December 20, 2019 • 55 mins
Guest Vanessa Zoltan stops by to discuss the women of the Harry Potter universe, and why examining fictional works through a feminist lens matters. Bonus discussion of Jane Eyre.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha, and welcome to stuff.
I've never told your production if I heart ideas has
to work. Today we are talking about one of my
favorite things. Oh my god, Yes, so exciting, Harry Potter.
(00:25):
And while yes, I could just talk about Harry Potter,
we're gonna look at women and feminism of Harry pottermatic yes, yeah,
and bonus Jane are discussion, yes, which I love. But
I also love Harry Potter, so I'm not. I don't
know why I'm acting so cool about it, because I do.
I really you and I bonded the fact that I
do really love Harry Potter. I just don't go all
out and where the things as fiction. I see, I
(00:49):
see your subtle job, not subtle job. I am may
a people who love things, and I love Harry Potter. Um.
It was and slashed still is because my mom. You know,
when she likes something, it's forever, it's my thingy. Every
year she gives Harry Potter. So no, every time I
think about a present, I'm like, I can't do Harry Potter.
I know her Mom's going to get her like everything,
(01:11):
so that's fine. She's covered from probably mid middle of
middle school to high school. Every year she got me
these really ornate Harry Potter snow globes. They're awesome and
I don't know what to do with them because my
apartment is really small, but I love them. If you
could put it like tape to the wall, that'd be
best for you. Wouldn't it snowlo taped to the wall?
(01:33):
Nothing could go wrong. UM. I will say you are
one of the more fun people to buy for because
you have a lot of loves that's very tangible, which
is really nice. So thank you for being that person.
You're welcome. Yeah, I did it all for you. UM.
So there are a few significant moments in my life that, um,
were made by my love of Harry Potter. There are
(01:53):
certain trips I take I took that were for Harry Potter.
There were for other things, right, but Harry Potter was
in there, and I am of the generation that aged
with it. I graduated high school when the last book
came out, um, and I graduated college when the last
movie came out. It was a really big part of
my life. You know. I actually had a really good
(02:14):
friend of mine from college who was also loved. She
was the reason I started watching Harry Potter because she
loved it so much. I actually went to a midnight
viewing of Harry Potter, Harry Potter and Goblet of Fire.
That's what I think got me into starting. Oh, I
actually like this, let me go back and read what happened.
And also because I can't wait, I want to know
what happened. So I went forward and started reading everything.
(02:36):
And I think by the time I got into it,
everything was published, so I was already cool into it.
But this was her escape, Like she had a really
really rough childhood, very empathetic to the point that it
hurts her. She's one of those, and having Harry Potter
as her world, it's a part of who she was,
really helped her, I think, survive a bit of the
(02:57):
backlash that was her family, not the Bilash, but the
problems that were within her family, within her family and
her own like financial stuff. Harry Potter got her through
a lot of that. So Yeah, I think I love
that we were going to talk about this because that's
exactly what she kind of jumps into, which I never
thought about. Yeah, and interestingly, kind of off of that,
(03:19):
if you go back in her traumic says my most
probably my most dramatic time was fourteen to fifteen, and
that's when Goblet of Fire came out, and I just
remember taking such refuge in it, even though it was
probably the first one that was really difficult, but it
was it just swept you up and there they're essentially mysteries,
(03:41):
and so you're trying to figure out who did it,
what's going on, and it was it was also yeah,
for me, a way to kind of deal with what
I was going through. And they continued to be that.
Um yeah, I've made friends off of them, so it
was so powerful and I did to give a brief overview.
(04:01):
We're not the only people who like Harry Potter. Surprise, surprise. Um.
The first book, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, came
out in and the series of seven books went on
to sell millions of copies, five hundred million copies more
than that, it's the best selling series of books of
all time. Um. Yeah. And for people who didn't grow
(04:24):
up during this or maybe somehow missed it, it's hard
to capture how popular they were. We waited in line
at bookstores at midnight. They had midnight releases of books
which was ridiculously rare. Yes, and then we would stay
up all night and read them. I have pictures of
everyone because I actually didn't get into them until the
third one came out. So I have a picture of
(04:46):
four through seven, me and all my friends. It's five am,
and we're trying to beat each other, right, and I'd
love to find that it's still on going. My niece
who was still in high school, I think she's now
ninth grade. Oh, I'm sorry, Grace, I'm sorry Annie, Whoa,
I'm sorry, Addie. There's too many nieces and nephew I'm
(05:07):
sorry to God, they're all A's except Um. Anyway, she
has now gotten into it and it's completely obsessed and
loves everything about Harry Potter and I love it. It's
been so long, people, last book was released, all the
movies are done. People have kind of gone on, but
it's still a big thing in their world and in
the world because it's kind of timeless, kind of like
(05:29):
The Lord of the rings Um and all of the trilogy.
It kind of continues, goes, continue, continues to be relevant
because it's their own world, which is fantastic. Yeah, my nephew,
he's eight or nine, he just got into them, and
I feel like the coolest person ever because he visited
my old house where I grew up, and it was
essentially a shrine Harry Potter, and it's all been confined
(05:50):
into one section now that doesn't really fit with the
adult guest room vibe the rest of the room. But
he goes in there and he's just in love. And
we've gotten, um, like a trivia contest with each other,
and just seeing that level of fandom for this book
series that, yeah, it's been over for a long time.
The movie series has been over. And then when you
(06:12):
go we went to the Harry Potter world in Universal
and the just the wide range of ages and diverse
groups of people there that shows really popular and a
lot of people connect with it still. Yes, Um, the
movies were huge box office successes and the theme park
is a huge hit, huge money maker. Someone will wait
(06:34):
in about a four hour line to get to the
ride four to five hours. Yes. Uh. The last four
installments of the books set records for fastest selling books,
and the last one sold eleven million copies in twenty
four hours, the first twenty four hours. Yes, And my
favorite thing I did with that one is. I wrote
(06:56):
out my theory before I read it, as you know
I like to do, and as I was reading, I
updated the theory. And you know, towards seven am, the
theory is perhaps not very good, and it was really funny.
I thought the spirit of Dumbledore was trapped inside a
wand and it was gonna come out. I'm so glad
(07:17):
I wrote it down, though it gives me so much store.
Did you include then, too, your fan infection, though as
it wasn't in the actual books you created your own.
I did not include that in my fan fiction. No,
you needed we do. You needed to do something right.
It's unfinished. Oh gosh, but I know it's true. It's true.
Maybe I could bring Harry back. Also, I forgot about this.
(07:41):
The New York Times created a second best so not
a second best seller list, specifically for children's literature, because
the Harry Potter books were taking up all of them
and people were matt like authors were mad about it.
So they did that in the year two thousand, before
Goblet of Fire came out. Smart Yeah, and the value
(08:01):
of the franchise is estimated to be around twenty five
billion dollars, one of the most lucrative franchises of all
times still going. It is still fantastic beasts stuff in
the place which I did see. I did see it.
The popularity of the series has Yeah, it spawned a
massive fandom, essays upon essays, fan fiction books about all
(08:25):
kinds of aspects of Harry Potter. I have a book
that my mom gave me that kind of teaches you
how to do divination, read poems, have class word starts
that you gave me. That is all Harry Potter, which
I love. That's right, I forgot about that. UM tourism
plays viral YouTube videos parodies real life quidditch, and podcasts
(08:49):
and podcasts just where we are. UM, so we do
have a guest with us today. But before we get in,
disclaimer one. We were on a time crunch, so we
could have talked forever, right, but we had to kind
of keep it tight. Uh And then to think, I
say this in there. I read the books twenty two
times each when I was young, each each. I have
(09:11):
a weird thing with numbers, but I have I've only
read them once since then, and it was a couple
of years ago. But I still feel pretty confident I
can win any trivia contest. So far, I have not
let myself down in that regard, but I haven't. I
haven't read them since I've become kind of in this
(09:31):
show and looking at things from a feminist lens all
of the time. I think there's sort of a natural
thing that happens when you're a woman and you do that.
But I wasn't super analytical as what I'm trying to say.
But all right, let's let our guests introduce yourself. My
name is Snassy Ballspan and I am the hole post
of Harry Potter and the Sacre Test and the host
(09:53):
of Hot and Bothered, and on Harry Potter sacre Test,
we treat Harry Potter like it was a sacred test?
Can we say that, um sacred is an action and
not a thing, and it depends on how you interacted
the thing. And so we um talk sort of talk
to Harry Potter and mastic questions about our lives and
see what advance is back and then I'm hot and fathered.
(10:14):
You do that was romance novels um so reading and
writing her Ancient Sacred Practices and on Hairy Potting sacre tracts,
Reading the Sacred and m bothered. We treat working a
sacred and can you what is the benefit of of
doing that, of treating it as a sacred text or
(10:35):
how does that help you shape UM episodes? Yeah, Um,
I mean there are a couple of benefits. First of all,
it's just incredibly earnest. I think that you know, we
all can get bogged out in cynicism and sarcasm, and
this is a place where we bring like genuine love
(10:57):
and our unabashed in our nerve them. Um. I'm actually
not sure what that like, Karen Border, that was being nursery.
But um, the other world benefit is community, you know.
The I mean, I feel like we all know that's
that millennials and younger are having an absolute epidemic of
(11:18):
learning note with the isolation button by technology leading to
higher level of profession and anxiety. And I worked with
college students for the last seven years and UM, it's
really wild to be the increase of acute mental health
problems and UM and that it is entirely due to
(11:40):
isolation and social isolation, to feelings as though you're connecting
even when you're not. UM, and so treating something is
sacred one of the key tenants of doing so in community.
And so we have over fifty five Harry Potter and
Picker text rattle groups followed the beat all over the world.
They've learned a lot via started Black Pelo seventeen people.
(12:01):
We tried to do as many lives events as possible
and appleizes on FEO. People turned to each other and
Harry Potter is pretty special as far is building community.
It is so ubiquitous. You know, you can like say,
ralot of one one hey, don't otherwise see the same
language abs and we'll feel like too um and so really,
(12:24):
you know, we maybe each other and Harry Potter is
a great way to bring people together who other wives
not necessarily have a lot in common. Yes, I totally agree.
And as we were discussing before we got started, I
am a huge Harry Potter fan. I don't think it's
a secret to anyone listening that that is true. And
(12:44):
I was one of the people that when the first
book came out, I grew up with the characters. I
graduated high school when the last book came out, and
graduated college when the last movie came out, And it
was just a really formative and impactful thing on my
whole life. UM. So I was wondering if you could
speak to to your Harry Potter story and how you
(13:05):
got into this specifically. Yeah, I wasn't really embarrassing Harry
Potter story. I'm a little too old for it, um,
and so I didn't. I just didn't read it um
as a kid. And then in my early twenties I
started dating with I w I ended up doing with
for seven years. She's wonderful and good friend and he
(13:28):
on our first date it came out that I haven't
read Harry Potter and he had a red Kane air.
And so what we did for our second date was
we went to a bookstore and I bought him Jane
Eyre and he bought me the first two Harry Potter
Got only Spots and Um, Janior is now one of
my favorite books, and Harry Potter is now how I
make a living. So I would say it was a
(13:50):
stressful spot um. And it really, you know, the first
the first book I could have read for him, and
then the second one, I was like, I freaking love it, um,
And yeah, I didn't really turn back. But what did
end up happening was I went I went to Divinity
Epool and tu to Divinity Popool because I should work
(14:14):
to education for ten years, and it was getting really
despondent over what. I just realized that we actually know
how to pick through education system, but it is like
racism that prevents us to the country and from fixing
our education system, and that to me seems like a
soul problem more than a wasn't a like education work
(14:37):
form policy issue. And so I went to Divinity School
thinking that I wanted to understand to the heart behind behind,
like why we hate each other. And then I got
about halfway to Divinity School and was like, Oh, it's
really awkward that I'm here because I'm an atheist and
I don't really know how to get most out of it.
(14:57):
And every time I tried to pay with the Bible,
I get really distracted, you know, the granshops, Holocaust divisors,
and so any prayer and temple having to do with
like benevolents, I'm like, You're like not great at that um.
And so I asked one of my favorite professors if
she would teach me how to pray using Jane Eyre,
(15:19):
because um, I loved Jane Eyre, and so I thought
it would be easier and all of that. I realized that,
you know, Jane Eyre has the effecting problems, but the
Bible has a met debory. But Chad, it was born
out of an imperfect world and um, and so it
is incredibly imperfect. And we developed, you know, we disveloped
this idea that you know, just talked to that, this
(15:41):
idea I didn't develop that we on first to. This
idea is that and something doesn't have to be perfect
in order for it to be sacred, and nothing right,
like nothing is perfect. And so I started running a
Jane Eyre the Distake Protector reading group and it was
a really beautiful and like party group of four women
(16:04):
who came out every week in the Boston winter, and
it was it was the winter was that we got
a home bench in a month and it was just
the Lea shows. He was always going out and it
was still Nate and um. One week, my son Cap
came just to sort of see what I was up to,
and at the end he was like, this was really
cool what you're up to, but it would be even
cooler if we didn't with a book that people actually
(16:26):
wanted to read. And I was like, what working people
actually want to read. And he was like, well, carry
Potter and I was like, oh yeah, that's a really
good idea. And we ran the class with nd people
came and then we started hearing people from all over
the world saying, I've heard your wanting a Harry Potter
sper took five night joint I'd skype in from New
(16:49):
Zealand and UM on our from that. You know, we
were trying to figure out what to do with that
because people were sharing really vulnerable things and we didn't
think screen get it yet, not fun, not recommended to
make a podcast, And now we have just huge international
community of people reading Harry Potter. Gred, that was a
(17:11):
very long answer to your question. I love it answer.
It was great, UM. And that's something I've on a
much smaller scale experienced when UM, one of my best
friends to this day, we met because she had a
Harry Potter folder and it was seventh grade and I
was like, oh, I've got to I've got to talk
to her. UM. So the header on your site reads
(17:33):
reading fiction doesn't help us escape the world. It helps
us live in it. And I think for a lot
of people books, fictional books, and particularly maybe Harry Potter,
which is really popular but aim towards children, even though
adults love it as well. Um, it's easy to dismiss um.
And I was wondering if you could expound on that header.
(17:53):
And also, what do you think the value of examining
these works of fiction through a feminist lens? What do
you think that value is? Yeah, I mean, I'll just talk,
you know, talk about my own history with bridging book.
I was a weird kid. A lot of us were,
and I was like too loud and um, everyone called
(18:19):
me like bossy and you know, I was like in
a sort of girl in the eighties. Um. And then
I I read the book Caddy Woodlawn and I felt
so seen by the character of Caddy in a way
that you know. And I had a best friend and
she brothers. I was very close too, but really in
(18:42):
a way that um, I've never felt seen by um,
by a person, you know, just because you get to
know all of their inner thoughts when you're reading a book.
And my mom heard me talk about how much I
loved it, and so she read it and um, you know,
it was gared toward third graders. She read it fairly
(19:04):
quickly and um. And there was a scene between a
mother and a daughter saying, I know that you think
I don't love you because I always tell you to
act more lady like and but um, like we put like,
I love you so much my mom's box the two
pages and I put a star on it, and it like,
(19:25):
it just changed my entire sense of self knowing that
my mom also the mom charge was made with my mom,
and Chatty West made with me, and I gave us
the way to talk about things that are really hard
to talk about. Right when you're eight or nine years old,
you don't call your mom inside and say I feel
(19:46):
if you don't love me because I'm loud, um, And
your mom doesn'tmploy you aside and say I know I
get mad at you, but like I love you more
than anything. Basically, I just found that we need something
be focusing on outside of ourselves to have difficult conversations. Right,
you put two people in front of a football game
(20:06):
and it's something that yell at every minute, they're going
to be more likely to have that awkward conversation. Um.
Then if you're just like in a room together having
to look into each other's eyes. Um, and we say
this just you know, when I was a chaplain and
I was meeting a university students, it would come and
see me and I'd say, how do it. You know
(20:27):
what brought you to visit today? And they'd be like, oh,
I don't know. Um. And so the deal I would
always make is I'd say, you know, bringing me um,
then me a favorite poem or a favorite essaye or
um whatever favorite song, and I would read it and
then look get back together in a week when we
will just talk about this thing together. And you know,
(20:51):
you have two minutes into talking about from David's After
Law short story and suddenly it's like, well, I'm wearing
out my dad, add because and there's just something so
freeing about a tax um. It means that you're not alone,
right If you get to know the inside of somebody
else thought process UM, and it resonates with you. It
(21:14):
just it makes you feel like a part of the
world again. UM. So I just think that there's something
really special and inspirational and UM. And I think that
the more isolated in the process originalized you are, the
more that that can be true. UM. You know a
friend of mine who ended up setting a chopping with
(21:36):
me over her word. He grew up as like a
queer Kidnell, North Carolina and being able to read, you know,
Dann Savage really like saved his life on a daily basis.
So I think that, And you know, reading James Bald
because a huge James problem fan, and I think reading
Gilanisburn and knowing that he wasn't the only one like
(21:59):
that and save ten. So I think that, Yeah, so
we can be more vulnerable in front of books they
don't judge us. Yeah, I agree, and you can you
can connect and kind of it's a way to explore
things or ideas that might be scary to you. All right, Yeah,
(22:21):
it is. It's nice to be involved in something that
you feel like you're a part of it, and you're
part of a different world that's kind of outside of yourself,
which is really nice. And I didn't want to come
back to Any's question about how do you feel like
this came in with like the feminist perspective of Harry Potter.
Why was it so important that it came into this
role for you as you're journeying and having the conversation
(22:43):
about a connection in different type of literature or written text.
Where did you come in like and let's talk about feminism.
Let's talk about the women of Harry Potter. How did
that come about? So you know, I don't know what
inspired me to do it exactly, but at the end
of every episode of Harry Pottery, Protective bless a character
from the chapters, not Captive's idea, casts a really big
(23:06):
fan of blessings. He's a big fan of the poet
John or Johnny Hue, who talks a lot about offering
less things um and out of talk Claret and then
I said that I'm a a gonna blessed women, and
Casper was looking all okay then as saminism, and and
it just became I said, I was going to do
(23:27):
it for the first book, but now we're in book
six and I have only blessed women. I had to
get lung chapter where I just said I would like
to bless all these invisible women because the women in it.
And it just has become such a rigorous practice of um,
of really trying to lift up the women who I
(23:49):
might not notice otherwise, I don't think I'd ever really
paid attention to madam Osmarda or um to Padma or
but I would get sick of bunding her. Mighty, I
love her my name, she deserves all the blessings in
the entire world. But just out of sheer boredom of
my own boy saying her name, I'd be like, I've
got to find another woman in this chapter. UM. And
(24:13):
also just the limitations to the lab has forced me,
you know, to bless women that I never thought I
would bless. You know, it's there's the chapter UM of
Spinners ends and Beltricks and Mercessar are the only two
women in that chapter. And so it's like, Okay, I
want to find a way to open my heart and
(24:34):
be compassionate to one of these two women. And you know,
I remember the chapter with um when do we get
introduced to Dabby, but to me as the only woman
in that chapter? UM. And so it's it has forced
me to list up women the way that we know
that women are on the outside of um, of board
(24:56):
room tables and on the outside of a lot of decisions.
It's forced me to It's forced me to pay attention
to the woman on the outside, the men in the middle. Yeah,
I before we did this, I made a list of
all the female characters and I was just thinking about Okay,
but well, how could I look at this one like
as a through feminism lens of feminism? And before I
(25:17):
came in here, I read so many research papers, mostly
about her mining and it was very heated. I was
kind of surprised at the ongoing debate about her character.
Was one of the things, whether she should have been
with Harry Ron. No, most of it was actually like
(25:38):
out of context. She cried this one time she was perfect,
everyone made. I mean, she's obviously not perfect. She's actually
quite violent and can be horrible, and what she does
to marry out an edge Stone is unforgivable. She's wonderful,
I agree, Okay, yeah, so her money. Yeah, she's the
(25:59):
source of a lot of debate because she is the
primary female character in the books. Um. In my personal take,
when I was reading all of this criticism of her,
I do feel like they took it out of context
and didn't look within the arc of her whole character
in all of the books, because she does start out
kind of being damseled. She's got a crush on Lockhart.
(26:21):
But like if I examined one instance from when I
was that age, I wasn't like a super feminist. She
was one that came to the rescue almost every time,
no matter what situation was happening. Yes, so yeah, let's
talk about her money. You look so excused. I wish
you could see her face right now. She's just grinning
(26:41):
from ear to ear. It so excited right now. I mean,
my job's middle name is how MONI there. I love
Harry Potter too. I don't know if I'm any level
of Harry Potter. She definitely wears all the gear. But
I definitely do know all all the books and did
love love everything about it. And I did love also,
(27:04):
Just to put this in context, that it did grow.
Each book grew with the age of the children and
the like. The darkness and the depth of it grew
with all of it, which is very fun. But yeah,
let's talk about her money. I think for me, one
of the first things I think of her money is
she's so smart, such a badass. They would have died
without her. And the interesting thing there is some people
(27:26):
criticize that because she was had the higher expectations placed
on her. If she hadn't done packed the bag and
definitely Hallows for example, what would they have done? Um,
So she was just expected to. And she even complains
about that. And that's the interesting thing about her or
one of them, because she is in many ways interesting.
But she calls it out, and she calls out multiple
(27:49):
kind of gender stereotypes that they're placing on her throughout
the series, Um, which is it's self away are in
a way like, yes, this is a problematic thing, but
I recognize it's a problematic thing. Well, I don't think
it's the boys aren't supposed to be like super fun
(28:11):
about right, it's exposing a dynamic. But I think there's
absolutely the case. And the characters are supposed to be
some my understanding, even a couple of years older, are
you and um? Because I think that right, like they
were born in nineteen and so you know that these
are like Scarry's realistic conversations with young people we're having,
(28:36):
right Like, why should I do that? Because in the goal, um,
and so I think that they are discovering their voices.
And I also think that, you know, I think that's
the thinking about her mine as a black character. It's
also really helpful because it would in some ways triple
(28:59):
justify all the tacks on her of being novel born
in a visiting world of being a woman in a
man's world and then being a black witch in England.
I think, of course she's going to be in this
accomplished young woman very I mean, she's growing it, but
she of course that wasn't harder than anybody else if
(29:21):
she has all of that to carry on her. Um
So yeah, and I think the boys are good for her.
But I also think that we all sometimes have done
run type of boys in our lives. And I don't
think she's a problematic character. I think she's a complicated character.
(29:41):
I agree. Um, I definitely didn't read and I haven't
read them again since I mean a couple of years,
but I read them like twenty times when I was
a kid, and I never was reading it like she
was just as strong as character, like that's that's what
I took from it. And I always thought she was
working hard because she was a muggle morn and she
(30:02):
did have something she felt like she had something prove.
But also she just really was into it right exactly,
which the real personalities apparently. But yeah, she was a
nerd type of personality who absolutely wanted to make sure
she was on point at all times. Yeah, which most
(30:22):
successful women or those who identifies fimls have to be
to prove that they can do something, that they have
to be a hundred sure that they can prove themselves
before they speak out loud, which is absolutely reflected with
her mind's character. And I was so interesting that the
fist comparisoned me with him the book Ernie mcnellan, who's
(30:44):
also like studier and um in bad being right about
ever last thing, and he does not come off while
as a character um he becomes prefactive apple path. He
you know, he's the only one who made sit into
potions in a couple of tis in the sixth year.
And so as far as the direct comparison to her money,
(31:06):
we see a boy who is, as you know, obsessed
with success, and I think that he's written, um, just
as like snivelly as her money is. So I don't
think that there's like a sex gendered access to that.
I think there's sexism in the book, but I don't
(31:28):
think that books right. I feel like in the book
that had the most problematic issues with the girlfriends, the
Ron's girlfriend and then um Harry's girlfriend what's her name? Yeah,
in which they are seeing a shrill and overly jealous,
which like they kind of compete with Hermione almost as
a pitted woman gets a girl gets a girl, which
(31:51):
was always bothered me the most was like, why do
they have to all hate each other? I think that's
exactly right, especially lading to her, who is written for
a laugh and um, really Want is terrible to her,
Want is using her to make her money is Alas
because he's Stiffy feels not stilly, he's feels ashamed about
(32:13):
the fact that he hasn't kissed anybody in her money,
has kissed pictor m and he just uses her and
then the book mocks her and it's really terrible and
then she dies. I mean, it's just it's really Lavender
gets the real short end of this day. Luckily, Sam
fiction I think has resurrected Lavender to a large extent,
(32:34):
but the books don't do her any favors. Have you
any included her in your fan fiction Lavender at any point,
so I've written, Harry Putter fan fiction. I don't know
why some manth is bringing this up right now, because
she brought up and you do a really great job
with fan faction, I understand. So I actually really don't
like romance. The lavender never featured, but maybe I should
(32:56):
give her a redemptive arc um Are her money do
some kind of adventure together? Maybe my favorite romantic us
written four Lavenders that Hurt and Parvety run a way together,
because I realized that not just Ben love, but I
love a love story. We have some more of our
(33:19):
discussion around Harry Potter, but first we have one quick
break forward from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. UM.
(33:39):
I did want to go back to her money because
when it comes to reading about feminism and Harry Potter,
it always comes up. As few do remember it didn't
get enough playtime on the movies. It wasn't in the
movies at all at all, and that it was very
sad about that. It was a very important part of
(33:59):
her It really was. Yeah, So for listeners who don't know,
this is the Society for Promotion of Elvish Welfare. She
starts fire in the fourth one except for Dobby one right,
which I do find really interesting because because you can say,
that's sort of like intersectional feminism at play. Um exactly right, right.
(34:26):
So I didn't know this, but it was based on
one of the first organizations for women in Britain calls
View Society for promoting the employment of women. I do
not know that this second bring in some new facts.
I try. I try. Another thing she does is she
(34:46):
starts Dumbledore's Army because something else that comes up a
lot is building community two tackle issues, and she is
the one often frequently spearheading these things and getting things done.
So I I feel like she doesn't in a lot
of ways encompass sort of where we are right now
with feminism, which is interesting. That's interesting. Yeah, And I
(35:09):
think you know, all we can act to people that
they learned um and she learned from you right, Like
it goes horribly. I mean, she does such a better
job as that as the founder of Jumbledore's Army of
like really scaffolding it um so that everybody feels like
(35:30):
a part of it, of getting you know, buy in
early on, of having here you'd be the teacher. Um.
She was a much better job organizing rather than preaching UM.
And I feel like as far as like teenage activism goes,
it's pretty great. She was like at the time she
(35:50):
was fifteen or sixteen, she's nailed at fifteen. Yeah, I
gret A Thurnberg. Yes, oh yeah, doesn't been really happy.
I wasn't expecting that she just clutched her heart. I did.
I I had girls, they would have been clutched. Sorry.
Her mane one of the Year and level in the
(36:13):
Wizarding World. Um So, since in the interest of time,
I had all these characters written out, but because we're
kind of on a time crunch, are there are there moments?
Are characters that, as far as feminism goes, are your
favorite or are things that you really like to to
(36:33):
dig into your discuss Yeah, I think that, um, Jenny
has become a really interesting character to be thinking about
with the newtube movement happening. I you know, the first
three times I read the book, but I did not
read Jinny as like an assault victim, which obviously she
(36:57):
is the palm Liddle's diary and um and I just
think the most one of the most beautiful moments in
the whole series is when he when Jimmy concerned Perry
and says, I can't believe you can't come talk to me.
It's not like I have been possessed by Voldemort or anything,
(37:18):
and here goes, oh my god, I'm sorry I forgot,
and she says lucky you, and that lucky you just
holds the whole netwo movement to me of you know,
lucky society that they've gotten to turn away from this
lucky lucky Harvey Wine scene with the fact that yesterday
(37:38):
we found out he's not going to get any deal
time when he's not about to pay a dime of
the day and money. Um, and I think Jimmy is
just holding up a movement with that lucky you and um,
and Molly's love for James. You know, she's screens Jimmy
(37:59):
and Buck to know it's all caps at an exclamation
point and then obviously there's not my daughter, you bitch
moment um. And so I thinking Molly and Jenny have
a real bond that is, to a large extent obviously
the mother and daughter, but I also think to the
large extent is based in trauma and Jenny wanting to
(38:20):
be out the world in Molly's really wanting to protect
her um. And it's just it's a really beautifully rot
description and um, the situation that I think is all
be familiar. Yeah, um, that's that's a good moment. And
I also had forgotten that in the sixth one Ron
(38:43):
kind of sledge shameser and you're gonna call me what
what I know? Oh my gosh, it's like say it,
do it. I dare you to do it, because well,
you know, she could win, that's right. Um. And I
(39:05):
did want to touch on because I feel like a
lot of people forget about Lily Pottery and she, I mean,
her act of sacrifice and love in the beginning is
kind of the most powerful thing. That's kind of her
whole character overall, with Snap and all that. She is
just a compassionate individual who goes for the underdog. Yeah.
(39:27):
And you only have kind of the sanitized version of
what Harry knows because he's a narrator. But she did,
she does this thing, and that throughout the books is
the strong, powerful, kind of defining thing. Um. And I
have read a lot of fan fiction where they're like,
you know, really, she's the one that's powerful, the power,
(39:48):
you know, not and people don't credit her right where
they should, right. Yeah, And we do a piece some
like memories of Snap, Um, she was willing to stand
up to him. We see that memory of Lily and Petunia,
Um fighting it, you know, pat for mine in three
(40:10):
quarters and really and trying to get Petunia on board.
Um with the fact that she's going to hazards. Right.
We see a lot of Lily and I think she
was pretty exceptional. And even if she wasn't, I think
the fact that she does. You know, I think the
James because a short end of the stick, because James
made the same sacrifice for both Harry and Lily's um.
(40:34):
But I love that this one active sacrifice to give
him so much meaning because I think it came. We
think once ACTI sacrifice can changed the courts of someone's life. Um.
And it's really beautiful. Yeah. Oh, I just remember reading
the seventh book as sobbing, sobbing. There's so many memories
(40:56):
in our face. I know we do have a little
bit more for listeners, but first we have one more
group break for work from our sponsor. We're back, so
(41:19):
I didn't want to come back to because you talked
about Jane Eyre being your favorite book, and I don't
hear I hear a few people talk about that, but
I don't hear many people saying that as their favorite.
I love Jane Eyre because I love le Bronte Sisters.
Because I also liked Weathering Heights. I know that's way
out there as well. Um, but what was it about
Jane Eyre that made you connect so heartily in us,
(41:43):
like almost a spiritual level with that book and the character?
You know, it's such a good question. It's just such
a good It's just such a good book. So that Um,
obviously first time fourteen and I love a love story.
So I'm pretty sure that I loved the love story.
(42:06):
And then it just meets be where you are, you know,
and I reread it, um as I was thinking about
going in divinity school. In Spinjon just became like the
most interesting character to me, how he tried to manipulate
her with religion, and then I, you know, I'd really
just fallen in love with so fad Um. She is
(42:31):
she brings down the whole house with her when she goes,
and I just love her for it. I love her
for her cardinality and that she isn't just gonna die.
She's done in this story, so she does, um, And
(42:51):
so I I just think that it is it is
like so complicated and layers and and I guess the
other thing I love about it is just how weird
it is it's like some weird mystical fairies and sprites
and true you know, lightning, hidden trees symbolically, and it's
(43:13):
I mean, it's just a delightful hot mess. Is honestly
great because it's like that and even weird are even
more so. Yeah, I think I just you know, doing
I read Weather in high school pertimen christeen Misiskina and
I didn't understand the words. And so now we're doing
(43:33):
a um Wathering Heights pilgrimage this Jean Severn in the
middle of setting up. Um, it's really interesting having been
to how Worth now where the Bronte personages, and that
town is really an Emily Bronte town. You go there
and talk about Charlotte and they're like, no, thank you,
we wan Yeah it was there for being air last
(43:58):
year and they were like, you're here for the long book. Um,
we're going back to this year with Wathering Types. I'll say,
you'll get the correct book and a little more welcoming. Huh.
Maybe Bill has moved on to Anne, but I think, um, yeah,
(44:18):
I'm really waited to spend some time with Weather and
Type because of the next eight months of really diving
into it again. But you know, Jane is just simpler
and it's more straightforward. It's an eatier way in and
wuthering types. Jane. I remember being one of the first
books where they had the not so attractive girl being
(44:39):
the lead and the way they describe her. Yeah, absolutely,
she you know, you see yourself. She's a you're invited
to yourself into Jane. All right, I like this little
bonus Jane Eyre. What was caught up in those times?
Jane Austen Janey, I mean Jane Austen and the Bronte
(45:00):
Sisters two of my favorites. I'm old school that way,
really really old school. Apparently you should come on one
of our pilgrimages some time. Oh, we'll be there, Plan
number fifty something trips, Like anytime people invite us, I
hope they're serious. Oh no, I'm totally serious. You should
(45:21):
talk about it. Yes, please, Well have a Bronte and
oh my gosh. Alright, alright, yeah, well we'll be in
we have to go that way, yes, yes, let's go.
Um and would you like to tell the listeners where
(45:41):
they can find you? Yep, Um, you can find us
wherever you're listening to this podcast right now. You can
find Harry Potter and the staked test or if you
are more and more a normal person, you can find
hot and buttered. And that brings us to the end
of this interview. Yes, it was so fun. We could
(46:02):
have kept going forever. And as you heard, we were
talking about doing that tour with I'm Janair and for
all the bronze stuff and um Jane Austin stuff. But
you know, we should have talked about going on the
tour for Harry Potter stuff. Can we do that? Is
that thing? Can we do that? Oh? Yeah, okay, Oh
my gosh. You can go visit the studio in London
and making of Harry Potter and it's so I've been
(46:23):
to the theme parks. That thing in London is my
favorite thing. I went to the train station train stuff.
I went there when I would visit my friend in London.
She took me there. She's like, here it is and
I was like, oh, people waiting inline, I'm not doing that.
Well talk about the power of Harry Potter. That's not
even they built that because you can't actually get to
the ruin. But so many tours were jumping over the
trains and well, not jumping over trains, but they were
(46:45):
they were taking away to it, right, so they built
a fake one makes it's just come over here, stay
away from they don't go near the train tracks. Okay.
UM really quickly didn't want to touch on some characters
because I know we didn't. There's so many that we
could have talked about. One a fan favorite is Luna
(47:06):
Um And one of my favorite things about Luna is
the relationship between her and Harry because it's platonic and
I love when she says he invites her to the
slug club, the slug ball, right, and she says, oh, people,
well think for our friends, and Harry says so earnestly,
you are my friend, right, And it's just nice. I
(47:27):
feel like we don't get that kind of relationship. Even
though we didn't have a lot of screen time. We
don't see that a lot. He's never judging her for
and she's just going to be herself and that's fine. Well.
I love the Luna and what's his name? The other one,
the one that could have been Harry Neville Neville. I
love that Luna and Neville are such good friends in
(47:47):
the movie. They do a little more in the movie
than they in the book, will you try to kind
of protect each other? Almost it was super sweet, super cute. Yeah,
the oddball is oddballs together. Yes, speaking of oddball Tonks,
she's a pretty big I love that she's somehow both
really clumsy but really good at her job because I
(48:08):
feel I can connect. And I think if they don't
play enough about her being a part of that the
Beltricks and um, all of their family, I think that's
important that they kind of kind of escape over. Yeah
in the movie for sure, for sure, that kind of
barely mentioned it. And then even in the book that
kind of bypass it to being her in love with
(48:30):
Lupin Yes, yeah, um. And then there's Professor McGonagall of course,
super tough. I love I love her stuff in the
last book when she's defending Harry, I love it like
it doesn't and it doesn't show it in the movie.
But I love that scene where she's going up against
the two twins. Yeah, that is a great scene. I
(48:51):
didn't want to touch on floor day Lacre too, because
she's really interesting from where she starts, as you happy,
the and that is all about looks, although people forget
they're also extremely dangerous. Well, the whole Uh, school, it's
just all female. Yeah, and I feel like that's not
mentioned enough. And the strength between them themselves. It's kind
(49:15):
of like downplayed, I feel like, because it's based on
looks and how deceptive they can be in or you know, tricksie.
What does Mr Weasley say? He says, he says something
like sea boys, this is why you don't go for
looks alone. Uh. And she is the unfortunately, the worst competitor,
I would say in the Gobblet of Fire. But he's
(49:37):
the most help as seems. Yes, um, but she did
go on to become a pretty central and powerful character.
And let's not to say she wasn't powerful then, it's
just the way she was portrayed, and especially in comparison
with all the other champions, she did come out looking
like the weakest one. And then villains we have to
talk about umbradge. Oh, talk about problematic white woman. She
(50:04):
that's the angriest I ever got. I had to close
order the Phoenix the fifth one after she banned him
from quidditch. I don't even care about quidditch. I was
just so mad at the injustice of it. Oh, she's infuriating,
But I do think having a female villallin like that.
It just added so much. I mean clearly, I think
(50:25):
a lot of people would say she was the least like,
the most hated character, and that's that's a testament to
oh gosh, the writing, but also the actress. She was
exactly that character. She was everything and embodied that character
to the full. Yeah, she's famous English actress, Amelda Staunton Stanton.
(50:51):
And just having that wide cast of here all these heroes,
strong female heroes, but also here are some villains, Belatrick's
being one. She is extremely powerful. I think people forget
at one point she's dueling Luna, Jenny and her mindy.
I think she's doing three people at once. She was powerful,
and she's often put in contrast of Lily represents love
(51:17):
and pure love and she represents just ambition and hate,
like they're the opposite side. She does, she does um
and she was. She was really frightening character I found. Yeah.
And then there's Petunia and Narcissa, who I do find
(51:39):
interesting because even if you probably classify them as villains,
that the mother part of their characters and them going
to protect out of their way to protect their children,
which is very much of a theme through all of it.
Whether it's Molly Wheeley or Lily, all of them is
very protective, very on point. Whether it's bad or good,
(52:03):
they're doing something for in the name of their children. Yeah,
and that's one thing I know. Some of the criticism
I read of characters like that and Molly Weasley is
you're putting them in these gender stereotypes. The mom and
then in response j K Rolling, especially to to Molly Weasley,
(52:23):
she says, Um, the moment when Molly kills Belichick. She
said she wanted Molly to have her moment to show
that because a woman had dedicated herself to her family
does not mean that she doesn't have a lot of
other talents. Yes, and um, one thing I wanted to
close out with because I do generally try to separate
(52:43):
actors from their characters. Um. But Emma Watson is such
an interesting case because I remember being ten years old
feeling extremely jealous that she had been cast. And she
said in an interview, I I literal I remember this probect.
I didn't have to look it up, she said. When
(53:03):
asked about her money, she said, I hate her. I
hate her. I hate her because she was into fashion
and she thought her mind, he just wasn't wasn't cool.
But then she went out as she grew up. As
Emma Watson grew up, she grew to love her money
and loved all those things about her that she was
a warrior and she was smart. And I just I
feel like a lot of us go through that where
(53:25):
we hate the adolescence. We were awkward children and we
hate everything about ourselves. Yes, um, and then now she's
a feminist activist and she's the voice of U n's
he for she. She was appointed as the UN Women
Goodwill Ambassador in July. She did she got good recommendations
(53:47):
on their SOI but a Google search of is Emma
Watson too pretty to play her money? Turns up almost
half a million results. You would never ever see that
with any of the male actors. Is Danny Radcliff, who
hands to play Harry Potter. That would not happen. No,
But I think they did question his height. They did
as a separate episode. They also questioned his eyebrows. I
(54:08):
said they were too feminine. Look, we're we're unpacking a
thing at right at the very end that we should
come back to. Yeah, so clearly we we blew through those.
I could talk about this forever, but we'll have to
end it here today. Definitely, go check out Vanessa's podcasts.
Go go find her on the social media's Women Who Knows,
(54:31):
Harry Potter and Like a Text and Hutton Bothered, which
I just love that. Yes, And if you would like
to reach us you can. Our email is Stuff Media
mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find
us on Instagram as stuff and I'll Never Told You,
or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
to our super producer Andrew Howard Angel, thanks to our
(54:54):
guest Vanessa and Hannah for helping to set it up,
and thanks to you for listening up. Rem Never Told
You's a protection of I Heart Radio's house networks for
more podcast from my Heart Radio of his Diheartradio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha, and welcome to stuff.
I've never told your production if I heart ideas has
to work. Today we are talking about one of my
favorite things. Oh my god, Yes, so exciting, Harry Potter.
(00:25):
And while yes, I could just talk about Harry Potter,
we're gonna look at women and feminism of Harry pottermatic yes, yeah,
and bonus Jane are discussion, yes, which I love. But
I also love Harry Potter, so I'm not. I don't
know why I'm acting so cool about it, because I do.
I really you and I bonded the fact that I
do really love Harry Potter. I just don't go all
out and where the things as fiction. I see, I
(00:49):
see your subtle job, not subtle job. I am may
a people who love things, and I love Harry Potter. Um.
It was and slashed still is because my mom. You know,
when she likes something, it's forever, it's my thingy. Every
year she gives Harry Potter. So no, every time I
think about a present, I'm like, I can't do Harry Potter.
I know her Mom's going to get her like everything,
(01:11):
so that's fine. She's covered from probably mid middle of
middle school to high school. Every year she got me
these really ornate Harry Potter snow globes. They're awesome and
I don't know what to do with them because my
apartment is really small, but I love them. If you
could put it like tape to the wall, that'd be
best for you. Wouldn't it snowlo taped to the wall?
(01:33):
Nothing could go wrong. UM. I will say you are
one of the more fun people to buy for because
you have a lot of loves that's very tangible, which
is really nice. So thank you for being that person.
You're welcome. Yeah, I did it all for you. UM.
So there are a few significant moments in my life that, um,
were made by my love of Harry Potter. There are
(01:53):
certain trips I take I took that were for Harry Potter.
There were for other things, right, but Harry Potter was
in there, and I am of the generation that aged
with it. I graduated high school when the last book
came out, um, and I graduated college when the last
movie came out. It was a really big part of
my life. You know. I actually had a really good
(02:14):
friend of mine from college who was also loved. She
was the reason I started watching Harry Potter because she
loved it so much. I actually went to a midnight
viewing of Harry Potter, Harry Potter and Goblet of Fire.
That's what I think got me into starting. Oh, I
actually like this, let me go back and read what happened.
And also because I can't wait, I want to know
what happened. So I went forward and started reading everything.
(02:36):
And I think by the time I got into it,
everything was published, so I was already cool into it.
But this was her escape, Like she had a really
really rough childhood, very empathetic to the point that it
hurts her. She's one of those, and having Harry Potter
as her world, it's a part of who she was,
really helped her, I think, survive a bit of the
(02:57):
backlash that was her family, not the Bilash, but the
problems that were within her family, within her family and
her own like financial stuff. Harry Potter got her through
a lot of that. So Yeah, I think I love
that we were going to talk about this because that's
exactly what she kind of jumps into, which I never
thought about. Yeah, and interestingly, kind of off of that,
(03:19):
if you go back in her traumic says my most
probably my most dramatic time was fourteen to fifteen, and
that's when Goblet of Fire came out, and I just
remember taking such refuge in it, even though it was
probably the first one that was really difficult, but it
was it just swept you up and there they're essentially mysteries,
(03:41):
and so you're trying to figure out who did it,
what's going on, and it was it was also yeah,
for me, a way to kind of deal with what
I was going through. And they continued to be that.
Um yeah, I've made friends off of them, so it
was so powerful and I did to give a brief overview.
(04:01):
We're not the only people who like Harry Potter. Surprise, surprise. Um.
The first book, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, came
out in and the series of seven books went on
to sell millions of copies, five hundred million copies more
than that, it's the best selling series of books of
all time. Um. Yeah. And for people who didn't grow
(04:24):
up during this or maybe somehow missed it, it's hard
to capture how popular they were. We waited in line
at bookstores at midnight. They had midnight releases of books
which was ridiculously rare. Yes, and then we would stay
up all night and read them. I have pictures of
everyone because I actually didn't get into them until the
third one came out. So I have a picture of
(04:46):
four through seven, me and all my friends. It's five am,
and we're trying to beat each other, right, and I'd
love to find that it's still on going. My niece
who was still in high school, I think she's now
ninth grade. Oh, I'm sorry, Grace, I'm sorry Annie, Whoa,
I'm sorry, Addie. There's too many nieces and nephew I'm
(05:07):
sorry to God, they're all A's except Um. Anyway, she
has now gotten into it and it's completely obsessed and
loves everything about Harry Potter and I love it. It's
been so long, people, last book was released, all the
movies are done. People have kind of gone on, but
it's still a big thing in their world and in
the world because it's kind of timeless, kind of like
(05:29):
The Lord of the rings Um and all of the trilogy.
It kind of continues, goes, continue, continues to be relevant
because it's their own world, which is fantastic. Yeah, my nephew,
he's eight or nine, he just got into them, and
I feel like the coolest person ever because he visited
my old house where I grew up, and it was
essentially a shrine Harry Potter, and it's all been confined
(05:50):
into one section now that doesn't really fit with the
adult guest room vibe the rest of the room. But
he goes in there and he's just in love. And
we've gotten, um, like a trivia contest with each other,
and just seeing that level of fandom for this book
series that, yeah, it's been over for a long time.
The movie series has been over. And then when you
(06:12):
go we went to the Harry Potter world in Universal
and the just the wide range of ages and diverse
groups of people there that shows really popular and a
lot of people connect with it still. Yes, Um, the
movies were huge box office successes and the theme park
is a huge hit, huge money maker. Someone will wait
(06:34):
in about a four hour line to get to the
ride four to five hours. Yes. Uh. The last four
installments of the books set records for fastest selling books,
and the last one sold eleven million copies in twenty
four hours, the first twenty four hours. Yes, And my
favorite thing I did with that one is. I wrote
(06:56):
out my theory before I read it, as you know
I like to do, and as I was reading, I
updated the theory. And you know, towards seven am, the
theory is perhaps not very good, and it was really funny.
I thought the spirit of Dumbledore was trapped inside a
wand and it was gonna come out. I'm so glad
(07:17):
I wrote it down, though it gives me so much store.
Did you include then, too, your fan infection, though as
it wasn't in the actual books you created your own.
I did not include that in my fan fiction. No,
you needed we do. You needed to do something right.
It's unfinished. Oh gosh, but I know it's true. It's true.
Maybe I could bring Harry back. Also, I forgot about this.
(07:41):
The New York Times created a second best so not
a second best seller list, specifically for children's literature, because
the Harry Potter books were taking up all of them
and people were matt like authors were mad about it.
So they did that in the year two thousand, before
Goblet of Fire came out. Smart Yeah, and the value
(08:01):
of the franchise is estimated to be around twenty five
billion dollars, one of the most lucrative franchises of all
times still going. It is still fantastic beasts stuff in
the place which I did see. I did see it.
The popularity of the series has Yeah, it spawned a
massive fandom, essays upon essays, fan fiction books about all
(08:25):
kinds of aspects of Harry Potter. I have a book
that my mom gave me that kind of teaches you
how to do divination, read poems, have class word starts
that you gave me. That is all Harry Potter, which
I love. That's right, I forgot about that. UM tourism
plays viral YouTube videos parodies real life quidditch, and podcasts
(08:49):
and podcasts just where we are. UM, so we do
have a guest with us today. But before we get in,
disclaimer one. We were on a time crunch, so we
could have talked forever, right, but we had to kind
of keep it tight. Uh And then to think, I
say this in there. I read the books twenty two
times each when I was young, each each. I have
(09:11):
a weird thing with numbers, but I have I've only
read them once since then, and it was a couple
of years ago. But I still feel pretty confident I
can win any trivia contest. So far, I have not
let myself down in that regard, but I haven't. I
haven't read them since I've become kind of in this
(09:31):
show and looking at things from a feminist lens all
of the time. I think there's sort of a natural
thing that happens when you're a woman and you do that.
But I wasn't super analytical as what I'm trying to say.
But all right, let's let our guests introduce yourself. My
name is Snassy Ballspan and I am the hole post
of Harry Potter and the Sacre Test and the host
(09:53):
of Hot and Bothered, and on Harry Potter sacre Test,
we treat Harry Potter like it was a sacred test?
Can we say that, um sacred is an action and
not a thing, and it depends on how you interacted
the thing. And so we um talk sort of talk
to Harry Potter and mastic questions about our lives and
see what advance is back and then I'm hot and fathered.
(10:14):
You do that was romance novels um so reading and
writing her Ancient Sacred Practices and on Hairy Potting sacre tracts,
Reading the Sacred and m bothered. We treat working a
sacred and can you what is the benefit of of
doing that, of treating it as a sacred text or
(10:35):
how does that help you shape UM episodes? Yeah, Um,
I mean there are a couple of benefits. First of all,
it's just incredibly earnest. I think that you know, we
all can get bogged out in cynicism and sarcasm, and
this is a place where we bring like genuine love
(10:57):
and our unabashed in our nerve them. Um. I'm actually
not sure what that like, Karen Border, that was being nursery.
But um, the other world benefit is community, you know.
The I mean, I feel like we all know that's
that millennials and younger are having an absolute epidemic of
(11:18):
learning note with the isolation button by technology leading to
higher level of profession and anxiety. And I worked with
college students for the last seven years and UM, it's
really wild to be the increase of acute mental health
problems and UM and that it is entirely due to
(11:40):
isolation and social isolation, to feelings as though you're connecting
even when you're not. UM, and so treating something is
sacred one of the key tenants of doing so in community.
And so we have over fifty five Harry Potter and
Picker text rattle groups followed the beat all over the world.
They've learned a lot via started Black Pelo seventeen people.
(12:01):
We tried to do as many lives events as possible
and appleizes on FEO. People turned to each other and
Harry Potter is pretty special as far is building community.
It is so ubiquitous. You know, you can like say,
ralot of one one hey, don't otherwise see the same
language abs and we'll feel like too um and so really,
(12:24):
you know, we maybe each other and Harry Potter is
a great way to bring people together who other wives
not necessarily have a lot in common. Yes, I totally agree.
And as we were discussing before we got started, I
am a huge Harry Potter fan. I don't think it's
a secret to anyone listening that that is true. And
(12:44):
I was one of the people that when the first
book came out, I grew up with the characters. I
graduated high school when the last book came out, and
graduated college when the last movie came out, And it
was just a really formative and impactful thing on my
whole life. UM. So I was wondering if you could
speak to to your Harry Potter story and how you
(13:05):
got into this specifically. Yeah, I wasn't really embarrassing Harry
Potter story. I'm a little too old for it, um,
and so I didn't. I just didn't read it um
as a kid. And then in my early twenties I
started dating with I w I ended up doing with
for seven years. She's wonderful and good friend and he
(13:28):
on our first date it came out that I haven't
read Harry Potter and he had a red Kane air.
And so what we did for our second date was
we went to a bookstore and I bought him Jane
Eyre and he bought me the first two Harry Potter
Got only Spots and Um, Janior is now one of
my favorite books, and Harry Potter is now how I
make a living. So I would say it was a
(13:50):
stressful spot um. And it really, you know, the first
the first book I could have read for him, and
then the second one, I was like, I freaking love it, um,
And yeah, I didn't really turn back. But what did
end up happening was I went I went to Divinity
Epool and tu to Divinity Popool because I should work
(14:14):
to education for ten years, and it was getting really
despondent over what. I just realized that we actually know
how to pick through education system, but it is like
racism that prevents us to the country and from fixing
our education system, and that to me seems like a
soul problem more than a wasn't a like education work
(14:37):
form policy issue. And so I went to Divinity School
thinking that I wanted to understand to the heart behind behind,
like why we hate each other. And then I got
about halfway to Divinity School and was like, Oh, it's
really awkward that I'm here because I'm an atheist and
I don't really know how to get most out of it.
(14:57):
And every time I tried to pay with the Bible,
I get really distracted, you know, the granshops, Holocaust divisors,
and so any prayer and temple having to do with
like benevolents, I'm like, You're like not great at that um.
And so I asked one of my favorite professors if
she would teach me how to pray using Jane Eyre,
(15:19):
because um, I loved Jane Eyre, and so I thought
it would be easier and all of that. I realized that,
you know, Jane Eyre has the effecting problems, but the
Bible has a met debory. But Chad, it was born
out of an imperfect world and um, and so it
is incredibly imperfect. And we developed, you know, we disveloped
this idea that you know, just talked to that, this
(15:41):
idea I didn't develop that we on first to. This
idea is that and something doesn't have to be perfect
in order for it to be sacred, and nothing right,
like nothing is perfect. And so I started running a
Jane Eyre the Distake Protector reading group and it was
a really beautiful and like party group of four women
(16:04):
who came out every week in the Boston winter, and
it was it was the winter was that we got
a home bench in a month and it was just
the Lea shows. He was always going out and it
was still Nate and um. One week, my son Cap
came just to sort of see what I was up to,
and at the end he was like, this was really
cool what you're up to, but it would be even
cooler if we didn't with a book that people actually
(16:26):
wanted to read. And I was like, what working people
actually want to read. And he was like, well, carry
Potter and I was like, oh yeah, that's a really
good idea. And we ran the class with nd people
came and then we started hearing people from all over
the world saying, I've heard your wanting a Harry Potter
sper took five night joint I'd skype in from New
(16:49):
Zealand and UM on our from that. You know, we
were trying to figure out what to do with that
because people were sharing really vulnerable things and we didn't
think screen get it yet, not fun, not recommended to
make a podcast, And now we have just huge international
community of people reading Harry Potter. Gred, that was a
(17:11):
very long answer to your question. I love it answer.
It was great, UM. And that's something I've on a
much smaller scale experienced when UM, one of my best
friends to this day, we met because she had a
Harry Potter folder and it was seventh grade and I
was like, oh, I've got to I've got to talk
to her. UM. So the header on your site reads
(17:33):
reading fiction doesn't help us escape the world. It helps
us live in it. And I think for a lot
of people books, fictional books, and particularly maybe Harry Potter,
which is really popular but aim towards children, even though
adults love it as well. Um, it's easy to dismiss um.
And I was wondering if you could expound on that header.
(17:53):
And also, what do you think the value of examining
these works of fiction through a feminist lens? What do
you think that value is? Yeah, I mean, I'll just talk,
you know, talk about my own history with bridging book.
I was a weird kid. A lot of us were,
and I was like too loud and um, everyone called
(18:19):
me like bossy and you know, I was like in
a sort of girl in the eighties. Um. And then
I I read the book Caddy Woodlawn and I felt
so seen by the character of Caddy in a way
that you know. And I had a best friend and
she brothers. I was very close too, but really in
(18:42):
a way that um, I've never felt seen by um,
by a person, you know, just because you get to
know all of their inner thoughts when you're reading a book.
And my mom heard me talk about how much I
loved it, and so she read it and um, you know,
it was gared toward third graders. She read it fairly
(19:04):
quickly and um. And there was a scene between a
mother and a daughter saying, I know that you think
I don't love you because I always tell you to
act more lady like and but um, like we put like,
I love you so much my mom's box the two
pages and I put a star on it, and it like,
(19:25):
it just changed my entire sense of self knowing that
my mom also the mom charge was made with my mom,
and Chatty West made with me, and I gave us
the way to talk about things that are really hard
to talk about. Right when you're eight or nine years old,
you don't call your mom inside and say I feel
(19:46):
if you don't love me because I'm loud, um, And
your mom doesn'tmploy you aside and say I know I
get mad at you, but like I love you more
than anything. Basically, I just found that we need something
be focusing on outside of ourselves to have difficult conversations. Right,
you put two people in front of a football game
(20:06):
and it's something that yell at every minute, they're going
to be more likely to have that awkward conversation. Um.
Then if you're just like in a room together having
to look into each other's eyes. Um, and we say
this just you know, when I was a chaplain and
I was meeting a university students, it would come and
see me and I'd say, how do it. You know
(20:27):
what brought you to visit today? And they'd be like, oh,
I don't know. Um. And so the deal I would
always make is I'd say, you know, bringing me um,
then me a favorite poem or a favorite essaye or
um whatever favorite song, and I would read it and
then look get back together in a week when we
will just talk about this thing together. And you know,
(20:51):
you have two minutes into talking about from David's After
Law short story and suddenly it's like, well, I'm wearing
out my dad, add because and there's just something so
freeing about a tax um. It means that you're not alone,
right If you get to know the inside of somebody
else thought process UM, and it resonates with you. It
(21:14):
just it makes you feel like a part of the
world again. UM. So I just think that there's something
really special and inspirational and UM. And I think that
the more isolated in the process originalized you are, the
more that that can be true. UM. You know a
friend of mine who ended up setting a chopping with
(21:36):
me over her word. He grew up as like a
queer Kidnell, North Carolina and being able to read, you know,
Dann Savage really like saved his life on a daily basis.
So I think that, And you know, reading James Bald
because a huge James problem fan, and I think reading
Gilanisburn and knowing that he wasn't the only one like
(21:59):
that and save ten. So I think that, Yeah, so
we can be more vulnerable in front of books they
don't judge us. Yeah, I agree, and you can you
can connect and kind of it's a way to explore
things or ideas that might be scary to you. All right, Yeah,
(22:21):
it is. It's nice to be involved in something that
you feel like you're a part of it, and you're
part of a different world that's kind of outside of yourself,
which is really nice. And I didn't want to come
back to Any's question about how do you feel like
this came in with like the feminist perspective of Harry Potter.
Why was it so important that it came into this
role for you as you're journeying and having the conversation
(22:43):
about a connection in different type of literature or written text.
Where did you come in like and let's talk about feminism.
Let's talk about the women of Harry Potter. How did
that come about? So you know, I don't know what
inspired me to do it exactly, but at the end
of every episode of Harry Pottery, Protective bless a character
from the chapters, not Captive's idea, casts a really big
(23:06):
fan of blessings. He's a big fan of the poet
John or Johnny Hue, who talks a lot about offering
less things um and out of talk Claret and then
I said that I'm a a gonna blessed women, and
Casper was looking all okay then as saminism, and and
it just became I said, I was going to do
(23:27):
it for the first book, but now we're in book
six and I have only blessed women. I had to
get lung chapter where I just said I would like
to bless all these invisible women because the women in it.
And it just has become such a rigorous practice of um,
of really trying to lift up the women who I
(23:49):
might not notice otherwise, I don't think I'd ever really
paid attention to madam Osmarda or um to Padma or
but I would get sick of bunding her. Mighty, I
love her my name, she deserves all the blessings in
the entire world. But just out of sheer boredom of
my own boy saying her name, I'd be like, I've
got to find another woman in this chapter. UM. And
(24:13):
also just the limitations to the lab has forced me,
you know, to bless women that I never thought I
would bless. You know, it's there's the chapter UM of
Spinners ends and Beltricks and Mercessar are the only two
women in that chapter. And so it's like, Okay, I
want to find a way to open my heart and
(24:34):
be compassionate to one of these two women. And you know,
I remember the chapter with um when do we get
introduced to Dabby, but to me as the only woman
in that chapter? UM. And so it's it has forced
me to list up women the way that we know
that women are on the outside of um, of board
(24:56):
room tables and on the outside of a lot of decisions.
It's forced me to It's forced me to pay attention
to the woman on the outside, the men in the middle. Yeah,
I before we did this, I made a list of
all the female characters and I was just thinking about Okay,
but well, how could I look at this one like
as a through feminism lens of feminism? And before I
(25:17):
came in here, I read so many research papers, mostly
about her mining and it was very heated. I was
kind of surprised at the ongoing debate about her character.
Was one of the things, whether she should have been
with Harry Ron. No, most of it was actually like
(25:38):
out of context. She cried this one time she was perfect,
everyone made. I mean, she's obviously not perfect. She's actually
quite violent and can be horrible, and what she does
to marry out an edge Stone is unforgivable. She's wonderful,
I agree, Okay, yeah, so her money. Yeah, she's the
(25:59):
source of a lot of debate because she is the
primary female character in the books. Um. In my personal take,
when I was reading all of this criticism of her,
I do feel like they took it out of context
and didn't look within the arc of her whole character
in all of the books, because she does start out
kind of being damseled. She's got a crush on Lockhart.
(26:21):
But like if I examined one instance from when I
was that age, I wasn't like a super feminist. She
was one that came to the rescue almost every time,
no matter what situation was happening. Yes, so yeah, let's
talk about her money. You look so excused. I wish
you could see her face right now. She's just grinning
(26:41):
from ear to ear. It so excited right now. I mean,
my job's middle name is how MONI there. I love
Harry Potter too. I don't know if I'm any level
of Harry Potter. She definitely wears all the gear. But
I definitely do know all all the books and did
love love everything about it. And I did love also,
(27:04):
Just to put this in context, that it did grow.
Each book grew with the age of the children and
the like. The darkness and the depth of it grew
with all of it, which is very fun. But yeah,
let's talk about her money. I think for me, one
of the first things I think of her money is
she's so smart, such a badass. They would have died
without her. And the interesting thing there is some people
(27:26):
criticize that because she was had the higher expectations placed
on her. If she hadn't done packed the bag and
definitely Hallows for example, what would they have done? Um,
So she was just expected to. And she even complains
about that. And that's the interesting thing about her or
one of them, because she is in many ways interesting.
But she calls it out, and she calls out multiple
(27:49):
kind of gender stereotypes that they're placing on her throughout
the series, Um, which is it's self away are in
a way like, yes, this is a problematic thing, but
I recognize it's a problematic thing. Well, I don't think
it's the boys aren't supposed to be like super fun
(28:11):
about right, it's exposing a dynamic. But I think there's
absolutely the case. And the characters are supposed to be
some my understanding, even a couple of years older, are
you and um? Because I think that right, like they
were born in nineteen and so you know that these
are like Scarry's realistic conversations with young people we're having,
(28:36):
right Like, why should I do that? Because in the goal, um,
and so I think that they are discovering their voices.
And I also think that, you know, I think that's
the thinking about her mine as a black character. It's
also really helpful because it would in some ways triple
(28:59):
justify all the tacks on her of being novel born
in a visiting world of being a woman in a
man's world and then being a black witch in England.
I think, of course she's going to be in this
accomplished young woman very I mean, she's growing it, but
she of course that wasn't harder than anybody else if
(29:21):
she has all of that to carry on her. Um
So yeah, and I think the boys are good for her.
But I also think that we all sometimes have done
run type of boys in our lives. And I don't
think she's a problematic character. I think she's a complicated character.
(29:41):
I agree. Um, I definitely didn't read and I haven't
read them again since I mean a couple of years,
but I read them like twenty times when I was
a kid, and I never was reading it like she
was just as strong as character, like that's that's what
I took from it. And I always thought she was
working hard because she was a muggle morn and she
(30:02):
did have something she felt like she had something prove.
But also she just really was into it right exactly,
which the real personalities apparently. But yeah, she was a
nerd type of personality who absolutely wanted to make sure
she was on point at all times. Yeah, which most
(30:22):
successful women or those who identifies fimls have to be
to prove that they can do something, that they have
to be a hundred sure that they can prove themselves
before they speak out loud, which is absolutely reflected with
her mind's character. And I was so interesting that the
fist comparisoned me with him the book Ernie mcnellan, who's
(30:44):
also like studier and um in bad being right about
ever last thing, and he does not come off while
as a character um he becomes prefactive apple path. He
you know, he's the only one who made sit into
potions in a couple of tis in the sixth year.
And so as far as the direct comparison to her money,
(31:06):
we see a boy who is, as you know, obsessed
with success, and I think that he's written, um, just
as like snivelly as her money is. So I don't
think that there's like a sex gendered access to that.
I think there's sexism in the book, but I don't
(31:28):
think that books right. I feel like in the book
that had the most problematic issues with the girlfriends, the
Ron's girlfriend and then um Harry's girlfriend what's her name? Yeah,
in which they are seeing a shrill and overly jealous,
which like they kind of compete with Hermione almost as
a pitted woman gets a girl gets a girl, which
(31:51):
was always bothered me the most was like, why do
they have to all hate each other? I think that's
exactly right, especially lading to her, who is written for
a laugh and um, really Want is terrible to her,
Want is using her to make her money is Alas
because he's Stiffy feels not stilly, he's feels ashamed about
(32:13):
the fact that he hasn't kissed anybody in her money,
has kissed pictor m and he just uses her and
then the book mocks her and it's really terrible and
then she dies. I mean, it's just it's really Lavender
gets the real short end of this day. Luckily, Sam
fiction I think has resurrected Lavender to a large extent,
(32:34):
but the books don't do her any favors. Have you
any included her in your fan fiction Lavender at any point,
so I've written, Harry Putter fan fiction. I don't know
why some manth is bringing this up right now, because
she brought up and you do a really great job
with fan faction, I understand. So I actually really don't
like romance. The lavender never featured, but maybe I should
(32:56):
give her a redemptive arc um Are her money do
some kind of adventure together? Maybe my favorite romantic us
written four Lavenders that Hurt and Parvety run a way together,
because I realized that not just Ben love, but I
love a love story. We have some more of our
(33:19):
discussion around Harry Potter, but first we have one quick
break forward from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. UM.
(33:39):
I did want to go back to her money because
when it comes to reading about feminism and Harry Potter,
it always comes up. As few do remember it didn't
get enough playtime on the movies. It wasn't in the
movies at all at all, and that it was very
sad about that. It was a very important part of
(33:59):
her It really was. Yeah, So for listeners who don't know,
this is the Society for Promotion of Elvish Welfare. She
starts fire in the fourth one except for Dobby one right,
which I do find really interesting because because you can say,
that's sort of like intersectional feminism at play. Um exactly right, right.
(34:26):
So I didn't know this, but it was based on
one of the first organizations for women in Britain calls
View Society for promoting the employment of women. I do
not know that this second bring in some new facts.
I try. I try. Another thing she does is she
(34:46):
starts Dumbledore's Army because something else that comes up a
lot is building community two tackle issues, and she is
the one often frequently spearheading these things and getting things done.
So I I feel like she doesn't in a lot
of ways encompass sort of where we are right now
with feminism, which is interesting. That's interesting. Yeah, And I
(35:09):
think you know, all we can act to people that
they learned um and she learned from you right, Like
it goes horribly. I mean, she does such a better
job as that as the founder of Jumbledore's Army of
like really scaffolding it um so that everybody feels like
(35:30):
a part of it, of getting you know, buy in
early on, of having here you'd be the teacher. Um.
She was a much better job organizing rather than preaching UM.
And I feel like as far as like teenage activism goes,
it's pretty great. She was like at the time she
(35:50):
was fifteen or sixteen, she's nailed at fifteen. Yeah, I
gret A Thurnberg. Yes, oh yeah, doesn't been really happy.
I wasn't expecting that she just clutched her heart. I did.
I I had girls, they would have been clutched. Sorry.
Her mane one of the Year and level in the
(36:13):
Wizarding World. Um So, since in the interest of time,
I had all these characters written out, but because we're
kind of on a time crunch, are there are there moments?
Are characters that, as far as feminism goes, are your
favorite or are things that you really like to to
(36:33):
dig into your discuss Yeah, I think that, um, Jenny
has become a really interesting character to be thinking about
with the newtube movement happening. I you know, the first
three times I read the book, but I did not
read Jinny as like an assault victim, which obviously she
(36:57):
is the palm Liddle's diary and um and I just
think the most one of the most beautiful moments in
the whole series is when he when Jimmy concerned Perry
and says, I can't believe you can't come talk to me.
It's not like I have been possessed by Voldemort or anything,
(37:18):
and here goes, oh my god, I'm sorry I forgot,
and she says lucky you, and that lucky you just
holds the whole netwo movement to me of you know,
lucky society that they've gotten to turn away from this
lucky lucky Harvey Wine scene with the fact that yesterday
(37:38):
we found out he's not going to get any deal
time when he's not about to pay a dime of
the day and money. Um, and I think Jimmy is
just holding up a movement with that lucky you and um,
and Molly's love for James. You know, she's screens Jimmy
(37:59):
and Buck to know it's all caps at an exclamation
point and then obviously there's not my daughter, you bitch
moment um. And so I thinking Molly and Jenny have
a real bond that is, to a large extent obviously
the mother and daughter, but I also think to the
large extent is based in trauma and Jenny wanting to
(38:20):
be out the world in Molly's really wanting to protect
her um. And it's just it's a really beautifully rot
description and um, the situation that I think is all
be familiar. Yeah, um, that's that's a good moment. And
I also had forgotten that in the sixth one Ron
(38:43):
kind of sledge shameser and you're gonna call me what
what I know? Oh my gosh, it's like say it,
do it. I dare you to do it, because well,
you know, she could win, that's right. Um. And I
(39:05):
did want to touch on because I feel like a
lot of people forget about Lily Pottery and she, I mean,
her act of sacrifice and love in the beginning is
kind of the most powerful thing. That's kind of her
whole character overall, with Snap and all that. She is
just a compassionate individual who goes for the underdog. Yeah.
(39:27):
And you only have kind of the sanitized version of
what Harry knows because he's a narrator. But she did,
she does this thing, and that throughout the books is
the strong, powerful, kind of defining thing. Um. And I
have read a lot of fan fiction where they're like,
you know, really, she's the one that's powerful, the power,
(39:48):
you know, not and people don't credit her right where
they should, right. Yeah, And we do a piece some
like memories of Snap, Um, she was willing to stand
up to him. We see that memory of Lily and Petunia,
Um fighting it, you know, pat for mine in three
(40:10):
quarters and really and trying to get Petunia on board.
Um with the fact that she's going to hazards. Right.
We see a lot of Lily and I think she
was pretty exceptional. And even if she wasn't, I think
the fact that she does. You know, I think the
James because a short end of the stick, because James
made the same sacrifice for both Harry and Lily's um.
(40:34):
But I love that this one active sacrifice to give
him so much meaning because I think it came. We
think once ACTI sacrifice can changed the courts of someone's life. Um.
And it's really beautiful. Yeah. Oh, I just remember reading
the seventh book as sobbing, sobbing. There's so many memories
(40:56):
in our face. I know we do have a little
bit more for listeners, but first we have one more
group break for work from our sponsor. We're back, so
(41:19):
I didn't want to come back to because you talked
about Jane Eyre being your favorite book, and I don't
hear I hear a few people talk about that, but
I don't hear many people saying that as their favorite.
I love Jane Eyre because I love le Bronte Sisters.
Because I also liked Weathering Heights. I know that's way
out there as well. Um, but what was it about
Jane Eyre that made you connect so heartily in us,
(41:43):
like almost a spiritual level with that book and the character?
You know, it's such a good question. It's just such
a good It's just such a good book. So that Um,
obviously first time fourteen and I love a love story.
So I'm pretty sure that I loved the love story.
(42:06):
And then it just meets be where you are, you know,
and I reread it, um as I was thinking about
going in divinity school. In Spinjon just became like the
most interesting character to me, how he tried to manipulate
her with religion, and then I, you know, I'd really
just fallen in love with so fad Um. She is
(42:31):
she brings down the whole house with her when she goes,
and I just love her for it. I love her
for her cardinality and that she isn't just gonna die.
She's done in this story, so she does, um, And
(42:51):
so I I just think that it is it is
like so complicated and layers and and I guess the
other thing I love about it is just how weird
it is it's like some weird mystical fairies and sprites
and true you know, lightning, hidden trees symbolically, and it's
(43:13):
I mean, it's just a delightful hot mess. Is honestly
great because it's like that and even weird are even
more so. Yeah, I think I just you know, doing
I read Weather in high school pertimen christeen Misiskina and
I didn't understand the words. And so now we're doing
(43:33):
a um Wathering Heights pilgrimage this Jean Severn in the
middle of setting up. Um, it's really interesting having been
to how Worth now where the Bronte personages, and that
town is really an Emily Bronte town. You go there
and talk about Charlotte and they're like, no, thank you,
we wan Yeah it was there for being air last
(43:58):
year and they were like, you're here for the long book. Um,
we're going back to this year with Wathering Types. I'll say,
you'll get the correct book and a little more welcoming. Huh.
Maybe Bill has moved on to Anne, but I think, um, yeah,
(44:18):
I'm really waited to spend some time with Weather and
Type because of the next eight months of really diving
into it again. But you know, Jane is just simpler
and it's more straightforward. It's an eatier way in and
wuthering types. Jane. I remember being one of the first
books where they had the not so attractive girl being
(44:39):
the lead and the way they describe her. Yeah, absolutely,
she you know, you see yourself. She's a you're invited
to yourself into Jane. All right, I like this little
bonus Jane Eyre. What was caught up in those times?
Jane Austen Janey, I mean Jane Austen and the Bronte
(45:00):
Sisters two of my favorites. I'm old school that way,
really really old school. Apparently you should come on one
of our pilgrimages some time. Oh, we'll be there, Plan
number fifty something trips, Like anytime people invite us, I
hope they're serious. Oh no, I'm totally serious. You should
(45:21):
talk about it. Yes, please, Well have a Bronte and
oh my gosh. Alright, alright, yeah, well we'll be in
we have to go that way, yes, yes, let's go.
Um and would you like to tell the listeners where
(45:41):
they can find you? Yep, Um, you can find us
wherever you're listening to this podcast right now. You can
find Harry Potter and the staked test or if you
are more and more a normal person, you can find
hot and buttered. And that brings us to the end
of this interview. Yes, it was so fun. We could
(46:02):
have kept going forever. And as you heard, we were
talking about doing that tour with I'm Janair and for
all the bronze stuff and um Jane Austin stuff. But
you know, we should have talked about going on the
tour for Harry Potter stuff. Can we do that? Is
that thing? Can we do that? Oh? Yeah, okay, Oh
my gosh. You can go visit the studio in London
and making of Harry Potter and it's so I've been
(46:23):
to the theme parks. That thing in London is my
favorite thing. I went to the train station train stuff.
I went there when I would visit my friend in London.
She took me there. She's like, here it is and
I was like, oh, people waiting inline, I'm not doing that.
Well talk about the power of Harry Potter. That's not
even they built that because you can't actually get to
the ruin. But so many tours were jumping over the
trains and well, not jumping over trains, but they were
(46:45):
they were taking away to it, right, so they built
a fake one makes it's just come over here, stay
away from they don't go near the train tracks. Okay.
UM really quickly didn't want to touch on some characters
because I know we didn't. There's so many that we
could have talked about. One a fan favorite is Luna
(47:06):
Um And one of my favorite things about Luna is
the relationship between her and Harry because it's platonic and
I love when she says he invites her to the
slug club, the slug ball, right, and she says, oh, people,
well think for our friends, and Harry says so earnestly,
you are my friend, right, And it's just nice. I
(47:27):
feel like we don't get that kind of relationship. Even
though we didn't have a lot of screen time. We
don't see that a lot. He's never judging her for
and she's just going to be herself and that's fine. Well.
I love the Luna and what's his name? The other one,
the one that could have been Harry Neville Neville. I
love that Luna and Neville are such good friends in
(47:47):
the movie. They do a little more in the movie
than they in the book, will you try to kind
of protect each other? Almost it was super sweet, super cute. Yeah,
the oddball is oddballs together. Yes, speaking of oddball Tonks,
she's a pretty big I love that she's somehow both
really clumsy but really good at her job because I
(48:08):
feel I can connect. And I think if they don't
play enough about her being a part of that the
Beltricks and um, all of their family, I think that's
important that they kind of kind of escape over. Yeah
in the movie for sure, for sure, that kind of
barely mentioned it. And then even in the book that
kind of bypass it to being her in love with
(48:30):
Lupin Yes, yeah, um. And then there's Professor McGonagall of course,
super tough. I love I love her stuff in the
last book when she's defending Harry, I love it like
it doesn't and it doesn't show it in the movie.
But I love that scene where she's going up against
the two twins. Yeah, that is a great scene. I
(48:51):
didn't want to touch on floor day Lacre too, because
she's really interesting from where she starts, as you happy,
the and that is all about looks, although people forget
they're also extremely dangerous. Well, the whole Uh, school, it's
just all female. Yeah, and I feel like that's not
mentioned enough. And the strength between them themselves. It's kind
(49:15):
of like downplayed, I feel like, because it's based on
looks and how deceptive they can be in or you know, tricksie.
What does Mr Weasley say? He says, he says something
like sea boys, this is why you don't go for
looks alone. Uh. And she is the unfortunately, the worst competitor,
I would say in the Gobblet of Fire. But he's
(49:37):
the most help as seems. Yes, um, but she did
go on to become a pretty central and powerful character.
And let's not to say she wasn't powerful then, it's
just the way she was portrayed, and especially in comparison
with all the other champions, she did come out looking
like the weakest one. And then villains we have to
talk about umbradge. Oh, talk about problematic white woman. She
(50:04):
that's the angriest I ever got. I had to close
order the Phoenix the fifth one after she banned him
from quidditch. I don't even care about quidditch. I was
just so mad at the injustice of it. Oh, she's infuriating,
But I do think having a female villallin like that.
It just added so much. I mean clearly, I think
(50:25):
a lot of people would say she was the least like,
the most hated character, and that's that's a testament to
oh gosh, the writing, but also the actress. She was
exactly that character. She was everything and embodied that character
to the full. Yeah, she's famous English actress, Amelda Staunton Stanton.
(50:51):
And just having that wide cast of here all these heroes,
strong female heroes, but also here are some villains, Belatrick's
being one. She is extremely powerful. I think people forget
at one point she's dueling Luna, Jenny and her mindy.
I think she's doing three people at once. She was powerful,
and she's often put in contrast of Lily represents love
(51:17):
and pure love and she represents just ambition and hate,
like they're the opposite side. She does, she does um
and she was. She was really frightening character I found. Yeah.
And then there's Petunia and Narcissa, who I do find
(51:39):
interesting because even if you probably classify them as villains,
that the mother part of their characters and them going
to protect out of their way to protect their children,
which is very much of a theme through all of it.
Whether it's Molly Wheeley or Lily, all of them is
very protective, very on point. Whether it's bad or good,
(52:03):
they're doing something for in the name of their children. Yeah,
and that's one thing I know. Some of the criticism
I read of characters like that and Molly Weasley is
you're putting them in these gender stereotypes. The mom and
then in response j K Rolling, especially to to Molly Weasley,
(52:23):
she says, Um, the moment when Molly kills Belichick. She
said she wanted Molly to have her moment to show
that because a woman had dedicated herself to her family
does not mean that she doesn't have a lot of
other talents. Yes, and um, one thing I wanted to
close out with because I do generally try to separate
(52:43):
actors from their characters. Um. But Emma Watson is such
an interesting case because I remember being ten years old
feeling extremely jealous that she had been cast. And she
said in an interview, I I literal I remember this probect.
I didn't have to look it up, she said. When
(53:03):
asked about her money, she said, I hate her. I
hate her. I hate her because she was into fashion
and she thought her mind, he just wasn't wasn't cool.
But then she went out as she grew up. As
Emma Watson grew up, she grew to love her money
and loved all those things about her that she was
a warrior and she was smart. And I just I
feel like a lot of us go through that where
(53:25):
we hate the adolescence. We were awkward children and we
hate everything about ourselves. Yes, um, and then now she's
a feminist activist and she's the voice of U n's
he for she. She was appointed as the UN Women
Goodwill Ambassador in July. She did she got good recommendations
(53:47):
on their SOI but a Google search of is Emma
Watson too pretty to play her money? Turns up almost
half a million results. You would never ever see that
with any of the male actors. Is Danny Radcliff, who
hands to play Harry Potter. That would not happen. No,
But I think they did question his height. They did
as a separate episode. They also questioned his eyebrows. I
(54:08):
said they were too feminine. Look, we're we're unpacking a
thing at right at the very end that we should
come back to. Yeah, so clearly we we blew through those.
I could talk about this forever, but we'll have to
end it here today. Definitely, go check out Vanessa's podcasts.
Go go find her on the social media's Women Who Knows,
(54:31):
Harry Potter and Like a Text and Hutton Bothered, which
I just love that. Yes, And if you would like
to reach us you can. Our email is Stuff Media
mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find
us on Instagram as stuff and I'll Never Told You,
or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
to our super producer Andrew Howard Angel, thanks to our
(54:54):
guest Vanessa and Hannah for helping to set it up,
and thanks to you for listening up. Rem Never Told
You's a protection of I Heart Radio's house networks for
more podcast from my Heart Radio of his Diheartradio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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