February 5, 2025 • 76 mins
Manchester, England is a city with an amazing history and -- according to some -- a terrible secret. For years a rumor has been spreading, first through local circles, and now across the globe. Could all the tragic deaths and disappearances near canals and waterways really be accidents, as law enforcement maintains today? Or could there be something more sinister at work... an active serial killer, operating with dark impunity? Join Ben and Matt as they delve into the harrowing theory of the Manchester Pusher.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Our colleague Nol is on an adventure, but will be
returning shortly.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
argue you are here. That makes this the stuff they
don't want you to know. Matt, full disclosure. This is
a topic we had we kind of discussed offline when
(00:52):
we were planning different episodes, and this is one that
I almost stepped away from and then you said no
and we got to keep it. What the heck is
going on here?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, this is a story that reminds me heavily of
one of my favorite movies of all time, and we'll
talk about that when we get to it. For me personally,
that is why I insisted then we cover.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
This talk and this exploration. I can't wait to learn
about the film. I'm going to spend the entire time
trying to guess which one it is, but I can't
wait to go there with you. Tonight's exploration takes us
across the pond, across the Atlantic to Manchester, England. It
is a place that I believe, Dylan, Matt and myself
(01:40):
have never personally visited. We are exploring a grizzly tragic
story decades in the making. This episode will contain descriptions
of death, will contain allegations of some pretty disturbing, unclean things. Matt.
If we go to Manchester and we talk to people
(02:01):
who believe in a certain theory, they will tell us
that there is an active serial killer operating with impunity
throughout the Greater Manchester area, targeting young men. But then,
you know, we could as easily go across the street
to some other place where we would find critics who
(02:22):
say the entire thing is made up. And a lot
of those critics candidly are going to be law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, and they would call it rubbish at least that's
the way they talk about it in the.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
News, absolutely, and have maintained that stance for decades. One
aspect of the story that rings inarguably true is simply
this people have died and are dying in these waterways
in these canals. This is the story of the Manchester Pusher.
(03:02):
Here are the facts all right again? You know, we
have not personally visited Manchester, and I think there's something
we need to we need to clear the air on
before we continue. Greater Manchester is kind of like fairly
(03:22):
far north sort of northwest of London in the United Kingdom.
And we can think of it the way you think
of a county here in the US, you know, like
Fulton County. What's another county, Gwet, Gwinnett. There we go.
That's one of the good ones for sy Yes, is
(03:44):
it for Syth the land of retired delta pilots and
golf cart drivers and accountants and accountants they get in there.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
I don't know. That was my dad?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yes, Yes, all true. And tip of the cap to
the legendary mister Frederick. What you may find confusing if
you're not familiar with the area, and something that's going
to be important to this story later. The Greater Manchester
thing we're talking about again, it's like a county. The
largest city in that what they call a ceremonial county
(04:22):
is also called Manchester. Sort of how you have New
York and then you have New York City, and depending
on how far away you get from the city, those
are two very different places.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Oh so true, And Manchester does look quite sprawling when
you view it from above in one of these maps
that we have handy nowadays. It is pretty lovely. If
you want to find it, just head on over to Liverpool.
You've heard of that before though, he ows, and then
just head on east inwards.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Basically, yeah, the this area is like so much of
the United Kingdom overall, it's heavily developed. There's a lot
of dense urbanization. The population overall is about two point
nine million. This wasn't always the case. Pre Industrial Revolution
and before the days of widespread coal mining, cotton in
(05:15):
the textile industry, Manchester was a pretty rural place. It
boomed like so many other places did during the Industrial Revolution,
and then it went bust as people moved away from coal,
as various local industries died. Now, if you go you
will see that Manchester is home to all sorts of
(05:37):
new industries, very big in the digital economy. And of
course we would be remiss to not shout out world
famous football or soccer teams like Manchester United.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Boom boom, and then let's definitely talk about Well, actually
I've noticed it, and maybe I'm full wrong here. This
is just an observation on my part. I've noticed multiple cities,
especially in Europe, that have large urban areas like this,
(06:12):
that have just so many canals that go through them
like like vanes, like a nervous system spreads throughout a city.
And you know, we've talked before on this show about
how important rivers were for especially in the United States,
but everywhere we knew it because of the United States
for transportation, how important the water was for getting stuff
(06:35):
long distances right. And you you know, I'm not sure
if it's the same with the canals here, but you
definitely see where the water. The city was built up
around the waterways, and then other waterways were interconnected to
each other to continue the flow.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Absolutely, and that's an important point for any development nerds.
Fellow development nerds in the crowd may be interested to
learn that our fair metropolis of Atlanta, Georgia is a
bit of an anomaly. Big cities historically are built along
navigable water, be that a coast, be that a river way,
(07:15):
and Atlanta has some creeks, right We're in a state
with no natural bodies of water on its own. All
the lakes here are artificial. And then we've got the Chattahoochee,
which is navigable to a certain point depending on what
you want to.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
Do by inflatable tube by inflatable tubes, preferably with some
Garth Brooks play in or who's that guy who did
way down yonder on the chattahooch Wait, Alan Jackson.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Thank you, Dylan. Dylan was quick on the trigger for
that one. You had that locked and loaded.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I can totally see Dylan just floating the hooch, got
Maddie light in one hand.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
So it's weird because and this has nothing to do
with our conversation now, it's weird because Atlanta is anomalous
in that sense of historical community and city development. We
have long argued and I think we're all just very
fascinating with the fact that the railway replaced the role
(08:22):
of the river for Atlanta, and then later the airways
replaced the role of you know, the rivers the railways.
In fact, we are home to the busiest airport in
the world, kaveat caveat Asterisk. But you make this excellent
(08:43):
point here, Matt. There is a lifeblood that goes through
a lot of these cities. And Manchester is not London,
but it is a serious city. It's got a ton
of interesting stuff to do, and it's got this network
of canals. Not as robust a network as some other
(09:03):
nearby towns like Birmingham, but canals in general, they always
seem so cool to land lubber at lantons like us.
It's weird. We get excited when we see bodies of water, like,
oh my gosh, what happened there?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah, And just the physicality of some of these because
there are rivers that run through and then the canals
are much smaller right in scale at least if you
think about in the width of actual water as it's
rolling through, you know, buildings on one side with a
sidewalk of some sort and then the same on the
other side. But one of the important things to note
(09:39):
here is specifically in a lot of these places, these canals,
where the water is fairly deep, yes, and where the
top of the water reaches there's a pretty good amount
at least heightwise, of like concrete or stone work that
goes up to where somebody could get into that water
(10:01):
or get out of that water, specifically for flooding purposes. Right,
if there's an influx of a bunch of water, you
don't want all that water coming over into the streets.
You got to make sure there's enough space between the
top of that water and the edge of where it
could potentially spill over.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, and there are importantly often not barriers. You will
see warning signs. You will see something posted that says
watch out, you know, like don't jump in, because so
many of these canal ways are very deep. You could
(10:39):
jump in and then have a very difficult time getting out. Also,
just to be clear, this is not to cast dispersion
on the good people of Manchester. The canals are dirty.
Don't drink the water, you know what I mean, Like
just not even on a dare.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
No, I mean it's best runoff, right, Yeah, water that's
entering there, you know, through some of the river weys.
But then it's also all the spill off water from
all of that industrial or just you know, regular urban area.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
What we're saying is nobody is fishing in these or
no one should be, at least in the inner city
area of Manchester. They are picturesque, though a lot of
the views there are beautiful, and it's important to remember
that they can still be dangerous. We want to draw
(11:31):
your attention, folks, to an excellent piece by the Manchester
Evening News back in twenty sixteen, so almost ten years
ago now. They created an interactive map that showed the
locations of sixty one separate deaths, or we should say
discovery of bodies between two thousand and eight and twenty fourteen.
(11:54):
The bodies were all male. They were all found in
or next to canals and waterways, and it's worth a
look at this map. You can find it again just
search Manchester Evening News pusher map and you will find it.
When you scroll through, you can see the rubric that
(12:16):
they've instituted. It will show you where an individual went missing,
where their body was found, and then the coroner's ultimate verdict. However,
and this is incredibly upsetting for a lot of the
victims family and friends, the corner's verdict in multiple cases
(12:36):
is still open, meaning they have not officially determined the
cause of death. And Matt, you and I have worked
in the true crime world for quite a while now,
and so we know that drowning in particular can be
a bag of badgers forensically.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Oh yeah, And if you take a look at this
map just I've kind of lost in it for a
second here, been looking at specifically, I think this would
be the Rockdale Canal r O C H D A
L E Canal where there are multiple spots along that
specific canal where bodies have been discovered or people have
been found deceeased, and that runs right through the major
(13:20):
part just north of the University district. If you're looking
at a map.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
There, Yeah, yeah, exactly. Piccadilly, Manchester. Piccadilly has at least
you know, the five documented cases, and in some cases
further you will see name unknown an unidentified body is found,
which is frankly bizarre in the United Kingdom, especially in
(13:47):
recent times, because it is one of the most heavily
surveiled civilizations on the planet. There's CCTV and cell phone
tracking everywhere. It's kind of hard to be a stranger
in this part of the world. So you know, you're
if you are a corner and you are attempting to
determine a cause of death, when when you get to
(14:10):
the case of drowning, you have to also ask yourself
what happened before. Was there a slip and fall, maybe
a head injury that resulted in ultimate drowning. Was there
any evidence like ligature marks or something like that showing
that someone had died before they were put in the water.
That's the real, real tough part.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Well, and often toxicology comes into this stuff, especially because
of the nature of those canals, because there are bars
and pubs and places that you can go to all
along those canals where somebody may have a drink or
ten and accidentally fall right, which goes into the stuff
you're talking about and anything happened to the head, because
(14:53):
that could also be a fall, or it could be
blunt force trauma exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Yeah, well said, And it's a great point about intoxicating substances.
We're talking about alcohol because there are you know, there's
a robust series of nightclub districts and bars and restaurants,
but we're also talking about party drugs, you know, which
could which could have some of the same physical effects.
(15:21):
This is, you know, this uncomfortable stuff to think through.
But the investigations themselves, even as we record this evening
in twenty twenty five, they are incredibly important for family
members and friends who are searching for closure after the
death of a loved one. You know, just there is
a kind of peace in understanding what actually happened. And yeah,
(15:46):
we said, Manchester's canals have plenty of signage, plenty of
posted warnings, but it is so easy to dismiss or
ignore a warning sign, especially if you live in the area.
You start to get your blinders on. Right, I know
this street. I don't need to figure out the speed
limit or you know, right, turn on red only or whatever.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Once you get into that auto functioning mode, you just
have to be really careful because your faculties aren't working
the same.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And look, there's something weird with the pattern here. Despite
being about the same size as Birmingham, or comparable to
Birmingham in the UK, and despite the fact that Birmingham
has a larger canal network, more people seem to be
dying in Manchester's canals, and people to this day are
(16:43):
still asking why you know we're talking about this Earlier
the police have always maintained that these are isolated instances.
If you ask the Greater Manchester Police or GMP now
they will still tell you there is no real pattern
to these deaths. The vast majority can be explained as simple,
(17:07):
no tragic accidents. And I think you painted the picture
really well there. The weather's not always great. Things get slippery, muddy,
you can slip and fall, and you can hit your head.
And the bad weather can make it tough to get
out of a canal once you're in, especially if we're
talking about the ones with the very high distance between
(17:30):
the surface and the water.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, but it does make you think, well, if these
are all just isolated incidents and there are this many
drownings in that many years, then we need to really
really do some work on the rail the railings that
are installed and the fences.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah, maybe put up some barriers.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Yeah maybe, because if you.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Again, we are land lubber Atlanta. And I don't know
about you, man, but I've seen I've seen things where
you know, I'm looking at these pictures of Manchester and
the canals and I'm thinking that's a disaster waiting to happen,
you know what I mean. There's a restaurant with a
patio right there, and then not more than a few
(18:18):
meters away, there's a drop off.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Well, well and here. I think about where I used
to live down near Shambly, Georgia, and there's a place
called the Frosty Caboose. And this is a place where
you can go and get ice cream.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
Right, okay, a bunch of kids.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
One of my favorite things to do with Writer when
he was a little kid was go get ice cream
at the Frosty Caboose. But you can go enjoy your
ice cream in a special little area they've got with
picnic tables. And guess what, there is no barrier from
where you are having ice cream. And then the railroad
tracks which are right there.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Wow, And if you think.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
About the danger that that poses that I didn't think
about because I'm just enjoying my Frosty caboos delight stuff.
But that sounds naughty, but that's not what it is.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
It's ice cream.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
But just how dangerous it is to have that right
there with no real warnings or no protection other than
I think some railroad ties that people put up, you know,
as like hey, don't go over across these Hey just.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Think this went through. Yeah, right. And I love that
we're pointing this out because that is something that happens
so often, a thing that is dangerous, seems safe ninety
nine times out of one hundred, and then it's the
one hundredth time where someone says something should be done.
And it should come as no surprise that a lot
(19:41):
of people in Manchester do not buy the official police explanation,
which puts you know, they're saying, we'll get to the
variety of factors, but the law enforcement stance has always
been the majority of these are accidents, and usually we
don't want to sound, you know, as though we're blaming
(20:03):
the victims or anything. But usually they'll say toxicology reports
indicate the person whose body was discovered had ingested a
lot of alcohol or ingested some kind of you know,
party drug, the implication being they were stumbling home, maybe
after a big celebration with their friends, they slipped, and
(20:26):
it was late at night, because a lot of this
appears to happen in the evening. It was late at night,
so not many other people were out on the streets,
and these folks were physically unable to extricate themselves from
the canal and then drowned. But people don't buy it,
you know, they say, sure, accidents can explain some of
(20:48):
these deaths, but not all and depending upon whom you ask,
you will hear folks swear to you that's somewhere out
there in Manchester, a serial killer is hunting, as we were.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, and we'll talk about why they think that, because
there seems to be some precedent, maybe pretty close by.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Here's where it gets crazy, all right. It's called the
Manchester pusher theory, or just the pusher, as they say
to Manchester. This theory argues that at least since at
least two thousand and seven, if not earlier, there has
been an active serial murderer, or perhaps on the more
extreme end of the theory, a group of murderers operating
(21:39):
in Manchester in Greater Manchester, murdering victims by pushing them
into the canals, possibly with additional injuries that prevent them
from getting back out.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
That to me is a big deal, right, because it
all depends on how intoxicated a person potentially or a victim,
if there is a killer there, right, Because if if
you push me into a canal and I am a
little intoxicated, I'm getting out of that canal. But if
I'm too drunk or I've got other things in my body,
(22:15):
then maybe I can't or if you give me a
you know, wrap across the noggin, maybe I'm not going
to get out right.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
If someone knocks you unconscious and then throws you in
a canal, are you going to wake up? It's a
tough question to answer. And this also brings to mind
something that longtime fellow conspiracy realist have doubtlessly already clocked. Matt,
You and I spent a lot of time investigating something
(22:45):
called the smiley face murders. What are those?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
These are murders of mostly young men, where there is
somebody comes up missing for at least a few days,
if not, if not just hours, and then their body
is discovered somewhere near a body of water or in
a body of water, and generally, like the Corners report,
the report that comes back to the public and to
(23:11):
the family is that it was an accidental drowning of
some sort or usually related to the body of water.
That's how the death is categorized officially.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Often yeah, and the reason it's called smiley face murders
is because the investigators, some of whom are retired law
enforcement who believe that there is foul play at work.
They will tell you that in many of the smiley
face cases, there is some cryptic sign nearby graffiti. Think
(23:42):
of it a drawing of a smiley face or what
appears to be a smiley face. Please listen to our
episode that we did, gosh five years ago now, So
that case, like the Manchester Pusher, that theory remains dismissed
by law enforcement. They say, you know, it's a good story.
(24:05):
There's no evidence, or perhaps people are seeing patterns where
none exist, which is a human thing to do.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
One of the crevious things about that is that it
was occurring in several different cities across the US. It
wasn't just an isolated thing, right.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
It would for the smiley faced murders to be true,
it would mean that the killer was traversing the US,
traveling interstate, you know, from state to state boarders I mean,
and then also possibly acting in concert with other people.
And without getting too far into the rabbit hole. One
(24:45):
of the big theories that I think we I think
we discussed I can't remember which rabbit hole this one was,
is the idea that it was some person working for
an HVAC outfit called train tr and E.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, I remember something about that. The victims in the
Smiley Face murderers. Just want to reiterate, we're often young men,
and they often appeared to be targeted after a night
at a.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Bar, right right, and they were often disappearing near you know,
restaurants and bars and nightclubs. Another similar comparison would be
our previous series on the Interstate Corridor here in the US,
where the FBI genuinely they're not dismissing this when they
(25:34):
genuinely suspect there are multiple murderers affiliated with the long
haul trucking industry who are targeting people along this corridor,
especially in Texas.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, and there's precedent for that too. Thinking about the
happy Face killer there ah ooh, very close to the
Smiley Face.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Very much so. So we see already this is important context.
But because we see this pusher theory doesn't come from
out of the blue, it doesn't come from whole new cloth.
There are recedents, not just in the realm of theory,
but there are documented cases where things like this can occur.
(26:18):
The pusher, the Manchester Pushers, should one exist, does not
have a call sign nor a signature, as is alleged
with the Smiley Faced murders, but drowning bodies of water
universally male victims. All those signs are there, and these
canals are dangerous. Look at the pictures. Again, we're not
(26:42):
the coolest people, but we're kind of savvy and we
can identify danger from afar. We can read the room.
These canals. Some of them have ladders at various points
to help you climb in and out of the water,
especially where there's a very big distance between the water
and the surface. But those ladders aren't everywhere. There are barriers.
(27:04):
There are a few barriers, but those barriers aren't everywhere.
Even if you are in good shape, you know, you're
not panicking, you're not injured, and somehow you end up
in the canal. There are areas of these waterways where
it would be impossible for you to scale back to land.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, you'd have to follow the canal for quite a
while until you found essentially an escape, you know. Gosh,
and thinking about ending up in one of those canals
and being pursued by somebody above that can just walk
with you as you're trying to escape.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Ooh cinematic.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, well it's cinematic, and that's terrifying and You could
imagine how that would up your adrenaline, which would only
further cause you to exert yourself in the water.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
There are a lot of bad.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Scenarios make you more likely to ingest water as well
as you struggle to stay afloat. We also know that
the deaths in Manchester seem to occur in three canals
in particular one we mentioned earlier Roachdale, but then also
Ashton and Bridgewater Canals. A lot of these folks are
(28:14):
inarguably accidents, some may be suicides. They may be possibly
a situation where a person took their own life. But
the frequency of those deaths in Manchester, again compared to
other similar cities, the pattern is odd. And this is
where we want to tip our cap to the BBC.
(28:37):
They chase down the origin of this story or the
origin of this idea when it entered the zeitgeist, when
it became part of popular culture. This is where we
find Professor Craig Jackson, an academic over at Birmingham City University,
and he was speaking to The Day Least Star Sunday
(29:01):
in twenty fifteen and he said he found it quote
extremely unlikely that such an alarming number of bodies found
in the canals could be the result of accidents or suicides.
He wasn't making any wackado claim. He was again pointing
to the quantifiable evidence and saying this is anomalous. He said,
(29:24):
maybe maybe there is an active assailant responsible for some
of these murders. But he never said a single person
was responsible for every death. He just said, you know,
in some cases you also have to look into the
possibility of homicide, which is absolutely true.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, oh yeah, he's given so many great quotes over
the years that what was that first place that you mentioned,
the Manchester Evening News. Yeah, yeah, he's given all kinds
of quotes that they've picked up in a bunch of
other places. But the concept that this professor is saying is, let's,
as you said, Ben, let's look at the potential that
(30:03):
at least a few of these are homicides. Let's use
some of the newer criminal behavioral examination techniques that exist
out there. Look at geographical profiling, which is a very
popular thing in the true crime world. At least if
you look at where deaths have occurred, right if you're
studying a serial killer, and then you can kind of
(30:25):
map out potentially where that killer exists or works or lives,
or you know, there's a location somewhere in there in
that map that this killer or this potential suspect would live,
which is really interesting, and just saying let's at least explore.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It, right, no stone left unturned. You know, it's your
ethical responsibility to the victim, to the deceased, to the survivors,
the family and friends. Jackson goes on to say, you know,
you don't need a canal killer quote unquote, specifically, the
(31:03):
canals are already and this is from him, already popular
dumping sites for bodies. So someone might commit a homicide
somewhere else, or someone may for any number of reasons,
feel they need to dispose of a cadaver and they
drive over to the canal and they drop the corpse
(31:24):
in there.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's reminiscent of the Atlanta child murders and specifically the
deaths right at the end of that case where bodies
were dumped into rivers to hide potential evidence that could
be on those bodies. And you can learn more about
that in the show Atlanta Monster, just to learn about
(31:47):
the case against Wayne Williams, but also just all of
those deaths and how water was used to potentially cleanse
those bodies of evidence.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and others. Commentators over the years looking
at the Manchester cases have speculated that if an active
serial killer is out there, that individual may be what
is sometimes called, and we don't love this term, sometimes
called a gay slayer, meaning that they are purposely targeting
(32:19):
gay men or men that they believe to be gay.
And that's one of the theories that's out there. Well.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, another killer, a known killer that's pointed to in
a lot of these writing that you'll see about this
case is a man named Dennis Nielsen that I didn't
know much about at all, But this was a killer
that it's been portrayed, by the way, by somebody. David
Tennant portrayed this killer, and he was specifically targeting gay men.
(32:55):
You can check out an ITV series called Desdes to
Learn about The Sky Biography has a pretty great write
up on him. But I think it was fifteen people
that he admitted to killing young gay men.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
And we also know, as we explored in our series
on Uncaught serial Killers, killers who are targeting disadvantaged populations
right or marginal populations often have a higher chance of
succeeding over time, because historically law enforcement has had a
(33:31):
lot of issues and barriers giving due diligence to those cases. Absolutely,
and we know that we know that this theory, the
idea of a quote unquote gayslayer, is based on the
known sexual orientation of some victims. But I would say
(33:51):
more importantly, it's based on the fact that several paths
along these canals in Manchester are known to be what
we'll call cruising areas, and a cruising areas where you know,
you go to find someone to hook up with basically,
or just go to meet someone for something intimate or romantic.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Yeah, it's the same with any club scene anywhere in
the world. Right this is the place where single people
will go to hang out and maybe meet somebody that
they can spend some time with because we're all a
little bit lonely.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And the idea here for these things, lest we sound
like we're vilifying them, the idea for these kind of
areas is that someone like everybody, will be consenting to
whatever they get up to. That's the idea, and as
you'll come to find, you don't see this in all
the many documentaries and podcasts that have come out about this.
(34:53):
But later Professor Jackson goes back and attempts to clear
the air, and like so many scholars and academics and
other subject matter experts, he has to go back to
the media and say, hey, you're doing a disservice chasing
this juicy headline. You're taking what I said out of context,
(35:17):
and now people are panicking. But his attempt at clarification
came far too late. The Internet rumor mill, especially Twitter,
grabbed onto this concept and the theory about hashtag the
pusher spread like wildfire, and wild was spreading. People are
still dying.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
So the image that is conjured in my head when
I hear Manchester pusher, I imagine some you know, darkly
cloaked figure that wanders along the canals searching for a
victim and then literally pushes people into the canal. What
the professor was talking about here and what he was
(35:59):
quoted in discussing and wanting to look further at, were
specific cases where somebody was let's say, officially missing for
seven days, ten days, sure, and then they show up
in the canal. Right, that that makes you understand, Okay,
he's thinking this person was taken by someone killed and dumped.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
There was an eighteen year old person at one point
that was found in a canal two weeks after he
went missing from a New Year's Eve party, which again
makes you think, oh wow, two weeks later, missing for
that long. Something's going on here, and it's not just
somebody pushing folks into the canal.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Yeah, exactly, And that is I believe we're talking about
Suvic Paul. Yes, yes, yeah, and his father can be
found in multiple documentaries saying look, there are unanswered questions.
Something about the official investigation feels stonewalled, right, or it
(36:58):
feels like maybe a little too quick to glom onto
a theory that makes them look good, you know, and
maybe they're a bit too hesitant to look at other
possibilities because they may put the investigation overall in a
bad light.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Dude, Oh, all right, do you mind if I bring
up the movie now, because this is what it's making
me think of.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Yeah, yeah, I've been I've been trying to guess that
I don't know what it was. For some reason, the
vanishing was in my head. But it's not that one.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Nope, this is one of our mutual favorite movies.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
I think, and I think it.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Would be one of Knowles as well, maybe even a
favorite movie of our Tennessee Powell.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Hot Fuzz.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
That's what I thought about Hot Fuzz.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yes, okay, now, look, this is a comedy. It's an
action comedy, action packed comedy. But this movie is about
a sleepy little town called Sandford where deaths, multiple deaths
are covered up by the local police because and they're
called accidents. They're made look as though they are accidents,
because well Sandford at the time. I don't want to
(38:02):
give it away too much, but Sanford had its own
reasons for wanting to make the desk look like accidents.
So what the crime rate in the village would be
so low? That's what it makes me think about. Not
that the police want to cover anything that they're doing up,
but they just don't want a bunch of homicides showing
up on the record for their.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Town, right right. The idea of pushing to clear the
cases in a good way. You know. Yeah, that's an
excellent comparison. I'm surprised and nailed it. Now. I've got
to go rewatch Hot Fuzz because that is a banger film.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
What Manchester needs is a Nicholas Angel.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
There we go, there we go. Let's let's lick into
these these deaths. There's a lot of fact, fiction and
confusion surrounding this. Remember how earlier we said Manchester the
city is distinct, it's within but distinct from Greater Manchester.
That's what makes this story pretty confusing for a lot
(39:05):
of people. In that earlier interview, the original one Professor
Jackson had with the Daily Star, the journalist site at
that point, sixty one deaths in canals and waterways documented
from twenty nine to twenty fifteen. They're probably more, unfortunately,
that's how those numbers work. But the stats you were
(39:27):
running into when you're reading about this story, when you
were hearing about this story, when you're checking out Internet chatter,
those stats for the Manchester Pusher are based on Greater Manchester,
not Manchester, the city, Greater Manchester, the county, and Greater
Manchester is hundreds of square miles. This includes towns they
(39:52):
have nothing to do with the Manchester Pusher, but they
do have canals, they do have waterways, and so what
you're hearing often is an aggregate reporting of all these
things happening across a much wider area.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Oh, yeah, it's true, and it's a very valid and
important point. The only counterpoint I have to it in
saying that it might actually be connected is that I
go back to the Atlanta child murders, missing and murdered
there because bodies were dumped in several different counties, like
right on the edge of a county on well, the
(40:28):
thought at least was that was done purposefully so that
there would be a jurisdictional issue, right, you know, I
feel like it's the kind of thing where it needs
to make you think, but it also needs to make
you not throw anything.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Out exactly one hundred percent with you on that one, Matt,
because we know that there is always a larger context
at play. And again, this is a very highly developed
part of the world. So it's super easy to rent
a car, you know, it's super easy to drive somewhere.
It's not as though these are impassable boundaries, you know.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
For sure, especially if you're dealing with somebody who is
dumping bodies rather than murdering people in specific.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Areas exactly, Yeah, crimes of premeditation rather than perhaps crimes
of opportunity, because crimes of opportunity usually meet with inevitable
panic and regret on the part of the assailant. So
if you, you know, think of a robbery gone wrong,
we'll get to that. But that's incredibly plausible and at
(41:35):
every possible juncture in the larger discourse, the GMP, the
Greater Manchester Police, other law enforcement groups, they have argued
this serial killer theory is unsubstantiated, bunk or as you
put it, rubbish or as Joe Biden would put it, malarkey,
(41:55):
so much so that Jackson got rightly irritated by this.
Can tell We know that he was contacted by the
local law enforcement after he made these statements, these original statements,
and they said we're going to clarify and correct his information.
We're not sure exactly how that went, but we know
(42:16):
afterward the professor, aside from that retraction, was much more
hesitant to speak about this to the press. And we're
on his side here because his words are being twisted, right,
and he's very concerned about that. He's trying to do
the right thing. We know that one of his colleagues,
a criminologist named Elizabeth Yardley, also out of Birmingham City.
(42:39):
She did agree to speak with the BBC and she
pointed out some stuff we've talked about before. She's really
pondering why this pusher theory stays in the public eye
and the zeitgeist despite the consistent and continual objections of
law enforcement. And I know we both saw this. The
first thing she says is there does seem to be
(43:02):
this insatiable appetite for real life serial killers?
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Oh yeah, oh yeah. True crime is so popular. And
if you can turn a series of accidents into a
serial killer story, guess what you can do. You can
sell books and make podcasts and make TV shows and
get stuff on ITV and you know, BBC four or whatever,
(43:28):
and it is just there. It is marketable in a
way that is very different than a series of accidents.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Exactly. Yeah, there's a through line, there's a narrative arc,
there's something bigger at play, and the human brain loves
a pattern, loves to see a pattern, wants things explained.
And to be completely honest, the family members and friends
of people who have been discovered dead in these canals,
(43:55):
they deserve an explanation. They deserve that closure. Secondly, and
this is a point again from Yardly, perhaps most importantly,
they're mysteries surrounding these deaths, there are open questions. Multiple
deaths are still considered unsolved as far as the corner
is concerned, which means we know the person is dead,
(44:18):
but we don't know exactly how they died. And so
long as those cases remain unsolved, speculation is going to thrive.
Add a little spice to that one, to that milange.
We see that there are documented cases of people being
attacked by the canal. Ah, we'll keep it in. What
(44:40):
I mean is being attacked while they are near the canales,
not by the canals themselves.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
It just created such a wonderful picture in my mind,
as you said.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
Yeah, I've seen like a dangerous canal, maybe like in
a corner somehow smoking a cigarette.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
In my mind, the canal is like a big mouth
and it opens just a little wider as somebody's riding
their bike across.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
Ah, which leads us to a specific case.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
Yeah, this is some fuel to the fire. This is
the high octane gas. One of the cases of a
genuine attack, which appears to be a murder attempt, comes
to us from April tenth, twenty eighteen. There's a thirty
four year old man who is unidentified by the press
at this point, and he is attacked. He is on
(45:27):
a bike. He is attacked on his bike. He has
thrown into the Bridgewater Canal. And he said the person
who did this had to be a complete psychopath because
this dude who gets pushed in thrown in, he almost
drowns because he's panicking. His legs are entangled in his
bicycle and as he is trying to get out, he
(45:49):
raises his hands. He has his hands on the precipice.
He is able to pull himself out. He's coming home
from work, he has not been partying. You know, this
is not like some Christmas dinner event with too much schnapps.
He is going to be able to get out. And
then the person who attacks him, described as a white
male between the age of twenty and forty, kicks him
(46:10):
back into the water.
Speaker 4 (46:12):
Yikes.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Yeah, terrify.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
And this particular assailant was able to get away from
the scene. And that was that, right, I mean that's
like there are no leads to chase down some unknown
white male with a very very large age range. Right,
you can't put out an APB on that guy.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
And the description, Yeah, this is this is terrible for
law enforcement and investigators, because the description includes things like
he had a normal haircut.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Yeah, uh oh, that's easy.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
Let me let me do a sketch of that.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
And you know, we're beyond thankful that this person is alive.
The attacker, as she said matt did, eventually sprint away
from the scene as it's described, and this allowed the
victim to crawl back on land. Another important note, the
attacker was not trying to steal anything, Like he didn't
(47:12):
try to push this guy off his bike and take
his bike. He didn't say, you know, you whip out
a knife for a gun and say give me your
iPhone or whatever. Also another important note, this victim in
particular clearly clearly on the wrong end of an attempted murder.
He does not fit that proposed demographic for the gay
(47:35):
slain theory. We know he's a married father of two.
But again, you know, while we're weighing everything out, did
the attacker know that, yeah, well.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yeah, there are a lot of questions there as well.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
This is.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
An unidentified man, both the attacker and the victim, and
we know that people's lives can you know, be complicated,
So there's also like room for maybe there's you know,
I'm just saying a lot of it is not concrete.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
One hundred percent. And I think I agree with you.
That's a really important point. We're not attempting to profile anybody.
We're saying again, you can't leave any stone unturned. You
have a lot that you have to learn. Right, For instance,
was this a crime of opportunity? Was it premeditated? Right?
(48:33):
Did this person decide they were going to hurt someone
and they just picked a target they saw or did
they know? You know, this guy gets off at ten pm,
he goes this way home. I will find him at
Point B you know what I mean. Tough questions, man,
Tough questions, Like you said, The police have yet to
(48:54):
identify or arrest the assailant. They again stress that this is,
in their opinion, an isolated incident. It is not part
of a larger scheme. The police also reject overall the
concept that someone is targeting members of the LGBTQ community.
(49:16):
Other than the fact that they're male, other than the
fact that they've been found in or by water, there's
nothing whatsoever linking these deaths. That's their official conclusion.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
That's correct. That's at least what they say let's take
a quick word from our sponsors and we'll be back
with more on the Manchester Pusher.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
And we have returned, folks. As we've established here, family
members of the deceased tend to not agree with the
explanation or the conclusions of law enforcement they have. Often
family members of the deceased have shared story that seem
to indicate foul play in at least some circumstances. We've
(50:05):
got to go back to the Manchester Evening News. They're
doing great local journalism on this. Journalist John Sheerhoot notes
several accounts from parents, and we talked about a few
of them. But I think maybe to get the human
moment here, you've got to hear what the parents are saying,
(50:26):
because that helps us see the validity in their objections.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Well, yeah, specifically because the parents experienced one thing and
then when the police begin investigating, they've got hard evidence
for what they can prove and they're going that route,
but the parents are saying, yeah, but we experienced something different.
Speaker 4 (50:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
This is a twenty one year old person who in
twenty twelve was found in the Manchester Ship Canal. His
name is David Plunkett. His parents their last experience with
him was a phone call where he is quote screaming
and howling about something. But the police, you know, when
(51:07):
they look at the evidence, when they've got a body
to begin investigating, say oh, this was an accident.
Speaker 3 (51:15):
Yeah, And that's got to be really damaging and hurtful
to hear as a parent when you're saying, look, I
will give you my phone, right, yes, search the information
of the data here. Our child called us. There was
screaming and howling in the background. That's rough man.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, you don't imagine that's something that occurs once you've
fallen into the water. You don't get your phone and
make a phone call from the water.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah. And if you fall into a canal and you
get out and then you call someone, you're probably gonna
mention that on the call. Yeah, I would imagine. Then
we have another case like Nathan Tomlinson who is discovered
in the river irwell, pardon my pronunciation, I R W
E L L. His mother to this day believes the
(52:07):
death is suspicious because her son's coat, phone, wallet, and
believe his passport we're gone. He's reported missing on Christmas.
His body is found two months later, and she is saying,
you know, this could be a robbery gone wrong, right,
which which makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
Oh yeah, it's another one of those instances where it
could be absolutely anything. An accident makes it kind of
go away if it is that, right, But if it's
not that, then this is a lot of police work
that would have to be done.
Speaker 3 (52:46):
Right, right, And we're you know, we're not saying that's
what's happening. We're saying we have to consider that option absolutely.
And I'm doing that because I just had this moment
flash my head where we get a call from like
the chief of the Greater Manchester Police. But I think
we're being very fair.
Speaker 4 (53:07):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
You don't understand this is a lot and I'm just
showing yeah, no, but we don't know the full circumstances
for any of these cases, right, Nobody does, even if
you're following you know, the Manchester Evening News daily, and
even if you go back in time and it's twenty twelve,
twenty thirteen and you're trying to understand what's happening, we
(53:29):
don't know outside of the official investigation that doesn't get leaked.
You don't hear the official details of that stuff, right,
Because there's always the potential that somebody knows details that
nobody else knows if there is an assailant of some form, right,
and if not, if there's no official investigation, then there's
(53:50):
no record of any of the stuff that you might want,
like the cell phone records.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
Right, Yeah, that's one of the questions too. Again, this
is such a heavily surveiled the world. What about cell
phone tracking? What about closed circuit television CCTV. It's everywhere
in the United Kingdom, and this means that it's fairly
common for investigators to find CCTV footage of people who
(54:17):
are later discovered dead in a canal, maybe on the
night of their disappearance, maybe on the night of their
confirmed death.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
It does feel like it does feel like you could
track somebody leaving a bar, right specifically, like those areas
where there would be a pub, there's gonna be cameras
all over there and along the you know, the official
canal ways, my god, of course, there's cameras all over
the businesses there, and then official ones probably for the
(54:44):
city or for you know, I'm assuming the for the city.
It feels like you could track somebody's movements all the way.
Speaker 3 (54:53):
Yeah, it feels like it could be as simple as
person A is walking by you know store B. So
we have the footage of them walking by. They continue
down the street or down the you know, the pathway
along the canal, and there's another shop, nightclub, a venue
or something, even if they're not open, they have security
cameras on. So then you could just sort of trace
(55:16):
it from point to point, from A to Z.
Speaker 4 (55:19):
Yeah, it is crazy because you don't. You don't.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
We're so used to watching police procedurals and you know,
heavily fictionalized versions of that thing. But there would be
individual officers, probably two, that would have to travel to
a location, get the CCTV footage of that private business,
corroborate that with the you know, public cameras, corroborate that
(55:44):
with the stories and the timelines, then make phone calls
and maybe even take trips to someplace and get all
of that other documentation of like the phone records. And
you just imagine the time involved in a single accidental
death and or homicide, right one victim. That is so
many hours really really, I mean just an effort.
Speaker 3 (56:08):
And these folks are often underfunded, right, they often don't
have the resources that they would ideally receive. And add
to this the bureaucracy, because every you're not a criminal,
so every step you bake has to be clean. You
have to get approval for the phone records, you have
(56:28):
to have a little bit of paperwork to get the
television footage, the CCTV footage. That's the reason why your
pals Bet and Mad over here can't just stroll into
a Dave and Busters and try to crack down on them.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (56:47):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (56:49):
I mean we can't go to We've got a lot
of juice at David Busters. But you and I cannot
walk in there and say, all right, you know, flash
the inside of the coat and say give us give
us the footage from Thursday.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
Oh man, that would be a cool superpower, though.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
I bet you and I are nice enough dudes that
I bet we could talk someone into it. We could
roll for charisma instead of intimidation. I think that would
be our only way.
Speaker 4 (57:16):
Oh that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
Hey, I want to put something here as like an
easter egg that only people who've listened this far in
this episode will ever hear. But maybe one day it'll
be used in investigation. For me, I have cameras all
over my house because we've been sponsored by camera things
before in the past, and they're all in the outside
of my house and they run twenty four to seven
if there's any movement. So and the way it functions
(57:39):
with the service, there are thirty days of movements they
get recorded, so if I ever go missing or anything happens,
there's gonna be thirty days that can be studied by
law enforcement, just to see who came, who went, and all.
Speaker 4 (57:55):
That good stuff.
Speaker 3 (57:56):
I hope it never comes to that, but it is
smart to have that. Do you have do you have
like an app for it?
Speaker 5 (58:02):
There's an app for that smart.
Speaker 3 (58:05):
I think that's how most of them work now, and
it really is a good idea. Less we sound paranoid,
it's good to have that kind of monitoring capability for
your own domicile. We're also huge fans of everyone having
cameras on your car. Not to not like a creepy
(58:25):
insurance thing. Not not so the insurance company can watch
you driving, but something looking out your front windshield, looking
out the rear view uh, so that you don't end
up in a he said, She said, situation.
Speaker 4 (58:39):
Of real talk.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
Do you have that, because I need I need some
advice on what system to get.
Speaker 3 (58:43):
I've got one actually that I am. I got a
new one that I'm putting in that's not not super
duper fancy. I don't want it connected to anything more
than it needs to be connected to just.
Speaker 4 (58:56):
Do its thing.
Speaker 3 (58:58):
I like that.
Speaker 4 (58:58):
All right, well, let's talk.
Speaker 3 (59:00):
We'll talk after, but folks, please, and you know what,
let's open the floor. Fellow conspiracy realist, recommend your your
pick for a car camera. Again, we're not we're not
being sinister or creepy. There is a moment where you
could help other people, right, you might witness an accident
that you're not involved in anyway.
Speaker 2 (59:21):
Okay, Tennessee pal just linked us to a mirror dash
cam that has a rear view mirror and smart driving assistant,
all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 3 (59:30):
Oh man, all right, thank you?
Speaker 5 (59:34):
Cool?
Speaker 3 (59:34):
What a mention? What a route of Bega is? So
for with this, that's a weird inside joke for us.
So h this is where we get to one of
the bag of Badger's situations, the real pickle. With all
of this footage and all of this excellent investigation by
law enforcement and by filmmakers right, and by family members too.
(59:59):
No single assailant has been documented or identified as of yet,
meaning the mystery of the canal deaths remain. And we
do want to give a tip of the cap again
to Professor Jackson who as a very brief moment where
I feel like an interviewer is sort of pushing him
(01:00:20):
on some things, and he notes that it seems there
was one individual questioned, but nothing came of it, no
charges were filed. There is at this point to law enforcement,
there is no such thing as a Manchester pusher. So
we got to go to counter theories. Dave Wilson, head
(01:00:41):
of the Manchester Water Safety Partnership. He is one of
the guys that often gets quoted sharing a theory that
we all find unfortunately quite plausible. Alcohol related deaths. A
lot of these occur in or around nightclub areas. Nightclub neighborhoods,
(01:01:03):
bars and restaurants love the canals. They line the canals.
This is prime real estate. It's a scenic view, you
know what I mean. If you're going to choose between
one place or another, why not go to the place
with a patio and a nice little view of the water.
Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Well, yeah, and if there are other night spots around,
then yeah, people are going to be hanging out walking
and they might show up in your establishment. So absolutely
that's where you put your nightclub. It's just by that,
you know, kind of scary precipice if it goes down
into the water.
Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
Yeah, and now fast forward, it's a night of partying,
hanging with some loved ones, some old friends. You might
be celebrating a holiday like New Year's or Christmas. You've
had a lot right of whatever your visive choice is.
You are walking home, maybe unsteadily in the dark. Let's
say the weather is poorish. It is possible for you
(01:02:00):
to slip and fall, maybe hit your head. Maybe you're
not able to remove yourself safely. And because this might
happen very late at night, there's no one around to
help you. This is totally possible. But a lot of
family and friends of people who have been found in
the canals, they don't say this is a satisfying explanation.
(01:02:20):
In fact, some will allege, as we alluded to, a
cover up may be a foot that, like you were saying,
met that police might conspire in some way to downplay
problems or to push for alternative explanations like accidents, suicide,
all isolated cases, partially to save face maybe, and then
(01:02:40):
partially to quell public panic, because dude, you know this
from all the other research we've done, law enforcement has
to be very very careful about any statement regarding a
possible serial murderer. You can inspire copycat crimes. You will
get tons of very weird fake leads.
Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Oh yeah, that's that's a major problem. When you know
what you could do. You could just put barriers up
along the whole thing, with cameras along all the barriers.
There you go, problem solved, and you only need one
billion dollars.
Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Right, one billion pounds, which used to be a lot
of money back back in earlier days. Now it feels
like there's a billionaire around every corner. Also, you make
this excellent point, and it's intensely frustrating. We can only
imagine to a lot of people, why would you not
have barriers? What good fences make good neighbors. Robert Frost
(01:03:45):
was right about that. There was a petition signed by
ninety seven thousand people, almost one hundred thousand people to
get some barriers installed, not even along the entirety of canals,
but along certain higher trafficked areas, and it makes sense.
It also just candidly seems like an infrastructure thing that
(01:04:06):
should have been done way long ago.
Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Yeah, well, and that petitions from twenty eighteen. So there's
spend some time if you're out there in Manchester, because
we don't have, you know, official imagery of all the
canal areas if you're not a.
Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
Dave and Busters. We don't have the reach, not yet.
Speaker 4 (01:04:24):
But well maybe there is, what if there.
Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
Is, Yeah, we have to check. Hey, we'll keep it
all this in in the United Kingdom, just to check
the facts are important. There is a Dave Ibusters in London.
Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Okay, well we need a Manchester location then we'll be
able to know just how many barriers have been installed.
Speaker 4 (01:04:46):
But if you're from there, let us know.
Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
I was just checking there are arcade sites in Manchester London.
Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
Oh well, you know there might be tunnel systems.
Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
We'll have to check.
Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
We'll have to do some digging and and moving on.
There is another disturbing possibility. At least some of these
deaths could be deemed suicide. However, as multiple documentaries point out.
Now as Vice points out, and some of their articles
on this. Currently, it's estimated that of people who choose
(01:05:18):
to take their own lives a poultry, four percent choose
to do so by drowning, and drowning is a very
scary way to go, you know what I mean. So
it's not as fast nor as dependable as some other methods.
Often people who are choosing to take their own lives
(01:05:39):
may leave a note or some sort of message to
the world. We're not seeing that happening. Given those facts,
it's safe for us to conclude that suicide is an
increasingly implausible explanation. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Yeah, you know, something we haven't even talked about is
how cold it gets in the area, and when it
does get really cold, some of the canals freeze over,
and just the dangers that that poses. I didn't even
consider that until I looked at the image that came
up when you it's this change dot org petition we
(01:06:16):
were talking about, or they're showing part of the canal
frozen over, but not all of it is. But if
you fell in in a part that was not frozen over,
and you were, you know, pushed underneath some of that ice,
just how horrifying and possibly life ending that would be.
Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
And you're incapacitated or you're panicking and you're trying to
find the you know, the entry point where you came
through that It sounds simple if you're listening in a
safe place right now, but when you're in the moment,
it's very easy to panic, and people do die that way. Yeah,
(01:06:54):
dark stuff. And there's also the possibility that murders may
have occurred in isolated incidents, but they might not have
been intentional murder. It might have been more like what
we will call manslaughter here in the United States, a
robbery gone wrong, or even I hate to say this,
but people can be knuckleheads, even something as stupid as
(01:07:16):
a cruel prank. Think about it. You know, I was
thinking about this earlier. If we're hanging out, we would
never do this because we're not jerks. But if we
were all hanging out with buddies, you know, it's it's you, Matt,
it's me, it's Dylan, it's Noel, it's you, fellow conspiracy realist,
and we're partying or whatever, and we're getting a little rowdy,
(01:07:37):
and then someone pushes someone jokingly into a canal and
then they fall in and stuff goes horribly wrong. How
many people listening tonight would come forward and say that
they accidentally killed someone.
Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
Oh geez, I didn't consider that.
Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Uh yeah, because we don't hang out like that. We're
actually really nice people.
Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Oh yeah, well, I'm trying to put myself, you know,
in my sixteen eighteen year old shoes or something about
just trying to have a laugh and then something going
wrong and then your whole life is over.
Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
If you go to the police, exactly right, it's and
tell us what you would do, folks, and if you're comfortable,
tell us what you did do in that situation something
like that has occurred to you. We hope that is
not the case, but things do happen. And then we
also see documentaries. Right. Sometimes these theories will spring up
(01:08:32):
in true crime forums and then they'll kind of go
away outside of a niche group of people who are
interested or believe in it. But sometimes they get revived.
In twenty sixteen, a documentary named Manchester's Serial Killer by
Darren Lavelle dove into these allegations and then brought the
story back to the global zeitgeist. They aired it Let's
(01:08:56):
see what we say twenty sixteen, and then from what
I stand A few years later, in twenty eighteen, Channel
four in the UK airs the documentary again and police
know that it's going to be aired again, so they
they try to get in front of controversy and they
air their own video response on YouTube preemptively, wherein they
(01:09:21):
again emphasize they have found no evidence to link the victims,
let alone support the idea of a serial killer. It
doesn't work. Really. It seems like the majority of the
public is not saying, Okay, they've solved it. I agree,
they have a lot of questions still.
Speaker 4 (01:09:37):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
You can look at the work of another writer named
Thomas Sheridan that has been quoted a bunch of times,
specifically in the Manchester Evening News and Metro dot co
dot UK. He was, you know, just trying to put
forward this concept that potentially there's a killer. And this
is back like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, right around the
(01:10:00):
time of that documentary's first airing.
Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
Yeah, and there are other documentaries that follow. There are
varying levels of detail. Some are arguing for the killer
theory pretty hard. Some are just seem to be debunking it,
you know, And this involves retired detectives like Tony Blockley.
This all these documentaries also are often made with the
(01:10:24):
support and participation of victims, friends and family, So just
just to be clear, this is often not a matter
of exploitation. It is people trying to find answers, and
the mythology continues to grow. We checked in as we
were coming to record this evening with you folks, and
(01:10:44):
right now there are an estimated around eighty six total
deaths in the Canal that proponents of the pusher theory
will cite as examples. No one's arguing really that these
are all due to homicide, or that they're all due
to a serial murderer, but a lot of people are
convinced that some of the deaths are the work of
(01:11:06):
a killer. Yeap.
Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
I've got a quick thing here from the Royal Society
for the Prevention of Accidents, which again, wow, that's yeah,
and it sounds very hot fuzz to me.
Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
That's crazy, what a cool job.
Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
This is what they state, and this is back in
twenty fifteen. In January they stated there are around two
hundred and sixty inland drowning deaths in the United Kingdom
each year, So two hundred and sixty each year and
the rate of deaths is around four times higher in
areas with a high frequency of rivers and canals. Okay,
(01:11:45):
so they're just trying to give some kind of baseline
for the number of deaths that occur each year.
Speaker 4 (01:11:50):
And we said before the.
Speaker 2 (01:11:52):
Sixty one deaths that are kind of lumped in most
of the time with the Manchester pusher are from twenty
eight to twenty fourteen, right, So like that's that's quite
a few deaths, right, But that's also over a bunch
of years, and Manchester is one of those places that
have that has a high number of canals and rivers.
Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
I guess somebody would have to go through and do
statistical analysis to know, like is it that much higher
or is it about the same?
Speaker 3 (01:12:21):
Right? Yeah, once you adjust for the variables, it would
also be it should you choose to embark upon this endeavor, folks,
We've got your back. We think it would also be interesting,
if not critical, to correlate time time of year. Right,
So are more people dying during the holidays or more
(01:12:43):
people dying when the weather is less friendly?
Speaker 4 (01:12:46):
Yeah? Exactly, I didn't even think I has been. There
are a couple other.
Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Statistics that do kind of They actually go directly to
the heart of this case. They say around twenty percent
of drowning deaths involve people falling into waterways, so like
falling in fifteen percent of those who have died had
been drinking alcohol at the time that they fell into
the canal. And they also found that quote, the rate
(01:13:10):
of deaths among men is around four times higher than
women in these cases of drowning.
Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
I see, yeah, and this yeah, please, this is needful context.
We'd love to hear your conclusions. Folks. We know that
right now, multiple deaths in these canals in Greater Manchester
remain officially unsolved. Police have always maintained a serial killer
theory is false, and they say that the statements of
this one scholar, taken out of context, gave rise to
(01:13:40):
a massive wave of internet speculation with no real supporting evidence.
But people want answers more than that. People deserve answers.
So if you live in the Manchester area, or if
you've spent time there, we want to hear from you
in your experience. Do people in the community put any
creed to this theory? What do you think? Do you
(01:14:02):
find it plausible? Do you think it's bunk or do
you like so many genuinely believe there's something the police
don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
Are you the Danny Butterman out there, son of Inspector
Frank Butterman.
Speaker 3 (01:14:20):
It's a great accent. Well do and folks again, we
invite you to join us here. We want to share
your stories and your takes with our fellow listeners. You
can find us on Instagram, you can find us on YouTube,
you can find us on x all the places, all
the nets, and all the ents net nets. We'll keep it.
(01:14:43):
We'll keep it. If you don't want to sip the
social needs, we totally get it. Go ahead and give
us a phone call.
Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Our number is one eight to three three st d
wyt K. It is a voicemail system. When you call in,
you've got three minutes. Please give yourself a cool nickname.
Let us know in the message if we can use
your name and message on the air. If you've got
more to say than can fit in that message. Maybe
you've got links, maybe you've got pictures. Why not send
us an email.
Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet I'm afraid. Sometimes the
void writes back, Send us the pictures, send us the links,
Let us know if we need to protect your anonymity.
Let us know if a message is for the wider
group of us here on the show, or if it's
(01:15:30):
something that you just want to keep between us. We
can't wait to hear from you. Step a little further
from the light, Join us out here in the dark
conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Our colleague Nol is on an adventure, but will be
returning shortly.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
argue you are here. That makes this the stuff they
don't want you to know. Matt, full disclosure. This is
a topic we had we kind of discussed offline when
(00:52):
we were planning different episodes, and this is one that
I almost stepped away from and then you said no
and we got to keep it. What the heck is
going on here?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, this is a story that reminds me heavily of
one of my favorite movies of all time, and we'll
talk about that when we get to it. For me personally,
that is why I insisted then we cover.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
This talk and this exploration. I can't wait to learn
about the film. I'm going to spend the entire time
trying to guess which one it is, but I can't
wait to go there with you. Tonight's exploration takes us
across the pond, across the Atlantic to Manchester, England. It
is a place that I believe, Dylan, Matt and myself
(01:40):
have never personally visited. We are exploring a grizzly tragic
story decades in the making. This episode will contain descriptions
of death, will contain allegations of some pretty disturbing, unclean things. Matt.
If we go to Manchester and we talk to people
(02:01):
who believe in a certain theory, they will tell us
that there is an active serial killer operating with impunity
throughout the Greater Manchester area, targeting young men. But then,
you know, we could as easily go across the street
to some other place where we would find critics who
(02:22):
say the entire thing is made up. And a lot
of those critics candidly are going to be law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, and they would call it rubbish at least that's
the way they talk about it in the.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
News, absolutely, and have maintained that stance for decades. One
aspect of the story that rings inarguably true is simply
this people have died and are dying in these waterways
in these canals. This is the story of the Manchester Pusher.
(03:02):
Here are the facts all right again? You know, we
have not personally visited Manchester, and I think there's something
we need to we need to clear the air on
before we continue. Greater Manchester is kind of like fairly
(03:22):
far north sort of northwest of London in the United Kingdom.
And we can think of it the way you think
of a county here in the US, you know, like
Fulton County. What's another county, Gwet, Gwinnett. There we go.
That's one of the good ones for sy Yes, is
(03:44):
it for Syth the land of retired delta pilots and
golf cart drivers and accountants and accountants they get in there.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
I don't know. That was my dad?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yes, Yes, all true. And tip of the cap to
the legendary mister Frederick. What you may find confusing if
you're not familiar with the area, and something that's going
to be important to this story later. The Greater Manchester
thing we're talking about again, it's like a county. The
largest city in that what they call a ceremonial county
(04:22):
is also called Manchester. Sort of how you have New
York and then you have New York City, and depending
on how far away you get from the city, those
are two very different places.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Oh so true, And Manchester does look quite sprawling when
you view it from above in one of these maps
that we have handy nowadays. It is pretty lovely. If
you want to find it, just head on over to Liverpool.
You've heard of that before though, he ows, and then
just head on east inwards.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Basically, yeah, the this area is like so much of
the United Kingdom overall, it's heavily developed. There's a lot
of dense urbanization. The population overall is about two point
nine million. This wasn't always the case. Pre Industrial Revolution
and before the days of widespread coal mining, cotton in
(05:15):
the textile industry, Manchester was a pretty rural place. It
boomed like so many other places did during the Industrial Revolution,
and then it went bust as people moved away from coal,
as various local industries died. Now, if you go you
will see that Manchester is home to all sorts of
(05:37):
new industries, very big in the digital economy. And of
course we would be remiss to not shout out world
famous football or soccer teams like Manchester United.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Boom boom, and then let's definitely talk about Well, actually
I've noticed it, and maybe I'm full wrong here. This
is just an observation on my part. I've noticed multiple cities,
especially in Europe, that have large urban areas like this,
(06:12):
that have just so many canals that go through them
like like vanes, like a nervous system spreads throughout a city.
And you know, we've talked before on this show about
how important rivers were for especially in the United States,
but everywhere we knew it because of the United States
for transportation, how important the water was for getting stuff
(06:35):
long distances right. And you you know, I'm not sure
if it's the same with the canals here, but you
definitely see where the water. The city was built up
around the waterways, and then other waterways were interconnected to
each other to continue the flow.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Absolutely, and that's an important point for any development nerds.
Fellow development nerds in the crowd may be interested to
learn that our fair metropolis of Atlanta, Georgia is a
bit of an anomaly. Big cities historically are built along
navigable water, be that a coast, be that a river way,
(07:15):
and Atlanta has some creeks, right We're in a state
with no natural bodies of water on its own. All
the lakes here are artificial. And then we've got the Chattahoochee,
which is navigable to a certain point depending on what
you want to.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
Do by inflatable tube by inflatable tubes, preferably with some
Garth Brooks play in or who's that guy who did
way down yonder on the chattahooch Wait, Alan Jackson.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Thank you, Dylan. Dylan was quick on the trigger for
that one. You had that locked and loaded.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I can totally see Dylan just floating the hooch, got
Maddie light in one hand.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
So it's weird because and this has nothing to do
with our conversation now, it's weird because Atlanta is anomalous
in that sense of historical community and city development. We
have long argued and I think we're all just very
fascinating with the fact that the railway replaced the role
(08:22):
of the river for Atlanta, and then later the airways
replaced the role of you know, the rivers the railways.
In fact, we are home to the busiest airport in
the world, kaveat caveat Asterisk. But you make this excellent
(08:43):
point here, Matt. There is a lifeblood that goes through
a lot of these cities. And Manchester is not London,
but it is a serious city. It's got a ton
of interesting stuff to do, and it's got this network
of canals. Not as robust a network as some other
(09:03):
nearby towns like Birmingham, but canals in general, they always
seem so cool to land lubber at lantons like us.
It's weird. We get excited when we see bodies of water, like,
oh my gosh, what happened there?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah, And just the physicality of some of these because
there are rivers that run through and then the canals
are much smaller right in scale at least if you
think about in the width of actual water as it's
rolling through, you know, buildings on one side with a
sidewalk of some sort and then the same on the
other side. But one of the important things to note
(09:39):
here is specifically in a lot of these places, these canals,
where the water is fairly deep, yes, and where the
top of the water reaches there's a pretty good amount
at least heightwise, of like concrete or stone work that
goes up to where somebody could get into that water
(10:01):
or get out of that water, specifically for flooding purposes. Right,
if there's an influx of a bunch of water, you
don't want all that water coming over into the streets.
You got to make sure there's enough space between the
top of that water and the edge of where it
could potentially spill over.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, and there are importantly often not barriers. You will
see warning signs. You will see something posted that says
watch out, you know, like don't jump in, because so
many of these canal ways are very deep. You could
(10:39):
jump in and then have a very difficult time getting out. Also,
just to be clear, this is not to cast dispersion
on the good people of Manchester. The canals are dirty.
Don't drink the water, you know what I mean, Like
just not even on a dare.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
No, I mean it's best runoff, right, Yeah, water that's
entering there, you know, through some of the river weys.
But then it's also all the spill off water from
all of that industrial or just you know, regular urban area.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
What we're saying is nobody is fishing in these or
no one should be, at least in the inner city
area of Manchester. They are picturesque, though a lot of
the views there are beautiful, and it's important to remember
that they can still be dangerous. We want to draw
(11:31):
your attention, folks, to an excellent piece by the Manchester
Evening News back in twenty sixteen, so almost ten years
ago now. They created an interactive map that showed the
locations of sixty one separate deaths, or we should say
discovery of bodies between two thousand and eight and twenty fourteen.
(11:54):
The bodies were all male. They were all found in
or next to canals and waterways, and it's worth a
look at this map. You can find it again just
search Manchester Evening News pusher map and you will find it.
When you scroll through, you can see the rubric that
(12:16):
they've instituted. It will show you where an individual went missing,
where their body was found, and then the coroner's ultimate verdict. However,
and this is incredibly upsetting for a lot of the
victims family and friends, the corner's verdict in multiple cases
(12:36):
is still open, meaning they have not officially determined the
cause of death. And Matt, you and I have worked
in the true crime world for quite a while now,
and so we know that drowning in particular can be
a bag of badgers forensically.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Oh yeah, And if you take a look at this
map just I've kind of lost in it for a
second here, been looking at specifically, I think this would
be the Rockdale Canal r O C H D A
L E Canal where there are multiple spots along that
specific canal where bodies have been discovered or people have
been found deceeased, and that runs right through the major
(13:20):
part just north of the University district. If you're looking
at a map.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
There, Yeah, yeah, exactly. Piccadilly, Manchester. Piccadilly has at least
you know, the five documented cases, and in some cases
further you will see name unknown an unidentified body is found,
which is frankly bizarre in the United Kingdom, especially in
(13:47):
recent times, because it is one of the most heavily
surveiled civilizations on the planet. There's CCTV and cell phone
tracking everywhere. It's kind of hard to be a stranger
in this part of the world. So you know, you're
if you are a corner and you are attempting to
determine a cause of death, when when you get to
(14:10):
the case of drowning, you have to also ask yourself
what happened before. Was there a slip and fall, maybe
a head injury that resulted in ultimate drowning. Was there
any evidence like ligature marks or something like that showing
that someone had died before they were put in the water.
That's the real, real tough part.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Well, and often toxicology comes into this stuff, especially because
of the nature of those canals, because there are bars
and pubs and places that you can go to all
along those canals where somebody may have a drink or
ten and accidentally fall right, which goes into the stuff
you're talking about and anything happened to the head, because
(14:53):
that could also be a fall, or it could be
blunt force trauma exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Yeah, well said, And it's a great point about intoxicating substances.
We're talking about alcohol because there are you know, there's
a robust series of nightclub districts and bars and restaurants,
but we're also talking about party drugs, you know, which
could which could have some of the same physical effects.
(15:21):
This is, you know, this uncomfortable stuff to think through.
But the investigations themselves, even as we record this evening
in twenty twenty five, they are incredibly important for family
members and friends who are searching for closure after the
death of a loved one. You know, just there is
a kind of peace in understanding what actually happened. And yeah,
(15:46):
we said, Manchester's canals have plenty of signage, plenty of
posted warnings, but it is so easy to dismiss or
ignore a warning sign, especially if you live in the area.
You start to get your blinders on. Right, I know
this street. I don't need to figure out the speed
limit or you know, right, turn on red only or whatever.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Once you get into that auto functioning mode, you just
have to be really careful because your faculties aren't working
the same.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And look, there's something weird with the pattern here. Despite
being about the same size as Birmingham, or comparable to
Birmingham in the UK, and despite the fact that Birmingham
has a larger canal network, more people seem to be
dying in Manchester's canals, and people to this day are
(16:43):
still asking why you know we're talking about this Earlier
the police have always maintained that these are isolated instances.
If you ask the Greater Manchester Police or GMP now
they will still tell you there is no real pattern
to these deaths. The vast majority can be explained as simple,
(17:07):
no tragic accidents. And I think you painted the picture
really well there. The weather's not always great. Things get slippery, muddy,
you can slip and fall, and you can hit your head.
And the bad weather can make it tough to get
out of a canal once you're in, especially if we're
talking about the ones with the very high distance between
(17:30):
the surface and the water.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, but it does make you think, well, if these
are all just isolated incidents and there are this many
drownings in that many years, then we need to really
really do some work on the rail the railings that
are installed and the fences.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah, maybe put up some barriers.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Yeah maybe, because if you.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Again, we are land lubber Atlanta. And I don't know
about you, man, but I've seen I've seen things where
you know, I'm looking at these pictures of Manchester and
the canals and I'm thinking that's a disaster waiting to happen,
you know what I mean. There's a restaurant with a
patio right there, and then not more than a few
(18:18):
meters away, there's a drop off.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Well, well and here. I think about where I used
to live down near Shambly, Georgia, and there's a place
called the Frosty Caboose. And this is a place where
you can go and get ice cream.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
Right, okay, a bunch of kids.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
One of my favorite things to do with Writer when
he was a little kid was go get ice cream
at the Frosty Caboose. But you can go enjoy your
ice cream in a special little area they've got with
picnic tables. And guess what, there is no barrier from
where you are having ice cream. And then the railroad
tracks which are right there.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Wow, And if you think.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
About the danger that that poses that I didn't think
about because I'm just enjoying my Frosty caboos delight stuff.
But that sounds naughty, but that's not what it is.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
It's ice cream.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
But just how dangerous it is to have that right
there with no real warnings or no protection other than
I think some railroad ties that people put up, you know,
as like hey, don't go over across these Hey just.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Think this went through. Yeah, right. And I love that
we're pointing this out because that is something that happens
so often, a thing that is dangerous, seems safe ninety
nine times out of one hundred, and then it's the
one hundredth time where someone says something should be done.
And it should come as no surprise that a lot
(19:41):
of people in Manchester do not buy the official police explanation,
which puts you know, they're saying, we'll get to the
variety of factors, but the law enforcement stance has always
been the majority of these are accidents, and usually we
don't want to sound, you know, as though we're blaming
(20:03):
the victims or anything. But usually they'll say toxicology reports
indicate the person whose body was discovered had ingested a
lot of alcohol or ingested some kind of you know,
party drug, the implication being they were stumbling home, maybe
after a big celebration with their friends, they slipped, and
(20:26):
it was late at night, because a lot of this
appears to happen in the evening. It was late at night,
so not many other people were out on the streets,
and these folks were physically unable to extricate themselves from
the canal and then drowned. But people don't buy it,
you know, they say, sure, accidents can explain some of
(20:48):
these deaths, but not all and depending upon whom you ask,
you will hear folks swear to you that's somewhere out
there in Manchester, a serial killer is hunting, as we were.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, and we'll talk about why they think that, because
there seems to be some precedent, maybe pretty close by.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Here's where it gets crazy, all right. It's called the
Manchester pusher theory, or just the pusher, as they say
to Manchester. This theory argues that at least since at
least two thousand and seven, if not earlier, there has
been an active serial murderer, or perhaps on the more
extreme end of the theory, a group of murderers operating
(21:39):
in Manchester in Greater Manchester, murdering victims by pushing them
into the canals, possibly with additional injuries that prevent them
from getting back out.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
That to me is a big deal, right, because it
all depends on how intoxicated a person potentially or a victim,
if there is a killer there, right, Because if if
you push me into a canal and I am a
little intoxicated, I'm getting out of that canal. But if
I'm too drunk or I've got other things in my body,
(22:15):
then maybe I can't or if you give me a
you know, wrap across the noggin, maybe I'm not going
to get out right.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
If someone knocks you unconscious and then throws you in
a canal, are you going to wake up? It's a
tough question to answer. And this also brings to mind
something that longtime fellow conspiracy realist have doubtlessly already clocked. Matt,
You and I spent a lot of time investigating something
(22:45):
called the smiley face murders. What are those?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
These are murders of mostly young men, where there is
somebody comes up missing for at least a few days,
if not, if not just hours, and then their body
is discovered somewhere near a body of water or in
a body of water, and generally, like the Corners report,
the report that comes back to the public and to
(23:11):
the family is that it was an accidental drowning of
some sort or usually related to the body of water.
That's how the death is categorized officially.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Often yeah, and the reason it's called smiley face murders
is because the investigators, some of whom are retired law
enforcement who believe that there is foul play at work.
They will tell you that in many of the smiley
face cases, there is some cryptic sign nearby graffiti. Think
(23:42):
of it a drawing of a smiley face or what
appears to be a smiley face. Please listen to our
episode that we did, gosh five years ago now, So
that case, like the Manchester Pusher, that theory remains dismissed
by law enforcement. They say, you know, it's a good story.
(24:05):
There's no evidence, or perhaps people are seeing patterns where
none exist, which is a human thing to do.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
One of the crevious things about that is that it
was occurring in several different cities across the US. It
wasn't just an isolated thing, right.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
It would for the smiley faced murders to be true,
it would mean that the killer was traversing the US,
traveling interstate, you know, from state to state boarders I mean,
and then also possibly acting in concert with other people.
And without getting too far into the rabbit hole. One
(24:45):
of the big theories that I think we I think
we discussed I can't remember which rabbit hole this one was,
is the idea that it was some person working for
an HVAC outfit called train tr and E.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, I remember something about that. The victims in the
Smiley Face murderers. Just want to reiterate, we're often young men,
and they often appeared to be targeted after a night
at a.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Bar, right right, and they were often disappearing near you know,
restaurants and bars and nightclubs. Another similar comparison would be
our previous series on the Interstate Corridor here in the US,
where the FBI genuinely they're not dismissing this when they
(25:34):
genuinely suspect there are multiple murderers affiliated with the long
haul trucking industry who are targeting people along this corridor,
especially in Texas.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, and there's precedent for that too. Thinking about the
happy Face killer there ah ooh, very close to the
Smiley Face.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Very much so. So we see already this is important context.
But because we see this pusher theory doesn't come from
out of the blue, it doesn't come from whole new cloth.
There are recedents, not just in the realm of theory,
but there are documented cases where things like this can occur.
(26:18):
The pusher, the Manchester Pushers, should one exist, does not
have a call sign nor a signature, as is alleged
with the Smiley Faced murders, but drowning bodies of water
universally male victims. All those signs are there, and these
canals are dangerous. Look at the pictures. Again, we're not
(26:42):
the coolest people, but we're kind of savvy and we
can identify danger from afar. We can read the room.
These canals. Some of them have ladders at various points
to help you climb in and out of the water,
especially where there's a very big distance between the water
and the surface. But those ladders aren't everywhere. There are barriers.
(27:04):
There are a few barriers, but those barriers aren't everywhere.
Even if you are in good shape, you know, you're
not panicking, you're not injured, and somehow you end up
in the canal. There are areas of these waterways where
it would be impossible for you to scale back to land.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, you'd have to follow the canal for quite a
while until you found essentially an escape, you know. Gosh,
and thinking about ending up in one of those canals
and being pursued by somebody above that can just walk
with you as you're trying to escape.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Ooh cinematic.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, well it's cinematic, and that's terrifying and You could
imagine how that would up your adrenaline, which would only
further cause you to exert yourself in the water.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
There are a lot of bad.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Scenarios make you more likely to ingest water as well
as you struggle to stay afloat. We also know that
the deaths in Manchester seem to occur in three canals
in particular one we mentioned earlier Roachdale, but then also
Ashton and Bridgewater Canals. A lot of these folks are
(28:14):
inarguably accidents, some may be suicides. They may be possibly
a situation where a person took their own life. But
the frequency of those deaths in Manchester, again compared to
other similar cities, the pattern is odd. And this is
where we want to tip our cap to the BBC.
(28:37):
They chase down the origin of this story or the
origin of this idea when it entered the zeitgeist, when
it became part of popular culture. This is where we
find Professor Craig Jackson, an academic over at Birmingham City University,
and he was speaking to The Day Least Star Sunday
(29:01):
in twenty fifteen and he said he found it quote
extremely unlikely that such an alarming number of bodies found
in the canals could be the result of accidents or suicides.
He wasn't making any wackado claim. He was again pointing
to the quantifiable evidence and saying this is anomalous. He said,
(29:24):
maybe maybe there is an active assailant responsible for some
of these murders. But he never said a single person
was responsible for every death. He just said, you know,
in some cases you also have to look into the
possibility of homicide, which is absolutely true.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, oh yeah, he's given so many great quotes over
the years that what was that first place that you mentioned,
the Manchester Evening News. Yeah, yeah, he's given all kinds
of quotes that they've picked up in a bunch of
other places. But the concept that this professor is saying is, let's,
as you said, Ben, let's look at the potential that
(30:03):
at least a few of these are homicides. Let's use
some of the newer criminal behavioral examination techniques that exist
out there. Look at geographical profiling, which is a very
popular thing in the true crime world. At least if
you look at where deaths have occurred, right if you're
studying a serial killer, and then you can kind of
(30:25):
map out potentially where that killer exists or works or lives,
or you know, there's a location somewhere in there in
that map that this killer or this potential suspect would live,
which is really interesting, and just saying let's at least explore.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It, right, no stone left unturned. You know, it's your
ethical responsibility to the victim, to the deceased, to the survivors,
the family and friends. Jackson goes on to say, you know,
you don't need a canal killer quote unquote, specifically, the
(31:03):
canals are already and this is from him, already popular
dumping sites for bodies. So someone might commit a homicide
somewhere else, or someone may for any number of reasons,
feel they need to dispose of a cadaver and they
drive over to the canal and they drop the corpse
(31:24):
in there.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's reminiscent of the Atlanta child murders and specifically the
deaths right at the end of that case where bodies
were dumped into rivers to hide potential evidence that could
be on those bodies. And you can learn more about
that in the show Atlanta Monster, just to learn about
(31:47):
the case against Wayne Williams, but also just all of
those deaths and how water was used to potentially cleanse
those bodies of evidence.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and others. Commentators over the years looking
at the Manchester cases have speculated that if an active
serial killer is out there, that individual may be what
is sometimes called, and we don't love this term, sometimes
called a gay slayer, meaning that they are purposely targeting
(32:19):
gay men or men that they believe to be gay.
And that's one of the theories that's out there. Well.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, another killer, a known killer that's pointed to in
a lot of these writing that you'll see about this
case is a man named Dennis Nielsen that I didn't
know much about at all, But this was a killer
that it's been portrayed, by the way, by somebody. David
Tennant portrayed this killer, and he was specifically targeting gay men.
(32:55):
You can check out an ITV series called Desdes to
Learn about The Sky Biography has a pretty great write
up on him. But I think it was fifteen people
that he admitted to killing young gay men.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
And we also know, as we explored in our series
on Uncaught serial Killers, killers who are targeting disadvantaged populations
right or marginal populations often have a higher chance of
succeeding over time, because historically law enforcement has had a
(33:31):
lot of issues and barriers giving due diligence to those cases. Absolutely,
and we know that we know that this theory, the
idea of a quote unquote gayslayer, is based on the
known sexual orientation of some victims. But I would say
(33:51):
more importantly, it's based on the fact that several paths
along these canals in Manchester are known to be what
we'll call cruising areas, and a cruising areas where you know,
you go to find someone to hook up with basically,
or just go to meet someone for something intimate or romantic.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Yeah, it's the same with any club scene anywhere in
the world. Right this is the place where single people
will go to hang out and maybe meet somebody that
they can spend some time with because we're all a
little bit lonely.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And the idea here for these things, lest we sound
like we're vilifying them, the idea for these kind of
areas is that someone like everybody, will be consenting to
whatever they get up to. That's the idea, and as
you'll come to find, you don't see this in all
the many documentaries and podcasts that have come out about this.
(34:53):
But later Professor Jackson goes back and attempts to clear
the air, and like so many scholars and academics and
other subject matter experts, he has to go back to
the media and say, hey, you're doing a disservice chasing
this juicy headline. You're taking what I said out of context,
(35:17):
and now people are panicking. But his attempt at clarification
came far too late. The Internet rumor mill, especially Twitter,
grabbed onto this concept and the theory about hashtag the
pusher spread like wildfire, and wild was spreading. People are
still dying.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
So the image that is conjured in my head when
I hear Manchester pusher, I imagine some you know, darkly
cloaked figure that wanders along the canals searching for a
victim and then literally pushes people into the canal. What
the professor was talking about here and what he was
(35:59):
quoted in discussing and wanting to look further at, were
specific cases where somebody was let's say, officially missing for
seven days, ten days, sure, and then they show up
in the canal. Right, that that makes you understand, Okay,
he's thinking this person was taken by someone killed and dumped.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
There was an eighteen year old person at one point
that was found in a canal two weeks after he
went missing from a New Year's Eve party, which again
makes you think, oh wow, two weeks later, missing for
that long. Something's going on here, and it's not just
somebody pushing folks into the canal.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Yeah, exactly, And that is I believe we're talking about
Suvic Paul. Yes, yes, yeah, and his father can be
found in multiple documentaries saying look, there are unanswered questions.
Something about the official investigation feels stonewalled, right, or it
(36:58):
feels like maybe a little too quick to glom onto
a theory that makes them look good, you know, and
maybe they're a bit too hesitant to look at other
possibilities because they may put the investigation overall in a
bad light.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Dude, Oh, all right, do you mind if I bring
up the movie now, because this is what it's making
me think of.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Yeah, yeah, I've been I've been trying to guess that
I don't know what it was. For some reason, the
vanishing was in my head. But it's not that one.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Nope, this is one of our mutual favorite movies.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
I think, and I think it.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Would be one of Knowles as well, maybe even a
favorite movie of our Tennessee Powell.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Hot Fuzz.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
That's what I thought about Hot Fuzz.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yes, okay, now, look, this is a comedy. It's an
action comedy, action packed comedy. But this movie is about
a sleepy little town called Sandford where deaths, multiple deaths
are covered up by the local police because and they're
called accidents. They're made look as though they are accidents,
because well Sandford at the time. I don't want to
(38:02):
give it away too much, but Sanford had its own
reasons for wanting to make the desk look like accidents.
So what the crime rate in the village would be
so low? That's what it makes me think about. Not
that the police want to cover anything that they're doing up,
but they just don't want a bunch of homicides showing
up on the record for their.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Town, right right. The idea of pushing to clear the
cases in a good way. You know. Yeah, that's an
excellent comparison. I'm surprised and nailed it. Now. I've got
to go rewatch Hot Fuzz because that is a banger film.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
What Manchester needs is a Nicholas Angel.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
There we go, there we go. Let's let's lick into
these these deaths. There's a lot of fact, fiction and
confusion surrounding this. Remember how earlier we said Manchester the
city is distinct, it's within but distinct from Greater Manchester.
That's what makes this story pretty confusing for a lot
(39:05):
of people. In that earlier interview, the original one Professor
Jackson had with the Daily Star, the journalist site at
that point, sixty one deaths in canals and waterways documented
from twenty nine to twenty fifteen. They're probably more, unfortunately,
that's how those numbers work. But the stats you were
(39:27):
running into when you're reading about this story, when you
were hearing about this story, when you're checking out Internet chatter,
those stats for the Manchester Pusher are based on Greater Manchester,
not Manchester, the city, Greater Manchester, the county, and Greater
Manchester is hundreds of square miles. This includes towns they
(39:52):
have nothing to do with the Manchester Pusher, but they
do have canals, they do have waterways, and so what
you're hearing often is an aggregate reporting of all these
things happening across a much wider area.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Oh, yeah, it's true, and it's a very valid and
important point. The only counterpoint I have to it in
saying that it might actually be connected is that I
go back to the Atlanta child murders, missing and murdered
there because bodies were dumped in several different counties, like
right on the edge of a county on well, the
(40:28):
thought at least was that was done purposefully so that
there would be a jurisdictional issue, right, you know, I
feel like it's the kind of thing where it needs
to make you think, but it also needs to make
you not throw anything.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Out exactly one hundred percent with you on that one, Matt,
because we know that there is always a larger context
at play. And again, this is a very highly developed
part of the world. So it's super easy to rent
a car, you know, it's super easy to drive somewhere.
It's not as though these are impassable boundaries, you know.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
For sure, especially if you're dealing with somebody who is
dumping bodies rather than murdering people in specific.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Areas exactly, Yeah, crimes of premeditation rather than perhaps crimes
of opportunity, because crimes of opportunity usually meet with inevitable
panic and regret on the part of the assailant. So
if you, you know, think of a robbery gone wrong,
we'll get to that. But that's incredibly plausible and at
(41:35):
every possible juncture in the larger discourse, the GMP, the
Greater Manchester Police, other law enforcement groups, they have argued
this serial killer theory is unsubstantiated, bunk or as you
put it, rubbish or as Joe Biden would put it, malarkey,
(41:55):
so much so that Jackson got rightly irritated by this.
Can tell We know that he was contacted by the
local law enforcement after he made these statements, these original statements,
and they said we're going to clarify and correct his information.
We're not sure exactly how that went, but we know
(42:16):
afterward the professor, aside from that retraction, was much more
hesitant to speak about this to the press. And we're
on his side here because his words are being twisted, right,
and he's very concerned about that. He's trying to do
the right thing. We know that one of his colleagues,
a criminologist named Elizabeth Yardley, also out of Birmingham City.
(42:39):
She did agree to speak with the BBC and she
pointed out some stuff we've talked about before. She's really
pondering why this pusher theory stays in the public eye
and the zeitgeist despite the consistent and continual objections of
law enforcement. And I know we both saw this. The
first thing she says is there does seem to be
(43:02):
this insatiable appetite for real life serial killers?
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Oh yeah, oh yeah. True crime is so popular. And
if you can turn a series of accidents into a
serial killer story, guess what you can do. You can
sell books and make podcasts and make TV shows and
get stuff on ITV and you know, BBC four or whatever,
(43:28):
and it is just there. It is marketable in a
way that is very different than a series of accidents.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Exactly. Yeah, there's a through line, there's a narrative arc,
there's something bigger at play, and the human brain loves
a pattern, loves to see a pattern, wants things explained.
And to be completely honest, the family members and friends
of people who have been discovered dead in these canals,
(43:55):
they deserve an explanation. They deserve that closure. Secondly, and
this is a point again from Yardly, perhaps most importantly,
they're mysteries surrounding these deaths, there are open questions. Multiple
deaths are still considered unsolved as far as the corner
is concerned, which means we know the person is dead,
(44:18):
but we don't know exactly how they died. And so
long as those cases remain unsolved, speculation is going to thrive.
Add a little spice to that one, to that milange.
We see that there are documented cases of people being
attacked by the canal. Ah, we'll keep it in. What
(44:40):
I mean is being attacked while they are near the canales,
not by the canals themselves.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
It just created such a wonderful picture in my mind,
as you said.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
Yeah, I've seen like a dangerous canal, maybe like in
a corner somehow smoking a cigarette.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
In my mind, the canal is like a big mouth
and it opens just a little wider as somebody's riding
their bike across.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
Ah, which leads us to a specific case.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
Yeah, this is some fuel to the fire. This is
the high octane gas. One of the cases of a
genuine attack, which appears to be a murder attempt, comes
to us from April tenth, twenty eighteen. There's a thirty
four year old man who is unidentified by the press
at this point, and he is attacked. He is on
(45:27):
a bike. He is attacked on his bike. He has
thrown into the Bridgewater Canal. And he said the person
who did this had to be a complete psychopath because
this dude who gets pushed in thrown in, he almost
drowns because he's panicking. His legs are entangled in his
bicycle and as he is trying to get out, he
(45:49):
raises his hands. He has his hands on the precipice.
He is able to pull himself out. He's coming home
from work, he has not been partying. You know, this
is not like some Christmas dinner event with too much schnapps.
He is going to be able to get out. And
then the person who attacks him, described as a white
male between the age of twenty and forty, kicks him
(46:10):
back into the water.
Speaker 4 (46:12):
Yikes.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Yeah, terrify.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
And this particular assailant was able to get away from
the scene. And that was that, right, I mean that's
like there are no leads to chase down some unknown
white male with a very very large age range. Right,
you can't put out an APB on that guy.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
And the description, Yeah, this is this is terrible for
law enforcement and investigators, because the description includes things like
he had a normal haircut.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Yeah, uh oh, that's easy.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
Let me let me do a sketch of that.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
And you know, we're beyond thankful that this person is alive.
The attacker, as she said matt did, eventually sprint away
from the scene as it's described, and this allowed the
victim to crawl back on land. Another important note, the
attacker was not trying to steal anything, Like he didn't
(47:12):
try to push this guy off his bike and take
his bike. He didn't say, you know, you whip out
a knife for a gun and say give me your
iPhone or whatever. Also another important note, this victim in
particular clearly clearly on the wrong end of an attempted murder.
He does not fit that proposed demographic for the gay
(47:35):
slain theory. We know he's a married father of two.
But again, you know, while we're weighing everything out, did
the attacker know that, yeah, well.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yeah, there are a lot of questions there as well.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
This is.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
An unidentified man, both the attacker and the victim, and
we know that people's lives can you know, be complicated,
So there's also like room for maybe there's you know,
I'm just saying a lot of it is not concrete.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
One hundred percent. And I think I agree with you.
That's a really important point. We're not attempting to profile anybody.
We're saying again, you can't leave any stone unturned. You
have a lot that you have to learn. Right, For instance,
was this a crime of opportunity? Was it premeditated? Right?
(48:33):
Did this person decide they were going to hurt someone
and they just picked a target they saw or did
they know? You know, this guy gets off at ten pm,
he goes this way home. I will find him at
Point B you know what I mean. Tough questions, man,
Tough questions, Like you said, The police have yet to
(48:54):
identify or arrest the assailant. They again stress that this is,
in their opinion, an isolated incident. It is not part
of a larger scheme. The police also reject overall the
concept that someone is targeting members of the LGBTQ community.
(49:16):
Other than the fact that they're male, other than the
fact that they've been found in or by water, there's
nothing whatsoever linking these deaths. That's their official conclusion.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
That's correct. That's at least what they say let's take
a quick word from our sponsors and we'll be back
with more on the Manchester Pusher.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
And we have returned, folks. As we've established here, family
members of the deceased tend to not agree with the
explanation or the conclusions of law enforcement they have. Often
family members of the deceased have shared story that seem
to indicate foul play in at least some circumstances. We've
(50:05):
got to go back to the Manchester Evening News. They're
doing great local journalism on this. Journalist John Sheerhoot notes
several accounts from parents, and we talked about a few
of them. But I think maybe to get the human
moment here, you've got to hear what the parents are saying,
(50:26):
because that helps us see the validity in their objections.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Well, yeah, specifically because the parents experienced one thing and
then when the police begin investigating, they've got hard evidence
for what they can prove and they're going that route,
but the parents are saying, yeah, but we experienced something different.
Speaker 4 (50:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
This is a twenty one year old person who in
twenty twelve was found in the Manchester Ship Canal. His
name is David Plunkett. His parents their last experience with
him was a phone call where he is quote screaming
and howling about something. But the police, you know, when
(51:07):
they look at the evidence, when they've got a body
to begin investigating, say oh, this was an accident.
Speaker 3 (51:15):
Yeah, And that's got to be really damaging and hurtful
to hear as a parent when you're saying, look, I
will give you my phone, right, yes, search the information
of the data here. Our child called us. There was
screaming and howling in the background. That's rough man.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, you don't imagine that's something that occurs once you've
fallen into the water. You don't get your phone and
make a phone call from the water.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah. And if you fall into a canal and you
get out and then you call someone, you're probably gonna
mention that on the call. Yeah, I would imagine. Then
we have another case like Nathan Tomlinson who is discovered
in the river irwell, pardon my pronunciation, I R W
E L L. His mother to this day believes the
(52:07):
death is suspicious because her son's coat, phone, wallet, and
believe his passport we're gone. He's reported missing on Christmas.
His body is found two months later, and she is saying,
you know, this could be a robbery gone wrong, right,
which which makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
Oh yeah, it's another one of those instances where it
could be absolutely anything. An accident makes it kind of
go away if it is that, right, But if it's
not that, then this is a lot of police work
that would have to be done.
Speaker 3 (52:46):
Right, right, And we're you know, we're not saying that's
what's happening. We're saying we have to consider that option absolutely.
And I'm doing that because I just had this moment
flash my head where we get a call from like
the chief of the Greater Manchester Police. But I think
we're being very fair.
Speaker 4 (53:07):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
You don't understand this is a lot and I'm just
showing yeah, no, but we don't know the full circumstances
for any of these cases, right, Nobody does, even if
you're following you know, the Manchester Evening News daily, and
even if you go back in time and it's twenty twelve,
twenty thirteen and you're trying to understand what's happening, we
(53:29):
don't know outside of the official investigation that doesn't get leaked.
You don't hear the official details of that stuff, right,
Because there's always the potential that somebody knows details that
nobody else knows if there is an assailant of some form, right,
and if not, if there's no official investigation, then there's
(53:50):
no record of any of the stuff that you might want,
like the cell phone records.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
Right, Yeah, that's one of the questions too. Again, this
is such a heavily surveiled the world. What about cell
phone tracking? What about closed circuit television CCTV. It's everywhere
in the United Kingdom, and this means that it's fairly
common for investigators to find CCTV footage of people who
(54:17):
are later discovered dead in a canal, maybe on the
night of their disappearance, maybe on the night of their
confirmed death.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
It does feel like it does feel like you could
track somebody leaving a bar, right specifically, like those areas
where there would be a pub, there's gonna be cameras
all over there and along the you know, the official
canal ways, my god, of course, there's cameras all over
the businesses there, and then official ones probably for the
(54:44):
city or for you know, I'm assuming the for the city.
It feels like you could track somebody's movements all the way.
Speaker 3 (54:53):
Yeah, it feels like it could be as simple as
person A is walking by you know store B. So
we have the footage of them walking by. They continue
down the street or down the you know, the pathway
along the canal, and there's another shop, nightclub, a venue
or something, even if they're not open, they have security
cameras on. So then you could just sort of trace
(55:16):
it from point to point, from A to Z.
Speaker 4 (55:19):
Yeah, it is crazy because you don't. You don't.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
We're so used to watching police procedurals and you know,
heavily fictionalized versions of that thing. But there would be
individual officers, probably two, that would have to travel to
a location, get the CCTV footage of that private business,
corroborate that with the you know, public cameras, corroborate that
(55:44):
with the stories and the timelines, then make phone calls
and maybe even take trips to someplace and get all
of that other documentation of like the phone records. And
you just imagine the time involved in a single accidental
death and or homicide, right one victim. That is so
many hours really really, I mean just an effort.
Speaker 3 (56:08):
And these folks are often underfunded, right, they often don't
have the resources that they would ideally receive. And add
to this the bureaucracy, because every you're not a criminal,
so every step you bake has to be clean. You
have to get approval for the phone records, you have
(56:28):
to have a little bit of paperwork to get the
television footage, the CCTV footage. That's the reason why your
pals Bet and Mad over here can't just stroll into
a Dave and Busters and try to crack down on them.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (56:47):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (56:49):
I mean we can't go to We've got a lot
of juice at David Busters. But you and I cannot
walk in there and say, all right, you know, flash
the inside of the coat and say give us give
us the footage from Thursday.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
Oh man, that would be a cool superpower, though.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
I bet you and I are nice enough dudes that
I bet we could talk someone into it. We could
roll for charisma instead of intimidation. I think that would
be our only way.
Speaker 4 (57:16):
Oh that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
Hey, I want to put something here as like an
easter egg that only people who've listened this far in
this episode will ever hear. But maybe one day it'll
be used in investigation. For me, I have cameras all
over my house because we've been sponsored by camera things
before in the past, and they're all in the outside
of my house and they run twenty four to seven
if there's any movement. So and the way it functions
(57:39):
with the service, there are thirty days of movements they
get recorded, so if I ever go missing or anything happens,
there's gonna be thirty days that can be studied by
law enforcement, just to see who came, who went, and all.
Speaker 4 (57:55):
That good stuff.
Speaker 3 (57:56):
I hope it never comes to that, but it is
smart to have that. Do you have do you have
like an app for it?
Speaker 5 (58:02):
There's an app for that smart.
Speaker 3 (58:05):
I think that's how most of them work now, and
it really is a good idea. Less we sound paranoid,
it's good to have that kind of monitoring capability for
your own domicile. We're also huge fans of everyone having
cameras on your car. Not to not like a creepy
(58:25):
insurance thing. Not not so the insurance company can watch
you driving, but something looking out your front windshield, looking
out the rear view uh, so that you don't end
up in a he said, She said, situation.
Speaker 4 (58:39):
Of real talk.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
Do you have that, because I need I need some
advice on what system to get.
Speaker 3 (58:43):
I've got one actually that I am. I got a
new one that I'm putting in that's not not super
duper fancy. I don't want it connected to anything more
than it needs to be connected to just.
Speaker 4 (58:56):
Do its thing.
Speaker 3 (58:58):
I like that.
Speaker 4 (58:58):
All right, well, let's talk.
Speaker 3 (59:00):
We'll talk after, but folks, please, and you know what,
let's open the floor. Fellow conspiracy realist, recommend your your
pick for a car camera. Again, we're not we're not
being sinister or creepy. There is a moment where you
could help other people, right, you might witness an accident
that you're not involved in anyway.
Speaker 2 (59:21):
Okay, Tennessee pal just linked us to a mirror dash
cam that has a rear view mirror and smart driving assistant,
all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 3 (59:30):
Oh man, all right, thank you?
Speaker 5 (59:34):
Cool?
Speaker 3 (59:34):
What a mention? What a route of Bega is? So
for with this, that's a weird inside joke for us.
So h this is where we get to one of
the bag of Badger's situations, the real pickle. With all
of this footage and all of this excellent investigation by
law enforcement and by filmmakers right, and by family members too.
(59:59):
No single assailant has been documented or identified as of yet,
meaning the mystery of the canal deaths remain. And we
do want to give a tip of the cap again
to Professor Jackson who as a very brief moment where
I feel like an interviewer is sort of pushing him
(01:00:20):
on some things, and he notes that it seems there
was one individual questioned, but nothing came of it, no
charges were filed. There is at this point to law enforcement,
there is no such thing as a Manchester pusher. So
we got to go to counter theories. Dave Wilson, head
(01:00:41):
of the Manchester Water Safety Partnership. He is one of
the guys that often gets quoted sharing a theory that
we all find unfortunately quite plausible. Alcohol related deaths. A
lot of these occur in or around nightclub areas. Nightclub neighborhoods,
(01:01:03):
bars and restaurants love the canals. They line the canals.
This is prime real estate. It's a scenic view, you
know what I mean. If you're going to choose between
one place or another, why not go to the place
with a patio and a nice little view of the water.
Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Well, yeah, and if there are other night spots around,
then yeah, people are going to be hanging out walking
and they might show up in your establishment. So absolutely
that's where you put your nightclub. It's just by that,
you know, kind of scary precipice if it goes down
into the water.
Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
Yeah, and now fast forward, it's a night of partying,
hanging with some loved ones, some old friends. You might
be celebrating a holiday like New Year's or Christmas. You've
had a lot right of whatever your visive choice is.
You are walking home, maybe unsteadily in the dark. Let's
say the weather is poorish. It is possible for you
(01:02:00):
to slip and fall, maybe hit your head. Maybe you're
not able to remove yourself safely. And because this might
happen very late at night, there's no one around to
help you. This is totally possible. But a lot of
family and friends of people who have been found in
the canals, they don't say this is a satisfying explanation.
(01:02:20):
In fact, some will allege, as we alluded to, a
cover up may be a foot that, like you were saying,
met that police might conspire in some way to downplay
problems or to push for alternative explanations like accidents, suicide,
all isolated cases, partially to save face maybe, and then
(01:02:40):
partially to quell public panic, because dude, you know this
from all the other research we've done, law enforcement has
to be very very careful about any statement regarding a
possible serial murderer. You can inspire copycat crimes. You will
get tons of very weird fake leads.
Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Oh yeah, that's that's a major problem. When you know
what you could do. You could just put barriers up
along the whole thing, with cameras along all the barriers.
There you go, problem solved, and you only need one
billion dollars.
Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Right, one billion pounds, which used to be a lot
of money back back in earlier days. Now it feels
like there's a billionaire around every corner. Also, you make
this excellent point, and it's intensely frustrating. We can only
imagine to a lot of people, why would you not
have barriers? What good fences make good neighbors. Robert Frost
(01:03:45):
was right about that. There was a petition signed by
ninety seven thousand people, almost one hundred thousand people to
get some barriers installed, not even along the entirety of canals,
but along certain higher trafficked areas, and it makes sense.
It also just candidly seems like an infrastructure thing that
(01:04:06):
should have been done way long ago.
Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Yeah, well, and that petitions from twenty eighteen. So there's
spend some time if you're out there in Manchester, because
we don't have, you know, official imagery of all the
canal areas if you're not a.
Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
Dave and Busters. We don't have the reach, not yet.
Speaker 4 (01:04:24):
But well maybe there is, what if there.
Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
Is, Yeah, we have to check. Hey, we'll keep it
all this in in the United Kingdom, just to check
the facts are important. There is a Dave Ibusters in London.
Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Okay, well we need a Manchester location then we'll be
able to know just how many barriers have been installed.
Speaker 4 (01:04:46):
But if you're from there, let us know.
Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
I was just checking there are arcade sites in Manchester London.
Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
Oh well, you know there might be tunnel systems.
Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
We'll have to check.
Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
We'll have to do some digging and and moving on.
There is another disturbing possibility. At least some of these
deaths could be deemed suicide. However, as multiple documentaries point out.
Now as Vice points out, and some of their articles
on this. Currently, it's estimated that of people who choose
(01:05:18):
to take their own lives a poultry, four percent choose
to do so by drowning, and drowning is a very
scary way to go, you know what I mean. So
it's not as fast nor as dependable as some other methods.
Often people who are choosing to take their own lives
(01:05:39):
may leave a note or some sort of message to
the world. We're not seeing that happening. Given those facts,
it's safe for us to conclude that suicide is an
increasingly implausible explanation. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Yeah, you know, something we haven't even talked about is
how cold it gets in the area, and when it
does get really cold, some of the canals freeze over,
and just the dangers that that poses. I didn't even
consider that until I looked at the image that came
up when you it's this change dot org petition we
(01:06:16):
were talking about, or they're showing part of the canal
frozen over, but not all of it is. But if
you fell in in a part that was not frozen over,
and you were, you know, pushed underneath some of that ice,
just how horrifying and possibly life ending that would be.
Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
And you're incapacitated or you're panicking and you're trying to
find the you know, the entry point where you came
through that It sounds simple if you're listening in a
safe place right now, but when you're in the moment,
it's very easy to panic, and people do die that way. Yeah,
(01:06:54):
dark stuff. And there's also the possibility that murders may
have occurred in isolated incidents, but they might not have
been intentional murder. It might have been more like what
we will call manslaughter here in the United States, a
robbery gone wrong, or even I hate to say this,
but people can be knuckleheads, even something as stupid as
(01:07:16):
a cruel prank. Think about it. You know, I was
thinking about this earlier. If we're hanging out, we would
never do this because we're not jerks. But if we
were all hanging out with buddies, you know, it's it's you, Matt,
it's me, it's Dylan, it's Noel, it's you, fellow conspiracy realist,
and we're partying or whatever, and we're getting a little rowdy,
(01:07:37):
and then someone pushes someone jokingly into a canal and
then they fall in and stuff goes horribly wrong. How
many people listening tonight would come forward and say that
they accidentally killed someone.
Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
Oh geez, I didn't consider that.
Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Uh yeah, because we don't hang out like that. We're
actually really nice people.
Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Oh yeah, well, I'm trying to put myself, you know,
in my sixteen eighteen year old shoes or something about
just trying to have a laugh and then something going
wrong and then your whole life is over.
Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
If you go to the police, exactly right, it's and
tell us what you would do, folks, and if you're comfortable,
tell us what you did do in that situation something
like that has occurred to you. We hope that is
not the case, but things do happen. And then we
also see documentaries. Right. Sometimes these theories will spring up
(01:08:32):
in true crime forums and then they'll kind of go
away outside of a niche group of people who are
interested or believe in it. But sometimes they get revived.
In twenty sixteen, a documentary named Manchester's Serial Killer by
Darren Lavelle dove into these allegations and then brought the
story back to the global zeitgeist. They aired it Let's
(01:08:56):
see what we say twenty sixteen, and then from what
I stand A few years later, in twenty eighteen, Channel
four in the UK airs the documentary again and police
know that it's going to be aired again, so they
they try to get in front of controversy and they
air their own video response on YouTube preemptively, wherein they
(01:09:21):
again emphasize they have found no evidence to link the victims,
let alone support the idea of a serial killer. It
doesn't work. Really. It seems like the majority of the
public is not saying, Okay, they've solved it. I agree,
they have a lot of questions still.
Speaker 4 (01:09:37):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
You can look at the work of another writer named
Thomas Sheridan that has been quoted a bunch of times,
specifically in the Manchester Evening News and Metro dot co
dot UK. He was, you know, just trying to put
forward this concept that potentially there's a killer. And this
is back like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, right around the
(01:10:00):
time of that documentary's first airing.
Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
Yeah, and there are other documentaries that follow. There are
varying levels of detail. Some are arguing for the killer
theory pretty hard. Some are just seem to be debunking it,
you know, And this involves retired detectives like Tony Blockley.
This all these documentaries also are often made with the
(01:10:24):
support and participation of victims, friends and family, So just
just to be clear, this is often not a matter
of exploitation. It is people trying to find answers, and
the mythology continues to grow. We checked in as we
were coming to record this evening with you folks, and
(01:10:44):
right now there are an estimated around eighty six total
deaths in the Canal that proponents of the pusher theory
will cite as examples. No one's arguing really that these
are all due to homicide, or that they're all due
to a serial murderer, but a lot of people are
convinced that some of the deaths are the work of
(01:11:06):
a killer. Yeap.
Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
I've got a quick thing here from the Royal Society
for the Prevention of Accidents, which again, wow, that's yeah,
and it sounds very hot fuzz to me.
Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
That's crazy, what a cool job.
Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
This is what they state, and this is back in
twenty fifteen. In January they stated there are around two
hundred and sixty inland drowning deaths in the United Kingdom
each year, So two hundred and sixty each year and
the rate of deaths is around four times higher in
areas with a high frequency of rivers and canals. Okay,
(01:11:45):
so they're just trying to give some kind of baseline
for the number of deaths that occur each year.
Speaker 4 (01:11:50):
And we said before the.
Speaker 2 (01:11:52):
Sixty one deaths that are kind of lumped in most
of the time with the Manchester pusher are from twenty
eight to twenty fourteen, right, So like that's that's quite
a few deaths, right, But that's also over a bunch
of years, and Manchester is one of those places that
have that has a high number of canals and rivers.
Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
I guess somebody would have to go through and do
statistical analysis to know, like is it that much higher
or is it about the same?
Speaker 3 (01:12:21):
Right? Yeah, once you adjust for the variables, it would
also be it should you choose to embark upon this endeavor, folks,
We've got your back. We think it would also be interesting,
if not critical, to correlate time time of year. Right,
So are more people dying during the holidays or more
(01:12:43):
people dying when the weather is less friendly?
Speaker 4 (01:12:46):
Yeah? Exactly, I didn't even think I has been. There
are a couple other.
Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Statistics that do kind of They actually go directly to
the heart of this case. They say around twenty percent
of drowning deaths involve people falling into waterways, so like
falling in fifteen percent of those who have died had
been drinking alcohol at the time that they fell into
the canal. And they also found that quote, the rate
(01:13:10):
of deaths among men is around four times higher than
women in these cases of drowning.
Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
I see, yeah, and this yeah, please, this is needful context.
We'd love to hear your conclusions. Folks. We know that
right now, multiple deaths in these canals in Greater Manchester
remain officially unsolved. Police have always maintained a serial killer
theory is false, and they say that the statements of
this one scholar, taken out of context, gave rise to
(01:13:40):
a massive wave of internet speculation with no real supporting evidence.
But people want answers more than that. People deserve answers.
So if you live in the Manchester area, or if
you've spent time there, we want to hear from you
in your experience. Do people in the community put any
creed to this theory? What do you think? Do you
(01:14:02):
find it plausible? Do you think it's bunk or do
you like so many genuinely believe there's something the police
don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
Are you the Danny Butterman out there, son of Inspector
Frank Butterman.
Speaker 3 (01:14:20):
It's a great accent. Well do and folks again, we
invite you to join us here. We want to share
your stories and your takes with our fellow listeners. You
can find us on Instagram, you can find us on YouTube,
you can find us on x all the places, all
the nets, and all the ents net nets. We'll keep it.
(01:14:43):
We'll keep it. If you don't want to sip the
social needs, we totally get it. Go ahead and give
us a phone call.
Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Our number is one eight to three three st d
wyt K. It is a voicemail system. When you call in,
you've got three minutes. Please give yourself a cool nickname.
Let us know in the message if we can use
your name and message on the air. If you've got
more to say than can fit in that message. Maybe
you've got links, maybe you've got pictures. Why not send
us an email.
Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet I'm afraid. Sometimes the
void writes back, Send us the pictures, send us the links,
Let us know if we need to protect your anonymity.
Let us know if a message is for the wider
group of us here on the show, or if it's
(01:15:30):
something that you just want to keep between us. We
can't wait to hear from you. Step a little further
from the light, Join us out here in the dark
conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
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