June 13, 2025 • 54 mins
Award-winning activist, writer and podcaster Raquel Willis joins us once again to talk about trans rights, radical defiance and tackling the history and complexity of Marsha P. Johnson in the second season of the podcast Afterlives.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan.
Never told your protective I heard you, and.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yea, we are so excited to welcome back. All Right,
I'm gonna have to list these off, and I know
I'm gonna miss up. Award winning activist, writer, journalist, podcaster,
one of the Times Women of the Year, and friend
of the show obviously, Raquel Willis, welcome back.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Thanks for having me on. It's good to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Congrats are the well deserved, hard earned title of all
the things, but including Times Women of the Year.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Hello, yeah, I mean it's it's been a wild year.
So it's actually interesting because they named me one of
Time's Women of the Year and then like a few
weeks later, we're like, we all someone to name me
to the Time one hundred and I was like, okay, sure,
let's just get it all out of the way this
year and leave nothing for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Nothing for the rest of my life, I know, honestly,
like just the fact that I'm much older than you
and you have all of these accolades, I'm like, I'm
really behind. But also I love being able to say
I know her, so you know it feels like I
won just by being able to do that.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
So thank you for letting me do that as well.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
I mean, you know, these honors are great and amazing,
and I know they add a lot of shine, but
you know they can never capture all of the work
that's happening, right, So Samantha, like, we're going to reframe
this and just say they just got like a little
(01:50):
snippet of amazing folks out there and they're coming back
for you.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Okay, Okay, I'm gonna take that in.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
But just know, yes, I'm really glad to see that
you are getting the flowers while you can, because I
know as part of your journey in podcasting as well
as obviously a journalism, is to talk about those who
didn't get the flowers when they were alive.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
And you've been a very, very busy woman.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So thank you once again for coming on to our show,
our little tiny show. We're so excited to have you
back on. But just in case we have some new listeners,
can you tell them a bit about yourself?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Can I also say I'm thinking and I think I've
been on stuff Mom never told you, like more than
maybe any other podcast because This is like maybe my
third or fourth time being on since every kind of
iteration of it. So shout out to y'all for loving
(02:47):
on your girl and bringing her on.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
But yeah, so I'm rockel Willis.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
I am all of the things that Samantha just said, writer, activists,
a bunch of things. Much of my work focuses on
black trans power and liberation. And I know some folks
are like, oh, okay, well, maybe this has nothing to
do with me, but no, honey, it has everything to
do with you, because I feel like all of our
(03:14):
liberation is bound up in each other, so you know,
through storytelling, through social justice and direct action. I'm always
interested in how we can tell more nuanced, fuller stories
of the lives of people on the margins.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And we absolutely love that and are happy to have
you on anytime. And the last time you were here,
you were talking about your really amazing book is just
absolutely fantastic, and your latest podcast, which you have a
second season coming out now, so what can we expect
(03:55):
in season two?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, well, thank y'all again for having me.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
When I was talking about my memoir The Risk It
Takes to Bloom, What a time that was, What a
tour I had but yees. So we're back with season
two of Afterlives. This series is really all about the
lives and legacies of trans folks that we've lost too
(04:21):
soon to so many different systems, so many different dynamics.
The first season delved into the story of Leilee and Polanco.
So she was a twenty seven year old trans Afro
Latina who died in Riker's custody, and we told her
story through the movements that she inspired.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
She was a part of ballroom culture.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
She was someone who inspired after her death, the fight
for ending solitary confinement in New York, decriminalizing sex work,
and so much more. And so the second season we
were like, Okay, how can we go bigger?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
And we went about as big as.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
You can go and wanting to delve into the life
of Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Johnson.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
So if you don't know who Marsha P. Johnson is,
you know, well, we're going to get you caught up.
She is a movement for mother for the LGBTQ plus movement.
There are a lot of myths and legends about her,
that she was on the ground the nights of the
Stonewall riots, and that she threw the first brick, and
(05:33):
so that there's actually an episode this season where we
kind of unpack that what's true, what's real. But we
also wanted to get into her humanity. And I know
this very well now. I mean, we were just talking
about these time honors, but I think there's a way
that when we start putting people on a pedestal, we
start throwing out these terms like legend and iconic, in
(05:58):
some way we kind of trip them of their complexity
or of their humanity, like we forget that, No, they're
just living and breathing and messy and having, you know,
all types of love and romantic experiences. And so that
was kind of the humanity we wanted to bring back
(06:20):
to Marsia. And I'm so excited for folks to hear
this season.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
You know, when I was listening to the first episode,
that was something that you did talk about a lot
about having to bring back humanity to see her struggle,
to see the beauty in her struggle as well as
beauty in her legend and the things that she did
in her activism.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
And you did a great.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Job in narrating her story in such an empathetic and
again human way. Why do you think this is so
important when it comes to talking about as I would say,
iconic and legendary person as Marsha.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
I think it's important because we get a different kind
of less and when we give that humanity back, you know,
when we put people on these pedestals, I think it
can kind of detach us in a way where we're like, Okay, well,
what is my part in all of this? Because I'm
never going to live up to that, And it's like,
(07:15):
that's not actually what it's about. It's actually about us
giving ourselves grace for our humanity, for the mistakes we
may have made, and also understanding that we can have
major impact simply by living in authenticity.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
And that's one.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Thing that I hope we really kind of drive home
for folks in an effective way with the season.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I love the parts of Marcia's.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Story that I didn't know right, Like I didn't know
much about her family life growing up, that she was
always kind of this eccentric character, that she always had
a love of performance. We got to talk to her
sister Jeanie and her nephew Al who she babysat when
(08:03):
he was a kid, which is like you got babysat
by Marsha P. Johnson, and there's this beautiful story that
they tell about her being a part of this choir.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I won't give all the details, but that she was
never a.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Great singer, but somehow in her charisma, her offbeat singing
made people really feel.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
A sense of warmth and love from her.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
And so I just love like those little anecdotes that
she was always kind of marching to the beat of
her own drum and somehow that brought people in right.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
And I think there's something that we don't talk enough about,
especially when it comes to activists and people who really
were the beginning of movements, is the mental health capacity
and some of the struggles which you hit at Bay beginning.
You were like, Okay, we can't talk about this without acknowledge.
She had some struggles when it came to mental health,
and they're not shameful, but she was never necessarily ashamed
(09:06):
of it either. She just said, this is what it is.
Why I go back and forth, because there's so much
need in trying to open up that level of conversations
that we're not demonizing this at the same time, we're
also not using this as an excuse and I feel
like you're opening this dialogue up in an amazing way.
(09:27):
What can we expect in this level of understanding when
it comes to talking about mental health, especially with Marsha.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the beautiful things
that we get to do in this time is that
we can look back at, say, someone like Marcia who
died over thirty years ago now and look at other
elements of their life and be able to maybe understand
them in ways that people.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
At the time couldn't.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And so we've had a whole revolution and talking about
mental health in the last at least decade that I
think really is beneficial because we can look at Marsha,
who was someone who had moments that she considered to
be breakdowns. She had moments where she was institutionalized due
(10:19):
to her mental health struggles, and there was never any
kind of official diagnosis or anything, which I also think
is beautiful too, because sometimes we don't have to have
that kind of perfect label for it. We can just
understand that the difficulties of life really can make it
impossible for everything to be perfect and flawless and smooth,
(10:43):
and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And even though she had these.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Moments with difficulties around mental health, she still had a
commitment to making the world better, to being a beacon
and a pillar of her community. Was still committed to
being an artist. I mean, she was a person who
performed on stage. I didn't know before we worked on
(11:10):
the series that she was She went to perform out
in London, right, So like she wasn't just performing here
in the States, but like she got to travel internationally,
and so that also just kind of added more of
a dimension to the impact that she had and the
and the large life that she lived.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Oh wow, I didn't realize that she would international either
a whole different I wonder, Oh, I wonder are you
going to be tackling.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Those specific performances outside.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
We will.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Yeah, we have some great deep dives there. I mean, honestly,
hopefully my production team isn't like, girl, you're giving away
too much.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
But you know, that's a hints. We gotta get some
hints while you're here.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
I think that that's just a beautiful thing for folks
to know that Marcia did travel, did have stints and
places outside of New York. She was born in New Jersey, right,
So she wasn't initially a New Yorker. She kind of
became a New Yorker, which I think is kind of
that quintessential story. It is like you leave home for
a lot of folks and go to the big city,
(12:17):
not even just New York. You know, we talk about
Atlanta so much because that's so near and dear to
our hearts, and y'all are based there. But leaving and
going to that big city and trying to figure out
who you are in a different context like that was
also a part of Marcia's story too.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
And just kind of like, going on with the first
episode of the podcast, you say something that feels like
it's both obvious but also not said enough or untold
that trans people have always been here, And I think
that's statement is both small.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
But huge, and.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
It just feels like with the things we learned about Marcia,
because again, she kind of has been put in a box,
like I knew her as and it was recently, like
you were talking about, you know, you didn't know a
lot of history until you got to college or you
you know, for me, honestly was as I was trying
to become a podcaster in this specific field, intersectional feminism,
(13:24):
that I was figuring out all of these historical figures
such as Marcia, and I was like, oh, wow, so
let's talk about Stonewall because I knew of it, but
didn't know much of it. But when it comes to
things like this talking about trans people have always been here.
What makes the statement so important and relevant today?
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Yeah, well, I want to hone in on what you shared.
I mean, I am the first to tell folks like
I didn't know so much about trans experience, you know,
until I was in the thick of it, honey.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
And I think that that's true for a lot of us.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Rights not until you have these moments in life that
kind of push you to expand more, to learn more,
to seek out information, to make sense of what you're absorbing.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
And I grew up in small town Augusta, Georgia.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
You know, so I was also in this context in
the late nineties early two thousands where it was still
very taboo to talk about any type of queerness. I
grew up very Catholic and religious, and so I definitely
was not getting maybe the education I needed around who
(14:36):
I was going to be in the world. And I
think Marcia and the history that's kind of attached to
her like the Stonewall riots, this kind of history of
clear resistance and activism was like a bomb for me,
for someone who felt.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
So different, so othered for so long.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
It felt in a way like coming home spiritually to
this person that now I consider one of my chosen ancestors.
So I think that it was really important to be
candid about that that there's always an opportunity for us
to learn.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
You don't have to feel like you're late to the
ball game.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
I guess, And also in this time, it's important for
us to be clear that trans and gender nonconforming and
non binary folks.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Have always been here.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
You know, we're facing a moment where we have this
authoritarian figure and this regime back in power, and Trump
is really pushing this idea that trans people and intersects
people and anybody with kind of a more marginalized experience,
that we don't exist. You know, we're facing attacks on
(15:50):
all sides, whether it's queer and trans people facing restrictions
around access to healthcare, or it's these DEI discussions right
where they're trying to strip not just queer and trans people,
but folks of color and women from their rightful positions
and their professions and in their careers. So it's important
(16:14):
for us to tell the truth about these marginalized experiences
in this time because that's a part of our radical defiance, right,
we have to defy this idea that we don't exist.
And I think, as a trans person, I just want.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
To be a bridge. You know.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
I know that there are a lot of young trans
people out there who are seeing these attacks and wondering, well.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
What does this mean for them?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
But they need to know that there were folks that
were fighting an even grizzlier and more difficult times, who
were fighting in advance for them, who were loving them
in advance. And I just want to use my work
to be a bridge so that they know that their
footsteps that we can walk in.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That's beautiful. I'm gonna neath that quilted somewhere because that's
I'm just write that down if I forget, because that's
such an amazing concept, and especially with the work that
you do, with the work that you've been doing, and
as loud as you have been for this type of advocacy,
which I feel like with what makes people like you
(17:23):
and Marsha so iconic, I'm gonna use that term in
that because there there is willingness to be that example.
And that's that's such a tough role to play in general,
and especially today as we are navigating such interesting spaces
with but like social media and the Internet and AI
(17:45):
and all of that, Like there's it feels so much
bigger and so sometimes harder to try to dispel some
of the misinformation and mis representation that's out there. So yeah,
I first of all, thank you, and uh I love
I look.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
I love looking up do you. Even though I'm so
much older than you, I'm like.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
I want to be I'm so much older.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I am so much older and I feel it today especially, but.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
But you don't think so.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
But that's one of the beautiful things I think, especially
in like queer and trans community, is that you know,
age is a little different from us because people come
into their identities at different points in life, which means
they come into different information and understandings of the world
at different points in their lives. Right. I mean, I
have people you know who are elder who are like
(18:36):
thanking me, and I'm like, no, no, thank you, because.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
I wouldn't be able to do what I do.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Without the blocks of the foundation that you put down
for me.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I think it's interesting because as many cyclical things that
as we have seen, it feels so disappointing, especially again
with this administration because it's definitely cyclical, but seeing all
of the people who are younger than me doing the
significant work, feeling that hope, this is the hope that
(19:10):
I'm so glad that I continue to learn so much
more through other people and again like the generations after
me and I'm learning from y'all.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
I'm like, yes, I need more of this.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I've been missing out and feeling again, like even with
all the darkest things that we see, feeling all the
fear and seeing the protests and seeing all of the
you know, demonizing of just good people, to see the
goodness in people who are fighting that really does bring
so much hope in this in this time. So yes,
(19:44):
I'm gonna keep talking about how amazing I think you are.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
Because I love it.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
But I also have to talk about the fact that
you brought up something that made me me laugh in
that episode, because any and I have talked about this before,
but you talked about your tumbler I wrote in college,
which reminded me because Aye and I have talked about this.
Speaker 5 (20:04):
I had an old zenga. This is pre tumblr, did.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
You Yeah, I was in high school, but I or
middle in high school, I had a.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, I can't find mine, I think because it shut down.
But anyway, but it made me think of all the
things that I had lost, and I'm like, oh my god,
I kind of wish I could be able to read it,
just to be embarrassed of it myself. But I had
to ask, what made you think of these old posts
and why did you want to.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Share it with listeners? And I'm really glad you did.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
By the way, Well, I have to give so much
love to our production team, I mean, Dylan Hoyer, Joey
pat Julia Furlan, and so many others. Really, this season
wanted to use this as an opportunity to to kind
of get more meta and get more into the process
(20:59):
of what it is like for me to revisit these stories,
and particularly the story of someone I considered it to
be a north Star like Marsha, And so as we
were kind of planning the season, you know, one of
the questions they had for me because it kind of
had to interview me so that we could put more
(21:19):
of myself into the narrative was when did you first
hear about Marcia? And I kind of talked about the
impact of the internet, you know, and thinking about what
I probably read about her first on like a Wikipedia
page in like the late two thousands, but it probably
(21:42):
really wasn't until I made it to college, was studying.
I was in women's studies classes, meeting queer and trans
community in a real way for the first time, and
we were all connecting on Tumblr.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
And Tumblr was like.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
That era where people would throw out social justice warrior
as like a slur, right, So like for those of
us who were in our feminist bag before it really
kind of hit the mainstream in a bigger way, you know, it.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Was it was the trenches out here. You know.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
There were all of these horrible narratives like calling feminists
all like lesbians, as pejorative, or saying that we weren't attractive,
or you know, like or we were completely man hating
in a in a particular way.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Like it was. It was just really grizzly and gnarly
at that time.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
But Tumblr was really one of the few safe spaces,
I guess you could say, on the Internet where we
could gather we could be our want to be woke
selves as much as we wanted to.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
And we could learn, like you could literally learn theory.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
So now we have like TikTok where people are doing
you know these TikTok universities and you know, these series.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Where they're educating folks.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
But a lot of that, for the first time in
a major way, was happening on Tumblr.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
I contend, Oh, I never did get into the Tumblr
like I think I got, Like I said, Zinga was
my thing, and then I did a little bit of
MySpace and that was about the end.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Well, you know, Tumblr was also the platform that really
allowed you to do multiple things at once with media, right,
so it was kind of like ig and Facebook and
the platform formerly known as Twitter, yes, all in one,
so you could kind of do different types of micro blogging,
(23:46):
which was cool.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yes, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Now you know, all of these other platforms have kind
of bitten off of that idea, and you know Ig
has threads now and Twitter has more capabilities with media.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
But the time, it was really Tumblr that was letting
you do it all in one place.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
Was it pre Reddit? That's just a.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Rereddit's been around longer than Tumblr.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Oh really, but I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Actually, I can't remember when Reddit got on my radar.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
I kind of want to say Reddit has been around
at least since the MySpace days, and maybe it just
wasn't as big.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Okay, soone not have to look into this later.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, we did do an episode on Reddit, so we
should know this, but I.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Don't think we did a timeline timeline like.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Did you that was departmentalized that episode and I've forgotten.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Okay, I just did a quick google, all right because
right now, and I'm saying it was founded in two
thousand and five. So but you know what I will say,
I don't think Reddit was big as like remember when
there was like Yahoo answers yes, like that's was like
(25:07):
and asked me it was like those were big, and
then I feel like, y'ah just like fell off a.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Cliff oh yeah, oh yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Then I guess read it came in and took that space.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Okay, I feel like I'm aging myself in this conversation
as well, So I'm gonna stop this, stop this right now.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
No, You're good, But but you know, it was fun
going back through my Tumblr and kind of seeing in
real time my.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Embrace of my trans identity.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
So I kind of read off some posts where I'm
talking about I just came out to like my mom
and like all these things, and and also figuring out, well,
what is my connection to black trans history and figures
like Marsha in real time? So like you were saying,
you wish you had your zanga like Tumblr and so
(26:00):
far back that I don't have it, Like I never
completely deleted it.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
I just kind of shut like locked it down.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I'm grateful that you didn't delete it, because hearing you
read off those posts were amazing. I was like, yes,
I remember this like ideal, like when you go back
to seeing what you wrote and you're like what, But
at the same time, yes, I was really profound.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Yeah, give yourself credit.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Well, if you could, what is something you would tell
that Tumblr writing baby self today?
Speaker 4 (26:29):
What would I tell myself? You know, I look back
and sometimes I'm like, do I get less fearless the
old draget or do I get more fearless Because I
just look back at moments and I'm like, girl, that
was brave. I guess I would just encourage myself. I
(26:51):
would just be like, keep going, listen to that inner voice.
It's not gonna stare you wrong, And that's kind of
what I would tell myself at various points throughout my life.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
It's like, just keep.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Listening to your convictions, listening to your heart, because that's
where your values are.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Well. Going back to the podcast, as we've been talking about,
you have some really amazing interviews and clips of Marcia
as well as amazing stories from friends of hers. What
was the response from the people you worked with when
you told them about this podcast.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Yeah, I mean I think that they.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Were overwhelmingly excited for the opportunity to elevate Marcia's story,
but also like in a format that allowed them to
talk about the nuances. You know, Marcia had a very
complex existence, which I think is true for a lot
(27:59):
of transpher so, but especially in that time, the language
was so different. You know, she used different identifiers at
different points throughout her life. There were points where she
was having a medical transition, and then there were points
where she didn't have access to the medical part of
(28:21):
her transition anymore, and so there are people who use
more masculine pronouns for her, so that was interesting. But
everyone called her Marsha, So you know, there was kind
of this understanding that it was clear she was moving
through the world as Marcia.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
I think people's understanding.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Of who she was really had to shift as society shifted,
and so I think that that was an interesting dynamic
in talking to friends and people who knew her during
her lifetime, was that it didn't seem like she was
a stickler about how they referred to her except.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
The name, So that was cool.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
I think folks also just wanted to be clear that, like, yes,
Marcia has been fashioned into this icon and in some
ways she was a legend when she was alive because
people didn't know about her presence and.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Action within the Sonewall Riots, but.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
She largely wasn't supported materially in that time. She dealt
with a lot of barriers to housing at different points
in her life, not including kind of her growing up
with her origin family and then kind of the last
decade where she was roommates with her friend Randy Wicker,
(29:50):
but she dealt with houselessness at various points. She engaged
in sex work as a means of survival for arge
chunks of her life. So you know, it's interesting and
I think we kind of hold that tension of like
she was this very important and sherished figure. And also
(30:12):
there were just huge chunks of her life where her
living conditions were precarious, and so how does that happen?
And I think that we still see that today, right,
Like I know plenty of particularly black trans folks who
are highly visible but also are struggling with material conditions,
(30:36):
you know, because visibility doesn't necessarily mean vitality. It doesn't
mean that your leadership may be respected, for instance, in
the nonprofit space or even in the corporate space. Right,
So those things are interesting, But I love how we
kind of.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Thread those needles.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
I think we do a good job ofind of talking
about that tension and that complexity.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
You, yes, absolutely, And I do love that. I love
painting the full picture of someone that so many of
us learn about in maybe just a snippet in a
history book if we're lucky, until we do get to
college or something like that. And it is I love
that you're bringing in this sort of you know, she
(31:24):
sings and it's not well or but she's very enthusiastic
and that endears people to her. These facets of her,
and you've already given us so much. We don't want
(31:47):
to make your producers angry at you, But is there
something else that you think you can tease that listeners
might be surprised at a learning about this kind of
legendary figure this season.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Well, you know, one of the things that's really key
in the story, and that was like a big goal
for our production.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Was to tell a.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
Essentially a black trans history of the HIV AIDS crisis
in which Marshall lived threw. And so I think that
we get to do something unique because when I think
about the HIV AIDS crisis, I didn't really have many
stories of how trans people were impacted by it or
(32:40):
survived it. You know, even of the elders that I
do know now, many of them, their heyday was like
really in the nineties, right or even the late eighties,
and so you don't really get that glimpse into what
it was like when the epidemic really kind of popped
(33:01):
off in the early eighties. So I love that we
get a chance to kind of add a new dimension
to the HIV AIDS crisis, and we get to talk
about how Marcia continue to be a pillar of community
in that time. You know, she was losing friends left
and right like everyone else, and we learned that she
(33:25):
was a caretaker in that time, and so that's kind
of this beautiful narrative that we get. And I also
want to add that we get to have some really deep,
robust interviews with Tourmaline, who is the official biographer of Marsha.
Now she just released the first definitive biography on Marsha
(33:48):
called The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Johnson, and so we got to kind of.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
Lean on her scholarship in a beautiful way and also
in view her a few times. So I'm so excited
for us to kind of hear from Tourmaline about what
the experience was like, kind of uncovering a lot of this.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yes, that is so exciting, and that kind of relates
to the next question. You've spoken about how learning about
Marcia was so impactful for you when you were doing
this podcast this season. What are some lessons that you
learned personally through your research and learning more about Marsha's life.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Well, it's interesting, you know, one thing I knew, but
like this has been another lesson in is the importance
of us preserving stories and if it's not our own,
of people that we love and care about, and and
(35:02):
a lot of the archival material we had access to
was material captured on video by her roommate Randy Wicker,
who was an activist in his own right and actually
was the first openly gay person to appear on television essentially,
(35:23):
and also I think on radio to like tell history
on radio, and this was kind of like the era
right before Marsha's era.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
But this whole process was just.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
Another lesson in the importance of safeguarding and protecting our stories,
because we wouldn't have been able to tell as rich
and as deep of a story without the work of
people like Randy Wicker, Michael Casino, and even a lot
of the archives we were able to lean on, like
(35:59):
one archives at USC libraries in California and so many more.
So we've got to do that work, especially in this time.
I mean, one of the things that we know about
fascism is that.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
They come after narratives.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
So that's why we've been seeing these curricula bands and
these book bands over the last few years increase. We've
been seeing a deep connection between what happened in Nazi Germany,
right where they burned books that were all and materials
(36:41):
and research that was all about queerness and transness produced
by Magnus Hirschfeld and his Institute of Sexology.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
So that is an important lesson that I.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
Hope people can kind of take away, is that we've
got to safeguard, defend, and protect our stories for posterity.
Speaker 5 (37:02):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
I mean, that's definitely something we talk about on a
constant basis when we talk about historical figures and calling
them first or calling them, you know, giving the title
the first woman to do this, for first Black women
to do this, and understanding that this is.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
What we found.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
But because we do know how ugly white supremacy is
and how they'd love to stamp out all of this
history of marginalized people in general, and why it's so
important that there are records and people are telling these stories.
And it's such a beautiful thing when you do get
(37:37):
to actually understand who who paved this movement. I think
about the fact that when you were talking about Marcia
and you were giving bits and pieces of her interviews
or her conversations with her friends, and she talked about
how powerful the black and brown trans gay community could
be if they just came together, and how big of
(37:58):
a movement they really could have thinking about that. I
was like, man, she really is defining intersectionality before that
word even came out in such a way that she's
just simply saying, we have this power because we understand
the needs for the most marginalized. And it's like boom
in episode one, you already jump onto this conversation, and
(38:21):
I just think about all of her work and advocacy
with that kind of just general general conversation she's just
having with one person or a few people. But of
course looking back and like seeing all that progress she
was saying all that amazing statement. Today we're back with
an administration that we really are actually trying to put
(38:42):
so much setback in this progress. So I want to
I want to connect your studies and research and ask
what do you think Martial's words would be or thoughts
would be to her community as they continue with her activism,
with this activism, with your activism to day.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
Yeah, well, I want to add another dynamic because I
actually think, you know, when we're talking about Marcia, when
she's talking about us coming together and understanding how our
struggles are bound together, she largely wasn't you know, just
talking to black and brown trans people. I mean, in
(39:22):
that time, it really was Marcia and Sylvia talking to
a lot of white CIS gay people and saying, hey,
trans people have been here since the beginning, and you know,
I think the unspoken thing is like, actually, trans folks,
gender non conforming folks, drag folks, or as they would say.
(39:47):
At the time, there were all these different categories of
people considered queens, right, so street queens, scare queens, all
of that, but also the sex workers, the people who
were most at risk of being arrested. We're the backbone
of the movement, and we're the ones who were the
most willing.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
To try and hold.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Power as we know it accountable, you know, like they
were the first ones to really push back against the
New York Police Department during the Stonewall riots.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
And I think that that is still true today.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
You know, we still have this kind of eternal queer
struggle around, and not just in the queer community, but
I think it's very pronounced in our community between assimilation
and kind of radical authenticity, because there's this idea, well,
if we just soften our edges, if we just silence ourselves,
(40:49):
if we just kind of push away the folks who
are considered the most disrespectable.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Then we'll get ahead. And that has.
Speaker 4 (41:02):
Never actually worked, you know, it actually just gives permission
for more discrimination.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Down the way.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
And I think about that quote, right, it's like if
they didn't comfort it, it's like if they didn't come
for you in the morning, they'll come for you at night,
or something like that. I think that that's true and
we have to remember that. And I think that that's
at the heart of what Marcia was really trying to
get people to understand.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Was that we're all on the chopping block.
Speaker 4 (41:33):
If anybody's on the chopping block, right, that kind of
in her own way kingism, you know, mlka, right, that
kind of idea of injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. I
think she and Sylvia were sounding that alarm in their
own ways. And then I think the other piece from
(41:55):
Marcia's that despite the struggles, you still deserve joy and
beauty and Tourmaline talks about this so so definitely. You
(42:16):
know that there's such a through line of pleasure in
Marsha's life, even without all of the things that we
often kind of associate with pleasure, like she still lived
in abundance.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
I love that A lot of times when we have
activists on here, like you, we talk about you people. Yeah, yeah,
(42:57):
we talk about things like burnout are things like, you know,
not taking care of yourself or feeling like you can't
have that joy or feeling like you can't take that
space for yourself, and how that actually ultimately kind of
takes you out of the whole thing because your body
(43:17):
is just like, oh, you can't do this anymore.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
So, as a leader in activism yourself, as someone who's
been in activism for a while, what is some advice
that you might have for up and coming activists who
are fighting for liberation today.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:41):
It's funny because I don't think that I'm always good.
I think that it's cyclical for me, Like I have
periods where I'm better about my self care and periods
where I'm just kind of in the thick of it
and just like we got to just keep going.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
And that's kind of the mode that I'm in right now.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
So I honestly don't feel like I'm in any position
to advise anyone, but I do think it's important for
us to prioritize our health as much as possible, you know,
when and if you can eat well and also understand that,
(44:25):
like your relationships have their own kind of meters of healthiness, right, So.
Speaker 3 (44:33):
Making sure that like.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
You're able to show up for the people closest to
you and also ask of them to show up for
you and figure out what those ways look like. I
think rest is important. I think we have a backlash
right now against rest. People are like, don't say rest
(44:57):
is a radical act and revolution andary.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
And actually there was this post.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
By Immani barbaran amazing disability rights activists, who was saying,
you know.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Yeah, actually self care and rest.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
Is radical and this is why, and really was talking
about the history of it that it really kind of
came from Audrey Lord and her cancer journals where she
was kind of talking about the importance of rest as
self preservation so that you can keep going, so that
(45:38):
you can keep fighting, so that you can keep living
the full life that you deserve. And so what I
take away from that is that you know, if you
don't sit yourself down, your body is going to do
it for you. So what are the ways that we
can intervene before we get to that critical point? And
(46:01):
then also I think there's always a collective lesson as
well is that, you know, if you want to have
a commitment to your community and to others, you have
to figure out how to preserve yourself so that you
can continue to be in.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Right relationship with everyone else.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
Right, So there is like a duty of self care
to the collective, not just to you as an individual.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yes, that's a great answer, because Samantha and I are
both struggling with our bodies. Basically told us to sit.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Down, let us think it for a minute, because I
want to push back a little bit finde.
Speaker 4 (46:51):
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting. We have such an
emphasis on how do we keep looking young?
Speaker 3 (47:02):
Right, and.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
You know what, what would it mean for us to
actually focus more on how do we keep feeling young
and able to do the things that bring us joy
for as long.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
As possible, thinking our bodies for actually carrying us this
far right. So obviously you just said you're in active mode,
So we know you're a multitasker with lots of things,
things that you're juggling. What are some things we can
look forward to from you in the future outside of
just this, not just obviously including this podcast the shade.
Speaker 5 (47:44):
You know, I'm just saying you.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Should self care, but you've got stuff giving it.
Speaker 4 (47:52):
Well, I am a co founder of an organization, gender
liberation movement, So we are doing a lot of work
right now around narrative power and direct action in this time.
And funny enough, you know we're talking about healthcare and
self care and bodies. You know, one of our biggest
values is bodily autonomy, and so we've been doing a
(48:14):
lot of work within that realm to get folks to
understand the connection between the fight for.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
Reproductive justice and access to.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
Abortion and the fight for gender firming care, because we
need a mass movement that understands that we all deserve
bodily autonomy and for it to be protected and defended.
So that's a lot of our work right now. We've
(48:44):
also just working with affirming families trying to shore up
those safeguards as we await a ruling in the US
Vskurmti case, which is at its heart a case about
access to gender firm and care for youth. So there
are a lot of parents and a lot of guardians
(49:05):
and other adults who really want to make sure that
our youth continue to have access to the care that
they deserve. And there are a lot of youth who
want to keep fighting. Honey, Trump does not scare them,
you know, They're like, we know.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
It's risky, but it is what it is.
Speaker 4 (49:26):
We want to be out here on the front lines.
So we've been doing a lot of that work this year.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
So you can.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
Continue to learn more about Genderlib at genderlib dot org
and also follow us on the socials. We're always updating
folks and still writing. You know, I have a few
book ideas in the oven, so stay tuned about that.
Speaker 5 (49:49):
See, I knew you had much more.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Don't act like you're You're not. You weren't ready for that,
because we know you constantly go But with that, so
the last time we kind of already mentioned this, you
already touched on quite a bit. And I'm really glad
you said the word joy because last time we asked
you how you take care of yourself and doing all
this chaos and especially with your book tours. But I
(50:11):
want to ask how have you been able to protect
your piece and what is giving you joy right now?
Speaker 4 (50:16):
Oh, protecting my piece has looked like not being at
the whim of this whiplash inducing news cycle. You know,
I'm paying attention to the top line items and keeping
it moving.
Speaker 3 (50:35):
I am not.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
Delving so deeply in it or letting it consume every
waking moment. I think that's just important for all of
us to remember as we continue to endure this era
of Trump again. So that's a way I'm maintaining my piece.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
Hmmm.
Speaker 4 (50:58):
And then Joy, I mean, I just had a birthday recently,
so Gemini and I got to see Beyonce on my birthday.
So I went to Cowboy Carter had my little cowboy,
my sequin cowboy hat on and a nice little like
red fringe body suit.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
So I really had the best time. It was just
really beautiful.
Speaker 4 (51:27):
And it's also probably month right, So in between the
protesting and the speaking and everything, I'm getting some party.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
In Okay, Okay, okay, you doing some line dancing.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
That's not my ministry, but I support.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
You know.
Speaker 4 (51:49):
The only line dancing I'm doing is maybe at like
my family re union.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
You know, we do our electric slide, We'll do the wobble.
Speaker 5 (51:57):
Okay, you haven't done the fan.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
What's on the phone?
Speaker 4 (52:01):
No, I no, it's not for me.
Speaker 3 (52:07):
It's not another thing. I would not look cute doing it,
but I support.
Speaker 4 (52:14):
You gotta know your limits. That's another way I'm protecting
my piece.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Okay, not I want to see that.
Speaker 5 (52:22):
Oh no, I kind of do what all.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
This kind of feels like if one day somebody is
doing a podcast about you, Raquel, they'll be like, you
wouldn't do the fan blind dancing, the line dancing, no way.
Speaker 4 (52:37):
But I love a fan though, so you know I'll
do a fan but not the fan.
Speaker 5 (52:46):
Not the boots on the ground fan dance. All right,
fair enough.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
Oh, it's always such delight having you here. Thank you
so much for taking the time. We hope to keep
the street going and have you back again.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
Okay, I can't wait to hear about this new book
whatever it may be.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
Pressure. Thanks.
Speaker 4 (53:13):
I mean, I've been doing a lot of freelance writing,
so it's funny the nuggets are out there, so you know,
I guess I'm doing like a Taylor Swift Easter egg
kind of moment.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Let me go. Yeah, I love these kinds of things. Well,
thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Where can
the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (53:37):
Yeah, I mean you can learn about my work.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
Rockelwillis dot com our organization Gender Liberation Movement at genderlib
dot org. Afterlives has a website afterlivespot dot com or
you can just find it wherever you get your amazing podcasts.
As a as a fellow label mate with iHeart Media,
(54:01):
I have to you know, urge you to, you know,
use the iHeart Podcast app.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
But you know wherever you get a podcasts, yes and
the listeners, please go do that. Raquel, You're doing such
amazing work and we always love talking to you. Thank
you for coming on.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
If you would like to contact us, you can. Our
email is hello at stuff Iever Told You dot com.
You can find us on Blue Sky. I'm also a
podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've Never
Told You, prost on YouTube, give a te pap with story,
and we have a book you can get wherever you
get your books. Thanks as always to you our superdu
just Christina or executive producer My and er contributor Joey.
Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I
Never Told You boection my Heart Radio. For more podcast
(54:41):
from my Heart Radio, you can check out the Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast wherever we listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan.
Never told your protective I heard you, and.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yea, we are so excited to welcome back. All Right,
I'm gonna have to list these off, and I know
I'm gonna miss up. Award winning activist, writer, journalist, podcaster,
one of the Times Women of the Year, and friend
of the show obviously, Raquel Willis, welcome back.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Thanks for having me on. It's good to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Congrats are the well deserved, hard earned title of all
the things, but including Times Women of the Year.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Hello, yeah, I mean it's it's been a wild year.
So it's actually interesting because they named me one of
Time's Women of the Year and then like a few
weeks later, we're like, we all someone to name me
to the Time one hundred and I was like, okay, sure,
let's just get it all out of the way this
year and leave nothing for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Nothing for the rest of my life, I know, honestly,
like just the fact that I'm much older than you
and you have all of these accolades, I'm like, I'm
really behind. But also I love being able to say
I know her, so you know it feels like I
won just by being able to do that.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
So thank you for letting me do that as well.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
I mean, you know, these honors are great and amazing,
and I know they add a lot of shine, but
you know they can never capture all of the work
that's happening, right, So Samantha, like, we're going to reframe
this and just say they just got like a little
(01:50):
snippet of amazing folks out there and they're coming back
for you.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Okay, Okay, I'm gonna take that in.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
But just know, yes, I'm really glad to see that
you are getting the flowers while you can, because I
know as part of your journey in podcasting as well
as obviously a journalism, is to talk about those who
didn't get the flowers when they were alive.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
And you've been a very, very busy woman.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So thank you once again for coming on to our show,
our little tiny show. We're so excited to have you
back on. But just in case we have some new listeners,
can you tell them a bit about yourself?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Can I also say I'm thinking and I think I've
been on stuff Mom never told you, like more than
maybe any other podcast because This is like maybe my
third or fourth time being on since every kind of
iteration of it. So shout out to y'all for loving
(02:47):
on your girl and bringing her on.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
But yeah, so I'm rockel Willis.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
I am all of the things that Samantha just said, writer, activists,
a bunch of things. Much of my work focuses on
black trans power and liberation. And I know some folks
are like, oh, okay, well, maybe this has nothing to
do with me, but no, honey, it has everything to
do with you, because I feel like all of our
(03:14):
liberation is bound up in each other, so you know,
through storytelling, through social justice and direct action. I'm always
interested in how we can tell more nuanced, fuller stories
of the lives of people on the margins.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And we absolutely love that and are happy to have
you on anytime. And the last time you were here,
you were talking about your really amazing book is just
absolutely fantastic, and your latest podcast, which you have a
second season coming out now, so what can we expect
(03:55):
in season two?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, well, thank y'all again for having me.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
When I was talking about my memoir The Risk It
Takes to Bloom, What a time that was, What a
tour I had but yees. So we're back with season
two of Afterlives. This series is really all about the
lives and legacies of trans folks that we've lost too
(04:21):
soon to so many different systems, so many different dynamics.
The first season delved into the story of Leilee and Polanco.
So she was a twenty seven year old trans Afro
Latina who died in Riker's custody, and we told her
story through the movements that she inspired.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
She was a part of ballroom culture.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
She was someone who inspired after her death, the fight
for ending solitary confinement in New York, decriminalizing sex work,
and so much more. And so the second season we
were like, Okay, how can we go bigger?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
And we went about as big as.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
You can go and wanting to delve into the life
of Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Johnson.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
So if you don't know who Marsha P. Johnson is,
you know, well, we're going to get you caught up.
She is a movement for mother for the LGBTQ plus movement.
There are a lot of myths and legends about her,
that she was on the ground the nights of the
Stonewall riots, and that she threw the first brick, and
(05:33):
so that there's actually an episode this season where we
kind of unpack that what's true, what's real. But we
also wanted to get into her humanity. And I know
this very well now. I mean, we were just talking
about these time honors, but I think there's a way
that when we start putting people on a pedestal, we
start throwing out these terms like legend and iconic, in
(05:58):
some way we kind of trip them of their complexity
or of their humanity, like we forget that, No, they're
just living and breathing and messy and having, you know,
all types of love and romantic experiences. And so that
was kind of the humanity we wanted to bring back
(06:20):
to Marsia. And I'm so excited for folks to hear
this season.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
You know, when I was listening to the first episode,
that was something that you did talk about a lot
about having to bring back humanity to see her struggle,
to see the beauty in her struggle as well as
beauty in her legend and the things that she did
in her activism.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
And you did a great.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Job in narrating her story in such an empathetic and
again human way. Why do you think this is so
important when it comes to talking about as I would say,
iconic and legendary person as Marsha.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
I think it's important because we get a different kind
of less and when we give that humanity back, you know,
when we put people on these pedestals, I think it
can kind of detach us in a way where we're like, Okay, well,
what is my part in all of this? Because I'm
never going to live up to that, And it's like,
(07:15):
that's not actually what it's about. It's actually about us
giving ourselves grace for our humanity, for the mistakes we
may have made, and also understanding that we can have
major impact simply by living in authenticity.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
And that's one.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Thing that I hope we really kind of drive home
for folks in an effective way with the season.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I love the parts of Marcia's.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Story that I didn't know right, Like I didn't know
much about her family life growing up, that she was
always kind of this eccentric character, that she always had
a love of performance. We got to talk to her
sister Jeanie and her nephew Al who she babysat when
(08:03):
he was a kid, which is like you got babysat
by Marsha P. Johnson, and there's this beautiful story that
they tell about her being a part of this choir.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I won't give all the details, but that she was
never a.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Great singer, but somehow in her charisma, her offbeat singing
made people really feel.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
A sense of warmth and love from her.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
And so I just love like those little anecdotes that
she was always kind of marching to the beat of
her own drum and somehow that brought people in right.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
And I think there's something that we don't talk enough about,
especially when it comes to activists and people who really
were the beginning of movements, is the mental health capacity
and some of the struggles which you hit at Bay beginning.
You were like, Okay, we can't talk about this without acknowledge.
She had some struggles when it came to mental health,
and they're not shameful, but she was never necessarily ashamed
(09:06):
of it either. She just said, this is what it is.
Why I go back and forth, because there's so much
need in trying to open up that level of conversations
that we're not demonizing this at the same time, we're
also not using this as an excuse and I feel
like you're opening this dialogue up in an amazing way.
(09:27):
What can we expect in this level of understanding when
it comes to talking about mental health, especially with Marsha.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the beautiful things
that we get to do in this time is that
we can look back at, say, someone like Marcia who
died over thirty years ago now and look at other
elements of their life and be able to maybe understand
them in ways that people.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
At the time couldn't.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And so we've had a whole revolution and talking about
mental health in the last at least decade that I
think really is beneficial because we can look at Marsha,
who was someone who had moments that she considered to
be breakdowns. She had moments where she was institutionalized due
(10:19):
to her mental health struggles, and there was never any
kind of official diagnosis or anything, which I also think
is beautiful too, because sometimes we don't have to have
that kind of perfect label for it. We can just
understand that the difficulties of life really can make it
impossible for everything to be perfect and flawless and smooth,
(10:43):
and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And even though she had these.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Moments with difficulties around mental health, she still had a
commitment to making the world better, to being a beacon
and a pillar of her community. Was still committed to
being an artist. I mean, she was a person who
performed on stage. I didn't know before we worked on
(11:10):
the series that she was She went to perform out
in London, right, So like she wasn't just performing here
in the States, but like she got to travel internationally,
and so that also just kind of added more of
a dimension to the impact that she had and the
and the large life that she lived.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Oh wow, I didn't realize that she would international either
a whole different I wonder, Oh, I wonder are you
going to be tackling.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Those specific performances outside.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
We will.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Yeah, we have some great deep dives there. I mean, honestly,
hopefully my production team isn't like, girl, you're giving away
too much.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
But you know, that's a hints. We gotta get some
hints while you're here.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
I think that that's just a beautiful thing for folks
to know that Marcia did travel, did have stints and
places outside of New York. She was born in New Jersey, right,
So she wasn't initially a New Yorker. She kind of
became a New Yorker, which I think is kind of
that quintessential story. It is like you leave home for
a lot of folks and go to the big city,
(12:17):
not even just New York. You know, we talk about
Atlanta so much because that's so near and dear to
our hearts, and y'all are based there. But leaving and
going to that big city and trying to figure out
who you are in a different context like that was
also a part of Marcia's story too.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
And just kind of like, going on with the first
episode of the podcast, you say something that feels like
it's both obvious but also not said enough or untold
that trans people have always been here, And I think
that's statement is both small.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
But huge, and.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
It just feels like with the things we learned about Marcia,
because again, she kind of has been put in a box,
like I knew her as and it was recently, like
you were talking about, you know, you didn't know a
lot of history until you got to college or you
you know, for me, honestly was as I was trying
to become a podcaster in this specific field, intersectional feminism,
(13:24):
that I was figuring out all of these historical figures
such as Marcia, and I was like, oh, wow, so
let's talk about Stonewall because I knew of it, but
didn't know much of it. But when it comes to
things like this talking about trans people have always been here.
What makes the statement so important and relevant today?
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Yeah, well, I want to hone in on what you shared.
I mean, I am the first to tell folks like
I didn't know so much about trans experience, you know,
until I was in the thick of it, honey.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
And I think that that's true for a lot of us.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Rights not until you have these moments in life that
kind of push you to expand more, to learn more,
to seek out information, to make sense of what you're absorbing.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
And I grew up in small town Augusta, Georgia.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
You know, so I was also in this context in
the late nineties early two thousands where it was still
very taboo to talk about any type of queerness. I
grew up very Catholic and religious, and so I definitely
was not getting maybe the education I needed around who
(14:36):
I was going to be in the world. And I
think Marcia and the history that's kind of attached to
her like the Stonewall riots, this kind of history of
clear resistance and activism was like a bomb for me,
for someone who felt.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
So different, so othered for so long.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
It felt in a way like coming home spiritually to
this person that now I consider one of my chosen ancestors.
So I think that it was really important to be
candid about that that there's always an opportunity for us
to learn.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
You don't have to feel like you're late to the
ball game.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
I guess, And also in this time, it's important for
us to be clear that trans and gender nonconforming and
non binary folks.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Have always been here.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
You know, we're facing a moment where we have this
authoritarian figure and this regime back in power, and Trump
is really pushing this idea that trans people and intersects
people and anybody with kind of a more marginalized experience,
that we don't exist. You know, we're facing attacks on
(15:50):
all sides, whether it's queer and trans people facing restrictions
around access to healthcare, or it's these DEI discussions right
where they're trying to strip not just queer and trans people,
but folks of color and women from their rightful positions
and their professions and in their careers. So it's important
(16:14):
for us to tell the truth about these marginalized experiences
in this time because that's a part of our radical defiance, right,
we have to defy this idea that we don't exist.
And I think, as a trans person, I just want.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
To be a bridge. You know.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
I know that there are a lot of young trans
people out there who are seeing these attacks and wondering, well.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
What does this mean for them?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
But they need to know that there were folks that
were fighting an even grizzlier and more difficult times, who
were fighting in advance for them, who were loving them
in advance. And I just want to use my work
to be a bridge so that they know that their
footsteps that we can walk in.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That's beautiful. I'm gonna neath that quilted somewhere because that's
I'm just write that down if I forget, because that's
such an amazing concept, and especially with the work that
you do, with the work that you've been doing, and
as loud as you have been for this type of advocacy,
which I feel like with what makes people like you
(17:23):
and Marsha so iconic, I'm gonna use that term in
that because there there is willingness to be that example.
And that's that's such a tough role to play in general,
and especially today as we are navigating such interesting spaces
with but like social media and the Internet and AI
(17:45):
and all of that, Like there's it feels so much
bigger and so sometimes harder to try to dispel some
of the misinformation and mis representation that's out there. So yeah,
I first of all, thank you, and uh I love
I look.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
I love looking up do you. Even though I'm so
much older than you, I'm like.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
I want to be I'm so much older.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I am so much older and I feel it today especially, but.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
But you don't think so.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
But that's one of the beautiful things I think, especially
in like queer and trans community, is that you know,
age is a little different from us because people come
into their identities at different points in life, which means
they come into different information and understandings of the world
at different points in their lives. Right. I mean, I
have people you know who are elder who are like
(18:36):
thanking me, and I'm like, no, no, thank you, because.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
I wouldn't be able to do what I do.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Without the blocks of the foundation that you put down
for me.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I think it's interesting because as many cyclical things that
as we have seen, it feels so disappointing, especially again
with this administration because it's definitely cyclical, but seeing all
of the people who are younger than me doing the
significant work, feeling that hope, this is the hope that
(19:10):
I'm so glad that I continue to learn so much
more through other people and again like the generations after
me and I'm learning from y'all.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
I'm like, yes, I need more of this.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I've been missing out and feeling again, like even with
all the darkest things that we see, feeling all the
fear and seeing the protests and seeing all of the
you know, demonizing of just good people, to see the
goodness in people who are fighting that really does bring
so much hope in this in this time. So yes,
(19:44):
I'm gonna keep talking about how amazing I think you are.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
Because I love it.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
But I also have to talk about the fact that
you brought up something that made me me laugh in
that episode, because any and I have talked about this before,
but you talked about your tumbler I wrote in college,
which reminded me because Aye and I have talked about this.
Speaker 5 (20:04):
I had an old zenga. This is pre tumblr, did.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
You Yeah, I was in high school, but I or
middle in high school, I had a.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, I can't find mine, I think because it shut down.
But anyway, but it made me think of all the
things that I had lost, and I'm like, oh my god,
I kind of wish I could be able to read it,
just to be embarrassed of it myself. But I had
to ask, what made you think of these old posts
and why did you want to.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Share it with listeners? And I'm really glad you did.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
By the way, Well, I have to give so much
love to our production team, I mean, Dylan Hoyer, Joey
pat Julia Furlan, and so many others. Really, this season
wanted to use this as an opportunity to to kind
of get more meta and get more into the process
(20:59):
of what it is like for me to revisit these stories,
and particularly the story of someone I considered it to
be a north Star like Marsha, And so as we
were kind of planning the season, you know, one of
the questions they had for me because it kind of
had to interview me so that we could put more
(21:19):
of myself into the narrative was when did you first
hear about Marcia? And I kind of talked about the
impact of the internet, you know, and thinking about what
I probably read about her first on like a Wikipedia
page in like the late two thousands, but it probably
(21:42):
really wasn't until I made it to college, was studying.
I was in women's studies classes, meeting queer and trans
community in a real way for the first time, and
we were all connecting on Tumblr.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
And Tumblr was like.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
That era where people would throw out social justice warrior
as like a slur, right, So like for those of
us who were in our feminist bag before it really
kind of hit the mainstream in a bigger way, you know, it.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Was it was the trenches out here. You know.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
There were all of these horrible narratives like calling feminists
all like lesbians, as pejorative, or saying that we weren't attractive,
or you know, like or we were completely man hating
in a in a particular way.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Like it was. It was just really grizzly and gnarly
at that time.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
But Tumblr was really one of the few safe spaces,
I guess you could say, on the Internet where we
could gather we could be our want to be woke
selves as much as we wanted to.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
And we could learn, like you could literally learn theory.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
So now we have like TikTok where people are doing
you know these TikTok universities and you know, these series.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Where they're educating folks.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
But a lot of that, for the first time in
a major way, was happening on Tumblr.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
I contend, Oh, I never did get into the Tumblr
like I think I got, Like I said, Zinga was
my thing, and then I did a little bit of
MySpace and that was about the end.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Well, you know, Tumblr was also the platform that really
allowed you to do multiple things at once with media, right,
so it was kind of like ig and Facebook and
the platform formerly known as Twitter, yes, all in one,
so you could kind of do different types of micro blogging,
(23:46):
which was cool.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yes, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Now you know, all of these other platforms have kind
of bitten off of that idea, and you know Ig
has threads now and Twitter has more capabilities with media.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
But the time, it was really Tumblr that was letting
you do it all in one place.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
Was it pre Reddit? That's just a.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Rereddit's been around longer than Tumblr.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Oh really, but I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Actually, I can't remember when Reddit got on my radar.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
I kind of want to say Reddit has been around
at least since the MySpace days, and maybe it just
wasn't as big.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Okay, soone not have to look into this later.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, we did do an episode on Reddit, so we
should know this, but I.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Don't think we did a timeline timeline like.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Did you that was departmentalized that episode and I've forgotten.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Okay, I just did a quick google, all right because
right now, and I'm saying it was founded in two
thousand and five. So but you know what I will say,
I don't think Reddit was big as like remember when
there was like Yahoo answers yes, like that's was like
(25:07):
and asked me it was like those were big, and
then I feel like, y'ah just like fell off a.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Cliff oh yeah, oh yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Then I guess read it came in and took that space.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Okay, I feel like I'm aging myself in this conversation
as well, So I'm gonna stop this, stop this right now.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
No, You're good, But but you know, it was fun
going back through my Tumblr and kind of seeing in
real time my.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Embrace of my trans identity.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
So I kind of read off some posts where I'm
talking about I just came out to like my mom
and like all these things, and and also figuring out, well,
what is my connection to black trans history and figures
like Marsha in real time? So like you were saying,
you wish you had your zanga like Tumblr and so
(26:00):
far back that I don't have it, Like I never
completely deleted it.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
I just kind of shut like locked it down.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I'm grateful that you didn't delete it, because hearing you
read off those posts were amazing. I was like, yes,
I remember this like ideal, like when you go back
to seeing what you wrote and you're like what, But
at the same time, yes, I was really profound.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Yeah, give yourself credit.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Well, if you could, what is something you would tell
that Tumblr writing baby self today?
Speaker 4 (26:29):
What would I tell myself? You know, I look back
and sometimes I'm like, do I get less fearless the
old draget or do I get more fearless Because I
just look back at moments and I'm like, girl, that
was brave. I guess I would just encourage myself. I
(26:51):
would just be like, keep going, listen to that inner voice.
It's not gonna stare you wrong, And that's kind of
what I would tell myself at various points throughout my life.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
It's like, just keep.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Listening to your convictions, listening to your heart, because that's
where your values are.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Well. Going back to the podcast, as we've been talking about,
you have some really amazing interviews and clips of Marcia
as well as amazing stories from friends of hers. What
was the response from the people you worked with when
you told them about this podcast.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Yeah, I mean I think that they.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Were overwhelmingly excited for the opportunity to elevate Marcia's story,
but also like in a format that allowed them to
talk about the nuances. You know, Marcia had a very
complex existence, which I think is true for a lot
(27:59):
of transpher so, but especially in that time, the language
was so different. You know, she used different identifiers at
different points throughout her life. There were points where she
was having a medical transition, and then there were points
where she didn't have access to the medical part of
(28:21):
her transition anymore, and so there are people who use
more masculine pronouns for her, so that was interesting. But
everyone called her Marsha, So you know, there was kind
of this understanding that it was clear she was moving
through the world as Marcia.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
I think people's understanding.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Of who she was really had to shift as society shifted,
and so I think that that was an interesting dynamic
in talking to friends and people who knew her during
her lifetime, was that it didn't seem like she was
a stickler about how they referred to her except.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
The name, So that was cool.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
I think folks also just wanted to be clear that, like, yes,
Marcia has been fashioned into this icon and in some
ways she was a legend when she was alive because
people didn't know about her presence and.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Action within the Sonewall Riots, but.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
She largely wasn't supported materially in that time. She dealt
with a lot of barriers to housing at different points
in her life, not including kind of her growing up
with her origin family and then kind of the last
decade where she was roommates with her friend Randy Wicker,
(29:50):
but she dealt with houselessness at various points. She engaged
in sex work as a means of survival for arge
chunks of her life. So you know, it's interesting and
I think we kind of hold that tension of like
she was this very important and sherished figure. And also
(30:12):
there were just huge chunks of her life where her
living conditions were precarious, and so how does that happen?
And I think that we still see that today, right,
Like I know plenty of particularly black trans folks who
are highly visible but also are struggling with material conditions,
(30:36):
you know, because visibility doesn't necessarily mean vitality. It doesn't
mean that your leadership may be respected, for instance, in
the nonprofit space or even in the corporate space. Right,
So those things are interesting, But I love how we
kind of.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Thread those needles.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
I think we do a good job ofind of talking
about that tension and that complexity.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
You, yes, absolutely, And I do love that. I love
painting the full picture of someone that so many of
us learn about in maybe just a snippet in a
history book if we're lucky, until we do get to
college or something like that. And it is I love
that you're bringing in this sort of you know, she
(31:24):
sings and it's not well or but she's very enthusiastic
and that endears people to her. These facets of her,
and you've already given us so much. We don't want
(31:47):
to make your producers angry at you, But is there
something else that you think you can tease that listeners
might be surprised at a learning about this kind of
legendary figure this season.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Well, you know, one of the things that's really key
in the story, and that was like a big goal
for our production.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Was to tell a.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
Essentially a black trans history of the HIV AIDS crisis
in which Marshall lived threw. And so I think that
we get to do something unique because when I think
about the HIV AIDS crisis, I didn't really have many
stories of how trans people were impacted by it or
(32:40):
survived it. You know, even of the elders that I
do know now, many of them, their heyday was like
really in the nineties, right or even the late eighties,
and so you don't really get that glimpse into what
it was like when the epidemic really kind of popped
(33:01):
off in the early eighties. So I love that we
get a chance to kind of add a new dimension
to the HIV AIDS crisis, and we get to talk
about how Marcia continue to be a pillar of community
in that time. You know, she was losing friends left
and right like everyone else, and we learned that she
(33:25):
was a caretaker in that time, and so that's kind
of this beautiful narrative that we get. And I also
want to add that we get to have some really deep,
robust interviews with Tourmaline, who is the official biographer of Marsha.
Now she just released the first definitive biography on Marsha
(33:48):
called The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Johnson, and so we got to kind of.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
Lean on her scholarship in a beautiful way and also
in view her a few times. So I'm so excited
for us to kind of hear from Tourmaline about what
the experience was like, kind of uncovering a lot of this.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yes, that is so exciting, and that kind of relates
to the next question. You've spoken about how learning about
Marcia was so impactful for you when you were doing
this podcast this season. What are some lessons that you
learned personally through your research and learning more about Marsha's life.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Well, it's interesting, you know, one thing I knew, but
like this has been another lesson in is the importance
of us preserving stories and if it's not our own,
of people that we love and care about, and and
(35:02):
a lot of the archival material we had access to
was material captured on video by her roommate Randy Wicker,
who was an activist in his own right and actually
was the first openly gay person to appear on television essentially,
(35:23):
and also I think on radio to like tell history
on radio, and this was kind of like the era
right before Marsha's era.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
But this whole process was just.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
Another lesson in the importance of safeguarding and protecting our stories,
because we wouldn't have been able to tell as rich
and as deep of a story without the work of
people like Randy Wicker, Michael Casino, and even a lot
of the archives we were able to lean on, like
(35:59):
one archives at USC libraries in California and so many more.
So we've got to do that work, especially in this time.
I mean, one of the things that we know about
fascism is that.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
They come after narratives.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
So that's why we've been seeing these curricula bands and
these book bands over the last few years increase. We've
been seeing a deep connection between what happened in Nazi Germany,
right where they burned books that were all and materials
(36:41):
and research that was all about queerness and transness produced
by Magnus Hirschfeld and his Institute of Sexology.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
So that is an important lesson that I.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
Hope people can kind of take away, is that we've
got to safeguard, defend, and protect our stories for posterity.
Speaker 5 (37:02):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
I mean, that's definitely something we talk about on a
constant basis when we talk about historical figures and calling
them first or calling them, you know, giving the title
the first woman to do this, for first Black women
to do this, and understanding that this is.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
What we found.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
But because we do know how ugly white supremacy is
and how they'd love to stamp out all of this
history of marginalized people in general, and why it's so
important that there are records and people are telling these stories.
And it's such a beautiful thing when you do get
(37:37):
to actually understand who who paved this movement. I think
about the fact that when you were talking about Marcia
and you were giving bits and pieces of her interviews
or her conversations with her friends, and she talked about
how powerful the black and brown trans gay community could
be if they just came together, and how big of
(37:58):
a movement they really could have thinking about that. I
was like, man, she really is defining intersectionality before that
word even came out in such a way that she's
just simply saying, we have this power because we understand
the needs for the most marginalized. And it's like boom
in episode one, you already jump onto this conversation, and
(38:21):
I just think about all of her work and advocacy
with that kind of just general general conversation she's just
having with one person or a few people. But of
course looking back and like seeing all that progress she
was saying all that amazing statement. Today we're back with
an administration that we really are actually trying to put
(38:42):
so much setback in this progress. So I want to
I want to connect your studies and research and ask
what do you think Martial's words would be or thoughts
would be to her community as they continue with her activism,
with this activism, with your activism to day.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
Yeah, well, I want to add another dynamic because I
actually think, you know, when we're talking about Marcia, when
she's talking about us coming together and understanding how our
struggles are bound together, she largely wasn't you know, just
talking to black and brown trans people. I mean, in
(39:22):
that time, it really was Marcia and Sylvia talking to
a lot of white CIS gay people and saying, hey,
trans people have been here since the beginning, and you know,
I think the unspoken thing is like, actually, trans folks,
gender non conforming folks, drag folks, or as they would say.
(39:47):
At the time, there were all these different categories of
people considered queens, right, so street queens, scare queens, all
of that, but also the sex workers, the people who
were most at risk of being arrested. We're the backbone
of the movement, and we're the ones who were the
most willing.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
To try and hold.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Power as we know it accountable, you know, like they
were the first ones to really push back against the
New York Police Department during the Stonewall riots.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
And I think that that is still true today.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
You know, we still have this kind of eternal queer
struggle around, and not just in the queer community, but
I think it's very pronounced in our community between assimilation
and kind of radical authenticity, because there's this idea, well,
if we just soften our edges, if we just silence ourselves,
(40:49):
if we just kind of push away the folks who
are considered the most disrespectable.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Then we'll get ahead. And that has.
Speaker 4 (41:02):
Never actually worked, you know, it actually just gives permission
for more discrimination.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Down the way.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
And I think about that quote, right, it's like if
they didn't comfort it, it's like if they didn't come
for you in the morning, they'll come for you at night,
or something like that. I think that that's true and
we have to remember that. And I think that that's
at the heart of what Marcia was really trying to
get people to understand.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Was that we're all on the chopping block.
Speaker 4 (41:33):
If anybody's on the chopping block, right, that kind of
in her own way kingism, you know, mlka, right, that
kind of idea of injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. I
think she and Sylvia were sounding that alarm in their
own ways. And then I think the other piece from
(41:55):
Marcia's that despite the struggles, you still deserve joy and
beauty and Tourmaline talks about this so so definitely. You
(42:16):
know that there's such a through line of pleasure in
Marsha's life, even without all of the things that we
often kind of associate with pleasure, like she still lived
in abundance.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
I love that A lot of times when we have
activists on here, like you, we talk about you people. Yeah, yeah,
(42:57):
we talk about things like burnout are things like, you know,
not taking care of yourself or feeling like you can't
have that joy or feeling like you can't take that
space for yourself, and how that actually ultimately kind of
takes you out of the whole thing because your body
(43:17):
is just like, oh, you can't do this anymore.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
So, as a leader in activism yourself, as someone who's
been in activism for a while, what is some advice
that you might have for up and coming activists who
are fighting for liberation today.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:41):
It's funny because I don't think that I'm always good.
I think that it's cyclical for me, Like I have
periods where I'm better about my self care and periods
where I'm just kind of in the thick of it
and just like we got to just keep going.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
And that's kind of the mode that I'm in right now.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
So I honestly don't feel like I'm in any position
to advise anyone, but I do think it's important for
us to prioritize our health as much as possible, you know,
when and if you can eat well and also understand that,
(44:25):
like your relationships have their own kind of meters of healthiness, right, So.
Speaker 3 (44:33):
Making sure that like.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
You're able to show up for the people closest to
you and also ask of them to show up for
you and figure out what those ways look like. I
think rest is important. I think we have a backlash
right now against rest. People are like, don't say rest
(44:57):
is a radical act and revolution andary.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
And actually there was this post.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
By Immani barbaran amazing disability rights activists, who was saying,
you know.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Yeah, actually self care and rest.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
Is radical and this is why, and really was talking
about the history of it that it really kind of
came from Audrey Lord and her cancer journals where she
was kind of talking about the importance of rest as
self preservation so that you can keep going, so that
(45:38):
you can keep fighting, so that you can keep living
the full life that you deserve. And so what I
take away from that is that you know, if you
don't sit yourself down, your body is going to do
it for you. So what are the ways that we
can intervene before we get to that critical point? And
(46:01):
then also I think there's always a collective lesson as
well is that, you know, if you want to have
a commitment to your community and to others, you have
to figure out how to preserve yourself so that you
can continue to be in.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Right relationship with everyone else.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
Right, So there is like a duty of self care
to the collective, not just to you as an individual.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yes, that's a great answer, because Samantha and I are
both struggling with our bodies. Basically told us to sit.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Down, let us think it for a minute, because I
want to push back a little bit finde.
Speaker 4 (46:51):
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting. We have such an
emphasis on how do we keep looking young?
Speaker 3 (47:02):
Right, and.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
You know what, what would it mean for us to
actually focus more on how do we keep feeling young
and able to do the things that bring us joy
for as long.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
As possible, thinking our bodies for actually carrying us this
far right. So obviously you just said you're in active mode,
So we know you're a multitasker with lots of things,
things that you're juggling. What are some things we can
look forward to from you in the future outside of
just this, not just obviously including this podcast the shade.
Speaker 5 (47:44):
You know, I'm just saying you.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Should self care, but you've got stuff giving it.
Speaker 4 (47:52):
Well, I am a co founder of an organization, gender
liberation movement, So we are doing a lot of work
right now around narrative power and direct action in this time.
And funny enough, you know we're talking about healthcare and
self care and bodies. You know, one of our biggest
values is bodily autonomy, and so we've been doing a
(48:14):
lot of work within that realm to get folks to
understand the connection between the fight for.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
Reproductive justice and access to.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
Abortion and the fight for gender firming care, because we
need a mass movement that understands that we all deserve
bodily autonomy and for it to be protected and defended.
So that's a lot of our work right now. We've
(48:44):
also just working with affirming families trying to shore up
those safeguards as we await a ruling in the US
Vskurmti case, which is at its heart a case about
access to gender firm and care for youth. So there
are a lot of parents and a lot of guardians
(49:05):
and other adults who really want to make sure that
our youth continue to have access to the care that
they deserve. And there are a lot of youth who
want to keep fighting. Honey, Trump does not scare them,
you know, They're like, we know.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
It's risky, but it is what it is.
Speaker 4 (49:26):
We want to be out here on the front lines.
So we've been doing a lot of that work this year.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
So you can.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
Continue to learn more about Genderlib at genderlib dot org
and also follow us on the socials. We're always updating
folks and still writing. You know, I have a few
book ideas in the oven, so stay tuned about that.
Speaker 5 (49:49):
See, I knew you had much more.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Don't act like you're You're not. You weren't ready for that,
because we know you constantly go But with that, so
the last time we kind of already mentioned this, you
already touched on quite a bit. And I'm really glad
you said the word joy because last time we asked
you how you take care of yourself and doing all
this chaos and especially with your book tours. But I
(50:11):
want to ask how have you been able to protect
your piece and what is giving you joy right now?
Speaker 4 (50:16):
Oh, protecting my piece has looked like not being at
the whim of this whiplash inducing news cycle. You know,
I'm paying attention to the top line items and keeping
it moving.
Speaker 3 (50:35):
I am not.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
Delving so deeply in it or letting it consume every
waking moment. I think that's just important for all of
us to remember as we continue to endure this era
of Trump again. So that's a way I'm maintaining my piece.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
Hmmm.
Speaker 4 (50:58):
And then Joy, I mean, I just had a birthday recently,
so Gemini and I got to see Beyonce on my birthday.
So I went to Cowboy Carter had my little cowboy,
my sequin cowboy hat on and a nice little like
red fringe body suit.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
So I really had the best time. It was just
really beautiful.
Speaker 4 (51:27):
And it's also probably month right, So in between the
protesting and the speaking and everything, I'm getting some party.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
In Okay, Okay, okay, you doing some line dancing.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
That's not my ministry, but I support.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
You know.
Speaker 4 (51:49):
The only line dancing I'm doing is maybe at like
my family re union.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
You know, we do our electric slide, We'll do the wobble.
Speaker 5 (51:57):
Okay, you haven't done the fan.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
What's on the phone?
Speaker 4 (52:01):
No, I no, it's not for me.
Speaker 3 (52:07):
It's not another thing. I would not look cute doing it,
but I support.
Speaker 4 (52:14):
You gotta know your limits. That's another way I'm protecting
my piece.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Okay, not I want to see that.
Speaker 5 (52:22):
Oh no, I kind of do what all.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
This kind of feels like if one day somebody is
doing a podcast about you, Raquel, they'll be like, you
wouldn't do the fan blind dancing, the line dancing, no way.
Speaker 4 (52:37):
But I love a fan though, so you know I'll
do a fan but not the fan.
Speaker 5 (52:46):
Not the boots on the ground fan dance. All right,
fair enough.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
Oh, it's always such delight having you here. Thank you
so much for taking the time. We hope to keep
the street going and have you back again.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
Okay, I can't wait to hear about this new book
whatever it may be.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
Pressure. Thanks.
Speaker 4 (53:13):
I mean, I've been doing a lot of freelance writing,
so it's funny the nuggets are out there, so you know,
I guess I'm doing like a Taylor Swift Easter egg
kind of moment.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Let me go. Yeah, I love these kinds of things. Well,
thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Where can
the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (53:37):
Yeah, I mean you can learn about my work.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
Rockelwillis dot com our organization Gender Liberation Movement at genderlib
dot org. Afterlives has a website afterlivespot dot com or
you can just find it wherever you get your amazing podcasts.
As a as a fellow label mate with iHeart Media,
(54:01):
I have to you know, urge you to, you know,
use the iHeart Podcast app.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
But you know wherever you get a podcasts, yes and
the listeners, please go do that. Raquel, You're doing such
amazing work and we always love talking to you. Thank
you for coming on.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
If you would like to contact us, you can. Our
email is hello at stuff Iever Told You dot com.
You can find us on Blue Sky. I'm also a
podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've Never
Told You, prost on YouTube, give a te pap with story,
and we have a book you can get wherever you
get your books. Thanks as always to you our superdu
just Christina or executive producer My and er contributor Joey.
Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I
Never Told You boection my Heart Radio. For more podcast
(54:41):
from my Heart Radio, you can check out the Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast wherever we listen to your favorite shows,
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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