SMNTY x Techstuff: Cozy Gaming

Recently, we joined forces with Jonathan Strickland of Techstuff to talk cozy gaming, inclusivity, and why these games are important.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm open to stuff I've never told you productive of
by Heart Radio, and today we are starting off the
new year with a guest episode. This might be the
second guest episode or the first one. Either way, we're

(00:27):
doing some episodes where we have guested on other shows
because the new year is a busy time, the holidays
are a busy time. But also this was just a
really great conversation and one that you all know we
like talking about so over on Tech Stuff, Jonathan Strickland,

(00:47):
who has been working on that show for many, many years,
is stepping back from the mic and in that he
wanted to have a bunch of people from the Stuff
Show as we called them around here, the kind of
original house stuffwork shows. And he asked us for a topic,

(01:08):
and we were really scratching our heads to do something
that wasn't completely depressing at the end of the year,
because a lot of stuff and tech is in a
lot of tumult, I will say. And we decided to
go with cozy gaming.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, because we've talked about it a lot. We love
this subject in itself, and he has some really great suggestions.
Though I love getting new suggestions.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yes, it was really cool. As I suspected, we all
had pretty different stories around it and different suggestions. This
conversation went all around, all over the place, and we
didn't even touch on all the points in the outline,
so just it was a great conversation. It was really
cool to hear all these different perspectives and to get
all of these good suggestions. So yes, thank you so

(01:52):
much to Jonathan over at tech Stuff. Thank you to
Tari who is the producer and had to deal with
a lot of technical difficulties on our end, which was
I guess kind of the joke for a show like
tech Stuff, but we came in like, Tari, can you
help us? We struggling, But she's amazing, So thanks to
the both of them so much. But yeah, please enjoy

(02:13):
this episode we did with tech Stuff on Cozy Game.

Speaker 4 (02:21):
Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there,
and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host Jonathan Strickland.
I'm an executive producer with iHeart Podcasts and how the
tech are you? Yes, our cavalcade of special guests continues today.

(02:43):
My dear friend and next door neighbor. Back when we
were working at Pont City Market. Annie and her co
host Samantha from Stuff Mom Never Told You are here.
Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Thank you so much for having us. This is very exciting.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
I love that we finally get to work together.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
It's been years since we've been in the same network,
and now I get to officially work with you.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Amazing. I'm so excited.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
I'm excited too, like I've seen Samanth that we've met
in person a couple of times, but we have never
had a chance to work on a show together. I
will say. I was listening to Stuff Mom Never Told
You recently with I think it was Joey who was
on talking about dating in New York, and it made
me laugh so hard because Joey's younger than my marriage is.

(03:31):
I'm in my twenty eighth year of being married and
so listening to like the trials and tribulations of dating
in the modern age. I was sitting there thinking about
back before I was married and what dating was like.
And the funny thing is I met my partner online,
but it was in a telnet chat room, which anyone

(03:51):
out there who knows what a telnet chat room is
welcome to being old.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
That's amazing. I really kind of want that story.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Now.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
Oh, we'll tell you why you have me on your show,
and I'll tell you all about it. Because here's the thing,
I got no tech stuffs left to talk about this
kind of stuff. I'm out on January tenth. January tenth,
I am gone. And just so, just so y'all know,
I mean, I don't think you even are aware of
who the new hosts are, but certainly my listeners aren't
because I haven't told them yet. That's going to be

(04:22):
a New Year reveal, So it does. Have you not
gotten an email? Oh no, you're starting off with a
Chad GBT savior or demon demon? No you know already.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
H No.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
Today you brought forth a topic that I was so
excited by because, as it you discovered once our notes
started to fill out, it turns out I'm a big
fan of this particular genre of video games. You wanted
to talk about cozy games.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yes, yes, indeed, And I think this is gonna be
really fun because I think we're all coming at this
from different experiences, so we're really excited to talk about it.
One of the reasons we wanted to talk about it
is one because Samantha's had like an amazing cozy game journey,
but too. As you kind of alluded to with chat GPT,

(05:21):
we were trying to think of a tech topic that
wasn't going to be very depressing, and it was a
little difficult because right now is a high stress time
a lot of us maybe are looking for some relief,
especially as the year comes to a close. So we
thought cozy gaming, that's that's a good topic.

Speaker 4 (05:38):
Much better than let's talk about Elon Musk. So I
appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (05:44):
Right, I mean, we definitely went in to talk about
we could talk about de fakes, oh no, that's really sad.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
We could talk about, you know, all those other AI ventures.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
But coming back to cozy games, which is something that
I have found joy in in the last few years
and really have had Annie and even our super produce
Christina navigate me through this world because gaming is not
something that I would typically would say is something that
I do up until recently, and the cozy gaming world
really has made it so much more welcoming, I think,

(06:15):
especially for people, for marginalized people who are jumping into
gaming world.

Speaker 4 (06:19):
Absolutely, and even old fogies like me like I reach
a certain point where my hand eye coordination isn't what
it used to be. I don't have the twitch skills
of the youngins out there. I was raised on games
like the pac Man's you know, and the Galagh is
not so much the call of duties. And also I
never really like competition. I always preferred collaborative and cooperative games.

(06:44):
Even with board games, I much prefer that style. So
cozy games speaks to me because I like an environment
that fosters joy and wants all the participants to experience
that joy, not joy that one person feels at the
expense of everybody else. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong

(07:05):
with that kind of gaming, it just doesn't appeal to.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Me right, And I know all the gamers in my
life enjoyed cozy games, whereas people who like cozy games,
the same isn't true about non cozy games. So I
feel like they're very welcoming to people. And I guess
that brings us to the question, just to start off,
what is cozy gaming. I know you've talked about it before,
but we like to have a good solid definition here,

(07:31):
and people disagree. People like to disagree about what exactly
it is, but they're often described as something that's somewhat
mindless but still involved. They usually don't have violence or
competition in the same way non cozy games have them.
Players can't really lose or feel guilty about letting someone
down like in a multiplayer game. They usually have soothing

(07:51):
in pretty graphics and music, fairly simple task and controls.
They're inclusive and safe for all. They're low stress and
sort of a vibe feeling, and after you play them
you generally feel calm and happy.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
Yeah, there's some overlap with the genre of casual games,
but I feel like the term casual games is almost
like a kind of like it's like shade right, Like
people will quote unquote real gamers will dismiss something that
falls into casual games. And certainly there are bad casual

(08:27):
games out there. There are bad games in every genre.
It would be disingenuous to say every game that falls
into the cozy or casual bucket is great, but the
same is true for any other genre as well. And
I think the quote unquote true gamers, Well, there's a
lot of air quotes I'm doing, which is weird for
an audio podcast, but I think that they would paint

(08:50):
all of them with the same brush, and I think
that's unfortunate, it's reductive. It's not surprising for at least
certain segments of the gaming culture will get into more
of that later as well. But yeah, I think there's
certainly a real place for this, particularly in a world
where people are trying to find ways to reduce anxiety,

(09:13):
to be able to take their mind off things that
might be troubling them while not engaging in an activity
that is just inherently harmful to themselves.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
And I think it's interesting because when we have these
conversations about gaming in general, the biggest money maker out
there and people really want to discredit it is mobile gaming.
And that was one of the big conversations we had
when we talked about cozy gaming and what they want
to qualify as true gaming. And again you kind of
talked about this with the real gamers quote unquote, but

(09:45):
the level of competition that's there, But when you look
at what is making a dent in capitalism, which you
know that counts for more for anything else, right, it
is mobile gaming. It is the number one money maker
for that gaming industry. So it's interesting have this conversation
and the amount of women and marginalize people who actually
have access to something that is easily there and really

(10:09):
great to take your mind off things is playing five
minutes of what used to be snake y'all remember that game?
Oh yeah, you know, like those types of games that
have come back a little bit, and it helped with
dementia and help with like everyday warplay. It's actually a
really great way to go, but people want to dismiss
it so quickly because they don't want to say this
is true gaming.

Speaker 4 (10:27):
Yeah, and yet these are the games that often can
go viral across all demographics. Like I wouldn't necessarily say
that Wordle falls into the category of cozy game, but
certainly a casual game. And I don't know if you
guys remember this, and I apologize for guys. I don't
know if you folks have remembered this, But about four

(10:48):
years ago, there was this little bug that was going
around and like a lot of us were like stuck
at home, and then it seemed like this game called
Wordle brought everybody together in a way. And back then,
before it was x X was this thing called Twitter,
which wasn't terrible. I mean it was bad, but it
wasn't as bad. And I just remember, like so many

(11:11):
of my friends would their Twitter status would just be
their Wordle score for the day, and like I remember,
for the first like three weeks, I was like, I
don't know what the hell these boxes mean.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
I had that moment a lot.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
And I will say, you know what, for those out there,
this was a pickup line one dude used to a
group of us talking about Wordle. So it opens up
so much when you talk about these mobile games.

Speaker 4 (11:36):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great unifier.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
It does.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
And that's kind of going back to what you said
about preferring those kind of cooperative, collaborative games. A lot
of these are really fun because when the pandemic happened,
we were looking for both stress reliefs but also some companionship,
some way to connect to other people, and these games
were great for that. Yeah, you go on Twitter and
see someone's were score and you're like, oh, Like it

(12:01):
was just a really fun way when we couldn't hang
out in person necessarily and share these experiences. And I
think that is a big part of cozy games as well.
I am kind of shy, so I usually played cozy
games by myself, but it is a big part for
some people that you can connect with other people online
in this way.

Speaker 4 (12:21):
Well, And even though I'm an extrovert, I am like you.
I often for most most of my cozy gaming, I'm
playing the single player version of that. I mean, I
love collaboration, but there's so few games out there that
I connect with that are also collaborative and I feel
like I'm welcomed into that community. Sometimes you get into
a game pretty late, and it's like if you're the

(12:41):
first new friend in an established group of friends that
have been established for like ten years, and they're all
joking and using references that the rest of the group
knows and you do not, and you're like, well, this
is a mistake. I should probably go somewhere else. And
that's kind of how I feel for some of these
online communities. And it's no shade on them either. They're
they're having fun with their their established communities. It's just

(13:01):
sometimes it can be hard to make an inroad. But
the games themselves, the things that make a cozy game cozy,
that welcoming sense of joy, that's something that I certainly
could use more of in my life. And I love
that we have lots of different examples that we'll talk about,
and you know, not that much crossover, although there is

(13:22):
one game on Annie's list that I have to a
billion percent back up. But it's also the game that
you can't talk about because to really enjoy it, you
need to go in knowing nothing about it. Gone Home
is the game. Oh yes, so good, but you can't.
Don't don't look anything up, don't read about it, just

(13:45):
play it. Because I cried at that game. That one
made me cry. But yeah, I want to. I want
to chat about some of the examples we have here.
Like you you have some of the popular examples with
Animal Crossing. I mean that one went crazy popular in
the pandemic. It came out just as the pandemic was
creating lockdown, and like it was like it became a

(14:06):
pop culture moment in circles that I follow at any rate.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Oh yes, oh yes, it came out at like the
right time. And I think this is actually a great
segue into talking about how we all got into cozy games,
because I remember when that came out. Animal Crossing New
Horizons is one of the big examples people give for
cozy games. The other one is Stardy Valley. But I
kind of going back to your original point. I didn't

(14:30):
start playing Animal Crossing until two years later, and it
was because Samantha was like, you got to try these
cozy games.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
So I was trying to use her for fruit.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
Oh of course, yeah. I mean those turnips aren't going
to grow themselves, right.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Samantha was using me, But she's been my real like
open door into this world. So I thought we could
all talk about how our experiences and how we got
into it, starting with you, Samantha.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yes, I have to put a big caveat on the
games that I play. I am not really good with
my hand eye coordination, as you were talking about, is
not great. I am that one person that when we
play Mario Kart that I continuously fall off the.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
Track Like that is my RaSE, and you're gonna know
about it.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Because I'm like, I'm off, I fell again, I'm off again, and.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
I'm always last place.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
So for me, trying to just stay on track is
my thing, and that's that's kind of the theme through everything.
So with Animal Crossing, even though I love the fishing part,
I love the collecting and swimming, I just did it recently.
The new thing right now with the Christmas being around,
which we just had an episode about holiday themed animal crossing,

(15:43):
you can build a snowman.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
I was like, oh wow, okay, I want to do this.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
I have dropped every every snowball off the edge of
something or crashed it into a house, and I'm very
upset about this. I want you to know, but like
I'd love the trying to find the peoples to come
to my island does feel like I'm starting a bit
of a cult. And then also just keeping a campground,
like like that's my whole experience is to collect all

(16:07):
the fish, collect all the fossils, which I've done y'all,
but I haven't gotten all the art pieces. I have
any made sure to brag to me about that. My
island is kind of sad because it still again looks
like a campground. But I'm like, that's what i want.
I want to be a retreat into the campground, not like.

Speaker 4 (16:24):
Not like, hey, let's turn this into a bustling metropolis.
Is it animal crossing where the snowman will criticize you
if you don't get the balls just right?

Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yes? No?

Speaker 4 (16:35):
Yeah, yes?

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Is it trying to give me like, oh man, it'll
be like you tried your best.

Speaker 4 (16:39):
Yeah, the judgment so like if the head is too
small or too large in relation to the body, and
the snowman's like, what are you even doing?

Speaker 3 (16:48):
See yeah now I'm now I'm maybe more upset and
I haven't even done it. I can't even get it
together to make one.

Speaker 4 (16:54):
So I haven't played Animal Crossing. What are the YouTube
video channels I watch outside? Xbox did a whole thing
about it. When I saw that, it made me laugh
so hard. They're talking about how you know certain games
that that neg you when you when you when you
when you mess up a basic thing in the game.
But like, legitimately this is challenging to dude to get

(17:16):
it just right because it's hard to judge in the
game when you're at that level. But overall, the Animal
Crossing certainly checks all those cozy boxes. So so you
you got into that, that was kind of your your
journey into cozy gaming.

Speaker 3 (17:30):
One of the things that happened is part my partner
is a gamer and loves to play games, and he's
been trying to get me into gaming in general.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
So Overcooked was this beginning with me. Huge mistake.

Speaker 3 (17:42):
Again, I'm not competitive yelling at me about cooking something
just right.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yes, all all over the place.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
We did not fight. I will give you that. So
our relationship is strong. I've determined that. But he then
like I said, let's try animal crossing. I think you'll
like this, and it did. The trying to find mind
the again, like finding the biggest fish that's worth the
most amount of money. Let's do this, getting the singer
to come onto our island.

Speaker 4 (18:08):
Love it.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
I don't know if you know, Like you said, you
haven't played this, Jonathan.

Speaker 4 (18:12):
I haven't, but I've I listened to a lot of
shows of people who have played it, so I feel
kind of like I've semi experienced elements of the game
just through osmosis.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
I think you should try it.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
I would be interested to see what kind of village
island you create, Like I have a good friend who's
made his entire island goth, but like chic Goth. I
don't understand how that happened. He has displays everywhere and Annie, well, Annie,
you need to talk about your island obviously.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
Okay, So basically what happened was Samantha wins.

Speaker 4 (18:50):
Any story that starts with basically what happened.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Basically Samantha went from like, I'm not a gamer to
hear all these games you need to play, and she
was like, we're going to do an episode. It's research based,
so you need to go play these cozy games. And
she gave me all these recommendations. One of them was
Animal Crossing. And the funny thing about me is that
I'm a completionist. I want those achievements. So I knew

(19:14):
that's why I didn't start playing Animal Crossing, because I
knew it never ends really, so I was like, I'm
just going to be trapped in some hellscape where I'm
checking the mail, like I don't want this, but she
convinced me to do it, and I of course made
my very Star Wars scened. It's got a Star Scened song,
it's got a Star Wars flag, everybody says Star Wars slogans.
But because I'm such a completionist, I completed that damn

(19:37):
museum and I quit. I'm done.

Speaker 4 (19:42):
This is no further.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah. But it's just really funny because I know i'd
like have the exact opposite experience with cozy games, where
I'm like, no, I'll play my like horror game a
million times and it's great, but a cozy game. I'm
so stressed because I where's the end?

Speaker 4 (20:00):
Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, there's certain ones where you
can theoretically reach the end of the content, but even
those occasionally will get massive updates and it will you know.
It's it's like the Mafia. Just when you thought you
were out that you get pulled right back in. And
so I have a whole bunch of games that are
listed on this section, but I'm just going to talk

(20:22):
about one and maybe mention the others when we chat
about some of our favorites. But Starduck Valley is the
game they got me into cozy games. Now. Starduw Valley
has some elements to it that also include like if
you're going into the mines, there's combat and stuff, but
that's not the prime focus of the game. That's one element.
Most of it is about setting up a farm and

(20:44):
creating relationships with all the villagers that live in the
little town and maybe even finding yourself a match. There
are certain members of the town who are romancible. You can,
if you're a jerk, get into admitted a relationship and
then ruin it by flirting with somebody else. It's it's

(21:04):
such fun. Concerned Ape is the name of the guy
or the handle of the guy who created it. He's
got another game that's that's been in development for years
now that I am highly anticipated, called Haunted Chocolateer. Cannot
wait to see that. It sounds like it's going to
have a lot of sort of shared DNA the Stardoo Valley.
But yeah, Starduo Valley. I literally have more than one

(21:26):
hundred hours of game time in that game because I
would start over and try different things like well, what
if I start a relationship with this village or instead
of that one? What happens? Can I fix him? The
answer to that last question is no. Just like in
real life, like I had never done any video game modding,

(21:47):
I've been playing games since I was a kid. And
I'm fifty. So when I say when I was a kid,
I was playing games like River Raid, which by the way,
developed by a woman, Carol Shaw, phenomenal game that was
on the Atari to six hundred. But I've been playing
games since I was a kid. It was the cozy
games I started playing really with Stardu Valley. I got
to the point where I was modding it and which

(22:09):
added new villagers and new areas to explore, and just
recently this past year, Concerned Ape released a huge update
to the game to make it one point six. So
even in a game like that where at first it
feels like there's a beginning, middle, and end, and then
you can continue past the end but the story's pretty
much over, it's never a guarantee because some of those

(22:29):
cozy developers just figure out, hey, I want to add
a little more to that world I created, and next
thing you know, you're right back in it. And it's
crazy too, because of course the sale in the case
of Starduo Valley has already been made. It's not one
of those games where it's like a subscription based thing
where you've you know, you're paying every month to play
this game. You purchased it already. Concerned Ape has no
obligation to keep developing this title, and yet he continues

(22:54):
to do it. So uh, a true hero, I would,
I would say, But yeah, that was the game that
pulled me into it, and since then, there are countless
games I would argue fall into the cozy category that
I have, I have explored and I can't wait to
talk more about coziness. But my producer is holding up

(23:14):
a knife and pointing it at me, So I think
we need to take a quick ad break or else
things are going to get an awful lot less cozy.
All right, we're back, and my producer has given me
the friends symbol of smashing two wrists together, So I

(23:36):
think we all know what that means. It means it's
time to get back to talking about cozy games.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
Never part of gold.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
But yeah, no, I was wondering because Stardu Valley, Animal
Crossing and I have another game, Cozy Grove are all
real time games I have, like partner loves Started Valley again,
our executive producer Christina Loves Started Valley. If you let
them go, do they like start like all their food rots?
Does that all that happen? Does all the crops and

(24:12):
all that they've worked so hard?

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Do they go away?

Speaker 4 (24:14):
Crops will stay ready for harvesting until you harvest them
or if the season changes. So each season is twenty
eight days long, and so once once spring turns to summer,
for example, any spring crops you had that were either
still in the growing phase or were unharvested, because you know,

(24:36):
some crops take longer to grow than others if you
don't plant it out properly. I mean there are people
who make spreadsheets with this stuff. I never got that
tactical with it. Let's say you plant something that takes
you know, eight days to grow, but you did it
on three days before the end of the season. Well,
then once the first day of summer starts, all of
those crops are now dead and you have to clear

(24:58):
them with a scythe and then and start over with
summer crops because spring crops won't survive into summer. With
a few exceptions, there's some crops that do span two
different seasons, so if you plant them early in season one,
they'll go all the way through season two, and some
of them will continually generate vegetables or fruit, depending upon

(25:21):
what the crop is. So like corn, corn keeps producing,
but if it's something like a melon, once you harvest it,
that's gone. You have to plant something new in its place,
or just say that's it. So the nice thing is
about this game is that you can be obsessive and
use spreadsheets and everything to plan everything out. There's nothing
wrong with that. That's a legitimate form of gaming. Or

(25:43):
you can be like me, where you're like, whoop, see
Daisy shouldn't have planted that then could have held on
to it till the next year. But whatever, it's summertime.
Let's plant some other stuff. And that's what I love
about the game is that there's not a right way
to play it. I mean, you can mend Max, but
I'm it's just not that type of player. I've never
been a men maxer, so I don't sweat it and

(26:04):
it helps me a lot.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
Okay, you know, I think when we talk about games
now started Valley, Yeah, they had the seasons, it's not
like real time seasons. Yeah, but games like Animal Crossing.
Specifically with Animal Crossing, it gives you a new venture
because you can visit each other's islands. I still love
the Elijah Wood story about Animal Crossing. That really pushed
it to an element of like, oh there's a celebrity,

(26:27):
let's go let's see if we can get him to
come to our island type of conversation. But it really
opens up where during that pandemic era where we were
all quarantined or trying to people were able to actually
still have fun, Like you don't have to be right
next to each other I have visited Annie's Island.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
I haven't visited recently. I need to see the finished product.
You can do dream.

Speaker 3 (26:48):
States where you go and visit people's island without interacting
with people, but it's actually people's islands. Like this level
of gaming is such a different, unique perspective. It could
be dangerous if you look at a different way. But
wind and Appropriately is so fun because I have brought
people back into animal crossing just like any after the fact,
because I am real slow in catching up with the

(27:09):
times and like what the fads are and I get
to interact with them, and they get to show off
their island, even if we're not right next to each other.
Like It's a fantastic way that this level of community
is able to attach to a game like this, And
I think that's a big part of what makes these
appealing is that safety, that safety that it kind of brings,

(27:31):
as well as that soft, warm feeling that we talk
about when it comes to obviously cozy. So this is
such a great opening for so many people who just
want to occupy some time once again without having to
remember how awful things can be or.

Speaker 4 (27:46):
Agree well, and it gives you a chance to see
into other people's approach to creativity, which I love. I
think of it equivalent to there's a concept within tech
about open source, right, this idea of you are creating
something and you're leaving it open for other people to
be able to see how you're doing it. They can

(28:07):
actually contribute to the development. In some cases, they are
free to take what you did and build upon that,
maybe in a brand new way. And I feel like
elements of that philosophy are inherent in some of these
cozy games as well, where it is this openness. And
one of the best things about open source, in my opinion,

(28:29):
is that it allows for people who otherwise never would
have been able to participate in that particular project to
take part in it, and the project benefits from their participation.
Because if you have a closed project, you might have
some really smart people working on that they're really really smart,
but you're limited to the people who are in the room.

(28:50):
When it's open, it's practically unlimited. I mean, as long
as someone has access, they can contribute, and it doesn't
matter how big that room, that closed room was, you're
still going to find the best ideas in that open environment.
Same sort of thing with this approach to cozy games
where you're going to see stuff that Whenever I see
any of these videos of people who have meticulously crafted

(29:14):
their eyelids and animal crossing, I just sit there and think, like,
how many hours does that represent? I mean, it's phenomenal.
You've done an amazing job. I don't think of it
as a waste of time. I think of it as
an incredible expression that you took these tools that were
meant to be a game and you turned it into art.
That's kind of phenomenal, and you're sharing it for free
with people, or maybe not for free, maybe they got

(29:36):
to bring a turn up or two, but they still
get to go see it.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yes, And I think there is absolutely a reason why
they're so popular and why they are so popular right now.
And the pandemic was a big one, and during the
pandemic they really took off because we were looking for
this way to connect to find stress relief. And that
has translated to so many new games and so many

(30:00):
of them that are so interesting and new, which we'll
talk about, but also a lot of money. Like I've
estimated three hundred and twenty billion dollars by twenty twenty six,
and a lot more gamers three point two billion gamers
worldwide by the end of twenty twenty three. That's a
lot of people. And with that, coinciding with the rise

(30:23):
of cozy games, we've seen the rise of women and
non binary people and trans people who are developers. I
haven't found anything that's a direct link, but it's pretty
telling that we're seeing a lot more of these games,
and then we're seeing a lot more women and non
binary people and trans people in the development space. Because
we also have talked to some developers on our show

(30:46):
who are saying, you know, it's easier to get in
in the cozy gaming space as an indie developer who
doesn't have a big studio backing her. And so I
think when we're talking about that, when we're talking about
people in the game world, this creativity of seeing what
someone does on their island, but also the creativity of

(31:07):
having more developers in the space and seeing what comes
of that. I've just really really enjoyed. I love seeing
a game that doesn't have the traditional like this is
victory model. I love seeing the different ways people are
redefining games. It's just so fun because games are such
a great storytelling medium, or just even a pretty space

(31:30):
where it feels nice and safe and you can connect
with people that way. There's just so much vast fertile
ground for new types of games. So I have really
loved that coming out of this.

Speaker 4 (31:43):
Yeah, I think there has been a real convergence, both
with the rise of the popularity of cozy games and
the welcome trend of more women, non binary and trans
game developers getting traction in a space that traditionally has
favored men. I mentioned River Raid being made by Carol Shaw,

(32:05):
and of course that's not the only example of an
early game developed by a woman. There's Women have been
involved in game development since games have been a thing, right,
whether you're talking about video games or just games in general,
but more often than not, their stories were kind of
ignored or just simply not not addressed. While you would

(32:28):
hear about, you know, Nolan Bushnell or something, you know,
you hear about all the the men, especially the business
leaders responsible for establishing game studios and that sort of thing.
And I like the fact that that women and non
binary and trans game developers are having a moment, you know, like,

(32:50):
and I'm hoping it's just the beginning of a moment
that lasts from here on out, so that we're not
telling the same heterogeneous story over and over again. And
it's also nice to be able to talk about something
that isn't a terrible story, like toxic work culture at
a company like Ubisoft or Activision Blizzard, Like anyone who's

(33:13):
done any research into gaming, ultimately you're going to come
across those stories. The nice thing is it doesn't have
to be like that. It's not like that everywhere, and
there are stories of people who are in a safe
space to be creative and to develop games and to
create things that speak to a very wide audience. And
you know, I'm living proof, Like I'm a straight white

(33:36):
man who loves cozy games. It's not like these games
aren't meant for you so you can't play them. They're
so welcoming that even a demo like me gets to
go and play with everybody's toys and I love it.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yes, And you know, when we first started talking about
cozy games on Sminty, Samantha did all this research to
see like what's up here, and there was a lot
of like are women or is it more women playing
cozy games? And there was some research that suggested that,
but it was mostly like pretty small percentage wise. I
think it was just because the narrative has so long

(34:14):
been this is what a gamer is, but women, wait
a minute, they're playing this and they're playing mobile games,
and that goes into what we've been kind of alluding
to of that discussion of what's a real game and
what's a real gamer. And in my opinion, like I
read somebody wrote it like that's like saying somebody who

(34:37):
reads a children's book and a different book, Like, they're
all books at the end of the day, they're all books. Yea,
Like why are we casting one is not a real
game or it's lesser, And oftentimes it's because it's seen
as something more feminine. There's like a lot of gender
essentialism of like, oh, it's more like social and empathetic,

(34:59):
that's more are for women. But plenty of women like
violent games too. I'm somebody who likes all kinds of games.
Oh yeah, I don't know why, Well, like I do
because on the show we do. But we always have
to gender things in this way. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's unnecessary, yeah, unnecessary.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
Oh yeah, no, Like anecdotally, like some of the creators
like the content creators that I follow, who are you know,
they're not developers, but they're players in the space. A
lot of the women that I follow, you know, they're
playing incredibly competitive you know, triple A title, violent games,

(35:38):
you know. And I find all the pigeonholing and stereotyping
to be really frustrating. It also does not help that
there are video game developers out there who are trying
to capitalize on a female audience, and so they're making
a game they think women will like, which is the

(35:59):
equivalent in the tech space of hey, let's make this
thing pink and then women will buy it. It is
the most insulting, reductive thing you can imagine. And those
are some of the games I would say are bad games.
They're not. Maybe the gameplay is fine, but the presentation
is so pandering and obvious and insulting that I can't
stand it. It's insincere, is what it really comes down to.

(36:23):
And I don't want that game, right.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
And even though cozy gaming is not new, like the
term is fairly new obviously, and then the understanding and
kind of the I guess industry in itself with people
trying to jump on board again like big corporations like
you were talking about, and I found it like really
reassuring that we see more and more independent companies coming
out because of games like this. I know you're gonna

(36:48):
mention one of the games that you love that I
haven't played yet. I'm gonna it's Unpacking. And the way
that it had developed was through a female, a women creator,
Rin Bryer, and she worked with an independent company in
Australia to make this happen. We see when things like this.
It won so many awards, it has baf does. It
has all these awards to it because it is one

(37:10):
of the biggest games out there, But it couldn't have
happened without it actually being developed with an independent gaming company.
And I think that's really important to talk about that
we are seeing more opportunities, Thank goodness because of this.
We had a creator on named Renee Gettens and loved her.
She was fantastic and she is a director of Stumbling
Cat Studios, which is an independent company, and she talked

(37:33):
about the struggles of releasing her own game, which by
the way, is Potions, and it's a really cool if
you like Stardo Valley that Potions was fantastic.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
Did you play it okay? So good?

Speaker 3 (37:43):
And she did such an amazing job in creating this
that the marketing part was kind of shaky and she
really had to push forward through outlets like TikTok in
order to have it out there. And I think she's
things fairly successful now, thank goodness. But like, it's independent
companies like this that really help create a better platform
and a better result in gaming through their companies.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
I love hearing that a lot like that's got such
a nice contrast to some of the stories you hear
from the big established companies, where like there are women
who say, oh, my time at Activision Blizzard was actually great.
I got to work on some fantastic things, but there
was also this incredibly toxic culture that I also had
to deal with. And of course there are women who

(38:26):
said the toxic culture defined their entire experience of working
at these companies. So hearing about these chances for people
who don't identify as straight men having a chance to
be able to build in this space is really encouraging

(38:47):
to me, because I mean, there are entire experiences I
never would have had if it hadn't been for someone
taking a chance on a person who doesn't fall into
what is considered the mold of video game designer or
you know, video game director or whatever it may be.
And that's a real shame because you know, we would

(39:07):
be without some really kick ass games if that were
the case.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
You said, you do potions. How far along are you?

Speaker 4 (39:14):
You've got the beginning still, I'm still very early on,
still very early on, so but I want to. I'll
give a shout out now, but I'll probably shout her
out again later. There's a content creator who goes by
the handle gab Smolders. Gab Smolders. I found out about
gab Smolders because I'm an old guy. I was extremely
late to the game of discovering this one content creator

(39:37):
and not irishman top of them, mart Untilia is how
he started off all his videos. His name's Jack Septic Guy.
That's his handle, Jack Septic Guy. He's big, big, big
news like huge content creator. I came late to the
game found out his partner is gab Smolders and he
had her on for a streamer too, and I was like, Oh,
this person's really cool, and then they mentioned that she
had her own YouTube video channel, so I went and

(39:59):
subscribed to that, and so she started playing Potions and
I was like, yes, so I just haven't. I have
so little time and so much of it is dedicated
to Starduo Valley and Disney Dreamlight Valley that I have
only played a little bit of it.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
Okay, well, okay, this is a good segue into a
couple of things for me.

Speaker 4 (40:19):
Well, I know, Annie, you have to say something because
you started and then Tari found another knife. We took
the first one away from her. This one's bigger, So
I think we're going to take another quick break to
think our sponsors. Tari's staring daggers at me, but the

(40:44):
actual literal dagger is no longer in her hand, so
I think it's safe for us to start the episode story.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
Well, okay, yes, I do have a couple of things
I wanted to bring up because after all of this
was coming out, maybe more women are playing games? What
does that mean? People were trying to.

Speaker 4 (41:05):
Women they're a thing? Did you know?

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Did you know we could have been making money off
of this whole demographic? Oh my gosh, it's so frustrating because,
like you said, women have been creating games that they've
been playing games forever, but there was a whole like
gendered marketing thing that happened in the eighties and yep. Anyway,
there was a lot of what's going on here. Obviously,
one of the things that came up was casual games

(41:32):
and cozy games are easier to pick up, they're more accessible,
and women we've talked about recently on a recent episode,
they have less leisure time, So it's quite possible that
that is one of the reasons is like I can
just pick this up whenever I have time. I don't
have to go through the tutorial of how all of
this works, like it's pretty simple in between all the

(41:54):
other things you've got going on. Social media for the
first time was actually more marketing games towards women, in
some cases very problematically so as you were mentioning, but
it is one of the first times where these games
were being marketed towards women, and things like content creators
and social media also helped. But I think we do

(42:16):
have to emphasize as well that it has been when
you're talking about things like Activision, Blizzard, when you're talking
about online harassment, it's been a space that has often
been very hostile and even if somebody didn't outright experience
the hostility, just the reputation of it was enough to
be like, oh, I don't want to I'm not welcome

(42:38):
in that world.

Speaker 4 (42:38):
Yeah, so this episode overall is all about joy and
acceptance and accessibility and celebrating connectivity and all this sort
of thing, but we have to address a very awful,
terrible elephant in the room. So yeah, I wish I
could say that the gaming industry and the audience for

(43:02):
games in general all came to embrace and celebrate the
fact that there was a more diverse group of gamers
out there then typically gets represented. But no, that's not
the way it unfolded. There were trashy people who mostly
gathered on eight chan. If you don't know what eight
chan is and you've heard of four chan, eight chan

(43:24):
is four chan but worse, and they got together and
created a coordinated smear campaign that was targeting women in games,
whether they were women creators like developers, or they were
in the gaming media industry where they were reporting on games.
And this ended up getting the name from the actor

(43:46):
Adam Baldwin. You might remember him from Firefly, a show
that I used to like to watch, and gamer gate
became a thing in twenty fourteen, and on its surface,
the perpetuators of game or gate said it was all
about addressing and unfair and biased practices in media, in
games media. In reality, what it was was a harassment

(44:09):
campaign that specifically singled out women and non binary people
in the space and tried to run them out of it.
And this extended beyond just online harassment to things like swatting,
where they were sending swat teams to people's homes, or
sending disturbing male or sharing a you know, doxing people online.

(44:32):
And it was a perfect catalog of all the worst
behaviors that you would hear about on the internet, all
directed at women for having the temerity to be both
women and people who like to play games. And it
was the worst, and it lasted for like two years
until it kind of died down when enough people said

(44:55):
that they were no longer buying the cover story of
this is about game journalism, because it's so clearly was
not so much so that even Wikipedia, if you go
to Wikipedia and look up gamergate, it actually has i
think in brackets it says an online harassment campaign. So
it's gamergate online harassment campaign, like that's what they It's not,

(45:16):
you know, championing ethics in game journalism the way that
they were claiming. So that was super ugly and for
someone like me, as naive and idiotic as I am
being not having that experience like I have not had
the experience of being confronted with this kind of stuff
in my day to day life, seeing it so bare,

(45:38):
like an undeniable out there was a real wake up
call that was long overdue for me, honestly, because it
was undeniable what was happening, and that the fact that
it was happening in the open, it was one of
those things that I thought was really disturbing. This would
eventually dovetail into the me too movement and you would
start to see more and more people come out and

(46:00):
support women and the stories they had to tell, not
just in gaming obviously, but in all venues and in
some ways I think ultimately it's a good thing, but
it was such a truly brutal time online and in
the gaming industry in general.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
Oh trying not to be the negative nancy, and we
were trying to do very positive I wish we could
say that was the end and everything has changed for
the better and everybody accepts everyone into this world. But
since then, we've had incidents in Twitch where deep fakes
are made of female creators. We've seen people attacking trans

(46:38):
creators like Nobody's business people, attacking influencers who'd say they
like a certain game like I definitely love following, like
you were talking about different YouTubers and TikTokers who talk
about cozy gaming specifically like that's now part of my world,
and them having to do like every six months of

(46:59):
video saying please stop harassing me, Please stop telling me
I'm not a gamer, please, like having to do something
that seems so needless and so honestly like good for them,
I hope they're making making money off of that video,
but the fact that they have to take their time
and do another video to call out the haters, essentially,
because it seems like it's a constant basis every time

(47:21):
I've ever seen and again it maybe because Twitter has
changed so vastly in the last few years, but even
before it did change hands, I remember looking at one
specific group, a nonprofit feminist frequency. Yes, their whole thing
is to try to educate as well as advocate for
women and non binding people in the community, in the

(47:41):
gaming community. Every time they would post something, I swear
about seventy percent of the comments to them were literal
dick pics. Yeah, and that was after the fact. So
there's so much And again though back to there's so
many people that are like you, Jonathan, who are like,
what is going on? Why would you do this?

Speaker 1 (48:00):
This is silly?

Speaker 3 (48:00):
Why can't everybody be a part of this? This seems unnecessary.
So there's definitely people who have become more and more supporters,
but there's still that negativity that still have people and
a lot of marginalized people questioning should I even try?

Speaker 4 (48:15):
Yeah, it suggests to me that there's some deep things
that go well beyond the gaming sphere that are contributors
to this kind of behavior. I mean obviously, because like
I think anyone could say, well, if you don't like
those kinds of games, and you don't consider them games,
why don't you just follow the people who like the
kinds of games you like? And then you know, other

(48:37):
people can enjoy this thing and it doesn't like the
fact that it exists doesn't mean you're required to enjoy
it or engage with it. Go and do the things
you like to do. So why do you have to
why do you feel the need to engage in a
negative way with this world that doesn't speak to you?
Just go do the thing that does speak to you.
And I think the answer to that question is, Oh,

(49:00):
I see. There's a deeper level of misogyny and transphobia
and tribalism that's at play, that is driving these behaviors,
and this is just an easy way for that to manifest,
and in some ways has been treated as an acceptable
way for it to manifest, because again, gaming for so

(49:22):
long was perceived to be the domain of young male
leisurely activity. And maybe that's a whole lot of armchair psychology,
and none of it is supportable. It's entirely possible, But
from my own observations, it's the implication I feel pressed
upon me when I see these kinds of things unfold.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
Yes, And if this were a different episode of Jonathan,
I would unpack so much of that, like the history
of dudes feeling maligned because they were nerds, and now
nerd is cool and they don't the gatekeeping, they don't
want anybody the pedestals. Yeah, yes, and the reason like

(50:04):
it's a real game and not a real game skill level,
and you could never obtain this skill, which yes I can.
But anyway, one of the things that really upsets me
about all of this a lot of things, but one
of the things that really upsets me is that games
are fun and they are a good stress reliever. As

(50:25):
we were talking about, there's been scientific studies into all
of the things that they can help with. We've had
listeners right in that say it helps them with things
like PTSD, can like, it can relieve your stress, your anxiety,
it can lift your mood, it can foster connection. It's

(50:46):
being used in all kinds of treatments for things, and
so obviously there's a lot going on there. There's been
a long standing narrative about games and mental health. But
it's really unfortunate to have like a whole demographic where
it is either they're missing out on it entirely because

(51:08):
they don't feel welcome or it's a stressor because they
kind of get harassed if they play.

Speaker 4 (51:13):
Yeah yeah, yeah, no, that that sucks. If any of
my listeners out there ever find yourself tempted to like
criticize someone for the things that they like, if those
things aren't hurting anyone. Just think twice about it. As
I often stress this show, the underlying philosophy is a

(51:35):
combination of critical thinking and compassion. That compassion piece is important,
I say over and over again. If you are compassionate
but you lack critical thinking, you're a dip. And if
you are a critical thinker but you lack compassion, you're
a jerk. Don't be a dip or a jerk. Combine
the two together, and then you can be you know,

(51:57):
or at least try to be a good person. It's
a good step. It's a good start, a foundation. Really.
But yeah, I completely agree with everything you said, Annie,
I mean, like my listeners know this, but this might
be news to you, and I apologize. But earlier this year,
I had a massive medical emergency and nearly died and

(52:19):
spent quite some time in the intensive care unit of
a local hospital here in the Atlanta area, where everyone
was super nice. And a part of that medical emergency
was due to stress. My blood pressure had reached level
of two sixteen over one point thirty, which is in
stroke territory if you're curious. Uh, And so I had

(52:44):
to do many, many, many things to try and find
ways to change my lifestyle to improve my stress levels.
And I did lots of stuff, like I reduced my workload,
I started to eat better better, and then the holidays happened,
but anyway, I was eating better for most of the year.
And these games, these cozy games, were one of the

(53:09):
ways I would manage my anxiety and my stress. When
I would feel them coming on and I had a
little extra time, I would play these games. I would
let me focus on something that was not stressful. There
were no real like there's like steaks, but they're all
very low level stakes. You know, will Emily agree to
go to the movies with me in Stardue Valley Or

(53:31):
I'm not gonna have to go back to Sandy and
boy she's a pill? Yeah, you know, and so like
low steaks. So I but I found them, Like I again,
this is anecdotal, but I found them very therapeutic. And
to me, when you have an experience like that that

(53:54):
you feel directly benefits like your life and is potentially
keeping you alive or at least helping to you know,
when you when we tell these stories about people who
feel turned away from the hobby or they're criticized for
liking a certain type of game because it's not a
different type of game. It really is upsetting because I'm like, y'all,

(54:17):
these games kept me from going insane and having blood
pressure to the point where I had to go back
into the hospital. I think this is something that is
worth experiencing, or if you don't want to experience it,
just let other people enjoy what they're enjoying.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
I'm really glad you're okay.

Speaker 4 (54:33):
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, well, okay is a really
broad term.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
We're gonna say, yes, okay, are you Are you feeling better?

Speaker 4 (54:44):
My blood pressure is lower?

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
The surgery I had to have earlier this year went well.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
So.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
Glad to hear it.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
Glad that you're okay, We're glad you're back with us.
And yes, less to the to the workload. Yeah, good
on you. I know that's noting hard for you. I
might not know you well, but I know that you
do work a lot, So good on you for falling back.
But here's the other thing to this too. Not only
is it yes, all the stress relief because I'm with you,

(55:13):
because I need that as well. I found out I've
got a perfect game for you that has an ending.
But it's beautiful, it's very stress relieving. But one of
the things this is a money making industry and not
just for developers, not just for companies. But we talked
about influencers. It opened the door for so many people
to be able to be a part of this industry
which seemed geared towards men. So even in twitch, twitch streams,

(55:37):
twitch creators, people have been making bank and you rarely
see women in there, but when you do, it's pretty
cool to me to see so many being able to
play any games. It's not just cozy games, it's all
these games. But even more so, like we were talking
about with TikTok, we're talking about with YouTube like being
able to make money off of content. That's something that

(56:00):
wasn't previously done before. So we have creators like we've
talked about. You talked about gab Smoulders, which I wouldn't
want to hear more about her because I'm going to
follow her. But Cozy Kay is one of the ones
that really got me into finding these different games. And
she makes this aesthetic like her whole thing is the
aesthetics of it all. She loves the game, don't don't
play she she loves the game. But like with her aesthetics,

(56:21):
she's being able to make a living through this content
and she does an amazing, amazing job. She's gotten sponsorships
through these games. She's gotten sponsorships from blanket companies and
candle companies because again, it goes along with that cozy vibe.
And this opens up so much more for marginalized people
to be able to be a part of an industry

(56:41):
they thought they could never be a part of previously,
because yeah, maybe their thing is not playing I'm sorry
any but last of us because they don't want their
heart to be torn out of their chest every few days.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Then I'm sorry, but.

Speaker 3 (56:58):
Like, you see so much more like. And then you
have people like Milady Confetti, who is another creator that
she's on a podcast, her podcast, Nerdy Magical Girl Podcast
where she gets to talk about her love of cozy
games and gaming in general and just all things nerdy.
But this really opened up a door for her to
be a content creator that she couldn't have been previously

(57:19):
or may not have had the opportunity previously. So this
is such a moneymaker for not only again the creators
are the developers, but so many more people out there
and I think that's amazing. Yeah, because we need more
content like this.

Speaker 4 (57:32):
Yeah, yeah, I like. I love the creators who engage
in the cozy and also the silly like I like
creators who are who don't have that ego or being
and they're not being silly like in a prankish way
where they're constantly pranking each other. I don't like the
pranks like this one. So many pranks are clearly pre

(57:53):
arranged and not actually pranks. They're just performative and y'all
that's just not cool. But two like there usually mean spirited,
and I'm not big on that either. My friend Shay
would say, well, it's because you're a cancer. You just
want everyone to be friendly all the time. Like, yeah,
I do want I don't believe in astrology, but I
do want people to be friendly all the time. Gosh

(58:14):
darn it, So I total cancer. But but yeah, I
like I like the people who they They love the cozy,
they love being silly, they love laughing. Like that's the
vibe I yearn for when I'm going on to watch content.
So like gab Smolders, who I did mention earlier. She

(58:35):
does a lot of different games like not just cozy games.
She also really really and any you dig this, she
loves creepy, spooky, supernatural horror type games, so those are
like the two categories she typically does. And you never
know if it's gonna be a cozy game or if
it's gonna be a this thing's going to eat your
face off. Your face game. Typically not an action oriented game.

(58:57):
It's usually more like like Japanese horror aesthetic going on.
She does a lot of games from Itchyo.

Speaker 3 (59:04):
But.

Speaker 4 (59:06):
I love it whenever it's cozy, because she herself will
make herself cozy. She has a cat named BIB and
BB is a big, old, fluffy tabby cat who who
very frequently will interrupt her videos and BB just becomes
part of the video and like BB, has BB's own
fan club. But yeah, potions is how I learned potions

(59:27):
from gab Smolders. I've watched her play Stardu Valley. I've
watched her play lots of these cozy games, including the
ones that have sort of a creepy element to them.
So that's why Annie, I think you definitely need to
check her out. She's originally from the Netherlands, now living
in England, and her accent is also adorable. It's it's

(59:51):
not super strong, but it's one of the many things
that I actually find very comforting when I'm watching these.
It's almost to the point of being ASMR without being ASMR,
Like it's not intentionally you could argue unintentional ASMR unless
she's playing one of the really super wacky games where
it's just way too much laughing for it to be relaxing.

(01:00:11):
It's just very fun. But yeah, highly recommend gab Smolder's
Her content is great. If you go to her channel,
say I sent you. She doesn't know who I am,
it'd just be fun.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Who was this?

Speaker 4 (01:00:24):
Yeah, exactly who's Jonathan from text? Who's this guy?

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Well? I mean that's such a useful. There are so
many video games. It's so useful to have someone who
you trust to recommend or not recommend in case maybe so,
I do think that's really valuable. I found a lot
of horror games through people where they're like, oh, have
you seen this someone else playing it? And kind of

(01:00:52):
to the getting with the cat and the blanket. A
lot of people say, like for them, the cozy game
is is like you get in your blanket, you get
your bed or you get the warm drink. And that's
why a lot of cozy games are on portable things
like Switch. Yeah, So I do think that's important part
of this conversation as well, the rise of portable gaming systems.

(01:01:17):
I also read some people describe it as being meditative
and that's why they kind of feel that health benefit
when they play. But I do think unfortunately gaming, and
it specifically cozy gaming, is often dismissed as like there's
no value in this, or in fact it's doing you harm.
But beyond the high stress times we live in, and

(01:01:41):
there have been studies that show these do help. They
are also when we're talking about why it matters. It
matters that we're looking at different ways games can look
based on who's creating them. It matters when we're talking
about like how we define the structure or it is winning,

(01:02:01):
when we're talking about inclusive inclusivity and storytelling, our creativity
to give us these better stories, these more varied stories,
and just women, having more women and marginalized people in
gaming and redefining what a gamer is so we can
hopefully one day move on from that conversation and we
can move on to like improving in a different way.
I'm tired of being stuck on this one part. Yeah,

(01:02:23):
let's let's talk about like why these cozy games are
so valuable and why people love them, and let's stop
dismissing them as useless.

Speaker 4 (01:02:32):
Yeah or not real games. Yeah, yeah, I think. I
think if everyone were to play Gone Home Sincerely. Like literally,
you sit down, you play Gone Home Sincerely, and you
can't talk about that game because it ruins the game.
But you get to the end of Gone Home, and
the by the end of Gone Home, the game has

(01:02:54):
turned out to be not what you thought it was
when you started, Like, I think it's safe to say
that it is different. And if you are not moved
by the end of that, just you know, like maybe
maybe keep your opinions to yourself, because for the rest
of us, it would be really nice if we could
all just celebrate something that like tells such a beautiful
story that unfolds in such an amazing way and has

(01:03:17):
a killer soundtrack that you know, we can all celebrate
in something and maybe for someone like me have a
chance to see the world from a perspective entirely different
from my day to day experience, and that to me
is one of those really valuable elements of this is
that one, people who have largely been underrepresented or not

(01:03:40):
even represented at all within video games get to have
an experience that reflects their reality. That I think is
invaluable by itself. The added benefit is that people like me,
who have been catered to for my entire life get
to have an experience outside of what I normally get
to live, and it just it opens up your eyes

(01:04:02):
and it's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Yes, the power of storytelling in games because it's you
playing like there's a part of you in it. I
think that is so if you genuinely allow yourself to
be moved, if the game's good, you will be moved. Yeah,
And I think that is incredibly, incredibly powerful, and honestly,

(01:04:24):
I'm kind it's kind of tragic because the people who
are dismissing cozy games could really use them.

Speaker 4 (01:04:28):
Oh yeah a lot. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I do think
it's funny that you said the Last of Us is
instmat that you said the Last of Us is Annie's
cozy game. It's so not a cozy game in any way,
shape or form. It will say, however, Episode three, I
think of the Last of Us TV show is perhaps

(01:04:49):
the best television I've ever seen in my entire life.
So if you haven't seen the HBO adaptation of the
first Last of Us game, you need to see that
because it's probably the most beautiful love story.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
Yes, tears, so many tears.

Speaker 4 (01:05:05):
Oh my gosh, I cried for days. I cried. I cried.
I cried describing the episode to my partner, who did
not My partner never played the game, had no interest
in the show, and I was like, I have to
tell you because I have to talk about this.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
I've got to share it with someone like.

Speaker 4 (01:05:28):
I love Nick Offerman so much more and I already
loved him as much as I thought I could. Hey, there,
this is Jonathan from the future. Hey, y'all know how
this works. This means that we kept on talking and
the show kept getting longer. So Annie and Samantha, who
are still on the call with me, now have to

(01:05:48):
listen to me throw to more sponsors. So we'll be
right back. Let's sort of move out toward the end here.
We've been chatting for quite a long time, and there's
so much more we could say. Obviously, this is a

(01:06:09):
very important topic. It sounds silly to say cozy games
is an important topic, but it absolutely is for all
the different reasons that we've listed, from the benefits to
the increased representation to the entrance of people with new
perspectives in the world of video game development, which ultimately

(01:06:30):
benefits everybody. Even if you don't play the game, it
benefits you. Just chill out, you're gonna get the benefits.
Let's talk about some recommendations that we each have. We've
mentioned some of them already, but Samantha, let's hear your
recommendations for some cozy games.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
So kind of going on the storytelling ones, I've got
two and this one, Snuffkins, is probably one of the
most cozy. Like you sit and just look at the
scenery types. The drawings are beautiful, the music is relaxing,
the characters are cut and there's a whole little story.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
It is like I think.

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
It only takes like a few hours to finish up,
because it is very like from beginning to end.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
But it's such a great till you should take a chance.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
I actually sent Annie a picture of myself getting real
cozy doing this and sent her pictures of clips of
the game because it's like, you have to see this
game she hasn't yet, but it's such a such a
fun game. And then Coffee Talk, which has a one
and two. It's really interesting, kind of goes into like
eighties nineties graphics, but it tells a whole story and
you've got to.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Make coffee throughout.

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
So I think those two are like two great storytelling games.
And then Cozy Grove if you like a haunted Bear
Island is exactly what you think.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
I love it so much and it does.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
It is also in real time, so it changes with
the seasons with you and the day and the night.
There's Donut County, So if you like mayhem and chaos
and raccoons, go for it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
I love funny.

Speaker 4 (01:07:54):
I love funny.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
There's little puzzles throughout you have to solve in order
to make things happen, whether catch on fire, are put
into a hole.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
You just go with that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
And then Lemon Cake if you like to make and
bake things. I think it's a really cute graphics and
it teaches you different recipes.

Speaker 4 (01:08:09):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
So those are my recommendations for today.

Speaker 4 (01:08:13):
I like how it could change tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
I can't good it could mine. I'm gonna disclaim I
love horror so much. These are definitely not for everyone,
and some would argue they don't count. Also, we didn't
go into this, but there's an argument about your comfort
game and your cozy game. So Last of Us two
would be my comfort game, not my cozy game. But
so mine are Oxen Free, which is just really pretty

(01:08:37):
kind of text based game. It's got a cool story.
It's very stranger Things Gone Home, which yes, we've talked about.
I won't go into it. It's really good. And then
I also liked Coffee Talk, which Samantha had me play,
and it's just really fun. It's got like vampires and
wear wolves and you're making coffee.

Speaker 4 (01:08:52):
I love it. Holy cow, I've never heard of that before.
I'll have to look that one up. As for myself, well,
one I want to mention is a game called Pentiment.
I don't know if either of you have ever seen this.
It's a game where you're playing a artist in medieval
Europe and you are illuminating manuscripts and all of the

(01:09:14):
dialogue is in word bubbles, and every character has their
own handwriting style, so like if you're talking to a monk,
it's super fancy type setting. And if you're talking to
a commoner. It's like more like Chicken Scratch. But then
murder happens, and you're essentially there to help try and
solve murders. Here's the thing about Pentiment. You're never told

(01:09:34):
what actually happened. You have to determine what you think happened,
and you come to your conclusion and you present your argument.
But even at the end of the game, you're never
told if you were right or wrong. So that's kind
of a fascinating element that I had not anticipated from

(01:09:54):
such a game. Other suggestions, I mean, Stardi Valley is
always going to be a suggestion, but we you've talked
about that, you know, ad nauseum. I would say Disney
Dreamlight Valley. If you're a total Disney nut. It's very
heavily branded to Disney, so if you're not into it,
it is not your thing. But it's very cozy And

(01:10:14):
for the Lovecraftian horror fans out there, you should play Dredge,
a creepy deep sea fishing game, but it's it's kind
of cozy. You're like running a boat and fishing in
different areas, and it's not like super It doesn't have
like a lot of twitchy elements to it, and the
story is really entertaining, but it does have a Lovecraftian

(01:10:36):
kind of weird horror energy going.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
On in that nice I'll have to look at that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:41):
It's fun. There's another game called Dave the Diver, where
by day you are diving to capture fish and by
night you run a sushi restaurant. And the funny thing
is Dave the Diver actually has a crossover with Dredge,
and they also did a crossover with Godzilla.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
Oh really, of course they did. That's that sounds. Is
this Japanese because that's the Japanese Oh really.

Speaker 4 (01:11:04):
Yeah, it's a Korean game, and it is. It is wild.
It is Uh, it's the The local translation is pretty
good for Dave the Diver, but there are little bits
where you're like, oh, this was not this was not
made in America. Uh. It is a is a fantastic game, though,
Dave the Diver and Dredge together, if you can play
the two of them, I would recommend playing Dredge first

(01:11:26):
and then Dave the Diver. Uh. They're great companion games. Well,
Annie and Samantha, this has been a great conversation. You know,
we talked about some heavy stuff, but we talked about
a lot of fun and joyful stuff too, And I
think that is uh the perfect kind of tech stuff
episode right where it's it's not all grim and dour

(01:11:47):
and dystopian, but at the same time, we take the
effort to explore the maybe you know, the the more
unseemly sides of a of a topic, because only by
addressing it can we ever hope to make things better.
That's at least my own opinion. I realize that I

(01:12:08):
may be an eternal optimist.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
Well that's a good way to be. Thank you so
much for having us. It has been a delight.

Speaker 4 (01:12:20):
Yeah, it's a great way to kind of run down
my run on tech stuff because I didn't reach out
enough to my fellow stuff podcasters. It can get so
easy for us to get into our own routines and
the grind and just trying to create episode after episode.
I don't know how it is for y'all, but for me,

(01:12:43):
there would be moments like I would wake up in
the morning and I would just start the dread of
what am I going to find to talk about this
week would start to descend upon me, and that was
enough to prevent me from even just reaching out. I
now wish one of my biggest regrets is that I
didn't reach out more to do collaborative episodes with with

(01:13:04):
my fellow Stuff podcasters, in particular because I know we
worked together so well. Because Annie and I had to
she sat at my left hand side, and poor Lauren,
who sat across from us, had to endure just an
endless supply of puns.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
True. True, we owe her a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:13:25):
Yeah, yeah, apologies. Yeah pizza maybe I don't know, but
not on a delivery app service. We talked about that
and boy those no okay, but yeah, I thank you
so much for coming on. It was it was a
real pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
Thank you so much for having us. I'm glad we
got to do this. Before you hang up your tech
stuff coach chat.

Speaker 4 (01:13:47):
Yeah, you know what, I got so little merch after
running it for sixteen and a half years. You'd think
i'd have at least a hoodie, But I've got a
T shirt where most of the lettering is peeled off. Well,
if if my listeners out there haven't heard by now,
you need to go and check out Stuff. Mom never
told you the episodes are phenomenal. You tackle pretty much

(01:14:12):
any topic you can think of. The dating episode. As
I mentioned, it was so informative and interesting to hear
because again being out of the dating game for more
than thirty years, now hearing how things have changed culturally, technologically, socially.
For one thing, I felt like I understood people better

(01:14:34):
because I'm rapidly descending into grouchy old man who yells
at Cloud's territory.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
I've been there for.

Speaker 4 (01:14:46):
Some of us. It's life goals. Honestly, you know, you
could be the person who's just like outside on the
front lawn and everyone's like, oh, that's Jonathan. It's it's
actually very freeing. For one thing, my my social calendar
is wide open now.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
Yeah that's nice.

Speaker 4 (01:15:06):
Yeah. I like it. Like it's like, hey, no obligations,
I could do whatever I want. Let's play some cozy games, y'all.
And thus my STARDUW Valley hours played just grows and
grows for all of my listeners out there, I hope
you enjoyed this episode. Go check out stuff Mom never
told you, and I will talk to you again really soon,
but only a couple more times. Tech Stuff is an

(01:15:34):
iHeartRadio production. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
And that brings us to the end of our time
on tech Stuff, where we got to talk about women
and marginalized people in the gaming world. We hope that
you enjoyed it. We always love getting suggestions from you listeners.
We've definitely taken those suggestions to heart and have played
some of those. So if you have any more or

(01:16:09):
any thoughts on any of this, please let us know.
You can email us at seventy mom Stuff at heartmeeeda
dot com. You can find us on blue Sky at
mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff
I've Never Told You. We have a YouTube page, we
have a tea public store, and we have a book
we can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as
always too, our super producer, Christina, our executive producer, and

(01:16:31):
your contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for
listening Stuffan Never Told You inspection of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.