SMNTY Interviews: Raquel Willis

Activist, author and podcaster Raquel Willis returns to SMNTY after accomplishing so much to talk about her book The Risk it Takes to Bloom and her new podcast Afterlives.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and a of fome.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Stuff I've never told you protective of iHeartRadio, and today
we are so excited and a little nervous to be
joined by the amazing, award winning activist, author and podcaster

(00:27):
Raquel Willis. Thank you so much for taking the time
out of your very busy schedule for kel of.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
Course, Well, thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 (00:35):
I feel like I'm returning home in a sense to Sminty.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yes, because you have been on Sminty before. We were
just talking about this and we are going to talk
about it a bit more because you did work at
how Stuff Works as it was at the time you
were on Sminty when it was Kristen and Caroline. You've
been in Atlanta, which is where Samantha and I live. Yes,

(01:01):
and we're very excited to see you again on an
upcoming book tour.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
But for the listeners, as we were just discussing off Mike,
you've done a lot since then, You've grown a lot
as a person, but also done a lot since then.
And that was a very simplified introduction I gave you.
Can you introduce yourself to our audience? Please?

Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:23):
Well, hello, sminty fam. I am Roquel Willis. I am
a black transactivist, now author and media strategist, and so
much of my work is dedicated to honoring the dignity
of folks on the margins, which of course means women
and folks of varying gender experiences, folks.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Of color, and on and on.

Speaker 4 (01:47):
And I'm from Augusta, Georgia, so I'm a Georgia girl.
We were joking about my accent coming in and out.
It's because I've lived in a bunch of different places
since i started in twenty thirteen with a media and
journalism career. But I'm so glad to be on this
amazing platform again.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
We're so glad you were on. I know we Andy
and I have had like a little dream list of
people we wanted back on the show. Were on the show,
and you're on my list, and I'm like, it's finally happening.
As I told you previously, I'm a little intimidated, and
as most of our listeners know, when I get intimidated,
I start stuttering or talking very fast. So go ahead
and put that as a warning to everyone listening as

(02:32):
well as to you. Okay, I'm very professional I'm very
professional obviously, but you and I went to UGA as well,
so you and our alums in that as well, And
as I was reading parts of your book, I was like, oh,
this is very familiar. Really okay, you're speaking about East
Point and it's speaking about Uga, and I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, okay,

(02:52):
I kind of get this.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yes, I mean Uga, what a time.

Speaker 4 (02:58):
So yeah. I went to school at the University of Georgia,
studied journalism and had a minor women's studies, picked that
up along the way. And it's so funny that my
uncovering of my feminism happened at college alongside my coming
into my womanhood as a transperson. So it's interesting. I mean,

(03:22):
I really had kind of these teachers that were phenomenal.
I mean it was folks like doctor Nicole Ray, Cecilia
Hurlez at the University of Georgia, Blaize.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Parker, so many more.

Speaker 4 (03:38):
And then I also on the journalism side, had these
phenomenal black women writers like the late Valerie Boyd unfortunately
she passed last year, and Cynthia Tucker of Atlanta Journal
Constitution fame. So I was surrounded by like a crew
of baddies if I must say so myself.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
In person, but then through the written word.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
I mean, it was black feminists like Patricia Hills Collins,
it was Angela Davis, it was Belle Hooks. It was
trans writers and scholars like Susan Striker and Julia Serrano
of Whipping Girl fame, who really gave me a lens
around my experience as a trans woman. So I was like, well, yoped,

(04:25):
I guess at that time to understand systems of oppression.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, which is amazing, because I will say when I
started that story with you, I was like a little nervous, because, Uga,
you can go either way. You could have some of
the best experiences, you can have some of the worst experiences.
It's an up and down of whether or not you
find your crew, and it can be a hit and mess,
especially in a southern university that is dated with a

(04:51):
lot of unfortunate history, but good history, but changes as well.
So I was like, yes, okay, good.

Speaker 4 (04:58):
Yeah, But you know, I think that's the story of
the South right. It is like so often we talk
about the struggle, but we forget that so much of
the resilience and the resistance is also.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
A part of that story.

Speaker 4 (05:11):
And actually we should elevate that maybe more than some
of the struggles that happen.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
So yeah, I feel you.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, I love that, And you've touched on so many
things that I want to come back and talk about.
But I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves here.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
I'm the one that often does that.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
So we do that too.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
You're right with those get very excited.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yes, we received a copy of your book that covers beautiful.
I want to talk about that in a second.

Speaker 4 (05:42):
Two.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
The writing is beautiful. You do such a good job
of like showcasing kind of the arc of your life
from the South and then everything else that you've done since. Then,
Can you tell us and the listeners what the book
is about.

Speaker 4 (05:58):
Yeah, So the risk it takes to bloom on life
and liberation is, like you said, Annie, it's about my
experience growing up in the.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
South with a lot of traditionalism.

Speaker 4 (06:10):
I come from a very kind of classic black Southern family,
middle class, so there was also that component. But we
were also very Catholic, I mean devout Catholic, set in
the front pew every Sunday, ugh, all of that.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
So it was a.

Speaker 4 (06:30):
Lot of wading through these expectations of who I was
supposed to be, and so I talked very candidly about
my relationship with my father, who.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
Was very loving and very very.

Speaker 4 (06:42):
Much a fixture in my life and also in that love.
So much of it was about rearing me in a
certain way to embody, particularly black masculinity, which was not
really in the cards for me. Whether I tried or
didn't try, I was just I was bullied. You know,
it's called so many names, and along the way realized

(07:05):
I was different. And so that's kind of the first
half of the book is like, you get that journey
all the way through what you mentioned Samantha me finding
my trans womanhood in college, and then the kind of
the second big chunk of the book is okay, well,
as a black trans woman, Now, what kind of world
is kind of emerging for me as someone embarking on

(07:28):
a journalism and media career but also has this passion
for social justice.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
Oh and we're straddling the Obama and.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
Trump eras Oh and transmissibility is on the rise. Oh
and the movement for Black Lives is happening. And then
there's this feminist collective awakening happening with the unfortunate ascension
of Donald Trump. So all of that is kind of
packed into the second part of the book.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yes, and it it's a lot. Like I was, wow, girl,
you have done so much, You have been all over
and you're so open with your stories and so sharing
and so vulnerable, like you talk about really what could

(08:20):
be like very painful things. You did say that some
of it was therapeutic, but for instance, you talked about
your coming out to your family and how that sort
of spread and like you started with your immediate family
and then like could later other people. But how how
was that for you? Like how was sharing those stories

(08:41):
for you?

Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (08:42):
Well, I think at this point, you know, maybe a
lot of people, well I won't say a lot, because
there's still a lot of Americans in particular who say
they don't know a trans person.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
But we kind of have this idea of like what.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
Coming out looks like in general or in vice in
as some folks are saying now. But I think people forget,
you know, I think they're like, Okay, well you're thirty two,
why are you writing a memoir?

Speaker 3 (09:08):
Like what have you experienced? And as you said, Addie,
it's been a lot.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
And I'm also an overthinker. So those two put together,
you get a book, you get a memoir. Also, I
think people forget that I was kind of coming into
my career as a black trans woman, like literally two
months before Orange Just a New Black premiered with Laverne Cox,

(09:35):
the amazing who did an amazing conversation for my launch
event in New York, which, oh my god, big moment.
But that premiere two months after I graduated. So I
was already kind of navigating being a black trans woman
in the world before this kind of visibility era started

(09:57):
to take off, and so it was important to kind
of showcase is my personal trajectory within kind of this
change in consciousness collectively around and public education and political
education around trans folks existence. So that's been a thing
I think. Also, I've been blessed to meet so many

(10:21):
empowering folks along the way. I mean, whether it was
LGBCQ students invested in making our campus more habitable at
the University of Georgia, to Black queer and transactivists and
organizers in Atlanta who were fighting against everything from mass
incarceration to police brutality and on and on, to folks

(10:45):
at Transgender Law Center who were working on so many
different initiatives on a national level to make trans folks safe,
on to Working It Out magazine where an amazing group
of folks came together which I was so proud to
be a part of, to kind of shift narratives around.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
The LGBTQ community.

Speaker 4 (11:07):
And so one of the things I think that has
been a feature of so much of my career has
been in spaces with folks invested in showing the breath
of experiences on the margins.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, and you know, as you're speaking of this, obviously
you are a writer. Everything you say has so many
things that you can picture with this. Your book was
very much the same. You are a storyteller. Honestly, it
kind of reminded me a little bit of the Southern
Gothic that I love to read because of the Tales
of Augusta, and you're growing up very southern level of community,

(11:42):
which was familiar in that, Yeah, this is Georgia, this
is this is what Georgia looks like in growing up
with a family that is surrounding you. That sweet tea,
that that description of your dinner at the very beginning,
I was like, yeah, I know that, I know what
she's talking about you know, the puckering up the lips,
from it being so sweet, that whole level. You're an
obvious writer in all of that. As you tell your story,

(12:05):
How did this process go for you? Because not only
it is a memoir, but it is a story, it
is a novel in itself. How did you do all
of this writing? What was your thought process as you
were doing it?

Speaker 3 (12:17):
Well, shout out to my therapist.

Speaker 4 (12:20):
Yes, yes, I ended up finding a new therapist during
the process because I kind of had a break between
one that I had a while ago, and we just
had some really important conversations. But I think that that
kind of dovetailed with just kind of the emotional experience

(12:43):
of talking about these stories. I mean, so many of
us get our lives down to talking points, you know,
and so.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
It's like this happened.

Speaker 4 (12:52):
I came out at fourteen as gay to my parents,
and then came out at school, and then found my
transits in college and all this stuff, and that I
was a writer here the small town newspaper, and you know,
and so it's the talking points.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
And I think sometimes getting.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
Our stories down to those little slivers acts as a
shield for us to not dig into the deeper emotions
of like trauma, of like the things that have pushed
us to seek validation in a certain way. I mean,
one of the things that was important to kind of

(13:30):
get a grip on is like, Okay, in this career
that I've built, you know what am I building it for?
And at the heart of some of it, which I've
been unpacking with my therapist, is like I felt like
I had to present myself in a certain package to

(13:51):
make up for those things that made me more.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Marginalize in our society.

Speaker 4 (13:57):
And so I dealt with the expects hetions of you know,
not being able to build this kind of palatable life
that maybe my parents hoped I would have had, and
kind of shattering that and being like, it's okay for
me to exist, but also I don't have to work

(14:18):
and achieve to make up for those things. Those things
are brilliantly beautiful as well. My blackness, my transness, my queerness,
my womanhood, my southernness as well, those are beautiful things
that I don't have to work despite of, right or

(14:39):
in spite of I'm working in this way because of
those things. So that was kind of at the heart
of it. I mean, I had to have hard conversations
with family, with former partners and friends, especially for these
moments where I talk about ten and conflicts, because I

(15:02):
really believe in trying to tell my story in a
way that it didn't infringe on other people's lives, right,
So I also wanted them to be able to have
their stories while I also told my story from my
vantage point, and I wanted that.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
To be clear.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
I love that because we've been talking about that just
being on this podcast. By nature of like, I'll tell
a story and I know, like if it gets up
to my family, oh, you know, I don't know how
that's going to go. I think that's great that you
reached out to people and had those hard conversations because
telling such a story like this so personal.

Speaker 4 (15:44):
And there's power in it, right, Like there's power in
being a storyteller and telling it on this level which
you just spoke to for yourself, right.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
And I had a duty to.

Speaker 4 (16:01):
Not move from a place from that place of heart
and harm and trauma, to not move from a place
of vengeance, right, And which is something that people can
easily do when they have a platform.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
We see it all the time.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yes, yes, we do another thing I really loved because
earlier you were mentioning all of these amazing mentors that
you had, but you also speak about as you were

(16:40):
earlier about like students or organizations are just like being
on like a Yahoo group and finding people that way
and finding mentors that way. And I really loved that
because I do think Samantha and I both grew up
in small towns in the South. I do think like
finding that can be so eye opening of like, oh wait, wait,

(17:05):
this is making so much sense to me. So can
you talk about that kind of the power of finding
your community, of finding these mentors.

Speaker 4 (17:14):
Yeah, Annie, thank you for bringing that up. I mean,
it's so interesting to think about because life just kind
of unfolds sometimes, especially when you're young. But I first
found the LGBTQ community through the computer screen, right, which
is not weird now because of social media and everything,
But in the early two thousands, I mean the internet

(17:38):
was a wilderness, you know, like the rabbit holes you
could go down. There is something that I think younger
folks may not be able to understand.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
But I found community through teen forums.

Speaker 4 (17:53):
Where we would talk about our experiences, whether it was
from puberty and body changes and everything. You know, all
those awkward things we could never talk about in our IRL,
right in real life, as we say, but then also
in Yahoo chatrooms as you said, and in chatrooms on
AOL it's the messenger aim, if you will.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
That was kind of the.

Speaker 4 (18:18):
Experience that I had that helped me understand, Oh, there
are other LGBTQ people out there, and I'm not alone,
and I'm just I'm just different in this context, and
so there are folks I can find.

Speaker 3 (18:33):
So that was a sense of community.

Speaker 4 (18:35):
And then going off to the University of Georgia, as
you said, that was so eye opening because I had
never seen queer and trans people like me who were
so open about it, you know, and so that was beautiful.
I met trans people for the first time really who
were living openly, and that kind of shifted my mindset

(18:59):
as well. Back in Augusta, there were other gay and
by folks, but most of them were in the closet,
or most of them, I guess, didn't wear it on
their sleeve, maybe in the ways that I did, and
I don't think I really did, but I was just
outspoken about it. So yeah, I mean, those early moments

(19:20):
of community were so key, and I think about how
important it is for young people. You know, I young
queer and trans people around the country are facing upwards
of six hundred pieces of anti LGBTQ plus legislation introduced
in the year of twenty twenty three, according to the ACLU.

(19:41):
And the unfortunate thing is like, while we've had this
rise in visibility for particularly trans folks, that also has
made us more of a target to particularly conservative folks.
So we see these politicians, we see a washed up

(20:01):
why fantasy author coming after trans people. We see washed
up comedians coming after trans people. We see washed up
rappers and other folks coming after trans people.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
I think you see the pattern.

Speaker 4 (20:19):
Trans people make the haters relevant again in a way.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
So I say all.

Speaker 4 (20:28):
That to say that I think it's important for young
people across the board, on the margins to have opportunities
to build community because there's a lot of healing that
can come with being surrounded by folks that you can
compare and contrast the notes of your life with.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, I agree so much. I hate Like I've told
this story before, but when I was in seventh grade,
I was like, maybe I'm gay, and then I like
trade to God, like I hope I'm not gay, because
I knew it would mean like and I'm so scared
of it, and I hate that I've felt that way.

(21:05):
And I think that if I had had community of
people like who even knew to the terms, like nobody
even knew the words where I grew up, yeah, that
it would have meant so so much. But you said
something that I wanted to come back to you because
you've spoken about this before. There is there has been
this rise in trans visibility, which is great, but you've

(21:31):
also spoken about how that doesn't necessarily equate to vitality
and that can't be the whole picture. Can you talk
about that?

Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yeah, I mean the visibility piece. I So let's get
to the heart of it, right. There are people who
are like, oh, well, we're always hearing about transpholks. I mean,
I've seen in some comments for interviews I've done this
week where people are like, I'm trans now, and I'm like,
what are you talking about?

Speaker 3 (21:58):
You know?

Speaker 4 (21:58):
And a lot of it is people's anxieties around and
particularly cisioner people, that is, folks who are not trans.
It's their anxieties around not being able to be the
default anymore because now that trans people have articulated our
existence in a way and are empowered to own our stories.

(22:22):
There are people who don't like the fact that they
don't get the cookies of being seen as normal on
that level of identity.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Right.

Speaker 4 (22:32):
We hear the same thing from white supremacists who have
a problem with the diversity efforts, who have a problem
with people of color being main characters in Marvel films
and Disney films. It's because they have a problem with
not being seen as the default, and they don't want
to interrogate that they are complicit in these systems of

(22:54):
oppression that folks on the margins experience. Is I want
to validate your discomfort, because that is real. How you
feel is real, But I will never concede that your
discomfort in any way as someone who is more privileged

(23:17):
on a certain access of oppression, deserves the approach that
you take, and that it deserves the same or equal
billing as the discrimination and the violence that folks in
the margins experience. So when we're talking about trans folks

(23:40):
being visible, it can't just be that you have this
idea that we've got it made because you might see
us on a TV screen or hear us on a
radio or a podcast, or see us in a magazine.
Do you understand that we still have high rates of

(24:03):
incarceration for black trans folks in particular, high rates of
suicidal ideation across the board, regardless.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
Of race, for trans and non binary folks.

Speaker 4 (24:13):
Particularly youth. Do you understand the barriers of healthcare? Oh,
because people are trying to pass legislation to keep young
people and adults from accessing what we call gender firm
and care, which is really just healthcare, you know. So
I think it's important for folks to understand that visibility

(24:36):
is great, but it often presents more issues when the
material conditions have not changed for large swaths of a
community on the margins.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, I think it's kind of funny that and I
say this funny as in sarcastically, that the idea of
just being seen, which is the visibility to exist and
then to have one out of what a thousand other
types of gender ideas be there, and that's the cause
and the focus when it's actuality is like, no, you

(25:10):
just notice this one because it's unusual, which is the
unfortunate part is that it shouldn't be that this is
rare this should just be on that level of the
population like as is in reality, it should be represented.
And yet because it is unique, you are offended by
something that is unique because we don't see enough of it,

(25:30):
which is the conversation in itself that that should be
the what we're focusing on, not the fact that they exist.
It's like, what are you talking about. The reason we're
talking about it is because more and more people are
going after that one small group of population, not even
that small. It's smaller than what you have heard before.
So therefore all the attacks do not. The ratio is

(25:52):
off The amount of the anti trains bills to the
population that just wants to exist doesn't make sense what
it should be against. There should be more antype cis
white men bills, as we see in the statistics of
it all. Should it not? Shouldn't the ratio be equal?
I don't know. I say this as I'm just getting

(26:13):
angry and like just common sense of men.

Speaker 4 (26:15):
No, you're right, I mean, come on from the pulpit,
hunting us preaching.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
But you're you're right though.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
But the funny thing is when on the opposite side,
when folks see groups on the margins getting rights so
to speak. And it's really just protecting because the rights
that we have are rights that are God given.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
If that's what you believe, they should already be a
part of our existence.

Speaker 4 (26:45):
But protections for women, protections for LGBTQ plus folks, protection
for people of color, immigrants, religious minorities, and on folks
who have more power and privilege in a way feel like,
oh well, if those protections are articulated, that means something

(27:07):
is being taken from me. I mean, that's where we
get all of this bs around the great replacement theory
and all of this stuff, right, is that there's this
idea that people are taking your spot as the main character,
particularly of the American story.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
But you still get to be a main character, honey.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
But you have to understand that you have the capacity
to be both a hero and a villain, to be
both an oppressed sore and be oppressed. And that's everyone
across the board. And so who are you going to
be in this moment? Because the information is there.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
Honey, and the information including what you have written, which
as you were talking earlier about gender ideals and the
fact that really people assume something's a norm when actuality
you talked about the fact that we're all gender non
conforming in some way, and I thought about this earlier.

(28:05):
I was like, because I'm not as as girly as
I should be in accordance to what people said girly
should be. And this is one of the reasons I
had to fall out with religion in general, because I
wasn't kind and gracious, like not kind. I'm nice, I'm nice,
but I'm not gentle. I'm not looking to have ten
thousand children. I'm not looking for marriage. I don't need

(28:28):
someone to lead me. I just want I just want
to be just leave me, yes, essentially, and that does
not go in accordance to a lot of the religious
things that I grew up with, which we talked about
so often. But you talk about how this idea that
we're all gender non conforming that is important and why
your book is important for this conversation, can you can

(28:49):
you talk about that but more?

Speaker 4 (28:51):
Yeah, Well, when I talk about gender non conforming, there's
different levels, right, I think in general, you know, we
have to be having a conversation around how gender fells
all of us. Cis hetero patriarchy and its expectations fell
all of us so yes, I'm talking about my experience
as a black trans woman, but it's not so divorced

(29:16):
from what CIS gender men and boys experience around being
told they literally can't cry without their validity being called
into question, or like the color pink, or be affectionate
or soft or sassy, as the girls talk about on
TikTok these days. But then on the other side, of course,

(29:36):
CIS gender women and girls are told exactly what you're saying, Samantha,
that you can't be a strong, brilliant, capable leader, you
can't be independent, you have to have your destiny attached
to the domination of whatever random CIS head man is
beside you. That is a gender failure, like that is

(29:59):
a failure of the CIS hetero patriarchy. And I think
with trans and non binary folks and queer folks and
folks who understand that they are gender non conforming, those
other folks have an opportunity to see us as windows
of possibility in a world where we can all be

(30:20):
a bit freer to like and live and love and
navigate the world in the ways that we all deserve.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
And so that is a piece of it.

Speaker 4 (30:30):
I think also in the book I like to flesh
out as well in terms of how gender racialized gender
experiences play out, right, because there's a way also that
people of color are inherently regarded as the other and
in fact often seen as gender non conforming too. So

(30:53):
one of the experiences that I witnessed in the Movement
for Black Lives was that there was a decentering of
a conversation around particularly patriarchal violence.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
You know.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
So the dominant frame was like, we can talk about
state violence because that is easier, I think, or smoother
conversation to have, because often we can talk about a
white supremacist system, right, the criminal injustice system, and on
and on. But when we're talking about patriarchal violence, well,

(31:27):
now we're throwing in a whole bunch of nuance, right,
because then we have to be able to own that
even as folks on the margins, whether you're black or
indigenous or any other kind of of color, right, that
you also can be an oppressor even within your own
group in that way. And so what does that mean?

(31:50):
And so I try to talk about that. I also love,
of course talking about within feminism, we've had a long
history of schisms and fishers between various factions. I mean
definitely it came to the four in the second wave,
where you know, we're talking about the lavender scare in

(32:11):
the way that lesbians and queer women were sidelined.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
Of course, Black women were sidelined.

Speaker 4 (32:19):
And created their own feminisms, Chicana feminisms, Third World feminisms,
and so much more. But even before that, when we
think about people like Elizabeth Katie Stanton and Susan B. Anthony,
who are harold as you know, white feminists, pioneers and heroines,

(32:43):
they definitely turned their backs on particularly black folks. At
that time. They were in conversation with Frederick Douglas and I. W.
Wells Barnett and so many others, and when it seemed
like it was going to be impossible to get women's
suffrage as soon as they hoped for, because there was

(33:07):
a prioritization of talking about, of course, emancipation from oh
enslavement of Black Americans, they turn their backs on that cause.
And so we have to be able to talk about
even within our progressive spaces, so called progressive spaces, systems

(33:28):
of oppression have played out throughout time and continue to today.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
And you do a great job of breaking that down
in your book, Like, honestly, I have all of these
bullet points I want to ask you about Andre like
we don't have the time. Did you talk about you
have conversations about like dating and stealthy at work, your
experiences and activism, which I do want to come back
to at the end. You do such a great I mean,

(33:52):
go buy the book. Go buy the book and read it.
It did want to discuss because I have it right here.
The cover is so beautiful than you can you tell us?

(34:15):
And you have a great story about the imagery of
it and the title can you tell us about that?

Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah? So the risk it takes to Bloom comes from this.

Speaker 4 (34:24):
Poem that I first heard from uh at the top
of an Alicia Keys album, so the third album that
she released, the Element of Freedom. At the beginning, she
adapts this poem by a woman named Elizabeth Apple from
the Bay Area, and it says, and the day came
when the risk to remain tight in a bud was

(34:46):
more painful than the risk it took to blossom. That
was the original version, and then Alicia Keys remixed it
and said to bloom and I love that idea of
the risk it takes to bloom because I thought.

Speaker 3 (34:58):
Of these moments that I'm chronically.

Speaker 4 (35:01):
In my life where I didn't know what lie on
the other side of being vulnerable and being authentic, whether
it was at fourteen when I was figuring out how
it was going to come out as gay to my parents, or.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
At twenty when I was trying to figure out.

Speaker 4 (35:16):
How it was going to come out as trans to
my family and the world, or what kind of career
I could have after I was so deeply impacted by
the death by suicide of a young trans girl named
Leelah Alcorn in twenty fourteen, and on and on. So
that idea of taking a risk and how that has

(35:40):
played out beautifully throughout my life. I have no regrets
whatsoever for anything, whether it was struggles and difficult times,
moving through those things has allowed me to bloom. And
I know that blooming, of course, is not a one
time thing, just like I say revolution and it is
not a one time thing at the epilogue of the book.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
It's something that we are called to do over and.

Speaker 4 (36:05):
Over again, and I hope that we can be encouraged
to do that by sharing our stories like the ones
I'm trying to share in this book. Now with the image,
I was so proud to be able to bring on
Texas Isaiah, who is a phenomenal photographer who I know
in community, powerful black trans masculine person who is constantly

(36:28):
showing up, has a deep sense of self determination and
autonomy for black trans folks, believes in black trans power
and really hooked me.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
Up with this and I was able to shoot it at.

Speaker 4 (36:42):
A black trans led organization, studio, black Transfems, and the
Arts here in New York. So there's a lot of
power behind the creation of this image and the crew
that came on as well. So many black trans folks
and black clear folks made it possible.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
I love how you described it as a tree of
the magnolia tree from your youth, and like the roots
of it, but also the blooming of it.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (37:08):
So one of the early short stories I tell is
about this magnolia tree in my backyard growing up. It
was our neighbor's tree was kind of reaching over this fence,
and I remember the petals of the flowers being you know,
powdery and fragrant, and these creamy beige petals and the

(37:32):
waxy green leaves, and I remember the sense of joy
and pleasure in seeing these flowers.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
But also this.

Speaker 4 (37:42):
Like lightning boat of fear came came and struck me
because I knew that as someone being raised as a boy,
I was not supposed to like flowers, and so I
was not supposed to want to feel precious or be
beautiful or soft or deserving of affection.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
And so that is a theme that I returned to
throughout the book.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
Yes, another theme that you have throughout the book is
that you write letters to the dead, and that kind
of transitions really well into our next part because you
also are so busy.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
You have a powerm on transition.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
I know, I'm really good. You also have a podcast
coming out, yes, that is called Afterlives the Leileen Polanco Story,
and one of the letters you have in the book
is to Layleen. So can you tell us about this podcast?

Speaker 3 (38:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (38:47):
So, Leyleen Polanco was a twenty seven year old Afro
Latina transgender a woman who died in Riker's custody in
June of twenty nineteen. I first heard about her from
a dear friend and fellow organizer, Elil Cruz, who at
that time was working at the Anti Violence Project in

(39:08):
New York and within days it became clear to me
there was this emerging movement from Eliel's efforts, but also
from the sister of Leileen, Melania Brown, her efforts, and
then of course this vast community that mourned her death.
And it's so important for us to tell this story

(39:30):
because we're having a conversation around state violence that we
often don't discuss and neglect in particular of someone like Leileen.
She had epilepsy and schizophrenia, and so being held in
solitary confinement, which happened after she was already held on
a five hundred dollar bill that her family did not

(39:51):
know about, after already experiencing harassment and arrest around sex
work from New York Police Department officers. She was held
in solitary confinement at a point, and the UN says
that that is torture, and so it's important for us

(40:12):
to grapple with the literal torture that is happening to
folks on the inside, especially black folks, especially trans folks,
especially women, and so Leyleen's story gets at the heart
of the issues with these systems of oppression. But we
also have the opportunity to do something different with this

(40:32):
true crime format that historically has been very exploitative. We
get a chance to flesh out the rich environment that
Layleen came from, whether it was her chosen family including
her mom r Sellis and her brother Solomon, but also

(40:52):
her chosen family. She had a community mother, but she
also had the house of Extravaga, so we get a
bit of the ballroom culture and how that influenced her life.
But we also talk about the legacy that came in
the wake of her death in Rikers custody. So she

(41:13):
became the glue between so many different movements, whether it
was the movement to decriminalize sex work in New York State,
or the movement to halt solitary confinement or to end
bail for folks being held pre trial right in these

(41:34):
harrowing conditions and Rikers, but also around why there's been
so many folks calling to close Rikers Island for years.
So Leyleen is a lightning rod, and her unfortunate death
really galvanized so many folks and led to some changes

(41:55):
to hopefully make it so that there are less folks
dealing with the conditions as she did when she was
still here.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
Well, you've spoke on a lot of things with the podcast,
which is very, very exciting because there's so many questions
to that as you know, I'm sure you know the
things that are happening in Atlanta. Were talking about the
Yeah Cop City and then the reopening of Fulton County Jails,
which was one of the worst jails and honestly Georgian
history with so many problematic issues. So all of these

(42:24):
conversations are so important keeps coming back around. Unfortunately, I
hate that it dies out and has to have something
big to happen again in order to restart this conversation.
But it's so important to have things like this podcast
as a way to start up educational conversations but also
empathetic conversations. And we've talked about how trashy I'm gonna

(42:46):
just say that true crime has become because of the
exploited natures and many of the times they just neglect
the family altogether, or do it without permission, or do
it like in a way that's so poorri Fine, almost
like a fantasy storytelling level that just makes it so
heartbreaking to hear because you know, this is torturing the

(43:08):
families once again. But you do an amazing job from
what we gathered that including the family making sure they
are part of the story, that they're telling their story
as well. Can you kind of talk about how that
was working with a family as well as why it
is important to do it this way.

Speaker 4 (43:25):
Yes, I mean when I was creating the editorial project
that Afterlives the podcast is based on, I was still
an out magazine. But I will say I think that
was one of those moments in my career where my
community organizing background really gave me the tools to hold

(43:48):
court in a way for grieving families like Leyleen's because
I knew that I wanted to make sure that we
did our due diligence, that they were a part of
this project that we were creating, and I was able
to have some beautiful conversations with her sister, be in
community with her sister, get her blessing to elevate her

(44:11):
story because we also don't always see that. You know,
when folks of color, particularly women, are murdered or killed
or die by harrowing means, there have been many cases
where the family was not affirming of them and so
was not invested in folks knowing more about the story
of their slain family. Member much less know more about

(44:34):
them as a trans person who maybe experience the hate.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
Crime, so that was important.

Speaker 4 (44:41):
I think it's also just been key to let people
know that trans folks aren't waiting to be saved, like
we're coming up with the solutions every day along with
our allies, the folks that love us, our comrades, and
on and on and so that's also been something important
for me as well, to elevate the activists, the organizers,

(45:01):
the cultural creators who are trying to shift these dynamics
in their various fields and industries. And I have to
shout out the phenomenal team at iHeartMedia of course, which
we know is fam here, the Outspoken Network, my homie
in this work, Jay Brunson, executive producer for The Outspoken Network,

(45:25):
has really been such a support and encourager, and then
of course the School of Humans group as well, so
we've had a lot of support, a lot of powerful
people making this happen. I also got to shout out
you know who I've been calling my right and left hand,
Dylan Huer amazing producer, and Joey Pat as well.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
I mean, they've just I.

Speaker 4 (45:50):
Mean they are powerhouses, and I just have so much
love for them. And then if I may, I mean, Samantha,
I think your point of around cop City is so key.
We have to be having these conversations around law enforcement,
around the state, violence and brutality that happens. I mean,

(46:14):
we can't talk about cop City without talking about Tortugita,
an amazing non binary activists who was murdered by Georgia
state troopers.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
Last year or earlier this year. It feels like it
was last year, but it was.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
Earlier this year and really shone a light on not
only how trans folks face violence from the state, but
also how indigenous folks face violence from the state. And
I think that that is such a salient thing for
us to be having conversations around the indoctrination that many

(46:51):
of us receive in this idea that our governments or
our states are inherently benevolent.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
And that is not true.

Speaker 4 (47:00):
They are only as benevolent as the leaders we have
in office. And this is completely tied to why we
need a ceasefire, why we all need to be invested
in the liberation of Palestinian folks as well from occupation,
and why folks who think that none of this has
anything to do with them need to come correct and

(47:22):
check again. Because all of the violence and the oppression
in this world and the domination that happens, it's fed
by each other, right, and so we have to be
willing to understand that as well as intersectional feminist right
have to be able to understand that too.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
And that's that whole conversation that this is intersectional. Every
bit of these different points and every bit of these
conflicts are intersectional, and it does affect everything else. Just
recently Coppcity, we've had at least sixty activists being arrested
charged with RICO, which was originally done for honestly, in Atlanta,
it was done for black gangs. Specific is a racist?

(48:02):
Is a racist rhetoric? I've seen it. I worked in
the justices. I worked in the juvenile justice system, was
for It's not pretty. And this is what they're doing,
and it's on a federal level. So what they are
doing is making sure that they are silencing anyone who
are activists literally, environmental activists, literally like all of this level.

(48:23):
It's not just one thing. It's not just because they
don't like cops, that's very clear. And who is being
trained at these cops at these stations actually do affect
what's happening in Gaza and Palestine. So just the intersectional things.

Speaker 4 (48:37):
Well, let's add one more element there, because when we
think about so many of the mass shootings that are happening, right,
especially thinking about this person in Maine recently, he was
someone who had been trained by law enforcement, right, right,
And there's an exchange between Israel and the US around

(48:58):
law enforcement and the the practices that brutalize our people's too.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
I mean, honey, it's deep, it's deep.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
We could talk about School of Americas here in Georgia
as well, and how they trained a lot of Israeli soldiers.
We can talk about that, but we're not gonna on
my social work level.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Don't get me there.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
I can, we're going there, but there's so much necessary.
Your lists and accolades. Girl, you're on all the lists.
Like every time I look up women to talk about,

(49:38):
you're on every single one of them. I'm like, son
of them. Why can't we get her? So again this
is my fantasy. I'm like, yeah, she's on the show.

Speaker 4 (49:46):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
When Joey brought you up, I was like, yes, please immediately,
But like you have done it and seen it all
you have like just ran with uh, the amazing things
you've done in Atlanta alone. Can you kind of talk
about your experience from the beginning of your activism to
where you are today.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
It's a lot, but I'll work on it.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Come on, come on, gave me some story.

Speaker 4 (50:12):
Well Atlanta, you know, Atlanta, I say radicalized me. That
was where I met black, queer and trans community organizers
for the first time who were.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
Very very clear.

Speaker 4 (50:25):
In articulating that they were working on all of these
systems of oppression at once. You didn't have to pick
and choose in some of the ways that I kind
of felt like I had to, especially in college right
I felt like I either had to be in the
LGBTQ student groups or be in the black student groups.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
I couldn't be in both.

Speaker 4 (50:44):
But in Atlanta, people brought it all together, were very
aware of the history of movements. I think about different
groups like Sister Song, which is at the front lines
of reproductive justice efforts. I think about Song, which is
also Southerners on New Ground, which does phenomenal work across

(51:06):
different axes of oppression. But my political home to today
is solutions, not punishments collaborative with the amazing Tony Michelle
Williams at the Helm. Now, when I first met them,
I was an intern, so I would leave my house
stuff works job and then go do community organizing with

(51:29):
solutions not punishments. Collaborative and so we were doing work
around the police profiling of particularly black and brown transsex
workers in Atlanta at that time. Eventually I moved into
doing more national work, which came with working at Transgender
Law Center with some phenomenal folks. I started a project

(51:51):
called Black Trans Circles, which focuses on the healing justice
components for what I consider to be the survivor that
we don't acknowledge, which are the black trans women who
are left behind in communities when a murder happens and
no real interventions are made.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
So that was a powerful project to work on.

Speaker 4 (52:13):
And then of course my activism dovetailed with working at
Out magazine. And I know that folks are like, well,
how right, but they're such an important place for the
cultural organizer, which I think is at the core of
the work that I do. So even in my podcast work,
you know, to be talking about these systems of oppression

(52:35):
that marginalized folks face on this level. That is cultural
organizing for me, because I believe we can get political
education out, we can also galvanize even more folks to
be invested in dismantling some of these systems.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
So that's a lot of my work.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
I consult with Glad and we also do newsroom presentations
and interventions around how to cover LGBTQ issues so that
because we know that our again, our media landscape is
not inherently benevolent. You know, we got the New York
Times out here being a mess on so many different
things as an institution, right, but of course there are

(53:16):
powerful folks even within that institution that are trying to
course correct and keep communities on the margins articulated in
the ways that we deserve. So this is this is
just a snapshot of the work that I do and
have done, and I'm excited for what's next.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
I feel like there's a new era emerging around me.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
You know, I forget you're so young. I say you're
young because you're significantly younger than me. But I'm like, God,
she's done all of this. What have I done? I
may it is good today?

Speaker 3 (53:49):
What do you speak truth? To power every week.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
I talk about my dog a lot. So that's what
I do, you know, That's what.

Speaker 3 (54:00):
That's kind of necessary.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
True speaking of because I think, like, like I said,
my previous field was social work, and I still have
a lot of people a part of it that still
work in that field, as well as I still dabble.
I'll say, come on, but how do you find that
balance of trying to be transparent and sharing your stories

(54:25):
and your experiences to also making sure that your self
you're preserving yourself and your sanity and and your spirit
and your joy as well as protecting the fact that
yes you're willing to share, but you you do not
owe people your story like that balance.

Speaker 4 (54:45):
I mean, I talked about this the other day when
I was in conversation with Laverne Cox.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Not to name drop, but.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
But I was like, everybody you've interviewed with recently, we're like,
oh damn.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
What I know.

Speaker 4 (55:04):
But I mean, I think about this kind of accountability circle.
That's kind of the language I was using that I have,
you know, whether it's my family, my mom, my sister,
and my brother, or my chosen family, my sisters like
Tony Michelle Williams, Risid, my friend Chris Guitarelli and so

(55:24):
many others. Right, they are a part of this circle
that I can just be unruly and messy with right
and kind of be held accountable to my values around authenticity, vulnerability,
showing up for community.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
And on and on.

Speaker 4 (55:43):
So that is key, but it's also healing to be
able to vent about the world. So friendship is so key.
That also has to be at the heart of all
of our feminist discussions as well.

Speaker 3 (55:55):
You know that love isn't.

Speaker 4 (55:57):
Just love is important, you know, It's not necessarily this
like you gotta be a bride kind of thing in
this particular way. Love is so much more than that,
whether it's romantic, whether it's platonic, and on and on.

Speaker 3 (56:12):
You know.

Speaker 4 (56:12):
So I think that that part is key for us
to reclaim as feminists love on our own terms. But
also it's building in space and grace, you know. So
I'm lucky to have a team now who supports me
and making sure I'm not too stretched than even though
I think to other folks, I always am here and

(56:35):
there and everywhere, But I do have my moments to breathe,
I have my moments to nap, CrossFit keeps me grounded.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (56:43):
I'm still sore from the other day, honey. I love
a good walk, I love a good massage, I love
good music. I love good podcasts like Smanty, So.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
I'm building space for that.

Speaker 4 (56:57):
I play Fortnite when I need to do, I do
Fortnight sometimes a call of duty.

Speaker 3 (57:03):
It's a lot, But sometimes.

Speaker 4 (57:07):
I'm excited for the next generation of the Sims because
I still think.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
See you just you, just shaded. I'm sure a segment
of your eyes that's on you.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
That is true that they know none but I do
gage in the story.

Speaker 4 (57:30):
But yeah, so, I mean it's those things, and it's
also just the little boring things, you know, like sometimes
I try to find the ease and laundry when I'm not, like,
you know, short on time, or being able to have
a slow day or be able to go to my
bodega and they know my order, you know. Finding those

(57:51):
little moments of liberation that we can bake into our
everyday lives is so key.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
I love that and that that is one of the
things I love about your work is that you do
You're very open about because I think a lot of
us have anxiety about and we're not on the same
level as you, but about being an activist and when
you're like in that space and people are like constantly
judging you and are you not perfect? And you didn't
do this right or you didn't do that right, and
you've just been very open about that, which I think

(58:18):
is amazing because I feel like that scares people away
from They want to help, they want to do work,
and they should be but they get scared because they
can't be perfect and no one is perfect they are.

Speaker 4 (58:30):
So it's seriously, You're absolutely right. I mean, the perfection
piece is hard for a lot of us. Yeah, but
the beauty is. The beauty is in the hiccups. It's
in the awkwardness. It's in the anxieties. You know. I
love when somebody is like, I'm anxious, like just being

(58:51):
able to name it. Well, it's so it's so refreshing
because we're told to hide those things, you know.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
It is it really is in you mentioned earlier that
you feel like you're like on the precipice of something.
Do you have anything else on the horizon that you're
excited about?

Speaker 3 (59:11):
What else do you want?

Speaker 2 (59:13):
I'm like, no one's perfect, do more stuff.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
We're trying to wait for you to say you're coming
back to Atlanta and hanging with us on the regular.
That's what we really do.

Speaker 3 (59:23):
Have a tour. I do have a tour.

Speaker 4 (59:25):
Do have a tour, have a tour, so please check
me out on the tour. I'm going to several stops
from DC to Atlanta for Athens, Georgia, Gusta, Georgia, Charleston,
South Carolina, Baltimore or Baltimore as I say, Philly, Massachusetts.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
That's almost everywhere. I think I'm blanking on somewhere, but Minneapolis.
There's a lot.

Speaker 4 (59:56):
And then there will be a second leg starting in
January twenty twenty four, so I have a little holiday break.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Your new podcast has just released.

Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
New podcasts, just release after Lives. It's chronicling the story
of Leileen Pilanco and her legacy. It is out on
all platforms and so proud of that. And then there's
another podcast forthcoming called Queer Chronicles in January twenty twenty four,
which will follow the lives of queer and trans youth

(01:00:27):
living in political battleground states in the US.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
So yeah, yeah, and uh, the as we record this,
the first episode of After Lives came out and then
we listened to it and it's so good. Oh, you
did such a good job of like painting very intimate,
empathetic podcasts well like weaving together all of these pieces
and it was really beautiful. So I'm very excited and

(01:00:55):
story but excited to hear.

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
Now it's a lie a lot, but you know, our
our team has been so intentional. Yeah, and I shouted
out some of our producers. I have to shout out
Aaron Edwards and Julia Farlan on the story support. Shout
out Virginia Prescott. So I could go on and on
so many folks. Of course at iHeart No Brown, Michael

(01:01:20):
Alder June on production, Daisy uh Makes Radio as harmonicer
on sound WISEI Murray one of my dear friends from
Movement who acted as composer giving us the soundscapes that really.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
Drew it all together.

Speaker 4 (01:01:39):
So and y'all know this, right, It really is a
collective effort to get out one episode of anything.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
It really is. It really really is. And I'm glad
that as a podcast industry we've moved away from pretending
that it isn't because we kind of used to pretend. Yes,
like we'll just say it was just this person.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Nope.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Yes, well, thank you, thank you, thank you so much
for taking the time for being here. I hope that
we get to see you in Atlanta. You're like our
best friend.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
Oh well, come out.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Checked off my dream list, so thank you for.

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
That, of course, and I'm always here.

Speaker 4 (01:02:19):
Just look over your shoulder, honey, I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
You are welcome back anytime. Where can the good listeners
find you?

Speaker 4 (01:02:29):
Yes, well, you can find out about all of these
projects at Roquelwillis dot com, including the tour, and of
course follow Afterlives dot pod on ig But you can
also just find after Lives wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Yes, and get the book. The book is out now.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
Yes, the book book book is out now.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Yes, the risk it takes to bloom. Go check it out.
It's amazing. Go check out the podcast. It's amazing. You're amazing.
Thanks for coming. We love to have a thank you,
And if you would like to contact us listeners, you
can our emails stephaniemom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You
can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or
on Instagram and TikTok at stuff One never told you

(01:03:11):
We have a tea public store, and we have a
book that you can get wherever you get your books.
Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, our executive
producer Maya, and our contributor Joey, who was the associate
producer on Afterlive. So go check that out. That's another
reason to go check it out. Thank you and thanks
to you for listening stuff I Never told you. Instruction
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you
can check out the iHeart Radio ap Apple podcast or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.