March 14, 2025 • 73 mins
While astrology is often portrayed as a belief system of ancient empires and ages past, the popular assumption could not be further from the truth. In the second episode of this series, Ben, Matt and Noel explore the times U.S. Presidents looked for guidance from the stars.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly,
you are you. You are here. That makes this the
stuff they don't want you to know. Previously, on Stuff
they don't want you to know, you had a bunch
of leos digging into astrology. True story, folks, we just
(00:53):
learned that our producer and one of our hosts share
a birthday.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
What does it mean?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
What does it mean.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
That that's a really good day to be born on?
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Your shots are aligned?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yes, yeah, we consulted our constellations. Some of our astute
listeners may have predicted that we would return to the
concept of astrology and government.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Folks.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Please check out our first episode.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
We had a.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I think we had a pretty good exploration of the
nation of Meammar, which, in a plot twist, according to
the advice of soothsayers, decided to move their capital to
a place that was like three hundred clicks north and
hadn't been built. And we also just had a great
(01:50):
interview about me and Mar following up on another episode we.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Did by the spoiler alert if you haven't listened to
the first episode yet, they moved that capital and then
there was a devastating storm that rolled through right in
the area a couple of years later, which is you know,
it can either it can lead you towards a lot
like the way a strology in general can towards believing
that it had full merit right right, Yeah, we move
(02:20):
our capital, say the generals of Memmr.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
We move it north to avoid a disaster in two
thousand and five two thousand and eight cyclone hits. So
have we predicted the future or was that statistically inevitable?
Please do check out our exploration of Meammar with Denise
(02:45):
Chan from Scam Factory. Check out our earlier episodes on
astrology in the government. And by the way, we did
a little bit of a cliffhanger in our last episode
because we're talking about a place that a lot of
people in the audience have not visited. But Noel Matt
(03:07):
as we teased earlier in chapter one astrology, and the
government gets a little bit closer to home than a
lot of people would assume.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Wait, you're talking about in these United States.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
Sixteen hundred Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
No, hey, think on that. We'll be right back after
a few words from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Here are the facts in the first chapter of our
exploration regarding astrology in the government. We spent a lot
of time on a brief history of astrology. Right, it's
a type of divination. We did what I think is
a pretty fun experiment with another type of divination, bibliomancy.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah. That's where you open a book to a random page,
pick out a passage, and that passage is going to
somehow apply to whatever question you asked or situation you're
currently in. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, And it was full disclosure. It was easier for
us to do that versus other forms of divination like
reading introls.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Or reading leaves. Yeah, yeah, tea leaves as well.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yes, we are actively scrying every time we record one
of these episodes.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Coffee spills, you know that'll also do it.
Speaker 6 (04:39):
Also the thing, yes, well, we're being silly, but we
really as we've mentioned before, and not to backpedal or anything,
we're not here to criticize anyone who really, you know,
put sand into this stuff, and there are many folks
that very much do. I look at it as another
form of faith, another form of religion in many ways.
So I don't think we're here to poopoo anybody's belief,
(05:00):
make anybody feel dumb in any form or fashion.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
We're just being silly guys.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all enjoy Gallows humor, especially here
in twenty twenty five, and we were exploring some key
facts about astrology overall.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
We talked about how Western astrology is likely statistically the
most familiar to many of us in the audience tonight,
but there are varied other forms of astrological beliefs. Mesoamerican
Asiatic civilizations all created their own systems. For instance, you
(05:42):
guys are probably if I had to guess, you're probably
roosters in Chinese horoscopes.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I believe I'm a rat.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
You're a rat, a fire rat, or a metal rat
or the other.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Electric Hey, I love that Hyseillo have to put the yellow.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Yellow elect me nice?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Noel, do you have one? Do you know your Chinese horoscope?
Speaker 4 (06:09):
I do not. I think you know. I think I'm
a rat. I do believe that I am a rat.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Okay, all right, I.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
Could be wrong, though, I could be wrong, but I
think that I am a metal rat.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Tight.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
That's a weird response. But yes, I don't know.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
Metal rat sounds kind of scary, like some sort of
like robo rat that comes for you.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
We also found that people leverage astrology for different reasons. Right,
In most casual horoscopes you encounter today, you will see
less of an emphasis on predicting the future. Instead, you'll see,
like you were saying earlier, a sort of diagnostic tool
for psychology. Right, tell me more about why I make decisions?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Right?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Is this so sagittarius of me?
Speaker 4 (07:00):
You know?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Is this so virgo?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
It's it's not attempting to uh tell you what to
do with an empire. It's attempting to teach you more
about yourself.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Mouser, that's the that's the name Mouser. Do you guys
remember that from teenage m I was thinking there was
a metal rat.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
He like sort of like a bizarro splinter.
Speaker 6 (07:24):
Isn't he sort of meant to be like the antithesis
to like evil splinter?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I thought they were just a little tiny.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
The little guys.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Yes, yes, yes, under we're keeping all of chomping jaws.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Don't they have chompy jaws? They have jaws? Do they
got chompies? Okay, thank you for that nostalgia. Bam, Matt,
I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Important, important, Uh, this is why we're here together tonight. Third,
we have to emphasize there is no universally accepted scientific
basis supporting the claims of astrology. And that's a bummer
for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Right, Oh, yeah, pretty big bummer. But you know what else,
that's why it gets into the belief system thing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Even though modern science does not assign any quantitative truth
to astrology, a lot of people practice it, right, And
it is, in the opinion of this show, a matter
of belief or a matter of faith. You may have
read your own horoscope as you tuned in tonight. If so, congratulations,
(08:32):
We hope it was a good one. And I think
in our previous episode we talked a little bit about this,
like they're not really bad news horoscopes in the West, right, No.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Just like there aren't really bad news fortune cookies.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Usually I got one fortune cookie true story, one time
that said turn around.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
What was someone there?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yes, and they say boo, they actually they actually put
the fortune cookie there. It was a weird situation.
Speaker 6 (09:04):
Oh that makes sense. That tracks Ye, I've never had
a sinister fortune cookie before. But yeah, I mean, you know, again,
these things are meant to be super accessible, at least
the ones that are way more editorialized and like published
and more universally kind of read magazines and periodicals and stuff.
But as we mentioned in the last episode, if you
really go out for the more specific and complex types
(09:28):
of astrological readings, then you know you were going to get.
Your results may vary, right, You're not necessarily always going
to get some sort of like life affirming thumbs up.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
So I guys it in my world, which is highly
limited right when it comes to my perspective and experience,
astrology has been a lot on the fringes that maybe
that has a lot to do with where I grew up,
you know, who my parents were, geographically where I am
(09:59):
in all that stuff. Astrology was like a thing that
I didn't encounter very often, especially growing up. Not until
I got older did I see it more. I do
not encounter it a lot when it comes to maybe
the people who are in charge in the systems and
organizations I interact with on a regular basis, at least
I don't they aren't openly talking about it, the people
(10:21):
that run those things. Maybe it just doesn't feel like
something that I associate with a boss or something like that.
Do you guys have that same I don't know experience.
Speaker 6 (10:33):
Oh, you mean sort of like in more day to
day leadership roles. Folks that put a lot of stock
into this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, a principal at a school or a I don't know,
an owner operator of a local store, or the CEO
of a company.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
Well, was to say, they're not into it privately, but
our culture definitely, you know, in those types of roles
would not be something that folks would maybe make super known, right.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Especially in a increasingly secular Western civilization. You know, there
are largely dismissive scientific attitudes toward belief systems of astrology.
So it's easy to that point to assume our vaunted
leaders of modern society, our nascent nations, would be likewise
(11:22):
dismissive of these ideas.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
The science says hello, so we say goodbye to the religion. However,
as we learn in our earlier episode and the current episode,
this assumption could not be further from the truth. Here's
where it gets crazy. Astrology the White House. What's your sign,
(11:48):
mister president. Statistically, your dude, and statistically you're also an aquarius. Weird.
You also have a tendency higher than average to be
left handed. We're going to leave that that they are
tune into ridiculous history. It is no secret that the
founding fathers of the United States considered themselves learned men.
(12:10):
They had a deep appreciation of science as they understood
it at the time. Also to be objective. Beat me here, Andrew.
They were super wrong about a bunch of shit.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, and you can imagine why someone who is running
such an intricate and complicated system as a country, you
would want to be science first, at least in some respect.
You want to have an understanding of the sciences that
govern a lot of the stuff, the choices you're making, Right,
it does seem weird that you might consult something that
(12:46):
is the stars to make decisions, does it though?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Because the stars are constant, you can you know, we
referenced fivel earlier, right, You.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Can share experience for sure.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Right, you can look up and you can see the
same thing pauper prints alike. There is a passage predictable
to the heavens well.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
And the beautiful part about that in terms of what
a functional you know, use of the stars might be
to this day, it's still a way you can find
your your literal north star if you're like lost in
the woods and you can get pointed in the right direction.
And I think that's universally accepted as a way of
using the stars for navigation purposes for example, even though
(13:30):
of course we have you know, technology for that kind
of stuff now, it's still a good go to if
you don't have those things. But when you start to
impart meaning beyond just geographical positioning, you know, into the stars,
it does start to feel like that is maybe looked
at more askance these days.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I think it's because we're so programmed and primed to
imagine the president of the United States as consulting God. Right,
even though it is a secular nation, right, there is
no one God and there's no one religion for this nation,
we still watch each president who gets indocurated to put
(14:09):
their hand on a Christian Bible. Right, we still hear
them give speeches and announcements where they reference God directly,
and we sing songs about the nation directly tied to
g dash T. And it's just when then you imagine
astrology is something othered from I don't know some of
the dogmatic beliefs those religions.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
I don't know if I even buy that.
Speaker 6 (14:31):
A lot of politicians that are very forward with that
kind of stuff are maybe even true believers. It seems
like they're just trying to appeal to a particular voting base.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Yeah, most of the time.
Speaker 6 (14:40):
And the and astrology maybe would be on the table
too if it were practiced and accepted by a larger
swath of Americans.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Mhm.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
That's so leo of you.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
From a standpoint of rhetoric and like campaigning and stuff,
I think any belief system that was used, then accepted
and believed in widely enough would be something that would
have to be addressed by politicians to make sure that
they're not aliening people and they're making people feel seen,
if not outright claiming that belief system for themselves.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Look.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, A great case study here, and I don't want
to ruffle feathers, would be the LDS Church in Utah.
You know what I mean that that is a case
study in how a politician will attempt to move with
a demographic in public democracy representative democracy. It's crucial to
(15:39):
remember when we're talking about the Founding Fathers, their perceptions
of science were very much the result of the environment
and the age in which they lived. So a lot
of the stuff that they super hardcore, fundamentally believed it
no matter what they were saying to the public. A
lot of what they can considered hard science was later
(16:02):
proven to be partially or entirely incorrect. Some notable examples
in this Hall of shame or this hall of learning opportunities,
if we want to be positive, would be anything regarding
eugenics or racial theory. A lot of phrenology fans amid
the Founding Fathers super wrong and dumb.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, and a lot of members of the Free and
Accepted Masons, right which have That group has their own
set of symbols and in seat of beliefs and ideas
and at which they.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Have made it into currency.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Even you know, I mean shout out my boy herme's tea.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, yeah, well some of them extend to the stars exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, very much a great architect. All human minds, we
can say, do enjoy the idea of a great creator, right,
some sort of structure, some sort of guy force, because
the alternative is simply damning philosophically, that no one would
(17:07):
be at the wheel, that all of this occurred via accident.
That's a scary thought. So of course people look toward pattern,
people look toward meaning. With all this in mind, it
should not be surprising to realize many former US politicians
placed at least some amount of credence in the ancient
(17:28):
science slash spiritual exploration of divination and astrology. You guy's
true story, Our buddy, Benjamin Franklin, you remember him from earlier.
Definitely not a serial killer, Yeah, most most.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
Likely, most likely some experience.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Good note, No, not proven serial killer. He relied on
astrology to select the signing date of the Declaration of Independence,
which was you know, it's a piece of paper the
US has and was a pretty big deal up until recently.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Because now we're dependent. Oh never mind. Yeah, the the
recent actions are well in a line with our actions.
Did anybody see that little quotation?
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Every action he gets an equal and opposite reaction. Now, sure,
that's us.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
If you don't know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Search shout out article five. Oh gosh, buddy, look our
buddy bed Despite not being a proven serial killer, check
out our earlier episode. He's a fascinating sort of weird dude.
He adhered to astrology, and it might sound crazy until
(18:57):
we realized that he published a best selling book, Poor
Richard's Almanac. Remember that one. Were you guys there.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
There?
Speaker 6 (19:08):
I was there, Yeah at the first can show Sorry
if I'm doing a losing my edge thing, No, but
I do.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I've heard Tell, heard tell, uh herd tell. Poor Richard's
Almanac is this approachable sort of like Uncle John's Bathroom
Guide to the Seasons of the United States, And it
follows in great deal, you know, the passage of harvest
(19:37):
and planting and fallow times, and then it also tells
you a lot about the North Star and predictions of
the heavens. Ben Franklin, in addition to be a pretty
naughty boy and a libertine and a renaissance man, he
was super into astrology. He thought it made sense, and
(19:58):
he even disc is Isaac Newton from earlier in Poor
Richard's Almanac. Can we go to Who's got a good
Ben Franklin voice. I'm too close to it.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
No, come on, you've got to do it, you know you, No,
you gotta do it.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
You gotta one of you guys.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
I refuse Maddie, you're the voice master. Come on, give it.
Here we go, all right, This.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Is poor Richard's almanac, Ben Franklin's defense of astrology Curt
hist Rader.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Astrology is one of the most ancient sciences, held in
high esteem of old by the wise and great. Formerly,
no prince would make war peace, nor any general fight
or battle. In short, no important affair was taken without
first consulting an astrology who examined the aspects and configurations
of the heavenly bodies and market the lucky hour. Now
(20:55):
the noble art machhae to the age we live in
is dwindled into contempt.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Perfect. Wow, that was great, well done, sir.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah, Now let's unpact this. What we're seeing here is
a founding father Ben Franklin, presented by our brother Matt Frederick,
saying essentially that he considers astrology one of the oldest
actual sciences, actual fact science, as our pal Lauren would say.
(21:28):
And he is also acknowledging that a lot of more
secular people don't vibe with.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
It, not a bit.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, but Manajamin Franklin, this guy is massively important. He
started the CIA, just kidding. He was just a founding member.
As we talked about.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
He was definitely there, guys.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
He was middle management on some operations.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
He was a muse for the CIA. But he didn't
run the place, right, he was just he was on
the sidelines whispering into people's ears.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
All right, all right, we're all having fun with Ben.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
He did a lot of stuff. And he also is
clearly a fan of astrology. And he continues on if
you want to read more of his work on the Almanac,
he continues to talk about how he feels the sh
as you would say in the modern world has lost
(22:29):
its way when it comes to ancient science. And he
factored in the passage of heavenly bodies when he was
choosing times for policy to be signed up to and
including the Declaration of Independence. We're not saying he's right.
We're not saying he genuinely believed it. We are saying
(22:51):
he's kind of the first internetural in America. Amazing and
with this. We are are attempting to prove the case
that the US government has always held a somewhat secret
affinity for astrology. We hope that you will join us
(23:14):
after the outbreak, we're diving into even weirder stuff. Shout
out to Ben Franklin. I'm so scared of that guy.
You know he took air baths.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Yeah, I mean, who's a bit of a newtist.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Well, right back, and we've returned. Before we get to
the present day, or the more present day, we're going
(23:49):
to we're gonna share a couple stories about other founding
fathers or other heads of US state who were involved
with astrology, often by proxy.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Oh yeah, oh yeah. Hey, let's jump to a president
that everybody remembers, President Franklin Pierce. Boo, did that ring
all the bells? No? No, Well, President Pierce was in
office from March fourth, eighteen fifty three until March fourth,
(24:23):
eighteen fifty seven. Very exciting time in the United States
that we all remember. But the reason we're going to
talking about Franklin Pierce is because when we're talking about astrology,
there's a loose connection, and I say that a very
loose connection to other parts of spiritualism that we've discussed
on this show before, the concept that there is some
(24:46):
kind of veil between us and the experience we have
on this planet and some other worldly plane, some spiritual plane,
whether that is even the heavens, because it could extend
to the heavens itself, or maybe it's just between life
and death and things like that. We're bringing up Franklin
Pierce because he is His time in office was specifically
(25:12):
marked by some of the beliefs and actions of his spouse,
Jane Pierce, and the two of them, together while in
the White House, attempted to do things like contact dead
love ones, so like actually having seances inside the White
House walls, which to me, guys, feels like something that
(25:36):
just doesn't happen unless you're in some kind of you know,
conspiracy movie or some movie about I don't know, I'm
just it's just a seance in the White House feels
so wrong to me, and I think it's because of
how I've been programmed over the years. Yes, it seems
like a bron thing. You don't have a seance in
the White House. Yeah, it's unheard of, it's uncou and
(26:01):
maybe it's just because it feels The White House feels
like a country club to me or something where just
only super wealthy people are allowed to go into. And
I don't know, super No, you guys don't like anything
I'm saying here.
Speaker 6 (26:14):
I was talking about, no no, but that's true. But
also we know about a lot of these kind of
clandestine gatherings and you know, secret organizations Book and Snake
and all of that where the members you know, publicly
are very often evangelical at the very least, like good Christian,
patriotic Americans, but behind closed doors, all kinds of stuff
(26:37):
is on the table.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
And I was always.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, yeah, we got your back man. Also, nol Matt
and I have been to the White House together. It's
a very weird place.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
It's super weird.
Speaker 6 (26:47):
Washington, d C. Is super weird. I just remember the
first time I went there. The people kind of some
people who are you know, likely not psychologically well and
are unhoused, et cetera. They have a very different vibe
there than they do in another part of the country.
The kinds of things that they're you know, screaming from
the street corners, very conspiratorial, and there's just a certain
(27:09):
energy there that is very different than anywhere else I've.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Ever been to.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
And before we continue here, let's set the stage. Let's
get in front of the emails. Franklin Pierce is often
regarded as one of the not best US presidents, and
I think enough time has passed that historians have done
their bit. We can point out that folks like Teddy
(27:33):
Roosevelt said mean things about former Potus Pierce. He said, specifically,
quote Franklin Pierce is a servile tool of men, worse
than himself ever ready to do any work. The oh
geez slavery leaders set him. So this guy, like like
(27:55):
you're saying, Matt, he he's not president for a very
long time. He is also very much a product of
his time. We're talking about the spiritualism movement, yeah, talking
about the idea of science, addressing that great gnostic veil
that you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Right, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
And just.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Did you give a minor backstory here. Franklin Pierce and
his wife Jane were on a box car. They had
their eleven year old son, I think he was eleven
at the time. They had their young son with them
at the time. The boxcar overturned and the sun was
crushed essentially horrifically. Both parents witnessed this and saw this,
and they, you know, Jane, just like right before the inauguration,
(28:45):
pretty soon before the inauguration, and then once they got
to the White House, they made attempts. I mean, they're
at the seat of power. If there is a way
to contact your dead loved one, perhaps being in that place,
maybe there's power to that right ending on your beliefs,
maybe there's power to holding that position in general. There
were numerous attempts made to contact this dead child, you know,
(29:10):
through various means and methods, and I think maybe just
it's not something that I imagined would have ever.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Happened, Matt. Was there a sense that you got.
Speaker 6 (29:19):
In looking into this, that maybe this type of thing
was seen as something that women would be more interested in,
and that maybe, you know, the mother, this is something
that she wanted, but perhaps she was maybe being kind
of allowed to do it by her husband. I'm sorry,
(29:40):
I know that there were men that were interested in
this stuff too. I'm just wondering if the historical context
is something to talk about, because I guess I think
of many of the folks, the practitioners of seances historically
being women.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Well, I can't really speak to that. I mean, there's
lots you could get into with you know, think about
historical depictions and thoughts on witchcraft and all that stuff,
getting long and show. Yeah, you just go way way.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Back in society always seeks to show on women.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, precisely. In this case, you're also talking about the
historical context of the Fox sisters who were alive, who
actually visited the White House to attempt to contact Jane's
dead loved ones.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
So you know, to attempt to attempt to look like
they were attempting to contact.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I think, yes, that is correct then. But in the
case of Jane, right, if you go to hint to
her personal perspective, she believes that potentially they can, right.
So that's all occurring, and you know you can get
into other presidents and spouses as well. Mary Lincoln did
the same kinds of spiritual spiritualism, things like seances to
(30:55):
contact her dead children.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
And you all might comment about this being maybe something
that women and we're more interested and certainly not meant
to be dismissive in any way or gendering anything. It
just was I think I wanted to take a minute
to talk about exactly what you guys mentioned, which was
the context and the maybe gender roles and politics of
the time.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Well, I would to that agreed. I would also call
our collective attention to our previous episode on the Screaming
Girls of Malaysia, right, remember that one. Look, I'm going
in a million directions here. It's amazing that I've never
tried adderall. Can you guys imagine how insufferable I.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Would Be'd be like the Tasmanian devil, beIN jeez.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
To take bring it back, bring it back, taking.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
It back to the White House and Mary Lincoln there. Yeah,
because there's a specific room in the White House called
the Red Room, which already freaks me out. Sounds like
a place where you either get murdered or murder. It's
a weird day.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
It's a weird day.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
It was the Red Room as it was red and
has been designed red by various interior designers over the
years and redesign and redesign. I'm gonna share an image
with you guys that I found on the White House
website of the Red Room of a particular time when
it was redone. Uh And if you look at this
image that I just said, it feels like an astrology room.
(32:24):
It's got stars all along the ceiling. The way the
red is laid out in that room, it feels as
though you would go there and consult the stars. Sure,
this is this was a redesign after the time of
Mary Lincoln when she's in the in the white House's
first Lady. After the time of Pierce, obviously, But this.
Speaker 6 (32:45):
Table in the middle on Matt would have been sort
of where this seance would have been conducted.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
No, you could set the room up with the tables
and chairs however you want, just because again this is
this is a redesign after those seances were got it,
got it, But that's just a show. The White House
is a place where this kind of stuff can happen,
and has happened.
Speaker 6 (33:09):
M but much more recently than that, right, Ben, This
is the part of the episode that really blew my mind.
Like this era that you're talking about, Matt, it all
makes sense. This stuff was trendy even, right, and it
would make sense this would be employed. But I would
have thought this would have gone out the window in
(33:29):
more modern times, not the case.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
Out the red room window.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Oh my gosh, this is the one we were teasing
as well, like we have built a pretty solid case
that astrology divination has always existed low key as a
part of US policy. Cast your memory back and not
to date anyone you know too far, but some of
(33:56):
us in the audience tonight might remember a fairly famous
actor named Ronald Reagan, who is also you know, sort
of famous for a couple of other things, right.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
A line of Western civilization.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Oh, it's trickling down Horse and sparrow. Look, we can
learn about dictators a world away, and we can immediately
exoticize or as you guys were saying, other their actions.
Surely not us, obviously, we in America have our priority.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Straight.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Horoscopes are fun. But science, God's our civilization. I got
increasingly Texas on that one.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
And I'm sorry, guys, Okay, science or God and or
both and or you know, it's just they're really closely linked.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
So while it is still legal for us to talk
about this on air, please remember, folks, the US White
House very recently was influenced by astrology. The Ronald Reagan
administration had some stuff to deal with. And it gets
(35:08):
a little confusing because one of our primary sources for
this is a former chief of Staff for Ronald Reagan,
and his name is Don Reagan r E g A
n SO Reagan Reagan nominative determinism. I kind of think
that's why I got the job.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And there's a Yes, there's a series of I think three,
maybe even four books. They go over everything we're going
to be talking about from from this moment forward, where
it's like the different perspectives of all the people involved,
and I think Don has one of them. I think, okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Don has a memoir called for the Record, From Wall
Street to the White House. Here's how he depicts the
interaction of ESTROLA with the Reagan administration. Now, Matt, you
did an excellent job with Ben Franklin. I suggest or
I vote that we go to none other than Nol
(36:11):
the Bagman Brown for a for a dramatic recreation of
Don Reagan, a recreational recreation.
Speaker 4 (36:22):
I'm going to do my best, Ben, to do my
duty and to God in my country, to impersonate Don Reagan.
Speaker 6 (36:28):
And this is what he writes in For the Record,
his memoir. As he said, Ben, virtually every major move
and decision the Reagan's made during my time as White
House Chief of staff was cleared in advance with this
woman in San Francisco who drew up horoscopes to make
certain that the planets were in a favorable alignment for
(36:51):
the enterprise, like the stars not the starship Enterprise, the
enterprise of what the thing they were doing?
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Right?
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Amazing, Andrews, Let's make sure we have applause cues.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
It was great.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
You know what I got from? Then a little New York.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
That's my guy. That's my guy. There's no one better
to copy than the Barry. You shake your jowls with it.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Man, I like how San Francisco was five very angry syllables.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
It was amazing.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
It was amazing.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Also, uh, our guy Don goes on to say he
is required by the President and the First Lady to
keep a color coded calendar on his desk. Like if
you've ever seen a desk calendar? God, I'm dating myself here.
He had these little like post its, essentially and highlighter
(37:51):
things where good days astrologically were highlighted in green and
bad days were highlighted in red. If we go, If
we go to Jessica Weisberg, writing an excellent, relatively short
article for The Paris Review in June twenty eighteen. We
(38:12):
can actually see the way this calendar is mapped out.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
From January sixteenth to the twenty third, very bad. January
twentieth nothing outside the White House, possible attempt.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Hey, Haye, point of order, Matt, I believe that just
says nothing outside the wh could have been waffle house.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Yeah, true, we just don't know. We don't know.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, but into history, stuff goes down inside the waffle
house all the time, So you've got to be careful
inside outside who knows of February twentieth through the twenty sixth,
be careful. March seventh through the fourteenth, bad period. March
tenth through fourteenth, no outside activity, March sixteenth, very bad.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
What is this outside activity referring to a second time?
We've seen that way with nothing outside the waffle house
and now no outside Actually.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
It's referring to President Reagan's movements. Where can he go?
And because remember there was an attempt on his life, right,
and that is one of the things that pushed all
of this.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Yeah, the Hinckley situation, it was real.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Hankykley was real Hinkley.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
This is this list goes on and you will notice
astute conspiracy realist that there's never any note of a
positive day in this calendar. You know what I mean?
You need an addabley of newspaper horoscopes. Yeah, tenth, March
(39:48):
tenth to fourteenth, no outside activity, March sixteenth, very bad,
March fifteenth the IDEs of March. By the way, why
is that not a good day? Or did they just
skip that part?
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Who knows? I do. I can't remember if there's tarot
reading and other specific divination things occurring here, or if
it is just an astrological chart that's being interpreted by somebody.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Ah, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Just I can't remember. In all the reporting, there is
so much written about this, you guys that Yeah, well,
at least I personally had no idea it existed out there.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Yeah, and in that kind of experience or surprise, our
buddy Don Reagan is he's super irritated, right Like he's
the chief of staff. That is a very stressful job,
and he's asking himself continually, why can this one individual
(40:50):
who has never been elected, why can they hold such
influence over the day to day actions of the most
dangerous human being alive? Spoiler, The most dangerous human being
alive is in recent history, always going to be the
US president.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
This is very precient. Then the question that you just asked,
it seems like we're going through something a little bit
similar right now.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Weird ah, I mean, so, the most dangerous human being
un planet Earth is not like the dictators, the generals,
the Lunda runners of Myanmar. They have a rotating staff
of fortune tellers. They have like a think tank of
(41:35):
people who tell you good and bad days. Check out
our earlier episode. In this case, the White House has
just one astrologer, a little bit off the books, a
little bit on the books. We're gonna pause for a
word from our sponsor, and we're gonna tell you about
this person from Nola. Can you say San Francisco again?
Speaker 4 (41:57):
And San Francisco.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Her name is Joan Quickly. We've returned. Let's meet Joan Quickly.
(42:25):
Joan Quickly is from no Just one more time, let's
just go. I love it all right. Joe Quickly is
the closest you can get to old money out west,
out in San Francisco, the Quickly family. They own a
(42:46):
lot of hotels. We're telling you this not to judge
the person, just to let you know she's not hard up.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
For money.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
She is a San Franciscan socialite, and she is not
directly connected to Ronald Reagan, who will later become US
President for a time. Instead, she's connected to a lady
named Nancy Reagan, who later becomes the First Lady. And
(43:17):
we're gonna cut. We're gonna cut that parenthetical about our
sexual exploits. Let's keep that way.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Nancy's or Jones.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
Nancy?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Okay, wait Nancy? Yeah? Oh, I really thought it was
gonna be Jones.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
We're keeping it in all right. Fine, So do you
guys remember MERV Griffin? Why do I sound so old?
Speaker 4 (43:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
I was in this episode, you were there.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
I'm aware of the name, and I don't know why
I have salacious in my mind when I think of
MERV Griffin. But maybe it was just more of a
talk show in the seventies.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
Yeah, it was very popular talk show. No, it was
earlier in the seventies when he.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Was around for a while.
Speaker 4 (44:03):
He was school there.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Yeah, yeah, he he did have a talk show. He
had a number of like TV hosting things, and in
the early seventies nineteen seventies, he introduces Nancy Reagan and
Joan quickly, and when he introduces them. Nancy Reagan and
(44:28):
Ronald Reagan are still like very much Hollywood exploring, you know,
the political scene, and quickly is a frequent guest on
MERV Griffin's talk show. So she, as a Republican, volunteers
to sort of lend her astrological expertise to the Reagan campaigns.
(44:52):
He had an unsuccessful foray, as we remember in nineteen
seventy six, towards the presidency. She said, Joan quickly said
she knew it wouldn't work out. She saw it in
the stars. And then later, of course, he becomes president
and people start calling him the Gipper.
Speaker 6 (45:13):
Yeah, win one for the Gipper because he was in
a baseball related film, the name of which is Escaping Me,
and he's a spoiler alert I guess on his deathbed
and someone speaking to him and he says, win one
for the Gipper.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
That's where it comes from. That's the etymology. Oh thank
you dude.
Speaker 4 (45:31):
When he was an actor, yes, yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
So early on, the Gipper catches some guff from political
opponents and from the media because people are saying he's
consulting astrologers. This is very much not nineteen eighties Republican America. Right,
you're supposed to be on Wall Street. You're supposed to
be like doing their type of Black Monday murders kind
(45:58):
of divination, right, reading stocks and trades and doing a
what do you call it futures.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Yeah, but if you're reading those stocks and trades, there's
a little section in the same publication that has your
daily horoscope, and sometimes your eyes just glanced past it
and you may take a thing or two in two account.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
Yeah, I was drifted. I was drifted. I was looking
at Nasdak and then I, you know, I I I
saw some Taurus.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
I don't know if that.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Were some Fords. Is that what we're talking about?
Speaker 3 (46:34):
Oh geez, as long as it's not a Honda Odyssey.
Speaker 6 (46:38):
Uh, I respectfully did not purchase out of respect for you.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Ben, I appreciate that, you know, thank you for your service,
and of.
Speaker 6 (46:47):
Course you know you're welcome out here for And by
the way, the character that he's playing in that film
is not youre dame football player George Gipp. He is
at his deathbed speaking to uh the I think one
of the main characters in the film, uh Knute Rockney.
When you see he requests that he win one for
(47:07):
the Gipper, just one.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
He says, can you spell Canute for the gang?
Speaker 4 (47:11):
K n Ute?
Speaker 6 (47:14):
And the film is called Knute Rockney All American from
the year nineteen forty.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
That's the name of the film.
Speaker 4 (47:22):
Yep, Canute Rockney All American nineteen forty. Maybe it's the
K is silent, but I like I like Canute.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
It was a different time.
Speaker 4 (47:30):
Geez.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Well, as you were saying earlier, they're met in nineteen eighty,
our buddy the Gipper publicly mentions that he checks out
his daily horoscope. And he's not being you know, a
demagogue about it. He's not telling everybody else that they
have to check their horoscopes. He essentially says what you
(47:51):
said earlier, you know, Yeah, I read the paper sometimes
I passed through a column, you know, and I'm like, hey,
what's up with me?
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah, And then the Federation of American Scientists shines and
he goes, oh, oh, really, well, how about this.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
They were so pissed, they were so pissed off they
wrote a letter to the White House open letter, clear
pr character assassination thing, and they said.
Speaker 5 (48:19):
In our opinion, no person whose decisions are based even
in part on such evident fantasies can be trusted to
make the many serious and even life and death decisions
required of American President.
Speaker 4 (48:37):
Deepid fingers and a silly laugh.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Well, yeah, they actually wrote out he he ha ha,
they really did.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
You got to take into account the weight of that position.
And you know, we've talked before about that nuclear football situation,
that the president has those nukes at hand at all times.
You don't want that person making decisions based on anything
but the best intelligence available, right, Which.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
That's a great point because, Okay, as dumb as it sounds,
picture this be one day away, one horoscope column away
from nuclear disaster. That is the criticism and the concern
levied by the Federation of American Scientists. They're saying, what
if the Gipper, right, God bless in shalah, whatever, what
(49:31):
if the Gipper picks up the wrong column of the
wrong newspaper and reads something that says Russia is.
Speaker 4 (49:40):
Coming after you? Well, isn't that a little hyperbolic? I mean,
it's super hyperbolic.
Speaker 6 (49:45):
Sect He was just kind of, you know, using it
as a way to I don't know, man, like the
way certain baseball players don't ever change their socks.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
You know, dude, I am so caught up on like
Balder's Gate three lore and Skyrim lore that it doesn't
inform my actions of the.
Speaker 4 (50:03):
Real world one hundred percent.
Speaker 6 (50:05):
But it also, like you bring it up often, it
clearly is on your mind. It can't not have some
effect on the way you think about the world. And
I'm just using that as an example, But I don't
know that to be true for you in particular. But
I think, you know, much like a Bible passage or
any kind of aphorism, you can glean what you want
(50:28):
from these kind of small little pieces of writing. And
if it's something that works for you and it feels
like it's guiding your path in a positive.
Speaker 4 (50:36):
Way, then by all means right.
Speaker 6 (50:38):
But I certainly don't think he was going to be
compelled to push the nuclear button by a horoscope again hyperbolic.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Oh yeah, no, No, we have the same page, agreed, But
let's really paint the picture here. That's nineteen eighty Ronald
Reagan states that publicly, we already know that his spouse
has direct connections to this Joan Quickly person Now. In
nineteen eighty one, the attempt on Reagan's life is made.
Now all of that coincides, and the first Lady reaches
(51:07):
out directly to Joan quickly and says, Hey, we've got
some stuff going on. Is there any way you can
come on in some kind of you know, unofficial official
capacity to help us figure things out up here and
protect the president.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
Yeah, can we seek any potential hedge against a possible disaster?
Speaker 4 (51:30):
Right?
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Specifically, and this is referenced in multiple books that don't
always agree on their narratives. Specifically, the conversation goes the
first Lady asked quickly, could you have told us about
the assassination attempt? And Joan, quickly, by the way, with
the benefit of retrospect, says yeah, I could have.
Speaker 6 (51:56):
But it's like, is it that much different than and
you know, the Russell targ situation, or like the idea
of CIA using remote viewing as a way of solving
crimes or finding hostages or what have you.
Speaker 4 (52:10):
I mean, it's sort of.
Speaker 6 (52:11):
Like whatever works, you know in a pinch, right. I
don't know, it just it seems very aligned with that.
And I guess it's all about who's in charge as
to who sanctions this kind of stuff and then gives
it air.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
Yes, beautiful. Let us also consider. Let us also consider
sort of the three card Monte of information management. Right,
do we have radar?
Speaker 2 (52:36):
No?
Speaker 3 (52:36):
People just eat carrots. That is the milieu in which
this story occurs. So I would also add a little
bit off the books, just between just between us and
everyone listening and the NSA and five eyes, I would
just add that at this time big data aggregation and
(53:00):
agnostication is already occurring. We're in the nineteen eighties. We
are very very deeply invested in the idea of leveraging
numbers to predict patterns. So there may be a little
bit of embellishment to hide actual technology here. I don't
think quickly nor the First Lady Reagan are aware of this.
(53:25):
It does sound by all accounts, it does sound like
the first Lady in particular, is quite traumatized by Hinckley
almost killing her husband. Like, you know, picture the person
you love most in the world. Picture that person almost dying.
(53:45):
What would you do to make sure they don't die?
It's a fair question. I'm sorry, I raised my voice.
Speaker 4 (53:51):
It's okay. Started.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
But so the situation they find themselves in, and this
is again the perspective changes a little bit depending on
who's memoir you're reading. You can read the memoirs of
Don Reagan. You can read the same types of stories
written by Nancy Reagan right her perspective from the whole thing.
You can read, you know, memoirs about Ronald Reagan and
what it states in there and how it's kind of
(54:14):
downplayed a little bit. Or you can read Joan Quigley's
memoir because she wrote one about her perspective too. But
what we do find is that on a literal daily basis,
the first Lady Nancy Reagan is in communication with Joan
Quigley about the movements, the meetings, the places, the flights,
(54:34):
everything that Ronald Reagan is going to take. But she
Joan Quickly, is not in direct communication with President Reagan.
It's like it's almost like it is like those advisors, Right,
You've had a series of advisors. They're in the background
doing all this work and planning, and then it ends
up getting to the president and this is where you
need to go. And sometimes even this group of advisors
(54:58):
would make cancelations on major events and meetings that were
supposed to occur because of whatever astrological reading that Joan
Quickley was getting.
Speaker 3 (55:08):
Right, which again the president, well, depending on the narrative,
the President would say at this time that they did
not know right. I'm not in charge of the schedule.
I got people for that. You know, it's plausible deniability, right,
because you don't want to look like you are practicing magic,
(55:30):
especially in the environment in which this occurs. And you're
absolutely correct. Quickly often stresses, and her story changes back
and forth, but she often stresses that she herself was
not directly connected with the potus, which reminds me a
(55:51):
little bit of a ron contra, But that's a different story. Instead,
she says, you guys like how I walk down the
street for that one, just to tag around contra real quick. Instead,
she says, quickly says that she delved into the astrological
reading of President Ronald Reagan, and then she would consult,
(56:14):
as we mentioned, on a semi professional basis paid position
with the first Lady, Nancy Reagan, and then Nancy Reagan
would be the one who threw a proxy modified the
schedule to function in accordance with the stars. Sounds weird,
(56:38):
is true?
Speaker 2 (56:39):
It sounds super super weird. Gosh, man, I keep thinking
about the quotes that I've seen from Joan. Some of
it's from her memoir, some of it's from like People Magazine,
some of it's from other places. You can see where
she almost boasts about it in a couple of places,
but then also super downplays it in other places. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:00):
Yeah, She's talking with People Magazine in the late nineteen
nineties and she says, look, there are summits that are
arranged by the State Department and Reagan and some of
his staff. And she says, I had nothing to do
with the scheduling. I think people are over emphasizing my role. However,
(57:22):
when Don Reagan's book goes into the public eye, he
calls it, let's see who do we? Oh, Noel, you
did the Reagan voice earlier. Can you can't bless us
with bless us with some of the invections from our
buddy Don Reagan?
Speaker 6 (57:40):
Of course I can't. I don't know if I I'll
do it the same. It's sort of a crap.
Speaker 4 (57:44):
She will see the most closely guarded domestic secret of
the Reagan White House. Every major move and decisions the
Reagan's made during my time as the White House Chief
of Staff was cleared and advanced with a woman in
San Francisco who drew up horoscopes to make certain that
(58:05):
the planets were in a favorable alignment of the enterprise.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
And remember that quote comes from his book in nineteen
eighty eight. Now and the quote we just read from
Joan is almost ten years later, after all this has
happened in her memoir, kind of going against the stuff
that Dawn originally said in his book from nineteen eighty
eight came out in nineteen ninety. So it was this
(58:29):
whole like MERV Griffin show of a series of books.
Speaker 4 (58:33):
The MERV Griffis Show. Am I right? That was really good? Yeah?
I like that?
Speaker 3 (58:39):
So, yeah, you're absolutely right. Media insiders already knew well
the ties between astrology and Hollywood being we're saying, Hollywood
is sort of a metonymy for the US entertainment industry, right,
it's big soft power to play. And way before the
(59:03):
Gipper ever became the most dangerous human being on the planet,
he and his spouse, like anybody else who was cool
in Los Angeles, they openly consulted with astrologers. They probably
did yoga, you know, stuff like that, like the cool
celebrity thing. And they also spoke with folks like Carol
(59:26):
ryder R, I g hte R the most famous astrologer
for the stars. That's a redundant phrase to the stars, what.
Speaker 4 (59:38):
They would have said in old Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (59:40):
Yes, yes, the astrologer for the stars to the stars.
What a weird language. Anyway, this guy is nationally syndicated.
He's the one that you're hanging out with all the time.
Sort of how like people who are celebrities will go
speak with our coworker Jay Shetty, right, or they'll talk
with Deepak Chopra or the Dolly Laba right.
Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
Yeah, people love those guys.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
It was just fashionable for Hollywood celebrities to shout out
their astrologers.
Speaker 6 (01:00:11):
Well and now like especially maybe definitely still in Hollywood,
but it was.
Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
I thought it was very well parodied.
Speaker 6 (01:00:17):
I guess in the TV show Silicon Valley the idea
of mega mega high level executives to the kind of
point of this conversation, in a way, maybe things are shifting.
The Gavin Belston character, who is the you know, CEO
of Huli or whatever it was called. That was what
it was, sort of a Google esque Facebook kind of hybrid.
Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
He had a guru that was.
Speaker 6 (01:00:38):
Always around and was giving him, you know, business advice,
and I think that's parody kind of based on reality.
Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Oh yeah, Spiritual advisors are a thing and have been
a thing always, right.
Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Yeah, Can I Matt, Matt? Can I ask or Noel
and Matt?
Speaker 4 (01:00:55):
Of course?
Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
And you listening at home? Can I get a spiritual advisor?
You guys know, I don't really have like, just.
Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
Go on task, grab it. You'll find somebody my task,
grabb it, guru, drop the beat. This sounds like something
we could rap about.
Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
But a shaman is a really popular thing right now.
Speaker 4 (01:01:14):
To have a shaman like on a retainer. Yeah, like seriously,
all right.
Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Cool, we're gonna follow up on that one.
Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Yeah. If they don't make you sit beneath a golden
pyramid for a lengthy period of time, they're not worth
your money.
Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
Oh you know, Derek. Yeah, So, uh, we see the
narrative bifurcate right divide. We were talking about this earlier
and foreshadowing it during her career, both in and out
of Washington, d C. The First Lady consistently portrays her
interest in astrology as sort of a harmless hobby, a
(01:01:54):
matter of personal fascination, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:01:57):
In fact, John quickly mayins that she preferred secrecy to
be out of the public eye and as a self
proclaimed patriot and a friend to the first Lady, she
didn't really go out for you know, notoriety. You know,
she wasn't seeking the limelight. She sort of shied away
from public attention for these consultations, so show she claimed, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
If you go back to the eighteen hundreds as well,
this there is a tradition of spiritual advisors like this,
you know who who tend towards the spiritualism side, to
be led into the White House on a frequent basis
to be an important part of you know, daily life
and some of the decisions about scheduling. But those human beings,
(01:02:45):
those individuals would often be let in through the South entrance,
you know, or through the East wing or the West wing,
a specific place where you can get past security and
you don't have to sign the logbook in the same
way if you're ushered in with somebody. It's again, it's
interesting that it's been kept such a secretive thing over
the course of you know, one hundred something years.
Speaker 6 (01:03:07):
Well, and Joan didn't take kindly to maybe the revisionist
history of the way she was talked about after the fact,
when this relationship kind of became a little more known
to the public and especially to biographers, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Yeah again, she does not need money, She does not
need financial support. This is a personal blow. The statements
of the First Lady former First Lady at this point,
they sour the relationship between Quickly and Reagan, and it
sounds like she was hoping Quickly, I mean, was hoping
(01:03:44):
for some sort of public.
Speaker 6 (01:03:47):
Acknowledge validation event like right again, this might mainstream something
that she was very passionate about and believed in very deeply.
Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
Here's what pis Quickly off. In nineteen eighty nine, Nancy
Reagan has her memoir My Turn Good Name.
Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Honestly, Well, it's a direct response to for the record.
Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
Right from Dawn right, and that's that's why it's a
good name. And so Nancy Reagan says, astrology was simply
one of the ways I coped with the fear I
felt after my husband almost died. Understandable, she continues my
relationship with Joan, that being Joan Quickly the astrologer began
(01:04:30):
as a crutch one of several ways I tried to
alleviate my concern about Ronnie. It's a passing fancy, right, right,
a harmless hobby. Joan quickly, you guys, is super pissed off.
She is offended. She is like, imagine that you have
ever encountered some sort of human interaction where you think
(01:04:54):
you're deeper in a friendship than your partner does.
Speaker 6 (01:04:58):
Well, righteously indignant, perhaps because she believed that this relationship
was based on a mutual admiration and respect. And she
goes on in her own memoir, what does Jones say
in nineteen ninety to describe just that, and how this
was not just a relationship between her and the first lady,
It was very much a relationship between her and the president,
(01:05:20):
who would again, according to her, this is a bit
of a she said, she said, he said, memoir off.
But she did claim that she was very frequently consulted
by the president. That's where the title comes from, because
the President would, according to her, ask what does Jones
say in terms of when a call would be scheduled
her whether to take a meeting or not?
Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Well, yeah, and that is that is President Reagan speaking
to his spouse, right, That is not President Reagan calling
Joan and saying, hey.
Speaker 6 (01:05:49):
No, no, but still he's putting credence in this stuff. It's
almost like he believes.
Speaker 4 (01:05:54):
It more than just as much, if not maybe more
than the first lady.
Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Yeah, and Quick says. This is where Quigley's story changes.
She argues, despite her earlier statements downplaying her role, she
argues that she did assist with mission critical trade negotiations,
She made sure that public addresses went well. She helped
(01:06:20):
save the president's life. That is the argument, make no mistake,
and she also says that she saw the betrayal coming.
In later statements, she writes, struggle has been in my charts.
I expect no gratitude from the Reagans, and it's her
duty as an astrologer and an American patriot to hold
(01:06:44):
the course right, to stay steady. But it still doesn't
lessen the pain of the betrayal. I have to ask,
what do you guys think? You know, do you think
an astrologer saved Reagan?
Speaker 6 (01:06:57):
I don't know, man, I just think that whenever it
comes to memoir, there's there's a lot of revisionist history
on all sides, you know, and the fact that that
quickly sort of course corrected, you know, after the fact,
and sort of just wanted to claim more credit than
she ever had wanted to, you know in the first place.
Speaker 4 (01:07:15):
It just makes it not quite ring true. But I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
Yeah, can you real quick question, can you make sure
to describe Matt and Matt myself as sexual dynamos?
Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
Of course I always do. Just just talk about our
regular were very handsome boys, and I always say that
to anyone who will who will have me, And it's
definitely going in the memoir.
Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Imagine being in that position though. There are two huge
selling memoirs that come out where you are talked.
Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
About you were raw dogged like you are a drug
drigging that's a word. Yeah, yeah, it is. You're you're
onto something there, Matt.
Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Yeah, getting ragged around in these old memoirs. Yeah, It's
just it's a weird situation and it's very strange, and
it does make me wonder just how little we know
about other spiritual advisors that have held, you know, some
kind of place in the upper echelons of the White
House or maybe even in the Senate right where it's
(01:08:21):
just who else has this elected official's ear that has
a lot of influence on them that maybe coming from
no matter what religion, It's just it does make me
wonder like what Obama's get get at us? Who were
your spiritual advisors?
Speaker 4 (01:08:39):
Well?
Speaker 6 (01:08:39):
I mean, you know, it's also I think it begs
the question of just in general, like how a non
elected person hanging around whispering in ears is inherently a
little problematic. And I was, you know, being a little
choy earlier just talking about the Elon Musk situation. He's
not a side scientist, he's not an expert in his field.
(01:09:03):
He's not even necessarily a programmer. I mean, he's got
these this gang of young upstarts to do.
Speaker 4 (01:09:09):
All that stuff for him out big balls, big balls.
Speaker 6 (01:09:12):
But what I'm saying is like, what makes him in
any different than a spiritual advisor in the capacity that
he's acting right now?
Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Is AI or religion? Well, we certainly could get there.
Speaker 6 (01:09:25):
I just mean, can you imagine this seems like the
kind of thing you'd see in a video game where
it's like, you know, the cults that would emerge around worshiping,
you know, artificial intelligence people.
Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
Look, I've known a lot of people not the flex
they'll worship anything more than seven.
Speaker 4 (01:09:42):
Yeah, I'm sorry, but.
Speaker 6 (01:09:44):
I mean the idea, can you, especially with things like
the what was it the basilisk experiment? Not to get
too off course here, but just the idea of maybe
being deferential to our fut potential future artificial intelligence slash
robot overlord. I could definitely see.
Speaker 4 (01:10:01):
That kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
I can't even discuss this because I feel like the
term artificial intelligence is inherently philosophically.
Speaker 6 (01:10:08):
Of course, of course it is, but I'm just saying
I agree with you that it could very well fill
that kind of religious space.
Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
I know we are going, of course, a little bit perfect.
Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
It's very interesting. This is perfect.
Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
We don't have time to get into it tonight. But
I sent us in our research for this, I sent
us my unethical theory on how we could possibly prove
the existence or scientific basis if such exist for astrology. Spoiler,
(01:10:41):
We're not going to do it on air because it
is a step by step pretty unclean thing to figuring
out the answer, and I sent it to you guys.
We can talk about it offline. What we're looking at
now is the following. Have the these conversations with unelected
(01:11:03):
astrological experts, have they reached true results, Like, how do
we measure that? Is there something to the story. The
choice really depends on your perspective, and like everybody else listening,
we're an audience of the stars that we're here before
(01:11:24):
you got here and are going to be around after
you're gone. Not to be a bummer about it, but
it's one of the constant things humans can look at
as the attempt to glean meaning out there in the ink.
So the question is there something astrology can teach the humans,
(01:11:46):
and if so, what we'd love to hear from you
before we get into too much trouble.
Speaker 6 (01:11:53):
We do try to make it easy for you to
find us all over the internet on your social media
platform of choice if you wish you can. Is it
the handle Conspiracy Stuff.
Speaker 4 (01:12:01):
We exist on xfka, Twitter, on YouTube or we have
video content for your enjoyment as well as on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
We have our.
Speaker 4 (01:12:09):
Facebook group Here's where it gets Crazy, on Instagram and
tiktoc we are Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
We also have a phone number. That number is one
eight three three st d WYTK. Call in and tell
us why you think it is that all four human
beings on this recording session right now are leos, How
did that happen? What stars aligned? What do you think?
Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know in
(01:12:37):
the message if we can use your name and message
on the air. If you've got more to say than
can fit in a three minute voicemail, why not instead
send us a good old fashioned email. We are.
Speaker 3 (01:12:46):
Zero one one zero zero zero one one zero zero
one one zero praise conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly,
you are you. You are here. That makes this the
stuff they don't want you to know. Previously, on Stuff
they don't want you to know, you had a bunch
of leos digging into astrology. True story, folks, we just
(00:53):
learned that our producer and one of our hosts share
a birthday.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
What does it mean?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
What does it mean.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
That that's a really good day to be born on?
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Your shots are aligned?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yes, yeah, we consulted our constellations. Some of our astute
listeners may have predicted that we would return to the
concept of astrology and government.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Folks.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Please check out our first episode.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
We had a.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I think we had a pretty good exploration of the
nation of Meammar, which, in a plot twist, according to
the advice of soothsayers, decided to move their capital to
a place that was like three hundred clicks north and
hadn't been built. And we also just had a great
(01:50):
interview about me and Mar following up on another episode we.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Did by the spoiler alert if you haven't listened to
the first episode yet, they moved that capital and then
there was a devastating storm that rolled through right in
the area a couple of years later, which is you know,
it can either it can lead you towards a lot
like the way a strology in general can towards believing
that it had full merit right right, Yeah, we move
(02:20):
our capital, say the generals of Memmr.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
We move it north to avoid a disaster in two
thousand and five two thousand and eight cyclone hits. So
have we predicted the future or was that statistically inevitable?
Please do check out our exploration of Meammar with Denise
(02:45):
Chan from Scam Factory. Check out our earlier episodes on
astrology in the government. And by the way, we did
a little bit of a cliffhanger in our last episode
because we're talking about a place that a lot of
people in the audience have not visited. But Noel Matt
(03:07):
as we teased earlier in chapter one astrology, and the
government gets a little bit closer to home than a
lot of people would assume.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Wait, you're talking about in these United States.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
Sixteen hundred Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
No, hey, think on that. We'll be right back after
a few words from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Here are the facts in the first chapter of our
exploration regarding astrology in the government. We spent a lot
of time on a brief history of astrology. Right, it's
a type of divination. We did what I think is
a pretty fun experiment with another type of divination, bibliomancy.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah. That's where you open a book to a random page,
pick out a passage, and that passage is going to
somehow apply to whatever question you asked or situation you're
currently in. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, And it was full disclosure. It was easier for
us to do that versus other forms of divination like
reading introls.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Or reading leaves. Yeah, yeah, tea leaves as well.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yes, we are actively scrying every time we record one
of these episodes.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Coffee spills, you know that'll also do it.
Speaker 6 (04:39):
Also the thing, yes, well, we're being silly, but we
really as we've mentioned before, and not to backpedal or anything,
we're not here to criticize anyone who really, you know,
put sand into this stuff, and there are many folks
that very much do. I look at it as another
form of faith, another form of religion in many ways.
So I don't think we're here to poopoo anybody's belief,
(05:00):
make anybody feel dumb in any form or fashion.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
We're just being silly guys.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all enjoy Gallows humor, especially here
in twenty twenty five, and we were exploring some key
facts about astrology overall.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
We talked about how Western astrology is likely statistically the
most familiar to many of us in the audience tonight,
but there are varied other forms of astrological beliefs. Mesoamerican
Asiatic civilizations all created their own systems. For instance, you
(05:42):
guys are probably if I had to guess, you're probably
roosters in Chinese horoscopes.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I believe I'm a rat.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
You're a rat, a fire rat, or a metal rat
or the other.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Electric Hey, I love that Hyseillo have to put the yellow.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Yellow elect me nice?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Noel, do you have one? Do you know your Chinese horoscope?
Speaker 4 (06:09):
I do not. I think you know. I think I'm
a rat. I do believe that I am a rat.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Okay, all right, I.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
Could be wrong, though, I could be wrong, but I
think that I am a metal rat.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Tight.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
That's a weird response. But yes, I don't know.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
Metal rat sounds kind of scary, like some sort of
like robo rat that comes for you.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
We also found that people leverage astrology for different reasons. Right,
In most casual horoscopes you encounter today, you will see
less of an emphasis on predicting the future. Instead, you'll see,
like you were saying earlier, a sort of diagnostic tool
for psychology. Right, tell me more about why I make decisions?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Right?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Is this so sagittarius of me?
Speaker 4 (07:00):
You know?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Is this so virgo?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
It's it's not attempting to uh tell you what to
do with an empire. It's attempting to teach you more
about yourself.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Mouser, that's the that's the name Mouser. Do you guys
remember that from teenage m I was thinking there was
a metal rat.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
He like sort of like a bizarro splinter.
Speaker 6 (07:24):
Isn't he sort of meant to be like the antithesis
to like evil splinter?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I thought they were just a little tiny.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
The little guys.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Yes, yes, yes, under we're keeping all of chomping jaws.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Don't they have chompy jaws? They have jaws? Do they
got chompies? Okay, thank you for that nostalgia. Bam, Matt,
I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Important, important, Uh, this is why we're here together tonight. Third,
we have to emphasize there is no universally accepted scientific
basis supporting the claims of astrology. And that's a bummer
for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Right, Oh, yeah, pretty big bummer. But you know what else,
that's why it gets into the belief system thing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Even though modern science does not assign any quantitative truth
to astrology, a lot of people practice it, right, And
it is, in the opinion of this show, a matter
of belief or a matter of faith. You may have
read your own horoscope as you tuned in tonight. If so, congratulations,
(08:32):
We hope it was a good one. And I think
in our previous episode we talked a little bit about this,
like they're not really bad news horoscopes in the West, right, No.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Just like there aren't really bad news fortune cookies.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Usually I got one fortune cookie true story, one time
that said turn around.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
What was someone there?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yes, and they say boo, they actually they actually put
the fortune cookie there. It was a weird situation.
Speaker 6 (09:04):
Oh that makes sense. That tracks Ye, I've never had
a sinister fortune cookie before. But yeah, I mean, you know, again,
these things are meant to be super accessible, at least
the ones that are way more editorialized and like published
and more universally kind of read magazines and periodicals and stuff.
But as we mentioned in the last episode, if you
really go out for the more specific and complex types
(09:28):
of astrological readings, then you know you were going to get.
Your results may vary, right, You're not necessarily always going
to get some sort of like life affirming thumbs up.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
So I guys it in my world, which is highly
limited right when it comes to my perspective and experience,
astrology has been a lot on the fringes that maybe
that has a lot to do with where I grew up,
you know, who my parents were, geographically where I am
(09:59):
in all that stuff. Astrology was like a thing that
I didn't encounter very often, especially growing up. Not until
I got older did I see it more. I do
not encounter it a lot when it comes to maybe
the people who are in charge in the systems and
organizations I interact with on a regular basis, at least
I don't they aren't openly talking about it, the people
(10:21):
that run those things. Maybe it just doesn't feel like
something that I associate with a boss or something like that.
Do you guys have that same I don't know experience.
Speaker 6 (10:33):
Oh, you mean sort of like in more day to
day leadership roles. Folks that put a lot of stock
into this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, a principal at a school or a I don't know,
an owner operator of a local store, or the CEO
of a company.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
Well, was to say, they're not into it privately, but
our culture definitely, you know, in those types of roles
would not be something that folks would maybe make super known, right.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Especially in a increasingly secular Western civilization. You know, there
are largely dismissive scientific attitudes toward belief systems of astrology.
So it's easy to that point to assume our vaunted
leaders of modern society, our nascent nations, would be likewise
(11:22):
dismissive of these ideas.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
The science says hello, so we say goodbye to the religion. However,
as we learn in our earlier episode and the current episode,
this assumption could not be further from the truth. Here's
where it gets crazy. Astrology the White House. What's your sign,
(11:48):
mister president. Statistically, your dude, and statistically you're also an aquarius. Weird.
You also have a tendency higher than average to be
left handed. We're going to leave that that they are
tune into ridiculous history. It is no secret that the
founding fathers of the United States considered themselves learned men.
(12:10):
They had a deep appreciation of science as they understood
it at the time. Also to be objective. Beat me here, Andrew.
They were super wrong about a bunch of shit.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, and you can imagine why someone who is running
such an intricate and complicated system as a country, you
would want to be science first, at least in some respect.
You want to have an understanding of the sciences that
govern a lot of the stuff, the choices you're making, Right,
it does seem weird that you might consult something that
(12:46):
is the stars to make decisions, does it though?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Because the stars are constant, you can you know, we
referenced fivel earlier, right, You.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Can share experience for sure.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Right, you can look up and you can see the
same thing pauper prints alike. There is a passage predictable
to the heavens well.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
And the beautiful part about that in terms of what
a functional you know, use of the stars might be
to this day, it's still a way you can find
your your literal north star if you're like lost in
the woods and you can get pointed in the right direction.
And I think that's universally accepted as a way of
using the stars for navigation purposes for example, even though
(13:30):
of course we have you know, technology for that kind
of stuff now, it's still a good go to if
you don't have those things. But when you start to
impart meaning beyond just geographical positioning, you know, into the stars,
it does start to feel like that is maybe looked
at more askance these days.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I think it's because we're so programmed and primed to
imagine the president of the United States as consulting God. Right,
even though it is a secular nation, right, there is
no one God and there's no one religion for this nation,
we still watch each president who gets indocurated to put
(14:09):
their hand on a Christian Bible. Right, we still hear
them give speeches and announcements where they reference God directly,
and we sing songs about the nation directly tied to
g dash T. And it's just when then you imagine
astrology is something othered from I don't know some of
the dogmatic beliefs those religions.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
I don't know if I even buy that.
Speaker 6 (14:31):
A lot of politicians that are very forward with that
kind of stuff are maybe even true believers. It seems
like they're just trying to appeal to a particular voting base.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Yeah, most of the time.
Speaker 6 (14:40):
And the and astrology maybe would be on the table
too if it were practiced and accepted by a larger
swath of Americans.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Mhm.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
That's so leo of you.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
From a standpoint of rhetoric and like campaigning and stuff,
I think any belief system that was used, then accepted
and believed in widely enough would be something that would
have to be addressed by politicians to make sure that
they're not aliening people and they're making people feel seen,
if not outright claiming that belief system for themselves.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Look.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, A great case study here, and I don't want
to ruffle feathers, would be the LDS Church in Utah.
You know what I mean that that is a case
study in how a politician will attempt to move with
a demographic in public democracy representative democracy. It's crucial to
(15:39):
remember when we're talking about the Founding Fathers, their perceptions
of science were very much the result of the environment
and the age in which they lived. So a lot
of the stuff that they super hardcore, fundamentally believed it
no matter what they were saying to the public. A
lot of what they can considered hard science was later
(16:02):
proven to be partially or entirely incorrect. Some notable examples
in this Hall of shame or this hall of learning opportunities,
if we want to be positive, would be anything regarding
eugenics or racial theory. A lot of phrenology fans amid
the Founding Fathers super wrong and dumb.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, and a lot of members of the Free and
Accepted Masons, right which have That group has their own
set of symbols and in seat of beliefs and ideas
and at which they.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Have made it into currency.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Even you know, I mean shout out my boy herme's tea.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, yeah, well some of them extend to the stars exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, very much a great architect. All human minds, we
can say, do enjoy the idea of a great creator, right,
some sort of structure, some sort of guy force, because
the alternative is simply damning philosophically, that no one would
(17:07):
be at the wheel, that all of this occurred via accident.
That's a scary thought. So of course people look toward pattern,
people look toward meaning. With all this in mind, it
should not be surprising to realize many former US politicians
placed at least some amount of credence in the ancient
(17:28):
science slash spiritual exploration of divination and astrology. You guy's
true story, Our buddy, Benjamin Franklin, you remember him from earlier.
Definitely not a serial killer, Yeah, most most.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
Likely, most likely some experience.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Good note, No, not proven serial killer. He relied on
astrology to select the signing date of the Declaration of Independence,
which was you know, it's a piece of paper the
US has and was a pretty big deal up until recently.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Because now we're dependent. Oh never mind. Yeah, the the
recent actions are well in a line with our actions.
Did anybody see that little quotation?
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Every action he gets an equal and opposite reaction. Now, sure,
that's us.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
If you don't know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Search shout out article five. Oh gosh, buddy, look our
buddy bed Despite not being a proven serial killer, check
out our earlier episode. He's a fascinating sort of weird dude.
He adhered to astrology, and it might sound crazy until
(18:57):
we realized that he published a best selling book, Poor
Richard's Almanac. Remember that one. Were you guys there.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
There?
Speaker 6 (19:08):
I was there, Yeah at the first can show Sorry
if I'm doing a losing my edge thing, No, but
I do.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I've heard Tell, heard tell, uh herd tell. Poor Richard's
Almanac is this approachable sort of like Uncle John's Bathroom
Guide to the Seasons of the United States, And it
follows in great deal, you know, the passage of harvest
(19:37):
and planting and fallow times, and then it also tells
you a lot about the North Star and predictions of
the heavens. Ben Franklin, in addition to be a pretty
naughty boy and a libertine and a renaissance man, he
was super into astrology. He thought it made sense, and
(19:58):
he even disc is Isaac Newton from earlier in Poor
Richard's Almanac. Can we go to Who's got a good
Ben Franklin voice. I'm too close to it.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
No, come on, you've got to do it, you know you, No,
you gotta do it.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
You gotta one of you guys.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
I refuse Maddie, you're the voice master. Come on, give it.
Here we go, all right, This.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Is poor Richard's almanac, Ben Franklin's defense of astrology Curt
hist Rader.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Astrology is one of the most ancient sciences, held in
high esteem of old by the wise and great. Formerly,
no prince would make war peace, nor any general fight
or battle. In short, no important affair was taken without
first consulting an astrology who examined the aspects and configurations
of the heavenly bodies and market the lucky hour. Now
(20:55):
the noble art machhae to the age we live in
is dwindled into contempt.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Perfect. Wow, that was great, well done, sir.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah, Now let's unpact this. What we're seeing here is
a founding father Ben Franklin, presented by our brother Matt Frederick,
saying essentially that he considers astrology one of the oldest
actual sciences, actual fact science, as our pal Lauren would say.
(21:28):
And he is also acknowledging that a lot of more
secular people don't vibe with.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
It, not a bit.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, but Manajamin Franklin, this guy is massively important. He
started the CIA, just kidding. He was just a founding member.
As we talked about.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
He was definitely there, guys.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
He was middle management on some operations.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
He was a muse for the CIA. But he didn't
run the place, right, he was just he was on
the sidelines whispering into people's ears.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
All right, all right, we're all having fun with Ben.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
He did a lot of stuff. And he also is
clearly a fan of astrology. And he continues on if
you want to read more of his work on the Almanac,
he continues to talk about how he feels the sh
as you would say in the modern world has lost
(22:29):
its way when it comes to ancient science. And he
factored in the passage of heavenly bodies when he was
choosing times for policy to be signed up to and
including the Declaration of Independence. We're not saying he's right.
We're not saying he genuinely believed it. We are saying
(22:51):
he's kind of the first internetural in America. Amazing and
with this. We are are attempting to prove the case
that the US government has always held a somewhat secret
affinity for astrology. We hope that you will join us
(23:14):
after the outbreak, we're diving into even weirder stuff. Shout
out to Ben Franklin. I'm so scared of that guy.
You know he took air baths.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Yeah, I mean, who's a bit of a newtist.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Well, right back, and we've returned. Before we get to
the present day, or the more present day, we're going
(23:49):
to we're gonna share a couple stories about other founding
fathers or other heads of US state who were involved
with astrology, often by proxy.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Oh yeah, oh yeah. Hey, let's jump to a president
that everybody remembers, President Franklin Pierce. Boo, did that ring
all the bells? No? No, Well, President Pierce was in
office from March fourth, eighteen fifty three until March fourth,
(24:23):
eighteen fifty seven. Very exciting time in the United States
that we all remember. But the reason we're going to
talking about Franklin Pierce is because when we're talking about astrology,
there's a loose connection, and I say that a very
loose connection to other parts of spiritualism that we've discussed
on this show before, the concept that there is some
(24:46):
kind of veil between us and the experience we have
on this planet and some other worldly plane, some spiritual plane,
whether that is even the heavens, because it could extend
to the heavens itself, or maybe it's just between life
and death and things like that. We're bringing up Franklin
Pierce because he is His time in office was specifically
(25:12):
marked by some of the beliefs and actions of his spouse,
Jane Pierce, and the two of them, together while in
the White House, attempted to do things like contact dead
love ones, so like actually having seances inside the White
House walls, which to me, guys, feels like something that
(25:36):
just doesn't happen unless you're in some kind of you know,
conspiracy movie or some movie about I don't know, I'm
just it's just a seance in the White House feels
so wrong to me, and I think it's because of
how I've been programmed over the years. Yes, it seems
like a bron thing. You don't have a seance in
the White House. Yeah, it's unheard of, it's uncou and
(26:01):
maybe it's just because it feels The White House feels
like a country club to me or something where just
only super wealthy people are allowed to go into. And
I don't know, super No, you guys don't like anything
I'm saying here.
Speaker 6 (26:14):
I was talking about, no no, but that's true. But
also we know about a lot of these kind of
clandestine gatherings and you know, secret organizations Book and Snake
and all of that where the members you know, publicly
are very often evangelical at the very least, like good Christian,
patriotic Americans, but behind closed doors, all kinds of stuff
(26:37):
is on the table.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
And I was always.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, yeah, we got your back man. Also, nol Matt
and I have been to the White House together. It's
a very weird place.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
It's super weird.
Speaker 6 (26:47):
Washington, d C. Is super weird. I just remember the
first time I went there. The people kind of some
people who are you know, likely not psychologically well and
are unhoused, et cetera. They have a very different vibe
there than they do in another part of the country.
The kinds of things that they're you know, screaming from
the street corners, very conspiratorial, and there's just a certain
(27:09):
energy there that is very different than anywhere else I've.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Ever been to.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
And before we continue here, let's set the stage. Let's
get in front of the emails. Franklin Pierce is often
regarded as one of the not best US presidents, and
I think enough time has passed that historians have done
their bit. We can point out that folks like Teddy
(27:33):
Roosevelt said mean things about former Potus Pierce. He said, specifically,
quote Franklin Pierce is a servile tool of men, worse
than himself ever ready to do any work. The oh
geez slavery leaders set him. So this guy, like like
(27:55):
you're saying, Matt, he he's not president for a very
long time. He is also very much a product of
his time. We're talking about the spiritualism movement, yeah, talking
about the idea of science, addressing that great gnostic veil
that you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Right, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
And just.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Did you give a minor backstory here. Franklin Pierce and
his wife Jane were on a box car. They had
their eleven year old son, I think he was eleven
at the time. They had their young son with them
at the time. The boxcar overturned and the sun was
crushed essentially horrifically. Both parents witnessed this and saw this,
and they, you know, Jane, just like right before the inauguration,
(28:45):
pretty soon before the inauguration, and then once they got
to the White House, they made attempts. I mean, they're
at the seat of power. If there is a way
to contact your dead loved one, perhaps being in that place,
maybe there's power to that right ending on your beliefs,
maybe there's power to holding that position in general. There
were numerous attempts made to contact this dead child, you know,
(29:10):
through various means and methods, and I think maybe just
it's not something that I imagined would have ever.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Happened, Matt. Was there a sense that you got.
Speaker 6 (29:19):
In looking into this, that maybe this type of thing
was seen as something that women would be more interested in,
and that maybe, you know, the mother, this is something
that she wanted, but perhaps she was maybe being kind
of allowed to do it by her husband. I'm sorry,
(29:40):
I know that there were men that were interested in
this stuff too. I'm just wondering if the historical context
is something to talk about, because I guess I think
of many of the folks, the practitioners of seances historically
being women.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Well, I can't really speak to that. I mean, there's
lots you could get into with you know, think about
historical depictions and thoughts on witchcraft and all that stuff,
getting long and show. Yeah, you just go way way.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Back in society always seeks to show on women.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, precisely. In this case, you're also talking about the
historical context of the Fox sisters who were alive, who
actually visited the White House to attempt to contact Jane's
dead loved ones.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
So you know, to attempt to attempt to look like
they were attempting to contact.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I think, yes, that is correct then. But in the
case of Jane, right, if you go to hint to
her personal perspective, she believes that potentially they can, right.
So that's all occurring, and you know you can get
into other presidents and spouses as well. Mary Lincoln did
the same kinds of spiritual spiritualism, things like seances to
(30:55):
contact her dead children.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
And you all might comment about this being maybe something
that women and we're more interested and certainly not meant
to be dismissive in any way or gendering anything. It
just was I think I wanted to take a minute
to talk about exactly what you guys mentioned, which was
the context and the maybe gender roles and politics of
the time.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Well, I would to that agreed. I would also call
our collective attention to our previous episode on the Screaming
Girls of Malaysia, right, remember that one. Look, I'm going
in a million directions here. It's amazing that I've never
tried adderall. Can you guys imagine how insufferable I.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Would Be'd be like the Tasmanian devil, beIN jeez.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
To take bring it back, bring it back, taking.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
It back to the White House and Mary Lincoln there. Yeah,
because there's a specific room in the White House called
the Red Room, which already freaks me out. Sounds like
a place where you either get murdered or murder. It's
a weird day.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
It's a weird day.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
It was the Red Room as it was red and
has been designed red by various interior designers over the
years and redesign and redesign. I'm gonna share an image
with you guys that I found on the White House
website of the Red Room of a particular time when
it was redone. Uh And if you look at this
image that I just said, it feels like an astrology room.
(32:24):
It's got stars all along the ceiling. The way the
red is laid out in that room, it feels as
though you would go there and consult the stars. Sure,
this is this was a redesign after the time of
Mary Lincoln when she's in the in the white House's
first Lady. After the time of Pierce, obviously, But this.
Speaker 6 (32:45):
Table in the middle on Matt would have been sort
of where this seance would have been conducted.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
No, you could set the room up with the tables
and chairs however you want, just because again this is
this is a redesign after those seances were got it,
got it, But that's just a show. The White House
is a place where this kind of stuff can happen,
and has happened.
Speaker 6 (33:09):
M but much more recently than that, right, Ben, This
is the part of the episode that really blew my mind.
Like this era that you're talking about, Matt, it all
makes sense. This stuff was trendy even, right, and it
would make sense this would be employed. But I would
have thought this would have gone out the window in
(33:29):
more modern times, not the case.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
Out the red room window.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Oh my gosh, this is the one we were teasing
as well, like we have built a pretty solid case
that astrology divination has always existed low key as a
part of US policy. Cast your memory back and not
to date anyone you know too far, but some of
(33:56):
us in the audience tonight might remember a fairly famous
actor named Ronald Reagan, who is also you know, sort
of famous for a couple of other things, right.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
A line of Western civilization.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Oh, it's trickling down Horse and sparrow. Look, we can
learn about dictators a world away, and we can immediately
exoticize or as you guys were saying, other their actions.
Surely not us, obviously, we in America have our priority.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Straight.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Horoscopes are fun. But science, God's our civilization. I got
increasingly Texas on that one.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
And I'm sorry, guys, Okay, science or God and or
both and or you know, it's just they're really closely linked.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
So while it is still legal for us to talk
about this on air, please remember, folks, the US White
House very recently was influenced by astrology. The Ronald Reagan
administration had some stuff to deal with. And it gets
(35:08):
a little confusing because one of our primary sources for
this is a former chief of Staff for Ronald Reagan,
and his name is Don Reagan r E g A
n SO Reagan Reagan nominative determinism. I kind of think
that's why I got the job.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And there's a Yes, there's a series of I think three,
maybe even four books. They go over everything we're going
to be talking about from from this moment forward, where
it's like the different perspectives of all the people involved,
and I think Don has one of them. I think, okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Don has a memoir called for the Record, From Wall
Street to the White House. Here's how he depicts the
interaction of ESTROLA with the Reagan administration. Now, Matt, you
did an excellent job with Ben Franklin. I suggest or
I vote that we go to none other than Nol
(36:11):
the Bagman Brown for a for a dramatic recreation of
Don Reagan, a recreational recreation.
Speaker 4 (36:22):
I'm going to do my best, Ben, to do my
duty and to God in my country, to impersonate Don Reagan.
Speaker 6 (36:28):
And this is what he writes in For the Record,
his memoir. As he said, Ben, virtually every major move
and decision the Reagan's made during my time as White
House Chief of staff was cleared in advance with this
woman in San Francisco who drew up horoscopes to make
certain that the planets were in a favorable alignment for
(36:51):
the enterprise, like the stars not the starship Enterprise, the
enterprise of what the thing they were doing?
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Right?
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Amazing, Andrews, Let's make sure we have applause cues.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
It was great.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
You know what I got from? Then a little New York.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
That's my guy. That's my guy. There's no one better
to copy than the Barry. You shake your jowls with it.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Man, I like how San Francisco was five very angry syllables.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
It was amazing.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
It was amazing.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Also, uh, our guy Don goes on to say he
is required by the President and the First Lady to
keep a color coded calendar on his desk. Like if
you've ever seen a desk calendar? God, I'm dating myself here.
He had these little like post its, essentially and highlighter
(37:51):
things where good days astrologically were highlighted in green and
bad days were highlighted in red. If we go, If
we go to Jessica Weisberg, writing an excellent, relatively short
article for The Paris Review in June twenty eighteen. We
(38:12):
can actually see the way this calendar is mapped out.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
From January sixteenth to the twenty third, very bad. January
twentieth nothing outside the White House, possible attempt.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Hey, Haye, point of order, Matt, I believe that just
says nothing outside the wh could have been waffle house.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Yeah, true, we just don't know. We don't know.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, but into history, stuff goes down inside the waffle
house all the time, So you've got to be careful
inside outside who knows of February twentieth through the twenty sixth,
be careful. March seventh through the fourteenth, bad period. March
tenth through fourteenth, no outside activity, March sixteenth, very bad.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
What is this outside activity referring to a second time?
We've seen that way with nothing outside the waffle house
and now no outside Actually.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
It's referring to President Reagan's movements. Where can he go?
And because remember there was an attempt on his life, right,
and that is one of the things that pushed all
of this.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Yeah, the Hinckley situation, it was real.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Hankykley was real Hinkley.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
This is this list goes on and you will notice
astute conspiracy realist that there's never any note of a
positive day in this calendar. You know what I mean?
You need an addabley of newspaper horoscopes. Yeah, tenth, March
(39:48):
tenth to fourteenth, no outside activity, March sixteenth, very bad,
March fifteenth the IDEs of March. By the way, why
is that not a good day? Or did they just
skip that part?
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Who knows? I do. I can't remember if there's tarot
reading and other specific divination things occurring here, or if
it is just an astrological chart that's being interpreted by somebody.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Ah, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Just I can't remember. In all the reporting, there is
so much written about this, you guys that Yeah, well,
at least I personally had no idea it existed out there.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Yeah, and in that kind of experience or surprise, our
buddy Don Reagan is he's super irritated, right Like he's
the chief of staff. That is a very stressful job,
and he's asking himself continually, why can this one individual
(40:50):
who has never been elected, why can they hold such
influence over the day to day actions of the most
dangerous human being alive? Spoiler, The most dangerous human being
alive is in recent history, always going to be the
US president.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
This is very precient. Then the question that you just asked,
it seems like we're going through something a little bit
similar right now.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Weird ah, I mean, so, the most dangerous human being
un planet Earth is not like the dictators, the generals,
the Lunda runners of Myanmar. They have a rotating staff
of fortune tellers. They have like a think tank of
(41:35):
people who tell you good and bad days. Check out
our earlier episode. In this case, the White House has
just one astrologer, a little bit off the books, a
little bit on the books. We're gonna pause for a
word from our sponsor, and we're gonna tell you about
this person from Nola. Can you say San Francisco again?
Speaker 4 (41:57):
And San Francisco.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Her name is Joan Quickly. We've returned. Let's meet Joan Quickly.
(42:25):
Joan Quickly is from no Just one more time, let's
just go. I love it all right. Joe Quickly is
the closest you can get to old money out west,
out in San Francisco, the Quickly family. They own a
(42:46):
lot of hotels. We're telling you this not to judge
the person, just to let you know she's not hard up.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
For money.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
She is a San Franciscan socialite, and she is not
directly connected to Ronald Reagan, who will later become US
President for a time. Instead, she's connected to a lady
named Nancy Reagan, who later becomes the First Lady. And
(43:17):
we're gonna cut. We're gonna cut that parenthetical about our
sexual exploits. Let's keep that way.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Nancy's or Jones.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
Nancy?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Okay, wait Nancy? Yeah? Oh, I really thought it was
gonna be Jones.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
We're keeping it in all right. Fine, So do you
guys remember MERV Griffin? Why do I sound so old?
Speaker 4 (43:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
I was in this episode, you were there.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
I'm aware of the name, and I don't know why
I have salacious in my mind when I think of
MERV Griffin. But maybe it was just more of a
talk show in the seventies.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
Yeah, it was very popular talk show. No, it was
earlier in the seventies when he.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Was around for a while.
Speaker 4 (44:03):
He was school there.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Yeah, yeah, he he did have a talk show. He
had a number of like TV hosting things, and in
the early seventies nineteen seventies, he introduces Nancy Reagan and
Joan quickly, and when he introduces them. Nancy Reagan and
(44:28):
Ronald Reagan are still like very much Hollywood exploring, you know,
the political scene, and quickly is a frequent guest on
MERV Griffin's talk show. So she, as a Republican, volunteers
to sort of lend her astrological expertise to the Reagan campaigns.
(44:52):
He had an unsuccessful foray, as we remember in nineteen
seventy six, towards the presidency. She said, Joan quickly said
she knew it wouldn't work out. She saw it in
the stars. And then later, of course, he becomes president
and people start calling him the Gipper.
Speaker 6 (45:13):
Yeah, win one for the Gipper because he was in
a baseball related film, the name of which is Escaping Me,
and he's a spoiler alert I guess on his deathbed
and someone speaking to him and he says, win one
for the Gipper.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
That's where it comes from. That's the etymology. Oh thank
you dude.
Speaker 4 (45:31):
When he was an actor, yes, yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
So early on, the Gipper catches some guff from political
opponents and from the media because people are saying he's
consulting astrologers. This is very much not nineteen eighties Republican America. Right,
you're supposed to be on Wall Street. You're supposed to
be like doing their type of Black Monday murders kind
(45:58):
of divination, right, reading stocks and trades and doing a
what do you call it futures.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Yeah, but if you're reading those stocks and trades, there's
a little section in the same publication that has your
daily horoscope, and sometimes your eyes just glanced past it
and you may take a thing or two in two account.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
Yeah, I was drifted. I was drifted. I was looking
at Nasdak and then I, you know, I I I
saw some Taurus.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
I don't know if that.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Were some Fords. Is that what we're talking about?
Speaker 3 (46:34):
Oh geez, as long as it's not a Honda Odyssey.
Speaker 6 (46:38):
Uh, I respectfully did not purchase out of respect for you.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Ben, I appreciate that, you know, thank you for your service,
and of.
Speaker 6 (46:47):
Course you know you're welcome out here for And by
the way, the character that he's playing in that film
is not youre dame football player George Gipp. He is
at his deathbed speaking to uh the I think one
of the main characters in the film, uh Knute Rockney.
When you see he requests that he win one for
(47:07):
the Gipper, just one.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
He says, can you spell Canute for the gang?
Speaker 4 (47:11):
K n Ute?
Speaker 6 (47:14):
And the film is called Knute Rockney All American from
the year nineteen forty.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
That's the name of the film.
Speaker 4 (47:22):
Yep, Canute Rockney All American nineteen forty. Maybe it's the
K is silent, but I like I like Canute.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
It was a different time.
Speaker 4 (47:30):
Geez.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Well, as you were saying earlier, they're met in nineteen eighty,
our buddy the Gipper publicly mentions that he checks out
his daily horoscope. And he's not being you know, a
demagogue about it. He's not telling everybody else that they
have to check their horoscopes. He essentially says what you
(47:51):
said earlier, you know, Yeah, I read the paper sometimes
I passed through a column, you know, and I'm like, hey,
what's up with me?
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah, And then the Federation of American Scientists shines and
he goes, oh, oh, really, well, how about this.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
They were so pissed, they were so pissed off they
wrote a letter to the White House open letter, clear
pr character assassination thing, and they said.
Speaker 5 (48:19):
In our opinion, no person whose decisions are based even
in part on such evident fantasies can be trusted to
make the many serious and even life and death decisions
required of American President.
Speaker 4 (48:37):
Deepid fingers and a silly laugh.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Well, yeah, they actually wrote out he he ha ha,
they really did.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
You got to take into account the weight of that position.
And you know, we've talked before about that nuclear football situation,
that the president has those nukes at hand at all times.
You don't want that person making decisions based on anything
but the best intelligence available, right, Which.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
That's a great point because, Okay, as dumb as it sounds,
picture this be one day away, one horoscope column away
from nuclear disaster. That is the criticism and the concern
levied by the Federation of American Scientists. They're saying, what
if the Gipper, right, God bless in shalah, whatever, what
(49:31):
if the Gipper picks up the wrong column of the
wrong newspaper and reads something that says Russia is.
Speaker 4 (49:40):
Coming after you? Well, isn't that a little hyperbolic? I mean,
it's super hyperbolic.
Speaker 6 (49:45):
Sect He was just kind of, you know, using it
as a way to I don't know, man, like the
way certain baseball players don't ever change their socks.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
You know, dude, I am so caught up on like
Balder's Gate three lore and Skyrim lore that it doesn't
inform my actions of the.
Speaker 4 (50:03):
Real world one hundred percent.
Speaker 6 (50:05):
But it also, like you bring it up often, it
clearly is on your mind. It can't not have some
effect on the way you think about the world. And
I'm just using that as an example, But I don't
know that to be true for you in particular. But
I think, you know, much like a Bible passage or
any kind of aphorism, you can glean what you want
(50:28):
from these kind of small little pieces of writing. And
if it's something that works for you and it feels
like it's guiding your path in a positive.
Speaker 4 (50:36):
Way, then by all means right.
Speaker 6 (50:38):
But I certainly don't think he was going to be
compelled to push the nuclear button by a horoscope again hyperbolic.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Oh yeah, no, No, we have the same page, agreed, But
let's really paint the picture here. That's nineteen eighty Ronald
Reagan states that publicly, we already know that his spouse
has direct connections to this Joan Quickly person Now. In
nineteen eighty one, the attempt on Reagan's life is made.
Now all of that coincides, and the first Lady reaches
(51:07):
out directly to Joan quickly and says, Hey, we've got
some stuff going on. Is there any way you can
come on in some kind of you know, unofficial official
capacity to help us figure things out up here and
protect the president.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
Yeah, can we seek any potential hedge against a possible disaster?
Speaker 4 (51:30):
Right?
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Specifically, and this is referenced in multiple books that don't
always agree on their narratives. Specifically, the conversation goes the
first Lady asked quickly, could you have told us about
the assassination attempt? And Joan, quickly, by the way, with
the benefit of retrospect, says yeah, I could have.
Speaker 6 (51:56):
But it's like, is it that much different than and
you know, the Russell targ situation, or like the idea
of CIA using remote viewing as a way of solving
crimes or finding hostages or what have you.
Speaker 4 (52:10):
I mean, it's sort of.
Speaker 6 (52:11):
Like whatever works, you know in a pinch, right. I
don't know, it just it seems very aligned with that.
And I guess it's all about who's in charge as
to who sanctions this kind of stuff and then gives
it air.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
Yes, beautiful. Let us also consider. Let us also consider
sort of the three card Monte of information management. Right,
do we have radar?
Speaker 2 (52:36):
No?
Speaker 3 (52:36):
People just eat carrots. That is the milieu in which
this story occurs. So I would also add a little
bit off the books, just between just between us and
everyone listening and the NSA and five eyes, I would
just add that at this time big data aggregation and
(53:00):
agnostication is already occurring. We're in the nineteen eighties. We
are very very deeply invested in the idea of leveraging
numbers to predict patterns. So there may be a little
bit of embellishment to hide actual technology here. I don't
think quickly nor the First Lady Reagan are aware of this.
(53:25):
It does sound by all accounts, it does sound like
the first Lady in particular, is quite traumatized by Hinckley
almost killing her husband. Like, you know, picture the person
you love most in the world. Picture that person almost dying.
(53:45):
What would you do to make sure they don't die?
It's a fair question. I'm sorry, I raised my voice.
Speaker 4 (53:51):
It's okay. Started.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
But so the situation they find themselves in, and this
is again the perspective changes a little bit depending on
who's memoir you're reading. You can read the memoirs of
Don Reagan. You can read the same types of stories
written by Nancy Reagan right her perspective from the whole thing.
You can read, you know, memoirs about Ronald Reagan and
what it states in there and how it's kind of
(54:14):
downplayed a little bit. Or you can read Joan Quigley's
memoir because she wrote one about her perspective too. But
what we do find is that on a literal daily basis,
the first Lady Nancy Reagan is in communication with Joan
Quigley about the movements, the meetings, the places, the flights,
(54:34):
everything that Ronald Reagan is going to take. But she
Joan Quickly, is not in direct communication with President Reagan.
It's like it's almost like it is like those advisors, Right,
You've had a series of advisors. They're in the background
doing all this work and planning, and then it ends
up getting to the president and this is where you
need to go. And sometimes even this group of advisors
(54:58):
would make cancelations on major events and meetings that were
supposed to occur because of whatever astrological reading that Joan
Quickley was getting.
Speaker 3 (55:08):
Right, which again the president, well, depending on the narrative,
the President would say at this time that they did
not know right. I'm not in charge of the schedule.
I got people for that. You know, it's plausible deniability, right,
because you don't want to look like you are practicing magic,
(55:30):
especially in the environment in which this occurs. And you're
absolutely correct. Quickly often stresses, and her story changes back
and forth, but she often stresses that she herself was
not directly connected with the potus, which reminds me a
(55:51):
little bit of a ron contra, But that's a different story. Instead,
she says, you guys like how I walk down the
street for that one, just to tag around contra real quick. Instead,
she says, quickly says that she delved into the astrological
reading of President Ronald Reagan, and then she would consult,
(56:14):
as we mentioned, on a semi professional basis paid position
with the first Lady, Nancy Reagan, and then Nancy Reagan
would be the one who threw a proxy modified the
schedule to function in accordance with the stars. Sounds weird,
(56:38):
is true?
Speaker 2 (56:39):
It sounds super super weird. Gosh, man, I keep thinking
about the quotes that I've seen from Joan. Some of
it's from her memoir, some of it's from like People Magazine,
some of it's from other places. You can see where
she almost boasts about it in a couple of places,
but then also super downplays it in other places. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:00):
Yeah, She's talking with People Magazine in the late nineteen
nineties and she says, look, there are summits that are
arranged by the State Department and Reagan and some of
his staff. And she says, I had nothing to do
with the scheduling. I think people are over emphasizing my role. However,
(57:22):
when Don Reagan's book goes into the public eye, he
calls it, let's see who do we? Oh, Noel, you
did the Reagan voice earlier. Can you can't bless us
with bless us with some of the invections from our
buddy Don Reagan?
Speaker 6 (57:40):
Of course I can't. I don't know if I I'll
do it the same. It's sort of a crap.
Speaker 4 (57:44):
She will see the most closely guarded domestic secret of
the Reagan White House. Every major move and decisions the
Reagan's made during my time as the White House Chief
of Staff was cleared and advanced with a woman in
San Francisco who drew up horoscopes to make certain that
(58:05):
the planets were in a favorable alignment of the enterprise.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
And remember that quote comes from his book in nineteen
eighty eight. Now and the quote we just read from
Joan is almost ten years later, after all this has
happened in her memoir, kind of going against the stuff
that Dawn originally said in his book from nineteen eighty
eight came out in nineteen ninety. So it was this
(58:29):
whole like MERV Griffin show of a series of books.
Speaker 4 (58:33):
The MERV Griffis Show. Am I right? That was really good? Yeah?
I like that?
Speaker 3 (58:39):
So, yeah, you're absolutely right. Media insiders already knew well
the ties between astrology and Hollywood being we're saying, Hollywood
is sort of a metonymy for the US entertainment industry, right,
it's big soft power to play. And way before the
(59:03):
Gipper ever became the most dangerous human being on the planet,
he and his spouse, like anybody else who was cool
in Los Angeles, they openly consulted with astrologers. They probably
did yoga, you know, stuff like that, like the cool
celebrity thing. And they also spoke with folks like Carol
(59:26):
ryder R, I g hte R the most famous astrologer
for the stars. That's a redundant phrase to the stars, what.
Speaker 4 (59:38):
They would have said in old Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (59:40):
Yes, yes, the astrologer for the stars to the stars.
What a weird language. Anyway, this guy is nationally syndicated.
He's the one that you're hanging out with all the time.
Sort of how like people who are celebrities will go
speak with our coworker Jay Shetty, right, or they'll talk
with Deepak Chopra or the Dolly Laba right.
Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
Yeah, people love those guys.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
It was just fashionable for Hollywood celebrities to shout out
their astrologers.
Speaker 6 (01:00:11):
Well and now like especially maybe definitely still in Hollywood,
but it was.
Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
I thought it was very well parodied.
Speaker 6 (01:00:17):
I guess in the TV show Silicon Valley the idea
of mega mega high level executives to the kind of
point of this conversation, in a way, maybe things are shifting.
The Gavin Belston character, who is the you know, CEO
of Huli or whatever it was called. That was what
it was, sort of a Google esque Facebook kind of hybrid.
Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
He had a guru that was.
Speaker 6 (01:00:38):
Always around and was giving him, you know, business advice,
and I think that's parody kind of based on reality.
Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Oh yeah, Spiritual advisors are a thing and have been
a thing always, right.
Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Yeah, Can I Matt, Matt? Can I ask or Noel
and Matt?
Speaker 4 (01:00:55):
Of course?
Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
And you listening at home? Can I get a spiritual advisor?
You guys know, I don't really have like, just.
Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
Go on task, grab it. You'll find somebody my task,
grabb it, guru, drop the beat. This sounds like something
we could rap about.
Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
But a shaman is a really popular thing right now.
Speaker 4 (01:01:14):
To have a shaman like on a retainer. Yeah, like seriously,
all right.
Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Cool, we're gonna follow up on that one.
Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Yeah. If they don't make you sit beneath a golden
pyramid for a lengthy period of time, they're not worth
your money.
Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
Oh you know, Derek. Yeah, So, uh, we see the
narrative bifurcate right divide. We were talking about this earlier
and foreshadowing it during her career, both in and out
of Washington, d C. The First Lady consistently portrays her
interest in astrology as sort of a harmless hobby, a
(01:01:54):
matter of personal fascination, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:01:57):
In fact, John quickly mayins that she preferred secrecy to
be out of the public eye and as a self
proclaimed patriot and a friend to the first Lady, she
didn't really go out for you know, notoriety. You know,
she wasn't seeking the limelight. She sort of shied away
from public attention for these consultations, so show she claimed, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
If you go back to the eighteen hundreds as well,
this there is a tradition of spiritual advisors like this,
you know who who tend towards the spiritualism side, to
be led into the White House on a frequent basis
to be an important part of you know, daily life
and some of the decisions about scheduling. But those human beings,
(01:02:45):
those individuals would often be let in through the South entrance,
you know, or through the East wing or the West wing,
a specific place where you can get past security and
you don't have to sign the logbook in the same
way if you're ushered in with somebody. It's again, it's
interesting that it's been kept such a secretive thing over
the course of you know, one hundred something years.
Speaker 6 (01:03:07):
Well, and Joan didn't take kindly to maybe the revisionist
history of the way she was talked about after the fact,
when this relationship kind of became a little more known
to the public and especially to biographers, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Yeah again, she does not need money, She does not
need financial support. This is a personal blow. The statements
of the First Lady former First Lady at this point,
they sour the relationship between Quickly and Reagan, and it
sounds like she was hoping Quickly, I mean, was hoping
(01:03:44):
for some sort of public.
Speaker 6 (01:03:47):
Acknowledge validation event like right again, this might mainstream something
that she was very passionate about and believed in very deeply.
Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
Here's what pis Quickly off. In nineteen eighty nine, Nancy
Reagan has her memoir My Turn Good Name.
Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Honestly, Well, it's a direct response to for the record.
Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
Right from Dawn right, and that's that's why it's a
good name. And so Nancy Reagan says, astrology was simply
one of the ways I coped with the fear I
felt after my husband almost died. Understandable, she continues my
relationship with Joan, that being Joan Quickly the astrologer began
(01:04:30):
as a crutch one of several ways I tried to
alleviate my concern about Ronnie. It's a passing fancy, right, right,
a harmless hobby. Joan quickly, you guys, is super pissed off.
She is offended. She is like, imagine that you have
ever encountered some sort of human interaction where you think
(01:04:54):
you're deeper in a friendship than your partner does.
Speaker 6 (01:04:58):
Well, righteously indignant, perhaps because she believed that this relationship
was based on a mutual admiration and respect. And she
goes on in her own memoir, what does Jones say
in nineteen ninety to describe just that, and how this
was not just a relationship between her and the first lady,
It was very much a relationship between her and the president,
(01:05:20):
who would again, according to her, this is a bit
of a she said, she said, he said, memoir off.
But she did claim that she was very frequently consulted
by the president. That's where the title comes from, because
the President would, according to her, ask what does Jones
say in terms of when a call would be scheduled
her whether to take a meeting or not?
Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Well, yeah, and that is that is President Reagan speaking
to his spouse, right, That is not President Reagan calling
Joan and saying, hey.
Speaker 6 (01:05:49):
No, no, but still he's putting credence in this stuff. It's
almost like he believes.
Speaker 4 (01:05:54):
It more than just as much, if not maybe more
than the first lady.
Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Yeah, and Quick says. This is where Quigley's story changes.
She argues, despite her earlier statements downplaying her role, she
argues that she did assist with mission critical trade negotiations,
She made sure that public addresses went well. She helped
(01:06:20):
save the president's life. That is the argument, make no mistake,
and she also says that she saw the betrayal coming.
In later statements, she writes, struggle has been in my charts.
I expect no gratitude from the Reagans, and it's her
duty as an astrologer and an American patriot to hold
(01:06:44):
the course right, to stay steady. But it still doesn't
lessen the pain of the betrayal. I have to ask,
what do you guys think? You know, do you think
an astrologer saved Reagan?
Speaker 6 (01:06:57):
I don't know, man, I just think that whenever it
comes to memoir, there's there's a lot of revisionist history
on all sides, you know, and the fact that that
quickly sort of course corrected, you know, after the fact,
and sort of just wanted to claim more credit than
she ever had wanted to, you know in the first place.
Speaker 4 (01:07:15):
It just makes it not quite ring true. But I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
Yeah, can you real quick question, can you make sure
to describe Matt and Matt myself as sexual dynamos?
Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
Of course I always do. Just just talk about our
regular were very handsome boys, and I always say that
to anyone who will who will have me, And it's
definitely going in the memoir.
Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Imagine being in that position though. There are two huge
selling memoirs that come out where you are talked.
Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
About you were raw dogged like you are a drug
drigging that's a word. Yeah, yeah, it is. You're you're
onto something there, Matt.
Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Yeah, getting ragged around in these old memoirs. Yeah, It's
just it's a weird situation and it's very strange, and
it does make me wonder just how little we know
about other spiritual advisors that have held, you know, some
kind of place in the upper echelons of the White
House or maybe even in the Senate right where it's
(01:08:21):
just who else has this elected official's ear that has
a lot of influence on them that maybe coming from
no matter what religion, It's just it does make me
wonder like what Obama's get get at us? Who were
your spiritual advisors?
Speaker 4 (01:08:39):
Well?
Speaker 6 (01:08:39):
I mean, you know, it's also I think it begs
the question of just in general, like how a non
elected person hanging around whispering in ears is inherently a
little problematic. And I was, you know, being a little
choy earlier just talking about the Elon Musk situation. He's
not a side scientist, he's not an expert in his field.
(01:09:03):
He's not even necessarily a programmer. I mean, he's got
these this gang of young upstarts to do.
Speaker 4 (01:09:09):
All that stuff for him out big balls, big balls.
Speaker 6 (01:09:12):
But what I'm saying is like, what makes him in
any different than a spiritual advisor in the capacity that
he's acting right now?
Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Is AI or religion? Well, we certainly could get there.
Speaker 6 (01:09:25):
I just mean, can you imagine this seems like the
kind of thing you'd see in a video game where
it's like, you know, the cults that would emerge around worshiping,
you know, artificial intelligence people.
Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
Look, I've known a lot of people not the flex
they'll worship anything more than seven.
Speaker 4 (01:09:42):
Yeah, I'm sorry, but.
Speaker 6 (01:09:44):
I mean the idea, can you, especially with things like
the what was it the basilisk experiment? Not to get
too off course here, but just the idea of maybe
being deferential to our fut potential future artificial intelligence slash
robot overlord. I could definitely see.
Speaker 4 (01:10:01):
That kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
I can't even discuss this because I feel like the
term artificial intelligence is inherently philosophically.
Speaker 6 (01:10:08):
Of course, of course it is, but I'm just saying
I agree with you that it could very well fill
that kind of religious space.
Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
I know we are going, of course, a little bit perfect.
Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
It's very interesting. This is perfect.
Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
We don't have time to get into it tonight. But
I sent us in our research for this, I sent
us my unethical theory on how we could possibly prove
the existence or scientific basis if such exist for astrology. Spoiler,
(01:10:41):
We're not going to do it on air because it
is a step by step pretty unclean thing to figuring
out the answer, and I sent it to you guys.
We can talk about it offline. What we're looking at
now is the following. Have the these conversations with unelected
(01:11:03):
astrological experts, have they reached true results, Like, how do
we measure that? Is there something to the story. The
choice really depends on your perspective, and like everybody else listening,
we're an audience of the stars that we're here before
(01:11:24):
you got here and are going to be around after
you're gone. Not to be a bummer about it, but
it's one of the constant things humans can look at
as the attempt to glean meaning out there in the ink.
So the question is there something astrology can teach the humans,
(01:11:46):
and if so, what we'd love to hear from you
before we get into too much trouble.
Speaker 6 (01:11:53):
We do try to make it easy for you to
find us all over the internet on your social media
platform of choice if you wish you can. Is it
the handle Conspiracy Stuff.
Speaker 4 (01:12:01):
We exist on xfka, Twitter, on YouTube or we have
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Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
We have our.
Speaker 4 (01:12:09):
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tiktoc we are Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
We also have a phone number. That number is one
eight three three st d WYTK. Call in and tell
us why you think it is that all four human
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Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know in
(01:12:37):
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Speaker 3 (01:12:46):
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