Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. Welcome to stuff I've
never told you protection of ByHeart Radio. And today we
have another interview for you, and it is with two
people that we love, who we know, who we got
(00:26):
to see recently at a book launch, and we're really
really excited to share this interview with you, so let's
get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Today.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
We are so excited to be joined by friends of
the show, friends in real life, Holly and Maria, who
have done so many amazing things, including writing a book
that we're going to talk about. Can you both introduce
yourselves to your audience, to your audience.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Our audience, to the audience.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
You go first, Maria, My name is Maria TREMARKI and
I met Holly about a twenty million years ago and
we were writing and editing together. We came back together
about five years ago to do the podcast Criminalia, and
part of that podcast meant that recently we have written
a book.
Speaker 5 (01:14):
Yeah, So I am Holly Frye. I co host Criminalia
with Maria and also stuff you missed in history class
and I really like drinks. So I pulled the sweetest
scam in the world and figured out a way to
make drinking part of my job because Criminalia has a
(01:36):
drink segment and now it has a cocktail book.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Amazing. I didn't think we'd be here, but here we are.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
It really is amazing. There are so many recipes in here,
and there's both cocktail and mocktail versions. It's just an
astounding amount of research.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Right, a lot of cocktails and marktails, a lot of stories.
I know we both did a ton of research for
both of those things.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, along coming.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
Yeah, we realized in our third season, which was Mocktail Forward,
because we were talking about impostors, we had a number
of people tell us like I love the mocktails, I'm
actually sober, or I just don't like to drink. Could
you do this all the time? And after that we've
had them every season, So the book offered a good
opportunity to go back to those earlier seasons and reconfigure
(02:27):
those so that they also had a mocktail with them,
which was fun.
Speaker 6 (02:30):
So just to kind of start at the beginning, how
did this podcast now book all of the things come about?
Because this is an intriguing topic.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
This began with Holly, so I'll let her start the story.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Yeah, So Criminalia is part of the Shondaland slate of podcasts,
which I was originally executive producing that slate and Ours
and Boss Boss Connell Burn had brought me the story
of Julie Tafana, which I had already heard about, and
he said, is this a podcast? And she was a
(03:06):
woman poisoner of ancient Rome, and I was like, no,
but it's the kernel of one like she her story
is not substantial enough and there's not enough substantive research
material to make that into a whole show on its own.
But there's something here about this idea of women who
(03:29):
are killers and women who are poisoners and doing something
true crimey that's not contemporary, that has a little more
distance and feels a little less voyeuristic. So that's where
it all started. And then I immediately was like, hey,
I'm already writing a show that being history class and
(03:50):
I was like, I don't think I can also write
this show. So that I know who can, And Mariana
is the one and only person I reached out to you.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
She got a.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Flurry of very aggressive texts one day.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
I wouldn't call them aggressive, but I would call them
a flurry.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yes, it was just very intense.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
It was like, Hey, I'm starting a show and I
would like you to write it, and also here's what
it's about, and also here's what it would involve, and
here's what So uh, text me back after you get
these thirty seven different things about what I'm thinking.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
And imagine imagine me though, I'm on an airplane when
all of these are coming in and I am deplaning,
when they're all coming to my phone, and.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I'm not trying to read all of these, I'm like,
what is is Holly? Okay, like Holly, dial nine one one,
this is what is happening.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
But I had I had never I have never been
in the podcast world before. I'd never written anything for
podcasts and co hosted, hosted any any any of the
above things for a podcast. And I was immediately intrigued
by that and the fact that it was historical true crime,
that it wasn't going to be you know, ten years
(05:06):
ago this thing happened, and you know, the family is
still dealing with it and it has emotion about it,
and people are you know, we've both talked about how
we never wanted a scenario where someone's going to show
up at somebody's house and it's because of that particular
crime story. So working in the historical true crime field
(05:27):
has been really interesting because you see parts of the
world through a very different eye. Like Pirate season in
particular was like that for me, like you really you know?
And they would and it's it's funny. Some seasons will
pop up in other seasons too, which I always really enjoy,
Like Arsenic became a character for us in our first
(05:48):
Ladies Who Poisoned season, But now when it pops up,
I always have and it sounds terrible to say, but
I always have kind of a bit of affection for
when I see Arsenic poison like murder by Arsenic because
it was my very first season of Criminale some good thought.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
You're like, oh, I know you very well.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
I was joking the other day because it came up
and I was like, hello, Arsenic.
Speaker 7 (06:13):
We did.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
We did, actually just have a script for an episode
where Arsenic was the method of death. And I I
want to say that I chose it because of the story,
but I know that part of me also chose it
because the story included Arsenic.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
Maria's Arsenic bias is really driving the bus.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
It is it is you just you just wait and see,
like it's going to come up in everything from now on.
I will find it. I'll be like ours, surely there
was arsenic here somewhere.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
We'll find it.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
I will track it down and I will write an
episode about it.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
That's funny. I love that.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
You know, we have talked a lot about women in
true crime on this show, and I think it's really
interesting to hear you both being really careful with it
and having these different seasons where some seasons are more
difficult than others, like maybe taking more of a toll,
like the Art Height season. You Art Height season you've
(07:12):
talked about it was really fun. Yeah, But then you're
doing you're working on cold cases, right like, and that
one's much more difficult.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
So cold cases is hard.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Cold cases is hard.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Yeah, Partners in Crime turned out to be much harder
than I thought it was going to be as well.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
That was our previous.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Season, probably the most violent season.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yes, that's why I think I think so too.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
There was resolution, which is always it's always nice to
have resolution in these which we aren't getting in cold cases.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
You know you're getting these really. We were just recording one.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
This week where there's a very violent murder that happens,
and then dot dot dot.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
You know.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
But what's interesting about the seasons is they all sort
of focus a little bit differently, Like some of a
really kind of fun like impostors. There were people who
didn't you know, they just made people up. They weren't
they weren't pretending to be people who existed. Most of
the time, you know, they're just kind of in it
for the rush. But then you have some seasons where
you're like, wow, this is this is really like you
(08:17):
get to the end and right before the cocktail, you're
thinking to yourself, this was a really difficult story to tell,
and I need a second to just take a breath,
and then then we'll talk about cocktails and mocktails to
lighten it up a little bit. But yeah, we still
talk about doing a second season of art Heists, which
I think would be great because usually nobody dies, you know,
(08:37):
they're pretty fun to yeah, yeah, and sometimes you get
like sometimes you get people where you're like you tried
it that way, like you thought that was going to work.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You just put it in your pocket and laughed, like.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, there there are some some rough ones. Our
Witchcraft season was someone very difficult because a lot of
it is very steeped obviously in misogyny and like people
having a bias to just presume anyone that didn't live
the way they did must be inherently evil. And so
there was a lot of I'm using the air quotes's
(09:13):
evidence that was really more like just oh, you're just eccentric,
or you're or you wronged me once, so I'm going
to accuse you of this thing, and you will die
because you pissed me off once, like, which.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
Is which came up a lot, and it was that
was really disturbing season.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
You know, it was very difficult.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
We combined it with alchemy, and for the most part
what we you know, like if you just looked at
at at the surface of it, the female witches were
all burned alive, and the alchemists just went on to
do something else maybe or somebody didn't really read there exactly,
maybe nobody read their their journal paper that they put
(09:56):
out that year, like I I you know, it was
such a just such a stark difference between the two
and you know, and that the consideration of dark arts
was still for both of them, even though they were
treated so differently.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Well, I'm interested in how because the book you had
to choose, you had to really curate on this, like
the stories and the cocktails, and it's fantastic. We got
to go to your to a reading that you all
did and there was.
Speaker 7 (10:29):
There.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
It was lovely.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
It was like halloweenish time and it was kind of
a halloweenish cock It was so nice.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That was I think sort of the unofficial book launch. Yeah,
we had. It was a nice time. We had a
cider drink that we were.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Doing pumpkin apple cocktails exactly.
Speaker 6 (10:48):
Which, by the way, I have created one of the
cocktails with the I don't know why I was showing
off the cup like you can stay the ingredients, but yes,
I did create one from the.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Cop I had to get a fancy cup.
Speaker 6 (11:02):
But yeah, so I did the Galen's gulp. I told
Holly because I was like, I have these ingredients. Yeah,
because I was like, oh no, but I for research
only quite delicious. But I love that this book happened.
How did this book come about? We talked about the podcast,
(11:23):
now tell us about the book, which are all the
good cocktails the book.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Similarly, Maria got a text because I didn't.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
It was always a little bit of a finger cross
in the back of my head, like I churned into
a book, but I wasn't sure we did. From the
jump get a lot of reach outs from listeners that
were like, are you gonna put this in some sort
of published thing, or are you gonna put this online?
Or so I started to put together a book proposal
(11:57):
and was talking to people on our iHeart end of
things and saying like, hey, you know, can we maybe
run this up the chain and pitch it places? And
they were like yes. And at that point I was like, Maria,
I didn't want to tell you in case it just
you know, sputtered out. But we're working on a book pitch,
(12:19):
so now is the time that I need to hand
some stuff off to you and have you go over
it and put your touch on it so that it,
you know, maintains our our vibe and whatnot. And we
made a bunch of cocktails and took pictures of them
and put them in it, and Maria fine tuned the
narratives and we sent it out and I'm always a
(12:40):
little I'm always a little embarrassed to say that it
was very desired, uh. And it actually went to auction,
which was cool where a bunch of publishers had to
put in bids, which was really surreal. It was very
very lucky.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
I feel like, you know, you put a postal out
and you're like, well, maybe someone might be interested, and
it was it was more than one someone, and it
was it was really it was actually really telling that hey,
maybe we're we're doing something that is is interesting to others,
not just yes.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
Right, I mean, it's very interesting. It's different. It gives
you recipes on top of the fact, you get historical
lessons and a beautiful illustrations. Those those pictures of the
cocktails are so pretty and all of that. And I
know Any started off the question and I didn't let
you finish. So how did you come to the point
of like picking out, picking and choosing the recipes, picking
(13:38):
and choosing the stories, because you got you guys have
a lot.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
I think, well, when I was choosing, I was going
through this is The book actually encompasses eight seasons of
the podcast, but the episodes are not. It's probably about
fifty percent, would you say, about half and half episodes
from this show and then new episodes and cocktails and
mocktails are the other fifty percent. And so going through
(14:03):
eight seasons, that's a lot of seasons to go through.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
But I went through not with them.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
My first past wasn't with these are stories that I
really enjoyed telling. It was these are I was looking
at the pair each time, So I was looking at
what the cocktail mocktail was plus what the story was,
and did they both seem really solid to me?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Did they both seem like they could stand.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Up in a book, And did it also seem like
I could take the story and make it, you know,
a bit of a more of a postcard than an episode.
But that was that was where I first started, was
just looking at both, not just narratives, because the cock
it's a Killer Cocktails book, and the narratives are those
(14:48):
cocktails inspirations. So I want to make sure everybody was
very friendly, hand in hand and could stand on their own.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
And then it becomes a little bit about balance because
I had picked out, like, okay, here my favorite cocktails
from any given season. But then are we running a
little too heavy on clear liquors?
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Are we.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
You know, balancing out the types of things? Are too
many of these floral cocktails? Because I'll admit, like I
love a floral cocktail.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
We both do, so we could fall into that really easy.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
I also love a deserty cocktail, so we try to
not only have those and be repetitive, but also try
to make sure that, you know, we have enough ingredient
repetition that it feels like a cohesive season where people
can make use of anything, specially they've had to buy.
That was kind of how we balance that out. And
then once we picked news stories, that was always back
(15:43):
of mind to me, Okay, what is this what is
this chapter now missing in terms of a balance out,
what is what is lacking? What would compliment the other
things we have so that it does, you know, give
some variety but also makes sense together.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
I always have a list of episode ideas that don't
make it to a particular season, and so that was
my first place of going to when I was like, Okay,
we've got.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
More stories that we've got to find.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
And there are some people I know I wanted to
talk about, and some of them made it.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
And some of them didn't.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
You know, some of them just didn't have a strong
enough you know, primary sources or strong enough story. But
but we did have a few places where we could begin,
which was nice.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
That I feel so hard the difficulty of finding like
primary sources so tricky.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Sometimes when we come across things like, you know, this
is the first murder ever recorded with the entire court
transcripts still available, I'm like.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
What, this is the only document I need. We're good.
There's usually that so far away from what the reality is.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Absolutely, one of the things we wanted to talk about
is you you both have been working together for a
long time. Are known each other for a long time,
(17:25):
I'll say, And Samantha and I also we struggle with,
you know, the sources.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
We also wrote a book.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
It was in different circumstances, and we had those concerns.
We had these concerns of like, will are our friendship
with the and this kind of working.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
So there is a moment in an elevator and Atlanta Georgia.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Looked at Holly.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
It was after we recorded the audio book, and I
looked at Holly and I was like, that day was exhausting,
and we actually ended up going back to our respective
her house in my room and just both passing out.
I mean, this is the kind of thing that really
tests your friendship. And I was like, I think we're
doing pretty good, and she's like, that's what you.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Think, sarcast.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I love that little story because I.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Actually, I do believe that we did make it through.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Okay, you know, like I mean, it was a lot
of pressure us back and forth and a lot of
just I mean, like I was saying that, there is
a lot of pressure, there's a lot of deadline, there's
a lot of decisions that need to be made. And
I I've always found that Holly and I have been
very collaborative through our whole work experience. So when we met,
(18:46):
I was a writer at How Stuff Works since she
was my editor, and I remember saying from time to
time like Holly will edit my articles and I won't
necessarily like she can sound exactly like me, which makes
our relationship ship also that much better too when it
comes to writing the book and putting pieces together or
you know, hey, I noticed this about the cocktail intro,
(19:07):
or hey I noticed this about the intro to X story,
and we were really able to just sort of back
and forth. I took care of this for you. I
you know, I noticed this for you and I it
was it was a question that was on my mind
before we started too I mean, this is a very
it's a very intimate thing to get into with another writer.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Yeah, yeah, does is sound bad if I say it
never even occurred to me?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
No, it doesn't sound bad because I think that we have.
We just kind of went right, like we're just doing this.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
We're just start of getting it at, going back and forth,
and really, like even when we're prepping an episode, right,
Maria writes the primary, she hands it up to me.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
I do an edit, pass, I hand it off to her.
She does her last edit.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
But like any editing I'm doing is either I know
something about this topic, we should add this in, or
just the secondary ear at that point of saying, yeah,
you know what, if we only leave it this way,
I think a listener might.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Be confused or it won't be computed.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
It's never like it. It's always a yes, and do
you know what I mean? It's never like this sucks
take this out. It's always like, how can we just
find tune this? I see what you're doing. You're like
ninety nine point nine percent of the way there. But
if we just move this phrase to the back of
the sentence, it's gonna make it punchier.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
It's like all writers know that like that is that
is just it's critical. It's lovely to have somebody who
can go, you know what, I'm going to take your
sentence and flip it and now look at it and
you go, oh Jesus. I was thinking the same thing
the whole time, but I just didn't do it, you know.
And so when when we're doing the scripts, it is
really helpful to think about things like she'll leave me
little comments and you know, did you say it was
(20:51):
it this?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Or was it this? And I'm like, well, I think
it was this, you know, and I go, I gause.
I go back and forth a little bit, but it's uh,
it was at the beginning.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
It was a little bit harder for me because I'd
never written anything for audio, and so I was relying
on Holliday to be.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Like, listen, is this correct?
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Like is this the way that that I should be
you know, is this a good script sort of template,
not not to templatize what the story means, but a
way that I should be writing this. And that was
very helpful because she has a lot of podcasting experience,
and now I'll leave her comments where I'll be like,
oh my god, I can't believe that they said blah blah.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Blah blah blah, knowing that she's the next edit. You know.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
But there's one thing actually that is a little bit
different in this in the in the episodes is from
the very beginning, I don't know and I don't want
to know. I've made it very clear, so this is nobody,
no surprise to anybody, but I'm always as surprised as
a listener when it comes to the cocktail and mocktail
(21:55):
segment and I don't know what it's going to be titled.
I don't know what the ingredients are going to be.
I don't know, and I don't want to. I want
it to be I wanted to. I wanted to unfold
to me in the same way that faults in the audience.
And I know Allie's laughing about this, But when you've
written the narrative of it, and and you know you
know someone very well and she's going to be making
(22:17):
the drink that goes with this, you know, I always
stop and think to myself, like, this is a really
great quote that Holly might find inspirational for her, you know,
cocktail name or maybe you know, maybe the cocktail itself,
and whenever I come across like little sort of oddities,
I always make sure they get in there because I
want her to have as much creativity as she can
from that that story.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
But yeah, I know nothing.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
About the cocktails. I know anohing.
Speaker 6 (22:43):
I love this conversation. That's one of the things that
Andy I talk about often is about our relationship and
being like you see so often when people don't know
how to work together and they can fake it, but
there's still just something you know and like yeah right yeah,
And then also just the level of support that really
really makes the show or really really makes a working
(23:07):
project so much better, and just out of curiosity.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
When you guys are.
Speaker 6 (23:11):
Working together and collaborating, does it feel like it's growing
your friendship or does it feel like you're having to
just do workure This woman dread.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Thank god she lives three thousand miles away from me.
Speaker 6 (23:25):
Every week is a wake knuckle up here, I have
to get this drink done or not going to be.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
It's great. It's so easy and so relaxed.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
It really is.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
It really is really easy and relax like it's a
kind of environment. Holly and I I feel where when
we had I'm just gonna use it. I'm going to
use one example from our audiobook reading experience again. I
had what was turning into kind of a migraine one
morning when I woke up at my hotel and I
was like, this day is full of French, which I
(23:59):
have a hard time I'm with and like, I would
rather be like seriously, I'm like I was talking the
other day. We had some Welsh names that came up,
or town names I think that came up in our script.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
And I was like, Welsh is real hard, but I'd
rather do that than French because I feel like the
Welsh will forgive me, whereas.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
That's fair.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
I'm using this example as just a way of saying,
oh my god, I think my head is going to
fall off.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
And Holly was like, well, we'll just we'll just switch
this and this and we'll be fine.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
And I was like, wow, that was really easy, you know,
And it's just it's just very easy, you know, Hey,
can we switch today?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Can we do this? What about this person?
Speaker 3 (24:37):
You know?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Like it's all very accepted and very just.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Part of part of what the show and book are
well more of the show now these days.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
Yeah, yeah, I think part of it really is just
there are a few components that I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
You two also know that go into like keeping.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
It easy breezy, right, there's a lot of trusts which
we started out with on the show because we had
worked together before. And I know, like Maria doesn't drop
the ball. If she does some really serious going down.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I'm probably be cats and.
Speaker 5 (25:13):
She would have grace from me anyway. And you know,
even when you would think she would, she would have
every excuse on earth to drop the ball.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
She never does.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
But also like we both know, okay, I had this
thing come up. Can we change this around or like
never scheduling this week. It's like we're both pretty unflappable.
We both recognize likes none of this, none of this
is brain surgery. We can handle this. We can work
around it. Like if we record on a different day,
it's fine.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I can't handle it. It has to be always the same. Yeah, No,
it's it's we just roll with a lot of stuff.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
Mostly we have two hour conversations about our pets, and
somewhere in there we've gotten forty minutes of a show.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
And then we go, oh, should we record, Like I'm.
Speaker 6 (26:01):
I love that that's that's understandable and I approve, especially
especially this week because Holly has two new kiddies at home.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Sorry, there was a lot of conversation about kidies. It's
just like a.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Kiddie fever over here. I want to hug a cat, which.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
Then, of course my brain is like, can I come
up with some sort of.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Season?
Speaker 7 (26:22):
So that's funny cat true cat burglars hey, you know,
and every time I'm going to be like and then
the tabby across the street.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Saw the man climb the pole.
Speaker 6 (26:35):
And there's a whole narrative with the cat lady conversation,
with the fact that when you get like the cat scratches,
that actually is can.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Cause cat scratch fever is usually a lymphatic infection, yes, okay,
but there is a specific parasite that is often in
many cats systems. Is it tox of plasma? Gandhi, please
(27:06):
don't it's tox of plasmosis. But it's yeah, because I
just got that thing wrong. But that can actually change
your behavior you're exposed to.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
They're like totally in charge of you.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
Yeah, it's not quite the same as like the parasitic
infections that like turn the host into a zombie right.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
About.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
You know, servitude, but there is. That's why you know,
pregnant women are always encouraged not to scoop litter boxes,
et cetera, because they're at heightened sensitivity to it, and
that is usually where you might be exposed to it.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Hey, Cat Burglary, the first episode, I'm gonna be like,
this is from my friend.
Speaker 5 (27:58):
I would rob a bank if my cat told me to,
So that seems correct.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
But treats it.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Does, right.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
My cat is trying to teach me new times of
day when she should have treats.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Just when I leave is not working, so.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Just like, don't leave enough.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So she's like, are you in the kitchen? I think
I'm in a treat You're in the kitchen.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
They're right there. I don't understand the problem.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
And they're behind glass cabinet door. So she's like, look,
I can see them. I'm going to get that parasite
and you.
Speaker 6 (28:41):
Eventually, Oh, I love all these conversations and it's such
a great like common ground in this conversation and being
able to be friends and actually get along with each
other and enjoy each other's company. That's such a different
level of when it comes to especially if you're like
heavy dead Lives, because I know, writing a book, doing
the audiobook, we know.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
You guys did an audio Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
That was a surprise of us.
Speaker 6 (29:06):
We didn't realize we had to do one, and then
it came up.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Were likely we didn't realize. Yeah, we don't know why.
They were like, what's happening reading our book is this is.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Like I never would have written this if I know
I had to say it out loud like.
Speaker 6 (29:22):
The way we wrote our book to this, we were.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Like, wait, I had moments like that.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
I was like, I never would have written it this
way if I knew I was going to be reading
the audio book.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Taken all.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Us bring, but you keep the Italian because I'll mess it.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Up right, Well, we're gonna we should have been like,
we'll split this up by mostly just by you know,
everget we did it the way that we do the
podcast that we just kind of you know, a alternating,
But yeah, we absolutely should have been like in the
Holly will take all the French, Marius to call the
Italian and well, everybody gets well.
Speaker 6 (30:04):
I do that sometimes I do sometimes the for hour
we have a famished around the world type of a segment,
and if it's like French, I'm like, oh, Annie say this,
because she knows French better than in German. I'm like,
and then even like Mandrain she does well, I'm like,
I'm gonna let her handle this.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You're the language person.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
I love it because you spring it on me.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
I'm like, hey, we don't have about the last minut
I'm like, there it does.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah, you go, I'm not going to read this next sentence.
That's you.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Essentially, that's what I put in just for you, just
for you, boo.
Speaker 6 (30:37):
But all of that with that, how was the process
in writing this book, as well as doing the audio
for you?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
I mean, you know what.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
A lot of it was hurry up and wait, yeah,
understand that. It would be like, your deadline is this week. Okay, cool, cool, cool,
We're gonna bang this out, no problem, we got it.
We have it over to you. And then it would
be like, are we getting pages back soon because you
have another.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Deadline coming in right and it's soon like and.
Speaker 5 (31:05):
Then there was an interesting thing that happened because initially
we were both kind of looking at everything and we
realized we needed to silo up a little bit to
keep things moving along where I kind of focused on
the cocktail pieces and she focused on the narrative.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yeah, but Souse, there were sanity at the end.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
There were a couple moments where that bit us on
the tail a little bit, because then our copy editor
was like, wait, there's something referenced in the drink that
isn't in the narrative, and it was like, uh oh, spaghettios.
So we just had to like go back and make
things match up again.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
We tried.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
I think we might still have one or two that
actually made it into the book where we were like,
I know there's one story title that doesn't make a
lot of sense with the story, but what can you do?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
You know, you.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Need to like you're the very We were at the
very end of the book process and I remember I
actually remember this particular story, and to fit the copy
onto the page, we needed to cut like and I
think I needed to cut like maybe maybe two minds
or something like that.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
But in cutting them.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
I removed the reference to the headline and I didn't
realize it. And I think both of us at that
point we had been very aware of like cutting X
will impact why. But when you get to the very
end you're like, wow, I'm at the very end, and
I just yeah, yeah, it's got to be done, just
has to has to happen.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
And I think I actually went in thinking that we
have one more.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Look see at the the final before we went to
read the audio book, and I was like, this is
the final.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
It we did too, we did, we told we had
one more.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
I'm curious about the two of you. Did you have
the thing happen, because I know this happened to us,
where when you're reading the audiobook, which is essentially you
are reading from the locked manuscript, were you like, damn,
I wish we could have done this earlier because there's
some stuff I would go back into a switcher on
and I was like, I know, saying it out loud,
I don't like this as much anymore. Yeah, well, I
(33:00):
mean they were minor, but it's still there were a
few things that popped up, and I'm like, I would
have reworded that.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
There were minor things, and they were minors so much
so that there was one I remember very clearly, there
was one stalker story that needed to end in a
question mark, but it ended in a period and that
will always haunt me.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Yes, We definitely had those moments, mainly because again we
had not even processed the idea that this was going
to be an audio format. Yeah, but we would have
like this moments of like this sounds so robotic because
reading it it seems like a very matter of fact
like information that you're just trying to get out there
so that the rest of the conversation or story makes sense.
(33:42):
But when you're reading it out loud, you don't know
how to actually relay it in a way that's both
interesting and noting that it's needed. So I remember a
couple of moments like this doesn't this doesn't sound right?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah, isn't that fun?
Speaker 5 (33:55):
I absolutely considering that the origin point is a podcast, yes, right,
then it goes to book, but then when you read
the book, it doesn't sound right.
Speaker 7 (34:04):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
When we were doing it, the person who was like
our director, she was like podcasters are terrible at.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
This, because she was like, it's just different.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
It's different having like a conversation with someone that can
like move and evolve versus I have to read this
off of page right.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
Also, we're writing a script versus writing a story, Like
it's two different things than our book.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yeah, And like, and you're right.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
It is the difference between writing the script for your
episode and writing a story that's they're a short story
that's going to be you know, highlighting a drink in
a book, it's a different kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
So I always I'm always reading, and I know Holly
is too.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
When we get our scripts, we're always reading them aloud
and in different draft modes, you know. But when you're
working with the book, you are, I mean, at least
I was reading it aloud, but it's not quite the
same as when you get into that room.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
And our room when we.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
Did our audio book was one big recording studio, and
we sat in it together, which I generally when we
and I was outing myself as as kind of gross,
but like.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
We record, I cough a lot.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
When I'm talking for this amount of time, and so
it was one of those moments where you were like,
I can't even like pick up the pronunciation piece of
paper because I will make a noise and Holly's talking
and I'm not used to that kind of problem, and
this was like this like I got a sneeze and
I can't and I got my It was so it
(35:32):
wasn't even just reading it was just like daily living
in my body. That was difficult, very silent.
Speaker 7 (35:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
The director would occasionally come on and be like, there's
some weird noise I can't.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
One time he's like, I think I heard somebody's stomach grumble.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
I'm like, oh, that's me.
Speaker 7 (35:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I didn't want to open my water because it might
actually cause noise.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Like yeah, I had at the time when we did
our audio book, I had a stress related vocal problem
called globis. It was horrible. I still struggle with it.
But it just makes you feel like there's something in
your throat all the time.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Are you clear? Do you clear your throat a lot? Clear?
Speaker 1 (36:13):
It feels like like you're swallowing a lot.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
You swallow a lot.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
But yeah, it's this like speaking noise in this and
it's the worst, like the worst thing for the job
that we have.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
I'd be interested if you have thoughts about this. Our
book was a tough one to read aloud because I
it was emotional and it was like a really rough
I was not anticipating I was going to have to
say this, and now I'm doing it. Because you work
in true crime and you've talked about how that's not
necessarily something that has super interested you in the past,
(36:56):
but like the historical aspect of being careful and all
of those aspects. But was it Is it difficult sometimes
when you're you're reading these things or writing these things.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yes. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
I actually recall there was one story that you were reading,
Holly when we were in the audiobook room, where she
just and I knew that this was a story that
that uh, that that got her the first time we
read it, and Janet Horne and I know it's a
really difficult one for Holly, and I tried to be
like super quiet when she had to read it because
I knew she was like getting through it, you.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Know, paying it by a thread. I mean, it's like one.
Speaker 5 (37:37):
It was not originally an episode of ours. It's one
that was just for the book, and it's about a
woman who was burned as a witch, but she almost
just had dementia and.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Her story just really I don't know what it is.
Speaker 5 (37:54):
It really hits me hard, even to the point where
when I made the drink for it and I was
The illustrations are actually they start with photographs, like I
take photographs of all the drinks. I staged them out
with props and then I put those those photographs into
photoshop and I do tracing around them and cross hatching
and like make them look like you know, the idea
(38:16):
was to borrow from the Jerry Thomas Cocktail book from
the eighteen sixties. That's all, you know, crosshatchy pen illustration
and even doing hers like all of the taking the
picture of her drink, I was like, kind of a mess.
All of the ingredients in it are about it's called apology,
and it's all the ingredients are about forgiveness and making
(38:41):
peace and apologizing. And I included kali lilies as part
of her photograph because those are also associated with the
idea of penitents. And I literally kept getting choked up
just taking the damn pictures of the cocktail and I
was like, we is gonna be a mess. And I
barely got through that.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I know that story ended.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
The ending image in her story is her being walked
to her execution point and there's a fire going because
they're going to burn her, and she just walks over
and starts warming herself by the fire, and that's.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
The end of her story. And that how could it
not get you?
Speaker 3 (39:23):
I mean, really, I literally have choked up just talking
about this.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yes, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 7 (39:28):
No, no, no, don't be sorry. It's easy crier, so
it's not that long a walk. But she in particular
really hits my heart in a way that none of
the others have. I mean, many others have made me
cry at various times, but she's just like really hard
for me.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Her story is a very very emotional and difficult one.
I find sometimes when.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
I'm doing research for various episodes that there will be
things that will come up that will either change my
change my mind about how the script is going to
be written, or sometimes change my mind on whether or
not that person or person's will even become an episode.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
There are some.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Things that I kind of hold back on when I'm
looking at our season schedule, and well, one we talked
about earlier we don't.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Do modern true crime.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
But two, there's this there's a there's a children component
to it that I don't feel.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Comfortable talking about.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
And in general, you won't find children come up in
our episodes unless they are not the main character. And
that in particular has become a really interesting problem in
Cold Cases season because a lot of cold cases tend
to I didn't know this before I started my research there,
(40:50):
but a lot of the cold cases that are historical
cold cases seem to be very heavy on young women
in their early twenties and and.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Kids.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
And so there are some things I just find a
little bit taboo, a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit
just don't want to go down that path of this
particular podcast isn't for that. Those are hard stories, and
you know, I mean, sometimes you just come across some
really hard, you know, quotes that you know somebody said
when they testified, and you're like, oh, my gosh, do
(41:24):
I include this idiot in the script or do I not?
But sometimes it's actually the story takes a turn where
you think, to yourself, this is absolutely horrifying, and then
you have to decide what to do with that.
Speaker 5 (41:38):
Those are the ones where are when we do them.
The cocktail often tends about tends to be about trying
to be an antidote for that.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Sitch exactly, and I love that.
Speaker 7 (41:47):
One of our.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
Recent seasons, so it's not in the book, one of
the women that we talked about in the Criminal Duos
season had a mother who treated her like trash, and
even so when she was eventually incarcerated. She wrote letters
to her mom that were so concerned about having hurt
(42:12):
her mother and having like embarrassed the family and stuff.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
And so.
Speaker 5 (42:18):
The drink we ended up making was kind of like
a you know, what if she had had the life
she should have had, because she was a very smart, curious,
interesting person who was very very chic in her mode
of dress, and like, if she had had the life
she should have had, she would have been amazing. And
I was like, what is the drink that she would
have had in her cosmopolitan lifestyle? Yes, that she really
(42:40):
really deserved to live, And that's the drink we ended
up making.
Speaker 4 (42:44):
And instead she was married to Clyde Barrow's brother, you know,
like it got.
Speaker 5 (42:49):
Completely involved in like stuff she had no business being.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
No business and she even said, you know, she wrote
later on that she know, she know her role was
really like I would pay for the lodging and I.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Would cook the food and do the clothing.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
And she really wasn't she was part of the gang,
but she would she didn't.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Really, yeah, she wasn't.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
But it was one of those cases where he was
the first person that ever treated her kindly and with
genuine love, and so it was like, well, you're a
criminal and you're involved in some shady stuff, but but
you're kind to me, and that's all. I've never had
that before, so I'll stick it out.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
And he was really hers was really very sad. And
when we got to the you know, her time in prison,
because you know, one she she was part of this
gang where if you needed to pick one person who
was going to go to prison for everything that they
were doing, it probably shouldn't have been her. But but
but just her, Yeah, Holly. I mean, when Holly was
(43:45):
talking about her letters, it really reminded me that her
story is so separate from the story that she actually
was living. And sometimes you come up with these these
these dualities or these surprises in your research and you're like, oh, well,
we should talk about her because she's interesting and not
(44:06):
just because she wears really great pants, just.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Because she dresses like a starlet.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Right Man, nineteen thirty.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
I love this because I think it's so important when
you're talking about things like this that it's the compassion
and the curiosity is so clear and just like really
wanting to get to know the people that you're talking about.
I would love if we could briefly discuss I think
it's interesting that both of you kind of tried new
(44:40):
ish things for this, because Holly you had done like
you were familiar with cocktails, but you actually went to
bartending school, right.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
I did, she did. Yeah, and they're so creative.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
I love how much thought you put into like, yeah,
what do these ingredients mean?
Speaker 3 (44:57):
And everything?
Speaker 5 (44:58):
Yeah, I mean I I've realized pretty quickly, like listen,
Holly drinks. I've had a lot of cocktails in my time, right,
I'm a pretty adventurous consumer, so there have been I
will try a lot of things that I've never had before,
and so I knew probably more than the average bear
(45:19):
about various cocktails.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
But I really.
Speaker 5 (45:21):
Didn't have the foundational knowledge that was gonna carry me
through seasons and seasons. And I didn't even know we
would be here at season you know, fifteen, talking about
new things and being I don't know how many hundreds
of drinks in the mix. But I just realized, like,
I am gonna make messes if I don't get my
act together and really really get that you know, baseline
(45:45):
foundational knowledge under my belt. So that I mean, I
go into my canteena to experiment already having usually a
pretty solid idea in mind of what is what I'm making.
And that's because of that education, which was.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
You know great. I highly recommend it for anybody.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
It's a really fun, fun area of learning, and I
ended up with some really fun history knowledge from it
because the course that I took also talked about things like, hey,
here's why this rum is different from other RUMs, and
it's because there was a slave uprising on the island
(46:24):
where they originally processed this, and so you don't have
it from molasses runoff anymore. It's from pure cane sugar.
And I was like, this is the course for me,
This is the correct one, And.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
She'll come back from that and I'll be like, tell
me more.
Speaker 5 (46:44):
You know, ended up researching to a lot of cocktail history, right,
Like I often, because we're telling historical stories, it's a
good fallback. It's like a really good safety net when
I especially when we're dealing with a story that is
sad or upsetting, to be able to be like, okay,
but what drinks were popular at this time and how
(47:05):
can we tie that into this story. We just did
one like that that we recorded this week because it
was like a little tricky, and I was like, hey,
but what is I know, we're talking about a really
gruesome murder, but what was going on in cocktails then?
And ended up turning up the story of a woman
who was one of the few head bartenders at the
(47:28):
Savoy Hotel in London in nineteen twenty or in the
nineteen twenties, So like, she has her own interesting story
and we could tie that into the cocktail segment and
make it less about so almost beheaded. Oh yeah, that's
not an awesome place to start drinking, but we can
talk about what else was going on in this time period.
Speaker 4 (47:49):
This is what everyone was So this this particular episode
that we wrote was very media. Tabloids were real fresh
and so it was real tabloid story forward and they
were really pushing the story.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
And the way that I went when Holly.
Speaker 4 (48:03):
Came to talk about the cocktail and mocktail, the way
that I started thinking about it was this is what
people were drinking when they were gossiping about what was
going on with this particular trial, And that was actually
kind of a neat little way to think about.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Like everybody in the bar had this particular episode.
Speaker 4 (48:20):
They're all talking about what Herst's newspaper was just you know,
just printed on its front page.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Well, thank you so much for joining us, Holly Afria.
You were such a delight to talk to you. We
should do a cocktail mocktail hour.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
We come back together any day. Sign of hats But
where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (48:41):
In my bar?
Speaker 5 (48:42):
Making is a safe bet? I gotta tell you.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
So like.
Speaker 5 (48:52):
You could you know, listen to Criminalia anywhere you listen
to your favorite shows. We opted to not do specific
Criminalia social media handle, so you could just hashtag Criminalia
and we will see it. And then the book Killer
Cocktails is available anywhere you would buy books.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
And this has been such a delight. Obviously we could
have kept going, but listeners. In the meantime, if you
would like to contact us, you can. You can email
us at Hello at stuff Onnever Told You dot com
or stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You
can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast,
or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never Told
You for us on YouTube. We have a tea public
(49:32):
store and we have book you can get wherever you
get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer,
Presenior Executive Producer Maya and.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Listening stuff on Never Told You Use Production by Heart Radio.
For more podcast on my Heart Radio, you can check
out the Art Radio Appple podcast or where you listen
to your favorite shows.