May 23, 2023 • 60 mins
Nowadays, most people in the West associate exorcism with horror movies instead of real-life terror. However, people around the world still feel that they have been possessed, and experts from various faiths across the planet still conduct exorcisms in the modern day. Join the guys as they delve into the story of the Catholic organization founded to fight possession: The International Association of Exorcists.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the show, fellow conspiracy realist Matt. This classic
episode has me wondering should we should we be doing exorcisms?
Should we get back into that.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Yeah, I mean it's been too long, first of all.
Second of all, it's so much fun. Third of all,
I don't know. I would love to have an exorcism
performed on me, just to like test and see if
there's any demonic stuff going on in.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Here, just like like a spiritual physical.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, yeah, like I don't even know it's happening or anybody,
and you just test it out, see what happens. If
you get anything, well you win.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hold this crossing cough. So the idea of an exorcism,
this exists throughout history, throughout the world, some version of
this in the West. The Catholic concept of an exorcism
is probably the thing that's most familiar to people like
you know, in the nineteen seventy three horror film The Exorcists.
(01:03):
We were surprised a number of years ago to learn
that exorcisms are actually on the rise.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, they have a whole association that's international. Let's learn
about it.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Usually
that's Nol, but he's not here today, and we.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Promise that, as far as we know, our compatriot is
not possessed. We are, of course joined with our super producer,
Paul Decant. They call me Ben. You are you? And
that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.
The power of podcast compels us. Yes, it does to
(02:09):
perform certain rituals at certain times. And this is one
of our rituals that you and I have been doing
for a number of years. Matt. We we research something strange,
we may conduct an interview, we may travel somewhere, and
then we come together in this place and.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
With our Coca Cola holy water and pour it into
our mouths. So at least I do I think you have.
You've got straight up coffee today, which is just as good,
if not better.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
And our relics are with us, our microphones, our headphones.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Are our smelly pop filters.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
That was a subject of discussion before we dropped in.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Everybody uses them, and you know, sometimes you have coffee breath.
It's all good. Sometimes you have Coca cola breath strategy.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
By the way, as I'm pretty specific with this, I
try to stay away from the mic, you know, I
don't want to get right right on it. It's just
length voiceover. Yeah. And additionally, one could argue, if we
were to look at podcasting as a ritual or a
right that what you and I are doing now is incantation. Oh,
(03:26):
because we do spend you know, you and I especially
have spend a lot of time behind the scenes or
off air, off camera saying, you know what, how should
we approach an idea? Should we structure it? Is there
a power in formula and ritual and right? And we
(03:49):
think there is.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, at least to an extent or in a way,
because you expect it, you as a person receiving a
ritual in this sort or an incantation like this, I
don't know. It's it's almost as if it triggers a
thing that is already implanted in your brain, the pathways
(04:12):
that are already there because you kind of know what
it is. But then it's going to open up new
pathways that are connected to that one.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Right, That's the question that you might want to ask yourself,
longtime listeners, friends and neighbors, have we primed you? Have
we programmed you to anticipate certain stimuli and respond in
certain ways?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, the answer is yes. First time listeners, welcome to
the show. Hey, you hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Before we jump into today's topic, we want to start
with a quick quote that kind of sets up maybe
the framing of mind for some of the people who
think in the same way of these characters. Quote today,
the world does not turn from God because it is idolatrous. Rather,
it pursues pure atheism so as to put science on
(05:06):
the altar. And that's from Father Gabriel Amorth and he
is someone we will get to a little later.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Matt, what do you think of when you hear the
word exorcism.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I see images from film and television, mostly film movies,
the Exorciste in particular. I have very vivid images of
a body rising off of a bed of vomit, coming
from a mouth, of a discolored face, that is possession
(05:40):
in particular. And then when I think of exorcism, I
think of holy water, and I think of reading from
a Bible, reading the word of God. Other symbology, crosses,
artifacts of that sort, yeah, investments, Yes, the touching of hands.
(06:01):
That's what I see, a very Hollywood version of exorcism.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Agreed, you know, and I believe that that's something common.
You know, a lot of people, at least in the West,
when we hear the term exorcism, we think of, as
you said, Hollywood, a good horror film.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Well, yeah, because most of us haven't experienced a true exorcism,
or what would be considered a real exorcism.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
M m, right, at least in that specific Catholic framework,
right in the past. On this very show, almost four
years ago to the day, Wow, we covered the phenomenon
of exorcism in general, along with how it differs across
time and cultures. Will give a brief background of exorcism
(06:52):
and possession here, and for more in depth information, please
check out our earlier episode, Exorcisms Introduction. Not the most creative.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Title, eh, you know, that's exactly what it was.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Though it was it was I.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Think we did a pretty good job. I really liked
that episode.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I went back and listened to it and I was surprised.
Not that I expected it to be terrible, but twenty
fourteen was such a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Now, we were just learning what the show was.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right, We were like priest conducting our first Okay, all right, yeah,
we're gonna let that analogy go. So here are the facts,
the brief background broad stroke stuff, Matt and I will
give you. Here is the following. The practice of exorcism
predates the existence of all Abramaic religion, Judaism, Islam, Christianity,
(07:46):
all of it. This stuff was old beings by the
time Jesus Christ or Moses or any of the other
religious figures right of course, Muhammad and so on, before
anybody body else came into the fold, or the zeitgeist
of spiritual belief.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
That the concept of some kind of spirit entering a
corporeal body somehow and then taking it out.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, yeah, non consensually entering and being non consensually pooled
by the time the story of Jesus Christ casting spirits
into pigs came about, or by the time you know,
people heard that story, whether they heard it in an
oral tradition, whether they who knows, witnessed it themselves, or
(08:36):
whether they read about it in centuries or millennia later,
the concept of exorcism would have already been more than
familiar to the audience. In ancient Samaria and Babylon, exorcists
already played a prominent role somewhere between that of a
priest and a doctor. And it's pretty fascinating because the
(09:00):
rituals from what we know, of course, a lot of
this has lost the time, or publicly available knowledge has
been lost the time. The rituals would vary, but they
still relied on artifacts, techniques, and as you said, Matt,
the main goal was to drive out a spirit. They
(09:20):
might not have used the word demon, maybe more like spirit.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
A spirit that, yeah, again non consensually was there, probably
of a bad nature, a negative nature, right.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And this could be in some cases, this could be
a human spirit, a ghost, right, an angry ancestor. In
other cases, though in a way that's more familiar with
us now in the modern day, it would be something
that never was human, yeah, a.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Monster from another plain kind of exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah. And they would concoct these magical substances or potions,
these relics and artifacts composed of animals or plants or
different stones that were thought to have various powers. In
the world of sympathetic magic, we're talking about iron from meteors, reeds, flower,
(10:17):
animal hair. Birds were really big in this time, and
birds still are symbolically hugely important, right.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Oh. Yeah, They're thought to possess, or they have been
for a long time, thought to possess, some kind of
supernatural power, especially white owls. White owls, and you have
to imagine that image would be startling in a way.
And I guess you can just imagine viewing one just
perch outside a window or something, or perched outside of
(10:49):
a home, just sitting there in a tree and gazing.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Now, we have both lived outside of urban areas in
the past, right, and I believe I believe Paul has
as well. I have to admit, even even if someone
without Nole's crippling fear of all things avy and when
(11:16):
I unexpectedly see a large predatory bird, yeah, I mean
that's a double take moment. Yeah, I'm going to say
I'm startled, not frightened, because usually that for a long
time now, I've been a bit too large for the
average bird to attack. But have you ever been in
a situation where you hear a slight rustle and you
(11:40):
turn to the left and there's a hawk or a
falcon or something.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, I have to really fast stories. H yeah, yeah, Okay.
So the other day I was driving to work in
the morning. It was very foggy outside. It was the
day I posted on our Instagram a couple of pictures
of Atlanta in this heavy, misty fog conspiracy stuff show.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Feel free to follow it.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yes, Well, as I got to the stop sign in
my neighborhood, I looked to my right and I see
I'm not really sure what it is at first, and
then I realize, oh, it is a large brown hawk,
very large, about the size of a cat, a large cat,
and it has its wings wrapped around something. It's sitting
or standing on the ground, and something is like kind
(12:24):
of twitching and moving underneath its wings, and you can
see it kind of readjusting itself, and then it opens
its wings a little bit. It sends its beak down
really fast around the neck of this squirrel that it's
got trapped, and then it's holding it down still, and
I swear it looks up and it looks right at
my car, because I just stop and I just stare
(12:44):
at it for a little while. It stares at me,
and then I go, all right, I'm moving on and
I'm driving carefully just in case this is an omen
of some sort. The other one is in my backyard there,
it's a fenced in area, there is a fam of
large owls. And I didn't realize this, oh wow, until
one night I took my small dock's in terrier mix
(13:06):
out in the back to go to the bathroom, Buddy, Buddy,
and I heard a sound that I was unfamiliar with.
I did not know what type of bird it was.
I didn't know anything. I just knew it was a
large bird and it was just above me in this
large oak tree.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Was it a vocalization?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It was a vocalization that I cannot reproduce.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And oh it sounded like a curse word. Huh yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
But it was so eerie, and I didn't know until
when I got this powerful flashlight out of my house
shined it up, and it was just this huge owl
perched on this tree. And it was again like just
staring down at the source of light at me. And
the feeling, even now in then twenty seventeen, was of
(13:51):
dread of some sort, you.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Know, And don't be fooled by the vocalization either, because
owls are some of the quietest predators birds. I can
completely understand where you're coming from. And that's so cool
that you live there, because you know your chances of
having any sort of rudent problem have just bottomed out.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yes, very very true. Anyway, that's enough on owls.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Oh, yes, yes, yes, And then you know things like
ravens would be thought to be messengers, yes, owls also,
But owls were more associated in these ancient times in Samaria,
at least with insidious powers, the powers of darkness and
death and decay and evil. Right, whereas ravens, ravens were
(14:44):
like bad news, but owls, owls were terrible news. Then
of course you could probably see this coming, folks. The
idea of water water symbolized the presence of Ea, the
god of water, so it was often sprinkled on the
victim of a possession during incantations to symbolize the cleansing
(15:08):
of the victim. Right, the influence of the god of
water taking away the contamination of this evil.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Spirit, symbol we see with modern day baptisms.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Right exactly. Hole in one spittle, by the way, was
especially important. It was thought to be a potent toxin
when used against demons. Saliva wow, So that's why several
ancient texts refer to these sorcerer priests as kasapum. However
it's pronounced which was Arabic four to poison, and the
(15:41):
Smerian equivalent was mints saliva or spittle wow, the idea
being the poisoned demons. And as you pointed out, many
of the vestiges of these older practices can be seen
in exorcism rituals and rites around the world today. Incantations,
the use of sanctified or holy water, the use of
(16:01):
animals and relics. In this episode for the Strange phenomenon
will examine today, we're going to focus on Catholic perspectives
concerning exorcism. So what if we are asking the Catholic Church,
if we're hanging out with Pope Francis and we ask him,
(16:23):
what's exorcism, what does he say?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
He's going to say, the act of driving out or
warding off demons or evil spirits from persons, places or
things which are believed to be possessed or infested by them,
or are liable to become victims or instruments of their malice.
And that's according to the Catholic Encyclopedia right.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
That does sound like there would be a bit of
a complex sentence structure to generate off the dome, doesn't it.
While the treatment of this perceived conditioned spiritual possession may
vary from one culture to the next, the idea is
extraordinarily common, as we discussed in our previous episode, throughout history,
(17:05):
and the gist of it is pretty much the same
across time, culture, and space, and evil. Typically, non corporeal
entity or non physical entity invades a physical vessel. In
horror films or horror stories, this is often a person,
often a kid who turns really creepy, or an elderly person,
(17:26):
because those two ends of the mortality cycle of humanity
are the things that psychologically tend to creep people out
the most.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, well, and in a way are the weakest parts
of that bell curve.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
That's a great point. That is a really great point. Also, however,
places or objects may be considered infected. There's an excellent
article on our parent website, how Stuff Works. It's called
how Exorcisms Work, and they break down some of the
(18:00):
approaches the Catholic Church takes to exorcisms. This article, by
the way, is solely based on Catholicism, and we can't
stress it enough. Exorcism, possession. It is not a Catholic
thing alone. It's just something like if you hear about
(18:21):
it here in the US, you are most likely going
to hear about it through this lens. Anyhow, According to this,
the Catholic Church recognizes not one, but several types of exorcism,
and some of them may surprise you.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah. The first one is baptismal exorcism, and this is
when you bring an infant like a baby prior to
being officially baptized into the church. You bring it into
the church to cleanse it of the evil resulting from
its original sin, which is dark and away. But it's
also the least worrisome of the types of exorcism. The
(19:01):
second one is simple exorcism, and this is more of
a blessing really than pulling things out of it so much,
I guess in a way. But you're blessing a place
or a thing, so a physical object, to rid it
of some kind of evil infestation.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Right right, And you see similar this sort of thing
well qualifying as exorcism is something that you would see
in other cultures. Perhaps the idea that you may have
heard from some of your college roommates in the past
of burning sage to purify a place because something bad
happened there. Then, of course there's real exorcism, the real deal,
(19:43):
the one we all hear about performing the capital R
right of capital e exorcism to rid a living human
being a possession by a diabolical entity. And that brings
us to another question. How do you know whether someone's
being possessed? How can you tell the difference between someone
who's just been a real ahole versus someone who's become
(20:04):
an unwilling vessel for infernal forces of the you know,
the left hand of darkness. Right. According to the Church,
there are several telltale signs of demonic possession that anyone
can sense. In general, you don't have to be a
member of the clergy to notice these things. Speaking or
(20:27):
understanding languages which the person has never learned. It's different
from speaking in tongues gloss a alia, because that is
believed to be indicative of religious ecstasy, whereas speaking in
fluent Aramaic or something is considered to be a sign
(20:51):
that there's a different entity at the wheel of your mind.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yeah, the traditional speaking in tongues is it's just gibberish.
It does, it's not actual formations of words or sentences. Generally.
Then there's knowing or somehow revealing things that the person
has no way of knowing. It. Just if it was
regular times and this person just was existing in their life,
(21:15):
there's no way they could have known this clairvoyance.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yes, yeah, in physical strength beyond the person's natural physical makeup,
which is an interesting thing because we know in times
of great stress that can actually happen. Hysterical strength is
a thing to some degree. And then a violent aversion
to God, the Virgin Mary, the Cross, and other images
(21:40):
of the Catholic.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Faith yep, which again we have seen over and over.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
So where does that leave us today. We'll tell you
after a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And we're back. So today, exorcism remains the subject of
this intense interest across the world for peoples across the world,
both for believers that think exorcism is real and you're
actually bringing evil spirits out of a person and skeptics
who think it's just a strange ritual that's just stuck around.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
An historical artifact or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really
good point. Matt because one thing that you notice is
that even the people who you know, the people I
refer to them as pseudo skeptics, who are so into
their idea of being a skeptic that they have severely
(22:43):
crippled their ability to apply critical thinking, even those people
have a huge interest in the concept. Right. It's entertaining
in horror and in fiction, right, And it's also fascinating
(23:03):
just from an anthropological perspective. Right.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Oh yeah, with the quote we had at the top
of the show, it seems in this world of science
in which we exist right now, that exorcisms should have
just been left by the wayside, and they most certainly haven't.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Exactly. Yeah. Modern science often proposes that historical cases of
exorcism can be attributed to a number of different mundane causes,
including things like mental health issues that would not have
been recognized in the same framework through which we recognize
(23:43):
them today, stuff like schizophrenia, right, possibly dementia instance, or
even arguably in the case of the elderly Alzheimer's, anything
that seems to dramatically change someone behavior, their emotional state,
or distress them. Other undiagnosed, unrecognized diseases, genetic conditions, and
(24:09):
then the more complex, the more complex phenomenon of social
pressures or behavior running in contravention to social moras, norms,
or values of the time. Are you you know one
thing that would happen in patriarchal societies? Right? Are you
a woman who doesn't want to be in this arranged marriage? Yeah?
(24:33):
You must be possessed by the devil. How else would
you have a problem with this? It's not you, it's
this demon that said you shouldn't marry this fifty year
old man in your twelve It must be it must
be called the priest. So how far do we take
this idea today? Though? Are there literally modern exorcisms in
(24:55):
the Catholic Church spoiler alert yes, of course, But if so,
how seriously does the church take them? Here's where it
gets crazy again.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Like we said, while exorcism might seem like this artifact
of some you know, the bloody religious history that humanity
has experienced, it's still taken very seriously by the Catholic Church,
more seriously in fact, in recent decades than it had
been prior to that. There is this thing that this
(25:28):
episode is really all about, called the International Association of Exorcists.
And here let's let's talk about it. This is a
Roman Catholic organization, and it sounds ancient. It sounds like
something that would have been created in the fifteen hundreds,
the sixteen hundreds or something. But no, it wasn't founded
until the year nineteen ninety and there were six priests
(25:52):
that got together, including Father Gabriel Amorth with the quote
at the top of the show, and Father Jeremy Davies right.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Father Gabriel m Orth is someone that we touched upon
in a couple of previous episodes. He was born in
nineteen twenty five exorcists for the Diocese of Rome. He
claimed to have performed I believe over one hundred and
(26:22):
sixty thousands exorcisms.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Whoa yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
During his now he was a priest for decades and decades.
He was often called by reputable news sources the Vatican's
chief exorcists, which is more I think we of me
have said that as well. It turns out that's more
(26:48):
the translation, because he is exorcist for the Diocese of Rome,
but he's not. He wasn't. There's not some sort of
joint chiefs of staff for exorcism in Rome, and he's
not the guy with the most stars or the biggest
epaulets or whatever. He was a priest for years and
(27:13):
years before he became an official exorcist, and that's something
we see with a lot of Catholic priest It's not
something that people enter into on their first day of seminary.
He was a priest in nineteen fifty four and he
did not become an exorcist until nineteen eighty six, under
(27:34):
the tutelage of Candido Amantini. He loved the film The Exorcist.
I thought that was fascinating. He loved it because he
thought it was substantially correct, does based on true events,
and he thought the special effects were exaggerated. But he
picture him shrugging and going, you know, it's a movie.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
So he.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
In defense of this film, he said that he was
in an interview with a London Sunday Telegraph and he
stressed that people need to know what we do we
in this sense being exorcist. The different the different claims
of the number of exorcisms that Amor conducted. The reason
(28:24):
for that difference is that there's no central database for
the amount of exorcisms, either performed per year performed in total,
but We could make some guesses on some of this
stuff later, but that's why you hear his numbers differing.
(28:45):
In October two thousand, it was reported he had performed
over fifty thousand exorcisms. In twenty ten, he said the
number was seventy thousand, but by May of twenty thirteen
he said he had performed one hundred and sixty thousand
and over the course of his career. An important note here,
as we said, there are different types of exorcism. Yeah,
(29:08):
so that could count everything from praying for a bad
place to be cleansed of some sort of influence to
the stuff you would see in the film The Exorcist.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah. So this guy who has you know, had already
by the year nineteen ninety had a lot of experience
with exorcism. He and his buddies, his compatriots, along with
Jeremy Davies, they formed this organization and there are only
six people at this time, but then by the year
(29:39):
two thousand there are over two hundred members of this
association and the purpose of it in totality was to
increase the number of official exorcists across the world, which is,
you know, I guess something you would want to do
if this is a problem that you see, and Father
Amwerth hoped that the existence of this organization would shed
(30:02):
light on what he saw as this growing and often
ignored problem, which was demonic possession, real demonic possession, and
also a lack of priests with the knowledge and authority
to perform the rites of exorcism.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Important point here with that phenomenal growth from nineteen ninety
to two thousand, so from over the course of ten
years it went from six to two hundred members. It
still was not formally acknowledged or approved of by the
actual Roman Catholic Church until twenty fourteen, but a lot
(30:35):
of stuff was happening in the interim because of those
two hundred members in two thousand, several went to a
national meeting of exorcists organized in two thousand and four
by the Archbishop of Mexico City, Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera.
The purpose of this meeting was to fight back against
(30:56):
what they saw is the spread of Satanism, to discuss
ways in which to use the Word of God to
denounce everything that is against God, which isn't just it's everything.
It's similar to the approach that the NSSAY or other
(31:16):
post nine to eleven intelligence agencies take toward rooting out terrorism.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Something against national security.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
National security probably a better way to put it. So
it's anything loosely associated. It's sort of mentality where everybody's
playing six degrees of Kevin Bacon, but now it's six
degrees of terrorism, six degrees of Satan. So it's not whether,
it's not whether something is openly associated with what they
(31:44):
see as the powers of darkness, with their by its practitioners, right,
like most people using Ouigia board are probably just playing
a game from Parker Brothers. Right. Maybe maybe, But in
this mind they're saying, whether, regardless of whether the practitioners
(32:05):
or the audience feels this is an infernal thing, we
are going to combat it. We are going to root
out every piece of possible influence that might be coming
through these outlets. So what kind of stuff is this?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Everything from witchcraft to magic, to occultism, fortune telling, the
New Age movements of using crystals for healing, even masonry.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Oh and important note that's freemasonry, not just brick laying.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Are you sure, because I don't know churches are built
of stone. Oh yeah, I guess so The meeting itself
was attended by over five hundred people. Most of these
people are priests. They were from all across Mexico. All
of them were somehow involved with exorcism, whether you know
they were new to the game or seasoned veterans. Besides
(32:57):
Cardinal Carrera, other notable guests included, as we kind of
mentioned before, Father Mario Angel or Angel Flores Ramos. He
was the director of theology at the Department of the
Pontifical University of Mexico. Father gian Carlo Gramolazzo the president
of the International Association of Exorcists at the time. So
(33:18):
he is the president of the association that we discussed earlier.
You also had Father Gabriel Amor, the founder of that
association or one of the founders of that association.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
He's the driving force. Yeah, President Emeritis.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah sure.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
So there's a big question that comes up here, and
oh all right, before we get to it, just to
paint some of father Amorth's character, Okay, this is an
unrelated story we found in our research that I that
I think is worthwhile. Okay, So Father Gabriel Amorth was
(34:00):
not just a not just an exorcist, right, Listen, to me,
just an exorcist. Those guys, well, you know what, they
will really mess up your weekend. Just on a side note,
so the was not merely an exorcist or did not
(34:21):
relegate his integrity or sense of purpose solely to these ideas.
He also he also fought against what he saw as
corruption within the Vatican itself. He famously in two thousand
and twelve attempted to blow the whistle on one of
(34:44):
the Vatican's most enduring mysteries, which was the disappearance of
a child named Emmanuela or Landi. In nineteen eighty three.
She disappeared. She was fifty ten years old, child of
a Vatican employee, and it became a mystery that was
(35:08):
never going to be solved, and people had made various
claims about it. In two thousand and five, an anonymous
caller to an Italian crime show on TV said that
you could find evidence of what happened to her in
the tomb of a mobster who was gunned down by
(35:29):
rival gangsters in the nineties. But in twenty and twelve,
Father Amorth said that the girl was abducted by people
within the Vatican and part of the establishment who had
(35:49):
a sexual motive to the crime that she was forced
to take part in child abuse parties WHOA And he
has the quote here that network involved diplomatic personnel from
a foreign embassy to the Holy See. I believe emmanuela
Holy See being the Vatican. I believe Manuela ended up
a victim of this circle. He told this to an
(36:13):
Italian newspaper called La Stampa, and he dismissed the various
plots going around that it was something some sort of wetwork,
black bag stuff between intelligence agencies, or that it was
(36:34):
attached to the mafia. So this was a guy who
took his stand for things that he felt strongly about
and was not afraid to make enemies, which seems to
me that he may have been a divisive figure in
a place like the Vatican, which definitely practices its own
(36:59):
sort of America or code of silence when it comes
to these crimes. I wanted to add that I know
it's a bit of a derailment, but it is important
because I do think it paints his character as a
man unafraid to speak truth to power, which is an
ulto rare trait in the modern world, and probably historically
has been a very rare trait. But that aside, those
(37:23):
are bona fides to me in regard to his character,
even though obviously not gonna. I don't agree with the person.
I've never met the person, so I don't agree with
everything they stand for what they say. But I am
impressed when someone does their best to speak truth to
power and then leads us to ask a question. Why
(37:45):
did this man organize this international association? Why did he
travel to Mexico City. Why did he begin to recruit
a cadre that later became an army of exorcists?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
The big deal, and we'll explore it right after a
quick word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
We've returned, and thankfully we have an answer to this question.
We don't always have an answer to questions, but in
this case we do. The formation of these organizations marked
a strange trend in the world of possession reports and
exorcism request As we said, there's still no publicly available
central database tracking the number of exorcisms performed, but we're
(38:34):
able to make some guesses about general trends based on
reports from these associated organizations. Influential priests like amorp himself
or Grama Lazo, and the reports of exorcists serving in
specific archdioceses.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
For several decades in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries,
reports of possession and you know, us for exorcisms had
been on the decline. They'd been reducing in number because
for years after the Roman Catholic Church's Second Vatican Council,
or what they called Vatican Two, that.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Was like God, everybody at our job uses that joke.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yeah, well, well, it resulted in new church practices, like
the official Church practices, that were deemed compatible with the
contemporary world. And in this case, with this Vatican Two,
it was taboo for priests to speak of Satan as
if a physical or a Satan actually existed.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Right, So not Satan as a real thing, Satan as
a metaphor for the struggle to grow closer to God.
That was nineteen sixty.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Two, Yeah, roughly around there, sixty two sixty five. However,
in the more recent decades, as we're getting closer to today,
exorcism requests didn't just start to grow. They didn't just
inch a little bit on the scale. They spiked way up,
especially here in the United States as well as in
(40:06):
the United Kingdom, and cultural scholars will often argue that
this rise is coming out of the you know, possibly
what you could see as the spike would be the
premiere of The Exorcist, which became a huge.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Blockbuster hit nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Along with subsequent Satanic panic that occurred here in the
United States and elsewhere in the late nineteen eighties and nineties,
where just interest in the scary parts of possession, interest
in belief that maybe there's Satanism occurring in the town
where you live, where groups of people are getting around
(40:43):
to worship Satan and hold rituals, and to the true believers, however,
this is a signal of something much larger at play.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
And this rise was such that as of twenty sixteen,
despite the formation of the Internationalist Nsociation of Exorcists, the
Catholic Church was having serious problems fielding all requests for exorcisms,
as many of the older exorcists were aging out or dying,
and many of the newer, less experienced priests were frightened
(41:15):
of enacting the rights. And again, this is you know,
serious stuff in this world. These individuals will be priests
for decades before they tackle their first you know, real exorcism.
Quote unquote to use the description in How Exorcism Works,
(41:37):
yet again a fantastic article by House of Works. I
did not write it, so I feel fine bragging about it.
It was written by Julia Layton, who always does wonderful
work for us. Two of the most prominent exorcists in
the United States, a fellow named Father Gary Thomas and
a fellow n in Father Vincent Lampert. Note that it's
(41:59):
not the church demanding more exorcisms, which it can do right.
It was on church orders that Mother Teresa was actually
exercised before her death, but rather the people, the lay folk,
and Father Lambert's experience. Only one out of every five
thousand or so request is someone afflicted by a full
(42:23):
demonic possession. He does say, however, that he is conducted
countless exorcisms related to demonic obsession, demonic vexation, and demonic infestation.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yeah, you'll also hear demonic oppression amongst those terms, where
it's slightly different, little different things going on. But it's
not a human being that has a demon inside of
them that needs to get.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Out, okay, right, So it's some kind of external.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
A lot of times externally.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
So maybe there might be a physical malady.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Or being influenced in some way.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Sure, and Father Lamport also says that half the calls
he receives are from non Catholics.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
And this, this is interesting. This is a point that
we need to make in defense of the Catholic Church's
process here a defense of the Church overall, of course,
But there's a pretty rigorous system built for the analysis
(43:32):
of an initial possession report. Because the Catholic Church and
the exorcists in the church are trained to come at
this from a very skeptical place. The first thing they
will do is consult with everyone else to find any
(43:52):
other cause.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
With people of science we're talking about, Yeah, people's psychologists
come out and make sure there's nothing else going on.
I see an actual physician, make sure there's no other malady.
I have to say that that part of this whole
process does make me, I don't know, think there might
(44:13):
be a little more sand to it, because the Church
itself as an organization is saying, well, we're going to
weed out the stuff that isn't actually possession.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Well, and also to be objective about it. The Catholic
Church is such a massive organization that if there were
not some sort of filtration system. It would just be
nundated these things, and it already it already is. We
(44:41):
think about the donations donation or donations mandatory.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
No, what I'm saying if you charged, if you had
mandatory donations for the performing the rights of exorcism and
you have that many requests coming.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
In, that is diabolical. That it is a terrible, terrible thing.
Oh boy, you know what, Father Gabriel Amor would not approve.
He has passed from this mortal plane. The organization, the
(45:20):
Association of Exorcists rather still exist and the current president
would probably also disagree.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Yeah, we have some quotes from him, father of Francesco Bamonte.
He says, quote, when listening to a prayer to the Virgin,
the demon shows all of his hatred and fear toward her.
He is forced to confirm that Mary is the mother
of God and that she intercedes for humanity. Satan is
(45:47):
not the God of evil against the God of good. Rather,
he is a being who God created as good and who,
with some angels also created good by God, became evil
because they refused God and his kingdom with their free
and final choice. Satan and the spirits at his service. Therefore,
are not omnipotent beings. They cannot perform miracles, they are
(46:10):
not omnipresent, They cannot know our thoughts or the future.
And just to know that that is a man speaking
in twenty sixteen. The current president of the International Association
of Exorcists truly believes, at least himself and in the
fairly large organization that he represents and heads, believes that
(46:33):
that is true. That is a problem that humanity must
be must continue to deal with.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
And they very much believe. Both monte and when he
was alive, very much believe that the that Satan is
a real thing. Right that a more Also, in regard
to the sexual scandals and corruption rocking the Vatican, he
believed there was evidence of corruption by the Antichrist, so
(47:06):
the foretold and much feared force of Satan embodied on
the planet. Right, he thought I was real and there
both of these, Both of these individuals and many of
the people serving in the International Association of Exorcists believe
(47:30):
that this rise in possession arise in reports of it
in an increasingly secular world, come about in reaction to
and relation with the division between spirituality and science. Right
(47:51):
as we said in this quote, So are people more
likely to be pass to say that would would require
us to say that possession itself is real or something
like it? Or are people just searching for some sort
(48:13):
of spiritual explanation that they find lacking an increasingly unspiritual
world at the time. Uncertain times and uncertain times, no
kidding man. At the time of this recording, exorcisms continue
to be on the rise. For the more skeptical in
the crowd, or those who wouldn't subscribe to the idea
(48:36):
of Catholicism or the Catholic perspective on exorcism, this indicates
hysteria or failure to recognize the difference between a good
popcorn worthy horror flick and the facts. For the true believers, however,
the late Father of Morth among them, this is indicative
of something else, something larger, something very dangerous and all
(49:01):
too frighteningly real. It is important to say that he
is not alone or was not alone, nor were his colleagues.
Other organizations have formed to combat the rising tide of
alleged possession and the rising request for exorcisms. There's the
Pope Leo, the Twelfth Institute based in Milwaukee, which was
(49:23):
founded in twenty twelve to support the quote spiritual formation
of priests, bring the light of Christ to dispel evil. Wow.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Yeah, And this thing it started as this just a
series of meetings, informal meetings at the request of bishops
in the United States. It wanted they wanted training. Really,
they needed more people who could perform exorcisms, so they
wanted education and training, and it was just It's also
a response to Pope Saint John Paul the Second's recommendation
(49:53):
that every single diocey should have an appointed exorcist, and
a spokesperson with the United States Bishop's Conference said, although
ideally every diocese should have its own exorcists, there are
no statistics kept by the Church to the actual the
factual numbers of how many exorcists there actually are.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
There are also classes and courses offered by the Church
on exorcism, and the Catholic Church has actively been training
experienced priests in the nuts and bolts of exorcism, how
to evaluate a case from day one, how to request permission,
and ultimately, if need be, how to act, how to
(50:35):
enact the right Here and on a side note, for this,
we should also acknowledge that while we have focused on
the Catholic Church's efforts to combat this rise in exorcism request,
they are not alone in the game. Other Christian denominations
(50:59):
evangelical as well, have also begun conduct combating what they
see as a rise in possessions in spiritual afflictions from
demonic forces. This is a rising tide across multiple things.
(51:19):
I guess what we're emphasizing here is this is not
a matter of three elderly or six elderly priests high
up in the Vatican social hierarchy who were able to
push through something that they were interested in, like that
high level executive at Sony who is able to push
(51:39):
through psychic experiments. Right, And this doesn't seem to end
after some of these folks have passed away. And we
want to ask you, we want to end more on
a question. Here, is possession or something like it real?
And do you think that these spiritual interpretations of it
(52:02):
are accurate or do you think they are a cultural
framework on something else? Right?
Speaker 2 (52:09):
And if so, what yah And what's the closest you
have come to experiencing a possession or exorcism? Have you
been looking peered through a door and seen one. Have
you been a part of one? We would love to
hear your stories.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
And then, perhaps more importantly, I won't speak for you, Matt,
but from I am more importantly, why is it on
the rise? Because that's the spookiest thing. Whether or not
you believe in this, whether or not you are Catholic,
whether or not you are spiritual in an any remote
(52:48):
six degrees of Kevin Bacon's sense of the term, it
is inarguable that these reports and requests are rising speak,
you know, fantastic segues. It's time for our corner.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Our first tweet comes from what up Saucy. Saucy says, Wow,
I'm still my pants from that gloomy Sunday episode. Well done, gentlemen,
hashtag Thursday.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Well thank you, thank you so much. We all, we
all really, uh we already all really put some blood,
sweat and tears and some late nights into that one,
and we're so glad that someone enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
Yeah, and you know, people have been asking us for
an unbleeped version, an uncensored version, but I don't think
you're gonna get one unless you search for it, and
you can find it online somewhere through the fringe festival,
which you might be able to. I, you know, I
would love to.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
I would love to get some version of that out.
We also have a When we originally wrote it, we
had no idea that we would eventually put it on
this show. No, so we really leaned into some language there.
But yeah, maybe we can get an uncentered version out.
We'll look for it. But we also will have some
(54:11):
more things like that on the way. So if you
enjoy that, stay tuned, and if you'd like to hear
more of them, write to our bosses directly, tag how
stuff works wherever you find the social media platform, say
we want more of this, and who knows.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
It might happen. You might make it come true.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Yeah, you might manifest it. Right. We have another shout
out from Kate Landis, who says conspiracy stuff. I once
went to the doctor for an abscess. They told me
that antibiotics don't do anything for a normal absess, but
that doctors like to prescribe them to make the patient
feel like something is being done. Then they prescribed me antibiotics.
(54:54):
I didn't take them.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
Hmmm, good on you, Kat Kate Kite, Kate ay Kite.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
I think it's Kate, oh with a little Australians.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
Yeah, Kite linis I will.
Speaker 1 (55:08):
I heard one of our I was checking on some
of one of our earlier episodes and you did a
great Australian accent.
Speaker 2 (55:14):
You know. I did the same thing, and you were
amazing at your Australian accent, did I?
Speaker 1 (55:19):
Yeah? Oh? Really? Yeah? Oh man, Okay, Well I can
only do it for maybe four very specific words, and
unfortunately none of them form a COHERI. But but to
Kate's points, that's that's a very valid concern. We know
that the over prescription of antibiotics has been a literal
(55:40):
case of something they don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
Yeah, making all the stuff that those antibiotics are supposed
to fight even stronger if you don't take the full
dose in the right amount of time, right, and uh yeah,
it's it's really bad. So then everybody else taking antibiotics
decreases their ability to fight the thing because the thing
is now stronger.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
We should maybe we should look into some of that,
the current state of antibiotics. We did Rise of the Superbug,
but I don't know if we've looked at I don't
know if we've looked at it too recently, and unfortunately
the situation is changing.
Speaker 2 (56:17):
Only getting worse.
Speaker 1 (56:18):
Man, I've pulled up Pandemic too again, that online game,
and I started to play it and it just got
too depressing because it could happen.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
Yeah, so that's a little too real for my taste. Well,
thank you for writing to us. When our last shout
out for the day comes from Sunshine Kid twenty one
and Sunshine Kid twenty one says, could you guys do
a podcast about root canals? I heard it was a
scam and it causes health problems, et cetera. Thanks. I
love the podcasts root canals as a conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (56:51):
That's interesting. I had heard that the metal filling that
is used Malcolm, that is, is that what it is
amalgam that is used in cavities can have dangerous health
effects potentially root canals I'm not too aware of, but
(57:13):
I will say it's honestly surprising that dentistry uses some
of the same old techniques and has for quite a while,
for decades. But it would be interesting to look into.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
Oh do you see that it's Josh and Chuck. They're
waving at us get out of the studio.
Speaker 1 (57:34):
Oh, I thought that was just a hello wave. Okay,
well I've just been waving to them for like five minutes,
so sorry.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
Maybe that's all they're doing. Oh nope, nope, I'm pretty
sure I know what that sign means.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
You're holding up a sign. It says this is the
end of your and they are correct. However, it is
not the end of the show. Matt, Paul, Nol and
I will be back very soon. We hope that you
will join us as well. In the meantime, you can
find us on Instagram, Twitter, You can find us on.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
Facebook, yeah, Facebook, and that stuff they don't want you
to know, dot Com where you can find every episode
we've ever produced, and some videos and some other stuff.
Pictures of Ben. If you want to look at pictures
of Ben, go to stuff they don't want you to
know dot com.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
You really sold me out on now one.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
And they're pictures of me too, And.
Speaker 1 (58:25):
There're a lot and you can find various different stories
up for one reason or another might not make it
on the show yet.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
Hey, are you listening to Ridiculous History yet? You should be.
It's the show that our friends Ben and Noel are hosting.
It is really fun and you guys are doing some
really fun stuff with guests on your show that you've
discussed with me about, and then I've been listening to
it as a fan because it's really really fun. Specifically
(58:54):
with our complaint department here on this show, mister Jonathan Strickland.
Speaker 1 (58:58):
Oh yeah, who is available for any complaints or concerns
twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, Jonathan
dot Strickland at HowStuffWorks dot com. And you know we
value the complaints gip us honest. Make sure you send
them to the right address so we can treat them
with the import they deserve. You might be asking why
why my longtime colleague Matt is not on the show
(59:21):
A Ridiculous History. There is a reason. It turns out
that Matt is one of the masterminds behind one of
the most popular shows on Apple podcast as we speak,
Atlanta Monster. If you like this show, you will love
Atlanta Monster.
Speaker 2 (59:37):
Yeah, subscribe today, new episodes every Friday. We're looking into
the missing and murdered children cases from nineteen seventy nine
to eighty one in Atlanta. So you know, start listening
if you're not already. And that's the end of this
classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about
(59:57):
this episode. You can get into contact with us in
a number of different ways. One of the best is
to give us a call. Our number is one eight
three three st d WYTK. If you don't want to
do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to the show, fellow conspiracy realist Matt. This classic
episode has me wondering should we should we be doing exorcisms?
Should we get back into that.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Yeah, I mean it's been too long, first of all.
Second of all, it's so much fun. Third of all,
I don't know. I would love to have an exorcism
performed on me, just to like test and see if
there's any demonic stuff going on in.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Here, just like like a spiritual physical.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, yeah, like I don't even know it's happening or anybody,
and you just test it out, see what happens. If
you get anything, well you win.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hold this crossing cough. So the idea of an exorcism,
this exists throughout history, throughout the world, some version of
this in the West. The Catholic concept of an exorcism
is probably the thing that's most familiar to people like
you know, in the nineteen seventy three horror film The Exorcists.
(01:03):
We were surprised a number of years ago to learn
that exorcisms are actually on the rise.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, they have a whole association that's international. Let's learn
about it.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Usually
that's Nol, but he's not here today, and we.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Promise that, as far as we know, our compatriot is
not possessed. We are, of course joined with our super producer,
Paul Decant. They call me Ben. You are you? And
that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.
The power of podcast compels us. Yes, it does to
(02:09):
perform certain rituals at certain times. And this is one
of our rituals that you and I have been doing
for a number of years. Matt. We we research something strange,
we may conduct an interview, we may travel somewhere, and
then we come together in this place and.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
With our Coca Cola holy water and pour it into
our mouths. So at least I do I think you have.
You've got straight up coffee today, which is just as good,
if not better.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
And our relics are with us, our microphones, our headphones.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Are our smelly pop filters.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
That was a subject of discussion before we dropped in.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Everybody uses them, and you know, sometimes you have coffee breath.
It's all good. Sometimes you have Coca cola breath strategy.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
By the way, as I'm pretty specific with this, I
try to stay away from the mic, you know, I
don't want to get right right on it. It's just
length voiceover. Yeah. And additionally, one could argue, if we
were to look at podcasting as a ritual or a
right that what you and I are doing now is incantation. Oh,
(03:26):
because we do spend you know, you and I especially
have spend a lot of time behind the scenes or
off air, off camera saying, you know what, how should
we approach an idea? Should we structure it? Is there
a power in formula and ritual and right? And we
(03:49):
think there is.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, at least to an extent or in a way,
because you expect it, you as a person receiving a
ritual in this sort or an incantation like this, I
don't know. It's it's almost as if it triggers a
thing that is already implanted in your brain, the pathways
(04:12):
that are already there because you kind of know what
it is. But then it's going to open up new
pathways that are connected to that one.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Right, That's the question that you might want to ask yourself,
longtime listeners, friends and neighbors, have we primed you? Have
we programmed you to anticipate certain stimuli and respond in
certain ways?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, the answer is yes. First time listeners, welcome to
the show. Hey, you hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Before we jump into today's topic, we want to start
with a quick quote that kind of sets up maybe
the framing of mind for some of the people who
think in the same way of these characters. Quote today,
the world does not turn from God because it is idolatrous. Rather,
it pursues pure atheism so as to put science on
(05:06):
the altar. And that's from Father Gabriel Amorth and he
is someone we will get to a little later.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Matt, what do you think of when you hear the
word exorcism.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I see images from film and television, mostly film movies,
the Exorciste in particular. I have very vivid images of
a body rising off of a bed of vomit, coming
from a mouth, of a discolored face, that is possession
(05:40):
in particular. And then when I think of exorcism, I
think of holy water, and I think of reading from
a Bible, reading the word of God. Other symbology, crosses,
artifacts of that sort, yeah, investments, Yes, the touching of hands.
(06:01):
That's what I see, a very Hollywood version of exorcism.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Agreed, you know, and I believe that that's something common.
You know, a lot of people, at least in the West,
when we hear the term exorcism, we think of, as
you said, Hollywood, a good horror film.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Well, yeah, because most of us haven't experienced a true exorcism,
or what would be considered a real exorcism.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
M m, right, at least in that specific Catholic framework,
right in the past. On this very show, almost four
years ago to the day, Wow, we covered the phenomenon
of exorcism in general, along with how it differs across
time and cultures. Will give a brief background of exorcism
(06:52):
and possession here, and for more in depth information, please
check out our earlier episode, Exorcisms Introduction. Not the most creative.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Title, eh, you know, that's exactly what it was.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Though it was it was I.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Think we did a pretty good job. I really liked
that episode.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I went back and listened to it and I was surprised.
Not that I expected it to be terrible, but twenty
fourteen was such a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Now, we were just learning what the show was.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right, We were like priest conducting our first Okay, all right, yeah,
we're gonna let that analogy go. So here are the facts,
the brief background broad stroke stuff, Matt and I will
give you. Here is the following. The practice of exorcism
predates the existence of all Abramaic religion, Judaism, Islam, Christianity,
(07:46):
all of it. This stuff was old beings by the
time Jesus Christ or Moses or any of the other
religious figures right of course, Muhammad and so on, before
anybody body else came into the fold, or the zeitgeist
of spiritual belief.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
That the concept of some kind of spirit entering a
corporeal body somehow and then taking it out.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, yeah, non consensually entering and being non consensually pooled
by the time the story of Jesus Christ casting spirits
into pigs came about, or by the time you know,
people heard that story, whether they heard it in an
oral tradition, whether they who knows, witnessed it themselves, or
(08:36):
whether they read about it in centuries or millennia later,
the concept of exorcism would have already been more than
familiar to the audience. In ancient Samaria and Babylon, exorcists
already played a prominent role somewhere between that of a
priest and a doctor. And it's pretty fascinating because the
(09:00):
rituals from what we know, of course, a lot of
this has lost the time, or publicly available knowledge has
been lost the time. The rituals would vary, but they
still relied on artifacts, techniques, and as you said, Matt,
the main goal was to drive out a spirit. They
(09:20):
might not have used the word demon, maybe more like spirit.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
A spirit that, yeah, again non consensually was there, probably
of a bad nature, a negative nature, right.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And this could be in some cases, this could be
a human spirit, a ghost, right, an angry ancestor. In
other cases, though in a way that's more familiar with
us now in the modern day, it would be something
that never was human, yeah, a.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Monster from another plain kind of exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah. And they would concoct these magical substances or potions,
these relics and artifacts composed of animals or plants or
different stones that were thought to have various powers. In
the world of sympathetic magic, we're talking about iron from meteors, reeds, flower,
(10:17):
animal hair. Birds were really big in this time, and
birds still are symbolically hugely important, right.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Oh. Yeah, They're thought to possess, or they have been
for a long time, thought to possess, some kind of
supernatural power, especially white owls. White owls, and you have
to imagine that image would be startling in a way.
And I guess you can just imagine viewing one just
perch outside a window or something, or perched outside of
(10:49):
a home, just sitting there in a tree and gazing.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Now, we have both lived outside of urban areas in
the past, right, and I believe I believe Paul has
as well. I have to admit, even even if someone
without Nole's crippling fear of all things avy and when
(11:16):
I unexpectedly see a large predatory bird, yeah, I mean
that's a double take moment. Yeah, I'm going to say
I'm startled, not frightened, because usually that for a long
time now, I've been a bit too large for the
average bird to attack. But have you ever been in
a situation where you hear a slight rustle and you
(11:40):
turn to the left and there's a hawk or a
falcon or something.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, I have to really fast stories. H yeah, yeah, Okay.
So the other day I was driving to work in
the morning. It was very foggy outside. It was the
day I posted on our Instagram a couple of pictures
of Atlanta in this heavy, misty fog conspiracy stuff show.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Feel free to follow it.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yes, Well, as I got to the stop sign in
my neighborhood, I looked to my right and I see
I'm not really sure what it is at first, and
then I realize, oh, it is a large brown hawk,
very large, about the size of a cat, a large cat,
and it has its wings wrapped around something. It's sitting
or standing on the ground, and something is like kind
(12:24):
of twitching and moving underneath its wings, and you can
see it kind of readjusting itself, and then it opens
its wings a little bit. It sends its beak down
really fast around the neck of this squirrel that it's
got trapped, and then it's holding it down still, and
I swear it looks up and it looks right at
my car, because I just stop and I just stare
(12:44):
at it for a little while. It stares at me,
and then I go, all right, I'm moving on and
I'm driving carefully just in case this is an omen
of some sort. The other one is in my backyard there,
it's a fenced in area, there is a fam of
large owls. And I didn't realize this, oh wow, until
one night I took my small dock's in terrier mix
(13:06):
out in the back to go to the bathroom, Buddy, Buddy,
and I heard a sound that I was unfamiliar with.
I did not know what type of bird it was.
I didn't know anything. I just knew it was a
large bird and it was just above me in this
large oak tree.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Was it a vocalization?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It was a vocalization that I cannot reproduce.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And oh it sounded like a curse word. Huh yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
But it was so eerie, and I didn't know until
when I got this powerful flashlight out of my house
shined it up, and it was just this huge owl
perched on this tree. And it was again like just
staring down at the source of light at me. And
the feeling, even now in then twenty seventeen, was of
(13:51):
dread of some sort, you.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Know, And don't be fooled by the vocalization either, because
owls are some of the quietest predators birds. I can
completely understand where you're coming from. And that's so cool
that you live there, because you know your chances of
having any sort of rudent problem have just bottomed out.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yes, very very true. Anyway, that's enough on owls.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Oh, yes, yes, yes, And then you know things like
ravens would be thought to be messengers, yes, owls also,
But owls were more associated in these ancient times in Samaria,
at least with insidious powers, the powers of darkness and
death and decay and evil. Right, whereas ravens, ravens were
(14:44):
like bad news, but owls, owls were terrible news. Then
of course you could probably see this coming, folks. The
idea of water water symbolized the presence of Ea, the
god of water, so it was often sprinkled on the
victim of a possession during incantations to symbolize the cleansing
(15:08):
of the victim. Right, the influence of the god of
water taking away the contamination of this evil.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Spirit, symbol we see with modern day baptisms.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Right exactly. Hole in one spittle, by the way, was
especially important. It was thought to be a potent toxin
when used against demons. Saliva wow, So that's why several
ancient texts refer to these sorcerer priests as kasapum. However
it's pronounced which was Arabic four to poison, and the
(15:41):
Smerian equivalent was mints saliva or spittle wow, the idea
being the poisoned demons. And as you pointed out, many
of the vestiges of these older practices can be seen
in exorcism rituals and rites around the world today. Incantations,
the use of sanctified or holy water, the use of
(16:01):
animals and relics. In this episode for the Strange phenomenon
will examine today, we're going to focus on Catholic perspectives
concerning exorcism. So what if we are asking the Catholic Church,
if we're hanging out with Pope Francis and we ask him,
(16:23):
what's exorcism, what does he say?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
He's going to say, the act of driving out or
warding off demons or evil spirits from persons, places or
things which are believed to be possessed or infested by them,
or are liable to become victims or instruments of their malice.
And that's according to the Catholic Encyclopedia right.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
That does sound like there would be a bit of
a complex sentence structure to generate off the dome, doesn't it.
While the treatment of this perceived conditioned spiritual possession may
vary from one culture to the next, the idea is
extraordinarily common, as we discussed in our previous episode, throughout history,
(17:05):
and the gist of it is pretty much the same
across time, culture, and space, and evil. Typically, non corporeal
entity or non physical entity invades a physical vessel. In
horror films or horror stories, this is often a person,
often a kid who turns really creepy, or an elderly person,
(17:26):
because those two ends of the mortality cycle of humanity
are the things that psychologically tend to creep people out
the most.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, well, and in a way are the weakest parts
of that bell curve.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
That's a great point. That is a really great point. Also, however,
places or objects may be considered infected. There's an excellent
article on our parent website, how Stuff Works. It's called
how Exorcisms Work, and they break down some of the
(18:00):
approaches the Catholic Church takes to exorcisms. This article, by
the way, is solely based on Catholicism, and we can't
stress it enough. Exorcism, possession. It is not a Catholic
thing alone. It's just something like if you hear about
(18:21):
it here in the US, you are most likely going
to hear about it through this lens. Anyhow, According to this,
the Catholic Church recognizes not one, but several types of exorcism,
and some of them may surprise you.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah. The first one is baptismal exorcism, and this is
when you bring an infant like a baby prior to
being officially baptized into the church. You bring it into
the church to cleanse it of the evil resulting from
its original sin, which is dark and away. But it's
also the least worrisome of the types of exorcism. The
(19:01):
second one is simple exorcism, and this is more of
a blessing really than pulling things out of it so much,
I guess in a way. But you're blessing a place
or a thing, so a physical object, to rid it
of some kind of evil infestation.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Right right, And you see similar this sort of thing
well qualifying as exorcism is something that you would see
in other cultures. Perhaps the idea that you may have
heard from some of your college roommates in the past
of burning sage to purify a place because something bad
happened there. Then, of course there's real exorcism, the real deal,
(19:43):
the one we all hear about performing the capital R
right of capital e exorcism to rid a living human
being a possession by a diabolical entity. And that brings
us to another question. How do you know whether someone's
being possessed? How can you tell the difference between someone
who's just been a real ahole versus someone who's become
(20:04):
an unwilling vessel for infernal forces of the you know,
the left hand of darkness. Right. According to the Church,
there are several telltale signs of demonic possession that anyone
can sense. In general, you don't have to be a
member of the clergy to notice these things. Speaking or
(20:27):
understanding languages which the person has never learned. It's different
from speaking in tongues gloss a alia, because that is
believed to be indicative of religious ecstasy, whereas speaking in
fluent Aramaic or something is considered to be a sign
(20:51):
that there's a different entity at the wheel of your mind.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yeah, the traditional speaking in tongues is it's just gibberish.
It does, it's not actual formations of words or sentences. Generally.
Then there's knowing or somehow revealing things that the person
has no way of knowing. It. Just if it was
regular times and this person just was existing in their life,
(21:15):
there's no way they could have known this clairvoyance.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yes, yeah, in physical strength beyond the person's natural physical makeup,
which is an interesting thing because we know in times
of great stress that can actually happen. Hysterical strength is
a thing to some degree. And then a violent aversion
to God, the Virgin Mary, the Cross, and other images
(21:40):
of the Catholic.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Faith yep, which again we have seen over and over.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
So where does that leave us today. We'll tell you
after a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And we're back. So today, exorcism remains the subject of
this intense interest across the world for peoples across the world,
both for believers that think exorcism is real and you're
actually bringing evil spirits out of a person and skeptics
who think it's just a strange ritual that's just stuck around.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
An historical artifact or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really
good point. Matt because one thing that you notice is
that even the people who you know, the people I
refer to them as pseudo skeptics, who are so into
their idea of being a skeptic that they have severely
(22:43):
crippled their ability to apply critical thinking, even those people
have a huge interest in the concept. Right. It's entertaining
in horror and in fiction, right, And it's also fascinating
(23:03):
just from an anthropological perspective. Right.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Oh yeah, with the quote we had at the top
of the show, it seems in this world of science
in which we exist right now, that exorcisms should have
just been left by the wayside, and they most certainly haven't.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Exactly. Yeah. Modern science often proposes that historical cases of
exorcism can be attributed to a number of different mundane causes,
including things like mental health issues that would not have
been recognized in the same framework through which we recognize
(23:43):
them today, stuff like schizophrenia, right, possibly dementia instance, or
even arguably in the case of the elderly Alzheimer's, anything
that seems to dramatically change someone behavior, their emotional state,
or distress them. Other undiagnosed, unrecognized diseases, genetic conditions, and
(24:09):
then the more complex, the more complex phenomenon of social
pressures or behavior running in contravention to social moras, norms,
or values of the time. Are you you know one
thing that would happen in patriarchal societies? Right? Are you
a woman who doesn't want to be in this arranged marriage? Yeah?
(24:33):
You must be possessed by the devil. How else would
you have a problem with this? It's not you, it's
this demon that said you shouldn't marry this fifty year
old man in your twelve It must be it must
be called the priest. So how far do we take
this idea today? Though? Are there literally modern exorcisms in
(24:55):
the Catholic Church spoiler alert yes, of course, But if so,
how seriously does the church take them? Here's where it
gets crazy again.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Like we said, while exorcism might seem like this artifact
of some you know, the bloody religious history that humanity
has experienced, it's still taken very seriously by the Catholic Church,
more seriously in fact, in recent decades than it had
been prior to that. There is this thing that this
(25:28):
episode is really all about, called the International Association of Exorcists.
And here let's let's talk about it. This is a
Roman Catholic organization, and it sounds ancient. It sounds like
something that would have been created in the fifteen hundreds,
the sixteen hundreds or something. But no, it wasn't founded
until the year nineteen ninety and there were six priests
(25:52):
that got together, including Father Gabriel Amorth with the quote
at the top of the show, and Father Jeremy Davies right.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Father Gabriel m Orth is someone that we touched upon
in a couple of previous episodes. He was born in
nineteen twenty five exorcists for the Diocese of Rome. He
claimed to have performed I believe over one hundred and
(26:22):
sixty thousands exorcisms.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Whoa yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
During his now he was a priest for decades and decades.
He was often called by reputable news sources the Vatican's
chief exorcists, which is more I think we of me
have said that as well. It turns out that's more
(26:48):
the translation, because he is exorcist for the Diocese of Rome,
but he's not. He wasn't. There's not some sort of
joint chiefs of staff for exorcism in Rome, and he's
not the guy with the most stars or the biggest
epaulets or whatever. He was a priest for years and
(27:13):
years before he became an official exorcist, and that's something
we see with a lot of Catholic priest It's not
something that people enter into on their first day of seminary.
He was a priest in nineteen fifty four and he
did not become an exorcist until nineteen eighty six, under
(27:34):
the tutelage of Candido Amantini. He loved the film The Exorcist.
I thought that was fascinating. He loved it because he
thought it was substantially correct, does based on true events,
and he thought the special effects were exaggerated. But he
picture him shrugging and going, you know, it's a movie.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
So he.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
In defense of this film, he said that he was
in an interview with a London Sunday Telegraph and he
stressed that people need to know what we do we
in this sense being exorcist. The different the different claims
of the number of exorcisms that Amor conducted. The reason
(28:24):
for that difference is that there's no central database for
the amount of exorcisms, either performed per year performed in total,
but We could make some guesses on some of this
stuff later, but that's why you hear his numbers differing.
(28:45):
In October two thousand, it was reported he had performed
over fifty thousand exorcisms. In twenty ten, he said the
number was seventy thousand, but by May of twenty thirteen
he said he had performed one hundred and sixty thousand
and over the course of his career. An important note here,
as we said, there are different types of exorcism. Yeah,
(29:08):
so that could count everything from praying for a bad
place to be cleansed of some sort of influence to
the stuff you would see in the film The Exorcist.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah. So this guy who has you know, had already
by the year nineteen ninety had a lot of experience
with exorcism. He and his buddies, his compatriots, along with
Jeremy Davies, they formed this organization and there are only
six people at this time, but then by the year
(29:39):
two thousand there are over two hundred members of this
association and the purpose of it in totality was to
increase the number of official exorcists across the world, which is,
you know, I guess something you would want to do
if this is a problem that you see, and Father
Amwerth hoped that the existence of this organization would shed
(30:02):
light on what he saw as this growing and often
ignored problem, which was demonic possession, real demonic possession, and
also a lack of priests with the knowledge and authority
to perform the rites of exorcism.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Important point here with that phenomenal growth from nineteen ninety
to two thousand, so from over the course of ten
years it went from six to two hundred members. It
still was not formally acknowledged or approved of by the
actual Roman Catholic Church until twenty fourteen, but a lot
(30:35):
of stuff was happening in the interim because of those
two hundred members in two thousand, several went to a
national meeting of exorcists organized in two thousand and four
by the Archbishop of Mexico City, Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera.
The purpose of this meeting was to fight back against
(30:56):
what they saw is the spread of Satanism, to discuss
ways in which to use the Word of God to
denounce everything that is against God, which isn't just it's everything.
It's similar to the approach that the NSSAY or other
(31:16):
post nine to eleven intelligence agencies take toward rooting out terrorism.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Something against national security.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
National security probably a better way to put it. So
it's anything loosely associated. It's sort of mentality where everybody's
playing six degrees of Kevin Bacon, but now it's six
degrees of terrorism, six degrees of Satan. So it's not whether,
it's not whether something is openly associated with what they
(31:44):
see as the powers of darkness, with their by its practitioners, right,
like most people using Ouigia board are probably just playing
a game from Parker Brothers. Right. Maybe maybe, But in
this mind they're saying, whether, regardless of whether the practitioners
(32:05):
or the audience feels this is an infernal thing, we
are going to combat it. We are going to root
out every piece of possible influence that might be coming
through these outlets. So what kind of stuff is this?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Everything from witchcraft to magic, to occultism, fortune telling, the
New Age movements of using crystals for healing, even masonry.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Oh and important note that's freemasonry, not just brick laying.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Are you sure, because I don't know churches are built
of stone. Oh yeah, I guess so The meeting itself
was attended by over five hundred people. Most of these
people are priests. They were from all across Mexico. All
of them were somehow involved with exorcism, whether you know
they were new to the game or seasoned veterans. Besides
(32:57):
Cardinal Carrera, other notable guests included, as we kind of
mentioned before, Father Mario Angel or Angel Flores Ramos. He
was the director of theology at the Department of the
Pontifical University of Mexico. Father gian Carlo Gramolazzo the president
of the International Association of Exorcists at the time. So
(33:18):
he is the president of the association that we discussed earlier.
You also had Father Gabriel Amor, the founder of that
association or one of the founders of that association.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
He's the driving force. Yeah, President Emeritis.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah sure.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
So there's a big question that comes up here, and
oh all right, before we get to it, just to
paint some of father Amorth's character, Okay, this is an
unrelated story we found in our research that I that
I think is worthwhile. Okay, So Father Gabriel Amorth was
(34:00):
not just a not just an exorcist, right, Listen, to me,
just an exorcist. Those guys, well, you know what, they
will really mess up your weekend. Just on a side note,
so the was not merely an exorcist or did not
(34:21):
relegate his integrity or sense of purpose solely to these ideas.
He also he also fought against what he saw as
corruption within the Vatican itself. He famously in two thousand
and twelve attempted to blow the whistle on one of
(34:44):
the Vatican's most enduring mysteries, which was the disappearance of
a child named Emmanuela or Landi. In nineteen eighty three.
She disappeared. She was fifty ten years old, child of
a Vatican employee, and it became a mystery that was
(35:08):
never going to be solved, and people had made various
claims about it. In two thousand and five, an anonymous
caller to an Italian crime show on TV said that
you could find evidence of what happened to her in
the tomb of a mobster who was gunned down by
(35:29):
rival gangsters in the nineties. But in twenty and twelve,
Father Amorth said that the girl was abducted by people
within the Vatican and part of the establishment who had
(35:49):
a sexual motive to the crime that she was forced
to take part in child abuse parties WHOA And he
has the quote here that network involved diplomatic personnel from
a foreign embassy to the Holy See. I believe emmanuela
Holy See being the Vatican. I believe Manuela ended up
a victim of this circle. He told this to an
(36:13):
Italian newspaper called La Stampa, and he dismissed the various
plots going around that it was something some sort of wetwork,
black bag stuff between intelligence agencies, or that it was
(36:34):
attached to the mafia. So this was a guy who
took his stand for things that he felt strongly about
and was not afraid to make enemies, which seems to
me that he may have been a divisive figure in
a place like the Vatican, which definitely practices its own
(36:59):
sort of America or code of silence when it comes
to these crimes. I wanted to add that I know
it's a bit of a derailment, but it is important
because I do think it paints his character as a
man unafraid to speak truth to power, which is an
ulto rare trait in the modern world, and probably historically
has been a very rare trait. But that aside, those
(37:23):
are bona fides to me in regard to his character,
even though obviously not gonna. I don't agree with the person.
I've never met the person, so I don't agree with
everything they stand for what they say. But I am
impressed when someone does their best to speak truth to
power and then leads us to ask a question. Why
(37:45):
did this man organize this international association? Why did he
travel to Mexico City. Why did he begin to recruit
a cadre that later became an army of exorcists?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
The big deal, and we'll explore it right after a
quick word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
We've returned, and thankfully we have an answer to this question.
We don't always have an answer to questions, but in
this case we do. The formation of these organizations marked
a strange trend in the world of possession reports and
exorcism request As we said, there's still no publicly available
central database tracking the number of exorcisms performed, but we're
(38:34):
able to make some guesses about general trends based on
reports from these associated organizations. Influential priests like amorp himself
or Grama Lazo, and the reports of exorcists serving in
specific archdioceses.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
For several decades in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries,
reports of possession and you know, us for exorcisms had
been on the decline. They'd been reducing in number because
for years after the Roman Catholic Church's Second Vatican Council,
or what they called Vatican Two, that.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Was like God, everybody at our job uses that joke.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yeah, well, well, it resulted in new church practices, like
the official Church practices, that were deemed compatible with the
contemporary world. And in this case, with this Vatican Two,
it was taboo for priests to speak of Satan as
if a physical or a Satan actually existed.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Right, So not Satan as a real thing, Satan as
a metaphor for the struggle to grow closer to God.
That was nineteen sixty.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Two, Yeah, roughly around there, sixty two sixty five. However,
in the more recent decades, as we're getting closer to today,
exorcism requests didn't just start to grow. They didn't just
inch a little bit on the scale. They spiked way up,
especially here in the United States as well as in
(40:06):
the United Kingdom, and cultural scholars will often argue that
this rise is coming out of the you know, possibly
what you could see as the spike would be the
premiere of The Exorcist, which became a huge.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Blockbuster hit nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Along with subsequent Satanic panic that occurred here in the
United States and elsewhere in the late nineteen eighties and nineties,
where just interest in the scary parts of possession, interest
in belief that maybe there's Satanism occurring in the town
where you live, where groups of people are getting around
(40:43):
to worship Satan and hold rituals, and to the true believers, however,
this is a signal of something much larger at play.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
And this rise was such that as of twenty sixteen,
despite the formation of the Internationalist Nsociation of Exorcists, the
Catholic Church was having serious problems fielding all requests for exorcisms,
as many of the older exorcists were aging out or dying,
and many of the newer, less experienced priests were frightened
(41:15):
of enacting the rights. And again, this is you know,
serious stuff in this world. These individuals will be priests
for decades before they tackle their first you know, real exorcism.
Quote unquote to use the description in How Exorcism Works,
(41:37):
yet again a fantastic article by House of Works. I
did not write it, so I feel fine bragging about it.
It was written by Julia Layton, who always does wonderful
work for us. Two of the most prominent exorcists in
the United States, a fellow named Father Gary Thomas and
a fellow n in Father Vincent Lampert. Note that it's
(41:59):
not the church demanding more exorcisms, which it can do right.
It was on church orders that Mother Teresa was actually
exercised before her death, but rather the people, the lay folk,
and Father Lambert's experience. Only one out of every five
thousand or so request is someone afflicted by a full
(42:23):
demonic possession. He does say, however, that he is conducted
countless exorcisms related to demonic obsession, demonic vexation, and demonic infestation.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yeah, you'll also hear demonic oppression amongst those terms, where
it's slightly different, little different things going on. But it's
not a human being that has a demon inside of
them that needs to get.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Out, okay, right, So it's some kind of external.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
A lot of times externally.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
So maybe there might be a physical malady.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Or being influenced in some way.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Sure, and Father Lamport also says that half the calls
he receives are from non Catholics.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
And this, this is interesting. This is a point that
we need to make in defense of the Catholic Church's
process here a defense of the Church overall, of course,
But there's a pretty rigorous system built for the analysis
(43:32):
of an initial possession report. Because the Catholic Church and
the exorcists in the church are trained to come at
this from a very skeptical place. The first thing they
will do is consult with everyone else to find any
(43:52):
other cause.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
With people of science we're talking about, Yeah, people's psychologists
come out and make sure there's nothing else going on.
I see an actual physician, make sure there's no other malady.
I have to say that that part of this whole
process does make me, I don't know, think there might
(44:13):
be a little more sand to it, because the Church
itself as an organization is saying, well, we're going to
weed out the stuff that isn't actually possession.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Well, and also to be objective about it. The Catholic
Church is such a massive organization that if there were
not some sort of filtration system. It would just be
nundated these things, and it already it already is. We
(44:41):
think about the donations donation or donations mandatory.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
No, what I'm saying if you charged, if you had
mandatory donations for the performing the rights of exorcism and
you have that many requests coming.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
In, that is diabolical. That it is a terrible, terrible thing.
Oh boy, you know what, Father Gabriel Amor would not approve.
He has passed from this mortal plane. The organization, the
(45:20):
Association of Exorcists rather still exist and the current president
would probably also disagree.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Yeah, we have some quotes from him, father of Francesco Bamonte.
He says, quote, when listening to a prayer to the Virgin,
the demon shows all of his hatred and fear toward her.
He is forced to confirm that Mary is the mother
of God and that she intercedes for humanity. Satan is
(45:47):
not the God of evil against the God of good. Rather,
he is a being who God created as good and who,
with some angels also created good by God, became evil
because they refused God and his kingdom with their free
and final choice. Satan and the spirits at his service. Therefore,
are not omnipotent beings. They cannot perform miracles, they are
(46:10):
not omnipresent, They cannot know our thoughts or the future.
And just to know that that is a man speaking
in twenty sixteen. The current president of the International Association
of Exorcists truly believes, at least himself and in the
fairly large organization that he represents and heads, believes that
(46:33):
that is true. That is a problem that humanity must
be must continue to deal with.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
And they very much believe. Both monte and when he
was alive, very much believe that the that Satan is
a real thing. Right that a more Also, in regard
to the sexual scandals and corruption rocking the Vatican, he
believed there was evidence of corruption by the Antichrist, so
(47:06):
the foretold and much feared force of Satan embodied on
the planet. Right, he thought I was real and there
both of these, Both of these individuals and many of
the people serving in the International Association of Exorcists believe
(47:30):
that this rise in possession arise in reports of it
in an increasingly secular world, come about in reaction to
and relation with the division between spirituality and science. Right
(47:51):
as we said in this quote, So are people more
likely to be pass to say that would would require
us to say that possession itself is real or something
like it? Or are people just searching for some sort
(48:13):
of spiritual explanation that they find lacking an increasingly unspiritual
world at the time. Uncertain times and uncertain times, no
kidding man. At the time of this recording, exorcisms continue
to be on the rise. For the more skeptical in
the crowd, or those who wouldn't subscribe to the idea
(48:36):
of Catholicism or the Catholic perspective on exorcism, this indicates
hysteria or failure to recognize the difference between a good
popcorn worthy horror flick and the facts. For the true believers, however,
the late Father of Morth among them, this is indicative
of something else, something larger, something very dangerous and all
(49:01):
too frighteningly real. It is important to say that he
is not alone or was not alone, nor were his colleagues.
Other organizations have formed to combat the rising tide of
alleged possession and the rising request for exorcisms. There's the
Pope Leo, the Twelfth Institute based in Milwaukee, which was
(49:23):
founded in twenty twelve to support the quote spiritual formation
of priests, bring the light of Christ to dispel evil. Wow.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Yeah, And this thing it started as this just a
series of meetings, informal meetings at the request of bishops
in the United States. It wanted they wanted training. Really,
they needed more people who could perform exorcisms, so they
wanted education and training, and it was just It's also
a response to Pope Saint John Paul the Second's recommendation
(49:53):
that every single diocey should have an appointed exorcist, and
a spokesperson with the United States Bishop's Conference said, although
ideally every diocese should have its own exorcists, there are
no statistics kept by the Church to the actual the
factual numbers of how many exorcists there actually are.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
There are also classes and courses offered by the Church
on exorcism, and the Catholic Church has actively been training
experienced priests in the nuts and bolts of exorcism, how
to evaluate a case from day one, how to request permission,
and ultimately, if need be, how to act, how to
(50:35):
enact the right Here and on a side note, for this,
we should also acknowledge that while we have focused on
the Catholic Church's efforts to combat this rise in exorcism request,
they are not alone in the game. Other Christian denominations
(50:59):
evangelical as well, have also begun conduct combating what they
see as a rise in possessions in spiritual afflictions from
demonic forces. This is a rising tide across multiple things.
(51:19):
I guess what we're emphasizing here is this is not
a matter of three elderly or six elderly priests high
up in the Vatican social hierarchy who were able to
push through something that they were interested in, like that
high level executive at Sony who is able to push
(51:39):
through psychic experiments. Right, And this doesn't seem to end
after some of these folks have passed away. And we
want to ask you, we want to end more on
a question. Here, is possession or something like it real?
And do you think that these spiritual interpretations of it
(52:02):
are accurate or do you think they are a cultural
framework on something else? Right?
Speaker 2 (52:09):
And if so, what yah And what's the closest you
have come to experiencing a possession or exorcism? Have you
been looking peered through a door and seen one. Have
you been a part of one? We would love to
hear your stories.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
And then, perhaps more importantly, I won't speak for you, Matt,
but from I am more importantly, why is it on
the rise? Because that's the spookiest thing. Whether or not
you believe in this, whether or not you are Catholic,
whether or not you are spiritual in an any remote
(52:48):
six degrees of Kevin Bacon's sense of the term, it
is inarguable that these reports and requests are rising speak,
you know, fantastic segues. It's time for our corner.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Our first tweet comes from what up Saucy. Saucy says, Wow,
I'm still my pants from that gloomy Sunday episode. Well done, gentlemen,
hashtag Thursday.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Well thank you, thank you so much. We all, we
all really, uh we already all really put some blood,
sweat and tears and some late nights into that one,
and we're so glad that someone enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
Yeah, and you know, people have been asking us for
an unbleeped version, an uncensored version, but I don't think
you're gonna get one unless you search for it, and
you can find it online somewhere through the fringe festival,
which you might be able to. I, you know, I
would love to.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
I would love to get some version of that out.
We also have a When we originally wrote it, we
had no idea that we would eventually put it on
this show. No, so we really leaned into some language there.
But yeah, maybe we can get an uncentered version out.
We'll look for it. But we also will have some
(54:11):
more things like that on the way. So if you
enjoy that, stay tuned, and if you'd like to hear
more of them, write to our bosses directly, tag how
stuff works wherever you find the social media platform, say
we want more of this, and who knows.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
It might happen. You might make it come true.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Yeah, you might manifest it. Right. We have another shout
out from Kate Landis, who says conspiracy stuff. I once
went to the doctor for an abscess. They told me
that antibiotics don't do anything for a normal absess, but
that doctors like to prescribe them to make the patient
feel like something is being done. Then they prescribed me antibiotics.
(54:54):
I didn't take them.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
Hmmm, good on you, Kat Kate Kite, Kate ay Kite.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
I think it's Kate, oh with a little Australians.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
Yeah, Kite linis I will.
Speaker 1 (55:08):
I heard one of our I was checking on some
of one of our earlier episodes and you did a
great Australian accent.
Speaker 2 (55:14):
You know. I did the same thing, and you were
amazing at your Australian accent, did I?
Speaker 1 (55:19):
Yeah? Oh? Really? Yeah? Oh man, Okay, Well I can
only do it for maybe four very specific words, and
unfortunately none of them form a COHERI. But but to
Kate's points, that's that's a very valid concern. We know
that the over prescription of antibiotics has been a literal
(55:40):
case of something they don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
Yeah, making all the stuff that those antibiotics are supposed
to fight even stronger if you don't take the full
dose in the right amount of time, right, and uh yeah,
it's it's really bad. So then everybody else taking antibiotics
decreases their ability to fight the thing because the thing
is now stronger.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
We should maybe we should look into some of that,
the current state of antibiotics. We did Rise of the Superbug,
but I don't know if we've looked at I don't
know if we've looked at it too recently, and unfortunately
the situation is changing.
Speaker 2 (56:17):
Only getting worse.
Speaker 1 (56:18):
Man, I've pulled up Pandemic too again, that online game,
and I started to play it and it just got
too depressing because it could happen.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
Yeah, so that's a little too real for my taste. Well,
thank you for writing to us. When our last shout
out for the day comes from Sunshine Kid twenty one
and Sunshine Kid twenty one says, could you guys do
a podcast about root canals? I heard it was a
scam and it causes health problems, et cetera. Thanks. I
love the podcasts root canals as a conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (56:51):
That's interesting. I had heard that the metal filling that
is used Malcolm, that is, is that what it is
amalgam that is used in cavities can have dangerous health
effects potentially root canals I'm not too aware of, but
(57:13):
I will say it's honestly surprising that dentistry uses some
of the same old techniques and has for quite a while,
for decades. But it would be interesting to look into.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
Oh do you see that it's Josh and Chuck. They're
waving at us get out of the studio.
Speaker 1 (57:34):
Oh, I thought that was just a hello wave. Okay,
well I've just been waving to them for like five minutes,
so sorry.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
Maybe that's all they're doing. Oh nope, nope, I'm pretty
sure I know what that sign means.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
You're holding up a sign. It says this is the
end of your and they are correct. However, it is
not the end of the show. Matt, Paul, Nol and
I will be back very soon. We hope that you
will join us as well. In the meantime, you can
find us on Instagram, Twitter, You can find us on.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
Facebook, yeah, Facebook, and that stuff they don't want you
to know, dot Com where you can find every episode
we've ever produced, and some videos and some other stuff.
Pictures of Ben. If you want to look at pictures
of Ben, go to stuff they don't want you to
know dot com.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
You really sold me out on now one.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
And they're pictures of me too, And.
Speaker 1 (58:25):
There're a lot and you can find various different stories
up for one reason or another might not make it
on the show yet.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
Hey, are you listening to Ridiculous History yet? You should be.
It's the show that our friends Ben and Noel are hosting.
It is really fun and you guys are doing some
really fun stuff with guests on your show that you've
discussed with me about, and then I've been listening to
it as a fan because it's really really fun. Specifically
(58:54):
with our complaint department here on this show, mister Jonathan Strickland.
Speaker 1 (58:58):
Oh yeah, who is available for any complaints or concerns
twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, Jonathan
dot Strickland at HowStuffWorks dot com. And you know we
value the complaints gip us honest. Make sure you send
them to the right address so we can treat them
with the import they deserve. You might be asking why
why my longtime colleague Matt is not on the show
(59:21):
A Ridiculous History. There is a reason. It turns out
that Matt is one of the masterminds behind one of
the most popular shows on Apple podcast as we speak,
Atlanta Monster. If you like this show, you will love
Atlanta Monster.
Speaker 2 (59:37):
Yeah, subscribe today, new episodes every Friday. We're looking into
the missing and murdered children cases from nineteen seventy nine
to eighty one in Atlanta. So you know, start listening
if you're not already. And that's the end of this
classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about
(59:57):
this episode. You can get into contact with us in
a number of different ways. One of the best is
to give us a call. Our number is one eight
three three st d WYTK. If you don't want to
do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.