October 15, 2024 • 57 mins
German immigrant John Jacob Astor was the first multimillionaire in the United States, and his descendants would go on to play prominent roles in the country's history -- but how exactly did he get this enormous fortune? According to the official story, he started off in the fur trade and later expanded into real estate. Yet for more than a century people rumors about the real origin of Astor's wealth have been floating around the fringes of converation -- what if he wasn't a legitimate businessman in the beginning, but instead engaged in less savory endeavors? Learn more in tonight's Classic episode.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Oh me, Harty's this is our classic episode for this evening.
Oh man, did you guys like treasure stories and pirate
stories when you were kids? Yeah's heart? What's a hearty?
A hardy? I think it's just pirates slaying. If I'm
being honest, it means you don't have the scurvy, you're
(00:23):
you're a party. Yes, my dear heart or something. Maybe
I've never seen it spelled though. Is it spelled like
herty h E A R t y or h A
R d ys and boys? Well, Pirates were known for
a lot of things, but literacy was not one, So
I imagine they wrote it down several different ways.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Got it, it'd be time to plunder this classic episode.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yes, yes, yes, Oh there's a German immigrant. His name
John Jacob Astor, the first known multi millionaire in the
United States. But how did he get this? Agreed to
fortune as we were, I think all surprised to learn
(01:05):
the answer may lay in hidden pirate treasure. Depending on
who you ask. Caveat caveat asterisk, there are she blows yrs.
Let's roll it.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. There's
a Noll spaced hole to my left.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
There's a Noll hole. Indeed, they call me Ben. We
are joined as always with our super producer Paul mission
controlled decand who has recently been rethinking is Moniker and
maybe going with Paul Hollywood in a British accent. Most importantly,
you are you, You are here, and that makes this
(02:10):
stuff they don't want you to know. This is a
this is a strange episode for us, and and an
interesting story. There's a there are a couple of different
conspiratorial myths we run into here, and we also run
into the evolution of media and the great game of
telephone that we've mentioned in previous previous episodes. But before
(02:32):
we begin, Matt, I have to I have to ask you, yes,
do you think this summer will be the summer that
our hometown burns.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Down, that Atlanta burns again.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Just from the heat, this time not from interesting warfare?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
My goodness, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. We went
out my family and I went out to the Candler
Park Festival on Gosh was that Saturday? Yes, it was Saturday,
and just standing outside uncovered was a terrible thing. I
would not recommend it to anyone. Find a tree, get
underneath it and you'll be okay. The music is still
(03:10):
gonna sound great.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
There we go. That's the spirit. It's it's a it's
a positive, positive spin on a terrible, terrible thing. I
just landed back in town late yesterday night or early
this morning, I'm not sure which, and the thing that
hit me immediately was the heat. I'm just everyone who
(03:34):
lives here enjoys summer and autumn and all the hits,
all the all the slow jazz of the seasons until
summer comes. This is terrible, This is horrific. I have
no idea how hot or cold it is, you know,
in your neck of the global woods, folks, but please
send us. What do they say on Facebook? Thoughts and
(03:56):
prayers or better yet, ice cubes or those Did you
ever have those those weird little popsicles that came in
the plastic tubes when you were a kid? Yes, or
some of those. I'm burning up so much, you know.
The sun is my ancient nemesis anyway, I'm considering ice
pops as a treatment.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
It really is hot town somewhere in the city, back
of my neck, feeling.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Cool cat looking forward, kid, You're going to search in
every corner ru the city all around the people looking
have to walking on.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Oh, gonna get sued by that town and artists too.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I doubt it. I doubt it. But that is that
is a stone cold jam or a hellishly hot day.
So assuming that, assuming that the studio doesn't melt into
one interminable mass of plastic VOCs that's volatile organic compounds
chemicals a ka the basis of new carsmel and why
(05:02):
it will slowly kill you along with organic matter and mortar,
we will successfully finish this episode. This is a story
that encounters, as we said, so many different conspiratorial threads.
And while you were listening, we would like to invite
you to participate with us in pseudo real time. I
(05:25):
mean time itself is sort of a pseudo thing anyway, right, Yes, So,
if the mood strikes you, if the spirit so moves you,
as you are joining us today, don't hesitate. Don't feel
like you have to wait till the end to write
an email, you can go ahead and just give us
a call.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
We are one eight three three std WYTK. And if
you're like one of our listeners that we casually mentioned
at the end of the show, and I must say
in a way that I knew that only this listener
would understand that I was talking to her, you will
then leave. Six more message is over the weekends, so
(06:04):
please feel free to reach out with any kind of questions,
any kind of statements, especially if you come up with
something as we're talking about this episode.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yes, please, So let us begin to paraphrase HENREDA. Balozak.
Behind every great fortune, there is a great crime. It's
a thought that we've encountered multiple times, and that you
have probably encountered in your own life in any variety
of fronts. The concept here is that one cannot, regardless
(06:35):
of time and space, one cannot reach, regardless of time
and space, a certain threshold of financial success without somehow
purposefully or unwittingly gaining some part of that fortune through
criminal acts.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
And it's not it isn't necessarily criminal acts of that
person by gaining that wealth, because that wealth, then many
times is handed down right, So perhaps it's a criminal
act that your grandparents or your great grandparents, or even
further back, committing right right.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
So it's a known fact, for instance, that there are
people in the world who still enjoy the benefits their
ancestors reaped from things like the slave trade or colonialism.
There's also another case to be made if we want
to make a case about people who are unwittingly perhaps profiting.
For this, we could look at Silicon Valley and the
(07:31):
technocrats who live there, profiting off of the backbreaking human
rights abuses involved in the mining.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Industry, retaining the things they need to make their chips.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Right right, right, one way or the other. And this
quickly descends into a very sticky philosophical conversation. Are you
or I, if we own a smartphone, we also benefiting
from this? The answer is more or less yes. But
in this case, we're talking about the people who become millionaires, multimillionaires,
(08:07):
billionaires in the pursuit of these of these ambitions. Right. Yes.
In today's episode, we are traveling back in time, Fellow
conspiracy realist, we are exploring the story of one of
America's earliest tycoons, literally the first multi millionaire in the
United States, or perhaps officially is a better word than literally,
(08:30):
and will along the way dive into the speculation about
just how this one individual arrived at his fortune and
why this speculation continues today.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
And as we'll find out in this episode. As many others,
these stories have an official version and not so official versions.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yes, just so, here are the facts. Born Johann Jacob
Astor in Germany on j seventeenth, seventeen sixty three, John
Jacob Astor was the son of a butcher who would
go on to found a financial dynasty that continues in
some ways into the modern day.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
That's right. When he was, you know, a young man,
around seventeen years old, he went to London and he
started to work with one of his brothers, his older
brother George, and this this guy, George, made musical instruments,
and you know, it's interesting enough, but he wanted to
try something else. So in seventeen eighty four he left London.
He got out of town. He brought some some of
(09:34):
these instruments with him and just a little bit of
pocket money around twenty five dollars, and he traveled all
the way across the ocean to the United States to
try and find something fortune, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Right, right to seek his fortune. It's an American dreams story. Right.
Let's let's explore the official story about how this German
immigrant came to become America's first multi millionaire. So, as
you said, Matt, seventeen eighty four, he arrives, he's got
some flutes, he's got around twenty five dollars cash money,
(10:10):
as they would say. He arrives in Baltimore, and he
eventually makes his way up to New York City. While
he is in New York, he opens his own fur
trade shop in seventeen eighty six, so about two years
after he leaves Germany. He often at this time travels
out into the wilderness, just like his fur trappers do,
(10:35):
and he wants to find new sources for his shop.
This is a huge industry at this time, and this
was before concerns about preserving species were very widespread. It
was a foreign concept or an alien concept to many
of these trappers and traders that there would ever be
(10:56):
a day where it was difficult to obtain as many
repelts as one would wish.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, because the populations all start to dwindle. Because the
furred trade ends up being a really big thing well,
and just one quick thing here with Johann aka John Astor. Here.
He when he went to New York, he met up
with another brother, right, and he was working i think
at a butcher shop for a while with his brother,
(11:21):
and then he ended up trying his hand at baking,
cooking and these kind of things. And he was totally like,
I'm never gonna make enough money just working with my
hands at this level doing this kind of thing. And
that's one of the main reasons he went out to
seek out the.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Fur trade exactly because he could have easily spent the
bulk of his life laboring as a successful artisan, right yeah,
And instead he wanted something more. So he traveled to
what even today is known as the Land of Excess,
(11:56):
and the fur trade was appealing. It helped him get
a start again, according to the official story, but he
saved his he saved his pennies, he saved his scratch,
didn't party too hard at whatever their equivalent of Dave
and Busters was back then, And so it came to
pass that a few years later Astor was able to
make his first real estate investment, and as he was
(12:19):
diversifying into real estate, he was continuing to grow his
fur business. Eventually, Astor's fur trading interest becomes the country's
leading fur company by the turn of the century. He
also takes his reach international. He starts exporting fur directly
to China. In return, he is importing Chinese silk and tea,
(12:44):
which are you know, items of luxury, right with a
with a tremendously high profit margin, even counting in all
the dangers involved in international shipping at the time.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
And yeah, and you can see how that also becomes
very lucrative just the fact that he can ship goods
back and forth into different places and then even to China,
into different places in China. I mean, this is a
huge deal. This is how you really really make some money.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yes, exactly right, You go big, you go international. So
all of Astor's fur businesses has different, you know, different interests.
We talk about this. This occurs in business today. You
may see five different products on the same shelf in
the same section of a grocery store, and they're ultimately
all owned by the same place. Fingers on a hand, right,
(13:36):
So he goes public with this. He merges all of
his fur businesses into something he calls in a burst
of creativity, the American Fur Company in eighteen oh eight.
And we shouldn't be too hard on the guy. I'm
sure he had a lot going on. He just needed
something simple and to the point for the name.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, and I think if you can call something the
American anything, like, if that name hasn't been trademarked already,
I mean, go ahead and trademark it.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
That's great because that's similar to you know, I bet
you've stumbled onto an ad an AD cycle, like an
AD copy cycle. Maybe we've mentioned this before, but if
you're listening now, depending on how old or young you are,
you can probably look back in your life and notice
that marketing companies and ad companies go through this sort
(14:25):
of industry wide trend towards certain phrases.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I think there are times when everything is organic, or
in the nineties everything was digital. It didn't even matter
if it was an actual digital product, right, Yeah, absolutely,
And so maybe American was one of the first iterations
of that. I think that's I think you're probably right.
But regardless of our theories on the creativity or lack
(14:54):
thereof and the ad community, it turns out that this
was a very good move on his part and the US.
We have to remember this is just the dawn of
the nineteenth century. The US is still still in its
infancy in terms of what will later become the fifty
(15:15):
state beheamoth we know today. Lewis and Clark had just
ended their expedition to the west coast of the continent.
That was in what eighteen oh six, And after this
Astor when he learned about this expedition, he bought up
(15:35):
some land in Oregon where a fort was built in
eighteen eleven, and he had planned to build a settlement
called Astoria, not the most humble name, but you know,
he was by far not the only person doing this. Everybody.
Everybody was naming crap after themselves.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, and why not. I mean, that's pretty great eighteen
eleven building a thing called a Storia, which sound I mean,
it actually doesn't sound that bad. Well, it's not like
a story of Asterville or or Fordlandia.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, but we also have to consider, for being fair,
that the people would live there for thousands of years earlier,
probably had their own name for it.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Well, regardless, the reason he did not end up going
through with this was because of the War of eighteen twelve,
he ended up selling the outpost because Great Britain and
the United States had what people today would call a
messy breakup.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, I believe it was with a Canadian company that
purchased that from him, or Canadian interests at least.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Right, So he decided to get out while the getting
was good, you know what I mean? Because if he
had if he had owned that land and the US
ended up losing control over it or sovereignty over it,
would his deed of ownership still be honored.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah. Well, and indeed they did take over for like
forty years.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
And so he appeared to have made the right decision.
After the War of eighteen twelve, he made even more scratch,
even more cheddar, even more pony bones, whatever you want
to call it, because he had a bond deal with
the US government. At the same time. His wealth is
compounded by the fact that all the real estate in
(17:28):
New York City he owns begins the skyrocket in value.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And then he ends up getting out of the fur
business around eighteen thirties, and then he's really you know,
I guess he's realizing that the true money now is
in the accrude wealth of those properties. That he owns.
So he's spending a lot of time doing his real
estate management and all the estates, the investments he's you know,
(17:53):
at this point, he owns hotels, he owns places where
other people live, residences where people are paying rent essentially,
and that's where his time is spent and his money
really is made.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That's where he sees his most significant return. It's not
to say that being a landlord is easy by any means,
as I'm sure the landlord's listening here can attest. But
it is to say it's less work than sending people
out into the wild to try to capture dwindling populations
of wild animals in the hopes that affur retains its value.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And then sending a lot of the same people or
new other people you're hiring to then ship it across the.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
World, right and just hope nothing goes wrong. So that's
why he goes into real estate. And again, as the
official story, by the time Astor dies in eighteen forty eight,
he is the most wealthy man in the country. He
has an estimated fortune of around twenty million dollars. And
just let's give a little bit of perspective here, Paul
(18:54):
we're going to have an inflation calculator. Could you throw
us a sound cueue somewhere in the middle of this.
So twenty million dollars in eighteen forty eight is roughly equivalent.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
To six hundred and forty six million, nine hundred and
fifty six thousand, nine hundred and sixty two dollars and
three cents.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
In twenty nineteen. Yes, so almost like more than half
a billion dollars. Yes, most of his wealth, the vast majority,
goes to one guy, one of his uh seven children,
William Backhouse Astor. Yes, you heard that correctly. His middle
name is the words back and house together, William Backhouse Astor.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It just feels like something his friends called him, or
like he was a wrestler something.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
It does sound like weird. It's one of those yeah,
in joke nicknames. I'm sure it's it's it has a
logic and reason to it, but it sounds like, you know,
you know, how you meet different friend groups and one
of the members of the friend group just has has
a weird name that no one explains to you, just
have it, like.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Like, really, your name's Red Paladin. Okay, Sure, that's pretty okay?
Is that whatever you say.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Archie friends at Dragging Con, is that what's going on?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
No, my wife's making me watch Riverdale and it's killing me.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
It's Riverdale isn't a murder mystery now it is.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I can, like I survive because it is a murder mystery.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
But oh my god, is jug Head the killer? He
always struck me as the most sinister dude.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Jughead and FP are holding it down.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Who's fph Should I? Should? I? Just uh read the
reviews on Vox or something or.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
No, just know that FP is skeet ulrich and he
makes the show worth it for me, as well as
the late unfortunately Luke Perry, who is also awesome. There
are a lot of great there. There's the cast is wonderful.
The show itself is slightly infuriating.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Okay, slightly infuriating, that's the review.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
No, not in a bad way. It's just you can
tell it's written for maybe a slightly younger audience than me.
They do They do reference movies that came out the
year that they were in production, which is or you know,
a couple of years prior to being in production, which
is so interesting to have a separate universe. But Baby
Driver is still a thing.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
So is this on real quick? Is this on CW?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I don't even know it's one of the streaming services.
And I just want to play a little gargoyle Griffin's
and gargoyles now, So when you're ready, let's let's throw
down some dice and get the chalices. Oh God, I
don't know why I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Okay, Well, that's your official story, and it coincides with
the official story of John Jacob Astro. It's very difficult,
I imagine, for both of us not to say John
Jacob Jingelheimerschmidt every time. But anyway, Johnny j Aster, at
(22:03):
this point, posthumously, he looks to be a quintessential example
of the American dream. He has all the essential ingredients.
He's a hard working immigrant. He has risen to the
top achalons of society, not through undeserved inheritance, not because
of who his parents were, but because he combined hard
(22:26):
work with sharp wits, good old gumption, and no small
dose of good luck. However, for decades and decades, various
researchers have proposed another we could say conspiratorial narrative, a
less inspiring stranger explanation for the source of Astor's enormous wealth.
(22:51):
What if instead of earning it slowly over time, he
stole it all in one go.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And we'll learn about that right after a quick word
from our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Here's where it gets crazy. There's an alternate story about
John Jacob Aster's wealth. Let's say that the story of
his arrival to the North American continent is true up
to his early career as a fur trader. Okay, what
if the narrative takes a sharp turn shortly afterward. What if,
(23:30):
instead of continually evolving his business, Astor has a tremendous
amount of help from an unexpected discovery. Could his fortune
be based not on business acumen, but on the secret
discovery of buried treasure.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Now, before we get into this, this is why it's
so interesting to me, because one of the major things
you need in order to make money is to have
some money. Right, This is something we've established throughout all
of time, Memoriam. The connection here is that he just
needed a certain injection of funds early on to be
(24:09):
able to make some of the investments he made and
to grow that into a fortune. That's what everything else
we're talking about. That's what makes it so fascinating to me.
So there's this other person, this other person named William Kidd,
and he had this thing called pirate treasure. Okay, all right,
(24:32):
let's get into his life. So this dude was born
William Kidd. He was born in sixteen forty five. He
originally had a career focusing on privateering, but eventually he
was hired by European royals to attack foreign ships that
would encroach on land and would be enemies essentially.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Sure, yeah, or competitors, because we have to consider at
this point that trade and state craft were very closely,
very closely intertwined.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
And much of it is happening on the open seas,
and that's where the pirates come in.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yes, so, as so, he was a pirate hunter, and
he took the helm of a ship called the Adventure
Galley in sixteen ninety five. English investors had hired him
to be a privateer to hunt down the four investors
that were endangering there or as you know, his employer's
(25:29):
international trade deals. Now, hold on, Matt, hold on, Ben,
you might be saying, as you listen along here, I'm
pretty sure that Captain William Kidd is one of the
world's most notorious pirates from this era. And you were
telling me that he started out hunting pirates, he became
(25:50):
one of the same monsters he meant to eradicate. Yes,
that is exactly what we're saying.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
It's like he got bitten by a pirate and he became.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
A which is how it works. That's how it works exactly.
So the problem with his pirate hunting days was that
they couldn't He and his crew didn't really find the
ships they were supposed to attack. They were supposed to
attack some French ships, and they found very few of them.
(26:22):
And then in January of sixteen ninety eight, he caught
sight of something called the Quagda Merchant, which was rounding
the tip of India. This was an Armenian ship, weighed
five hundred tons. It carried gold, silk spices, all the hits.
They were owned in part by a minister at the
Indian Grand Mughal's court. This minister had powerful, powerful connections,
(26:49):
and when he learned that his vessel had been attacked,
he complained to the East India Company.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
M that's an old hit.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, And now the East India Company and the Grand
Mogul are saying, this guy is not legit, he's not
a pirate hunter. He's hurting the wrong ships. He is
not a pirate hunter. He is a pirate and so
begins his life on the wrong side of the law.
(27:21):
Turns out being on the wrong side of law did
not suit Kid over the long term, and he eventually
was arrested in Boston. Then he was shipped back to
England for his trial.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
And his court date was May eighth, seventeen oh one,
and he was found guilty and unfortunately for him, he
was hanged on May twenty third of that same year,
seventeen oh one. And again like one of the big
things here, there are some abhorrent things done to humans
(27:53):
and their bodies, you know, within in the past to
basically serve as warnings for other people to not do something.
And Captain William Kidd he was one of these people
because his body, after it was dead and hung, was
then put in a cage and hung up and it
was left or rot there for everyone to see. Everybody
(28:14):
who went down the Tims River, the one that goes
through London, so you know, don't be a pirate. Look
at that guy. He was a pirate.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
See what happens when you mess with the world's most
successful corporation. Right, yeah, So here's the thing. He's dead.
No one knows how much treasure he did or did
not have, and no one knows where he did or
(28:45):
did not put it.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
We did know that there was about ten thousand pounds
worth of treasure that was sent to pay for part
of the trial and a couple other things. Right, Yes,
there's something like that where it was not a lot
of money. I mean, ten thousand pounds at the time
is a lot of money, but it wasn't like the
full pirate bounty that you would think of.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Right. We do know that he did possess treasure. He
did deposit some of it on Gardeneer's Island, hoping to
use his knowledge of the treasure as a bargaining chip.
He also he also probably puts some in other places.
(29:30):
The thing is, no one knows exactly where that would be.
No one date has found this huge treasure trove. Before
he was hanged in seventeen oh one, he allegedly buried
some of his loot in the Caribbean. This was the
popular theory at the time, and despite the generations of
(29:53):
treasure hunters who have attempted to verify his claims more
or less in over the past three centuries. Nothing has
been recovered that would equal the rumors, because the rumors
are kind of like like Smoug's Horde of gold level
(30:18):
treasure trove, you know what I mean, not just a
box with some emeralds. This brings us background. So the
life and times of William Kiddon. He did get treasure,
we don't know how much. He put it in a
few places, and then he ducked and then he died,
and we don't know where those places are. So the
Astore connection. Could John Jacob Astor have somehow located a
(30:41):
piece of Kid's treasure? We will tell you the actual
answer after a word from our sponsors, and we're back.
There's more to this story than one might think it
first blush. It all traces back to a fellow named
(31:04):
Franklin Harvey Head.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yes, this gentleman, mister Head. He was a lawyer. He
was born in New York, and he worked in all over,
like really all over the place, Wisconsin, California, Utah, and
he ended up in Chicago. He was a bank director
and president of this place called the Chicago Malleable Iron Company,
another one of those awesome company titles or names that
(31:29):
is just if it's not there, we'll take it. But
in this case they added Malleable just to let you
know that iron was going to be shaped and changed,
which is pretty cool because again it's so funny. Sometimes
we forget that shaping iron into things and then cooling
it off was such a major advancement in human history.
(31:52):
There was a big deal and we need still they
needed a ton of iron to be produced.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
So this guy, Franklin Harbyhead, he he's the kind of
guy that has some wealth and he also likes to
show it off a little bit and also socialize with
other people that have some wealth.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Right, he's a social climber.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yes exactly. And you know one of the things that
he likes to do was write and publish these humorous
tales that he would use to try and impress his
wealthy friends.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yeah. Yeah, So the kind of people that he wants
to hang out with are not the novu riche there
is new money, got it. They're the kind of people
that he wants to hang out with are the equivalent
of American aristocrats. Their idea of success is to not
(32:49):
be associated with earning money, and indeed to look down
at times upon people who do work for a living.
Even if they're working for a living, is just them
owning a company, you know. Let's not forget this is
the country where someone once famously derided the Hilton family
by saying, oh, the Hiltons are they still letting rooms
(33:13):
to people? And for many of us listening, of course,
that is that is a surreal and cartoonish concept that
you would be condescending to someone for being good at something.
But this was the case. These were the sorts of
groups with whom had aspired to be associated. And you
(33:37):
can see why he is a person between two worlds
because he still has to work for a living. The shame, right,
the ignomy.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And just the last the thing that's most important in
order to feel as though he's included with those groups
the way been talking about here, it's very important to
note that the stories he was talking about would make
reference to historical figures that those people would recognize and know,
but they are made up.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Or or pander a bit to his friends, I would say,
more importantly, pander a bit to his friends by mentioning
their ancestry or the land that their families got back when,
you know, back when one of them had a job.
So the most important thing that you just point out there, Matt,
(34:26):
is that these stories which were whimsicals, satirical, they were
made up. They were made them upseas and they were
to quote Jonathan Strickland, aka the Quister, and they were
meant to they were meant to ingratiate him within these circles.
They were also not meant to be widely published outside,
(34:46):
because you know, the more people have access to a thing,
the less interesting or valuable it becomes. In this in again,
in this mindset. That's not how the world should work,
but that's how their mindset was functioning. We have some
examples in a work of his, a work of heads
called Shakespeare's Insomnia and the Causes Thereof. He claims that
(35:09):
newly discovered correspondence between Shakespeare, Sir Walter Raleigh, an actor
named William Kemp, and a money lender with a tremendously
offensive name, Mordecai Shylock all show that Shakespeare had difficulty
with money and marriage, and that this led to chronic insomnia,
and that his chronic insomnia manifests itself in many of
(35:31):
his works because various characters talk about sleeping or not sleeping.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah, they need to get some rest. Finally they can
be okay, yeah, fascinating and it's funny in a way.
I've not read the book, but just that concept alone
is humorous to me.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I get where he's going with it.
One of his books is the actual and only source,
only primary source for this story about Astor and William Kidd.
And here's how it happens. So Harvey Head is having
(36:10):
dinner with the daughter of a landscape architect named Frederick
Law Olmsted, and the subject of some property in Maine
comes up. And this is a place called Deer Island.
Olmsted owns land there and he spent maybe like a
summer there before he passed away. And based on this conversation,
(36:31):
Head decides he's going to have a little fun. Aha.
He thinks it's time for one of my classic moves,
one of my in joke books. I'm gonna absolutely kill
it with this crowd. What does he do?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Man with the olmsteads? Okay, well, and just another little
footnote here about Frederick Law Olmsted the architect who moved
there to Deer Mains Deer Island. It really was so
soon before his death. He ended up being put in
a I guess a facility because he was on his
way out almost immediately after moving there. Ended up being
(37:09):
a little a tragic little story there about him. You
can read more about in other places. But Head thought
it would be hilarious if he came up with this
backstory as to how one of Olmsted's I guess ancestors
helped John Astor, who was who's known widely known as
(37:33):
one of the most wealthy people in the world. All
these people know who at the Astor family is, and
John Astor came up with his idea of maybe here's
this secret, little this tale about how your ancestor helped
this guy become the wealthiest person in the world.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Right he writes a book called Studies in Early American History,
a notable lawsuit, and in this story. In this work
he which you can read online by the way, he
describes how Olmsted's descendants sued the Astor family to recover
William Kidd's pirate treasure. According to this account, one of
(38:13):
one of Astor's agents, or perhaps asked for himself. A
fur trapper discovered a buried treasure chest from the pirate
William Kidd on land that Olmsted's ancestors owned on Deer
Isle in Maine. This trapper stole the chest, but for
some reason did not know its actual value, so he
(38:34):
sold the chest to John Jacob Aster, and it became
the entire basis for the Astor family fortune in Head's
account generations. Later, the Olmsteds somehow discover this theft, and
they decided to sue the Astor clan for compensation, including
back rent on all his Manhattan real estate that you know,
(38:57):
because he had purchased it with his pirate treasure and
the stick there, you know, you see how it's almost
like an onion article. It just continues to escalate. But
the book itself is full of these nods and these winks,
and these tongues and these cheeks. It's full of tip
offs that it is not a work of fact, including
(39:19):
references to ancestors that don't exist, like Cod Mather Olmsted
or Oliver Cromwell Olmsted, neither of whom are real.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
But yeah, he's just throwing Olmsted on the bottom of
other important.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Figures right exactly, William Shakespeare, Olmsted, etc. So maybe the
biggest indicator that this story is completely fictional was that
there is no lawsuit. The book mentions a lawsuit and
bases itself on this lawsuit, but the lawsuit does not exist. Yeah,
it is not a thing. It's not real at.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Least, it's not written about in any papers and any
ledgers and anything that has been kept over all the years.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
In any legal documents proceedings. It's not cited as precedent
for anything. It doesn't exist.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Well, and in the account of Head, there's it's a
very specific claim of asking for five million dollars or
the equivalent, Yeah, five million dollars roughly, or just you know,
control over all of John Astor's property in Manhattan, which
everyone was easier, essentially what he will work with you. Yeah,
and it was like minus a couple cents for some
(40:25):
other thing. I mean, it's very very specific.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
So this is a little bit of conspiracy busting here.
This story was published in eighteen ninety two, and again
it was originally known to be fiction. The Olmsted's knew
it was fiction. The guy who wrote it, Head knew
it was fiction. He was just funny. But the problem
(40:48):
is that people at that time, in the late eighteen
hundreds early nineteen hundreds, were very, very similar to people
in the nineteen fifties or twenty nineteen, or we can
go ahead and reach to assume people in twenty fifty
They were desperate for news of the world's wealthy and
had a difficult time separating fact and fiction, differentiating between
(41:11):
you know, one news report on Facebook and in the
piece of fake news on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Right, Well, and let's talk about fact checking in the
eighteen hundreds, late eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Or how would hundred Yeah, how would you verify?
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Well, just how difficult it would be to have correspondence
between some like some law office somewhere else, let's say
in Maine, even if you're in New York or something,
just making that happen and trying to get any kind
of correspondence back and forth in a timely manner to
write or report on something. If let's say, in New
(41:44):
York City or Chicago, you came upon a copy of
this this work and you were unsure of it's you know,
it's veracity or it's the truth behind any of the stuff.
But it looks real and it's talking about people that
you you know. The name sell sound familiar. It looks
all familiar and who knows.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Hey, that reminds me. I can't remember if I told
you because we this this is the first time this
week we're hanging out. I went to Maine this weekend.
Oh did you mention? That?
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Was that the jumping off point to the other place
you went?
Speaker 1 (42:18):
No, No, it was actually I had to go to
Maine to make it back here.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Oh wow, okay, yeah it was.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
It was kind of sketchy. I was in Maine in
an undisclosed location on a ramp for two hours or so. Whoa, yeah,
because someone went wrong with the plane. That's how I
ended up in Maine. I don't know if it counts.
I guess I can't say I went to Maine because
(42:45):
I wasn't allowed outside of the plane. Yeah, but I'm
still gonna count it, and one day I'll one day
I'll walk in Maine as a freeman. But today, with
this weekend, was not that weekend. So yeah, if you're listening,
you're in Maine, tell me what it's like outside outside
of a vehicle. I want to check it out. I here.
(43:08):
Now is a good time to visit Maine as well,
because it's not you know, snowed in and Stephen Kingy.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
All right, well I'll definitely.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Do you want to go to Maine sometimes? Yeah, let's
go to Maine, Paul, Do you want to go to Maine?
Paul Hollywood. Okay, he's given us a nod.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
That was an enthusiastic nod. Well, yes, you're you're absolutely right.
It's easier now to differentiate between fact and fiction. But
then it took a lot of legwork. Right. The problems
starts a compound when a magazine called Liberty publishes an
account of this story as though it is fact. And
(43:47):
this is for comparison. This is the very similar to
the Internet rumors about celebrities that will uh that will
still make the rounds today, like what's that? What's that one?
Richard gear in the Gerbil? Remember that that old chestnut?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Okay, good, because we still want this to be a
family show. Yes, google it, but not on your word computer.
This was presented as though it were factual when it
was literally the equivalent of a mad magazine for insiders
or an onion newspaper. And then it gets even worse.
(44:29):
It gets codified into history nineteen twenty six, when a
historian in California presents this story as though it is true,
and everyone essentially falls for it. It's published. Not just
in papers in California do they say this historian figured
this out, Not just in papers in New York do
they say this historians figured it out? And not just
in Maine do they say this. They say it around
(44:51):
the world, and now people continue to believe it, and
you'll hear it floated as some sort of his historical conspiracy,
right that that not only is it true that at
the heart of every great fortune lay a great crime,
but that we know the great crime of John Jacob Astro,
(45:15):
which is stealing from pirates, and that's escape Architects.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Well, there's even a I think it's a History Channel show,
I don't even know if it's in production right now,
called Unearthed, uh huh, where at one point they, you know,
they craft this whole episode about how this guy finds
out that there's a secret number of correspondence and within
this book that was written by Head that basically translates
(45:44):
or represents the coordinates to this place on Deer Island
where the treasure still remains, and they apparently they go
throughout the entire episode just pretending like it's real until
they end up, you know, discussing at the end and
finding out, oh, this was all just in historical fiction account.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh yeah, America Onearthed, that's the name. Yeah, so a
bit about that genre of show, Matt, You and I
have had run ins with creators of shows like this,
not specifically America on Earthed. I don't want to dign them.
(46:22):
I haven't watched the show, but I am aware of
what you're talking about. Uh, what we have seen is
that the companies creating these shows have a propensity to
prize you know, what they see as as a clickbaity headline,
(46:43):
the broadcast equivalent thereof, over facts and investigations. So we've
been in situations where and not to brag about us
or anything or this show, but we've been in situations
where we have just walked away from offers to collaborate
these sorts of projects because we feel that they are
(47:04):
at the very least wildly misleading. Yes, I am I
being diplomatic enough. When they saw that you really are.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
I think. I think at the heart of it, you
would say that sensationalism is paramount because it will get
eyeballs on the screen on the correct channel configuration that
you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
I mean, I mean, I guess, but but that leaves
but that leaves people in such a lurch. You know,
when when you see this kind of wackado presentation of
things at the very end someone says, you know, it's
like at the very end of a pharmaceutical commercial, which
(47:49):
is a crazy thing anyway, or the very end of
a car commercial where the fine print person comes in
and they say, you know, the following account is based
on a satirical fictional work published in the late at
hundreds by Franklin Head, which has little or nothing to
do with the facts of the matter. It's so great,
you know what I mean, that's it and I get
it that it's entertainment, but it should not be entertainment
(48:11):
disguised as you know, disguised as some sort of factual investigation.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
I always think about the Mermaids show.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Yeah, have we mentioned that on Era? We have, right,
we did.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
I think we did an podcast episode on it, but
we definitely did a video on it.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Yeah. So, years and years back, Matt, you and I
were asked to participate in something between participating something that
was again wildly misleading and not a not a small
(48:47):
bit exploitative. Someone had put out this documentary documentary that
was purporting to be a documentary about the discovery of
mermaids roommates have finally been discovered. They were real. Here
they are, And we were asked to I think we
talked about this on our Facebook group earlier. Here's where
(49:09):
it gets crazy. As our Facebook group, we were asked
to dive into, dive into this documentary and present our
take on it as though it were true. We refused.
This was also, I think one of the only times
anyone had ever specifically asked us to do something.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Yeah right, And it's also why Discovery sold the whole
company because they were like Ben, Matt, Nope.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Won't play ball, right, We were the mice that right
in the elephant. That's that's also myth elephants don't care.
Frankly I wrote that yet. So, if anything, this is
a cautionary tale.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
It is.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Virtually certain that more myths like this propagate, mass grading
this fact in your day to day experiences. For your
entire life, you know what I mean? There are tons
of things that the equivalent of three kids in a
trench coat pretending to be an adult, which I'm just
(50:17):
that's just a great image. That's why I'm putting that
in there. So the good news is that armed with
this information, more and more people are not wasting time
trying to trying to find some kind of William Kidd
treasure in Maine instead, because even in that story, that's
(50:38):
a weird thing about Dear Island. Even in that story
the treasure is taken. But more and more people are
searching for kids treasure in other places that are based
on their understanding as actual voyages, and oddly enough, more
and more people claim to find this treasure with each
passing decade. There's a recent example which makes a lot
(50:59):
more so, Vents from Madagascar in twenty fifteen, and the
title of it get this, You're gonna love this.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
How many times are we going to find Captain Kid's treasure?
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Right? So, the first line is from New Jersey to Vietnam.
There's barely a swatch of the world left untouched by
the swashbuckling pirate. Captain Kid's evasive legacy. In twenty fifteen,
an explorer named Barry Clifford says he's discovered a sunken
treasure at the bottom of the Indian Ocean off the
coast of Madagascar. He found a one hundred pound silver
(51:35):
bar with strange markings on it, and he said, this
is a remnant of the pirate's wrecked ship, because he
did wreck as ship in Madagascar. So the thing is
that there are so many shipwrecks throughout these oceans of hours.
Finding something is one thing, but then proving its providence
(51:56):
is another, and it's more difficult, perhaps than you might think.
So Kid's treasure may have been discovered. It leads us
to a larger question, though, do you think that there
is still buried treasure out there that remains undiscovered? Where
could it be located? And I know this episode may
(52:16):
have been a bit of a bummer because we did
bust a conspiracy kind of, but this leads us to
I would argue more important conspiracy for our day and age.
Do you think that someone could pull off something like
Franklin Head did.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
Ooh and like make up a story and then the
modern day make everyone think it's real. Yeah, ah, yeah,
for sure. Think about some of the viral videos that
have occurred where it's one of these small groups of
video audio video professionals that are making fake things about
a bear attack or like an almost bear attack, or
(52:58):
I'm trying to think of some of the exact examples,
and if you know some of these or give us
a call. But there's somewhere it's been absolutely proven to
be false. Oh the one there was like Justin Bieber
eating a burrito like from the middle or something like that,
where it became a national news story in all of
these places, but it was just these guys. Somebody dressed
up like Justin Bieber and ate a burrito from the
(53:19):
center and it became a thing. I think it's probably
pretty easy now because of the rapid rate that everyone
wants to pick up a story and you kind of
have to in order to be relevant. You've got to
get it in your feed somehow. So I think it's
I bet it's easier. Now.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
That's interesting. We should do an episode on deep fakes
in general, right, yeah, yeah, So let us know what
your examples are, or if you were to perpetuate a
myth of this nature, what would it be and why
There's one example that someone recently posted on Here's Where
It Gets Crazy that I would like to read because
(53:58):
it just sounds like a great time. You want to
hear it?
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yes? Please?
Speaker 1 (54:04):
This comes from Wayward Sun, who said, in the latest
episode you fellas pose the question what mystery would you
like to leave the world trolling? Of course, I want
to rob a house, he says. Stay with me. I
want to steal someone's entire house. Now, this would take
a lot of resources, but the mechanics are pretty straightforward.
It would have to be a rural area where there
(54:25):
are less neighbors and they are farther between. Wait for
some poor, unsuspected family to go on a long vacation,
then hire a house moving company. Of course, there would
have to be planning a fluid capital to asswash the
house movers from spilling the beans. Then you simply jack
the house up and off we go with everything inside.
The family comes home to an empty space, disbelief and
hilarity ensue, and then we go down in historical anonymity
(54:49):
as the unknown perpetrators of the greatest unsolved mystery of
all times. Step aside, go Beckley Teppe.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Wow, I want to say I'm on board. You're still
stealing a house, even even jokingly.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
There, I'm on board. I'm on board if through some
ridiculous series of circumstances they get their house back. Yes,
so I think it's more of a troll move for
the house to show to show up later all their stuff.
Speaker 2 (55:17):
I think it's way funnier if it's moved only slightly.
Maybe it's only a couple of feet over, like beyond
a gate or something. Now it's behind the gate and
it used to be on the other side of the gate.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Yeah. Yeah, David Kope says, break into a house and
move everything over two to three inches.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Uh. And then you know, also I had this idea too,
Uh why not don't why not replace the house, don't
just steal it, replace it with a nicer house.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
But all the stuff is still in All.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
The stuff is still in the house, all the same stuff.
And then have one empty room. Yeah that doesn't exist
in the in the old house. And in there leave
leave the room absolutely blank except for a Manila envelope
on the floor, and it has a VHS tape of
the bearn steam Bears. Right.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
But see, you're just describing the Netflix revival of Queer Eye.
Really just put a whole new house there.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
What happens? I've watched it.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
All your facial care products are replaced. I don't know
how it works. My wife makes me watch a lot
of TV.
Speaker 1 (56:28):
I see, I see.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
Well.
Speaker 1 (56:29):
I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying some of it.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
I really am.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't
wait to hear your thoughts. We try to be easy
to find online. Find it to the handle Conspiracy Stuff
where we exist on Facebook X and YouTube, on Instagram
and TikTok. We're conspiracy Stuff.
Speaker 2 (56:47):
Show call our number. It's one eight three three st
d w y t K.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
Leave a voicemail and if you have more to say,
we can't wait to hear from you at our good
old fashioned email address where we are conspiracy at iHeartRadio
dot com.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Oh me, Harty's this is our classic episode for this evening.
Oh man, did you guys like treasure stories and pirate
stories when you were kids? Yeah's heart? What's a hearty?
A hardy? I think it's just pirates slaying. If I'm
being honest, it means you don't have the scurvy, you're
(00:23):
you're a party. Yes, my dear heart or something. Maybe
I've never seen it spelled though. Is it spelled like
herty h E A R t y or h A
R d ys and boys? Well, Pirates were known for
a lot of things, but literacy was not one, So
I imagine they wrote it down several different ways.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Got it, it'd be time to plunder this classic episode.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yes, yes, yes, Oh there's a German immigrant. His name
John Jacob Astor, the first known multi millionaire in the
United States. But how did he get this? Agreed to
fortune as we were, I think all surprised to learn
(01:05):
the answer may lay in hidden pirate treasure. Depending on
who you ask. Caveat caveat asterisk, there are she blows yrs.
Let's roll it.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. There's
a Noll spaced hole to my left.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
There's a Noll hole. Indeed, they call me Ben. We
are joined as always with our super producer Paul mission
controlled decand who has recently been rethinking is Moniker and
maybe going with Paul Hollywood in a British accent. Most importantly,
you are you, You are here, and that makes this
(02:10):
stuff they don't want you to know. This is a
this is a strange episode for us, and and an
interesting story. There's a there are a couple of different
conspiratorial myths we run into here, and we also run
into the evolution of media and the great game of
telephone that we've mentioned in previous previous episodes. But before
(02:32):
we begin, Matt, I have to I have to ask you, yes,
do you think this summer will be the summer that
our hometown burns.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Down, that Atlanta burns again.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Just from the heat, this time not from interesting warfare?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
My goodness, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. We went
out my family and I went out to the Candler
Park Festival on Gosh was that Saturday? Yes, it was Saturday,
and just standing outside uncovered was a terrible thing. I
would not recommend it to anyone. Find a tree, get
underneath it and you'll be okay. The music is still
(03:10):
gonna sound great.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
There we go. That's the spirit. It's it's a it's
a positive, positive spin on a terrible, terrible thing. I
just landed back in town late yesterday night or early
this morning, I'm not sure which, and the thing that
hit me immediately was the heat. I'm just everyone who
(03:34):
lives here enjoys summer and autumn and all the hits,
all the all the slow jazz of the seasons until
summer comes. This is terrible, This is horrific. I have
no idea how hot or cold it is, you know,
in your neck of the global woods, folks, but please
send us. What do they say on Facebook? Thoughts and
(03:56):
prayers or better yet, ice cubes or those Did you
ever have those those weird little popsicles that came in
the plastic tubes when you were a kid? Yes, or
some of those. I'm burning up so much, you know.
The sun is my ancient nemesis anyway, I'm considering ice
pops as a treatment.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
It really is hot town somewhere in the city, back
of my neck, feeling.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Cool cat looking forward, kid, You're going to search in
every corner ru the city all around the people looking
have to walking on.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Oh, gonna get sued by that town and artists too.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I doubt it. I doubt it. But that is that
is a stone cold jam or a hellishly hot day.
So assuming that, assuming that the studio doesn't melt into
one interminable mass of plastic VOCs that's volatile organic compounds
chemicals a ka the basis of new carsmel and why
(05:02):
it will slowly kill you along with organic matter and mortar,
we will successfully finish this episode. This is a story
that encounters, as we said, so many different conspiratorial threads.
And while you were listening, we would like to invite
you to participate with us in pseudo real time. I
(05:25):
mean time itself is sort of a pseudo thing anyway, right, Yes, So,
if the mood strikes you, if the spirit so moves you,
as you are joining us today, don't hesitate. Don't feel
like you have to wait till the end to write
an email, you can go ahead and just give us
a call.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
We are one eight three three std WYTK. And if
you're like one of our listeners that we casually mentioned
at the end of the show, and I must say
in a way that I knew that only this listener
would understand that I was talking to her, you will
then leave. Six more message is over the weekends, so
(06:04):
please feel free to reach out with any kind of questions,
any kind of statements, especially if you come up with
something as we're talking about this episode.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yes, please, So let us begin to paraphrase HENREDA. Balozak.
Behind every great fortune, there is a great crime. It's
a thought that we've encountered multiple times, and that you
have probably encountered in your own life in any variety
of fronts. The concept here is that one cannot, regardless
(06:35):
of time and space, one cannot reach, regardless of time
and space, a certain threshold of financial success without somehow
purposefully or unwittingly gaining some part of that fortune through
criminal acts.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
And it's not it isn't necessarily criminal acts of that
person by gaining that wealth, because that wealth, then many
times is handed down right, So perhaps it's a criminal
act that your grandparents or your great grandparents, or even
further back, committing right right.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
So it's a known fact, for instance, that there are
people in the world who still enjoy the benefits their
ancestors reaped from things like the slave trade or colonialism.
There's also another case to be made if we want
to make a case about people who are unwittingly perhaps profiting.
For this, we could look at Silicon Valley and the
(07:31):
technocrats who live there, profiting off of the backbreaking human
rights abuses involved in the mining.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Industry, retaining the things they need to make their chips.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Right right, right, one way or the other. And this
quickly descends into a very sticky philosophical conversation. Are you
or I, if we own a smartphone, we also benefiting
from this? The answer is more or less yes. But
in this case, we're talking about the people who become millionaires, multimillionaires,
(08:07):
billionaires in the pursuit of these of these ambitions. Right. Yes.
In today's episode, we are traveling back in time, Fellow
conspiracy realist, we are exploring the story of one of
America's earliest tycoons, literally the first multi millionaire in the
United States, or perhaps officially is a better word than literally,
(08:30):
and will along the way dive into the speculation about
just how this one individual arrived at his fortune and
why this speculation continues today.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
And as we'll find out in this episode. As many others,
these stories have an official version and not so official versions.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yes, just so, here are the facts. Born Johann Jacob
Astor in Germany on j seventeenth, seventeen sixty three, John
Jacob Astor was the son of a butcher who would
go on to found a financial dynasty that continues in
some ways into the modern day.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
That's right. When he was, you know, a young man,
around seventeen years old, he went to London and he
started to work with one of his brothers, his older
brother George, and this this guy, George, made musical instruments,
and you know, it's interesting enough, but he wanted to
try something else. So in seventeen eighty four he left London.
He got out of town. He brought some some of
(09:34):
these instruments with him and just a little bit of
pocket money around twenty five dollars, and he traveled all
the way across the ocean to the United States to
try and find something fortune, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Right, right to seek his fortune. It's an American dreams story. Right.
Let's let's explore the official story about how this German
immigrant came to become America's first multi millionaire. So, as
you said, Matt, seventeen eighty four, he arrives, he's got
some flutes, he's got around twenty five dollars cash money,
(10:10):
as they would say. He arrives in Baltimore, and he
eventually makes his way up to New York City. While
he is in New York, he opens his own fur
trade shop in seventeen eighty six, so about two years
after he leaves Germany. He often at this time travels
out into the wilderness, just like his fur trappers do,
(10:35):
and he wants to find new sources for his shop.
This is a huge industry at this time, and this
was before concerns about preserving species were very widespread. It
was a foreign concept or an alien concept to many
of these trappers and traders that there would ever be
(10:56):
a day where it was difficult to obtain as many
repelts as one would wish.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, because the populations all start to dwindle. Because the
furred trade ends up being a really big thing well,
and just one quick thing here with Johann aka John Astor. Here.
He when he went to New York, he met up
with another brother, right, and he was working i think
at a butcher shop for a while with his brother,
(11:21):
and then he ended up trying his hand at baking,
cooking and these kind of things. And he was totally like,
I'm never gonna make enough money just working with my
hands at this level doing this kind of thing. And
that's one of the main reasons he went out to
seek out the.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Fur trade exactly because he could have easily spent the
bulk of his life laboring as a successful artisan, right yeah,
And instead he wanted something more. So he traveled to
what even today is known as the Land of Excess,
(11:56):
and the fur trade was appealing. It helped him get
a start again, according to the official story, but he
saved his he saved his pennies, he saved his scratch,
didn't party too hard at whatever their equivalent of Dave
and Busters was back then, And so it came to
pass that a few years later Astor was able to
make his first real estate investment, and as he was
(12:19):
diversifying into real estate, he was continuing to grow his
fur business. Eventually, Astor's fur trading interest becomes the country's
leading fur company by the turn of the century. He
also takes his reach international. He starts exporting fur directly
to China. In return, he is importing Chinese silk and tea,
(12:44):
which are you know, items of luxury, right with a
with a tremendously high profit margin, even counting in all
the dangers involved in international shipping at the time.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
And yeah, and you can see how that also becomes
very lucrative just the fact that he can ship goods
back and forth into different places and then even to China,
into different places in China. I mean, this is a
huge deal. This is how you really really make some money.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yes, exactly right, You go big, you go international. So
all of Astor's fur businesses has different, you know, different interests.
We talk about this. This occurs in business today. You
may see five different products on the same shelf in
the same section of a grocery store, and they're ultimately
all owned by the same place. Fingers on a hand, right,
(13:36):
So he goes public with this. He merges all of
his fur businesses into something he calls in a burst
of creativity, the American Fur Company in eighteen oh eight.
And we shouldn't be too hard on the guy. I'm
sure he had a lot going on. He just needed
something simple and to the point for the name.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, and I think if you can call something the
American anything, like, if that name hasn't been trademarked already,
I mean, go ahead and trademark it.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
That's great because that's similar to you know, I bet
you've stumbled onto an ad an AD cycle, like an
AD copy cycle. Maybe we've mentioned this before, but if
you're listening now, depending on how old or young you are,
you can probably look back in your life and notice
that marketing companies and ad companies go through this sort
(14:25):
of industry wide trend towards certain phrases.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I think there are times when everything is organic, or
in the nineties everything was digital. It didn't even matter
if it was an actual digital product, right, Yeah, absolutely,
And so maybe American was one of the first iterations
of that. I think that's I think you're probably right.
But regardless of our theories on the creativity or lack
(14:54):
thereof and the ad community, it turns out that this
was a very good move on his part and the US.
We have to remember this is just the dawn of
the nineteenth century. The US is still still in its
infancy in terms of what will later become the fifty
(15:15):
state beheamoth we know today. Lewis and Clark had just
ended their expedition to the west coast of the continent.
That was in what eighteen oh six, And after this
Astor when he learned about this expedition, he bought up
(15:35):
some land in Oregon where a fort was built in
eighteen eleven, and he had planned to build a settlement
called Astoria, not the most humble name, but you know,
he was by far not the only person doing this. Everybody.
Everybody was naming crap after themselves.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, and why not. I mean, that's pretty great eighteen
eleven building a thing called a Storia, which sound I mean,
it actually doesn't sound that bad. Well, it's not like
a story of Asterville or or Fordlandia.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, but we also have to consider, for being fair,
that the people would live there for thousands of years earlier,
probably had their own name for it.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Well, regardless, the reason he did not end up going
through with this was because of the War of eighteen twelve,
he ended up selling the outpost because Great Britain and
the United States had what people today would call a
messy breakup.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, I believe it was with a Canadian company that
purchased that from him, or Canadian interests at least.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Right, So he decided to get out while the getting
was good, you know what I mean? Because if he
had if he had owned that land and the US
ended up losing control over it or sovereignty over it,
would his deed of ownership still be honored.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah. Well, and indeed they did take over for like
forty years.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
And so he appeared to have made the right decision.
After the War of eighteen twelve, he made even more scratch,
even more cheddar, even more pony bones, whatever you want
to call it, because he had a bond deal with
the US government. At the same time. His wealth is
compounded by the fact that all the real estate in
(17:28):
New York City he owns begins the skyrocket in value.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And then he ends up getting out of the fur
business around eighteen thirties, and then he's really you know,
I guess he's realizing that the true money now is
in the accrude wealth of those properties. That he owns.
So he's spending a lot of time doing his real
estate management and all the estates, the investments he's you know,
(17:53):
at this point, he owns hotels, he owns places where
other people live, residences where people are paying rent essentially,
and that's where his time is spent and his money
really is made.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That's where he sees his most significant return. It's not
to say that being a landlord is easy by any means,
as I'm sure the landlord's listening here can attest. But
it is to say it's less work than sending people
out into the wild to try to capture dwindling populations
of wild animals in the hopes that affur retains its value.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And then sending a lot of the same people or
new other people you're hiring to then ship it across the.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
World, right and just hope nothing goes wrong. So that's
why he goes into real estate. And again, as the
official story, by the time Astor dies in eighteen forty eight,
he is the most wealthy man in the country. He
has an estimated fortune of around twenty million dollars. And
just let's give a little bit of perspective here, Paul
(18:54):
we're going to have an inflation calculator. Could you throw
us a sound cueue somewhere in the middle of this.
So twenty million dollars in eighteen forty eight is roughly equivalent.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
To six hundred and forty six million, nine hundred and
fifty six thousand, nine hundred and sixty two dollars and
three cents.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
In twenty nineteen. Yes, so almost like more than half
a billion dollars. Yes, most of his wealth, the vast majority,
goes to one guy, one of his uh seven children,
William Backhouse Astor. Yes, you heard that correctly. His middle
name is the words back and house together, William Backhouse Astor.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It just feels like something his friends called him, or
like he was a wrestler something.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
It does sound like weird. It's one of those yeah,
in joke nicknames. I'm sure it's it's it has a
logic and reason to it, but it sounds like, you know,
you know, how you meet different friend groups and one
of the members of the friend group just has has
a weird name that no one explains to you, just
have it, like.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Like, really, your name's Red Paladin. Okay, Sure, that's pretty okay?
Is that whatever you say.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Archie friends at Dragging Con, is that what's going on?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
No, my wife's making me watch Riverdale and it's killing me.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
It's Riverdale isn't a murder mystery now it is.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I can, like I survive because it is a murder mystery.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
But oh my god, is jug Head the killer? He
always struck me as the most sinister dude.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Jughead and FP are holding it down.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Who's fph Should I? Should? I? Just uh read the
reviews on Vox or something or.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
No, just know that FP is skeet ulrich and he
makes the show worth it for me, as well as
the late unfortunately Luke Perry, who is also awesome. There
are a lot of great there. There's the cast is wonderful.
The show itself is slightly infuriating.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Okay, slightly infuriating, that's the review.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
No, not in a bad way. It's just you can
tell it's written for maybe a slightly younger audience than me.
They do They do reference movies that came out the
year that they were in production, which is or you know,
a couple of years prior to being in production, which
is so interesting to have a separate universe. But Baby
Driver is still a thing.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
So is this on real quick? Is this on CW?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I don't even know it's one of the streaming services.
And I just want to play a little gargoyle Griffin's
and gargoyles now, So when you're ready, let's let's throw
down some dice and get the chalices. Oh God, I
don't know why I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Okay, Well, that's your official story, and it coincides with
the official story of John Jacob Astro. It's very difficult,
I imagine, for both of us not to say John
Jacob Jingelheimerschmidt every time. But anyway, Johnny j Aster, at
(22:03):
this point, posthumously, he looks to be a quintessential example
of the American dream. He has all the essential ingredients.
He's a hard working immigrant. He has risen to the
top achalons of society, not through undeserved inheritance, not because
of who his parents were, but because he combined hard
(22:26):
work with sharp wits, good old gumption, and no small
dose of good luck. However, for decades and decades, various
researchers have proposed another we could say conspiratorial narrative, a
less inspiring stranger explanation for the source of Astor's enormous wealth.
(22:51):
What if instead of earning it slowly over time, he
stole it all in one go.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And we'll learn about that right after a quick word
from our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Here's where it gets crazy. There's an alternate story about
John Jacob Aster's wealth. Let's say that the story of
his arrival to the North American continent is true up
to his early career as a fur trader. Okay, what
if the narrative takes a sharp turn shortly afterward. What if,
(23:30):
instead of continually evolving his business, Astor has a tremendous
amount of help from an unexpected discovery. Could his fortune
be based not on business acumen, but on the secret
discovery of buried treasure.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Now, before we get into this, this is why it's
so interesting to me, because one of the major things
you need in order to make money is to have
some money. Right, This is something we've established throughout all
of time, Memoriam. The connection here is that he just
needed a certain injection of funds early on to be
(24:09):
able to make some of the investments he made and
to grow that into a fortune. That's what everything else
we're talking about. That's what makes it so fascinating to me.
So there's this other person, this other person named William Kidd,
and he had this thing called pirate treasure. Okay, all right,
(24:32):
let's get into his life. So this dude was born
William Kidd. He was born in sixteen forty five. He
originally had a career focusing on privateering, but eventually he
was hired by European royals to attack foreign ships that
would encroach on land and would be enemies essentially.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Sure, yeah, or competitors, because we have to consider at
this point that trade and state craft were very closely,
very closely intertwined.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
And much of it is happening on the open seas,
and that's where the pirates come in.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yes, so, as so, he was a pirate hunter, and
he took the helm of a ship called the Adventure
Galley in sixteen ninety five. English investors had hired him
to be a privateer to hunt down the four investors
that were endangering there or as you know, his employer's
(25:29):
international trade deals. Now, hold on, Matt, hold on, Ben,
you might be saying, as you listen along here, I'm
pretty sure that Captain William Kidd is one of the
world's most notorious pirates from this era. And you were
telling me that he started out hunting pirates, he became
(25:50):
one of the same monsters he meant to eradicate. Yes,
that is exactly what we're saying.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
It's like he got bitten by a pirate and he became.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
A which is how it works. That's how it works exactly.
So the problem with his pirate hunting days was that
they couldn't He and his crew didn't really find the
ships they were supposed to attack. They were supposed to
attack some French ships, and they found very few of them.
(26:22):
And then in January of sixteen ninety eight, he caught
sight of something called the Quagda Merchant, which was rounding
the tip of India. This was an Armenian ship, weighed
five hundred tons. It carried gold, silk spices, all the hits.
They were owned in part by a minister at the
Indian Grand Mughal's court. This minister had powerful, powerful connections,
(26:49):
and when he learned that his vessel had been attacked,
he complained to the East India Company.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
M that's an old hit.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, And now the East India Company and the Grand
Mogul are saying, this guy is not legit, he's not
a pirate hunter. He's hurting the wrong ships. He is
not a pirate hunter. He is a pirate and so
begins his life on the wrong side of the law.
(27:21):
Turns out being on the wrong side of law did
not suit Kid over the long term, and he eventually
was arrested in Boston. Then he was shipped back to
England for his trial.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
And his court date was May eighth, seventeen oh one,
and he was found guilty and unfortunately for him, he
was hanged on May twenty third of that same year,
seventeen oh one. And again like one of the big
things here, there are some abhorrent things done to humans
(27:53):
and their bodies, you know, within in the past to
basically serve as warnings for other people to not do something.
And Captain William Kidd he was one of these people
because his body, after it was dead and hung, was
then put in a cage and hung up and it
was left or rot there for everyone to see. Everybody
(28:14):
who went down the Tims River, the one that goes
through London, so you know, don't be a pirate. Look
at that guy. He was a pirate.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
See what happens when you mess with the world's most
successful corporation. Right, yeah, So here's the thing. He's dead.
No one knows how much treasure he did or did
not have, and no one knows where he did or
(28:45):
did not put it.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
We did know that there was about ten thousand pounds
worth of treasure that was sent to pay for part
of the trial and a couple other things. Right, Yes,
there's something like that where it was not a lot
of money. I mean, ten thousand pounds at the time
is a lot of money, but it wasn't like the
full pirate bounty that you would think of.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Right. We do know that he did possess treasure. He
did deposit some of it on Gardeneer's Island, hoping to
use his knowledge of the treasure as a bargaining chip.
He also he also probably puts some in other places.
(29:30):
The thing is, no one knows exactly where that would be.
No one date has found this huge treasure trove. Before
he was hanged in seventeen oh one, he allegedly buried
some of his loot in the Caribbean. This was the
popular theory at the time, and despite the generations of
(29:53):
treasure hunters who have attempted to verify his claims more
or less in over the past three centuries. Nothing has
been recovered that would equal the rumors, because the rumors
are kind of like like Smoug's Horde of gold level
(30:18):
treasure trove, you know what I mean, not just a
box with some emeralds. This brings us background. So the
life and times of William Kiddon. He did get treasure,
we don't know how much. He put it in a
few places, and then he ducked and then he died,
and we don't know where those places are. So the
Astore connection. Could John Jacob Astor have somehow located a
(30:41):
piece of Kid's treasure? We will tell you the actual
answer after a word from our sponsors, and we're back.
There's more to this story than one might think it
first blush. It all traces back to a fellow named
(31:04):
Franklin Harvey Head.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yes, this gentleman, mister Head. He was a lawyer. He
was born in New York, and he worked in all over,
like really all over the place, Wisconsin, California, Utah, and
he ended up in Chicago. He was a bank director
and president of this place called the Chicago Malleable Iron Company,
another one of those awesome company titles or names that
(31:29):
is just if it's not there, we'll take it. But
in this case they added Malleable just to let you
know that iron was going to be shaped and changed,
which is pretty cool because again it's so funny. Sometimes
we forget that shaping iron into things and then cooling
it off was such a major advancement in human history.
(31:52):
There was a big deal and we need still they
needed a ton of iron to be produced.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
So this guy, Franklin Harbyhead, he he's the kind of
guy that has some wealth and he also likes to
show it off a little bit and also socialize with
other people that have some wealth.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Right, he's a social climber.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yes exactly. And you know one of the things that
he likes to do was write and publish these humorous
tales that he would use to try and impress his
wealthy friends.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yeah. Yeah, So the kind of people that he wants
to hang out with are not the novu riche there
is new money, got it. They're the kind of people
that he wants to hang out with are the equivalent
of American aristocrats. Their idea of success is to not
(32:49):
be associated with earning money, and indeed to look down
at times upon people who do work for a living.
Even if they're working for a living, is just them
owning a company, you know. Let's not forget this is
the country where someone once famously derided the Hilton family
by saying, oh, the Hiltons are they still letting rooms
(33:13):
to people? And for many of us listening, of course,
that is that is a surreal and cartoonish concept that
you would be condescending to someone for being good at something.
But this was the case. These were the sorts of
groups with whom had aspired to be associated. And you
(33:37):
can see why he is a person between two worlds
because he still has to work for a living. The shame, right,
the ignomy.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And just the last the thing that's most important in
order to feel as though he's included with those groups
the way been talking about here, it's very important to
note that the stories he was talking about would make
reference to historical figures that those people would recognize and know,
but they are made up.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Or or pander a bit to his friends, I would say,
more importantly, pander a bit to his friends by mentioning
their ancestry or the land that their families got back when,
you know, back when one of them had a job.
So the most important thing that you just point out there, Matt,
(34:26):
is that these stories which were whimsicals, satirical, they were
made up. They were made them upseas and they were
to quote Jonathan Strickland, aka the Quister, and they were
meant to they were meant to ingratiate him within these circles.
They were also not meant to be widely published outside,
(34:46):
because you know, the more people have access to a thing,
the less interesting or valuable it becomes. In this in again,
in this mindset. That's not how the world should work,
but that's how their mindset was functioning. We have some
examples in a work of his, a work of heads
called Shakespeare's Insomnia and the Causes Thereof. He claims that
(35:09):
newly discovered correspondence between Shakespeare, Sir Walter Raleigh, an actor
named William Kemp, and a money lender with a tremendously
offensive name, Mordecai Shylock all show that Shakespeare had difficulty
with money and marriage, and that this led to chronic insomnia,
and that his chronic insomnia manifests itself in many of
(35:31):
his works because various characters talk about sleeping or not sleeping.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah, they need to get some rest. Finally they can
be okay, yeah, fascinating and it's funny in a way.
I've not read the book, but just that concept alone
is humorous to me.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I get where he's going with it.
One of his books is the actual and only source,
only primary source for this story about Astor and William Kidd.
And here's how it happens. So Harvey Head is having
(36:10):
dinner with the daughter of a landscape architect named Frederick
Law Olmsted, and the subject of some property in Maine
comes up. And this is a place called Deer Island.
Olmsted owns land there and he spent maybe like a
summer there before he passed away. And based on this conversation,
(36:31):
Head decides he's going to have a little fun. Aha.
He thinks it's time for one of my classic moves,
one of my in joke books. I'm gonna absolutely kill
it with this crowd. What does he do?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Man with the olmsteads? Okay, well, and just another little
footnote here about Frederick Law Olmsted the architect who moved
there to Deer Mains Deer Island. It really was so
soon before his death. He ended up being put in
a I guess a facility because he was on his
way out almost immediately after moving there. Ended up being
(37:09):
a little a tragic little story there about him. You
can read more about in other places. But Head thought
it would be hilarious if he came up with this
backstory as to how one of Olmsted's I guess ancestors
helped John Astor, who was who's known widely known as
(37:33):
one of the most wealthy people in the world. All
these people know who at the Astor family is, and
John Astor came up with his idea of maybe here's
this secret, little this tale about how your ancestor helped
this guy become the wealthiest person in the world.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Right he writes a book called Studies in Early American History,
a notable lawsuit, and in this story. In this work
he which you can read online by the way, he
describes how Olmsted's descendants sued the Astor family to recover
William Kidd's pirate treasure. According to this account, one of
(38:13):
one of Astor's agents, or perhaps asked for himself. A
fur trapper discovered a buried treasure chest from the pirate
William Kidd on land that Olmsted's ancestors owned on Deer
Isle in Maine. This trapper stole the chest, but for
some reason did not know its actual value, so he
(38:34):
sold the chest to John Jacob Aster, and it became
the entire basis for the Astor family fortune in Head's
account generations. Later, the Olmsteds somehow discover this theft, and
they decided to sue the Astor clan for compensation, including
back rent on all his Manhattan real estate that you know,
(38:57):
because he had purchased it with his pirate treasure and
the stick there, you know, you see how it's almost
like an onion article. It just continues to escalate. But
the book itself is full of these nods and these winks,
and these tongues and these cheeks. It's full of tip
offs that it is not a work of fact, including
(39:19):
references to ancestors that don't exist, like Cod Mather Olmsted
or Oliver Cromwell Olmsted, neither of whom are real.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
But yeah, he's just throwing Olmsted on the bottom of
other important.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Figures right exactly, William Shakespeare, Olmsted, etc. So maybe the
biggest indicator that this story is completely fictional was that
there is no lawsuit. The book mentions a lawsuit and
bases itself on this lawsuit, but the lawsuit does not exist. Yeah,
it is not a thing. It's not real at.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Least, it's not written about in any papers and any
ledgers and anything that has been kept over all the years.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
In any legal documents proceedings. It's not cited as precedent
for anything. It doesn't exist.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Well, and in the account of Head, there's it's a
very specific claim of asking for five million dollars or
the equivalent, Yeah, five million dollars roughly, or just you know,
control over all of John Astor's property in Manhattan, which
everyone was easier, essentially what he will work with you. Yeah,
and it was like minus a couple cents for some
(40:25):
other thing. I mean, it's very very specific.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
So this is a little bit of conspiracy busting here.
This story was published in eighteen ninety two, and again
it was originally known to be fiction. The Olmsted's knew
it was fiction. The guy who wrote it, Head knew
it was fiction. He was just funny. But the problem
(40:48):
is that people at that time, in the late eighteen
hundreds early nineteen hundreds, were very, very similar to people
in the nineteen fifties or twenty nineteen, or we can
go ahead and reach to assume people in twenty fifty
They were desperate for news of the world's wealthy and
had a difficult time separating fact and fiction, differentiating between
(41:11):
you know, one news report on Facebook and in the
piece of fake news on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Right, Well, and let's talk about fact checking in the
eighteen hundreds, late eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Or how would hundred Yeah, how would you verify?
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Well, just how difficult it would be to have correspondence
between some like some law office somewhere else, let's say
in Maine, even if you're in New York or something,
just making that happen and trying to get any kind
of correspondence back and forth in a timely manner to
write or report on something. If let's say, in New
(41:44):
York City or Chicago, you came upon a copy of
this this work and you were unsure of it's you know,
it's veracity or it's the truth behind any of the stuff.
But it looks real and it's talking about people that
you you know. The name sell sound familiar. It looks
all familiar and who knows.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Hey, that reminds me. I can't remember if I told
you because we this this is the first time this
week we're hanging out. I went to Maine this weekend.
Oh did you mention? That?
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Was that the jumping off point to the other place
you went?
Speaker 1 (42:18):
No, No, it was actually I had to go to
Maine to make it back here.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Oh wow, okay, yeah it was.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
It was kind of sketchy. I was in Maine in
an undisclosed location on a ramp for two hours or so. Whoa, yeah,
because someone went wrong with the plane. That's how I
ended up in Maine. I don't know if it counts.
I guess I can't say I went to Maine because
(42:45):
I wasn't allowed outside of the plane. Yeah, but I'm
still gonna count it, and one day I'll one day
I'll walk in Maine as a freeman. But today, with
this weekend, was not that weekend. So yeah, if you're listening,
you're in Maine, tell me what it's like outside outside
of a vehicle. I want to check it out. I here.
(43:08):
Now is a good time to visit Maine as well,
because it's not you know, snowed in and Stephen Kingy.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
All right, well I'll definitely.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Do you want to go to Maine sometimes? Yeah, let's
go to Maine, Paul, Do you want to go to Maine?
Paul Hollywood. Okay, he's given us a nod.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
That was an enthusiastic nod. Well, yes, you're you're absolutely right.
It's easier now to differentiate between fact and fiction. But
then it took a lot of legwork. Right. The problems
starts a compound when a magazine called Liberty publishes an
account of this story as though it is fact. And
(43:47):
this is for comparison. This is the very similar to
the Internet rumors about celebrities that will uh that will
still make the rounds today, like what's that? What's that one?
Richard gear in the Gerbil? Remember that that old chestnut?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Okay, good, because we still want this to be a
family show. Yes, google it, but not on your word computer.
This was presented as though it were factual when it
was literally the equivalent of a mad magazine for insiders
or an onion newspaper. And then it gets even worse.
(44:29):
It gets codified into history nineteen twenty six, when a
historian in California presents this story as though it is true,
and everyone essentially falls for it. It's published. Not just
in papers in California do they say this historian figured
this out, Not just in papers in New York do
they say this historians figured it out? And not just
in Maine do they say this. They say it around
(44:51):
the world, and now people continue to believe it, and
you'll hear it floated as some sort of his historical conspiracy,
right that that not only is it true that at
the heart of every great fortune lay a great crime,
but that we know the great crime of John Jacob Astro,
(45:15):
which is stealing from pirates, and that's escape Architects.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Well, there's even a I think it's a History Channel show,
I don't even know if it's in production right now,
called Unearthed, uh huh, where at one point they, you know,
they craft this whole episode about how this guy finds
out that there's a secret number of correspondence and within
this book that was written by Head that basically translates
(45:44):
or represents the coordinates to this place on Deer Island
where the treasure still remains, and they apparently they go
throughout the entire episode just pretending like it's real until
they end up, you know, discussing at the end and
finding out, oh, this was all just in historical fiction account.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh yeah, America Onearthed, that's the name. Yeah, so a
bit about that genre of show, Matt, You and I
have had run ins with creators of shows like this,
not specifically America on Earthed. I don't want to dign them.
(46:22):
I haven't watched the show, but I am aware of
what you're talking about. Uh, what we have seen is
that the companies creating these shows have a propensity to
prize you know, what they see as as a clickbaity headline,
(46:43):
the broadcast equivalent thereof, over facts and investigations. So we've
been in situations where and not to brag about us
or anything or this show, but we've been in situations
where we have just walked away from offers to collaborate
these sorts of projects because we feel that they are
(47:04):
at the very least wildly misleading. Yes, I am I
being diplomatic enough. When they saw that you really are.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
I think. I think at the heart of it, you
would say that sensationalism is paramount because it will get
eyeballs on the screen on the correct channel configuration that
you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
I mean, I mean, I guess, but but that leaves
but that leaves people in such a lurch. You know,
when when you see this kind of wackado presentation of
things at the very end someone says, you know, it's
like at the very end of a pharmaceutical commercial, which
(47:49):
is a crazy thing anyway, or the very end of
a car commercial where the fine print person comes in
and they say, you know, the following account is based
on a satirical fictional work published in the late at
hundreds by Franklin Head, which has little or nothing to
do with the facts of the matter. It's so great,
you know what I mean, that's it and I get
it that it's entertainment, but it should not be entertainment
(48:11):
disguised as you know, disguised as some sort of factual investigation.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
I always think about the Mermaids show.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Yeah, have we mentioned that on Era? We have, right,
we did.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
I think we did an podcast episode on it, but
we definitely did a video on it.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Yeah. So, years and years back, Matt, you and I
were asked to participate in something between participating something that
was again wildly misleading and not a not a small
(48:47):
bit exploitative. Someone had put out this documentary documentary that
was purporting to be a documentary about the discovery of
mermaids roommates have finally been discovered. They were real. Here
they are, And we were asked to I think we
talked about this on our Facebook group earlier. Here's where
(49:09):
it gets crazy. As our Facebook group, we were asked
to dive into, dive into this documentary and present our
take on it as though it were true. We refused.
This was also, I think one of the only times
anyone had ever specifically asked us to do something.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Yeah right, And it's also why Discovery sold the whole
company because they were like Ben, Matt, Nope.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Won't play ball, right, We were the mice that right
in the elephant. That's that's also myth elephants don't care.
Frankly I wrote that yet. So, if anything, this is
a cautionary tale.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
It is.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Virtually certain that more myths like this propagate, mass grading
this fact in your day to day experiences. For your
entire life, you know what I mean? There are tons
of things that the equivalent of three kids in a
trench coat pretending to be an adult, which I'm just
(50:17):
that's just a great image. That's why I'm putting that
in there. So the good news is that armed with
this information, more and more people are not wasting time
trying to trying to find some kind of William Kidd
treasure in Maine instead, because even in that story, that's
(50:38):
a weird thing about Dear Island. Even in that story
the treasure is taken. But more and more people are
searching for kids treasure in other places that are based
on their understanding as actual voyages, and oddly enough, more
and more people claim to find this treasure with each
passing decade. There's a recent example which makes a lot
(50:59):
more so, Vents from Madagascar in twenty fifteen, and the
title of it get this, You're gonna love this.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
How many times are we going to find Captain Kid's treasure?
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Right? So, the first line is from New Jersey to Vietnam.
There's barely a swatch of the world left untouched by
the swashbuckling pirate. Captain Kid's evasive legacy. In twenty fifteen,
an explorer named Barry Clifford says he's discovered a sunken
treasure at the bottom of the Indian Ocean off the
coast of Madagascar. He found a one hundred pound silver
(51:35):
bar with strange markings on it, and he said, this
is a remnant of the pirate's wrecked ship, because he
did wreck as ship in Madagascar. So the thing is
that there are so many shipwrecks throughout these oceans of hours.
Finding something is one thing, but then proving its providence
(51:56):
is another, and it's more difficult, perhaps than you might think.
So Kid's treasure may have been discovered. It leads us
to a larger question, though, do you think that there
is still buried treasure out there that remains undiscovered? Where
could it be located? And I know this episode may
(52:16):
have been a bit of a bummer because we did
bust a conspiracy kind of, but this leads us to
I would argue more important conspiracy for our day and age.
Do you think that someone could pull off something like
Franklin Head did.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
Ooh and like make up a story and then the
modern day make everyone think it's real. Yeah, ah, yeah,
for sure. Think about some of the viral videos that
have occurred where it's one of these small groups of
video audio video professionals that are making fake things about
a bear attack or like an almost bear attack, or
(52:58):
I'm trying to think of some of the exact examples,
and if you know some of these or give us
a call. But there's somewhere it's been absolutely proven to
be false. Oh the one there was like Justin Bieber
eating a burrito like from the middle or something like that,
where it became a national news story in all of
these places, but it was just these guys. Somebody dressed
up like Justin Bieber and ate a burrito from the
(53:19):
center and it became a thing. I think it's probably
pretty easy now because of the rapid rate that everyone
wants to pick up a story and you kind of
have to in order to be relevant. You've got to
get it in your feed somehow. So I think it's
I bet it's easier. Now.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
That's interesting. We should do an episode on deep fakes
in general, right, yeah, yeah, So let us know what
your examples are, or if you were to perpetuate a
myth of this nature, what would it be and why
There's one example that someone recently posted on Here's Where
It Gets Crazy that I would like to read because
(53:58):
it just sounds like a great time. You want to
hear it?
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yes? Please?
Speaker 1 (54:04):
This comes from Wayward Sun, who said, in the latest
episode you fellas pose the question what mystery would you
like to leave the world trolling? Of course, I want
to rob a house, he says. Stay with me. I
want to steal someone's entire house. Now, this would take
a lot of resources, but the mechanics are pretty straightforward.
It would have to be a rural area where there
(54:25):
are less neighbors and they are farther between. Wait for
some poor, unsuspected family to go on a long vacation,
then hire a house moving company. Of course, there would
have to be planning a fluid capital to asswash the
house movers from spilling the beans. Then you simply jack
the house up and off we go with everything inside.
The family comes home to an empty space, disbelief and
hilarity ensue, and then we go down in historical anonymity
(54:49):
as the unknown perpetrators of the greatest unsolved mystery of
all times. Step aside, go Beckley Teppe.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Wow, I want to say I'm on board. You're still
stealing a house, even even jokingly.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
There, I'm on board. I'm on board if through some
ridiculous series of circumstances they get their house back. Yes,
so I think it's more of a troll move for
the house to show to show up later all their stuff.
Speaker 2 (55:17):
I think it's way funnier if it's moved only slightly.
Maybe it's only a couple of feet over, like beyond
a gate or something. Now it's behind the gate and
it used to be on the other side of the gate.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Yeah. Yeah, David Kope says, break into a house and
move everything over two to three inches.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Uh. And then you know, also I had this idea too,
Uh why not don't why not replace the house, don't
just steal it, replace it with a nicer house.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
But all the stuff is still in All.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
The stuff is still in the house, all the same stuff.
And then have one empty room. Yeah that doesn't exist
in the in the old house. And in there leave
leave the room absolutely blank except for a Manila envelope
on the floor, and it has a VHS tape of
the bearn steam Bears. Right.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
But see, you're just describing the Netflix revival of Queer Eye.
Really just put a whole new house there.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
What happens? I've watched it.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
All your facial care products are replaced. I don't know
how it works. My wife makes me watch a lot
of TV.
Speaker 1 (56:28):
I see, I see.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
Well.
Speaker 1 (56:29):
I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying some of it.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
I really am.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't
wait to hear your thoughts. We try to be easy
to find online. Find it to the handle Conspiracy Stuff
where we exist on Facebook X and YouTube, on Instagram
and TikTok. We're conspiracy Stuff.
Speaker 2 (56:47):
Show call our number. It's one eight three three st
d w y t K.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
Leave a voicemail and if you have more to say,
we can't wait to hear from you at our good
old fashioned email address where we are conspiracy at iHeartRadio
dot com.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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