March 20, 2024 • 53 mins
Bridget Todd joins us to break down the proposed TikTok ban in the US, what's behind it, what it means, and who it would most impact.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Never told your prediction of iHeartRadio, and today we are
once again thrilled to be joined by the amazing, the astounding,
the astonishing Brute Todd.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Welcome back, Britie.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
We love Thank you for having me. I am excited
to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yes, we are as always glad to have you back.
We were talking about this a little off mic before.
But happy belated birthday.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yes, yes, Did you do anything fun or how have
you been in general?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I have been good if my voice sounds a little
bit rasp beats, because my friends and I did birthday
karaoke over the weekend and there was lots of screaming
and singing. And I sometimes get this say where I
don't do a lot of karaoke, but I love karaoke
and I'm that person who, after a few drinks insists
on singing a ballad. And my friends got lucky because
(01:10):
the ballad that I wanted to do they did not have.
So yeah, friends one bridget zero.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Wait, so what is your go to karaoke song? This
says a lot about you.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Oh God, I think so. It depends on for a ballad.
I wanted to do an Amy Winehouse song. I wanted
to do Me and Mister Jones, which is a favorite
of mine, which they didn't have, which I feel like
is like practically a hate crime to not have a
robust Amy Winehouse selection at karaoke.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Yeah, how dare you?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
What are your go to songs?
Speaker 4 (01:43):
I am a nineties like, I'm the gen X millennial
person who has to hit my nineties hits so that
it will include TLC Destiny's Child if they have Wilson Phillips,
which I there was a TikTok video about if you
want to get slash millennials to stop arguing or stopping
their tracks, do a Wilson Phillips hold On And I'm like, well,
(02:06):
that's rude and right, but it's okat. I didn't need
that because I'm also very aware of as much as
I would love to do a Whitney Houston track, and
we usually do like dance with somebody, I want to
dance with somebody. I know her range is way out
of my league. Although past host Caroline, she does an
(02:27):
amazing condition of that song.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I believe it, actually I can see it.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, but I'm I'm that girl that
I love all of those. Then you gotta throw some
Fiona Apple in there. You know it did some Backstreet
Boys or for me in sync, I feel like those
are my go too.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Sorry I'm Backstreet Boys. Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah,
I'm kind of embarrassed. My mind different.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I have a very vary range of karaoke songs. I
like to do. Mulan Man, that's a good one.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
I will say. That's like all the producers, like our producers,
producer Andrew, producer Dylan, like, they will get together and
Ramsey will get together and do a whole rendition of
that song.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
It was quite fabulous. They do a great job.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I think at a certain point, I'm not very good
at karaoke. I love it, but I'm not very good.
And at a certain point I started thinking of like,
what are songs I know people will sing, and those
are the songs that I request Now, So I do
like the Pokemon song, which I loved Pokemon, but I
like people love it and I know the lyrics are
(03:42):
easy enough.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
My big one is I do Ludicris get Back.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Of course from Georgia.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
People like are like you have to do it before
karaoke is over, like that's the one I'm known for.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
But then I do. I just like so many songs
I want to singer, like sad songs are they're long songs,
and I don't think those are good karaoke songs.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
They're not good karaoke songs. But truth true friends will
let you do a ballad or two like that's like, yes,
I agree that good fun karaoke to watch is karaoke
where it's a silly, fun song, fast paced, everybody is
singing along. But I don't know, like you should be
able to have your little moment where you do you
demand silence so you can sing Amy Winehouse.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yes, I'm no good. Amy Winehouse is one of my
favorites as well.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
That's a good one. That's a really good long one.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Sometimes a country song is good.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
My partner I had practiced. We wanted to do a practist.
We promised we wanted to do a duet because it
was actually tennically both of our birthdays we have the
same birthday, and so right we were gonna do Love Shack.
We listened to Love Shack ten times. We had come
up with like dance moves and I don't know if
(04:59):
you know that song, but there are like different vocal
parts and we had really practice and then they didn't
have it after all that.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
What okay?
Speaker 4 (05:06):
First of all, hello University of Georgia. Be ifty dude Georgia.
Those are my people's like saying that or are im?
Speaker 1 (05:14):
How dare you? Why would I not?
Speaker 4 (05:17):
But yeah, those are challenging songs because they're their vocals
are pretty intense and the fact that they didn't have
it there and you practice, all right, can we just
do you have? Like? You should just do it online?
They do it for a TikTok video because there's lots
of karaoke apps out there, or if you're like any
you can buy your own machine machine.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yes I do. And as lights.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
It has like like it's really embarrassing, but it has
like the button you press and it goes.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
House.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
We come to Washington, d c.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Oh, Yeah, we're gonna do it.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Is it big?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
No?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
No?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah? A sign you can't see you, but you can't
see listeners. But it's like a smallish box.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah, okay, we're doing this.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
I'm so excited to get this done. She's going to
carry this on plane. But if you're doing it for TikTok.
We're gonna need to do that very quickly because ah.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Oh yeah, this is a great segue, masterful segue. Samantha
did it, and that is I mean, I feel like,
I think we might have talked about this before, but
I feel like we have to get back into it
because there's so much going on, and that is what's
happening with a potential maybe sort of TikTok band in
the United States.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Have you all been following this, Oh, I'm glad you
brought this up because I was actually going to do
this as a Monday mini in this conversation because this
is going to affect a lot of marginalized people and
we have to talk about it because this is also
this is very controversial. But I'm also confused because I
don't know where to side because there's so many people
(06:55):
on the spectrum for and against that I'm surprised by.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, this is one of those issues where you have
very strange bedfellows, Like it's bipartisan legislation and so, which,
you know, for any kind of topic, to have folks
on either side of the aisle agreeing right unanimously is
a little bit unusual. Some of the people who are
coming out against it, in my opinion, are not necessarily
(07:21):
who you would imagine. So I agree, And I guess
all of that is to say, I had a very
difficult time figuring out where I stood on this legislation.
Wasn't until pretty recently that I was like, Okay, I
feel like I have my opinion made up, but it
took me a while to get there, exactly because of
what you described, Sam.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Right, Yeah, I feel like we should we should get
into it, because again I don't really use TikTok, but
I did follow it because I was curious about what
would happen, Like, oh, if this happens, yeah, then what's
what's next.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
It's going to set a big precedent. It talks about
who's who has power of what, who is actually getting
the information that people are saying they're getting the information,
and for me, for me and you, bridget who are
actually on TikTok. Are we seeing an algorithm that is biased,
that TikTok is trying to get us on their side? Like,
there's so many questions here.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
These are all great questions, so let's get into it.
So basically, we're calling it a TikTok ban, which is
not like incorrect, but it's not technically accurate. So this
legislation that we've seen moving through the House in the
last few weeks is called protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary
controlled Applications at and it wouldn't technically ban TikTok specifically. Rather,
(08:38):
this legislation, if passed, would block social media apps that
are quote controlled by a foreign adversary in the United States.
Right now, TikTok is owned by the Chinese based parent
company byte Dance, So when it comes to TikTok, what
that would mean is that byte Dance would be forced
to sell TikTok to an American owner in order to
(08:59):
operate in the US. If this legislation were to become law.
That is kind of a tricky thing. TikTok CEO shows
Too has repeatedly said, we're not going to do that,
We're not interested in selling. Will never happen, And if
this legislation were to become law, they would have to
do this in about six months, which is not a
(09:19):
ton of time. I'm certain this would be a very
complicated transfer of power. You know, we're talking about potentially
like a multi billion dollar deal here, and so forcing
TikTok to do that in six months is it's like
a really tall order, so much so that it is
essentially a TikTok ban, even if it's not a ban
(09:40):
in a technical sense.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
So recently watched the video on several different TikTok creators,
as well as the press conference that the Chinese leaders did.
I don't know if you saw this, essentially saying it's
actually written in the contract that byt dance cannot by
law sell away from China, like they that was always
a part of the contract, that's always been there, and
(10:14):
to the point that the government, our government knew that.
So it makes me like they I and everybody's accusing.
So this is an actual ban without them saying band
trying not to be the bad guys exactly.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
So I keep seeing people being like, well, it's not
a band, it's not a band, Okay. Maybe it doesn't
use the word ban, maybe it's not a band in
the most like hyper technical sense, but functionally this is
a band, right, Like, I completely agree with you. And
even that alone is one of these things that kind
of makes me wonder about how this legislation came together.
(10:47):
You know the fact that they are going out of
their way to have a carve out to say it's
not really a band when functionally it basically is.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Right literally saying this is these these are your options
to sell or be banned, and then then the actual
company being like, well, no, it is in our contract
that we can't sell.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
So and you knew this.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
You were putting us in a rock, you know, the
rock and a hard place in that situation of like, no,
we're just going to be out, and the Chinese knows
that the US, as many users as there are, are
not the only users exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
So that actually brings up like a pretty clear next
question of whether or not there is a someone who
would buy this right like TikTok. It would probably be
a multi billion dollar sale tip to acquire TikTok, and
there's not really a lot of people who have emerged
who are you know, in a position to buy this. However,
(11:47):
former Trump administration Treasury Secretary Steve Menuchin said last week
that he's actually putting together an investor group to buy TikTok. So, yeah,
a former Trump administration official could own it. Now I've
put that into a little bit of context. That would
mean that Elon Musk owns Twitter, Manonchin would own TikTok,
(12:08):
and that would really be a huge change in our
social media landscape. In my opinion, I don't think that
would be a change for the better necessarily.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Right, we already know what's happening with I misinformation on
Facebook and who dictates all of that, which is very
concerning in itself. So that means all of I mean,
I will say. Someone said, and this is a whole
different conversation that Reddit is becoming the new safe space.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Oh that's so interesting because I've actually found myself. I
was like a Reddit power user back in the day,
and then I stopped using it so much. I started
using Twitter and Instagram more. Now I'm back on Reddit,
and there's something about it because like, for me, I
really need to have a reliable text based social media
(12:56):
platform as much as I like TikTok, you know, I
need to. I need to. I'm I'm a words person,
Like I like to read words. I like to write words.
Being on camera on video, which is a different thing.
I like watching other people be on video and be
on camera. But I'm a words person and I think,
like so, Reddit has kind of re emerged as a
(13:17):
place where I'm spending more and more of my time
and it's actually feeling pretty good.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah, and I think I don't think you're the only one.
Like I said, people are calling that kind of the
safe space because if they're actually well monitored and you're
going to uh, you know, the subreddit that is specifically
for you, that it has been well moderated in an
affair and like objective manner, and peopleally really like trusting
that system more now because they're worried about TikTok. But
(13:44):
back to like we need to talk about what exactly
is this legislation that they're trying to pull.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
So it passed the House last week and now it
goes to the Senate. President Biden has already said that
if it passes the Senate, he will sign it in law.
White House Press Secretary Karine Jean Pierre said that the
Biden administration is really looking to the Senate to act
quickly on this legislation, and so like it could be
something that moves fast. However, I will say that as
(14:13):
quickly as this legislation passed the House, passing the Senate
is looking like it might be a little bit more complicated.
A bipartisan group of senators is already sort of signaling
that they would not necessarily be down for voting for
a TikTok ban. For instance, Senator ran Paul described the
bill as a quote draconian measure that stifles free expression,
(14:34):
tramples the constitutional rights, and disrupts the economic pursuits of
millions of Americans. Senator Ed Markey, a Democrat from Massachusetts,
argued that the privacy issues that the bill is meant
to be, you know, addressing, exist far beyond TikTok. So
it does kind of seem like it might not be
the kind of thing that is quickly and unanimously passed
in the Senate. It might there might be some some
(14:56):
pushback there.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Yeah, what I understood. Let Schumer, who is the lead
in the Senate, was saying that he is in no
hurry to even look at this bill because they have
been kind of inundated with a lot of opposition. Again,
and this is one of those moments when you said
Ran Paul, Ran Paul and Marjorie Taylor Green all opposing
this makes me think that I'm on the wrong side
(15:20):
if I sort of agree with them.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah, I mean listen, so you're exactly right. Chuck Schumer
didn't really have anything to say about the legislation and
the way that he's I forget how he said it exactly,
but like to me, it signaled I am not taking
a position on this, and I'm in no hurry to
make us a priority. That's what it looks like to me.
You're so right that the people who are for and
(15:44):
against it is so because usually it's like whatever Margory
Taylor Green is for, I am probably against and vice versa. Right,
But you know, even I think last week former President
Trump came out against a TikTok band, which that's a
reversal of previous positions, right, So it's like it is
very difficult to figure out where different elected officials stand
(16:06):
on this and use it's difficult to use that as
a barometer for where as an individual folks listening should stand.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
I think there's so many conversations because we've already talked
about the original band that we were talking about long
tap ago with a show to coming in front of
the Senate testifying, and then the xenophobic comments that happened
time after time and time after time, and this is
a whole different conversation that I have to have with
myself as an Asian person because we have talked, we
(16:35):
haven't talked much about the fact that there's a lot
of misinformation and there's a lot of kind of conspiracy
theories that the US is xenophobic tactics from the past,
and that communism is not good. Don't get me wrong
in all of this, but the level of evilizing and
(16:56):
condemning of the places like China and North Korea again
not good. But a part of that conversation is because
they're not Christian enough. That has been a part of
that too. That makes me wonder how much of this
is a colonized idea of what they expected China and
these other countries to become and when they are of
(17:17):
power because they are not Christian nations? Is that that
is that part of their what they see as evil
of these places and then being successful.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
I mean, you really can't have a conversation about the
way this legislation has been moving without talking about xenophobia,
and I wish that wasn't the case, but it is
American elected officials who are making that the case. Like
I wish we could have this conversation about the merits
of this legislation. However, when you have elected officials in
(17:48):
hearings making blatantly xenophobic and anti Asian comments to TikTok CEO's,
you have to talk about it like it is. It
is just inherently heard the conversation. It makes it so
that you cannot talk about the legislation on its own
without talking about the sort of like rhetoric that you're
describing here, and it really does us a disservice. I think,
(18:11):
because the American people deserve to see the merits of
legislation you know discussed. I think that any person who
is a CEO of the company as big and as
influential as TikTok should be comfortable being grilled in front
of elected officials, and the American public should have a
sense of, like, where what they're thinking about. However, when
(18:32):
you retreat into these harmful anti Asian xenophobic stereotypes and
claims and theories, you are doing everybody at disservice because
we don't get that right. We're talking about the xenophobia,
and we have to talk about the xenophobia because you
brought it up, you injected it into the conversation, does
that make sense.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
The entire time the entire time, and calling them the
enemy state. Again, don't get me wrong, I know that
the history is complicated. The Chinese government has done a
lot of bad things. The US government has done a
lot of bad things. And then this is like the
back and forth of like what is happening? But then
also it kind of comes down to the fact that
again maybe because I do enjoy TikTok and I do
(19:12):
go through and like love my dog videos, I love
my cue little animal, I saw honors the'ed adorable, I
want one, but like all these things and making it
seem like if they shut down TikTok, and it's like
that is shutting down the voice of the people. And
it's kind of interesting to see what TikTok is doing
and trying to respond to the governments like us against
(19:35):
them like seemingly totally.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
So some of y'all might have gotten like big alerts
when you tried to open TikTok the last few days,
urging you to call your member of Congress and tell
them that you do not want a TikTok. Band I
actually didn't get one. Maybe maybe they know that I'm
in DC, and like there's not a member of Congress
that I could call. I could call Eleanor Holmes Norton,
but she doesn't get a vote, So like there's really
they're maybe they're like, we're not gonna waste our time
(20:00):
getting bridget with this ad. But the alert reads stop
a TikTok shut down. Congress is planning a total ban
of TikTok. Speak up now before your government strips one
hundred and seventy million Americans of their constitutional right to
free expression. This will damage millions of businesses, destroy the
livelihoods of countless creators across the country, and deny artists
and audience. Let Congress know what TikTok means. Over the weekend,
(20:22):
they also did a push notification that folks might have
gotten to their phones pretty much saying the same thing.
It honestly does sound like this is working. Congressional staffers
say that their phones were like ringing off the hook.
One house GOP staffer told Politico that it was so
so bad. Our phones have not stopped bringing their teenagers
and old people, saying they spend their whole day on
the app and we cannot take it away.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
You know, one creator was talking about the fact that
they actually said there was a lot of millennial women,
a lot of millennial women calling in. They were kind
of surprised how many millennial women and when a middle
aged and millennial women were calling in talking about this
was going to affect their business.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah. Actually, Essence just put out a really really interesting
article about how many specifically black women entrepreneurs and creators
were really using TikTok to promote their businesses and like
find a foothold and in ways that they were unable
to do on other platforms, and how much a TikTok
ban was concerning to them and their livelihoods economically, and
(21:23):
so that doesn't surprise me at all. I also wanted
to make one other comment about that, which is that
I think that TikTok has a reputation of being like
a young person's app, and certainly it has a lot
of young users. However, the average TikTok users age is thirty, right,
and so that's like I would call a thirty year
old young, but like a thirty year old votes, you know,
(21:45):
like these are people who, you know, we're not talking
about a children's app. And I think that perception is
really not correct, and I think that's the perception that people.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Have right, which is an interesting because I know the
original idea of TikTok was younger users, much younger. It
was like the dance app, which I like dancing. I
want to see people dance. I can't do those moves,
but I want to see them. But it was it
was interesting, and I know that that's the big conversation
(22:16):
of like who is using it, who this is affecting,
and who is able to get on it. Of course
we've already had that conversation with like how quickly that's
changing to and how quickly they will shadow band many
a marginalized communities. But that's the hair there totally. And
so just one other thing about these these push notifications
and stuff. I have seen a lot of people say
(22:36):
that TikTok urging users to take political action is evidence
enough that the app is bad. That they're like demanding
that teenagers call their congress person or whatever, and that like,
you shouldn't have an app telling young people what to.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Do or whatever. But this is so common for tech
companies to do. Both Uber and Lyft have sent out
similar push notifications asking for users to contact congress or
do certain things. And so TikTok is not the only
tech company or app that has done this kind of thing,
and people trying to act like this push notification action
(23:11):
was completely beyond the pale. It's certainly not. It happens
all the.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Time, right, which I feel like if I remember correctly Twitter,
different Twitter accounts would have the like you know, you
could have the one link and they would often do
like at least like petitions. I remember during a lot
of the Black Lives Matter stuff and many of the
murdering of the black community, they would have links and
petitions that would happen through Twitter. So none of these
(23:37):
things are new. I'm wondering again, and I know this
is that bigger conversation of like, maybe I'm just too
caught up in some conspiracy theories. But some of the
conversations that have happened with the pro Palestinian movement and
what's happening there and many consider genicide, I consider a
genocide happening there, that TikTok has been one of the
(24:00):
biggest platforms to actually have conversations about that and through
that because they do have like the link tree that
do have petitions and alerts and all of these things
like that has happened, and I know there's a conversation
about whether or not that's part of this motivation.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Totally. I have so much to say about that. I
will say first, I think a lot of the conversation
around how conversations about what's happening in Palestine are unfolding
on TikTok. I think a lot of the conversation about that,
to me feels a little bit ageist and condescending, Like
it's this idea that like, oh, well, if young people
(24:38):
are you know, if they feel a certain way about
what's happening in Palestine, certainly is a Certainly that is
a problem, and it is it is TikTok's fault, as
opposed to saying like, well, maybe young people are smart
and with it and like looked at looked at the
information available to them and came to a conclusion, and
you know, treating that with the respect that it does.
(25:00):
I see a lot of older elected officials sort of
handwringing and being like, oh, well, the only way that
our kids could come to this conclusion is that if
this app is like tricking them into it, and so
there have been a lot of interesting conversations about how
that fits into this legislation to potentially ban TikTok, this
(25:22):
concern about where young people are finding themselves when it
comes to conversations about Palestine.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I guess this brings us to a question. Then I
feel like the answer is kind of clear. We've kind
of talked about it ear last. A part of it's clear,
why is this happening in the first place, bridget.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
It's a great question. So if you take these lawmakers
at their word, if you take the name of the
legislation at its word, lawmakers say that TikTok is a
national security risk because it's owned by China, and that
the app app could be compelled by the Chinese government
to manipulate public opinion because you know, they are you know,
TikTok does have this like super powerful algorithm that they
(26:09):
can use to boost certain content, suppress certain content, that
they could collect mass data on Americans or even spy
on individual Americans. And so that's sort of like what
lawmakers are saying they are trying to prevent with this legislation.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Okay, but is that actually the thing?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
So I should say here, this is a little above
my pay grade. But as somebody who has done a
lot of looking into this and had many, many, many
interviews on it, this threat, my understanding, this threat is
just purely hypothetical. You know, the Intercept is published a
piece about how when pushed on these threats and like,
when asked, you know, what is the threat? Is the
(26:52):
rest smoking gun? The FBI uses phrases like oh, China
could do X, y Z if they wanted to, China
could potentially do right, it seems to me that there
is not a smoking gun or like hard evidence that
this is happening or there's a plan for this to happen. Now,
you might be listening and saying like, well, why should
(27:13):
we have to wait until there's a smoking gun? Why
should we have to wait until there's evidence that this
is happening? And that's a fair point, But as of
right now, they would be passing this law to deal
with a hypothetical or potential threat that currently there is
just not evidence that's going on.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Right.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
One of another creator that I was looking at has
actually posted I think a recent list showing that the
likelihood of information being farmed and Facebook and Amazon and
Instagram were top three while TikTok was actually a number twelve.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yes, so I'm so glad that you brought that up.
The fact of the matter is is that we have
a social media and digital landscape that is just rife
with bad actors and corporate interests and operations who are
doing bad things, in some cases breaking the law to
make money off of us and to exploit us. That
(28:07):
is just a fact. I don't like it, nobody should
like it, but it is what it is. And so
this legislation to me, really seems like it's cracking down
on TikTok for having the same problems and same issues
that Facebook, Google, Twitter all have, for exploiting us in
the same potentially exploiting us in the same ways that
(28:28):
every other social media platform has, but regulating them because
it's China. And this is my opinion, I think that
this is really more about the United States wanting to
remain the top dog when it comes to big tech, right,
Like I think I saw some joke that was like, oh,
like China wants my data, don't they know that's reserved
(28:52):
for Mark Zuckerberg. I think that's exactly what's going on here.
I think that lawmakers have figured out that by you know,
being tough on TikTok, they can one you know, act
tough on taking down China, and two make it seem
like they are sort of being tough on big tech
while actually doing nothing when it comes to regulate big tech.
(29:14):
Because just the fact of the matter is big tech
companies enjoy a pretty cozy relationship financially with a lot
of elected officials, and so if they were actually to
talk tough big on American big tech, that conversation might
get a little bit thorny. But by regulating TikTok in
this way, they kind of get the points and the
appearance of being like we're taking on big tech or
(29:37):
really doing nothing about taking on big tech.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
I mean, we know that they let some laws drop,
some policies drop in order to protect tech companies and
their liability way back when, and have been doing so
for a minute. But I think it's interesting and I'm
sure you've seen this Jeff Jackson, Representative Jeff Jackson, who
actually really made his headway in TikTok, Like his videos,
(30:01):
his like common sense takes seemingly in Congress really like
had him going like really high in the polls and everybody.
People were talking about him being president, him being so
great for like being common sense and all these things,
and then he got called out for voting yes to
the TikTok ban, which made him like this the people
(30:22):
that followed him made that for him, and then him
coming back on saying that, you know, I don't think
it's going to be banned. It's not gonna be banned.
It's fine, it's fine. No, I'm just a little concerned
because you know, what's in my ear. What's in my ear?
And then on top of that, people showing why some
of these possibly like the conspiracy theories about why and
this the different people who are paying the lobbyists who
(30:44):
are coming through who are actually pushing this narrative really hard.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
I mean, it's some of these aren't conspiracy theories, right,
Like we know that Facebook or Meta has pumped so
much money into anti TikTok like negative pr right. Facebook
worked with a company called Targeted Victory to get like
negative op eds about TikTok placed in newspapers so that
(31:11):
elected officials would see them like this is a documented thing, right,
Like I don't think anybody at Facebook would deny this
is happening. It's it's like a matter of public fact,
and so we do got to ask some questions about why,
because certainly a TikTok ban would be great for Facebook
and great for Mark Zuckerberg, and they're certainly spending a
(31:31):
lot of money to push a certain negative public perception
of TikTok with elected officials. Like I remember when there
was a hearing a couple last year about TikTok, and
Facebook had paid targeted Victory to put op eds in
papers about like how young people had really unfortunately died
(31:54):
or hurt themselves doing so called TikTok challenges, however, obscuring
the reality that some of those TikTok challenges actually originated
on Facebook. Right. And so it's like, rather than having
the conversation about, well, what platforms were actually responsible for
this harm, and like, like, let's talk about this harm
to kids, which we should be doing, it's just a
way of making TikTok the boogeyman and letting Facebook off
(32:18):
the hook for harms that they also participate in.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
Right, And kind of related back to our shops. When
we're talking about TikTok shops, there's a conversation that Amazon
have jumped on board because they have lost cells due
to TikTok shops. So that's a whole different conversation. Again,
so many things that you're like, why are you doing this?
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Yeah, money, I mean everybody, everybody has a stake in
this a little bit like Amazon and Jeff Bezos certainly
have a financial stake in what's going to happen with
TikTok because TikTok is really aggressively pushing TikTok shop as
a way to compete with online retailers like Amazon, and
(33:01):
so Amazon obviously has a financial stake in what happens
with TikTok. And so we just got to be more honest,
I think, and have a bit more of an honest
assessment of the major players and why they might be
taking the positions that they're taking.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Right, but let's say all this is just hearsay and conspiracies,
as I'm saying, even though we've talked about it's not.
Is TikTok trying to balance out the fears?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
So they are. TikTok's attempt to balance out these fears
is what they're calling Project Texas. So TikTok has committed
to spend one point five billion dollars on this plan,
which would essentially enact a firewall between TikTok and employees
of its Chinese based parent company, fight Dance. It would
sort of set up this United States based firm called
(33:46):
Oracle as a kind of a watchdog to scrutinize TikTok
source code and I guess like act like a third
party monitor for potential security risks. So basically they're like, Okay,
if you are so worried about it, we will set
up this firewall and we will put it America tech
firm in charge of being a watchdog to make sure
everything is on the up and app Will that actually
be enough to satisfy these lawmakers? It sounds like the
(34:08):
answer is no so far, Like, I have not actually
seen a lot of people talking about Project Texas as
a thing that is actually going to ameliorate the concerns
that these lawmakers are saying that they have.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
I'm trying to imagine if they chose the name Project
Texas to try to wow.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
I'm sure like, oh my gosh, what conveys like patriotism
and like Americanism and like oh United States, Project Texas,
Freedom Texas.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Now this is really interesting to me because I had
to take a moment. I was reading up about this
because again I was just curious about what would happen,
and I was reminded of you know, when I was
in China. You know, Twitter's band, Facebook is band, Instagram's banned,
Google's not allowed, Google left voluntarily.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
But then it's kind of like no.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
But everybody used a VPN to just like use it anyway.
So I was just thinking about, like, what would that be,
what was that going to look like. It's just it's
a really fascinating kind of terrifying thing. But I guess
the last time you were here, we were talking about this,
(35:26):
and you know, we were talking about still the same
things of which I know we'll get to later about
you know, marginalized communities being affected, because again in China,
that was a huge blow that they couldn't use these things.
But also you know, having these spaces is really important.
But they do have their issues, and last time you
(35:48):
were here, you were talking about like TikTok and what
is going on there with their issues.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Totally, So someone listening to this might be like, wow,
Bridget is like being paid by TikTok or something, although,
as we discussed, I am wearing a TikTok sweatshirt right
now that I got as a free swag from an event,
only because it's the Comfy's sweatshirt I've ever worn. However,
like I will be the first person to tell you
all the different ways that I think that TikTok is
(36:14):
messing up, I don't want to make it, see Mike,
I think TikTok is great. It definitely has very big
issues that deserve to be talked about, that they deserve
to be made accountable for, you know, just like any
social media platform in twenty twenty four, there are some
very valid concerns around TikTok and security and other things too,
And anybody who tells you that there isn't just does
(36:35):
not know the fact. So we talked about how a
lawmakers are concerned that TikTok could like spy on Americans.
They actually have kind of done that already, you know.
There were reports that TikTok access journalist information to identify
which employees were leaking information about the platform. TikTok basically
admitted to doing this, according to an internal email. They
(36:56):
were asked about this, and they were like, well, it's
not really spy, and I mean, like, it does sound
like spying to me, you know, I get what they're
kind of saying that it's not like they were spying
on random American citizens for no reason. They were spying
on specifically journalists to answer a specific question. To me,
spying is spying, So like, it's not like they have
(37:17):
a squeaky clean record on that, which I think people
should just be aware of. Also, there's like plenty of
other non spying reasons that your average person who uses
TikTok or like has a child or a sibling or
something that uses TikTok should be concerned about, right, what
issues when it comes to moderation, Like Sam was talking
about how TikTok impacts mental health, one of the things
(37:40):
I wish that you talked about more is just like
how addictive these platforms are, how they are intentionally made
to keep you scrolling for longer and longer and longer,
even when they know this is actually harming them, this
is actually making them feel bad, Like they like, this
is they know this right, this is not this is
not news to them, and yet they still design their
(38:03):
platforms to be as addictive as possible. These are questions
I wish we had answers to right, things like algorithmic
suppression or algorithmic manipulation, like are they showing you some
things and not showing you other things? And why? Of course,
the spread of things like mis and disinformation and pushing
users into extremist content. But as much as these are
things that we should be talking about, none of them
(38:25):
are specific to just TikTok, And so I have a
problem with this idea that the reason the only reason
that we should care about these issues is when the
platform is owned by a Chinese based parent company. I
don't understand why we can't then say like, okay, well,
if these are problems, let's actually address the problem, and
let's actually call out the different corporations for doing the
(38:47):
exact same thing, because it's not just TikTok, and it
makes it seem like they're making TikTok into this singular boogeyman,
when anybody who has used Facebook or Twitter or Instagram
knows that is not the case.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
Mean, Twitter in itself is a cesspool of white supremacist,
not neo Nazi movements.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about this too, because I
was like, you know, it's it's really if we lose TikTok,
we've already kind of lost Twitter, Like we're losing these spaces.
It's and they were important, Like there there is such
a use and a value in them, and it is
(39:41):
sometimes I feel like when people don't use them or
they don't understand them, they dismiss that they're just like,
but there is so much happening and so much being
shared that is important on them. We already lost Twitter.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Yeah, I mean, like I think that context is really
important of what will it be like when if there
is no TikTok and Twitter is functionally not usable, you know,
for particularly for marginalized people, right, Like, you know, I
feel like I cannot use Twitter without seeing transphobia, racism,
(40:21):
horrible conspiracy theories, harassment, and so it's not a platform
that I can really tolerate spending a lot of time
on anymore so for marginalized people who do not want
to be subjected to that kind of nonsense. Where if
we lose TikTok, where's the organizing happening? Right again, to
add even a little more context, folks might have seen
a couple of weeks ago that Meta made an announcement
(40:43):
that they were going to be deprioritizing content about political
and social issues, right, and so if they are making
that choice, and it's going to be that much harder
for political and social issues, which Meta has a track
record of really defining those issues as issues pertaining to women,
queer folks, trans folks, black folks, Right, those are the
issues when they say political issues and social issues from
(41:06):
their own behavior, like that is what they mean. They
have a whole track record of suppressing content about abortion
access and Palestinian activism and black activism and things that
pertain to marginalized communities. So that being the case, where
are these where are we supposed to do our organizing?
Where are we supposed to build power online? Particularly given
(41:29):
that building power online has been so important to traditionally
marginalized communities, It's really a deep question that I'm quite concerned.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
About, right, And Honestly, platforms like TikTok really help with
brand new creators, Like this is where you can see
like there's not nepotism working. It's literally people who go
viral for whatever reason, good or bad, but essentially they're
just making it on their own whether it's sure algorithm
has everything to do with it, but we're able to
(41:58):
see more and more content from like everyday people, like
every day people who get to do great content, and
people can pick and choose who they want to follow
and who they don't want to follow, and it's actually
something that they do on their own. And I know
YouTube once upon a time was that kind of same
idea as well. But with this level of like needing
to be ad sponsored on YouTube, that kind of has
(42:20):
gone away. You already need a connection, whether it's through
an agency, whether it's through something to actually make big
again on YouTube, as where TikTok has kind of become
that new YouTube where you can be discovered as a
brand new thing.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Yeah. In that article I mentioned in essence about the
black women entrepreneurs who were really concerned about a TikTok ban,
that was something they really made clear is that on YouTube,
in order to find success, you have to have a
kind of like already have some sort of name or connection.
It is very difficult to sort of start from zero
and start building up. I'm hearing that YouTube shorts, this
(42:53):
sort of like new TikTok competitor on YouTube might be
a little easier. So like that's a platform that folks
might to check out. But it just goes to show that,
like it's just so hard to use social media to
build a platform for yourself. And with all of these changes,
and with the different platforms changing so rapidly, not to
(43:16):
mention the overall landscape changing so rapidly, that is certainly
going to hurt marginalize people the most, people who don't
necessarily have access to like traditional media outlets and like
legacy media and things like that. And so it's just
really clear to me that we are potentially gearing up
to a digital media landscape where it is that much
harder for underrepresented voices to be heard equitably and in
(43:41):
a way that's truly representative.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
Right, So, with all of that and all the conversations
that I'm throwing out, with all the things that I've
seen on my algorithm, what do you kind of lay
out there what you think is really happening right now?
Speaker 3 (43:56):
So, as I said, I think that lawmakers have really
sent that like they need to be cracking down on TikTok.
It will help them kind of look tough on China,
will also kind of help them look like they're doing
something to reign in big tech, even though they're not.
I think that the United States really wants to remain
a major player when it comes to big tech, but
also the like massively lucrative data collection industry. I think
(44:20):
that like this is really about that concern to me,
because you know, if you really wanted better data privacy,
which we should have, it does not begin an end
with banning TikTok are, especially when all of our data
is essentially for sale to whoever wants it, which if
you're an American, I'm sorry to report that it's just true.
(44:42):
Anybody out there who wants to buy your address, your
phone number, really any piece of information about you can
do that, and they can do it legally, And so
that's to me, that's something that seems bad, and that
includes countries like China. Only a few weeks ago, back
in February, I signed an executive order that ostensibly was
(45:03):
meant to limit the sale of some of our data
to quote countries of concern. But this order really just
puts some limitations on the sales of American data. As
Wired points out, US data brokers need only take a
few steps to ensure that overseas customers follow certain security
requirements during the transfer, many of which were already required
(45:25):
by law. So I really just have a hard time
understanding why TikTok is such a threat given that China
would not even need TikTok to get our data. As
long as they follow certain guidelines, they can legally buy
it the same as anybody else.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
It is just literally like, okay, so you didn't give
us money for it, that's why we want to be Yes,
we couldn't make a profit out of it. Which is
hilarious because I think I've received in the last three
months alone at least four different letters telling me that
my data has been breached by all these different companies.
My healthcare told me I have got a breach. My
(46:01):
insurance told me I gotta breach. I want to say,
my h one of my credit cards got to breach.
My bank that has my mortgage, you gotta breach. So
I'm like, uh, some everybody's got my data. According to
my information, they all have it.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
Yeah, that is just the state of being an American.
It's like every like you wake up, buy a coffee
and then you had a notification five seconds later. That's like, oh,
we got we got it, we got you whatever, whatever
information that you have, we have right.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
And what's so even funnier to me is instead of
people actually, instead of the government's changing or going after
these people a hardcore I'm sure if like small fish
get actual jail time or whatever whatnot, I'm being Instead
all of these agencies and corporations are changing their terms
of agreement to tell me that I can't suit them
for their bad they're bad breach.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
Yeah, if anybody uses Roku you might have seen recently,
you had to agree to some new terms and conditions,
and those terms and conditions were like, you can't sue
if we do something wrong to you.
Speaker 4 (47:01):
If you reach information, you can't see us. We're listening
all your money if.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
You want to us, if you want to watch this
episode of Gilmore Girls, you have to give away your
ability to sue us.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
I mean, like, what's so funny is every single individual
network I stold us to, like Hulu has sened that
out and I was like, what the hell is this?
And the other part to all of those like for Roku,
the only way you can opt out is by sending
them a physical letter.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Doesn't that really tell you everything about how these companies
are showing up in this day and age that like, yes,
and I guess like to close, like that's sort of
I just think that that dynamic, the dynamic that says
that American tech companies can do whatever they want to you,
take whatever they want from you, exploits you in any
(47:51):
way they want make money from you and your kids
however they see fit if it makes them richer, and
there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
I think that that is really what we're up against here.
I think that people are sick of it. And I
think that this whole song and dance about TikTok really
highlights that it's not just about this one app. It
is about an entire rotten ecosystem where we are being
(48:12):
exploited to make somebody else fitcher and I think people
have really come to see that, like that is what
we need to be talking about. That is what we
need to be really deeply rethinking and reassessing.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Yeah, And I think one of the things I love
about when you come on Bridget and your show is
that there are so many things that are so gatekeeping
in the technology world, where so many things have been
invented or crafted by women marginalized communities, and then are
(48:43):
like overtaken, are bought by people, and it is a
way of keeping us off out of these spaces.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Like you can.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
There are just numerous examples of times where it's like, well, Okay,
I can't use this anymore because I'll run into all
this hateful stuff. I can't use this anymore because I'll
run into all this hateful stuff. So I it is
a really important issue in terms of intersectionality and feminism,
and as we're moving into elections, oh my god, like
(49:14):
I'm just so concerned about a lot of it.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
But it is like.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
If we again did lose TikTok, it would be another
space where that's gone, can't show up anymore.
Speaker 3 (49:28):
Yeah, And you know, women, people of color, trans folks,
queer folks, we are technology, like we are what makes
technology what it is. We have been at the forefront
of all of this, of computers becoming commonplace, of cell
phones becoming what they are, of smartphones, iPhones, all of it.
(49:50):
We have been at the forefront of that since the
very beginning. And so I guess I just want to
challenge anybody listening whether you're for a talk band against it.
Never use TikTok, never would use it. Really see this
domain and these conversations and these spaces as yours to
(50:11):
be part of, yours, to take up space, and yours
to show up in, yours to care about. I think
a big part of that sort of gatekeeping that you
spoke about, Annie is this idea that we A don't
belong in these spaces, which is bs we do, we
invented them, You're welcome, or B that we can't be
involved in them because we're not smart enough. You don't
(50:31):
have the background, whatever, whatever. I don't have any kind
of hard tech degree or anything. You don't need a
hard tech degree to know when you're being taken advantage
of by a tech leader. You don't need a degree
in it to know when a digital experience does not
feel good, It is not validating, and it is exploitative. Right.
You are the expert of your technological experience, and don't
let any of these tech bro losers tell you otherwise.
(50:55):
You are smarter than Elon Musk, whoever listening to this.
You are smarter than Musk. I guarantee it. I don't
know who you are, but I can guarantee you Elon
Musk is stupider than you are. For sure.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
I mean he's bankrupted two companies.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
Have you yet comment companies that you bankrupted? Probably none.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Writing Samantha sent me a TikTok recently about the study
about how male gamers who are bad are the ones
that are real pissed off right, And we talked about this,
Bridget in our episode we did on gate keeping and
online gaming, and.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
I was like, yeah, see, you guys just suck.
Speaker 4 (51:37):
Most of the trolls who were on the gaming network
were the ones who were actually really bad at the game.
Those are the only trolls that you released.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Yes, I'm good, I'm a good gamer.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Don't come in my space.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
You suck and you're taking it out of Andie stop it.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Yes, well, we always love having you, Bridget. Thank you
so much. I'm sure we'll be following up on this.
We'll see what happens. But in the meantime, where can
the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (52:06):
You can check out my podcast. There are no girls
on the Internet. You can find me on Instagram at
Bridget brandyc on Blue Sky, at Bridget Todd, on threads
at I think my thread's name is the same as
my Instagram name. I think I have to double check
if that's true, but you can try that.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
And you can find me on TikTok at Bridget Todd
makes pods.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Yes, and you should do that if you haven't already.
Listeners and check out all Bridget has done on this
show for sure. Yes, thank you for being here and listeners.
If you would like to contact us, you can our
email at Stephanie moms Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You
can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or
on Instagram and TikTok stuff.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
I've Never told You.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
We have a tea public store, and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always too, our super producer Christina or executive producer Maya,
and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
for listening. Steffan Never told You is Fritch and by
heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you
can check out the Heart Radio Apple Podcasts wherever you
listen to favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Never told your prediction of iHeartRadio, and today we are
once again thrilled to be joined by the amazing, the astounding,
the astonishing Brute Todd.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Welcome back, Britie.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
We love Thank you for having me. I am excited
to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yes, we are as always glad to have you back.
We were talking about this a little off mic before.
But happy belated birthday.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yes, yes, Did you do anything fun or how have
you been in general?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I have been good if my voice sounds a little
bit rasp beats, because my friends and I did birthday
karaoke over the weekend and there was lots of screaming
and singing. And I sometimes get this say where I
don't do a lot of karaoke, but I love karaoke
and I'm that person who, after a few drinks insists
on singing a ballad. And my friends got lucky because
(01:10):
the ballad that I wanted to do they did not have.
So yeah, friends one bridget zero.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Wait, so what is your go to karaoke song? This
says a lot about you.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Oh God, I think so. It depends on for a ballad.
I wanted to do an Amy Winehouse song. I wanted
to do Me and Mister Jones, which is a favorite
of mine, which they didn't have, which I feel like
is like practically a hate crime to not have a
robust Amy Winehouse selection at karaoke.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Yeah, how dare you?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
What are your go to songs?
Speaker 4 (01:43):
I am a nineties like, I'm the gen X millennial
person who has to hit my nineties hits so that
it will include TLC Destiny's Child if they have Wilson Phillips,
which I there was a TikTok video about if you
want to get slash millennials to stop arguing or stopping
their tracks, do a Wilson Phillips hold On And I'm like, well,
(02:06):
that's rude and right, but it's okat. I didn't need
that because I'm also very aware of as much as
I would love to do a Whitney Houston track, and
we usually do like dance with somebody, I want to
dance with somebody. I know her range is way out
of my league. Although past host Caroline, she does an
(02:27):
amazing condition of that song.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I believe it, actually I can see it.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, but I'm I'm that girl that
I love all of those. Then you gotta throw some
Fiona Apple in there. You know it did some Backstreet
Boys or for me in sync, I feel like those
are my go too.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Sorry I'm Backstreet Boys. Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah,
I'm kind of embarrassed. My mind different.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I have a very vary range of karaoke songs. I
like to do. Mulan Man, that's a good one.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
I will say. That's like all the producers, like our producers,
producer Andrew, producer Dylan, like, they will get together and
Ramsey will get together and do a whole rendition of
that song.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
It was quite fabulous. They do a great job.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I think at a certain point, I'm not very good
at karaoke. I love it, but I'm not very good.
And at a certain point I started thinking of like,
what are songs I know people will sing, and those
are the songs that I request Now, So I do
like the Pokemon song, which I loved Pokemon, but I
like people love it and I know the lyrics are
(03:42):
easy enough.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
My big one is I do Ludicris get Back.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Of course from Georgia.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
People like are like you have to do it before
karaoke is over, like that's the one I'm known for.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
But then I do. I just like so many songs
I want to singer, like sad songs are they're long songs,
and I don't think those are good karaoke songs.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
They're not good karaoke songs. But truth true friends will
let you do a ballad or two like that's like, yes,
I agree that good fun karaoke to watch is karaoke
where it's a silly, fun song, fast paced, everybody is
singing along. But I don't know, like you should be
able to have your little moment where you do you
demand silence so you can sing Amy Winehouse.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yes, I'm no good. Amy Winehouse is one of my
favorites as well.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
That's a good one. That's a really good long one.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Sometimes a country song is good.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
My partner I had practiced. We wanted to do a practist.
We promised we wanted to do a duet because it
was actually tennically both of our birthdays we have the
same birthday, and so right we were gonna do Love Shack.
We listened to Love Shack ten times. We had come
up with like dance moves and I don't know if
(04:59):
you know that song, but there are like different vocal
parts and we had really practice and then they didn't
have it after all that.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
What okay?
Speaker 4 (05:06):
First of all, hello University of Georgia. Be ifty dude Georgia.
Those are my people's like saying that or are im?
Speaker 1 (05:14):
How dare you? Why would I not?
Speaker 4 (05:17):
But yeah, those are challenging songs because they're their vocals
are pretty intense and the fact that they didn't have
it there and you practice, all right, can we just
do you have? Like? You should just do it online?
They do it for a TikTok video because there's lots
of karaoke apps out there, or if you're like any
you can buy your own machine machine.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yes I do. And as lights.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
It has like like it's really embarrassing, but it has
like the button you press and it goes.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
House.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
We come to Washington, d c.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Oh, Yeah, we're gonna do it.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Is it big?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
No?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
No?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah? A sign you can't see you, but you can't
see listeners. But it's like a smallish box.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah, okay, we're doing this.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
I'm so excited to get this done. She's going to
carry this on plane. But if you're doing it for TikTok.
We're gonna need to do that very quickly because ah.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Oh yeah, this is a great segue, masterful segue. Samantha
did it, and that is I mean, I feel like,
I think we might have talked about this before, but
I feel like we have to get back into it
because there's so much going on, and that is what's
happening with a potential maybe sort of TikTok band in
the United States.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Have you all been following this, Oh, I'm glad you
brought this up because I was actually going to do
this as a Monday mini in this conversation because this
is going to affect a lot of marginalized people and
we have to talk about it because this is also
this is very controversial. But I'm also confused because I
don't know where to side because there's so many people
(06:55):
on the spectrum for and against that I'm surprised by.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, this is one of those issues where you have
very strange bedfellows, Like it's bipartisan legislation and so, which,
you know, for any kind of topic, to have folks
on either side of the aisle agreeing right unanimously is
a little bit unusual. Some of the people who are
coming out against it, in my opinion, are not necessarily
(07:21):
who you would imagine. So I agree, And I guess
all of that is to say, I had a very
difficult time figuring out where I stood on this legislation.
Wasn't until pretty recently that I was like, Okay, I
feel like I have my opinion made up, but it
took me a while to get there, exactly because of
what you described, Sam.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Right, Yeah, I feel like we should we should get
into it, because again I don't really use TikTok, but
I did follow it because I was curious about what
would happen, Like, oh, if this happens, yeah, then what's
what's next.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
It's going to set a big precedent. It talks about
who's who has power of what, who is actually getting
the information that people are saying they're getting the information,
and for me, for me and you, bridget who are
actually on TikTok. Are we seeing an algorithm that is biased,
that TikTok is trying to get us on their side? Like,
there's so many questions here.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
These are all great questions, so let's get into it.
So basically, we're calling it a TikTok ban, which is
not like incorrect, but it's not technically accurate. So this
legislation that we've seen moving through the House in the
last few weeks is called protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary
controlled Applications at and it wouldn't technically ban TikTok specifically. Rather,
(08:38):
this legislation, if passed, would block social media apps that
are quote controlled by a foreign adversary in the United States.
Right now, TikTok is owned by the Chinese based parent
company byte Dance, So when it comes to TikTok, what
that would mean is that byte Dance would be forced
to sell TikTok to an American owner in order to
(08:59):
operate in the US. If this legislation were to become law.
That is kind of a tricky thing. TikTok CEO shows
Too has repeatedly said, we're not going to do that,
We're not interested in selling. Will never happen, And if
this legislation were to become law, they would have to
do this in about six months, which is not a
(09:19):
ton of time. I'm certain this would be a very
complicated transfer of power. You know, we're talking about potentially
like a multi billion dollar deal here, and so forcing
TikTok to do that in six months is it's like
a really tall order, so much so that it is
essentially a TikTok ban, even if it's not a ban
(09:40):
in a technical sense.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
So recently watched the video on several different TikTok creators,
as well as the press conference that the Chinese leaders did.
I don't know if you saw this, essentially saying it's
actually written in the contract that byt dance cannot by
law sell away from China, like they that was always
a part of the contract, that's always been there, and
(10:14):
to the point that the government, our government knew that.
So it makes me like they I and everybody's accusing.
So this is an actual ban without them saying band
trying not to be the bad guys exactly.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
So I keep seeing people being like, well, it's not
a band, it's not a band, Okay. Maybe it doesn't
use the word ban, maybe it's not a band in
the most like hyper technical sense, but functionally this is
a band, right, Like, I completely agree with you. And
even that alone is one of these things that kind
of makes me wonder about how this legislation came together.
(10:47):
You know the fact that they are going out of
their way to have a carve out to say it's
not really a band when functionally it basically is.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Right literally saying this is these these are your options
to sell or be banned, and then then the actual
company being like, well, no, it is in our contract
that we can't sell.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
So and you knew this.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
You were putting us in a rock, you know, the
rock and a hard place in that situation of like, no,
we're just going to be out, and the Chinese knows
that the US, as many users as there are, are
not the only users exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
So that actually brings up like a pretty clear next
question of whether or not there is a someone who
would buy this right like TikTok. It would probably be
a multi billion dollar sale tip to acquire TikTok, and
there's not really a lot of people who have emerged
who are you know, in a position to buy this. However,
(11:47):
former Trump administration Treasury Secretary Steve Menuchin said last week
that he's actually putting together an investor group to buy TikTok. So, yeah,
a former Trump administration official could own it. Now I've
put that into a little bit of context. That would
mean that Elon Musk owns Twitter, Manonchin would own TikTok,
(12:08):
and that would really be a huge change in our
social media landscape. In my opinion, I don't think that
would be a change for the better necessarily.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Right, we already know what's happening with I misinformation on
Facebook and who dictates all of that, which is very
concerning in itself. So that means all of I mean,
I will say. Someone said, and this is a whole
different conversation that Reddit is becoming the new safe space.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Oh that's so interesting because I've actually found myself. I
was like a Reddit power user back in the day,
and then I stopped using it so much. I started
using Twitter and Instagram more. Now I'm back on Reddit,
and there's something about it because like, for me, I
really need to have a reliable text based social media
(12:56):
platform as much as I like TikTok, you know, I
need to. I need to. I'm I'm a words person,
Like I like to read words. I like to write words.
Being on camera on video, which is a different thing.
I like watching other people be on video and be
on camera. But I'm a words person and I think,
like so, Reddit has kind of re emerged as a
(13:17):
place where I'm spending more and more of my time
and it's actually feeling pretty good.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah, and I think I don't think you're the only one.
Like I said, people are calling that kind of the
safe space because if they're actually well monitored and you're
going to uh, you know, the subreddit that is specifically
for you, that it has been well moderated in an
affair and like objective manner, and peopleally really like trusting
that system more now because they're worried about TikTok. But
(13:44):
back to like we need to talk about what exactly
is this legislation that they're trying to pull.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
So it passed the House last week and now it
goes to the Senate. President Biden has already said that
if it passes the Senate, he will sign it in law.
White House Press Secretary Karine Jean Pierre said that the
Biden administration is really looking to the Senate to act
quickly on this legislation, and so like it could be
something that moves fast. However, I will say that as
(14:13):
quickly as this legislation passed the House, passing the Senate
is looking like it might be a little bit more complicated.
A bipartisan group of senators is already sort of signaling
that they would not necessarily be down for voting for
a TikTok ban. For instance, Senator ran Paul described the
bill as a quote draconian measure that stifles free expression,
(14:34):
tramples the constitutional rights, and disrupts the economic pursuits of
millions of Americans. Senator Ed Markey, a Democrat from Massachusetts,
argued that the privacy issues that the bill is meant
to be, you know, addressing, exist far beyond TikTok. So
it does kind of seem like it might not be
the kind of thing that is quickly and unanimously passed
in the Senate. It might there might be some some
(14:56):
pushback there.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Yeah, what I understood. Let Schumer, who is the lead
in the Senate, was saying that he is in no
hurry to even look at this bill because they have
been kind of inundated with a lot of opposition. Again,
and this is one of those moments when you said
Ran Paul, Ran Paul and Marjorie Taylor Green all opposing
this makes me think that I'm on the wrong side
(15:20):
if I sort of agree with them.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah, I mean listen, so you're exactly right. Chuck Schumer
didn't really have anything to say about the legislation and
the way that he's I forget how he said it exactly,
but like to me, it signaled I am not taking
a position on this, and I'm in no hurry to
make us a priority. That's what it looks like to me.
You're so right that the people who are for and
(15:44):
against it is so because usually it's like whatever Margory
Taylor Green is for, I am probably against and vice versa. Right,
But you know, even I think last week former President
Trump came out against a TikTok band, which that's a
reversal of previous positions, right, So it's like it is
very difficult to figure out where different elected officials stand
(16:06):
on this and use it's difficult to use that as
a barometer for where as an individual folks listening should stand.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
I think there's so many conversations because we've already talked
about the original band that we were talking about long
tap ago with a show to coming in front of
the Senate testifying, and then the xenophobic comments that happened
time after time and time after time, and this is
a whole different conversation that I have to have with
myself as an Asian person because we have talked, we
(16:35):
haven't talked much about the fact that there's a lot
of misinformation and there's a lot of kind of conspiracy
theories that the US is xenophobic tactics from the past,
and that communism is not good. Don't get me wrong
in all of this, but the level of evilizing and
(16:56):
condemning of the places like China and North Korea again
not good. But a part of that conversation is because
they're not Christian enough. That has been a part of
that too. That makes me wonder how much of this
is a colonized idea of what they expected China and
these other countries to become and when they are of
(17:17):
power because they are not Christian nations? Is that that
is that part of their what they see as evil
of these places and then being successful.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
I mean, you really can't have a conversation about the
way this legislation has been moving without talking about xenophobia,
and I wish that wasn't the case, but it is
American elected officials who are making that the case. Like
I wish we could have this conversation about the merits
of this legislation. However, when you have elected officials in
(17:48):
hearings making blatantly xenophobic and anti Asian comments to TikTok CEO's,
you have to talk about it like it is. It
is just inherently heard the conversation. It makes it so
that you cannot talk about the legislation on its own
without talking about the sort of like rhetoric that you're
describing here, and it really does us a disservice. I think,
(18:11):
because the American people deserve to see the merits of
legislation you know discussed. I think that any person who
is a CEO of the company as big and as
influential as TikTok should be comfortable being grilled in front
of elected officials, and the American public should have a
sense of, like, where what they're thinking about. However, when
(18:32):
you retreat into these harmful anti Asian xenophobic stereotypes and
claims and theories, you are doing everybody at disservice because
we don't get that right. We're talking about the xenophobia,
and we have to talk about the xenophobia because you
brought it up, you injected it into the conversation, does
that make sense.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
The entire time the entire time, and calling them the
enemy state. Again, don't get me wrong, I know that
the history is complicated. The Chinese government has done a
lot of bad things. The US government has done a
lot of bad things. And then this is like the
back and forth of like what is happening? But then
also it kind of comes down to the fact that
again maybe because I do enjoy TikTok and I do
(19:12):
go through and like love my dog videos, I love
my cue little animal, I saw honors the'ed adorable, I
want one, but like all these things and making it
seem like if they shut down TikTok, and it's like
that is shutting down the voice of the people. And
it's kind of interesting to see what TikTok is doing
and trying to respond to the governments like us against
(19:35):
them like seemingly totally.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
So some of y'all might have gotten like big alerts
when you tried to open TikTok the last few days,
urging you to call your member of Congress and tell
them that you do not want a TikTok. Band I
actually didn't get one. Maybe maybe they know that I'm
in DC, and like there's not a member of Congress
that I could call. I could call Eleanor Holmes Norton,
but she doesn't get a vote, So like there's really
they're maybe they're like, we're not gonna waste our time
(20:00):
getting bridget with this ad. But the alert reads stop
a TikTok shut down. Congress is planning a total ban
of TikTok. Speak up now before your government strips one
hundred and seventy million Americans of their constitutional right to
free expression. This will damage millions of businesses, destroy the
livelihoods of countless creators across the country, and deny artists
and audience. Let Congress know what TikTok means. Over the weekend,
(20:22):
they also did a push notification that folks might have
gotten to their phones pretty much saying the same thing.
It honestly does sound like this is working. Congressional staffers
say that their phones were like ringing off the hook.
One house GOP staffer told Politico that it was so
so bad. Our phones have not stopped bringing their teenagers
and old people, saying they spend their whole day on
the app and we cannot take it away.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
You know, one creator was talking about the fact that
they actually said there was a lot of millennial women,
a lot of millennial women calling in. They were kind
of surprised how many millennial women and when a middle
aged and millennial women were calling in talking about this
was going to affect their business.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah. Actually, Essence just put out a really really interesting
article about how many specifically black women entrepreneurs and creators
were really using TikTok to promote their businesses and like
find a foothold and in ways that they were unable
to do on other platforms, and how much a TikTok
ban was concerning to them and their livelihoods economically, and
(21:23):
so that doesn't surprise me at all. I also wanted
to make one other comment about that, which is that
I think that TikTok has a reputation of being like
a young person's app, and certainly it has a lot
of young users. However, the average TikTok users age is thirty, right,
and so that's like I would call a thirty year
old young, but like a thirty year old votes, you know,
(21:45):
like these are people who, you know, we're not talking
about a children's app. And I think that perception is
really not correct, and I think that's the perception that people.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Have right, which is an interesting because I know the
original idea of TikTok was younger users, much younger. It
was like the dance app, which I like dancing. I
want to see people dance. I can't do those moves,
but I want to see them. But it was it
was interesting, and I know that that's the big conversation
(22:16):
of like who is using it, who this is affecting,
and who is able to get on it. Of course
we've already had that conversation with like how quickly that's
changing to and how quickly they will shadow band many
a marginalized communities. But that's the hair there totally. And
so just one other thing about these these push notifications
and stuff. I have seen a lot of people say
(22:36):
that TikTok urging users to take political action is evidence
enough that the app is bad. That they're like demanding
that teenagers call their congress person or whatever, and that like,
you shouldn't have an app telling young people what to.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Do or whatever. But this is so common for tech
companies to do. Both Uber and Lyft have sent out
similar push notifications asking for users to contact congress or
do certain things. And so TikTok is not the only
tech company or app that has done this kind of thing,
and people trying to act like this push notification action
(23:11):
was completely beyond the pale. It's certainly not. It happens
all the.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Time, right, which I feel like if I remember correctly Twitter,
different Twitter accounts would have the like you know, you
could have the one link and they would often do
like at least like petitions. I remember during a lot
of the Black Lives Matter stuff and many of the
murdering of the black community, they would have links and
petitions that would happen through Twitter. So none of these
(23:37):
things are new. I'm wondering again, and I know this
is that bigger conversation of like, maybe I'm just too
caught up in some conspiracy theories. But some of the
conversations that have happened with the pro Palestinian movement and
what's happening there and many consider genicide, I consider a
genocide happening there, that TikTok has been one of the
(24:00):
biggest platforms to actually have conversations about that and through
that because they do have like the link tree that
do have petitions and alerts and all of these things
like that has happened, and I know there's a conversation
about whether or not that's part of this motivation.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Totally. I have so much to say about that. I
will say first, I think a lot of the conversation
around how conversations about what's happening in Palestine are unfolding
on TikTok. I think a lot of the conversation about that,
to me feels a little bit ageist and condescending, Like
it's this idea that like, oh, well, if young people
(24:38):
are you know, if they feel a certain way about
what's happening in Palestine, certainly is a Certainly that is
a problem, and it is it is TikTok's fault, as
opposed to saying like, well, maybe young people are smart
and with it and like looked at looked at the
information available to them and came to a conclusion, and
you know, treating that with the respect that it does.
(25:00):
I see a lot of older elected officials sort of
handwringing and being like, oh, well, the only way that
our kids could come to this conclusion is that if
this app is like tricking them into it, and so
there have been a lot of interesting conversations about how
that fits into this legislation to potentially ban TikTok, this
(25:22):
concern about where young people are finding themselves when it
comes to conversations about Palestine.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I guess this brings us to a question. Then I
feel like the answer is kind of clear. We've kind
of talked about it ear last. A part of it's clear,
why is this happening in the first place, bridget.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
It's a great question. So if you take these lawmakers
at their word, if you take the name of the
legislation at its word, lawmakers say that TikTok is a
national security risk because it's owned by China, and that
the app app could be compelled by the Chinese government
to manipulate public opinion because you know, they are you know,
TikTok does have this like super powerful algorithm that they
(26:09):
can use to boost certain content, suppress certain content, that
they could collect mass data on Americans or even spy
on individual Americans. And so that's sort of like what
lawmakers are saying they are trying to prevent with this legislation.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Okay, but is that actually the thing?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
So I should say here, this is a little above
my pay grade. But as somebody who has done a
lot of looking into this and had many, many, many
interviews on it, this threat, my understanding, this threat is
just purely hypothetical. You know, the Intercept is published a
piece about how when pushed on these threats and like,
when asked, you know, what is the threat? Is the
(26:52):
rest smoking gun? The FBI uses phrases like oh, China
could do X, y Z if they wanted to, China
could potentially do right, it seems to me that there
is not a smoking gun or like hard evidence that
this is happening or there's a plan for this to happen. Now,
you might be listening and saying like, well, why should
(27:13):
we have to wait until there's a smoking gun? Why
should we have to wait until there's evidence that this
is happening? And that's a fair point, But as of
right now, they would be passing this law to deal
with a hypothetical or potential threat that currently there is
just not evidence that's going on.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Right.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
One of another creator that I was looking at has
actually posted I think a recent list showing that the
likelihood of information being farmed and Facebook and Amazon and
Instagram were top three while TikTok was actually a number twelve.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yes, so I'm so glad that you brought that up.
The fact of the matter is is that we have
a social media and digital landscape that is just rife
with bad actors and corporate interests and operations who are
doing bad things, in some cases breaking the law to
make money off of us and to exploit us. That
(28:07):
is just a fact. I don't like it, nobody should
like it, but it is what it is. And so
this legislation to me, really seems like it's cracking down
on TikTok for having the same problems and same issues
that Facebook, Google, Twitter all have, for exploiting us in
the same potentially exploiting us in the same ways that
(28:28):
every other social media platform has, but regulating them because
it's China. And this is my opinion, I think that
this is really more about the United States wanting to
remain the top dog when it comes to big tech, right,
Like I think I saw some joke that was like, oh,
like China wants my data, don't they know that's reserved
(28:52):
for Mark Zuckerberg. I think that's exactly what's going on here.
I think that lawmakers have figured out that by you know,
being tough on TikTok, they can one you know, act
tough on taking down China, and two make it seem
like they are sort of being tough on big tech
while actually doing nothing when it comes to regulate big tech.
(29:14):
Because just the fact of the matter is big tech
companies enjoy a pretty cozy relationship financially with a lot
of elected officials, and so if they were actually to
talk tough big on American big tech, that conversation might
get a little bit thorny. But by regulating TikTok in
this way, they kind of get the points and the
appearance of being like we're taking on big tech or
(29:37):
really doing nothing about taking on big tech.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
I mean, we know that they let some laws drop,
some policies drop in order to protect tech companies and
their liability way back when, and have been doing so
for a minute. But I think it's interesting and I'm
sure you've seen this Jeff Jackson, Representative Jeff Jackson, who
actually really made his headway in TikTok, Like his videos,
(30:01):
his like common sense takes seemingly in Congress really like
had him going like really high in the polls and everybody.
People were talking about him being president, him being so
great for like being common sense and all these things,
and then he got called out for voting yes to
the TikTok ban, which made him like this the people
(30:22):
that followed him made that for him, and then him
coming back on saying that, you know, I don't think
it's going to be banned. It's not gonna be banned.
It's fine, it's fine. No, I'm just a little concerned
because you know, what's in my ear. What's in my ear?
And then on top of that, people showing why some
of these possibly like the conspiracy theories about why and
this the different people who are paying the lobbyists who
(30:44):
are coming through who are actually pushing this narrative really hard.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
I mean, it's some of these aren't conspiracy theories, right,
Like we know that Facebook or Meta has pumped so
much money into anti TikTok like negative pr right. Facebook
worked with a company called Targeted Victory to get like
negative op eds about TikTok placed in newspapers so that
(31:11):
elected officials would see them like this is a documented thing, right,
Like I don't think anybody at Facebook would deny this
is happening. It's it's like a matter of public fact,
and so we do got to ask some questions about why,
because certainly a TikTok ban would be great for Facebook
and great for Mark Zuckerberg, and they're certainly spending a
(31:31):
lot of money to push a certain negative public perception
of TikTok with elected officials. Like I remember when there
was a hearing a couple last year about TikTok, and
Facebook had paid targeted Victory to put op eds in
papers about like how young people had really unfortunately died
(31:54):
or hurt themselves doing so called TikTok challenges, however, obscuring
the reality that some of those TikTok challenges actually originated
on Facebook. Right. And so it's like, rather than having
the conversation about, well, what platforms were actually responsible for
this harm, and like, like, let's talk about this harm
to kids, which we should be doing, it's just a
way of making TikTok the boogeyman and letting Facebook off
(32:18):
the hook for harms that they also participate in.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
Right, And kind of related back to our shops. When
we're talking about TikTok shops, there's a conversation that Amazon
have jumped on board because they have lost cells due
to TikTok shops. So that's a whole different conversation. Again,
so many things that you're like, why are you doing this?
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Yeah, money, I mean everybody, everybody has a stake in
this a little bit like Amazon and Jeff Bezos certainly
have a financial stake in what's going to happen with
TikTok because TikTok is really aggressively pushing TikTok shop as
a way to compete with online retailers like Amazon, and
(33:01):
so Amazon obviously has a financial stake in what happens
with TikTok. And so we just got to be more honest,
I think, and have a bit more of an honest
assessment of the major players and why they might be
taking the positions that they're taking.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Right, but let's say all this is just hearsay and conspiracies,
as I'm saying, even though we've talked about it's not.
Is TikTok trying to balance out the fears?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
So they are. TikTok's attempt to balance out these fears
is what they're calling Project Texas. So TikTok has committed
to spend one point five billion dollars on this plan,
which would essentially enact a firewall between TikTok and employees
of its Chinese based parent company, fight Dance. It would
sort of set up this United States based firm called
(33:46):
Oracle as a kind of a watchdog to scrutinize TikTok
source code and I guess like act like a third
party monitor for potential security risks. So basically they're like, Okay,
if you are so worried about it, we will set
up this firewall and we will put it America tech
firm in charge of being a watchdog to make sure
everything is on the up and app Will that actually
be enough to satisfy these lawmakers? It sounds like the
(34:08):
answer is no so far, Like, I have not actually
seen a lot of people talking about Project Texas as
a thing that is actually going to ameliorate the concerns
that these lawmakers are saying that they have.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
I'm trying to imagine if they chose the name Project
Texas to try to wow.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
I'm sure like, oh my gosh, what conveys like patriotism
and like Americanism and like oh United States, Project Texas,
Freedom Texas.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Now this is really interesting to me because I had
to take a moment. I was reading up about this
because again I was just curious about what would happen,
and I was reminded of you know, when I was
in China. You know, Twitter's band, Facebook is band, Instagram's banned,
Google's not allowed, Google left voluntarily.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
But then it's kind of like no.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
But everybody used a VPN to just like use it anyway.
So I was just thinking about, like, what would that be,
what was that going to look like. It's just it's
a really fascinating kind of terrifying thing. But I guess
the last time you were here, we were talking about this,
(35:26):
and you know, we were talking about still the same
things of which I know we'll get to later about
you know, marginalized communities being affected, because again in China,
that was a huge blow that they couldn't use these things.
But also you know, having these spaces is really important.
But they do have their issues, and last time you
(35:48):
were here, you were talking about like TikTok and what
is going on there with their issues.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Totally, So someone listening to this might be like, wow,
Bridget is like being paid by TikTok or something, although,
as we discussed, I am wearing a TikTok sweatshirt right
now that I got as a free swag from an event,
only because it's the Comfy's sweatshirt I've ever worn. However,
like I will be the first person to tell you
all the different ways that I think that TikTok is
(36:14):
messing up, I don't want to make it, see Mike,
I think TikTok is great. It definitely has very big
issues that deserve to be talked about, that they deserve
to be made accountable for, you know, just like any
social media platform in twenty twenty four, there are some
very valid concerns around TikTok and security and other things too,
And anybody who tells you that there isn't just does
(36:35):
not know the fact. So we talked about how a
lawmakers are concerned that TikTok could like spy on Americans.
They actually have kind of done that already, you know.
There were reports that TikTok access journalist information to identify
which employees were leaking information about the platform. TikTok basically
admitted to doing this, according to an internal email. They
(36:56):
were asked about this, and they were like, well, it's
not really spy, and I mean, like, it does sound
like spying to me, you know, I get what they're
kind of saying that it's not like they were spying
on random American citizens for no reason. They were spying
on specifically journalists to answer a specific question. To me,
spying is spying, So like, it's not like they have
(37:17):
a squeaky clean record on that, which I think people
should just be aware of. Also, there's like plenty of
other non spying reasons that your average person who uses
TikTok or like has a child or a sibling or
something that uses TikTok should be concerned about, right, what
issues when it comes to moderation, Like Sam was talking
about how TikTok impacts mental health, one of the things
(37:40):
I wish that you talked about more is just like
how addictive these platforms are, how they are intentionally made
to keep you scrolling for longer and longer and longer,
even when they know this is actually harming them, this
is actually making them feel bad, Like they like, this
is they know this right, this is not this is
not news to them, and yet they still design their
(38:03):
platforms to be as addictive as possible. These are questions
I wish we had answers to right, things like algorithmic
suppression or algorithmic manipulation, like are they showing you some
things and not showing you other things? And why? Of course,
the spread of things like mis and disinformation and pushing
users into extremist content. But as much as these are
things that we should be talking about, none of them
(38:25):
are specific to just TikTok, And so I have a
problem with this idea that the reason the only reason
that we should care about these issues is when the
platform is owned by a Chinese based parent company. I
don't understand why we can't then say like, okay, well,
if these are problems, let's actually address the problem, and
let's actually call out the different corporations for doing the
(38:47):
exact same thing, because it's not just TikTok, and it
makes it seem like they're making TikTok into this singular boogeyman,
when anybody who has used Facebook or Twitter or Instagram
knows that is not the case.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
Mean, Twitter in itself is a cesspool of white supremacist,
not neo Nazi movements.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about this too, because I
was like, you know, it's it's really if we lose TikTok,
we've already kind of lost Twitter, Like we're losing these spaces.
It's and they were important, Like there there is such
a use and a value in them, and it is
(39:41):
sometimes I feel like when people don't use them or
they don't understand them, they dismiss that they're just like,
but there is so much happening and so much being
shared that is important on them. We already lost Twitter.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Yeah, I mean, like I think that context is really
important of what will it be like when if there
is no TikTok and Twitter is functionally not usable, you know,
for particularly for marginalized people, right, Like, you know, I
feel like I cannot use Twitter without seeing transphobia, racism,
(40:21):
horrible conspiracy theories, harassment, and so it's not a platform
that I can really tolerate spending a lot of time
on anymore so for marginalized people who do not want
to be subjected to that kind of nonsense. Where if
we lose TikTok, where's the organizing happening? Right again, to
add even a little more context, folks might have seen
a couple of weeks ago that Meta made an announcement
(40:43):
that they were going to be deprioritizing content about political
and social issues, right, and so if they are making
that choice, and it's going to be that much harder
for political and social issues, which Meta has a track
record of really defining those issues as issues pertaining to women,
queer folks, trans folks, black folks, Right, those are the
issues when they say political issues and social issues from
(41:06):
their own behavior, like that is what they mean. They
have a whole track record of suppressing content about abortion
access and Palestinian activism and black activism and things that
pertain to marginalized communities. So that being the case, where
are these where are we supposed to do our organizing?
Where are we supposed to build power online? Particularly given
(41:29):
that building power online has been so important to traditionally
marginalized communities, It's really a deep question that I'm quite concerned.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
About, right, And Honestly, platforms like TikTok really help with
brand new creators, Like this is where you can see
like there's not nepotism working. It's literally people who go
viral for whatever reason, good or bad, but essentially they're
just making it on their own whether it's sure algorithm
has everything to do with it, but we're able to
(41:58):
see more and more content from like everyday people, like
every day people who get to do great content, and
people can pick and choose who they want to follow
and who they don't want to follow, and it's actually
something that they do on their own. And I know
YouTube once upon a time was that kind of same
idea as well. But with this level of like needing
to be ad sponsored on YouTube, that kind of has
(42:20):
gone away. You already need a connection, whether it's through
an agency, whether it's through something to actually make big
again on YouTube, as where TikTok has kind of become
that new YouTube where you can be discovered as a
brand new thing.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Yeah. In that article I mentioned in essence about the
black women entrepreneurs who were really concerned about a TikTok ban,
that was something they really made clear is that on YouTube,
in order to find success, you have to have a
kind of like already have some sort of name or connection.
It is very difficult to sort of start from zero
and start building up. I'm hearing that YouTube shorts, this
(42:53):
sort of like new TikTok competitor on YouTube might be
a little easier. So like that's a platform that folks
might to check out. But it just goes to show that,
like it's just so hard to use social media to
build a platform for yourself. And with all of these changes,
and with the different platforms changing so rapidly, not to
(43:16):
mention the overall landscape changing so rapidly, that is certainly
going to hurt marginalize people the most, people who don't
necessarily have access to like traditional media outlets and like
legacy media and things like that. And so it's just
really clear to me that we are potentially gearing up
to a digital media landscape where it is that much
harder for underrepresented voices to be heard equitably and in
(43:41):
a way that's truly representative.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
Right, So, with all of that and all the conversations
that I'm throwing out, with all the things that I've
seen on my algorithm, what do you kind of lay
out there what you think is really happening right now?
Speaker 3 (43:56):
So, as I said, I think that lawmakers have really
sent that like they need to be cracking down on TikTok.
It will help them kind of look tough on China,
will also kind of help them look like they're doing
something to reign in big tech, even though they're not.
I think that the United States really wants to remain
a major player when it comes to big tech, but
also the like massively lucrative data collection industry. I think
(44:20):
that like this is really about that concern to me,
because you know, if you really wanted better data privacy,
which we should have, it does not begin an end
with banning TikTok are, especially when all of our data
is essentially for sale to whoever wants it, which if
you're an American, I'm sorry to report that it's just true.
(44:42):
Anybody out there who wants to buy your address, your
phone number, really any piece of information about you can
do that, and they can do it legally, And so
that's to me, that's something that seems bad, and that
includes countries like China. Only a few weeks ago, back
in February, I signed an executive order that ostensibly was
(45:03):
meant to limit the sale of some of our data
to quote countries of concern. But this order really just
puts some limitations on the sales of American data. As
Wired points out, US data brokers need only take a
few steps to ensure that overseas customers follow certain security
requirements during the transfer, many of which were already required
(45:25):
by law. So I really just have a hard time
understanding why TikTok is such a threat given that China
would not even need TikTok to get our data. As
long as they follow certain guidelines, they can legally buy
it the same as anybody else.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
It is just literally like, okay, so you didn't give
us money for it, that's why we want to be Yes,
we couldn't make a profit out of it. Which is
hilarious because I think I've received in the last three
months alone at least four different letters telling me that
my data has been breached by all these different companies.
My healthcare told me I have got a breach. My
(46:01):
insurance told me I gotta breach. I want to say,
my h one of my credit cards got to breach.
My bank that has my mortgage, you gotta breach. So
I'm like, uh, some everybody's got my data. According to
my information, they all have it.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
Yeah, that is just the state of being an American.
It's like every like you wake up, buy a coffee
and then you had a notification five seconds later. That's like, oh,
we got we got it, we got you whatever, whatever
information that you have, we have right.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
And what's so even funnier to me is instead of
people actually, instead of the government's changing or going after
these people a hardcore I'm sure if like small fish
get actual jail time or whatever whatnot, I'm being Instead
all of these agencies and corporations are changing their terms
of agreement to tell me that I can't suit them
for their bad they're bad breach.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
Yeah, if anybody uses Roku you might have seen recently,
you had to agree to some new terms and conditions,
and those terms and conditions were like, you can't sue
if we do something wrong to you.
Speaker 4 (47:01):
If you reach information, you can't see us. We're listening
all your money if.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
You want to us, if you want to watch this
episode of Gilmore Girls, you have to give away your
ability to sue us.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
I mean, like, what's so funny is every single individual
network I stold us to, like Hulu has sened that
out and I was like, what the hell is this?
And the other part to all of those like for Roku,
the only way you can opt out is by sending
them a physical letter.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Doesn't that really tell you everything about how these companies
are showing up in this day and age that like, yes,
and I guess like to close, like that's sort of
I just think that that dynamic, the dynamic that says
that American tech companies can do whatever they want to you,
take whatever they want from you, exploits you in any
(47:51):
way they want make money from you and your kids
however they see fit if it makes them richer, and
there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
I think that that is really what we're up against here.
I think that people are sick of it. And I
think that this whole song and dance about TikTok really
highlights that it's not just about this one app. It
is about an entire rotten ecosystem where we are being
(48:12):
exploited to make somebody else fitcher and I think people
have really come to see that, like that is what
we need to be talking about. That is what we
need to be really deeply rethinking and reassessing.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Yeah, And I think one of the things I love
about when you come on Bridget and your show is
that there are so many things that are so gatekeeping
in the technology world, where so many things have been
invented or crafted by women marginalized communities, and then are
(48:43):
like overtaken, are bought by people, and it is a
way of keeping us off out of these spaces.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Like you can.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
There are just numerous examples of times where it's like, well, Okay,
I can't use this anymore because I'll run into all
this hateful stuff. I can't use this anymore because I'll
run into all this hateful stuff. So I it is
a really important issue in terms of intersectionality and feminism,
and as we're moving into elections, oh my god, like
(49:14):
I'm just so concerned about a lot of it.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
But it is like.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
If we again did lose TikTok, it would be another
space where that's gone, can't show up anymore.
Speaker 3 (49:28):
Yeah, And you know, women, people of color, trans folks,
queer folks, we are technology, like we are what makes
technology what it is. We have been at the forefront
of all of this, of computers becoming commonplace, of cell
phones becoming what they are, of smartphones, iPhones, all of it.
(49:50):
We have been at the forefront of that since the
very beginning. And so I guess I just want to
challenge anybody listening whether you're for a talk band against it.
Never use TikTok, never would use it. Really see this
domain and these conversations and these spaces as yours to
(50:11):
be part of, yours, to take up space, and yours
to show up in, yours to care about. I think
a big part of that sort of gatekeeping that you
spoke about, Annie is this idea that we A don't
belong in these spaces, which is bs we do, we
invented them, You're welcome, or B that we can't be
involved in them because we're not smart enough. You don't
(50:31):
have the background, whatever, whatever. I don't have any kind
of hard tech degree or anything. You don't need a
hard tech degree to know when you're being taken advantage
of by a tech leader. You don't need a degree
in it to know when a digital experience does not
feel good, It is not validating, and it is exploitative. Right.
You are the expert of your technological experience, and don't
let any of these tech bro losers tell you otherwise.
(50:55):
You are smarter than Elon Musk, whoever listening to this.
You are smarter than Musk. I guarantee it. I don't
know who you are, but I can guarantee you Elon
Musk is stupider than you are. For sure.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
I mean he's bankrupted two companies.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
Have you yet comment companies that you bankrupted? Probably none.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Writing Samantha sent me a TikTok recently about the study
about how male gamers who are bad are the ones
that are real pissed off right, And we talked about this,
Bridget in our episode we did on gate keeping and
online gaming, and.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
I was like, yeah, see, you guys just suck.
Speaker 4 (51:37):
Most of the trolls who were on the gaming network
were the ones who were actually really bad at the game.
Those are the only trolls that you released.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Yes, I'm good, I'm a good gamer.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Don't come in my space.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
You suck and you're taking it out of Andie stop it.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Yes, well, we always love having you, Bridget. Thank you
so much. I'm sure we'll be following up on this.
We'll see what happens. But in the meantime, where can
the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (52:06):
You can check out my podcast. There are no girls
on the Internet. You can find me on Instagram at
Bridget brandyc on Blue Sky, at Bridget Todd, on threads
at I think my thread's name is the same as
my Instagram name. I think I have to double check
if that's true, but you can try that.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
And you can find me on TikTok at Bridget Todd
makes pods.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Yes, and you should do that if you haven't already.
Listeners and check out all Bridget has done on this
show for sure. Yes, thank you for being here and listeners.
If you would like to contact us, you can our
email at Stephanie moms Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You
can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or
on Instagram and TikTok stuff.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
I've Never told You.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
We have a tea public store, and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always too, our super producer Christina or executive producer Maya,
and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
for listening. Steffan Never told You is Fritch and by
heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you
can check out the Heart Radio Apple Podcasts wherever you
listen to favorite shows.
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