
places like the APHA CSTE, which is like the Council
of State and Territorial Epidemiologists. Those are some organizations I
think off the top, there's an organization called NASDAD that
(14:57):
focuses mainly on HIV and STIs. So these organizations are
non partisan, but also they are private entities. They do
government contracting, so they have a lot of good relationships
with state, municipal and federal public health experts. But you
can also sign up for the WHO newsletter use an
(15:18):
individual can interface with WHO yourself. A lot of people
don't realize that they can do that.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah again, TikTok novel. Well I'm so, I'm so one TikTok.
I gotta stop.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
But newsletters always kind of for new I always want
to encourage people to sign up for newsletters when it
comes to public health and informing yourself.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
That's such a great idea.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
I forget about newsletters like this is in the age
of social media, and even though I grew up in
the age of newsletters and actual newspapers, I still kind
of forget.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I'm like, oh, yeah, that does exist.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Look at this.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I think there's a lot in this conversation. You again,
I want to talk about some of the series that
you've done because you do a great job. And talking
about health and policy, you're doing a great job. And
talking about black history. You just talked about disability and
the Black Panthers and all like what so much, so
much great information. So listeners, if you don't, if you haven't,
(16:14):
you need to go walk in. But I do want
to kind of get it in some of the negativity,
and we're going to come to positive too, but just
because you know, we do the bad news version and
the good news. So historically and today, society and governments
for the most part have ignored or erased women and
marginalized people when it comes to public health, illness, sicknesses,
and safety in general. What are some things you've seen
(16:37):
during your career or even in your studies that are
concerning in this area.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
The thing that concerns me the most is actually stigma.
Stigma for certain populations and stigma for certain public health conditions.
So the two that I would give as examples is.
The first stigma I would give is around like sex workers.
I think there's a huge amount I mean no, I
don't think I know that there's a huge man stigma
around that being the way that people engage in their
(17:05):
like you know, commerce exchange. I do like to remind
everyone that all of us who do labor are exchanging
our labor and our bodies for money. We're just not
exchanging a particular kind of labor for money. But the
stigma that really ensnares and in circles sex workers is
really insidious because we a lot of us buy into it.
(17:26):
A lot of us are very paternalistic, and so the
way that we talk about public health and sex workers
still sort of demands controlling people's bodies or imperiling the
way that people make money to pay their bills that
they may be comfortable with and they are consenting to
and they like doing. It's very easy to have a
(17:47):
conversation with people around sex work and people not wanting
to do it. It's very uncomfortable to have a conversation
with people around sex work, and how do we protect
folks who do want to be doing that work, how
do we interface with them in a way that's just
like morally benign. We want to really moralize these things
(18:07):
when we talk about stigma. And then the other one
is like things like STIs, particularly STIs that are very
easy to transmit and transenda and end up with Like
so things like chlamydia, for example, it's a very treatable STI.
It's very easy to transmit if you've had sexual contact
with someone. But we've still really highly stigmatized someone who
(18:31):
has a history of having caught or transmitted chlamydia. We
don't have the same stigmatization for things like the common cold,
we don't have the same We don't stigmatize someone who's
given us COVID even though they've you know, done some
real serious harm. But it's because we know the transmission
point that we've really stigmatized sti's and that leads into
(18:53):
other things too, like more chronic conditions like herpes and HIV.
When we stigmatize things, it means it's hard to treat
or care for them. I would love to see in
public health we get to a point where we ask
people about the work that they do, and someone can
reveal that they do sex work and it has no
moral bearings on how they're treated. And I would really
(19:13):
love to see at a day and age where somebody
can go into clinical space and talk about their past
history or their current experience with a chronic STI or
a chronic disease that they acquired through sexual transmission, and
it also be morally benign, and we treat it the
same way we treat someone living with chronic cancer or
(19:36):
someone with You know that they need a certain kind
of care, but it doesn't have bearing on how they're
going to be treated. I think that's what's Those are
the things that are super concerning and in the current
politicized the thing that really concerns me overall is how
we politicize public health, and especially how we politicize marginalized
(19:57):
folks or vulnerable populations. On top of that, right, and
the neglect of things like people with disability and the
weaponization of things like the weaponization of like anti trans
rhetoric to try and tear down Section five oh four,
for example, which is for disabilities. It's a protection for
folks with disabilities. These things don't live in bubbles and isolation,
(20:19):
and a lot of these things where they all dump
out is public health.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, Well, coming to the positive, what are some of
the more encouraging things that you have seen.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
In public health? Yeah? Oh man, there's like so many.
I think that I love that you asked this because
I love talking about how amazing public health is first
of all, a lot of public health practitioners, a lot
of people have become more interested in public health as
a profession. I love that I've been seeing a lot
(20:55):
more mixed methodology and public health research, and this is
super important to talk about causation, especially around things like
racial disparities in public health. Historically, people have done research
in public health where they primarily researched disparities but didn't
sort of stopped there, and so we'd often hear like, oh,
(21:16):
you know, maternal health, like maternal mortality statistics are really
bad for black women, and they're you know, different for
this group and this group. But more and more researchers
have started to realize that if they're going to talk
about health disparities, especially racially, then they need to also
point out that the cause isn't race itself, like biologically
(21:38):
or inherently, it's racism in a system. And so that
requires less quantitative methodology and also qualitative methodology interviewing focused groups,
surveying on top of the quantitative work that you want
to be doing. So I'm really excited to see what
(22:00):
I think is going to be much more incisive and
insightful research from folks. And then the other thing too,
is like like biomedical breakthroughs, like the fact that you
can have you have injectibles. I mean recently it was
just like National HIV Day and we have injectables now
for HIV care. That means someone can come in once
(22:23):
every three months for an injectible and managed to maintain
ANNDIE an undetectable viral load. I mean that is such
a feat in a generation from back in the nineties
where people were having to take sort of fistfuls of
medication just to stay alive and the side effects were very,
(22:45):
very aggressive, painful and debilitating. So there's amazing work happening
in care and treatment that we're able to promote in
public health.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I love that. I feel like we need balances.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
We need to know the truth and dark, but we
need to know that things are happening whether or not
we see it. You know, you did bring up the
whole thing with the disability acts and what's going down
in public health, and I've seen more and more people
coming out like this is this is a whole conversation,
an abless conversation that's using trans people as a weapon
(23:21):
against this disabled people's and how it comes down to,
as you and I are having a conversation before about
eugenics and what this looks like in general, what are
some things that we need to be watching for as
they're having this big conversation about this.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
I think the weaponization of different vulnerable populations against other
groups is a big one, and not just like in
how we stigmatize certain groups, but in like the section
five h four is such a good example because it's
being weaponized in an attempt to be cruel to trans people,
(23:56):
we may inadvertently dismantle something that it has been an
incredible necessity for rights to access for a number of
number of things. Another of supports resources, et cetera for
folks with disabilities, and so our transphobia has a huge
cost and is going to be the right for someone
(24:20):
with a disability to have assistive technology provided to them
in school, or the right to access certain like housing
or what like all of these ways that section five
or four has been used since nineteen seventy seven, and
so I think that's the thing I really want people
to watch out for, is that you're not understanding a
population like even if you don't agree with sex work.
(24:42):
I'm going to use that because it's the one that
makes people the most activated. Even if you don't agree
morally with sex work, you have to understand that the
way that we address the population that does sex work
has rippling effect to our rights and can dismantle our
rights in an attempt to what like, punish someone because
(25:06):
they the way that they access like some sort of
financial gain or like the money they need to pay
their bills is far different than what we're willing to do.
I don't know, Like, what do you like? I guess
the question I would ask anyone is what are you
on you, on your physical self or in your life
(25:27):
willing to give up to punish someone else? And most
people's answer is nothing, Right, would you give up like
three of your fingers to be able to punish a
trans person? No? And when you make it clear like that,
I think then people sort of get it. But in
it when it's when it's sort of wrapped in the
(25:48):
sort of strange enigma of policy and legislation and lawsuits
and case law, a lot of people are more than
comfortable to sacrifice the good portion of themselves.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Right right, all in the name of whatever their morality,
which is a whole different conversation. I find it interesting,
and this is just a sidebar because I've been noticing
(26:21):
as on a blue sky, people going back and forth
and being in this conversation being like, no, this is
not an accident and just trying to get like trying
to punish trans people. This is purposeful in wrapping everybody
together in order to have the supremacist idea, and people
are not realizing it and try and getting too much
credit to the opposition and saying that.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
They made a mistake.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
No, they did this on purpose, and we need to
be very vigilant about the fact that this has always
been a part of the plan. And when it comes
to white supremacy, it is about eugenics. They really think
that there is this perfect setup, which is hilarious in
itself because you're like, your narcissism is showing, and that's
the diagnosis.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Just so you know, we're not experiencing a perfect world
with you in charge.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Right right right, We are falling apart, and I don't
know what to do and I cry a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I'm just kidding, Uh, I'm not kidding.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
But so here in the State of Georgia, I'm sure
you've been aware. We've watched the government not only ignore
the health officials and people about reproductive care and the rights,
but literally have dismantled almost any accountability and data by
just disbanding things like the maternal mortality boards and counsels
(27:40):
because they are telling too much truth and they did
not like it. So for us in here in the trenches,
such as in the state of Georgia, can you talk
to us about how to get the most accurate information
about tactics like this, like how we need to be
aware that this is one of the bigger ways that
they have used against us who are trying to get
(28:01):
reproductive access.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
Well, I think the first thing is, first of all,
you have some really I mean consummate experts. The first
thing I want to tell people is that when you're
elected officials who are not experts in these things, they
are not career professionals. Right, I like to tell people
all the time. You know that I've worked in government
and like, but I've never been a politician. And that's
(28:24):
on purpose, because I want to be a civil servant
to I want to care for my fellow the folks
that I live in and around. So The first thing
I would say to folks in Georgia is that, like,
you have consummate experts in Fulton County. I mean, I've
worked with their population and there, and they do all
that they can to do the best work within the
(28:47):
confines and the messy confines of the ever chaotic policy
that people who want to politicize these things create. So
I think the first thing is encouraging people to have
we sort of throw the baby out with the bathwater, right,
and we're like, Okay, the state of Georgia and it's
(29:09):
elected officials have made all of these designs and horrible
choices and appointed these terrible leaders or whoever. But we
then extend that hatred to anyone who works in these capacities.
And a substantial portion of the people that work for
you in government work for you. They they really do
(29:30):
want to do the best that they can, even in
these conditions. And so I think being able to be
more precise with our hatreds is the first suggestion I have.
Because I'm an a one hater when it comes to
a lot of politicians, you know, if they have zero haters,
(29:50):
that's not true. Because even in debt, I plan to
haunt them. But so, yeah, I think because I see
that a lot on TikTok as people be come very
like generalizing. They're like, oh, all of pharma is bad,
all of the federal government is bad. And it's like, no,
there are a number of bioengineers who really want to
(30:11):
cure cancer working in pharma. They're not setting the pricing,
they're not jacking up, you know, the cost of like
obscure random you know, medications that are that they've you know,
put a patent on, like they're not doing that. Get
with the c suite, you know, and we need people
(30:34):
who want to make medications to cure cancer. We need them,
so trust. How to be decisive with our hate, with
our hateration in the dancery is probably my number one.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I wait, I need to note that how to be
precise with oteration in the dancery.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yeah, I need to write that down somewhere.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
I don't want to tell people stout being haters. I
want you to. I want you to do this still
and full gets your hatred right, and then to also
know who's working on behalf of you, who really is
and how you how they are, how they're trying to
work within that. The other thing I would say is
that there are plenty again of like grassroots and larger
scale organizations that are collecting this information. So like I
(31:17):
know in Philadelphia we have like Pew Trust with there's
like the Kaiser Family Foundation, Like these are organizations that
their whole business or the whole work that they do
is still to produce this well researched like reports on
the conditions of these things. And so you may have
a look, I don't know specifically for Georgia, but you
(31:39):
may have and I would assume you do a like
a reproductive justice organization that is collecting that data in
some way, shape or form to draft reporting that you
all can trust and consume and has peer review to
it and et cetera. And it also may then you
may have to also become a little renegade and know
(32:01):
where to ask for it. I will say this, maybe
they dismantled your maternal mortality like what was it your
maternal mortality board, But that doesn't mean that your local
health departments aren't doing annual reporting. It just made it
means that you have to read like your mortality like
(32:23):
what do we call them here in Philly? Or in
Pennsylvania we call it like we have like a like
a report and annual report on deaths and cause of
death is still going to be in there, so it
may take more. Again, I hate these suggestions always kind
(32:44):
of suck because I know that our attention spans are shorter,
and so if something's not being handed to us directly,
us having to go on a little bit of a
hunt is harder for people. But it's going to be
so important that we start to stretch our attention spans
and be come a little more hunter gatherer unfortunately. But
it's there. That's the thing that's important. It's there.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah, And I think that's a great reminder I do
forget that we sometimes I forget when I look at
the big picture about all of the tragic things that
are happening, and all are the horrifying things that the
local people are doing a lot. We definitely have a
friend of the show, part Canaan, who has been working
so hard in the state of Georgia trying to get
some of these information out. And I know there are
(33:27):
local organizations like ARC Southeast here here in Georgia, but
it's sometimes like ah, so the focus, So thank you
for reminding me about that that local is so important,
like we do. We have talked about that quite a bit,
but sometimes it's hard to focus.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
And fund them too. That's the other thing is these
organizations because they're not getting federal grants, are because they've
given up you know, state grants or whatever. Because they're
continuing to do this sort of reporting means that they
now are doing it with a less And so I
also want to encourage people to fund these local organizations
that are doing this work for you on the ground,
(34:02):
like in where you are and where you live.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
No, that's that's definitely a definite because we need these organizations.
And with kind of all of this again, recently watching
a few of your episodes, you talked about social autopsy
and I love that phrasing, and I was like, oh, oh, okay,
can you because like the example you gave was people
manipulating content in order to cancel someone, So can you
(34:27):
kind of talk about what you mean about social autopsy?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
And I know it's an actual actual term, but new
to me.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
So social autopsy is one of my favorite qualitative methodologies.
You don't hear it so much. It was coined by
I forget the name of the researchers a sociologist. But
you see it in My favorite example is the book Heat,
which is a social autopsy, and that's I think the
first time you see that word used in a larger scale.
But it was about the Chicago heat wave that had
(34:57):
really detrimental It's a public health book detrimental effects. And
so social autopsy is when you see something has happened
and you decide that you are going to sort of
unpack what happened and go back in time looking at
the pieces that came together for this thing to happen.
I'm sure there's language for it. I think in the
political realm there's a similar term. I think they use
(35:18):
autopsy too, to look at like when there's like a
when you've lost a like an election, for example, you
look back and say, like, where did we go wrong?
What components were in place right? Because there's so many
moving parts that contributed to the perfect storm of this moment.
And so I encourage people to do a social autopsy
(35:38):
on things when before being before being like influenced and
the example, I know that the video you're talking about
because it was a viral one, and to also point
out that like people are not happy with me. People
really want to personalize when I do things like that,
when I contextualize the timeline, and again, like I'm not
(36:00):
pointing out and I think I say it several times,
I'm not pointing out whether or I think this person's
a good or bad person. I don't live in the
world the dichotomist world of good or bad. But I
want people to be careful when they make content, and
I want people to be careful when they consume it.
And so backtracking, so when you come across a video
where someone's like clip someone's this is very, very infamous.
I see this all the time when it comes to creators,
(36:22):
where people clip a certain piece of a video and
they clip it and they don't contextualize it, and they
don't tag the creator, or they leave out the watermark
so that you can go and look at it for yourself,
and they know that most people won't. I've had this
happen to me too as well, which you know, like
(36:44):
it's been absurd. But I want to encourage people to
not just take people at the clip, go and consume
the entire video, because in this podcast, for example, in
this exact moment, I could say, you know, well, everybody sucks,
and if you only clipped everybody sucks, then you would
(37:06):
be like Evan's anti humanist.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I agree, though, advice if you.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
Put it, if you put it in context and realize
it was an example statement that I made, then you
realize that it's not that I'm anti humanist. Again. I
want to encourage people. I know it's so easy to do,
especially when we're on social media or when we're consuming
media which is just endless scrolling, and we're sort of
doing it to be a little mindless. I want to
(37:35):
encourage people to stop and say, like, okay, well, if
this is catching my eye, I should take that extra
step and like search up the original video or click
on the original video and watch it end to end
and come to my own conclusions. Because there's a reason
why someone has clipped somebody the way they have, and
I think that's it can be really cool. It can
be accidental. I don't know. I'm not going to impose that.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
But yeah, yeah, that's and there's a lot and to
take the time to actually take an autopsy, as is implied,
is a whole other manner.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Well, it's all there. I think That's the other thing too,
is using all the tools that are there, Like, is
this something someone said in response to this? I see
this all. I see this often too when people are
like a number of creators recently have been complaining about
this where people have been chastising them for things they
did not do, and it's because people didn't look at
things like timestamps. One of the things that's really important
(38:29):
to think about with like Instagram and TikTok, and it's
very very popular now, is that your FYP, your newsfeed,
whatever it's called, is asynchronous, which means that if you're
scrolling and you've come across a video where a creator
is crying and saying, oh, someone's you know, I've been
someone's been talking mean about me and they you know,
(38:51):
they've they doxed me and and have been critiquing how
I painted my living room walls. And then you scroll
for a little while and you come across another creator
who is talking about like, oh, you know, I had
to hold somebody account all the other day and it
was really difficult, but you know it was important to
(39:13):
like connect and like and they're talking in it. Those
videos aren't necessarily connected to each other but we can
make a lot of assumptions based on thinking that those
people have a relationship, based on thinking that those one
person's talking about the other because one video followed the other,
and that's not true. The other thing that's really tricky
(39:33):
on TikTok is that little like suggested search bar, And
it's so strange because it'll suggest things that are really
unrelated to the content, but you then think it is.
So it'll be like, you know, a man killed by
elephant and you're like, wait a minute, is this video
about a man that was killed by an elephant? And
you're like, So, to not be spoon fed things, but
(39:55):
to actually be proactive. Look at timestamps on videos, look
at the way someone's dressed. You can usually tell if
a creator made a bundle of videos and then you know,
release them over a course of several hours or days.
Look at all of those things before you hop to
a judgment or relate things to each other.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Good advice And then, of course, also you've done a
series about trusted resources, can you give us a quick
rundown on how to vet for a good trusted resource?
Speaker 4 (40:30):
Online is now it's getting more and more difficult. I
always like to encourage people to first start with looking
for open access journal articles or research and reports. And
the reason why it's not because I think that those
entities are like smarter than everybody else whatever. It's because
(40:51):
the process is arduous to get something published in like
Gamma or like you know, the Disabilities Core literally or
any of these journals these like med or their stem
style journals, or even on like a website like NASUM,
which is like the National something Science Education and Medicine.
(41:15):
These entities have a high standard for peer review. Does
this mean everything? Does you know? Some stuff gets by?
And that's there's all sorts of reasons why nepotism can
be one, cronyism can be one, but a high standard
of peer review. The next thing I will say is
that if you cannot find an open access article from
(41:37):
a reputable journal, to also look at citations that people
have used. So I even say this with books because
people don't realize that. You're like, I see people do
this all the time and they're like, oh, I learned
it in a book, and I'm like, yeah, well, books
are edited, but they're not peer reviewed and it and
that's really hard to say because there are some books
(41:59):
I love, but they are biased. They're they're designed with bias.
And so when you're reading a book that was a
research project, because oftentimes people will turn their research into
a book, I see that with I think it's Catherine
Eden's Living on two dollars a day is a good example.
She makes turns her ethnography, which is a research project,
(42:20):
into a book. But she also cite has citations in
her bibliography. Right, So explore the citations, because that's going
to tell you a whole lot of how reputable something
is is did they cite their work correctly? And who
did they cite? If they started to cite a bunch
of gobbledegook, you know, then yeah, that's that starts to
give you a hint. I see this a lot on
(42:42):
like pseudo intellectual or pseudoscientific materials and disinformation websites. They'll
have citations, and their citations are actually cyclical or circular,
so they'll cite themselves a lot, they'll cite other people
that have cited them, so often do a lot of
back and forth citation that mimics scientific research, but it's
(43:06):
not real. And then the other thing I will say
is that you know, if you can look for things
that are posted to reputable institutions, so universities is always
a really good one. Universities love to post sourcing. You
can always check with your local library, librarians or I
don't know why we've lost the love of librarians, but
(43:26):
librarians are actually really great sources to ask because they're
taught library science, so they're taught to identify effective and
ineffective sourcing. And a lot of people don't realize this
is that if there is a resource that you that's
behind a paywall, you can request it from your local
library and they can access it for free for you.
(43:47):
So if there's like a research like paper that you
want to get a hold of, your local librarian can
get it for you and you can request it. There's
no cost to you, and I think there might be
a printing cost if you want it printed. I don't
know with each library, but yeah, library like library science.
We have to lean into your librarians. They are Please
(44:08):
let's in twenty twenty five, let's rediscover the magic of librarians.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Thanks coming back around. I think it's trending because we
love some libraries right here.
Speaker 4 (44:16):
We love and library scientists you.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Know, they have awful masters of them. What they have
to go through isn't tend.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
If there's anybody who knows citation, it is them, like ask.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Them go to research advice. That's why you're here.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Oh, that's awesome.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
We do love libraries.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
We're here.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
We love libraries. So you already gave us some examples.
But going off that question, who are some people that
you would recommend for us and our listeners to follow
(44:59):
or seek out?
Speaker 4 (45:00):
Well, it is Black History Month and I am a bioethicist,
so I would be remiss if I didn't shout out
some amazing great bioethicis and people who do work that
I like to say is bioethical in theory. Right, some
of them are sociologists, but that's okay. We all hang out.
We're all girls. You know. Some of my favorite is
(45:21):
doctor Keisherat. Doctor Kisherre is a bioethicis. She is the
person who's coined the concept black bioethics. She wrote I
think her book is called Black Bioethics, The Black Bioethics
Reader or something like that. The amazing thing about doctor
Keisherret's work, anything that she's published, is actually published at
a very accessible reading level. So her the book that
(45:45):
she has about Black bioethics is written at like a
sixth grade reading level. It's very consumable and you can
learn very easily, and it's very interesting. She's also the
editor for the blog Bioethics Today, so I also want
to encourage people to explore Bioeths Today if you're curious
about bioethics. There's all sorts of bioethicists talking about all
sorts of things in that blog. It's so fascinating. I
(46:07):
love reading it. I have some of my favorites up there.
I've also written for them on occasion, shameless plug. The
other one is, of course Dorothy Roberts. Doctor Dorothy Roberts
is a sociologist but also a bioethicist, and she's written
Killing the Black Body, and she talks a lot about
(46:29):
maternal mortality and black maternal health. She is like one
of the chairs here and you Penn in Philadelphia, so
very very close. Very one day I'll cross her path.
One day I'll be important enough to know her. Harriet Washington.
A lot of people know Harriet Washington's work because she
wrote Medical Apartheid, which sort of put Black bioethics conceptually
(46:53):
on the map because it was such a best selling
book and so many people cite it in like African
American history. But she also does an amazing series of
writing on things like consent, and so I want to
encourage people to write her up to read her other books.
And she also has a book about environmental health and
(47:14):
Black Black disparities in health. So she's really great to
explore beyond medical apartheid, which you should read. And then
the last one I want to mention is Ruha Benjamin.
And the last two is rue Benjamin is a really
great sociologist who talks a lot about inequality in tech.
(47:36):
She talks a lot about things like algorithms and bias,
race based tech and science. She talks a lot about
she I think she's been more exploring more things like
AI and the disparity of AI and things like labor
and labor disparities and labor oppression. And then there's a
Landra Nelson. And the reason why I bring up a
(47:58):
Landa Nelson is because I feel like I her all
the time. In February, because she wrote the entire book
Body and Soul about the Black Panthers health justice work,
and she just I mean end to end. The amount
of work that the Black Panthers endeavored in health justice
is not talked about enough, and it makes me so
ill because it's like their consummate, like magnum opus work.
(48:22):
And we just constantly bring up the fact that they
like marched around in like black beerys and like guns,
which is fine, like that, you know, militancy is you know,
this is not a judgment on that. But the longer
standing work has been their work in health justice. Some
of the clinics that they set up in the nineteen
seventies are still operating today and they are the reason
(48:45):
why we have some of the more systemic public health
designs around things like testing for sickle cell or doing
lead testing in homes. They design those systems and the
US government federally adopted those designs later on. So Laundry
Nelson's book, she is a a sociologist as well. She
put it all together at the history of the Black
(49:06):
Panthers in Health Justice. So explore her work for sure.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Trying to get all this new.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
You see me like pulling up the names, like yep,
got get that book, Gotta get this book, and gotta
get this one making us but.
Speaker 4 (49:22):
It gets good.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
And you know what, with all of this, I again
I told you at the very beginning, I'm so impressed
by the fact that you come in in these really
deep and hard conversations and do it with such eloquence.
But not only but like calm. The calm is what
I'm most impressed by. I honestly like you do it
as an educator. I'm sure you're like, yeah, this is
(49:49):
what we do. Uh. When I read things like this
and it feels like injustice, I go on a rampage
post coursing, maybe my face turning red. And you do
it in such a way that's so educational. So it's approachable,
in a way that even though it takes me a
few few listens to really grasp it, it makes me
want to learn more. But with that, I know it
(50:11):
has to be stressful. I know this work is stressful.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
I know this timing is really really, really stressful.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
So with all of that, we always have to ask,
what do you do when you need to take a break.
What is your Uh I'm not gonna say necessarily like
self care, but.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
What how do you detox when you do that?
Speaker 4 (50:30):
I I'm a lover and a traveler usually, but when
I can't afford that's high brow stuff, you know. But
when I'm really trying to, like you said, detox and
relax out, I really am a huge lover of graphic novels.
I love reading graphic novels. I love independent pressings I have.
(50:54):
I love the illustrations. I love all sorts of like
sci fi based one. I mean, there's this so much.
The graphic novel world is so fascinating because growing up
is like a little black queer like a fab nerd.
One of the first places I could see myself like
reflected as like an interesting character was actually in comic
books and in and maybe not specifically in all those ways.
(51:19):
But the first time I saw queer people as like
interesting dynamic, not just villains and like coded villains, was
like in comic books, especially independent ones, and it's only
gotten better since then. I would say that a lot
of the comic book world, weirdly enough, is like twenty
years ahead of us when it comes to like perception
(51:41):
and how we display certain groups. That's not to say
that there's not comic book artists and writers who are
like absolute jerks, but you can find your story, and
I could. I could find my story pretty early on
in comic books, and I just never stopped loving any
exploring them. So they usually when I'm like done with
(52:03):
the day, I like to go through my very extensive
and embarrassingly like organized graphic novel and comic book collection
and like reread things. And then I also sometimes like
to read things that are more amorphic or like more
like I love culture. I love learning about different groups
(52:25):
and populations and history and so like right now, I'm
currently reading a book about heaven and Hell and the
way that heaven and hell have been imagined across the world,
and it says a lot about the human condition for
how we imagine heaven and hell or paradise and purgatory,
(52:45):
and it's been very fascinating. Pretty quickly, you.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Fit into our world, Annie's I'm like over here chopping
at the book because we love a good comic graphic
novel it I love it.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
We do. And Samantha knows a lot about religions, so fits.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Like I said, month every week, come on the way that.
Speaker 4 (53:05):
We could sit here and talk about what I just
learned about, which was infernal cartography.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
Please please okay, no, we don't have time stop why
so that means we get to have.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yes, you should definitely come back. We would oh gosh.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
I wouldn't talk about every.
Speaker 4 (53:28):
Day every day.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Yeah, we'll negotiate it later later, But in the meantime,
where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 4 (53:40):
They can find me on TikTok I am Evan the bioethicist.
E v n the bioethicist on TikTok I come up
right away if you google bioethics. I think I'm the
only person that uses that hashtag sadness. And then the
other place that I've recently started to build up is
a Patreon. There is a free side of it, like
a free membership. I don't like paid barriers. There is
(54:01):
a five dollars supporter membership that people can get into
if they want to get like longer form more like
curated content that I'm working on now. It's not up
there yet, but I'm working on now, but it will
be behind that five dollars a month little minimum paywall,
and that's mainly to pay for trying to produce like
(54:22):
higher quality more than me just talking at my phone content.
If people aren't into TikTok I just repost the tiktoks
to the free membership section of Patreon. A lot of
people like that better because sometimes people don't like you know,
TikTok's a blessing and a curse, and when things go viral,
you can end up with a lot of really terrible
(54:42):
vibes in the comments section and what have you. So
a lot of my softer hearted I want to say,
followers who want less of that static noise that TikTok
can produce, like to go to Patreon and interact with
Patreon instead, because those are people who are intentionally there,
you know, So find either one. I'm the same on
(55:02):
both platforms.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
Oh yes, I'm going to check that out. Listeners, you
should check it out as well. Thank you so much
Evan for joining us today. It's been in delight and yes,
come back, come back anytime.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
I love it. I'm interested. We could talk about the
non bioethics or professional things too. I'm into it. But
thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
Yes, we'll just have an Evan corner like where you
come in at every so often a lot actually, I
love it.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
But Listeners. In the meantime, if you would like to
contact us, you can you can email us at Hello
at stuff onever told you dot com. You can find
us on Blue Sky at most of a Podcast, or
on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never told you.
We're us on YouTube, We have a tea public store,
and we have book you can get wherever you get
your books. Thanks as always to our super producer, contenior
executive producer Maya and our contributor Joey.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff I
Never told you.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
Use production to by Heart Radio. For more podcast with
my Heart Radio, you can check out the art Radio app,
Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Ye
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Stefan never told your production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
And today we are having what I would call a
wonderful fantasy crossover for me, specifically because my TikTok world
is coming onto the Sminty world. That is correct, and
I'm so excited because we have a bioethicist and expert
in the field of public health.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And Okay, first of all, that's just one of.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
The mini hats that they wear, so I'm just gonna
leave it at that, but I'm so excited. Evan, Welcome
to s Minty, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Can you introduce yourself to our listeners.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
I can. My name is Evan and I am I
go by Evan the bioethicist on TikTok. I work in
public health, but I also have a background in all
things related to misinformation, disinformation, and conspiracy theories as they
affect public health. And this includes things like biotechnology, AI
and media so much.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
And you just did like a very succinct introduction because
as I was like looking you up, because I know
you from TikTok, the discovery of TikTok, because the listeners
know I'm obsessed. But when I was reading through the
articles that you have the like the education, your background,
your career filed, I'm like, my gosh, I think we
(01:34):
need well you were talking about want to expand. I
think you need a podcast and if you want to
come on to ours more often.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
I don't know anything about the podcasting world. People have
said I need a podcast. I don't know what that entails.
I am open to learning, though, Hey.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I love that you're stepping in with us, because I
do feel like, again, this is one of those moments
where I fan girl a little too much because I'm like,
I've seen them so often on my feed and they
tell me great information. Now they're here and I'm just
gonna pick their brains. Which I've already warned you. It
was like, be ready questions.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
I'm open for it. I'm available good.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Like I said, I'm so excited to talk about your
work and your experiences and just your overall expertise because
there's a lot going on in the world.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
A lot.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yes, that is true, Yes, it definitely is.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
A lot of people have told me that my research,
which I finished school about two years ago now, was
very precin and I'm like, you know, yeah, I didn't
realize how much, so but.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
You know, yeah, well here you are. Can you for
those of us that might not know, can you give
us a brief explanation of what a bioethicist is and does?
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Absolutely? I know when you know your listeners and my mom,
I tell you right, So, a bioethicist. There's this thing
called medical humanities, and in the science there's like the
science humanities, and so it's essentially those are folks who
are who do the like social science part of like
(03:17):
hard sciences. I don't really love calling things hard and
soft sciences, but you know, so, a bioethicist is someone
who has a background in training in things like decision
making policy. We learn about qualitative methodology when it comes
to research. We talk a lot about things like consent
when it comes to research subjects. So we talk a
(03:40):
lot about ethical design and principles That can range from
everything from like transplantation ethics and policy to clinical bioethics,
which is helping people decide things around like religion, beliefs,
like people want to be I have a DNR DNI.
There's like so much to it and every bioethicist is
(04:01):
very different. A lot of bioethicists combine their bioethics training
with like a medical degree, like being an MD or
being a JD. So you'll see a lot of bioethicists
who cause play as lawyers and doctors. But we're many things,
which is why you don't hear about them as often
because oftentimes, you know, people know what a lawyer is,
(04:23):
people know what a physician or a doctor is, and
so they don't really know that the person that they
know who's a lawyer or a doctor is is a
bioethicist or practices bioethics rather than is practicing medicine or law.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That makes sense, thank you, because I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
It wasn't until I again stumbled on your page that
I was like, what what is this? Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
That makes sense? Like it makes sense when you.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Hear it after the fact, you're like, yeah, that's necessary.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I like this.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
And to be fair, we've only started to endeavor bioethicists
as a standalone profession, and having started to endeavor bioethics
in public health, it's not super super common that someone
is like, I'm just a bioethicis like that is my training. Fully,
that is what I'm interested in, and I work in
public health and those things are super rare. Now they're growing,
(05:12):
They're ever growing, and there's more and more of us
every year.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
But.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Newer.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So what made you choose this work exactly?
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Originally, historically in undergrad I had been pre med and
then somebody told me that I had to do rotations
where I had to treat patients. And I never wanted
to do that. I know that sounds kooky, but I
had always wanted to have the training in medicine. I
never wanted to treat people. I had thought I would
go into things like forensics, and then I realized I
(05:43):
actually really like the more expansive or like population health
based work that comes with public health. But I still
love the medical humanities. I still love talking to people
about like what does it mean to like think about
zeno transplantation, or like I love telling people. I love
telling people about how important horseshoe crabs are to protecting
(06:04):
us from having unsterile like medications, especially cancer medications which
are injectables. Like that fuels me these like sort of weird,
quirky facts. But an also like the complexity that comes
with like thought and decision making. A lot of people
don't think about how does policy happen, how do decisions happen?
(06:26):
What influences medicine? And I love talking about those things.
I love learning about them. I've been recently, I know
if Samantha, since you watched my TikTok, you know how
much I've been delving into like disgusted as like a
philosophic concept.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So yeah, I'm not gonna lie. That one went over
my head.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
I had to sit there and like, as you were
talking about these series, I had to go back and
I was.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Like, wait, what huh?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Because that in itself as a question didn't doesn't rise
in my head.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Does that make sense? I was like, oh, huh huh.
So there's so.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Many Okay, obviously again with a fangirl is like, there
are so many moments where I've had to take your
video which is a little longer than your typical like
ten second or fifteen second run up, because you give
so much information that I have to go back and
listen to a few times, and each time I feel
like I'm catching onto something different in a lesson. So
it does feel like I'm getting a good school learning
(07:22):
when I'm listening to your stuff. But again, like it
rises to new questions that I'm like, I haven't even
thought of that one.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
And that's the idea. I mean. When I originally started
to endeavor to create my page and really curate it
with information, I was thinking critically around, like, how can
this be an educational tool? How can people use this?
Can people revisit what I've said? And so I love
that people say that they come back and watch a
video over over, because yeah, a lot of these things
(07:50):
are not things you're going to like consume once and
be like, oh, I got it, Like that's good. I like,
but reflection is part of it, right, Like that's like you.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Know yeah, yeah, I mean it's obviously if you're an
expert in something, it makes sense that somebody in one
video watch would be like, yes, understood. So with everything
that we've alluded to that it is happening today, especially
in the US perhaps, and as you mentioned, you have
(08:19):
expertise in combating misinformation and disinformation when it comes to
public health. That seems like a really huge task. Can
you tell us what this type of work actually looks like.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
It looks like a lot of things, but one of
the primary things I like to point out for people
is that a lot of people think this is like
a newer thing, and especially in medicine and health, misinformation
and disinformation and conspiracy theories have always existed. I mean,
I could go all the way back to the first
like organized invention of like vaccination with cowpox, right, which
(08:56):
we were injecting people with a live virus to protect
against smallpox. And there was a number of newspapers that
put out like, you know, sort of tongue in cheek
cartoons of people turning into cows, right, and that influenced
people into thinking or trying or avoiding vaccination because they
were afraid they would be turned into a cow. So
(09:18):
the first thing is to know the history of it,
and the second thing is to also know the difference
between misinformation and disinformation. A lot of people use those interchangeably,
and they're not the same. Misinformation is just somebody really
not understanding the science of medicine. Any one of us
has been guilty of creating it. You know, if you've
ever been to the doctor and they told you, you know,
like some big fancy word that you did not recognize,
(09:41):
like gastroparesis, and you came home and you were like,
I have gastro parents, and I don't know what that means.
You've inadvertently created misinformation. Doctors, public health experts, all of
those were always dealing with having to sort of be corrective.
And it's not malicious, it's just people who aren't trained
(10:03):
in science won't get everything. But disinformation is an intentional
creation of information that is wrong, and it usually has
monetary value. There's usually something that someone can get out
of creating disinformation, and there's a way that they can
monetize that, either the platform or they can drive people
(10:26):
to purchase something. There's all different ways that they do it.
And then they also target particular populations, so they have
a design. It has a science and a design to it,
and a distribution tacked and technique. So those are the
things that I think are like the most pressing in
my mind when it comes to the like at the
very if we're going to start to unravel it.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, and we are big over here in making sure
we understand the conversation when it comes to misinformation and disinformation.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So thank you for clarifying that.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Also, you do talk about the fact that misinformation can
happen even with people with good intentions.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I know.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
I think I've probably been guilty of this as well,
because you hear something that's very hyperbolic and you take
it literal because I'm a very literal person. So you
can't tell me something and then not clarify immediately because
I'll be like, what so when we do that, what
is something that you think we should how we should
handle our own giving misinformation.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
I always want to encourage people, especially people with a
media platform of some sort, to really check the information
and the facts that they're sharing, and also to look
at what facts do I need to share or not
need to share, or what's the context I'm providing. The
best example I can give is I know plenty of
people on TikTok and other places that really want to
(11:47):
keep people informed about bird flu. The issue is is
that they're not contextualizing bird flu by talking about the
number of deaths or the number of people infected so far,
the point of transmission. These are very important heat of
components to leave out. And then also if you're really
worried about something like communicable disease, to be making video
(12:09):
after video after a video about bird flu, but not
making a video being really informative around the actual seasonal flu,
which we have an incredible amount of hospitalizations, a record
number of hospitalizations this year when it comes to seasonal flu,
and I just sort of think it's really misleading. I
understand why people want to be informative about bird flu
(12:30):
because there's a lot of unknowns, But if you're not
an expert in public health and don't understand who's tracking it,
and don't understand what the threat level is from the
perspective of someone working in public health, then you can
really kind of be distracting more than you can be informative.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Oh oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
With that, With the fact that the US pulling out
of you know who, and the recent firings of so
many people from the public health and the CDC, a
lot of people are really concerned about not getting correct
or accurate information. What is some advice you would give
us lay people who has to watch your videos five
(13:18):
times to understand what's going on in trying to find
the most accurate and up to date health information.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
I always like to remind people that they do live
in a multi layered governance space, and so you can
when it First of all, the way that it works
when it comes to tracking disease for the CDC is
the CDC works on a like a reporting up model,
And so what often happens for people or the process
is that local so like municipal and state entities usually
(13:48):
report up to the CDC, and the CDC gathers those
numbers and then looks at trends and then does outward
reporting nationally. Right, So the good news is is that
the things that are being reported or tracked depending on
where you live. Now, the caveat I will say here
is that not all municipalities are treated equal. But depending
on where you live, your local health department is just
(14:11):
as in the know as the CDC, if not more so,
because they're doing the reporting up for the CDC to
like an EIS officer or other folks. So I would
encourage people to actually be more exploratory with their local
again like city health department or their county health department
or their state health department. For folks who feel like
(14:34):
they can't trust those entities either, and I understand why,
I would also look to nonpartisan organizations. I've pointed out
places like the APHA CSTE, which is like the Council
of State and Territorial Epidemiologists. Those are some organizations I
think off the top, there's an organization called NASDAD that
(14:57):
focuses mainly on HIV and STIs. So these organizations are
non partisan, but also they are private entities. They do
government contracting, so they have a lot of good relationships
with state, municipal and federal public health experts. But you
can also sign up for the WHO newsletter use an
(15:18):
individual can interface with WHO yourself. A lot of people
don't realize that they can do that.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah again, TikTok novel. Well I'm so, I'm so one TikTok.
I gotta stop.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
But newsletters always kind of for new I always want
to encourage people to sign up for newsletters when it
comes to public health and informing yourself.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
That's such a great idea.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
I forget about newsletters like this is in the age
of social media, and even though I grew up in
the age of newsletters and actual newspapers, I still kind
of forget.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I'm like, oh, yeah, that does exist.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Look at this.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I think there's a lot in this conversation. You again,
I want to talk about some of the series that
you've done because you do a great job. And talking
about health and policy, you're doing a great job. And
talking about black history. You just talked about disability and
the Black Panthers and all like what so much, so
much great information. So listeners, if you don't, if you haven't,
(16:14):
you need to go walk in. But I do want
to kind of get it in some of the negativity,
and we're going to come to positive too, but just
because you know, we do the bad news version and
the good news. So historically and today, society and governments
for the most part have ignored or erased women and
marginalized people when it comes to public health, illness, sicknesses,
and safety in general. What are some things you've seen
(16:37):
during your career or even in your studies that are
concerning in this area.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
The thing that concerns me the most is actually stigma.
Stigma for certain populations and stigma for certain public health conditions.
So the two that I would give as examples is.
The first stigma I would give is around like sex workers.
I think there's a huge amount I mean no, I
don't think I know that there's a huge man stigma
around that being the way that people engage in their
(17:05):
like you know, commerce exchange. I do like to remind
everyone that all of us who do labor are exchanging
our labor and our bodies for money. We're just not
exchanging a particular kind of labor for money. But the
stigma that really ensnares and in circles sex workers is
really insidious because we a lot of us buy into it.
(17:26):
A lot of us are very paternalistic, and so the
way that we talk about public health and sex workers
still sort of demands controlling people's bodies or imperiling the
way that people make money to pay their bills that
they may be comfortable with and they are consenting to
and they like doing. It's very easy to have a
(17:47):
conversation with people around sex work and people not wanting
to do it. It's very uncomfortable to have a conversation
with people around sex work, and how do we protect
folks who do want to be doing that work, how
do we interface with them in a way that's just
like morally benign. We want to really moralize these things
(18:07):
when we talk about stigma. And then the other one
is like things like STIs, particularly STIs that are very
easy to transmit and transenda and end up with Like
so things like chlamydia, for example, it's a very treatable STI.
It's very easy to transmit if you've had sexual contact
with someone. But we've still really highly stigmatized someone who
(18:31):
has a history of having caught or transmitted chlamydia. We
don't have the same stigmatization for things like the common cold,
we don't have the same We don't stigmatize someone who's
given us COVID even though they've you know, done some
real serious harm. But it's because we know the transmission
point that we've really stigmatized sti's and that leads into
(18:53):
other things too, like more chronic conditions like herpes and HIV.
When we stigmatize things, it means it's hard to treat
or care for them. I would love to see in
public health we get to a point where we ask
people about the work that they do, and someone can
reveal that they do sex work and it has no
moral bearings on how they're treated. And I would really
(19:13):
love to see at a day and age where somebody
can go into clinical space and talk about their past
history or their current experience with a chronic STI or
a chronic disease that they acquired through sexual transmission, and
it also be morally benign, and we treat it the
same way we treat someone living with chronic cancer or
(19:36):
someone with You know that they need a certain kind
of care, but it doesn't have bearing on how they're
going to be treated. I think that's what's Those are
the things that are super concerning and in the current
politicized the thing that really concerns me overall is how
we politicize public health, and especially how we politicize marginalized
(19:57):
folks or vulnerable populations. On top of that, right, and
the neglect of things like people with disability and the
weaponization of things like the weaponization of like anti trans
rhetoric to try and tear down Section five oh four,
for example, which is for disabilities. It's a protection for
folks with disabilities. These things don't live in bubbles and isolation,
(20:19):
and a lot of these things where they all dump
out is public health.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, Well, coming to the positive, what are some of
the more encouraging things that you have seen.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
In public health? Yeah? Oh man, there's like so many.
I think that I love that you asked this because
I love talking about how amazing public health is first
of all, a lot of public health practitioners, a lot
of people have become more interested in public health as
a profession. I love that I've been seeing a lot
(20:55):
more mixed methodology and public health research, and this is
super important to talk about causation, especially around things like
racial disparities in public health. Historically, people have done research
in public health where they primarily researched disparities but didn't
sort of stopped there, and so we'd often hear like, oh,
(21:16):
you know, maternal health, like maternal mortality statistics are really
bad for black women, and they're you know, different for
this group and this group. But more and more researchers
have started to realize that if they're going to talk
about health disparities, especially racially, then they need to also
point out that the cause isn't race itself, like biologically
(21:38):
or inherently, it's racism in a system. And so that
requires less quantitative methodology and also qualitative methodology interviewing focused groups,
surveying on top of the quantitative work that you want
to be doing. So I'm really excited to see what
(22:00):
I think is going to be much more incisive and
insightful research from folks. And then the other thing too,
is like like biomedical breakthroughs, like the fact that you
can have you have injectibles. I mean recently it was
just like National HIV Day and we have injectables now
for HIV care. That means someone can come in once
(22:23):
every three months for an injectible and managed to maintain
ANNDIE an undetectable viral load. I mean that is such
a feat in a generation from back in the nineties
where people were having to take sort of fistfuls of
medication just to stay alive and the side effects were very,
(22:45):
very aggressive, painful and debilitating. So there's amazing work happening
in care and treatment that we're able to promote in
public health.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I love that. I feel like we need balances.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
We need to know the truth and dark, but we
need to know that things are happening whether or not
we see it. You know, you did bring up the
whole thing with the disability acts and what's going down
in public health, and I've seen more and more people
coming out like this is this is a whole conversation,
an abless conversation that's using trans people as a weapon
(23:21):
against this disabled people's and how it comes down to,
as you and I are having a conversation before about
eugenics and what this looks like in general, what are
some things that we need to be watching for as
they're having this big conversation about this.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
I think the weaponization of different vulnerable populations against other
groups is a big one, and not just like in
how we stigmatize certain groups, but in like the section
five h four is such a good example because it's
being weaponized in an attempt to be cruel to trans people,
(23:56):
we may inadvertently dismantle something that it has been an
incredible necessity for rights to access for a number of
number of things. Another of supports resources, et cetera for
folks with disabilities, and so our transphobia has a huge
cost and is going to be the right for someone
(24:20):
with a disability to have assistive technology provided to them
in school, or the right to access certain like housing
or what like all of these ways that section five
or four has been used since nineteen seventy seven, and
so I think that's the thing I really want people
to watch out for, is that you're not understanding a
population like even if you don't agree with sex work.
(24:42):
I'm going to use that because it's the one that
makes people the most activated. Even if you don't agree
morally with sex work, you have to understand that the
way that we address the population that does sex work
has rippling effect to our rights and can dismantle our
rights in an attempt to what like, punish someone because
(25:06):
they the way that they access like some sort of
financial gain or like the money they need to pay
their bills is far different than what we're willing to do.
I don't know, Like, what do you like? I guess
the question I would ask anyone is what are you
on you, on your physical self or in your life
(25:27):
willing to give up to punish someone else? And most
people's answer is nothing, Right, would you give up like
three of your fingers to be able to punish a
trans person? No? And when you make it clear like that,
I think then people sort of get it. But in
it when it's when it's sort of wrapped in the
(25:48):
sort of strange enigma of policy and legislation and lawsuits
and case law, a lot of people are more than
comfortable to sacrifice the good portion of themselves.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Right right, all in the name of whatever their morality,
which is a whole different conversation. I find it interesting,
and this is just a sidebar because I've been noticing
(26:21):
as on a blue sky, people going back and forth
and being in this conversation being like, no, this is
not an accident and just trying to get like trying
to punish trans people. This is purposeful in wrapping everybody
together in order to have the supremacist idea, and people
are not realizing it and try and getting too much
credit to the opposition and saying that.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
They made a mistake.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
No, they did this on purpose, and we need to
be very vigilant about the fact that this has always
been a part of the plan. And when it comes
to white supremacy, it is about eugenics. They really think
that there is this perfect setup, which is hilarious in
itself because you're like, your narcissism is showing, and that's
the diagnosis.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Just so you know, we're not experiencing a perfect world
with you in charge.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Right right right, We are falling apart, and I don't
know what to do and I cry a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I'm just kidding, Uh, I'm not kidding.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
But so here in the State of Georgia, I'm sure
you've been aware. We've watched the government not only ignore
the health officials and people about reproductive care and the rights,
but literally have dismantled almost any accountability and data by
just disbanding things like the maternal mortality boards and counsels
(27:40):
because they are telling too much truth and they did
not like it. So for us in here in the trenches,
such as in the state of Georgia, can you talk
to us about how to get the most accurate information
about tactics like this, like how we need to be
aware that this is one of the bigger ways that
they have used against us who are trying to get
(28:01):
reproductive access.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
Well, I think the first thing is, first of all,
you have some really I mean consummate experts. The first
thing I want to tell people is that when you're
elected officials who are not experts in these things, they
are not career professionals. Right, I like to tell people
all the time. You know that I've worked in government
and like, but I've never been a politician. And that's
(28:24):
on purpose, because I want to be a civil servant
to I want to care for my fellow the folks
that I live in and around. So The first thing
I would say to folks in Georgia is that, like,
you have consummate experts in Fulton County. I mean, I've
worked with their population and there, and they do all
that they can to do the best work within the
(28:47):
confines and the messy confines of the ever chaotic policy
that people who want to politicize these things create. So
I think the first thing is encouraging people to have
we sort of throw the baby out with the bathwater, right,
and we're like, Okay, the state of Georgia and it's
(29:09):
elected officials have made all of these designs and horrible
choices and appointed these terrible leaders or whoever. But we
then extend that hatred to anyone who works in these capacities.
And a substantial portion of the people that work for
you in government work for you. They they really do
(29:30):
want to do the best that they can, even in
these conditions. And so I think being able to be
more precise with our hatreds is the first suggestion I have.
Because I'm an a one hater when it comes to
a lot of politicians, you know, if they have zero haters,
(29:50):
that's not true. Because even in debt, I plan to
haunt them. But so, yeah, I think because I see
that a lot on TikTok as people be come very
like generalizing. They're like, oh, all of pharma is bad,
all of the federal government is bad. And it's like, no,
there are a number of bioengineers who really want to
(30:11):
cure cancer working in pharma. They're not setting the pricing,
they're not jacking up, you know, the cost of like
obscure random you know, medications that are that they've you know,
put a patent on, like they're not doing that. Get
with the c suite, you know, and we need people
(30:34):
who want to make medications to cure cancer. We need them,
so trust. How to be decisive with our hate, with
our hateration in the dancery is probably my number one.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I wait, I need to note that how to be
precise with oteration in the dancery.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yeah, I need to write that down somewhere.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
I don't want to tell people stout being haters. I
want you to. I want you to do this still
and full gets your hatred right, and then to also
know who's working on behalf of you, who really is
and how you how they are, how they're trying to
work within that. The other thing I would say is
that there are plenty again of like grassroots and larger
scale organizations that are collecting this information. So like I
(31:17):
know in Philadelphia we have like Pew Trust with there's
like the Kaiser Family Foundation, Like these are organizations that
their whole business or the whole work that they do
is still to produce this well researched like reports on
the conditions of these things. And so you may have
a look, I don't know specifically for Georgia, but you
(31:39):
may have and I would assume you do a like
a reproductive justice organization that is collecting that data in
some way, shape or form to draft reporting that you
all can trust and consume and has peer review to
it and et cetera. And it also may then you
may have to also become a little renegade and know
(32:01):
where to ask for it. I will say this, maybe
they dismantled your maternal mortality like what was it your
maternal mortality board, But that doesn't mean that your local
health departments aren't doing annual reporting. It just made it
means that you have to read like your mortality like
(32:23):
what do we call them here in Philly? Or in
Pennsylvania we call it like we have like a like
a report and annual report on deaths and cause of
death is still going to be in there, so it
may take more. Again, I hate these suggestions always kind
(32:44):
of suck because I know that our attention spans are shorter,
and so if something's not being handed to us directly,
us having to go on a little bit of a
hunt is harder for people. But it's going to be
so important that we start to stretch our attention spans
and be come a little more hunter gatherer unfortunately. But
it's there. That's the thing that's important. It's there.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah, And I think that's a great reminder I do
forget that we sometimes I forget when I look at
the big picture about all of the tragic things that
are happening, and all are the horrifying things that the
local people are doing a lot. We definitely have a
friend of the show, part Canaan, who has been working
so hard in the state of Georgia trying to get
some of these information out. And I know there are
(33:27):
local organizations like ARC Southeast here here in Georgia, but
it's sometimes like ah, so the focus, So thank you
for reminding me about that that local is so important,
like we do. We have talked about that quite a bit,
but sometimes it's hard to focus.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
And fund them too. That's the other thing is these
organizations because they're not getting federal grants, are because they've
given up you know, state grants or whatever. Because they're
continuing to do this sort of reporting means that they
now are doing it with a less And so I
also want to encourage people to fund these local organizations
that are doing this work for you on the ground,
(34:02):
like in where you are and where you live.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
No, that's that's definitely a definite because we need these organizations.
And with kind of all of this again, recently watching
a few of your episodes, you talked about social autopsy
and I love that phrasing, and I was like, oh, oh, okay,
can you because like the example you gave was people
manipulating content in order to cancel someone, So can you
(34:27):
kind of talk about what you mean about social autopsy?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
And I know it's an actual actual term, but new
to me.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
So social autopsy is one of my favorite qualitative methodologies.
You don't hear it so much. It was coined by
I forget the name of the researchers a sociologist. But
you see it in My favorite example is the book Heat,
which is a social autopsy, and that's I think the
first time you see that word used in a larger scale.
But it was about the Chicago heat wave that had
(34:57):
really detrimental It's a public health book detrimental effects. And
so social autopsy is when you see something has happened
and you decide that you are going to sort of
unpack what happened and go back in time looking at
the pieces that came together for this thing to happen.
I'm sure there's language for it. I think in the
political realm there's a similar term. I think they use
(35:18):
autopsy too, to look at like when there's like a
when you've lost a like an election, for example, you
look back and say, like, where did we go wrong?
What components were in place right? Because there's so many
moving parts that contributed to the perfect storm of this moment.
And so I encourage people to do a social autopsy
(35:38):
on things when before being before being like influenced and
the example, I know that the video you're talking about
because it was a viral one, and to also point
out that like people are not happy with me. People
really want to personalize when I do things like that,
when I contextualize the timeline, and again, like I'm not
(36:00):
pointing out and I think I say it several times,
I'm not pointing out whether or I think this person's
a good or bad person. I don't live in the
world the dichotomist world of good or bad. But I
want people to be careful when they make content, and
I want people to be careful when they consume it.
And so backtracking, so when you come across a video
where someone's like clip someone's this is very, very infamous.
I see this all the time when it comes to creators,
(36:22):
where people clip a certain piece of a video and
they clip it and they don't contextualize it, and they
don't tag the creator, or they leave out the watermark
so that you can go and look at it for yourself,
and they know that most people won't. I've had this
happen to me too as well, which you know, like
(36:44):
it's been absurd. But I want to encourage people to
not just take people at the clip, go and consume
the entire video, because in this podcast, for example, in
this exact moment, I could say, you know, well, everybody sucks,
and if you only clipped everybody sucks, then you would
(37:06):
be like Evan's anti humanist.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I agree, though, advice if you.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
Put it, if you put it in context and realize
it was an example statement that I made, then you
realize that it's not that I'm anti humanist. Again. I
want to encourage people. I know it's so easy to do,
especially when we're on social media or when we're consuming
media which is just endless scrolling, and we're sort of
doing it to be a little mindless. I want to
(37:35):
encourage people to stop and say, like, okay, well, if
this is catching my eye, I should take that extra
step and like search up the original video or click
on the original video and watch it end to end
and come to my own conclusions. Because there's a reason
why someone has clipped somebody the way they have, and
I think that's it can be really cool. It can
be accidental. I don't know. I'm not going to impose that.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
But yeah, yeah, that's and there's a lot and to
take the time to actually take an autopsy, as is implied,
is a whole other manner.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Well, it's all there. I think That's the other thing too,
is using all the tools that are there, Like, is
this something someone said in response to this? I see
this all. I see this often too when people are
like a number of creators recently have been complaining about
this where people have been chastising them for things they
did not do, and it's because people didn't look at
things like timestamps. One of the things that's really important
(38:29):
to think about with like Instagram and TikTok, and it's
very very popular now, is that your FYP, your newsfeed,
whatever it's called, is asynchronous, which means that if you're
scrolling and you've come across a video where a creator
is crying and saying, oh, someone's you know, I've been
someone's been talking mean about me and they you know,
(38:51):
they've they doxed me and and have been critiquing how
I painted my living room walls. And then you scroll
for a little while and you come across another creator
who is talking about like, oh, you know, I had
to hold somebody account all the other day and it
was really difficult, but you know it was important to
(39:13):
like connect and like and they're talking in it. Those
videos aren't necessarily connected to each other but we can
make a lot of assumptions based on thinking that those
people have a relationship, based on thinking that those one
person's talking about the other because one video followed the other,
and that's not true. The other thing that's really tricky
(39:33):
on TikTok is that little like suggested search bar, And
it's so strange because it'll suggest things that are really
unrelated to the content, but you then think it is.
So it'll be like, you know, a man killed by
elephant and you're like, wait a minute, is this video
about a man that was killed by an elephant? And
you're like, So, to not be spoon fed things, but
(39:55):
to actually be proactive. Look at timestamps on videos, look
at the way someone's dressed. You can usually tell if
a creator made a bundle of videos and then you know,
release them over a course of several hours or days.
Look at all of those things before you hop to
a judgment or relate things to each other.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Good advice And then, of course, also you've done a
series about trusted resources, can you give us a quick
rundown on how to vet for a good trusted resource?
Speaker 4 (40:30):
Online is now it's getting more and more difficult. I
always like to encourage people to first start with looking
for open access journal articles or research and reports. And
the reason why it's not because I think that those
entities are like smarter than everybody else whatever. It's because
(40:51):
the process is arduous to get something published in like
Gamma or like you know, the Disabilities Core literally or
any of these journals these like med or their stem
style journals, or even on like a website like NASUM,
which is like the National something Science Education and Medicine.
(41:15):
These entities have a high standard for peer review. Does
this mean everything? Does you know? Some stuff gets by?
And that's there's all sorts of reasons why nepotism can
be one, cronyism can be one, but a high standard
of peer review. The next thing I will say is
that if you cannot find an open access article from
(41:37):
a reputable journal, to also look at citations that people
have used. So I even say this with books because
people don't realize that. You're like, I see people do
this all the time and they're like, oh, I learned
it in a book, and I'm like, yeah, well, books
are edited, but they're not peer reviewed and it and
that's really hard to say because there are some books
(41:59):
I love, but they are biased. They're they're designed with bias.
And so when you're reading a book that was a
research project, because oftentimes people will turn their research into
a book, I see that with I think it's Catherine
Eden's Living on two dollars a day is a good example.
She makes turns her ethnography, which is a research project,
(42:20):
into a book. But she also cite has citations in
her bibliography. Right, So explore the citations, because that's going
to tell you a whole lot of how reputable something
is is did they cite their work correctly? And who
did they cite? If they started to cite a bunch
of gobbledegook, you know, then yeah, that's that starts to
give you a hint. I see this a lot on
(42:42):
like pseudo intellectual or pseudoscientific materials and disinformation websites. They'll
have citations, and their citations are actually cyclical or circular,
so they'll cite themselves a lot, they'll cite other people
that have cited them, so often do a lot of
back and forth citation that mimics scientific research, but it's
(43:06):
not real. And then the other thing I will say
is that you know, if you can look for things
that are posted to reputable institutions, so universities is always
a really good one. Universities love to post sourcing. You
can always check with your local library, librarians or I
don't know why we've lost the love of librarians, but
(43:26):
librarians are actually really great sources to ask because they're
taught library science, so they're taught to identify effective and
ineffective sourcing. And a lot of people don't realize this
is that if there is a resource that you that's
behind a paywall, you can request it from your local
library and they can access it for free for you.
(43:47):
So if there's like a research like paper that you
want to get a hold of, your local librarian can
get it for you and you can request it. There's
no cost to you, and I think there might be
a printing cost if you want it printed. I don't
know with each library, but yeah, library like library science.
We have to lean into your librarians. They are Please
(44:08):
let's in twenty twenty five, let's rediscover the magic of librarians.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Thanks coming back around. I think it's trending because we
love some libraries right here.
Speaker 4 (44:16):
We love and library scientists you.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Know, they have awful masters of them. What they have
to go through isn't tend.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
If there's anybody who knows citation, it is them, like ask.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Them go to research advice. That's why you're here.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Oh, that's awesome.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
We do love libraries.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
We're here.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
We love libraries. So you already gave us some examples.
But going off that question, who are some people that
you would recommend for us and our listeners to follow
(44:59):
or seek out?
Speaker 4 (45:00):
Well, it is Black History Month and I am a bioethicist,
so I would be remiss if I didn't shout out
some amazing great bioethicis and people who do work that
I like to say is bioethical in theory. Right, some
of them are sociologists, but that's okay. We all hang out.
We're all girls. You know. Some of my favorite is
(45:21):
doctor Keisherat. Doctor Kisherre is a bioethicis. She is the
person who's coined the concept black bioethics. She wrote I
think her book is called Black Bioethics, The Black Bioethics
Reader or something like that. The amazing thing about doctor
Keisherret's work, anything that she's published, is actually published at
a very accessible reading level. So her the book that
(45:45):
she has about Black bioethics is written at like a
sixth grade reading level. It's very consumable and you can
learn very easily, and it's very interesting. She's also the
editor for the blog Bioethics Today, so I also want
to encourage people to explore Bioeths Today if you're curious
about bioethics. There's all sorts of bioethicists talking about all
sorts of things in that blog. It's so fascinating. I
(46:07):
love reading it. I have some of my favorites up there.
I've also written for them on occasion, shameless plug. The
other one is, of course Dorothy Roberts. Doctor Dorothy Roberts
is a sociologist but also a bioethicist, and she's written
Killing the Black Body, and she talks a lot about
(46:29):
maternal mortality and black maternal health. She is like one
of the chairs here and you Penn in Philadelphia, so
very very close. Very one day I'll cross her path.
One day I'll be important enough to know her. Harriet Washington.
A lot of people know Harriet Washington's work because she
wrote Medical Apartheid, which sort of put Black bioethics conceptually
(46:53):
on the map because it was such a best selling
book and so many people cite it in like African
American history. But she also does an amazing series of
writing on things like consent, and so I want to
encourage people to write her up to read her other books.
And she also has a book about environmental health and
(47:14):
Black Black disparities in health. So she's really great to
explore beyond medical apartheid, which you should read. And then
the last one I want to mention is Ruha Benjamin.
And the last two is rue Benjamin is a really
great sociologist who talks a lot about inequality in tech.
(47:36):
She talks a lot about things like algorithms and bias,
race based tech and science. She talks a lot about
she I think she's been more exploring more things like
AI and the disparity of AI and things like labor
and labor disparities and labor oppression. And then there's a
Landra Nelson. And the reason why I bring up a
(47:58):
Landa Nelson is because I feel like I her all
the time. In February, because she wrote the entire book
Body and Soul about the Black Panthers health justice work,
and she just I mean end to end. The amount
of work that the Black Panthers endeavored in health justice
is not talked about enough, and it makes me so
ill because it's like their consummate, like magnum opus work.
(48:22):
And we just constantly bring up the fact that they
like marched around in like black beerys and like guns,
which is fine, like that, you know, militancy is you know,
this is not a judgment on that. But the longer
standing work has been their work in health justice. Some
of the clinics that they set up in the nineteen
seventies are still operating today and they are the reason
(48:45):
why we have some of the more systemic public health
designs around things like testing for sickle cell or doing
lead testing in homes. They design those systems and the
US government federally adopted those designs later on. So Laundry
Nelson's book, she is a a sociologist as well. She
put it all together at the history of the Black
(49:06):
Panthers in Health Justice. So explore her work for sure.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Trying to get all this new.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
You see me like pulling up the names, like yep,
got get that book, Gotta get this book, and gotta
get this one making us but.
Speaker 4 (49:22):
It gets good.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
And you know what, with all of this, I again
I told you at the very beginning, I'm so impressed
by the fact that you come in in these really
deep and hard conversations and do it with such eloquence.
But not only but like calm. The calm is what
I'm most impressed by. I honestly like you do it
as an educator. I'm sure you're like, yeah, this is
(49:49):
what we do. Uh. When I read things like this
and it feels like injustice, I go on a rampage
post coursing, maybe my face turning red. And you do
it in such a way that's so educational. So it's approachable,
in a way that even though it takes me a
few few listens to really grasp it, it makes me
want to learn more. But with that, I know it
(50:11):
has to be stressful. I know this work is stressful.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
I know this timing is really really, really stressful.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
So with all of that, we always have to ask,
what do you do when you need to take a break.
What is your Uh I'm not gonna say necessarily like
self care, but.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
What how do you detox when you do that?
Speaker 4 (50:30):
I I'm a lover and a traveler usually, but when
I can't afford that's high brow stuff, you know. But
when I'm really trying to, like you said, detox and
relax out, I really am a huge lover of graphic novels.
I love reading graphic novels. I love independent pressings I have.
(50:54):
I love the illustrations. I love all sorts of like
sci fi based one. I mean, there's this so much.
The graphic novel world is so fascinating because growing up
is like a little black queer like a fab nerd.
One of the first places I could see myself like
reflected as like an interesting character was actually in comic
books and in and maybe not specifically in all those ways.
(51:19):
But the first time I saw queer people as like
interesting dynamic, not just villains and like coded villains, was
like in comic books, especially independent ones, and it's only
gotten better since then. I would say that a lot
of the comic book world, weirdly enough, is like twenty
years ahead of us when it comes to like perception
(51:41):
and how we display certain groups. That's not to say
that there's not comic book artists and writers who are
like absolute jerks, but you can find your story, and
I could. I could find my story pretty early on
in comic books, and I just never stopped loving any
exploring them. So they usually when I'm like done with
(52:03):
the day, I like to go through my very extensive
and embarrassingly like organized graphic novel and comic book collection
and like reread things. And then I also sometimes like
to read things that are more amorphic or like more
like I love culture. I love learning about different groups
(52:25):
and populations and history and so like right now, I'm
currently reading a book about heaven and Hell and the
way that heaven and hell have been imagined across the world,
and it says a lot about the human condition for
how we imagine heaven and hell or paradise and purgatory,
(52:45):
and it's been very fascinating. Pretty quickly, you.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Fit into our world, Annie's I'm like over here chopping
at the book because we love a good comic graphic
novel it I love it.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
We do. And Samantha knows a lot about religions, so fits.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Like I said, month every week, come on the way that.
Speaker 4 (53:05):
We could sit here and talk about what I just
learned about, which was infernal cartography.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
Please please okay, no, we don't have time stop why
so that means we get to have.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yes, you should definitely come back. We would oh gosh.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
I wouldn't talk about every.
Speaker 4 (53:28):
Day every day.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Yeah, we'll negotiate it later later, But in the meantime,
where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 4 (53:40):
They can find me on TikTok I am Evan the bioethicist.
E v n the bioethicist on TikTok I come up
right away if you google bioethics. I think I'm the
only person that uses that hashtag sadness. And then the
other place that I've recently started to build up is
a Patreon. There is a free side of it, like
a free membership. I don't like paid barriers. There is
(54:01):
a five dollars supporter membership that people can get into
if they want to get like longer form more like
curated content that I'm working on now. It's not up
there yet, but I'm working on now, but it will
be behind that five dollars a month little minimum paywall,
and that's mainly to pay for trying to produce like
(54:22):
higher quality more than me just talking at my phone content.
If people aren't into TikTok I just repost the tiktoks
to the free membership section of Patreon. A lot of
people like that better because sometimes people don't like you know,
TikTok's a blessing and a curse, and when things go viral,
you can end up with a lot of really terrible
(54:42):
vibes in the comments section and what have you. So
a lot of my softer hearted I want to say,
followers who want less of that static noise that TikTok
can produce, like to go to Patreon and interact with
Patreon instead, because those are people who are intentionally there,
you know, So find either one. I'm the same on
(55:02):
both platforms.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
Oh yes, I'm going to check that out. Listeners, you
should check it out as well. Thank you so much
Evan for joining us today. It's been in delight and yes,
come back, come back anytime.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
I love it. I'm interested. We could talk about the
non bioethics or professional things too. I'm into it. But
thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
Yes, we'll just have an Evan corner like where you
come in at every so often a lot actually, I
love it.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
But Listeners. In the meantime, if you would like to
contact us, you can you can email us at Hello
at stuff onever told you dot com. You can find
us on Blue Sky at most of a Podcast, or
on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never told you.
We're us on YouTube, We have a tea public store,
and we have book you can get wherever you get
your books. Thanks as always to our super producer, contenior
executive producer Maya and our contributor Joey.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff I
Never told you.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
Use production to by Heart Radio. For more podcast with
my Heart Radio, you can check out the art Radio app,
Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Ye
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Samantha McVey
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