March 12, 2025 • 55 mins
Astrology! To true believers, this genre of divination provides deep inside to the secret mechanicisms of the Heavens and the Earth. To skeptics, it's bunk -- another mistaken set of beliefs best left to benighted empires of old. And yet, as Ben, Matt and Noel discover in the first part of this special two-part series, astrology still can play a massive role in the modern world. In Chapter One, the guys explore the origins of astrology before traveling to Myanmar, where multiple rulers made extreme decisions based on what they believed was guidance from the stars.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Mit,
my name is Noman.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. And a quick question,
fellow conspiracy realist, what's your sign?
Speaker 4 (00:46):
You're flirting with me?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I'm always always negotiating. We're doing it. We're doing it tonight,
folks look at us a pride of Leo's as Western
astrology says doing believe it or not? An astrology episode
now for a lot of us in the crowd tonight.
When you hear the word astrology, it instantly conjures up
images of Western astrology. So maybe we make some space.
(01:12):
Do you guys want to talk about your own experiences
with astrology? Do you have any meaningful ones.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
Well being that we're all Leo's. Ben, didn't you pull
a horoscope for the three of us?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yes, we are recorded on February twenty eight, twenty twenty five,
as the current calendar reckons and our horoscope for us
now not counting Tennessee Pal Dylan aka the Rudebega King,
Lord of the Rude Vegas. From a listener mail segment earlier.
Dylan is a Virgo. If you are Leo, here's what
(01:44):
astrology dot Com says about you. Do you want to
do it?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Matt?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Don't feel discouraged if your efforts go unnoticed for now,
dearest Leo. As the Pisces moon aspects Mars and Saturn,
trust that movement from behind the scenes will get you
where you want to be. Continuing your work from the.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Shadows, no comment.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
A burst of energy could propel you into the spotlight
when Luna aligns with Ranism. Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry
going that afternoon, So be prepared to dazzle and or
razzle with your eyed at that part, with your wisdom
and practical work.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Ethic themes around commitment come into view when Mercury and
the nodes of Fate activate tonight. Okay, use this energy
to reflect upon or discuss your hopes and dreams before
heading to bed.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
Guys, what are the nodes of fate and how do
they activate? And do they only activate at night or
as this said, you know, all day, all night kind
of thing.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
It's kind of like a nipple situation metaphysically. It can
activate it anytime. That sound good with the proper stimulat.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Okay, guys, this his home so hard, all of this stuff.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Oh my god, A shadowy figure, Matt.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I'm doing all that work from behind in the shadows.
Speaker 5 (03:03):
A lot of thrust, trusting, trusting, trust that movements.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I don't take notes, so.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Do you take notes? Notes?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Right? So you could tell we're all excited to be
back together. You may have read your own horoscope recently.
This is publishing in March, in early March. It's February
as we record this, the very last day of February,
and we have been talking on and offline, hanging out
(03:35):
or on air about the many beliefs of astrology. There
are tons of belief systems oriented toward figuring out the
passage of humanity through interpretations of the stars, finding meaning, context, destiny.
Some people dismiss this entirely. Fellow skeptics in the crowd,
(03:58):
we totally get it. We're talking with our pal our
complaint department, guy Jonathan Strickland, who is available whenever you
have a problem with an episode Jonathan Strickland at iHeartMedia
dot com. Please don't hesitate to contact him multiple times.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
He loves it, he thrives on it.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Honestly, he's all about it. He is perhaps more skeptical
than some others.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
What was the question you put to him?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Then?
Speaker 5 (04:24):
It was like, do you put how much credence do
you put into this?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
And I believe he responded with none whatsoever?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yes, so right to him and other people. As we know,
in your personal life as well, fellow listeners, you may
be a person who encounters astrology through one system or
another as the primary guiding force in your day to
day life. Or you may, like Jonathan or Matt Ornoll
(04:52):
or Dylan or myself, you may have a close friend
who very much follows the guidance of that stars as
they see it. But our question tonight is how much
credence do people put in these systems? How far does
belief in and practice of astrology go in the modern day?
Speaker 5 (05:11):
If you're Jonathan Strickland, none whatsoever credence. But you know
results may vary, as you will find out today, and
the government also has something to say about these things.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
That's right tonight. We are exploring a phenomena that may
surprise a lot of our fellow conspiracy realists. The times
that modern governments looked to astrology for some serious decisions.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Take a quick word from our sponsor and jump right
into it.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Here are the facts, all right, Let's put on our
house stuff works hats and just talk about astrology a bit.
What's going on here.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
It's looking at the stars and the planets and saying,
there is significance there in one way or another, especially
the time that you were born, like time of day
you were born, and the time of year you were born,
specifically the month in the day. And it is observing
things that happen in the sky and correlating them to
(06:19):
what occurs on.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Earth, incorporating latitude and longitude as human civilization wins on.
And then perhaps the primary defining factor of divination and
astrology in particular is it's classic human. It's looking at
the passage of the universe, the beautiful universe, and saying,
(06:41):
does how can I make this about me?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
So human?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I think it comes from that deep thing that
consciousness needs, and that is to be able to somehow
see a little bit further than your eyes can.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
And meaning in it all find some sort of connection
to something larger than ourselves and outside.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Of ourselves, to recognize patterns and to leverage those patterns
towards some sort of deeper understanding or situational advantage. Astrology
is a subgenre of divination. There's so many types of divination.
In the notes here, we have a couple that we
(07:26):
wanted to shout out. Guys, have you heard of bibliomancy.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
Some kind of some kind of sorcery involving glossary perhaps
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Tell me using a random book, turning to a passage.
This one is about zoo animals and giant pandas that
I'm holding up here and then turning to random passages
for divination. There's one Noel will love augury a U
g U r y, which is predicting the future by
observing birds. And I will defend this one because I
(08:00):
do think there's some solid.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
Scards are tuned in pretty hardcore to all kinds of
things that we cannot perceive.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Wait, wait, does somebody can we do a quick bibliomancy.
Let's ask a question in there, bibliomants.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Sure, sure, does everybody have a book?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I no, Well, we just need one use the zoo
one one yes?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Or do you want to use a North Korea one?
I got? They got too many books? Deers choice?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Too many?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
All right? Too many books? All right? So how about this, guys,
I have a stack right next to me. I'll run
my right pointer finger up and down the stack. You guys,
say when starting now?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
When?
Speaker 5 (08:41):
All right?
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Okay, so we are Oh, this is a pretty good one.
The Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry. All right, so what
let's let's determine our intention and ask our question. You guys,
choose question?
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yeah, Matt, please you you do this one.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
The question.
Speaker 6 (09:02):
The question is playing with playing with pages.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
I want to ask something about starlink because there's interesting
stuff going on with that, because it's connected, you know,
to the stars as well in some way. M Will
we all be using starlink as our primary internet at
some point in the future.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Will we all be using starlink Internet at some point
in the future? Okay, Noel, let's make it collaborative. I'm
suscerusing the pages. Say when oh m hmm, okay, I'm
running my finger up and down.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Don't look at it, just.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Say when.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
What here we go?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
And politics has no landscape. The Silesia scene crops out
in prospects felt as deeply as any of these, with
as much or as little reason. This is from Barnsley
and District by Donald Davey, page ten fifty five.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Wait read that first sound. Please give it to us
without politics.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
That's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
And politics has no landscape. The Salian scene crops out
in prospects felt as deeply as any of these, with
as much or as little reason.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Now sounds like that's going to happen by necessity.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
It does. I think you're right. So, but we can
see here just with that one example, right, we did
that on the fly for reel and it if the
way that was read. There was a lot of words there, right,
There was a lot of meaning that you could pull
out of those words. But the first thing appears to
apply in some abstract way to the question that was asked.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
To the pattern we had primed ourselves to interpret.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
Can I can I just say that on the very
long flight that I just got back from, on the
way to that destination. Starlink was the onboard internet being used,
and I had never experienced it before, and it was
blazing fast. I can make video calls from forty thousand
feet and on the way back it.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Was something else.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
It wasn't starlink for whatever reason, I don't have to
do it has to do with the route or what.
And it was terrible. But I was very impressed with Starling.
I don't wan't to give Elon Musk a lot of props,
but pretty impressed with that technology.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
And there are other forms of divination too, right, there's
interpreting patterns and tea leaves. That's passiography. I just learned
the word for that.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
That was a big one in the White House for
a minute, and maybe we'll get into that. I know
one first lady at least had her tea leaves red
quite often.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Not a euphemism, And noel I don't want to. I
don't want to sound dismissive of what you're saying with starlink,
because we were on the same flights, the uh, the
same thing. So yeah, I think it's very fair of
you to give credit where it's due. Also, while we're
doing that, Elon Musk did not create, of course, not like.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
He didn't create them just about anything that his name.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
But what about direct TV?
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Is that even in play I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
It wasn't that a service that was like, oh my gosh,
I can get my television from the sky.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Satellite stuff.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
For sure, there was a moment for satellite TV. Maybe
it still applies in some regions, but seems to which
is why fluster around here, why everybody should re listen
to that Counting Crows album about satellites.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
What was it called something the satellites?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (12:41):
No, no, what's the word? What what are we doing
to the satellite? What were the Counting Crows doing to
the satellites?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Recovery?
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Isn't it recovering the satellite? Maybe?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Maybe it's maybe that's it? So, uh, you're probably correct.
Another this is interesting another form of divination, phrenologynology, A little.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Bit problem real problematic.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
Is that the head heads, it's the head and folks
used to use it to very significantly other you know,
races that were not what was considered the Master Race.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
To justify slat chats. Yeah, yeah, that was their big.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
One, and like man versus woman type stuff as well, Right,
I remember all that.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Or to also oppress uh oppress lungeons, because we've all
got that weird bump in the back of our.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Head and other indigenous people for sure, I mean.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Pretty way way more other people. Yeah, that's that, that
should be the focus here. We also know that divination.
When you think of the concept, it sounds like something
from a dusty scroll or a history book. But again,
shout out to our complaint department and shout out to
our skeptics in the crowd. Let's remember us conspiracy realist
(14:00):
before we get to uh on too high of a
of a horse or.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Hedgehog, not a hedgehog round groundhog.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
The United States has an annual day dedicated to predicting
the weather based on the actions of a specific roundhog.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
Is this still called pusatani Phil?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Or is that just in the movie? That's that's the thing.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
It's it's it's Phil, But it's filled the way that
any airplane the US president is on is automatically Air.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Force one or shik Muhammad it's like something you you
get into.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
Right or Uga the Uga University of Georgia bulldog that
they just keep naming it, and I think adding a number,
but it's it's always.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Uga or like the pope hasn't been the same pope
the whole time.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
True, Oh jeez, yeah the news Yeah yeah, yeah, we'll see,
we'll see how that ages.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
And also we don't want people to die.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
So as divination methods go, astrology is certain the most
mainstream that has really caught on and become a huge
part of pop culture. I mean you can go to
like Spencer at the mall and uh, you know, right
next to the uh the naughty toys and edible underwear,
you know, and horror movie posters, you can find tapestries
(15:19):
of astrological symbols and you know, certain kinds of maps
that are used for this very purpose.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, for years and years and years and years, the
main publications, like newspapers in this country had horoscopes. Like
every time they put out something, there was a horoscope in.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
There, great drum as you know, you couldn't see it.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
When you know, you know, also, uh, Matt Nol, I
think you guys, you guys are already aware. But uh,
one one interesting gig I had for a while was
writing horoscopes.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
For yeah, take a newspaper.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Yeah, And I was hired because I wanted to write
features about things that I thought more people should learn.
The editor said no. They asked me if I believed
in horoscopes. I said no, and they said all about hired.
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Did you consult with any kind of literature when you
would make your horoscopes?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Or absolutely?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Okay, okay, cool?
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
I talked with some folks who are considered experts in
Western astrology, and also pulled some contacts for non Western astrology.
And then you know, you have to to mass point,
you have to make it approachable, generally positive. We'll talk
(16:45):
about this, But I love the I love the idea
of I think it's important for us to acknowledge. The
reason astrology remains the most popular form of divination in
the in the modern West is because it is the
continuation of a trend. The technology you need to encounter
(17:07):
or navigate or interrogate astrology is very simple. You need
eyes to see, and you need to leverage the concept
of a story.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
It's accessible though, too, because wherever you are in the world,
you got eyes on the skies. You know, it might
look a little different depending on what kind of constellations
are visible, and depending on your level of light pollution
or lack thereof. But that is a very human commonality
and it doesn't really require much improvisation in terms of
like finding another thing like bones or tea leaves or
(17:38):
what have you.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
It's right there, right right.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
You need very little equipment, You need the original technology
of the humans, which is story, and then you just
need to observe a thing that is constant to Prince
and Popper alike, the constellations. It also shout out to
pop culture. There's a very beautiful song about looking at
the same star from Worlds Away.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Uh that five somewhere out there.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Light?
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Yeah, what a what a bummer of a film.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
All those Blue Company animations were really really sad but awesome.
I really love the Secretive name personally, but grew up
with that song and it gets stuck in my head.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Out of the clear blue Sky just every now and again.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
But that whole family has problems. I've heard, yes, yes, Spoilersmily.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
Arrested, development arrested.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah yeah, but you can watch the you can watch
the chaos and kay of that family in an excellent documentary.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
Series from Ron Howard. Yes, no, actually he was just
the narrator. I forget the guy's name.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
What's Hurwitz? Mitch Herwitz?
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Sorry, carry on credit where it's due. Yeah, great point, Noel.
So for most people in the secular West, we would
call them casual in husiast of Horoscope's astrology. I want
to read the column. Tell me not about necessarily the
future of the world, right, like Empires of old, but
tell me about myself, right, make the universe about me,
(19:13):
and astrology therefore becomes a sort of psychological tool, a diagnostic.
It's less about the future, it's more about understanding the
hidden depths of one's own personality. But this was not
always the case. Like every serious scientific endeavor in the
modern day, this concept was intertwined inextricably with the concept
(19:39):
of astronomy. So astrology is to astronomy the way alchemy
is to chemistry.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
That's exactly right, Ben, I was thinking the same thing.
There was a time where those worlds were inextricably linked,
and there was magic within science.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Right, they were kind of like cross pursuits.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, it is almost belief intertwined with with the scientific
you know.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Method, just just drive you know, curiosity.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, see that how is science? The why is spirituality?
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
That's how as like to put it.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, you're applying belief to that stuff or you know,
or meaning to the stuff that you're approving with the
scientific method.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, and we know this is a super popular universal pursuit.
If you ask the modern historical boffins, they're going to
tell you that the belief in astrology, or I should say,
the practice of astrology, the big daddy ancestor of it,
begins back in Mesopotamia, and then it spreads to India.
(20:47):
And then we have to also acknowledge that, due to
the length of time, the vast chasm of time we're
interrogating here, it is almost certain that early civilizations and
communities had their own systems of astrology or something we
would call astrology, and they are lost to history.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
What ELSEO just kind of makes a lot of sense
from an early humanity perspective, where it's like this thing
that you can see in the sky would be in
some way linked to your god and the activities of
your god, and I just it's kind of not a
very far leap to.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Make, especially when you see in an agrarian community real
world results, right, the passage of time.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
It makes me think of the dogon tribe in the
series b knowledge that they had that was you know,
recorded way before at least Western society believes they should
have been able to do that.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Right, Yeah, wonderful reference there, Matt. We also have we've
explored that in some previous episodes, and I think a
few videos. Didn't we do a video on this one?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I believe.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
So we're so old, We're not as old as the stars,
but we're getting there. We also know that there was
this strange, circuitous route that ancient astrological beliefs took before
they arrived at your local What should I do today?
As a pisces kind of columns? They started in what
(22:21):
we call modern astrology kind of begins in Greek civilization
during the Hellenistic period, and then it goes to Islamic culture.
And we owe a lot to Islamic culture as modern
civilization is part of the Greek tradition. And only then
does it return to Europe because Europe had, you know,
(22:42):
something called the Dark Ages, and Arabic knowledge bases came
back in.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Right.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
Recently, had a really quick, sadly brief visit to the
Museum of Islamic Culture in Doha, and there's a whole
section devoted to technology around astrology and astronomy, and again
at the time they were pretty inextricably linked, but things
like astrolabes that were used to sort of track the
movement and trajectory of different stars. But wrapped up in
(23:12):
all of that still very much kind of a divine
way of looking at it.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yes, through the gods we arrive at knowledge. What else
would separate the human animal from the rest of the animals.
So yeah, across the ancient world people are looking at stars.
One of the only constants in existence in that these
motions of the heavens. As people didn't think the Earth
was moving, they thought the heavens were moving, and so
(23:39):
the passage of the heavens to them, assuming that they
were in a stationary location, was reproducible, predictable, and had
real world consequence. And at the entire time, this is
happening across all civilizations, no exception. People are imposing their
own concepts and meaning upon the stars, and these interpretations
(24:02):
are often related, Like everybody clocked the North Star doesn't
really move relative to your location, so it's good for navigation,
But in other ways, these systems often disagreed. A lot
of people even now who are casual consumers of the
Western Zodiac think there are twelve sides spoilers. There used
(24:23):
to be thirteen. So this is still very much a
fluid interpretive system. Is that fair to say? Like, I
don't want to throw cold water on.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
It, I think so.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Well, No, listening to Neil deGrasse Tyson's thoughts on astrology,
he's the cold water. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean he'll
hit the facts. Yeah, the facts about that, like the
math of it is all wrong, and it just if
you look at it hard enough, you'll see the major
flaws in like the underlying stuff, you know. I saw
(24:55):
a video the other day on Instagram of somebody. It
showed the spinning right and then as it's orbiting around
the Sun, and then the Sun moving through space basically
because the Sun is traveling extremely fast through space as
we go around it. And then it was showing the galaxy,
our galaxy moving as we are moving with it. And
(25:18):
the comment on the video was like, you're telling me
the same stars have been up there the whole time,
over thousands of thousands of years. As we're traveling through
the universe this fast and we're moving this fast, and
the stars always looked the same. The pushback against that
that you have to realize is that it's all about
scale distance in scalec.
Speaker 5 (25:38):
Yeah, well, it takes us, like, you know, an unmaginable
amount of time to perceive changes that happened long, long,
long ago, right, because of the inherent lag of it,
all right, for the signals the light to try to
you know, move through space. We're seeing something from where
we stand that happened a long, long long time ago.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yes, absolutely, But it's also just the distance between our
viewpoint and where that light is coming from, right. Yes,
So even though we are traveling that fast through the galaxy,
you know, writing our star, basically the perspective doesn't change
that much in proportion because of how dang far away
(26:20):
it is. But it's just one of those things that
you I would need a science teacher to sit down
and like really explain it to me fully to grasp it, right.
But you know, it's just it's just weird that a
video like that could be made and there are probably
a lot of people who watch that and go, oh man,
those stars are bullshit, those aren't real. That's the firmament.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yes, the quintessers. That's a great reference too, and we
understand like what you're saying, Matty, or what Neil de
grass Tyson and other other learned sources in the modern
day are pointing out, if you look at the math,
there are serious quantitative problems with the axioms upon which
(27:00):
most astrological belief systems hinge. That's very diplomatically put again,
we are not going to denigrate someone's personal beliefs, right,
It's kind of what works for you to a certain threshold.
We also need to know everybody was discovering this. Western
astrology reached its own conclusions yet Meso American civilizations, Near
(27:27):
Ese civilizations, the East Asian theater, all of these ancient
communities had their own astrological systems which are still being
practiced today. Astrology, now, if you are looking to explore
or encounter it, you're going to find countless guides, groups, apps, forums,
(27:47):
publications dedicated to general astrology or specific astrology. And as
you have doubtlessly experienced in your own life, fellow conspiracy realist,
astrology can be kind of you mentioned Spencer's earlier. It
could be kind of a hot topic for the dating scene.
Q The sound clip. OMG, you guys, that's so leo
(28:09):
for you to.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
Say thank you.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
So, with some validity, we could assume that astrology today
no longer holds that same you know, divine guidance that
it offered to past civilizations.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
However, we're about to see this assumption could not be
further from the truth.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Que the ad break.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Here's where it gets crazy, all right, we talked about it.
Most mass market horoscope publications these days are pretty positive. Right.
You're not going to open your local paper or for
a lot of us in the crowd tonight, you're not
going to pull up your you know, your general news
app and then see something that says uh uh oh sagittarius. Uh.
(29:00):
You know, stay indoors, don't go outside, beware of hawda odyssees,
and don't trust men in blue hats or something like that.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Yeah, you know, you don't know.
Speaker 5 (29:09):
They're gonna be something vague and generally feel goody or
in some way vaguely actionable, or you know, give you
something to look out for that is gonna turn your
luck around, you know, things like that.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
And this makes sense operationally. These are outlets that want
you to return in the future. And also I would
posit they don't want to be held liable for dangerous
or illegal actions a reader might take after they encounter
a horoscope.
Speaker 5 (29:40):
Yeah, to that point, but I kind of walk back
even what I said. They're not actionable exactly at all.
They're just sort of like giving you some signs to
maybe look out for or just in general, you know,
giving you a positive affirmation that things are looking up
for you, Vigo, right. But they're not saying, go do
the thing, because that's a really good point, Ben. They
(30:01):
don't want to be responsible for anybody misinterpreting that. And
maybe because they are so vague, doing something horrible because
they think that it's telling them to Aquarius.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Sometimes you want to do things and you do them.
Sometimes you want to do things and you don't listen
to the voices, Aquarius.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
You don't need to take accountability for your actions. It
was the stars.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Yeah, sorry, I'm calling out of work because mercury's rising
or in retrograde?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Is that the same thing?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
What's the different retrograde? Sorry, that's a better thing. That's
a better way. And also it sounds like we're we
we're obviously not dismissing this. We consider it a personal
belief system. And in the West, you know, for practitioners
of Western astrology, the first thing you have to point
out is that when we're reading those casual horoscopes, we
(30:51):
are reading twelve light paragraphs based upon what are called
sun signs. Sun signs are just the tip of the
astrological iceberg for a reading.
Speaker 5 (31:04):
But the in depth astrological readings that many true enthusiasts
of this stuff look to pull in so many more
details and factors than the kind of generally vague, feel
goodery of newspaper horoscopes. Things like the location of each planet,
longitude latitude, position of the stars relative to other stars, etc.
(31:29):
There's so many more variables that are included and pulling
from a much larger data set. So you know, because
of that you are going to see more specificity in
these conclusions.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
For better or for worse. More data to draw from
equals more in depth conclusions. And there are tons and
tons and tons of deep read services out there, and
we want to be very honest, please listen closely. The
vast majority of people, institutions, people especially offering deep reed services,
are not trying to grift you. They believe in this.
(32:07):
They are applying their acumen and their expertise and familiarity
to their clients. So they're not trying to, you know,
steal all your money. They are trying to help you.
They honestly believe in what they're doing. And most often
individuals looking for the deeper read of their astrological position,
(32:29):
they will go to another person or a service. And
that's where you see modern astrology getting much closer, leaving
much closer to the practices of ancient times. Specific conclusions,
specific advice, and specific warnings.
Speaker 5 (32:44):
And this is probably outside the scope of this episode,
but if I'm not mistaken, we've got one coming up
on the very topic on Ridiculous History. A lot of
those nine hundred number you know, pay by the minute
astrological reading services that were much more popular in the
late nineties in maybe early two thousands, many of those
have been proven to be less of deep reads than
(33:04):
they are deep deep grifts.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Shout out to the rude dudes on Ridiculous Crime and
they're Misscleo episode by.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
The way, nice, I haven't heard that. I need to
listen to that one for sure. And what we say
modern times, by the way, we're talking eighteen hundreds on
where there are specific people that are, you know, giving
that kind of granular advice based on the knowledge they
pull from the.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
Stars, and you might not read about it in the
news too often because a lot of people in an
increasingly secular world, they kind of want to play it
to the side, the kind of want it, you know,
not to be the headline. And that that cannot be
further from the truth. Right now, as we record, various
(33:50):
powerful people and institutions are still consulting astrologers, and it
is further not uncommon for these wisdom seekers to modify
their real world on Earth actions to comply with to
follow in accordance with the recommendations of their astrologers. Entire
countries have indeed modified their actions based on what they
(34:13):
perceive to be what I think we could call a
conspiracy of constellations. One of the best examples, let's do
two examples if we have time. One of the best
examples is Miandmar, which we talked about recently in depth.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
Yeah, so why don't we start there. Formerly known as Burma,
Myanmar is a Southeast Asian country that is situated between India, China,
and Thailand, and also shares some smaller borders with Bangladesh
and Laos.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yeah, we talked about it very recently with the large
facilities that are being built in this country right across
the border from some of those bordering countries where there's
a bit of a air of lawlessness because of the
deep political issue use in Me and Mar right now,
basically civil war. And when we talked about that, I
(35:08):
don't know, it's weird to me because when we're talking
about Me and Mar in relation to this specifically, are
we talking about like the ruling folks from the government
that were kind of overthrown that still say they're in power.
Are we talking about the folks who are coming in
to take to seize power.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Excellent question. We're talking about everyone, Oh called the meme
from Gary Oldsman. Yeah, you're You're absolutely right, Matt. There's
human trafficking and ongoing civil war, online scam slavery is
what we focused on in one episode. Every kind of
oppression you could imagine, including espionage, ops by foreign governments
(35:49):
and private corporations. Mean R has all of that and more. Currently,
as you pointed out, there are two groups that testify
they rule the land. Longstanding somewhat mercurial military junta and
then a loose coalition of forces purporting to push democracy
(36:10):
look into their funding is all we're going to say there.
It struggles with chaos moves toward democracy that have occurred
in the lifetimes of most of our listeners. They seem
to make headway like Ensong su key, and then abruptly
they're shut down a moment later. Me and mar to
your question there. Matt has always had a deep regard
(36:33):
and respect for divination, astrology, fortune telling, and in particular numerology,
largely based on Buddhist Hindu thought from civilization's past. And
we might casually in the West read our son signs
in the local paper. You might be, you know, swiping
(36:54):
to and fro on a dating app and saying, yeah, classic.
I feel like we're trying to use all those theact science.
What we said, Pisces cancer, Virgo leo Aquarius. What's another one, Sagittarius, Sagittarius.
You might be like, oh, Sagittarius, awesome. This is an
entry point into our conversation. But overwhelmingly in this part
(37:17):
of the world, people will consult for what you would
consider very serious decisions with longstanding consequences not just the public,
but also the people in power, like the generals and
the dictators. Numerous examples of this, like the independence of
Burma is probably the moment it became officially independent, is
(37:40):
almost certainly based on advice from fortune tellers and numerologists.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Really well, the date is January fourth, nineteen forty eight,
at four twenty eight. We understand, we get.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
It, ty ty, I knew you guys were cool.
Speaker 5 (37:59):
This almost certainly a decision that was made by some
very high level advisors practicing astrology, based on interpretations of
that type of numerology you were talking about. Ben former
dictator General Ney Winn was obsessed with numerology.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Oh yeah, this is where astrology touches the money. Oh
this is okay. So if you are increasingly like us,
paranoid and carrying a lot of cash, do us a
favor and pull out your currency of choice. Look at
it and imagine, like if you have a twenty dollars
bill and a five dollar bill and some ones or whatever,
(38:40):
imagine that all the five dollar bills you have were
pulled from currency. Now they're just pieces of paper. Always
a danger with fiat currency philosophy but that's what like
you were mentioning. No, that's what nim Win did. In
nineteen eighty seven, on the advice of his astrologer, he
went to the nation of Burma and said, the denominations
(39:04):
of forty five and ninety kats kyats don't count anymore.
They're not legal tender. And he probably did it. We're
ninety percent certain he made this call because his astrologer
told him that his lucky number was nine, and forty
five and ninety are divisible by nine. The sum of
(39:26):
four plus five, you know, nine, and so on and
so on. The rabbit hole goes deep. So he made
this decision affecting currency for millions of people because his
astrologer was talking to him about numerology. To be fair,
he did live to ninety two. Not bad, not bad
(39:47):
at all, right, so maybe maybe hopefully we get to
ninety two. But then there's we're set saying this to
set up an other example of astrology and government. In
Myanmar in two thousand and two, the military junta hit
the local population and later the rest of the world
(40:09):
with one hell of a Shamalan plot twist.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
Can I just say, if you're looking to find an
entry point into the jam band Fish. They have an
album called Hunta that's pretty great actually, So just just
putting that out there. I'm a fan of the Fish
album Hunta.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Unrelated, isn't There is there another band? Uh with Burma
in their.
Speaker 5 (40:32):
Mission of Burma Okay, kind of a post kind of
post hardcore maybe bands, but they're cool.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
So what happens in two thousand and two?
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Well, a lot, a lot happens in two thousand and two.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
That was really I thought it was only three.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yes, Well, my friends and I we all graduated from
high school. That's true. Days. It is weird to think
about that this happened just in our lifetime, this kind
of thinking all this stuff. It just how modern that
really is.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Wait, you were a junior during nine to eleven.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
I was.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
I was as well.
Speaker 5 (41:17):
I remember seeing the planes hit in real time during
a computer class. We had a computer like a tech class.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Hmm.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
It was sort of the class where everyone just kind
of got to, you know, do whatever.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
So it comes to pass. It's two thousand and two.
A lot of things are happening right as you said,
Matt Over in meandmart the rulers of the country until
they themselves, you know, fall a foul of coups and
so on. They they say they hatch a conspiracy, and
they say, all right, our capital city has been Rangoon
(41:53):
or called Yanggoon for a long time. Here's what's going
to happen. You got two months, everybody, you're gonna move
to our new capital about three hundred clicks north. You're
gonna call it Nipita or not Pita part in our
pronunciations here, and you're gonna do it right now. And
for outsiders and the local population, this made zero sense,
(42:18):
primarily because this new capital that they all had to
move to to sweet it did not exist. There was
no there was a small town, there was no capital.
It was all jungle.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Oh it's like Olympics rules. You just build a whole
new place.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Yes, yes, yeah, it.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Get in there way before it's ready.
Speaker 4 (42:38):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Yeah. And there was secondly another thing. So, okay, we'll
build the plane while we're flying it, right, we'll build
a we'll build a boat while we're on the ocean.
Very dangerous, very terrible for the people who are affected
by this decision. Their second problem is, then this is
something that China and our guys were looking at There's
(42:59):
no stratega advantage to moving this capital, nothing that you
could see operationally. There's no improvement in infrastructure because it
doesn't exist, no improvement in security nor borders doesn't affect
trade routes. There's no like resource extraction perk right meandmar
is famous for emeralds, for instance. It's not like right
(43:21):
next to an awesome emerald mind, none of that. It
is exactly as if someone in the White House in
the US woke up one day and said, you, guys,
I got a weird vibe. We're moving DC to Edison,
New Jersey. If Edison, New Jersey did not already exist.
That's about one hundred and eighty so miles north of
d C.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Good thing, all those marble buildings were, you know, built
on wheels with them with the possibility to just truck
them along the.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Highway, just like disassembly in your ikea furniture. Right. So
also add to this, everybody has to move in two months.
They also say it has to be a secret, so
you can't tell anybody. Imagine you're a public servant in
Yonggun and you get you get your moving papers. You
(44:10):
have to relocate immediately. You have to do it now,
and you cannot take your family with you further. You
can't tell them why you're going or where.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Oh man, yeah, so are we saying somebody got some
kind of bad reading and and like just said, something
bad's gonna happen here. We got to get out now.
Don't tell anybody it's happening. We just can't be here.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Right right, right, it's like a it's like that that
trope in so many Western action movies. Right, you know,
the aliens are coming, only a few people are allowed
into the arc.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
So the news did get public and Foreign Embassy's embarrassingly enough,
our friends in China, they were they were left out
to dry. Well I'm sure, I'm sure they knew a
little bit. They had to see something in the wind.
But the message they got from Meamar was essentially, you
guys don't have to move up with us, but if
(45:12):
you want to keep hanging out, well we're not gonna
come all the way down to you, so make your choice.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
So basically there wasn't a choice.
Speaker 5 (45:20):
Everyone had to move, and as you can imagine, there
was an absolute melee of hectic conversations. Wasn't the best
day to be in the State Department. Ben as you
point out astuteley in this outline.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Yeah, oh guys, the stars are telling me it's time
for an ad break. We'll be right back.
Speaker 4 (45:51):
And we've returned.
Speaker 5 (45:52):
Let's get back into our conversation about astrology and governments.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
All right?
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Why did they do it? Why do they want to
keep it secret? We kid thee not the military. Did
this based on advice from an astrologer, and you can
see it based on the Uh. This very specific timing
of these decisions, like the inauguration of the city itself,
occurs it again, just like independence, it occurs at a
(46:20):
very odd time, like oddly.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Specific November sixth two thousand and five, at six thirty
seven am local time. Why is that specific? Like why
like what what is the significance?
Speaker 3 (46:35):
I mean, why can't why do we have to wait
seven minutes? Why can't we just go at six thirty?
Speaker 4 (46:41):
Did?
Speaker 2 (46:42):
But was it was it purposeful?
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (46:45):
Yes, dude, it was like this is the time that
the thousands of trucks begin, you know, moving as you said,
all the all the marble buildings on wheales.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I'd be interested if they write if they write dates year, month, day, five, one, six,
six three seven. That's interesting.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
And then government workers, the guys we talked about who
had to move in silence, right, Uh. They they depart
from the old capital to the new one on November
eleventh at eleven am. So eleven eleven eleven, regardless of
how you write the.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Date, even I know that number is significant.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Make a wish, right, says every toxic relationship you've ever had.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Oh, mine was check the doors, make sure they're locked.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Okay, oh really, no, sour our buddy.
Speaker 6 (47:47):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Returning guest, General Tan Shui currently alive retired as we record.
He's the guy who made the call, and the story
is his personal astrologer told him he had to do
this these specific times, not just for himself, but because
doing so, moving the capital would save the nation of
(48:09):
Myanmar from a looming disaster.
Speaker 5 (48:12):
It's not to be confused with General Fung Shue, who
had a very similar attitude.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
No, General so over in China who who you know?
People were like, General, We've got a lot of problems,
and he said to hold on taste this.
Speaker 4 (48:26):
Yeahous, yeah it was.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
It's a little known fact that the astrologer of the
General there owned a lot of property where the new capital. No,
I'm just joking that that's not true, but you can imagine.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
It probably got a sweetheart deal. There's this deep What
we're saying is there's a deep, abiding relationship between Myanmar's
government policy and numerology. And there are so many more
examples of this, including including how one day true story
the general astrologer's staff told him that a woman will
(49:04):
one day lead the country, and as a result, we've
linked a picture here in our notes the General and
his entourage dawned traditional women's clothing for a photo. Op. Okay, yeah,
try to loophole it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
I know, I know, I'm watching you guys. Look at
the picture. It definitely look bad.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
No, it's just like, yeah, it looks like a skirt
of some sort.
Speaker 3 (49:35):
But just like I think it's called a lungee. But
just like the guy who changed the currency to extend
his lifespan and then later lived to ninety two. True
believers in astrological systems here will argue that the predictions
of the heavens came to pass because in two thousand
(49:57):
and eight, Me and Mar experienced the worst natural disaster
in all of its recorded history, and it hit yangun So.
Speaker 5 (50:07):
On May second, two thousand and eight, the tropical cyclone
Nargus made landfall, passing by the old capitol and caused
at least fifteen point three billion US dollars worth of damage,
killed hundreds of thousands of people, an absolute tragedy in
humanitarian crisis, so many in fact, that we still aren't
(50:28):
quite sure what the death toll actually was.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Wow, and it bypassed the new capitol, or didn't touch
the new capital and.
Speaker 3 (50:36):
Touch it didn't touch it. And it also was kind
of a close it was. It was a close scrape
with the old capital, So there was tremendous damage, as
you were saying, old to the infrastructure. Hundreds of thousands
of people did die, but for a lot of people
observing this who survived, this proved that the astrologer had
(50:59):
effected powers to foretell the future, to say the sooth.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Yeah, at least you know, for them, because it's personal
experience that close and yeah, you can see how that
would reinforce the belief for sure.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
And then we can also see how the more skeptical
in the audience would say, look at the geography, look
at the climate, you know, something like this was statistically inevitable.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
Yeah, it's a rough one. I mean, and also, you
know worthy astrologers, correct? Does this depend on your individual perspective?
Are we as Westerner's outhering as we mentioned earlier, and
hey they're hi there, Hello there, folks. Brief pause, We
went offline and consulted our own star chart aka our
(51:47):
publishing buffer. In our schedules.
Speaker 4 (51:50):
It becomes an Excel spreadsheet form.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
Yes, yes, a very mystical Excel spreadsheet. And we are
going to make this a series. We've given a brief
exploration of the history of astrology right the world entire
We've looked at specific instances in the Nation of Mean
Marnie Burma. And when we return in chapter two, we're
(52:14):
taking this closer to home, all the way to the
White House.
Speaker 4 (52:18):
We're going stateside. We're gonna talk a little bit about.
Speaker 5 (52:21):
Reagan, oh yeah, and Reagan exactly, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
And older presidents that you don't remember, like Franklin Pierce.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
I remember, I wasn't impressed, but I remember I don't
use a snap address. We're going to show you that
this practice that we're talking about doesn't doesn't just exist
in lands some may consider far flung. Now again, we
have always endeavored to be I was going to say acknowledged, acknowledgeful,
(52:57):
respectful of and acknowledging of people's personal beliefs and practices.
And we know this may be a divisive topic. A
lot of us in the crowd tonight are hardcore skeptics,
A lot of us are very much true believers, and
we want to hear from all of you. This show
does not exist without you, so thank you so much
(53:17):
for tuning in. Thanks always to our long suffering producers,
Try Force and the Tennessee pal Let us know your
thoughts and join us for chapter two of the Exploration
on astrology and Government. Hey guys, how do I get
in touch with you? We've got good news. You can
find us online. You can send us an email. You
can even tappity tap us on a telephonic device. It's true.
Speaker 5 (53:39):
If you want to find us on the internet, on
your social media platform with choice, you can find us
at the handle conspiracy stuff, where we exist on Facebook
with our Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy, on YouTube,
where we have video content a little for your enjoyment,
and on x nay fka Twitter, on Instagram and TikTok. However,
we are conspiracy stuff show.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
Please don't tap or direct phones. There are plenty of
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number is one eight three three std WYTK. When you
call in, give yourself a cool nickname and let us
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what it is, and use it if you wish. If
(54:21):
you wish to instead, send us links, longer thoughts, maybe
even I don't know a picture of a kitty cat
or a doggie doo or another animal in your life.
We love those. Why not send us an email? We
are the.
Speaker 3 (54:37):
Entities that read every piece of correspondence we receive. We've
actually returned from abroad and are catching up with you
void wise as we return, be well aware, yet I'd
afraid Sometimes the void writes back, Hey is that true?
How can I learn for certain? Well, there's one way,
step a little further from the light. Join us here
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Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Mit,
my name is Noman.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. And a quick question,
fellow conspiracy realist, what's your sign?
Speaker 4 (00:46):
You're flirting with me?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I'm always always negotiating. We're doing it. We're doing it tonight,
folks look at us a pride of Leo's as Western
astrology says doing believe it or not? An astrology episode
now for a lot of us in the crowd tonight.
When you hear the word astrology, it instantly conjures up
images of Western astrology. So maybe we make some space.
(01:12):
Do you guys want to talk about your own experiences
with astrology? Do you have any meaningful ones.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
Well being that we're all Leo's. Ben, didn't you pull
a horoscope for the three of us?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yes, we are recorded on February twenty eight, twenty twenty five,
as the current calendar reckons and our horoscope for us
now not counting Tennessee Pal Dylan aka the Rudebega King,
Lord of the Rude Vegas. From a listener mail segment earlier.
Dylan is a Virgo. If you are Leo, here's what
(01:44):
astrology dot Com says about you. Do you want to
do it?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Matt?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Don't feel discouraged if your efforts go unnoticed for now,
dearest Leo. As the Pisces moon aspects Mars and Saturn,
trust that movement from behind the scenes will get you
where you want to be. Continuing your work from the.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Shadows, no comment.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
A burst of energy could propel you into the spotlight
when Luna aligns with Ranism. Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry
going that afternoon, So be prepared to dazzle and or
razzle with your eyed at that part, with your wisdom
and practical work.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Ethic themes around commitment come into view when Mercury and
the nodes of Fate activate tonight. Okay, use this energy
to reflect upon or discuss your hopes and dreams before
heading to bed.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
Guys, what are the nodes of fate and how do
they activate? And do they only activate at night or
as this said, you know, all day, all night kind
of thing.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
It's kind of like a nipple situation metaphysically. It can
activate it anytime. That sound good with the proper stimulat.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Okay, guys, this his home so hard, all of this stuff.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Oh my god, A shadowy figure, Matt.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I'm doing all that work from behind in the shadows.
Speaker 5 (03:03):
A lot of thrust, trusting, trusting, trust that movements.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I don't take notes, so.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Do you take notes? Notes?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Right? So you could tell we're all excited to be
back together. You may have read your own horoscope recently.
This is publishing in March, in early March. It's February
as we record this, the very last day of February,
and we have been talking on and offline, hanging out
(03:35):
or on air about the many beliefs of astrology. There
are tons of belief systems oriented toward figuring out the
passage of humanity through interpretations of the stars, finding meaning, context, destiny.
Some people dismiss this entirely. Fellow skeptics in the crowd,
(03:58):
we totally get it. We're talking with our pal our
complaint department, guy Jonathan Strickland, who is available whenever you
have a problem with an episode Jonathan Strickland at iHeartMedia
dot com. Please don't hesitate to contact him multiple times.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
He loves it, he thrives on it.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Honestly, he's all about it. He is perhaps more skeptical
than some others.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
What was the question you put to him?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Then?
Speaker 5 (04:24):
It was like, do you put how much credence do
you put into this?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
And I believe he responded with none whatsoever?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yes, so right to him and other people. As we know,
in your personal life as well, fellow listeners, you may
be a person who encounters astrology through one system or
another as the primary guiding force in your day to
day life. Or you may, like Jonathan or Matt Ornoll
(04:52):
or Dylan or myself, you may have a close friend
who very much follows the guidance of that stars as
they see it. But our question tonight is how much
credence do people put in these systems? How far does
belief in and practice of astrology go in the modern day?
Speaker 5 (05:11):
If you're Jonathan Strickland, none whatsoever credence. But you know
results may vary, as you will find out today, and
the government also has something to say about these things.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
That's right tonight. We are exploring a phenomena that may
surprise a lot of our fellow conspiracy realists. The times
that modern governments looked to astrology for some serious decisions.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Take a quick word from our sponsor and jump right
into it.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Here are the facts, all right, Let's put on our
house stuff works hats and just talk about astrology a bit.
What's going on here.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
It's looking at the stars and the planets and saying,
there is significance there in one way or another, especially
the time that you were born, like time of day
you were born, and the time of year you were born,
specifically the month in the day. And it is observing
things that happen in the sky and correlating them to
(06:19):
what occurs on.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Earth, incorporating latitude and longitude as human civilization wins on.
And then perhaps the primary defining factor of divination and
astrology in particular is it's classic human. It's looking at
the passage of the universe, the beautiful universe, and saying,
(06:41):
does how can I make this about me?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
So human?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I think it comes from that deep thing that
consciousness needs, and that is to be able to somehow
see a little bit further than your eyes can.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
And meaning in it all find some sort of connection
to something larger than ourselves and outside.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Of ourselves, to recognize patterns and to leverage those patterns
towards some sort of deeper understanding or situational advantage. Astrology
is a subgenre of divination. There's so many types of divination.
In the notes here, we have a couple that we
(07:26):
wanted to shout out. Guys, have you heard of bibliomancy.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
Some kind of some kind of sorcery involving glossary perhaps
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Tell me using a random book, turning to a passage.
This one is about zoo animals and giant pandas that
I'm holding up here and then turning to random passages
for divination. There's one Noel will love augury a U
g U r y, which is predicting the future by
observing birds. And I will defend this one because I
(08:00):
do think there's some solid.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
Scards are tuned in pretty hardcore to all kinds of
things that we cannot perceive.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Wait, wait, does somebody can we do a quick bibliomancy.
Let's ask a question in there, bibliomants.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Sure, sure, does everybody have a book?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I no, Well, we just need one use the zoo
one one yes?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Or do you want to use a North Korea one?
I got? They got too many books? Deers choice?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Too many?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
All right? Too many books? All right? So how about this, guys,
I have a stack right next to me. I'll run
my right pointer finger up and down the stack. You guys,
say when starting now?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
When?
Speaker 5 (08:41):
All right?
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Okay, so we are Oh, this is a pretty good one.
The Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry. All right, so what
let's let's determine our intention and ask our question. You guys,
choose question?
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yeah, Matt, please you you do this one.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
The question.
Speaker 6 (09:02):
The question is playing with playing with pages.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
I want to ask something about starlink because there's interesting
stuff going on with that, because it's connected, you know,
to the stars as well in some way. M Will
we all be using starlink as our primary internet at
some point in the future.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Will we all be using starlink Internet at some point
in the future? Okay, Noel, let's make it collaborative. I'm
suscerusing the pages. Say when oh m hmm, okay, I'm
running my finger up and down.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Don't look at it, just.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Say when.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
What here we go?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
And politics has no landscape. The Silesia scene crops out
in prospects felt as deeply as any of these, with
as much or as little reason. This is from Barnsley
and District by Donald Davey, page ten fifty five.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Wait read that first sound. Please give it to us
without politics.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
That's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
And politics has no landscape. The Salian scene crops out
in prospects felt as deeply as any of these, with
as much or as little reason.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Now sounds like that's going to happen by necessity.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
It does. I think you're right. So, but we can
see here just with that one example, right, we did
that on the fly for reel and it if the
way that was read. There was a lot of words there, right,
There was a lot of meaning that you could pull
out of those words. But the first thing appears to
apply in some abstract way to the question that was asked.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
To the pattern we had primed ourselves to interpret.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
Can I can I just say that on the very
long flight that I just got back from, on the
way to that destination. Starlink was the onboard internet being used,
and I had never experienced it before, and it was
blazing fast. I can make video calls from forty thousand
feet and on the way back it.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Was something else.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
It wasn't starlink for whatever reason, I don't have to
do it has to do with the route or what.
And it was terrible. But I was very impressed with Starling.
I don't wan't to give Elon Musk a lot of props,
but pretty impressed with that technology.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
And there are other forms of divination too, right, there's
interpreting patterns and tea leaves. That's passiography. I just learned
the word for that.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
That was a big one in the White House for
a minute, and maybe we'll get into that. I know
one first lady at least had her tea leaves red
quite often.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Not a euphemism, And noel I don't want to. I
don't want to sound dismissive of what you're saying with starlink,
because we were on the same flights, the uh, the
same thing. So yeah, I think it's very fair of
you to give credit where it's due. Also, while we're
doing that, Elon Musk did not create, of course, not like.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
He didn't create them just about anything that his name.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
But what about direct TV?
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Is that even in play I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
It wasn't that a service that was like, oh my gosh,
I can get my television from the sky.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Satellite stuff.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
For sure, there was a moment for satellite TV. Maybe
it still applies in some regions, but seems to which
is why fluster around here, why everybody should re listen
to that Counting Crows album about satellites.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
What was it called something the satellites?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (12:41):
No, no, what's the word? What what are we doing
to the satellite? What were the Counting Crows doing to
the satellites?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Recovery?
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Isn't it recovering the satellite? Maybe?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Maybe it's maybe that's it? So, uh, you're probably correct.
Another this is interesting another form of divination, phrenologynology, A little.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Bit problem real problematic.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
Is that the head heads, it's the head and folks
used to use it to very significantly other you know,
races that were not what was considered the Master Race.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
To justify slat chats. Yeah, yeah, that was their big.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
One, and like man versus woman type stuff as well, Right,
I remember all that.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Or to also oppress uh oppress lungeons, because we've all
got that weird bump in the back of our.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Head and other indigenous people for sure, I mean.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Pretty way way more other people. Yeah, that's that, that
should be the focus here. We also know that divination.
When you think of the concept, it sounds like something
from a dusty scroll or a history book. But again,
shout out to our complaint department and shout out to
our skeptics in the crowd. Let's remember us conspiracy realist
(14:00):
before we get to uh on too high of a
of a horse or.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Hedgehog, not a hedgehog round groundhog.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
The United States has an annual day dedicated to predicting
the weather based on the actions of a specific roundhog.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
Is this still called pusatani Phil?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Or is that just in the movie? That's that's the thing.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
It's it's it's Phil, But it's filled the way that
any airplane the US president is on is automatically Air.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Force one or shik Muhammad it's like something you you
get into.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
Right or Uga the Uga University of Georgia bulldog that
they just keep naming it, and I think adding a number,
but it's it's always.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Uga or like the pope hasn't been the same pope
the whole time.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
True, Oh jeez, yeah the news Yeah yeah, yeah, we'll see,
we'll see how that ages.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
And also we don't want people to die.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
So as divination methods go, astrology is certain the most
mainstream that has really caught on and become a huge
part of pop culture. I mean you can go to
like Spencer at the mall and uh, you know, right
next to the uh the naughty toys and edible underwear,
you know, and horror movie posters, you can find tapestries
(15:19):
of astrological symbols and you know, certain kinds of maps
that are used for this very purpose.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, for years and years and years and years, the
main publications, like newspapers in this country had horoscopes. Like
every time they put out something, there was a horoscope in.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
There, great drum as you know, you couldn't see it.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
When you know, you know, also, uh, Matt Nol, I
think you guys, you guys are already aware. But uh,
one one interesting gig I had for a while was
writing horoscopes.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
For yeah, take a newspaper.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Yeah, And I was hired because I wanted to write
features about things that I thought more people should learn.
The editor said no. They asked me if I believed
in horoscopes. I said no, and they said all about hired.
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Did you consult with any kind of literature when you
would make your horoscopes?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Or absolutely?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Okay, okay, cool?
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
I talked with some folks who are considered experts in
Western astrology, and also pulled some contacts for non Western astrology.
And then you know, you have to to mass point,
you have to make it approachable, generally positive. We'll talk
(16:45):
about this, But I love the I love the idea
of I think it's important for us to acknowledge. The
reason astrology remains the most popular form of divination in
the in the modern West is because it is the
continuation of a trend. The technology you need to encounter
(17:07):
or navigate or interrogate astrology is very simple. You need
eyes to see, and you need to leverage the concept
of a story.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
It's accessible though, too, because wherever you are in the world,
you got eyes on the skies. You know, it might
look a little different depending on what kind of constellations
are visible, and depending on your level of light pollution
or lack thereof. But that is a very human commonality
and it doesn't really require much improvisation in terms of
like finding another thing like bones or tea leaves or
(17:38):
what have you.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
It's right there, right right.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
You need very little equipment, You need the original technology
of the humans, which is story, and then you just
need to observe a thing that is constant to Prince
and Popper alike, the constellations. It also shout out to
pop culture. There's a very beautiful song about looking at
the same star from Worlds Away.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Uh that five somewhere out there.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Light?
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Yeah, what a what a bummer of a film.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
All those Blue Company animations were really really sad but awesome.
I really love the Secretive name personally, but grew up
with that song and it gets stuck in my head.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Out of the clear blue Sky just every now and again.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
But that whole family has problems. I've heard, yes, yes, Spoilersmily.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
Arrested, development arrested.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah yeah, but you can watch the you can watch
the chaos and kay of that family in an excellent documentary.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
Series from Ron Howard. Yes, no, actually he was just
the narrator. I forget the guy's name.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
What's Hurwitz? Mitch Herwitz?
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Sorry, carry on credit where it's due. Yeah, great point, Noel.
So for most people in the secular West, we would
call them casual in husiast of Horoscope's astrology. I want
to read the column. Tell me not about necessarily the
future of the world, right, like Empires of old, but
tell me about myself, right, make the universe about me,
(19:13):
and astrology therefore becomes a sort of psychological tool, a diagnostic.
It's less about the future, it's more about understanding the
hidden depths of one's own personality. But this was not
always the case. Like every serious scientific endeavor in the
modern day, this concept was intertwined inextricably with the concept
(19:39):
of astronomy. So astrology is to astronomy the way alchemy
is to chemistry.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
That's exactly right, Ben, I was thinking the same thing.
There was a time where those worlds were inextricably linked,
and there was magic within science.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Right, they were kind of like cross pursuits.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, it is almost belief intertwined with with the scientific
you know.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Method, just just drive you know, curiosity.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, see that how is science? The why is spirituality?
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
That's how as like to put it.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, you're applying belief to that stuff or you know,
or meaning to the stuff that you're approving with the
scientific method.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, and we know this is a super popular universal pursuit.
If you ask the modern historical boffins, they're going to
tell you that the belief in astrology, or I should say,
the practice of astrology, the big daddy ancestor of it,
begins back in Mesopotamia, and then it spreads to India.
(20:47):
And then we have to also acknowledge that, due to
the length of time, the vast chasm of time we're
interrogating here, it is almost certain that early civilizations and
communities had their own systems of astrology or something we
would call astrology, and they are lost to history.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
What ELSEO just kind of makes a lot of sense
from an early humanity perspective, where it's like this thing
that you can see in the sky would be in
some way linked to your god and the activities of
your god, and I just it's kind of not a
very far leap to.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Make, especially when you see in an agrarian community real
world results, right, the passage of time.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
It makes me think of the dogon tribe in the
series b knowledge that they had that was you know,
recorded way before at least Western society believes they should
have been able to do that.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Right, Yeah, wonderful reference there, Matt. We also have we've
explored that in some previous episodes, and I think a
few videos. Didn't we do a video on this one?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I believe.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
So we're so old, We're not as old as the stars,
but we're getting there. We also know that there was
this strange, circuitous route that ancient astrological beliefs took before
they arrived at your local What should I do today?
As a pisces kind of columns? They started in what
(22:21):
we call modern astrology kind of begins in Greek civilization
during the Hellenistic period, and then it goes to Islamic culture.
And we owe a lot to Islamic culture as modern
civilization is part of the Greek tradition. And only then
does it return to Europe because Europe had, you know,
(22:42):
something called the Dark Ages, and Arabic knowledge bases came
back in.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Right.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
Recently, had a really quick, sadly brief visit to the
Museum of Islamic Culture in Doha, and there's a whole
section devoted to technology around astrology and astronomy, and again
at the time they were pretty inextricably linked, but things
like astrolabes that were used to sort of track the
movement and trajectory of different stars. But wrapped up in
(23:12):
all of that still very much kind of a divine
way of looking at it.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yes, through the gods we arrive at knowledge. What else
would separate the human animal from the rest of the animals.
So yeah, across the ancient world people are looking at stars.
One of the only constants in existence in that these
motions of the heavens. As people didn't think the Earth
was moving, they thought the heavens were moving, and so
(23:39):
the passage of the heavens to them, assuming that they
were in a stationary location, was reproducible, predictable, and had
real world consequence. And at the entire time, this is
happening across all civilizations, no exception. People are imposing their
own concepts and meaning upon the stars, and these interpretations
(24:02):
are often related, Like everybody clocked the North Star doesn't
really move relative to your location, so it's good for navigation,
But in other ways, these systems often disagreed. A lot
of people even now who are casual consumers of the
Western Zodiac think there are twelve sides spoilers. There used
(24:23):
to be thirteen. So this is still very much a
fluid interpretive system. Is that fair to say? Like, I
don't want to throw cold water on.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
It, I think so.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Well, No, listening to Neil deGrasse Tyson's thoughts on astrology,
he's the cold water. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean he'll
hit the facts. Yeah, the facts about that, like the
math of it is all wrong, and it just if
you look at it hard enough, you'll see the major
flaws in like the underlying stuff, you know. I saw
(24:55):
a video the other day on Instagram of somebody. It
showed the spinning right and then as it's orbiting around
the Sun, and then the Sun moving through space basically
because the Sun is traveling extremely fast through space as
we go around it. And then it was showing the galaxy,
our galaxy moving as we are moving with it. And
(25:18):
the comment on the video was like, you're telling me
the same stars have been up there the whole time,
over thousands of thousands of years. As we're traveling through
the universe this fast and we're moving this fast, and
the stars always looked the same. The pushback against that
that you have to realize is that it's all about
scale distance in scalec.
Speaker 5 (25:38):
Yeah, well, it takes us, like, you know, an unmaginable
amount of time to perceive changes that happened long, long,
long ago, right, because of the inherent lag of it,
all right, for the signals the light to try to
you know, move through space. We're seeing something from where
we stand that happened a long, long long time ago.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yes, absolutely, But it's also just the distance between our
viewpoint and where that light is coming from, right. Yes,
So even though we are traveling that fast through the galaxy,
you know, writing our star, basically the perspective doesn't change
that much in proportion because of how dang far away
(26:20):
it is. But it's just one of those things that
you I would need a science teacher to sit down
and like really explain it to me fully to grasp it, right.
But you know, it's just it's just weird that a
video like that could be made and there are probably
a lot of people who watch that and go, oh man,
those stars are bullshit, those aren't real. That's the firmament.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yes, the quintessers. That's a great reference too, and we
understand like what you're saying, Matty, or what Neil de
grass Tyson and other other learned sources in the modern
day are pointing out, if you look at the math,
there are serious quantitative problems with the axioms upon which
(27:00):
most astrological belief systems hinge. That's very diplomatically put again,
we are not going to denigrate someone's personal beliefs, right,
It's kind of what works for you to a certain threshold.
We also need to know everybody was discovering this. Western
astrology reached its own conclusions yet Meso American civilizations, Near
(27:27):
Ese civilizations, the East Asian theater, all of these ancient
communities had their own astrological systems which are still being
practiced today. Astrology, now, if you are looking to explore
or encounter it, you're going to find countless guides, groups, apps, forums,
(27:47):
publications dedicated to general astrology or specific astrology. And as
you have doubtlessly experienced in your own life, fellow conspiracy realist,
astrology can be kind of you mentioned Spencer's earlier. It
could be kind of a hot topic for the dating scene.
Q The sound clip. OMG, you guys, that's so leo
(28:09):
for you to.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
Say thank you.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
So, with some validity, we could assume that astrology today
no longer holds that same you know, divine guidance that
it offered to past civilizations.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
However, we're about to see this assumption could not be
further from the truth.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Que the ad break.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Here's where it gets crazy, all right, we talked about it.
Most mass market horoscope publications these days are pretty positive. Right.
You're not going to open your local paper or for
a lot of us in the crowd tonight, you're not
going to pull up your you know, your general news
app and then see something that says uh uh oh sagittarius. Uh.
(29:00):
You know, stay indoors, don't go outside, beware of hawda odyssees,
and don't trust men in blue hats or something like that.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Yeah, you know, you don't know.
Speaker 5 (29:09):
They're gonna be something vague and generally feel goody or
in some way vaguely actionable, or you know, give you
something to look out for that is gonna turn your
luck around, you know, things like that.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
And this makes sense operationally. These are outlets that want
you to return in the future. And also I would
posit they don't want to be held liable for dangerous
or illegal actions a reader might take after they encounter
a horoscope.
Speaker 5 (29:40):
Yeah, to that point, but I kind of walk back
even what I said. They're not actionable exactly at all.
They're just sort of like giving you some signs to
maybe look out for or just in general, you know,
giving you a positive affirmation that things are looking up
for you, Vigo, right. But they're not saying, go do
the thing, because that's a really good point, Ben. They
(30:01):
don't want to be responsible for anybody misinterpreting that. And
maybe because they are so vague, doing something horrible because
they think that it's telling them to Aquarius.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Sometimes you want to do things and you do them.
Sometimes you want to do things and you don't listen
to the voices, Aquarius.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
You don't need to take accountability for your actions. It
was the stars.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Yeah, sorry, I'm calling out of work because mercury's rising
or in retrograde?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Is that the same thing?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
What's the different retrograde? Sorry, that's a better thing. That's
a better way. And also it sounds like we're we
we're obviously not dismissing this. We consider it a personal
belief system. And in the West, you know, for practitioners
of Western astrology, the first thing you have to point
out is that when we're reading those casual horoscopes, we
(30:51):
are reading twelve light paragraphs based upon what are called
sun signs. Sun signs are just the tip of the
astrological iceberg for a reading.
Speaker 5 (31:04):
But the in depth astrological readings that many true enthusiasts
of this stuff look to pull in so many more
details and factors than the kind of generally vague, feel
goodery of newspaper horoscopes. Things like the location of each planet,
longitude latitude, position of the stars relative to other stars, etc.
(31:29):
There's so many more variables that are included and pulling
from a much larger data set. So you know, because
of that you are going to see more specificity in
these conclusions.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
For better or for worse. More data to draw from
equals more in depth conclusions. And there are tons and
tons and tons of deep read services out there, and
we want to be very honest, please listen closely. The
vast majority of people, institutions, people especially offering deep reed services,
are not trying to grift you. They believe in this.
(32:07):
They are applying their acumen and their expertise and familiarity
to their clients. So they're not trying to, you know,
steal all your money. They are trying to help you.
They honestly believe in what they're doing. And most often
individuals looking for the deeper read of their astrological position,
(32:29):
they will go to another person or a service. And
that's where you see modern astrology getting much closer, leaving
much closer to the practices of ancient times. Specific conclusions,
specific advice, and specific warnings.
Speaker 5 (32:44):
And this is probably outside the scope of this episode,
but if I'm not mistaken, we've got one coming up
on the very topic on Ridiculous History. A lot of
those nine hundred number you know, pay by the minute
astrological reading services that were much more popular in the
late nineties in maybe early two thousands, many of those
have been proven to be less of deep reads than
(33:04):
they are deep deep grifts.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Shout out to the rude dudes on Ridiculous Crime and
they're Misscleo episode by.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
The way, nice, I haven't heard that. I need to
listen to that one for sure. And what we say
modern times, by the way, we're talking eighteen hundreds on
where there are specific people that are, you know, giving
that kind of granular advice based on the knowledge they
pull from the.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
Stars, and you might not read about it in the
news too often because a lot of people in an
increasingly secular world, they kind of want to play it
to the side, the kind of want it, you know,
not to be the headline. And that that cannot be
further from the truth. Right now, as we record, various
(33:50):
powerful people and institutions are still consulting astrologers, and it
is further not uncommon for these wisdom seekers to modify
their real world on Earth actions to comply with to
follow in accordance with the recommendations of their astrologers. Entire
countries have indeed modified their actions based on what they
(34:13):
perceive to be what I think we could call a
conspiracy of constellations. One of the best examples, let's do
two examples if we have time. One of the best
examples is Miandmar, which we talked about recently in depth.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
Yeah, so why don't we start there. Formerly known as Burma,
Myanmar is a Southeast Asian country that is situated between India, China,
and Thailand, and also shares some smaller borders with Bangladesh
and Laos.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yeah, we talked about it very recently with the large
facilities that are being built in this country right across
the border from some of those bordering countries where there's
a bit of a air of lawlessness because of the
deep political issue use in Me and Mar right now,
basically civil war. And when we talked about that, I
(35:08):
don't know, it's weird to me because when we're talking
about Me and Mar in relation to this specifically, are
we talking about like the ruling folks from the government
that were kind of overthrown that still say they're in power.
Are we talking about the folks who are coming in
to take to seize power.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Excellent question. We're talking about everyone, Oh called the meme
from Gary Oldsman. Yeah, you're You're absolutely right, Matt. There's
human trafficking and ongoing civil war, online scam slavery is
what we focused on in one episode. Every kind of
oppression you could imagine, including espionage, ops by foreign governments
(35:49):
and private corporations. Mean R has all of that and more. Currently,
as you pointed out, there are two groups that testify
they rule the land. Longstanding somewhat mercurial military junta and
then a loose coalition of forces purporting to push democracy
(36:10):
look into their funding is all we're going to say there.
It struggles with chaos moves toward democracy that have occurred
in the lifetimes of most of our listeners. They seem
to make headway like Ensong su key, and then abruptly
they're shut down a moment later. Me and mar to
your question there. Matt has always had a deep regard
(36:33):
and respect for divination, astrology, fortune telling, and in particular numerology,
largely based on Buddhist Hindu thought from civilization's past. And
we might casually in the West read our son signs
in the local paper. You might be, you know, swiping
(36:54):
to and fro on a dating app and saying, yeah, classic.
I feel like we're trying to use all those theact science.
What we said, Pisces cancer, Virgo leo Aquarius. What's another one, Sagittarius, Sagittarius.
You might be like, oh, Sagittarius, awesome. This is an
entry point into our conversation. But overwhelmingly in this part
(37:17):
of the world, people will consult for what you would
consider very serious decisions with longstanding consequences not just the public,
but also the people in power, like the generals and
the dictators. Numerous examples of this, like the independence of
Burma is probably the moment it became officially independent, is
(37:40):
almost certainly based on advice from fortune tellers and numerologists.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Really well, the date is January fourth, nineteen forty eight,
at four twenty eight. We understand, we get.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
It, ty ty, I knew you guys were cool.
Speaker 5 (37:59):
This almost certainly a decision that was made by some
very high level advisors practicing astrology, based on interpretations of
that type of numerology you were talking about. Ben former
dictator General Ney Winn was obsessed with numerology.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Oh yeah, this is where astrology touches the money. Oh
this is okay. So if you are increasingly like us,
paranoid and carrying a lot of cash, do us a
favor and pull out your currency of choice. Look at
it and imagine, like if you have a twenty dollars
bill and a five dollar bill and some ones or whatever,
(38:40):
imagine that all the five dollar bills you have were
pulled from currency. Now they're just pieces of paper. Always
a danger with fiat currency philosophy but that's what like
you were mentioning. No, that's what nim Win did. In
nineteen eighty seven, on the advice of his astrologer, he
went to the nation of Burma and said, the denominations
(39:04):
of forty five and ninety kats kyats don't count anymore.
They're not legal tender. And he probably did it. We're
ninety percent certain he made this call because his astrologer
told him that his lucky number was nine, and forty
five and ninety are divisible by nine. The sum of
(39:26):
four plus five, you know, nine, and so on and
so on. The rabbit hole goes deep. So he made
this decision affecting currency for millions of people because his
astrologer was talking to him about numerology. To be fair,
he did live to ninety two. Not bad, not bad
(39:47):
at all, right, so maybe maybe hopefully we get to
ninety two. But then there's we're set saying this to
set up an other example of astrology and government. In
Myanmar in two thousand and two, the military junta hit
the local population and later the rest of the world
(40:09):
with one hell of a Shamalan plot twist.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
Can I just say, if you're looking to find an
entry point into the jam band Fish. They have an
album called Hunta that's pretty great actually, So just just
putting that out there. I'm a fan of the Fish
album Hunta.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Unrelated, isn't There is there another band? Uh with Burma
in their.
Speaker 5 (40:32):
Mission of Burma Okay, kind of a post kind of
post hardcore maybe bands, but they're cool.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
So what happens in two thousand and two?
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Well, a lot, a lot happens in two thousand and two.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
That was really I thought it was only three.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yes, Well, my friends and I we all graduated from
high school. That's true. Days. It is weird to think
about that this happened just in our lifetime, this kind
of thinking all this stuff. It just how modern that
really is.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Wait, you were a junior during nine to eleven.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
I was.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
I was as well.
Speaker 5 (41:17):
I remember seeing the planes hit in real time during
a computer class. We had a computer like a tech class.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Hmm.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
It was sort of the class where everyone just kind
of got to, you know, do whatever.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
So it comes to pass. It's two thousand and two.
A lot of things are happening right as you said,
Matt Over in meandmart the rulers of the country until
they themselves, you know, fall a foul of coups and
so on. They they say they hatch a conspiracy, and
they say, all right, our capital city has been Rangoon
(41:53):
or called Yanggoon for a long time. Here's what's going
to happen. You got two months, everybody, you're gonna move
to our new capital about three hundred clicks north. You're
gonna call it Nipita or not Pita part in our
pronunciations here, and you're gonna do it right now. And
for outsiders and the local population, this made zero sense,
(42:18):
primarily because this new capital that they all had to
move to to sweet it did not exist. There was
no there was a small town, there was no capital.
It was all jungle.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Oh it's like Olympics rules. You just build a whole
new place.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Yes, yes, yeah, it.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Get in there way before it's ready.
Speaker 4 (42:38):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Yeah. And there was secondly another thing. So, okay, we'll
build the plane while we're flying it, right, we'll build
a we'll build a boat while we're on the ocean.
Very dangerous, very terrible for the people who are affected
by this decision. Their second problem is, then this is
something that China and our guys were looking at There's
(42:59):
no stratega advantage to moving this capital, nothing that you
could see operationally. There's no improvement in infrastructure because it
doesn't exist, no improvement in security nor borders doesn't affect
trade routes. There's no like resource extraction perk right meandmar
is famous for emeralds, for instance. It's not like right
(43:21):
next to an awesome emerald mind, none of that. It
is exactly as if someone in the White House in
the US woke up one day and said, you, guys,
I got a weird vibe. We're moving DC to Edison,
New Jersey. If Edison, New Jersey did not already exist.
That's about one hundred and eighty so miles north of
d C.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Good thing, all those marble buildings were, you know, built
on wheels with them with the possibility to just truck
them along the.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Highway, just like disassembly in your ikea furniture. Right. So
also add to this, everybody has to move in two months.
They also say it has to be a secret, so
you can't tell anybody. Imagine you're a public servant in
Yonggun and you get you get your moving papers. You
(44:10):
have to relocate immediately. You have to do it now,
and you cannot take your family with you further. You
can't tell them why you're going or where.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Oh man, yeah, so are we saying somebody got some
kind of bad reading and and like just said, something
bad's gonna happen here. We got to get out now.
Don't tell anybody it's happening. We just can't be here.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Right right, right, it's like a it's like that that
trope in so many Western action movies. Right, you know,
the aliens are coming, only a few people are allowed
into the arc.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
So the news did get public and Foreign Embassy's embarrassingly enough,
our friends in China, they were they were left out
to dry. Well I'm sure, I'm sure they knew a
little bit. They had to see something in the wind.
But the message they got from Meamar was essentially, you
guys don't have to move up with us, but if
(45:12):
you want to keep hanging out, well we're not gonna
come all the way down to you, so make your choice.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
So basically there wasn't a choice.
Speaker 5 (45:20):
Everyone had to move, and as you can imagine, there
was an absolute melee of hectic conversations. Wasn't the best
day to be in the State Department. Ben as you
point out astuteley in this outline.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Yeah, oh guys, the stars are telling me it's time
for an ad break. We'll be right back.
Speaker 4 (45:51):
And we've returned.
Speaker 5 (45:52):
Let's get back into our conversation about astrology and governments.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
All right?
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Why did they do it? Why do they want to
keep it secret? We kid thee not the military. Did
this based on advice from an astrologer, and you can
see it based on the Uh. This very specific timing
of these decisions, like the inauguration of the city itself,
occurs it again, just like independence, it occurs at a
(46:20):
very odd time, like oddly.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Specific November sixth two thousand and five, at six thirty
seven am local time. Why is that specific? Like why
like what what is the significance?
Speaker 3 (46:35):
I mean, why can't why do we have to wait
seven minutes? Why can't we just go at six thirty?
Speaker 4 (46:41):
Did?
Speaker 2 (46:42):
But was it was it purposeful?
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (46:45):
Yes, dude, it was like this is the time that
the thousands of trucks begin, you know, moving as you said,
all the all the marble buildings on wheales.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I'd be interested if they write if they write dates year, month, day, five, one, six,
six three seven. That's interesting.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
And then government workers, the guys we talked about who
had to move in silence, right, Uh. They they depart
from the old capital to the new one on November
eleventh at eleven am. So eleven eleven eleven, regardless of
how you write the.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Date, even I know that number is significant.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Make a wish, right, says every toxic relationship you've ever had.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Oh, mine was check the doors, make sure they're locked.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Okay, oh really, no, sour our buddy.
Speaker 6 (47:47):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Returning guest, General Tan Shui currently alive retired as we record.
He's the guy who made the call, and the story
is his personal astrologer told him he had to do
this these specific times, not just for himself, but because
doing so, moving the capital would save the nation of
(48:09):
Myanmar from a looming disaster.
Speaker 5 (48:12):
It's not to be confused with General Fung Shue, who
had a very similar attitude.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
No, General so over in China who who you know?
People were like, General, We've got a lot of problems,
and he said to hold on taste this.
Speaker 4 (48:26):
Yeahous, yeah it was.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
It's a little known fact that the astrologer of the
General there owned a lot of property where the new capital. No,
I'm just joking that that's not true, but you can imagine.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
It probably got a sweetheart deal. There's this deep What
we're saying is there's a deep, abiding relationship between Myanmar's
government policy and numerology. And there are so many more
examples of this, including including how one day true story
the general astrologer's staff told him that a woman will
(49:04):
one day lead the country, and as a result, we've
linked a picture here in our notes the General and
his entourage dawned traditional women's clothing for a photo. Op. Okay, yeah,
try to loophole it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
I know, I know, I'm watching you guys. Look at
the picture. It definitely look bad.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
No, it's just like, yeah, it looks like a skirt
of some sort.
Speaker 3 (49:35):
But just like I think it's called a lungee. But
just like the guy who changed the currency to extend
his lifespan and then later lived to ninety two. True
believers in astrological systems here will argue that the predictions
of the heavens came to pass because in two thousand
(49:57):
and eight, Me and Mar experienced the worst natural disaster
in all of its recorded history, and it hit yangun So.
Speaker 5 (50:07):
On May second, two thousand and eight, the tropical cyclone
Nargus made landfall, passing by the old capitol and caused
at least fifteen point three billion US dollars worth of damage,
killed hundreds of thousands of people, an absolute tragedy in
humanitarian crisis, so many in fact, that we still aren't
(50:28):
quite sure what the death toll actually was.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Wow, and it bypassed the new capitol, or didn't touch
the new capital and.
Speaker 3 (50:36):
Touch it didn't touch it. And it also was kind
of a close it was. It was a close scrape
with the old capital, So there was tremendous damage, as
you were saying, old to the infrastructure. Hundreds of thousands
of people did die, but for a lot of people
observing this who survived, this proved that the astrologer had
(50:59):
effected powers to foretell the future, to say the sooth.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Yeah, at least you know, for them, because it's personal
experience that close and yeah, you can see how that
would reinforce the belief for sure.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
And then we can also see how the more skeptical
in the audience would say, look at the geography, look
at the climate, you know, something like this was statistically inevitable.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
Yeah, it's a rough one. I mean, and also, you
know worthy astrologers, correct? Does this depend on your individual perspective?
Are we as Westerner's outhering as we mentioned earlier, and
hey they're hi there, Hello there, folks. Brief pause, We
went offline and consulted our own star chart aka our
(51:47):
publishing buffer. In our schedules.
Speaker 4 (51:50):
It becomes an Excel spreadsheet form.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
Yes, yes, a very mystical Excel spreadsheet. And we are
going to make this a series. We've given a brief
exploration of the history of astrology right the world entire
We've looked at specific instances in the Nation of Mean
Marnie Burma. And when we return in chapter two, we're
(52:14):
taking this closer to home, all the way to the
White House.
Speaker 4 (52:18):
We're going stateside. We're gonna talk a little bit about.
Speaker 5 (52:21):
Reagan, oh yeah, and Reagan exactly, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
And older presidents that you don't remember, like Franklin Pierce.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
I remember, I wasn't impressed, but I remember I don't
use a snap address. We're going to show you that
this practice that we're talking about doesn't doesn't just exist
in lands some may consider far flung. Now again, we
have always endeavored to be I was going to say acknowledged, acknowledgeful,
(52:57):
respectful of and acknowledging of people's personal beliefs and practices.
And we know this may be a divisive topic. A
lot of us in the crowd tonight are hardcore skeptics,
A lot of us are very much true believers, and
we want to hear from all of you. This show
does not exist without you, so thank you so much
(53:17):
for tuning in. Thanks always to our long suffering producers,
Try Force and the Tennessee pal Let us know your
thoughts and join us for chapter two of the Exploration
on astrology and Government. Hey guys, how do I get
in touch with you? We've got good news. You can
find us online. You can send us an email. You
can even tappity tap us on a telephonic device. It's true.
Speaker 5 (53:39):
If you want to find us on the internet, on
your social media platform with choice, you can find us
at the handle conspiracy stuff, where we exist on Facebook
with our Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy, on YouTube,
where we have video content a little for your enjoyment,
and on x nay fka Twitter, on Instagram and TikTok. However,
we are conspiracy stuff show.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
Please don't tap or direct phones. There are plenty of
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number is one eight three three std WYTK. When you
call in, give yourself a cool nickname and let us
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what it is, and use it if you wish. If
(54:21):
you wish to instead, send us links, longer thoughts, maybe
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or a doggie doo or another animal in your life.
We love those. Why not send us an email? We
are the.
Speaker 3 (54:37):
Entities that read every piece of correspondence we receive. We've
actually returned from abroad and are catching up with you
void wise as we return, be well aware, yet I'd
afraid Sometimes the void writes back, Hey is that true?
How can I learn for certain? Well, there's one way,
step a little further from the light. Join us here
in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
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