September 12, 2023 • 63 mins
It's a common trope in film and TV -- a police department at their wits' end calls in a favor and makes contact with a genuine psychic, someone in tune with the greater mysteries of life, death and the universe. In works of fiction these individuals often do possess some spark of extraordinary ability, but what about in real life? Join the guys as they delve into the world of true crime and allegations of ESP to discover whether any real-life psychics have solved actual crimes.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to tonight's classic episode, and congratulations to any of
our fellow conspiracy realist who exercised their esp to predict
what episode was coming next. You know who you are,
you extra sexy people. Perhaps you can also help law
enforcement solve the crime.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, I'm sorry, I was being silly. You are all
very good looking, but yeah, it's true. Law enforcement in
the past surprisingly has employed folks claiming to have the
powers to see other things that are outside of their
physical purview. We also know about situations where folks have
been trained by the government to use this stuff for spying.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
It's pretty cool. Yeah. I remember we made this episode
in June of twenty eighteen, and we had just before
this a couple of months put out Atlanta Monster and
Ben the show talked to you specifically about psychics and
and solving crimes, because in the Atlanta missing and murdered case,
(01:04):
they brought on psychics, or rather psychics attempted to assist
in locating several people, right, people.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Who self identify as psychics. Maybe let's put it that way.
So this is a blast from the past or a
blast from the future, or you know, all things exist
at one point and linear time is a myth. Whatever.
We want to hear your thoughts. Have any psychics solved crime?
(01:32):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies? History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt
nol Is on Adventures Today.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yes they call me Ben, but most importantly you are you.
You are here that makes this stuff they don't want
you to know. We just got the green light from
our super producer, Paul mission controlled decandt.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
It is bright today too, Paul, cheez it is.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
It must be one of those new LED bulbs.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
I think that's what it is.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
But you know, I seem to recall that one of
us anticipated this, Matt, maybe even predicted it.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Oh, yes, it was it you.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Uh, it might have been. But you and I have
made many predictions on the show right and earlier. You
predicted that today's episode would be a success.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Yes, And I am not vague, not vague.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Not vague at all. Now I have a strange inkling
that someone who is listening to the show today is
either near or not near a body of water. Well
they're either I either their their name has the letter
E in it, or they know someone who does. Oh
(03:06):
my gosh, I know spooky right.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Oh wait, I'm sensing something all right, there's a dog barking.
I can hear the yep.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yep somewhere somewhere.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
It's a It sounds like a small breed. Uh. Oh,
just be careful if you can hear that dog.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I'm seeing a plane or some sort of a sky.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, like a pressurized air. Yeah. I can feel the
pressure of the air pressure.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I think it either was a Tuesday, or will be
in the future, or may even be right now. So
we were starting this off on a little bit of
a let's say, a little bit of a glib note
to you.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Just cast a net, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
And today, folks, we are tackling something many of you
have asked us about via email, YouTube comments back in
the day, and of course through social media, and that
is the nature of a psychic detective. Ultimately, the question
is have psychics actually solved crimes?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
And we've come across several of these types of psychics, right, yeah,
that have looked into crimes, Psychics that have been involved
with the law in some way or another been in
court in fact, but what we've never delved deeply into
the United States history of psychics, well and outside of
the United States as well.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
And so to be absolutely clear, this is a true
crime episode.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Oh yes, and that's really hot right now. We just
kind of.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Roll with it as an old friend again mastermind of
Atlanta Monster.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Oh yes, everything I did everything on that show. Yes, yes,
it's not true. That's think you should.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
See, Matt. You are so humble and modest. That was
shaking his head in a what are you doing to
me ben sort of fashion.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yes, let's talk about these old United States, the red, white,
and blue. Yeah, we got a bit of a problem
when it comes to people doing things that are against
the law.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Absolutely, absolutely, the US inarguably has a problem with crime,
and on an even more disturbing level, not only do
we have a problem with crime, but we have a
tremendous problem with solving crime. Only about half of the
violent crimes that take place in the US and only
(05:40):
about a third of property crimes that occur in the
US each year are even reported to police. So that's
not a dnion law enforcement. They can't do anything if
they don't know what's happening.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah, that is an intense statistic, just knowing that there's
that much crime occurring in this huge country that the
police don't even know about.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Right wow.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And there can be any number of reasons that people
would not report a crime. Maybe they don't want to
be implicated, or they have some some sort of sketchiness
in their past, right.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Well yeah, or if you take it to recent issues,
perhaps they might have a problem with immigration if they
were to report a crime. And that's that's a very
intense issue. If you know something bad has happened to you,
but if you do report it, you're probably gone from
this country, right.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
And there are many reasons that are similar to this,
and often very tragic. For instance, in cases of domestic
violence or something something where someone in your family or
even a loved one or a spouse or a significant
other has done something violent to you or someone you know,
(06:57):
but you don't want them to go to jail. These
are only some of the causes for a lack of
reporting crime. But let's look at the crimes that are reported.
Most of the crimes that are reported in the US
do not result in the arrest, charging, and prosecution of
a suspect. And that's according to government stats.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Right, according to the Bureau of Justice statistics in twenty fifteen,
Now that's just the most recent year that we had
statistics for. In twenty fifteen, forty seven percent of the
violent crimes and thirty five percent of the property crimes
tracked by that group were reported to police. So that
is well less than half, especially violent crimes thirty five percent.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Right, This is simply the reality of the situation. It
does not matter if you are an ardent supporter of
law enforcement in the US or in your home country,
whatever your neck of the global woods may be. And
it does not matter if you are a committed anarchist
who believes that we should just burn this house of
(08:02):
cards down. As experts work around the clock, at least
in theory, to solve these various crimes and these unexplained disappearances,
they use every possible resource legally available to close the case, or,
in examples that we've seen in fiction such as the wire,
(08:23):
sometimes illegal methods.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, exactly, well, because there are a lot of problems
that they run into when you're dealing with a disappearance.
There may be neighbors that did actually see something that
you could have a viable witness that don't want to
speak to the police for other various reasons, right, I mean,
we can go into all those, but let's just spend
a moment on the disappearances themselves. There are as many
(08:46):
as one hundred thousand active missing persons cases in the
United States at any given time. Yes, one hundred thousand.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
At any given moment. It does not matter if you
are listening to this podcast in twenty nineteen, twenty forty three,
any given moment since we started counting. Of these six
hundred ninety two thousand, nine hundred and forty four people
reported missing in twenty ten, for instance, five hundred thirty
(09:15):
one thousand, nine hundred and twenty eight were under the
age of eighteen. These are kids too.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Oh my god, that is an awful statistic.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
And we have more information regarding the statistic.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah? According to the National Crime Information Center, that's the NCIC,
three hundred and fifty five thousand, two hundred and forty
three women were reported missing in twenty ten compared to
three hundred and thirty seven thousand, six hundred and sixty men,
So not that much of a difference. But more women
(09:49):
going missing here in twenty ten.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And either way, even if we put gender divisions or
how people identify aside, we're still looking at hundreds of
thousands of people. And when we talk about missing persons,
we need to immediately bust some myths, some missing person myths.
It was oddly hard to say, Matt. First things, First,
(10:14):
you do not have to wait twenty four hours to
report a missing person. That is one of the most
dangerous misconceptions.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
And second, if you are an adult can choose to
go missing. You can report somebody who doesn't want to
be found, but it's within their legal right in most
cases in general, to ghosts if they wish. Wow, unless
you know doing that also violates a law such as
(10:45):
jumping bail.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Oh sure, And not to mention maybe the bill collectors right,
because you're probably paying somebody something on a monthly basis.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Sure, statistically that's true. And again, this is just the US,
so let us know how laws work in your country.
It may affect your experience with this topic we're exploring today.
In the United States, however, many of the people who
are reported missing are found within a few days. Unfortunately,
many other people will either not be found alive or
(11:16):
in some cases, not be found at all.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
And there really is a ticking clock situation here when
someone goes missing, every passing moment lessons that likelihood of
their safe recovery. You've heard that forty eight hours, that
two days that we just mentioned before is the most
crucial time to find a missing person, and it really is.
And as there are a lot of factors there too.
(11:41):
It has to do with police being able to put
their resources into a case. Sure, I mean, you know,
what could happen to you within forty eight hours. There's
just all kinds of factors there.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Racism and prejudice play an enormous role in this, either
systemic on the institutional level, wherefore, some reason of racism
or prejudice, a police precinct is not given the resources
it needs to address crime or individual matters of prejudice
where people say, oh, you know, people like that fall
(12:12):
off the grid all the time. He's probably just on
heroin or coeludes or something, and he'll come to eventually,
they'll show up.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, that's a real factor. And just that the fact
that there are all these people going missing every year
moment to moment, then all the other violent crimes, all
of the nonviolent crimes that have to be investigated, and
you think about the resource problem and it just becomes overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And then let's also factor in something that will become
very very important to today's episode. Media coverage.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Oh this is huge.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, So if a prominent person goes missing, say a
someone who is the child of a very important politician
or a very wealthy family, or if a celebrity goes
missing or something public figure, then the media will latch on.
And this means that a national spotlight is suddenly put
(13:06):
on the police department.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
It's like the Patty Hurst case.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Right, Yeah, that's a great example. It's no surprise then
that in some cases, perhaps more cases than you might assume,
police have employed unorthodox methods in their search for missing
persons or their quest to solve a crime. Here are
the facts, friends, neighbors. You have probably heard apocryphal tales
(13:32):
of a police department at its wits end finally resorting
to something that sounds like it's straight out of a
fantasy novel or an episode of the Twilight Zone, the
original series The Goodwin And that's an official law enforcement
organization actually contacting self proclaimed psychics for assistance with a case.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yes, this is a very real thing, and it comes
about in roughly two ways. The first, this one is
the psychic. This is the majority of the cases, by
the way that you hear about this, the psychic themselves
like contacts the police and says, hey, I heard about
this thing in the news. I need to tell you,
I need to talk to you about what I think
(14:14):
I've found or let me help you at least right right.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And this is huge. So when a case receives especially
if it receives national attention from a syndicated news source,
thousands of calls can roll into the precinct. And of
those thousands of calls, you'd be surprised how many of
them are calls from people claiming that through some extrasensory ability,
(14:43):
right through some sort of extrasensory perception.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Or dream or a vision or something, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Exactly, a dream or a vision, they have received something
that could help with the case. And many of the
other calls are going to be people who are saying
reporting a suspicious person like in America's Most Wanted, they
say this person is suicide. Build here's a sketch, or
here's a photo, and then you know they're inundated with
(15:10):
calls because someone you know in like ham Lake, Minnesota
or something, which is the real place, thought that they
saw a roughly six foot one guy with a beard
and a hoodie and that matched the description.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Right, yep.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
But we're focusing on the psychics, and the majority of cases,
as you said, Matt, are going to be someone who
believes they have psychic abilities contacting the investigating authorities with
the best of intentions.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah, I can help you. Yeah, I believe that I
found this and I want to tell you about.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And we want to say this at the front. Most
of these calls are from people who genuinely believe they're
doing the right thing. Are their hoaxes, Yes, of course, sure.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Are there charlatans, absolutely, but not all of these people
are in any way.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Right, at least not purposely so.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And the second method, and this is far less frequent
and far more interesting, would be when members of law
enforcement may reach out unofficially to a psychic. This happens
way less often the works of fiction, which have you believe,
and often when it does happen, there's a very strange,
(16:33):
convoluted series of events that occurs. We will see maybe
family members of the missing person themselves reach out to
a psychic and then they act as the middle ground, right,
the connecting tissue between law enforcement and the psychic. Or
we may see a member of law enforcement on their
(16:55):
own reach out. Yes, so not like an official letter
from the police chief saying, Madam Bell, please help us
find the notorious Uh uh tempany drum Thief.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, the timpany drum Thief was a notorious of it
for syth Central High School. I remember him.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
We were originally when we started this podcast years and
years ago, we were originally just going to make it
about that case.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah, I know that was gonna be the whole thing.
It was going to be called Drum Disappeared.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, and uh could you could you say the title again?
And Paul, could you could you throw in that theme
music we we used for our original demo, which I
think is just a timpany drum.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
This week on Drum Disappeared?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Uh, what a surefire hit, right, You.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Know, I feel like we really missed the boat there.
We need to we need to keep working on that show.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
We missed the beatd but no true story. These things happen.
Maybe not as much as we would like to believe,
but it's startling that they happen at all. And there
are multiple examples of this in the real world. So
let's go with the category that you proposed first, Matt,
(18:11):
which is an example of psychics contacting the police.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Absolutely, and we'll do that right after a word from
our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Let's set the scene. It's the first of May two
thousand and one, and a Washington DC intern named Chandra
Levy goes missing psychics from around the world, not just
in the United States hall and they provide tips from
realizations they've seen, revelations they've experienced, dreams or visions that
(18:48):
they have had, and they many of them say that
Levy is dead, that one way or another, she has died.
And many of their tips were suggestions or where to
search for her body. Some of these were vague and
some of them were a little more specific. And that's
(19:09):
interesting because typically what we find in these cases is
that psychic detectives are generally going to be kind of
vague because they're working off what they feel are intuitive,
intuitive sensations. Yeah, so one prediction was that her body
(19:32):
would be found in the basement of a Smithsonian storage
building kind of specific.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Yeah, really specific. Then another one would be just somewhere
in the Potomac.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
River, somewhere in the Nevada Desert.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
And you know, when you get to an entire river
or an entire desert, it's not really a prediction, it's
you know, like you said, a feeling that they may
have had or a vision. It's just hard to narrow
any of that down. And each of each of these
tips really didn't lead anywhere for the investigators.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Right, they were all dead ends. And of course the
people who are making these predictions aren't saying, you know,
they're not holding the information hostage. It's very important. They're
not saying they're buried somewhere in the Nevada Desert, I
know where, buy my book, or pay me the ransom
(20:24):
fee if there is one, or something like that. It's
not financially related in that way. A little more than
a year after her disappearance, Levy's body was discovered by
a man walking his dog in a remote section of
not the Smithsonian, not the Potomac, not the Nevada Desert, but.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
In Rock Creek Park, which is in northwest DC.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So out of all of the people from around the
world who called in. They were all wrong so far
as we know, according to the police department, according to
the media sources we could find, and we have other examples.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yes, Elizabeth Smart is another person who disappeared, this time
in June of two thousand and two, and in this case,
police received about nine thousand tips from psychics, and the
Salt Lake City Police Chief, Lieutenant Chris Burbank, he said
that responding to all of these, you know, all this advice,
(21:22):
it's unsolicited advice, it's just sent to them. It ate
up so many hours of police work. And the family
of Elizabeth Smart maintains that they received zero significant assistance
from psychics, which is sad that there are that many
people trying to help but no dice.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And there's a strange thing that occurs here too, because
we could say, maybe the police department does not want
to officially acknowledge that their lead came from some inexplicable phenomenon, right,
But it's tougher to say that the family would all
also participate in some kind of cover up. Because they
(22:02):
have no official institution binding them, they are free to
say what they wish. So in both of those cases,
it appears that again officially, none of these people were
able to help in a meaningful way. And furthermore, it
appears they were harming the investigation with the best of intentions,
(22:23):
because they were eating up hours that police could have
spent chasing other leads. And one of the things we
have to realize is in these examples and the other
examples we're exploring, it's not as if the police got
a phone call from a psychic and said, Okay, whoop
do you do. I'll get right on that. Let me
(22:46):
dial you up by a crystal from a crystal ball.
Even if they did think it was a load of bunk,
they at least compiled it, you know, gave it, gave
it consideration, probably not as a credible but they want
to have a record because if you if, for instance,
if of those nine thousand calls in a case like this,
(23:10):
even fifteen hundred or a thousand of them said hey,
there's this abandoned drug store on some city street fourth
and eighth, then you can you can be damn well
sure they're going to send somebody to fourth and eighth, absolutely,
just because the same place is being reported so often.
We also found that some psychics attain a degree of
(23:33):
fame or maybe notoriety is a better word, by repeatedly
attempting to assist law enforcement or appearing to assist law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yes. One of the most famous examples of this kind
of thing is the late Sylvia Celeste Brown. She was
once known as America's most controversial psychic, which is you know,
a moniker that makes sense?
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah, that came from from a writer working with the Guardian,
so that was a British papers perspective.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Yes, she had all kinds of television appearances.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah, she was on Larry King Live, she was on
Montel Williams. She had been a repeat guest on Coast
to Coast AM, which is has always been one of
my favorite am radio shows. Additionally, yes, we must say
fairly well to Art Bell, who recently passed away and
was a longtime host of Coast to Coast AM. You
(24:31):
are missed well. I brought the mood down there. But
she appeared on a lot of shows.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yes, she did. Let's go through some of the cases
that she, let's say, worked on. Yeah. In nineteen ninety
nine she said that the six year old opal Joe Jennings,
who had disappeared a month earlier had been forced into
slavery in Japan, and later that year a local man
was convicted of kidnapping and murdering Jennings in that's not
(25:02):
at all what she had alluded to. And then in
two thousand and three, in autopsy of jennings remains, found
that she had died within hours of her abduction.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
So no Japan, no human trafficking, a local criminal and
she died within hours.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
In two thousand and two, Brown claimed to have realizations
psychic realizations that is, about the fate of someone named
Holly Crusen, who disappeared in nineteen ninety five. Krusin Brown
claimed was working as an exotic dancer at a Hollywood nightclub. However,
in two thousand and six, dental records were used to
(25:44):
identify a body found in nineteen ninety six in San
Diego as that of Holly Crusin. So, in one case,
she claims that someone is alive and they are enslaved
in a foreign country. They are dead, and they died
relatively close to where they were kidnapped. In the other case,
(26:05):
she claims that someone is alive when they've been dead
for quite a while.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
So yeah, and there's more, and there is more. In
the year two thousand, a woman named Linda McClelland disappeared,
and then in two years later, in two thousand and two,
Brown claimed that she had been taken by a man
with the initials MJ and was alive somewhere in Orlando, Florida,
and she was going to be found soon, That's what
(26:34):
she said. And then in two thousand and three, McClellan's son,
David Rapaski, who had been present at Brown's reading, was
convicted of murdering McClellan, and her remains were found just
really close to her home in Pennsylvania. Again just so
far off the mark here.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Right, and this is two thousand and two, right, so
it's the same year as the cruising example. There was
another person who disappeared in two thousand. That was a
nineteen year old named Ryan Catcher, and Brown in two
thousand and four claimed that Cattra had been murdered and
his body would be found in a metal shaft in
(27:14):
two thousand and six. Two years later, his body was
found in his truck at the bottom of a pond,
and the autopsy indicated he had died due to drowning.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Now that one is that is the closest that I
think she came right.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
And it may sound as if we are cherry picking
to find unsuccessful cases. That's something that a lot of
supporters of this practice will will argue, right, yes, we
are pulling these from Admittedly a skeptical source called The
Skeptical Enquirer, so they mapped several studies of her work
(27:56):
over a couple of years. In twenty ten, they published
a three years study that was written by Ryan Schaeffer
and Agatha Jadwiscous that examined Brown's predictions about missing persons
and murder cases. This is over the span of three years.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Despite Brown's repeated claims to be more than eighty five
percent correct, this study reported that quote Brown has not
even been mostly correct in a single case. They compared
the psychics televised statements about one hundred and fifteen cases
with newspaper reports and said that in the twenty five
cases where the actual outcome was known, wherein experts found
(28:38):
the body or found the person, or they found the
method of death, et cetera, that in those twenty five cases,
Brown was completely wrong in every single one, and in
the rest, they said, where the final outcome was unknown,
They couldn't substantiate their her case. They couldn't say whether
she was right or wrong because not enough information right
(28:59):
other than her belief that, you know, she was legitimately
receiving signals from some other source. And then they did
a follow up study in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yes, and this one it looked at some of the
more recent predictions by Brown, as well as the predictions
that had earlier been classified as undetermined because there were
you know, there wasn't enough information, because a lot of
those were now largely resolved. And according to Schaeffer, Brown
was mostly or completely wrong in thirty three cases and
(29:30):
mostly accurate in none.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
And to this day, as supporters of Brown will will
typically say that this record looks bad because people were
again only picking out unsuccessful cases. The folks at the
skeptical inquirer will argue that they gave a comprehensive look
at all possible instances where Brown would have been correct.
(29:58):
People also say, well, maybe the police department is not
telling the whole truth, which unfortunately is a not uncommon
occurrence in the US nowadays and in the past. Let's
look at an example of police contacting a psychic of
the much less common Dare I say, much more fascinating
(30:22):
category that we mentioned.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Yeah, and I think this category is born from desperation
from a police department or law enforcement agency, at least
it is in this first example. So, in nineteen eighty,
the Atlanta Police Department contacted a self proclaimed psychic named
Dorothy Allison, and they were contacting her to assist with
(30:43):
finding a serial killer that they could not locate. And
this is according to the Washington Post from nineteen eighty.
So at the time, Dorothy was working on or she
had just written this book, and she was on a
book tour. It was called a Psychic Story. And she
had recently gone on what is it the Phil Donahue Show,
(31:04):
which was huge at the time, one of those talk shows.
And after this appearance, apparently according to this article and
according to City Hall of Atlanta, the citizens, numerous citizens
were just flooding their phone networks with people saying, you
need to talk to Dorothy Allison. She's going to help
(31:24):
you out. So this is in the midst of the
Atlanta child murders which occurred from nineteen seventy nine to
eighty one, and at this point within the Atlanta child murders,
where there were thirty plus victims of mostly children, there
were already ten young black children who had disappeared and
then been found murdered, and then there were four others
(31:45):
who were actively missing.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Several other ones hadn't been reported.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yet exactly, and there were no major suspects in the
case at this moment. So the department itself, the police department,
along with the task force that they created and the
FBI are just desperate to get any lead, anything at all.
So they called her. And according to Dorothy Allison, she
had worked with police in more than a hundred cases,
including the Patty Hurst case, the kidnapping, as well as
(32:12):
the John Gaysey murders the John Wayne Gacy murders. She
also stated within this article after speaking to people there,
that she had helped find more than fifty missing persons
through her visions. So she's claiming that over fifty people
have been found by her. Here's the tough thing. Even
(32:33):
the mothers of some of these children who were slain,
the victims, they were really hopeful that Dorothy might actually
come in and find something that just the police investigations.
The more mundane ways of finding somebody. It wasn't working.
They were hopeful that Dorothy could. There's a quote here
from Willie May Mathis, who was the mother of one
(32:55):
of the victims, Jeffrey Mathis, and she said, I believe
in Dorothy Allison. She is not raising false hopes, but
I pray she'll tell me my child is still alive.
And that kind of the sense that you give a victim,
a victim's family member when you have a psychic coming
in that there's hope or something at the end of
the tunnel. It's so positive and negative at the same time,
(33:20):
which is fascinating to me.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
It's powerful. I could tell that it really got to
you as well in the course of your research.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
It moved you, well, it did, because I want to
believe that Dorothy was trying to help out, but I
know she's also trying to sell her book. She's actively
trying to sell her book, and this is a huge
national case, and she's putting herself in front of the
camera when she's doing this investigation. She's being driven around
in a limousine right with three days yes, and taking
(33:50):
what they referred to after the fact, a wild goose Chase.
She named over thirty names of who it possibly could
be forty two I think, yeah, it was closer to
forty two. Williams was not in there, although I believe
she claims that Williams was in there. Wayne Williams is
the name of the person eventually who's convicted of these crimes.
(34:12):
In the end, it seems like she didn't lead them anywhere.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
And we were looking because I was helping with a
little bit of the research for the Monster Show, and
one of the things we found was that many people
associated with law enforcement APD at the time did not
buy this lady's story.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Yeah, they didn't want it to even happen, because her
story is that she helped all these people. Was an
investigator from New Jersey that would be her interpreter for
other police departments, because she would give these vague descriptions
and then this interpreter would go through and say, well,
you know, this is what she.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Really means, right, And there's something oracular about that because
it calls to mind, you know, the ways that profits
or sears of old would have a spiritual revelation, say
at Delphi or something, and then someone else would interpret
that for the common people. Yeah, the non enlightened amongst us.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yeah, you're writing that line between if something like this
was real, perhaps you would need something like that, but
then also if it's not real, it's a helpful tool
to kind of obfuscate what's going on.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
So now the question that I can predict is on
everyone's mind, is ah, Matt Ben Paul mission controlled decandt
are you all really telling us that this is an
enormous con job? Is the stuff they don't want you
(35:49):
to know in this episode, the fact that some psychics
don't want you to know they actually don't have powers.
Are you going to spend this entire time pooh poohing
the hope that families have? Not quite? Not quite? And
it's surprised. Frankly, it surprised both of us to find this.
And they all, oddly enough come from Australia. What yes, yes, down,
(36:14):
Nda down, Anda, Am I saying that correctly? Melbourne?
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's right, Melbourne, Melbourne.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Oh boy, we're gonna get a letter about that. So yes.
In two thousand and one, the body of Thomas Braun
b r a u N was located by a Perth
based clairvoyant named Leanna Adams in Western Australia. The body
(36:44):
was in Western Australia. Rather, Braun's family had been told
to contact Adams. They didn't come out, they didn't come
up with this idea of whole cloth. Adams went to
Alice Springs in the Northern Territory of Australia and apparently
she took the family members directly to Thomas Braun's remains
(37:04):
and it was in a ridge that was about twenty
kilometers west of town. They couldn't immediately identify the body,
but Adams, again, according to the story, said note that
is him, and police later confirmed the remains to be
his through DNA testing. That's astonishing, it's just the surface
(37:26):
of that is true. Right, And again this psychic was
based in Perth. And that's not the only case that
comes to us from Australia. We'll have a couple more
for you. Stay tuned after the break. So here's another one.
(37:46):
If we jump around in time a little bit. This
one messes, I think with geography the most. In Sydney, Australia,
in nineteen ninety six, the fiance of a missing person
named Paula Brown approached a psychic named Philippe Durant to
(38:06):
ask for help.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
I think it's Philip Durrant. Philip, I just so you
understand how it's spelled, Philip Durant.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yesh So Durrant told the police the location of Paula
Brown's body. Durrant himself did not physically go and find
the body. It was spotted within two miles of where
he predicted it would be found by a lorry driver
who came across the remains, and this prompted a statement
(38:40):
that changed the game for people who are advocates of
psychic detective work. It was this.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Even though the body was discovered purely by chance, the
speculation by a clairvoyant appears to have been uncannily accurate.
Which is a quote from ast spokesperson from the police
department there, and it's I mean, it's true. If you
just pointed on a map somewhere and said, I think
that's where it is, and then within two kilometers that's
where the person is, that's at least the chances are
(39:09):
very slim for that.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I mean, some people would argue they're not as slim
as we would think, but I feel, at the very
least it's a stunning coincidence that's true, very least.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
It is going to happen every once in a while,
right sure, yeah, just by odds, but it feels extra special.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
There was another let's call it a near miss. This
is a weird one and it's much more recent. In
August of twenty ten, an Aboriginal elder named Cheryl Carol
Loggerway claimed that she had seen the location of a
missing child, a child named Keisha Abraham's, in a dream.
(39:49):
That the location of this body came to her in
a dream. Police had been investigating the disappearance, and Carol
Loggerway took them, took law enforcement to a look where
they did in fact find a dead body.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
However, it was a body of an adult female, not
of the child, fortunately unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Right, So it was another maybe we could call it
a near miss.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
But in that situation, what happened there? Could she sense
the dead body somehow? I mean that again is astonishing
to me?
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Right, And if someone is being skeptical, they might say, well,
did she know of the dead body? And feel like
this was the safest way to reveal it? Maybe you
know there are layers to that tail. Oh yeah, So
the question then becomes has any psychic actually solved a case.
Here's where it gets crazy. No, well, officially no, right,
(40:54):
The official answer is almost always going to be heck no,
even in cases where individuals, family members, relatives, or law
enforcement professionals believe psychics did provide some sort of assistance.
In fact, multiple law enforcement agencies have official statements claiming
they have never and are not currently and will not
(41:16):
in the future, treat psychic advice as quote credible information.
Not even Australia, they say they do not officially accept
assistance from psychics in most cases, don't call us, We'll
call you, for lack of a better phrase. However, in
Western Australia, the Western Australia Police say that while they
will not seek out info from psychics, they will accept
(41:38):
info if it is offered.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the way to handle it.
On the off chance that somebody gets lucky or actually
does have some kind of powers and know something, we'll
take it. But for now we're going to focus on
police work.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Let's look at some other countries. New Zealand. New Zealand
and the United Kingdom also do not officially interact with
psychic or the phrase they use spiritual based information, spiritually
derived information. Although again there's another interesting twist.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Yeah, the United Kingdom's Metropolitan Police was a bit shady
about the way they handle this thing. They're saying, quote,
we do not identify people we may or may not
speak with in connection with inquiries. We are not prepared
to discuss this further. Just gotta leave that door open.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
That is so sketchy. I wouldn't say it's a bit shady.
We do not identify people we may or may not
speak with in connection with inquiries. We're not prepared to
discuss this further. It sounds like they're not specifically referring
to the question at all to psychic detectives any that
(42:50):
could be anything, as that's a blanket statement that also covers,
for instance, seis or other inmates or something.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
And you know, for some reason in that phrase, that
whole phrase feels very British to me.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Right, It reminds me of CIA speak. Yeah, it's spook speak.
But the that's the thing they're not saying yes or no.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Dude, they're hiding. What they're doing with that is they're
hiding their interaction with some master AI that they're working
with to solve crimes. That's what they're.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Doing, right. This is this similar to that episode where
we asked if technology would lead us to a point
where we can predict the future. The answer, by the way,
if you haven't heard the episode, is almost Yeah, we're
almost there and show will probably still be on when
that happens.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Right, And then you think about the massive network of
security cameras that exist in London alone and some of
this other stuff. That's what's happening, dude.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
That is it is true. By the way, my co
host is correct. The United Kingdom has the highest rate
of CCTV cameras or surveillance cameras in comparison to the
size of population in the world. Oh yeah, Now are
they all linked? The official answers no. The official answers
(44:17):
to no. So this is fascinating because quotes like this
persuade people who do believe that there's some sand to
the idea of psychic investigation. It seems like a smoking
gun if you believe this. You know what about the
United States? Well, the United States is overall more friendly
(44:40):
towards psychics in this regard. Way back in nineteen ninety three,
there was a survey of police departments from fifty of
the largest cities in the US, and they found that
the third of these departments had accepted information and predictions
from psychic detectives in the past. All of those police departments,
(45:03):
only seven treated this information from psychics differently than they
would a normal source. So that means only seven. Most likely,
that means only seven said Hey, this person's real crockpot
on high. Let's just leave them the simmer, you know,
and follow up some real leads.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
I get what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I feel like that was a convoluted way to get there.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
No, I got it, though, I say.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
I don't want to say a crock I'm trying to
make I'm trying to work crack pi. Yeah, you got it, man,
I don't know crackpot, crockpot, You're you're far too kind.
It also turns out that there's something counterintuitive at play here,
or at least we thought it was counterintuitive. Precincts in
larger cities are more likely to work with a psychic
(45:51):
than precincts in smaller cities.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
I'll tell you why. Why is that because they have
bigger media in those large cities, the more reasons for
the person to get on television or be in a
major news article if you're in a big city, do it.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
So you don't think it's a motivation of the police
or law enforcement. You think it's a motivation of the
person attempting to use psychic powers to investigate.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
I mean, that is my opinion with capital O. But yeah,
that's what I think.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
I never thought about that. That is a fascinating point. Still,
no police department reported in this study any instances of
a psychic investigator providing information that was more helpful than
other information or other leads they received during the course
of investigating a case. Since any information would have to
(46:40):
be proven correct, they could only use this stuff that
matched to other evidence as they were building a case. However,
we did find some interesting, tantalizing hints of instances of
unofficial cooperation.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Oh yeah, I mean, despite this whole almost universal dismiss
soul of all this psychic stuff and psychic based investigation,
there really is evidence that police have at least responded
to and in many cases analyze the claims of psychics.
So taking in all sources, you got to treat it
as though there might be something there, right, and organizations
(47:17):
such as the FBI have even taken this information into
some sort of account like thinking about it in some way,
even if they're not treating it as if it's full
on evidence.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Sure. Yeah. In a book called mind Hunter, inside the
FBI's elite Serial crime Unit, authors John Douglas and Mark
Olshaker note that a former senior investigator for the FBI
said psychics may be used as quote, a last resort
as an investigative tool, with caution for providing clues not
(47:49):
directly admissible in the court of laws, such as comments
on the criminal's character or the location of debt bodies.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
That's intense.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
That's incredible, right, because that is someone in the FBI saying, well,
it's not our favorite thing, but occasionally maybe yeah, you know,
it's not an alien occurrence to them. They didn't immediately
say that's some TV mini series brew Haha.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
Well, and that's John Douglass, one of the guys that
created the whole behavior analysts thing, like the sciences behind that.
He's one of the guys that did that. And just
to have someone that he's quoting in his book stating
something like that, that's a ooh right.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
And then again we see that many psychics and people
who support these practices believe that police departments are successfully
using these folks or successfully cooperating with these self reclaimed psychics,
but that the departments are keeping the knowledge hidden from
the public in order to preserve their own credibility. So
(48:59):
they might secretly go to some some hermit, you know,
and a fourth floor walk up in an apartment that
doesn't want anyone to know that they are capable of
finding names just by closing their eyes and holding an
object that the killer of the victim had. That would
(49:21):
be psychometry. It's a really cool power if it exists.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Well, at least we now know what John Edward is
doing now that he's I guess retired. He might not
be retired. Famous TV psychic.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Right, who claims to help people commune with their loved
ones who have passed beyond the mortal veil. You had
a TV show about it, he did. He was a
cold reader, right that. That would be my personal take,
to be honest with you. But but that's maybe a
(49:54):
story for another day. Today, we have some conclusions we
can make about this practice, which appears on surface to
be very American, more so than perhaps you and I
had assumed going in. What are our positive conclusions here, Matt.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Well, the biggest one I think we found is that
in this type of investigation, when there's a missing person's
case and there is a loved one, somebody has a
loved one who has gone missing, the most tangible benefit
of psychic involvement is hope. Because if you can imagine,
(50:32):
take yourself to a place where you're a family member
or a friend of yours has gone missing and the
police just can't make any progress because there's no evidence
for them to go on, there are no witnesses who
saw it happen. You just have zo all of these
questions and zero answers. Someone comes along and gives you
hope and says, I think I can help you find
(50:53):
this person. I think I know that they're here. That
that moment of hope, I think is the positive thing
I see. The problem is it slingshots a lot of
times to what the negative thing about psychics can be,
and that is dashing those hopes against PROCs or whatever
hard thing is nearby. How's that well, because the hope
(51:15):
that's generated, it's not necessarily false, it's just incorrect. A
lot of the times when I say false. I mean
it's not someone lying, it's just not the correct information
or you can't prove it. Yeah, exactly. And there is
no evidence to show that any kind of psychic powers work.
(51:36):
There's no current evidence to show that it works.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
There are some interesting experiments that have been conducted.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
Yeah, there are. They're experimentations that cannot be replicated though,
or they have yet to be replicated.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
And of course, fans of James Randy Will, we'll be
champion at the bit to point out that nobody has
won the one million dollar prize for proving any paranormal
activity or any psychic abilities. However, on a softer note,
it is again inarguable that you and I and everyone
(52:17):
we know and everyone we've ever met has experienced something inexplicable.
You can call it a strange, one in a million coincidence.
You can call it a slight glimpse at some part
of the universe or the human mind that we don't understand.
But whether skeptical or whether you know true believers, whether
(52:39):
you think it's all a cynical play for money, or
whether you think that not only our psychic power is real,
but that you have experienced an event like this. The
truth of the matter is that everyone has or will
experience something that they feel is inexplicable, and in many
cases the best science we have can make some educated
(53:03):
guesses or attempts to explain things, but not all of it.
Still not all of it. That doesn't mean that these
things are real. I hate to have to pump the
brakes on that one, but it does mean there's a
ton of stuff that we do not understand.
Speaker 3 (53:19):
Yes, there's still much for us as humans, you and
Ben and Paul and I to discover about what we are,
how we function, what our connection to one another is.
I think that's one of the biggest things. If n Noel,
Oh yeah, and Noel, because you know, I could definitely
feel him in here right now. Yeah, he was like
scratching on the mic earlier. I don't know if you
(53:40):
could hear that, but he is scratching on the mic.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
I predict he will agree largely. I think we're all
on the at least us in the room. We're on
the same page in this regard. So a conclusion from
the skeptic side would say that in most cases these
psychics are either flat out wrong or they're getting information
that was available through money day means they've either soaked
it up subconsciously, or it's a coincidence, or in the
(54:05):
worst case scenarios, they're purposely being misleading. They might be
using methods like the one you mentioned, Matt cold reading,
which is when you verbally and nonverbally fish for confirmation
to things that you are saying. You know tells that
people are displaying that they are not aware of, and
(54:26):
then you use those to make them believe that you
again you have access to knowledge.
Speaker 3 (54:32):
Yeah, you shape whatever you're saying to how they're responding.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
Right, Darren Brown is a master of something like that.
And then they'll also point out that the claims of
psychics appear to be vague and they're often reinterpreted to
retroactively fit the facts of a matter. So that would
be a situation similar to what we did in the
beginning of the show. There's someone near water, or it's
(54:56):
not water, or sometime before or after it is, it's
been Tuesday.
Speaker 3 (55:01):
I can see a number seven right.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Sometimes the way that horoscopes have been written in the past,
where it's like you are a unique person. Sometimes you
want to do things and you do them. Other times
you want to do them and you don't.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
There will be a hardship, but you will get past
it with the help of something.
Speaker 1 (55:20):
You're a person who enjoys some music, you know what
I mean. I'm not dinging anybody's spiritual belief system when
I'm specifically talking about when I'm knocking horoscopes, I'm knocking
those weekly half a paragraph things. I'm knocking them because
(55:41):
when I used to write them, I sure as heck
was just pulling rabbits out of a hat.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
What yeah, hold on, yep, hold on, yep. Can you
say who you wrote it for or what you wrote
it for?
Speaker 1 (55:54):
I wrote it for a student newspaper. That's awesome, it's great.
I wanted to write features for the paper, but they
told me. They asked me, do you believe in what
do you think about horoscopes? And I said I don't really,
I don't buy into it. And they said, cool, Well
you were hired and I said, great for what? And
they said the horoscope column. Got a slow clap on
(56:14):
that one.
Speaker 3 (56:14):
Oh man, you like you talked up Leo a lot. Right?
Speaker 1 (56:19):
No? No, no, no, no, no, I didn't. I wouldn't
think it was fair. No, Actually, I tried to make
it somewhat inspirational or useful for people.
Speaker 3 (56:29):
Was there ever a negative like a specific month or
a sign that had to be negative for like, did
you cycle through that because it can't all be negative?
Speaker 1 (56:38):
Right?
Speaker 3 (56:38):
No?
Speaker 1 (56:38):
And I was pretty open I wouldn't have done it
if I was deceiving people. I was pretty open in
the column about how I didn't believe in horse. They
were kind of on the level of a really poorly
written version of what you would read in the Onion
or Mad magazine or something. So last question, I was
not purposely deceiving people and to thinking I had some
(56:59):
sort of gotcha knowledge of the passage of the heavens.
Speaker 3 (57:03):
Last question, did you have a byline? And are they available.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Somewhere if you know? I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (57:14):
I'm gonna make T shirts with Ben Bolan's horoscomps.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
Be careful, Matt. Every so often off air, I threaten.
I threatened Matt with the idea of getting us all
T shirts with his face on them.
Speaker 3 (57:28):
Oh, okay, that's your birthday and we'll.
Speaker 1 (57:30):
Wear them around. So why don't you just you and
I just be in a T shirt armistice? Okay, T
shirts he accepted, so so that aside people on the
other side will will say that there is something to
this and that it's being repressed, and that's the reason
why it's so difficult to find provable instances of psychic
(57:55):
detectives solving crimes. That's why they would argue it's all
so impossible to find a single person who has been repeatedly,
consistently doing these things.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
Yeah, and at.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
This point we want to hear what you think. Do
you know of a case where a psychic persss inexplicably
or inarguably solved a crime or missing person's case, because
we've found things that sound tantalizing, but we haven't found
(58:29):
a home run. We haven't found anything that conclusively proves
these people are out there.
Speaker 3 (58:35):
Yeah. The biggest, the most successful version of this would
be finding a culprit I think like actually going and
pointing at someone saying that person did it right.
Speaker 1 (58:46):
And in serial killer cases, there are people who are
not only attempting to recover a body, but attempting to
find an active killer. And we also want to know
if you think this is all a con job or
you know, do you think these people are exploiting the
hopes of folks who've already undergone a tremendously traumatic event.
(59:09):
And do you think this practice will continue?
Speaker 3 (59:13):
Yeah, we want to hear what you think about this
because it You know, we've got our opinions, we let
some of them out today, but we want to hear yours.
You can find us on Facebook. You can find us
on Twitter where we're conspiracy stuff, on Instagram where conspiracy
Stuff show. If you want to call us, you can
call our number. It is one eight three three std WYTK.
(59:36):
That's stuff they don't want you to know. In acronym form.
Speaker 1 (59:40):
Yeah, twenty four to seven, six hundred and sixty six
days out of the year. You can call us directly
and leave a message. Let us know your take on this,
let us know your suggestions for future topics, let us
know the strange secrets that you believe your fellow listeners
either want to hear or need to hear. And you know,
(01:00:03):
I don't know about you, Matt, but I'd be open
to talking to an actual to a psychic detective.
Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Oh absolutely, I.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Would want to see. I would want to see their
take because I read some stuff accounts from several other
people claiming to be psychic detectives working currently, and one
guy was very candid. He said, he said that he
had a success rate about eighteen to twenty percent, and
(01:00:31):
he I mean, he said, I have eighteen to twenty
percent success rate and I'm being honest. Wow, And that
was intriguing. So stay tuned and perhaps we will have
a psychic detective in the future to tell us about
their experiences. In the meantime, as Matt said, we would
(01:00:52):
love to hear from you. We would also love to
hear your first hand experiences with things that, even if
you don't believe in psych powers, things you find really
difficult to.
Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
Explain any story about that.
Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
Yes, so let us know. You can also jump on
our community page Here's where it gets crazy on Facebook
to chat with Matt Noel, myself, and your fellow listeners.
Most importantly, that's where you can see us pop up
in some threads. It's where we also look for a
lot of topic suggestions for future episodes.
Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
In the meantime, I'm gonna work on getting Long Island
Medium on the show. Come on, man, Teresa Caputo.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Oh man, all right, will Matt succeed in? Uh man?
Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
Do you know Teresa Caputo get her on the show.
Never call one A three three s T d W
I t K. Leave her, leave a message, hopefully a
cell phone number. We'll get back to her. She she
already knows that we're doing this and this. Oh god,
just just cut all this.
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
No, is this revel All right?
Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
There's a Cabuos coming on the show.
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
All right, man, this guy please just keep it. Matt
Is is this Are you and old taking revenge on
me for the pizzagate comments previous episode?
Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
That's exactly what this is.
Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Well, we're square now, will we remain so? Will we
still remain close as to coworker's best of friends? Or
is this the end? It's hopefully not a real cliffhanger,
regardless of weather.
Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
And that's the end of this classic episode. If you
have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can
get into contact with us in a number of different ways.
One of the best is to give us a call.
Our number is one eight three three st d W
Y t K. If you don't want to do that,
you can send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to tonight's classic episode, and congratulations to any of
our fellow conspiracy realist who exercised their esp to predict
what episode was coming next. You know who you are,
you extra sexy people. Perhaps you can also help law
enforcement solve the crime.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, I'm sorry, I was being silly. You are all
very good looking, but yeah, it's true. Law enforcement in
the past surprisingly has employed folks claiming to have the
powers to see other things that are outside of their
physical purview. We also know about situations where folks have
been trained by the government to use this stuff for spying.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
It's pretty cool. Yeah. I remember we made this episode
in June of twenty eighteen, and we had just before
this a couple of months put out Atlanta Monster and
Ben the show talked to you specifically about psychics and
and solving crimes, because in the Atlanta missing and murdered case,
(01:04):
they brought on psychics, or rather psychics attempted to assist
in locating several people, right, people.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Who self identify as psychics. Maybe let's put it that way.
So this is a blast from the past or a
blast from the future, or you know, all things exist
at one point and linear time is a myth. Whatever.
We want to hear your thoughts. Have any psychics solved crime?
(01:32):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies? History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt
nol Is on Adventures Today.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yes they call me Ben, but most importantly you are you.
You are here that makes this stuff they don't want
you to know. We just got the green light from
our super producer, Paul mission controlled decandt.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
It is bright today too, Paul, cheez it is.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
It must be one of those new LED bulbs.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
I think that's what it is.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
But you know, I seem to recall that one of
us anticipated this, Matt, maybe even predicted it.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Oh, yes, it was it you.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Uh, it might have been. But you and I have
made many predictions on the show right and earlier. You
predicted that today's episode would be a success.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Yes, And I am not vague, not vague.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Not vague at all. Now I have a strange inkling
that someone who is listening to the show today is
either near or not near a body of water. Well
they're either I either their their name has the letter
E in it, or they know someone who does. Oh
(03:06):
my gosh, I know spooky right.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Oh wait, I'm sensing something all right, there's a dog barking.
I can hear the yep.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yep somewhere somewhere.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
It's a It sounds like a small breed. Uh. Oh,
just be careful if you can hear that dog.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I'm seeing a plane or some sort of a sky.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, like a pressurized air. Yeah. I can feel the
pressure of the air pressure.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I think it either was a Tuesday, or will be
in the future, or may even be right now. So
we were starting this off on a little bit of
a let's say, a little bit of a glib note
to you.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Just cast a net, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
And today, folks, we are tackling something many of you
have asked us about via email, YouTube comments back in
the day, and of course through social media, and that
is the nature of a psychic detective. Ultimately, the question
is have psychics actually solved crimes?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
And we've come across several of these types of psychics, right, yeah,
that have looked into crimes, Psychics that have been involved
with the law in some way or another been in
court in fact, but what we've never delved deeply into
the United States history of psychics, well and outside of
the United States as well.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
And so to be absolutely clear, this is a true
crime episode.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Oh yes, and that's really hot right now. We just
kind of.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Roll with it as an old friend again mastermind of
Atlanta Monster.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Oh yes, everything I did everything on that show. Yes, yes,
it's not true. That's think you should.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
See, Matt. You are so humble and modest. That was
shaking his head in a what are you doing to
me ben sort of fashion.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yes, let's talk about these old United States, the red, white,
and blue. Yeah, we got a bit of a problem
when it comes to people doing things that are against
the law.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Absolutely, absolutely, the US inarguably has a problem with crime,
and on an even more disturbing level, not only do
we have a problem with crime, but we have a
tremendous problem with solving crime. Only about half of the
violent crimes that take place in the US and only
(05:40):
about a third of property crimes that occur in the
US each year are even reported to police. So that's
not a dnion law enforcement. They can't do anything if
they don't know what's happening.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah, that is an intense statistic, just knowing that there's
that much crime occurring in this huge country that the
police don't even know about.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Right wow.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And there can be any number of reasons that people
would not report a crime. Maybe they don't want to
be implicated, or they have some some sort of sketchiness
in their past, right.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Well yeah, or if you take it to recent issues,
perhaps they might have a problem with immigration if they
were to report a crime. And that's that's a very
intense issue. If you know something bad has happened to you,
but if you do report it, you're probably gone from
this country, right.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
And there are many reasons that are similar to this,
and often very tragic. For instance, in cases of domestic
violence or something something where someone in your family or
even a loved one or a spouse or a significant
other has done something violent to you or someone you know,
(06:57):
but you don't want them to go to jail. These
are only some of the causes for a lack of
reporting crime. But let's look at the crimes that are reported.
Most of the crimes that are reported in the US
do not result in the arrest, charging, and prosecution of
a suspect. And that's according to government stats.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Right, according to the Bureau of Justice statistics in twenty fifteen,
Now that's just the most recent year that we had
statistics for. In twenty fifteen, forty seven percent of the
violent crimes and thirty five percent of the property crimes
tracked by that group were reported to police. So that
is well less than half, especially violent crimes thirty five percent.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Right, This is simply the reality of the situation. It
does not matter if you are an ardent supporter of
law enforcement in the US or in your home country,
whatever your neck of the global woods may be. And
it does not matter if you are a committed anarchist
who believes that we should just burn this house of
(08:02):
cards down. As experts work around the clock, at least
in theory, to solve these various crimes and these unexplained disappearances,
they use every possible resource legally available to close the case, or,
in examples that we've seen in fiction such as the wire,
(08:23):
sometimes illegal methods.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, exactly, well, because there are a lot of problems
that they run into when you're dealing with a disappearance.
There may be neighbors that did actually see something that
you could have a viable witness that don't want to
speak to the police for other various reasons, right, I mean,
we can go into all those, but let's just spend
a moment on the disappearances themselves. There are as many
(08:46):
as one hundred thousand active missing persons cases in the
United States at any given time. Yes, one hundred thousand.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
At any given moment. It does not matter if you
are listening to this podcast in twenty nineteen, twenty forty three,
any given moment since we started counting. Of these six
hundred ninety two thousand, nine hundred and forty four people
reported missing in twenty ten, for instance, five hundred thirty
(09:15):
one thousand, nine hundred and twenty eight were under the
age of eighteen. These are kids too.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Oh my god, that is an awful statistic.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
And we have more information regarding the statistic.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah? According to the National Crime Information Center, that's the NCIC,
three hundred and fifty five thousand, two hundred and forty
three women were reported missing in twenty ten compared to
three hundred and thirty seven thousand, six hundred and sixty men,
So not that much of a difference. But more women
(09:49):
going missing here in twenty ten.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And either way, even if we put gender divisions or
how people identify aside, we're still looking at hundreds of
thousands of people. And when we talk about missing persons,
we need to immediately bust some myths, some missing person myths.
It was oddly hard to say, Matt. First things, First,
(10:14):
you do not have to wait twenty four hours to
report a missing person. That is one of the most
dangerous misconceptions.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
And second, if you are an adult can choose to
go missing. You can report somebody who doesn't want to
be found, but it's within their legal right in most
cases in general, to ghosts if they wish. Wow, unless
you know doing that also violates a law such as
(10:45):
jumping bail.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Oh sure, And not to mention maybe the bill collectors right,
because you're probably paying somebody something on a monthly basis.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Sure, statistically that's true. And again, this is just the US,
so let us know how laws work in your country.
It may affect your experience with this topic we're exploring today.
In the United States, however, many of the people who
are reported missing are found within a few days. Unfortunately,
many other people will either not be found alive or
(11:16):
in some cases, not be found at all.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
And there really is a ticking clock situation here when
someone goes missing, every passing moment lessons that likelihood of
their safe recovery. You've heard that forty eight hours, that
two days that we just mentioned before is the most
crucial time to find a missing person, and it really is.
And as there are a lot of factors there too.
(11:41):
It has to do with police being able to put
their resources into a case. Sure, I mean, you know,
what could happen to you within forty eight hours. There's
just all kinds of factors there.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Racism and prejudice play an enormous role in this, either
systemic on the institutional level, wherefore, some reason of racism
or prejudice, a police precinct is not given the resources
it needs to address crime or individual matters of prejudice
where people say, oh, you know, people like that fall
(12:12):
off the grid all the time. He's probably just on
heroin or coeludes or something, and he'll come to eventually,
they'll show up.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, that's a real factor. And just that the fact
that there are all these people going missing every year
moment to moment, then all the other violent crimes, all
of the nonviolent crimes that have to be investigated, and
you think about the resource problem and it just becomes overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And then let's also factor in something that will become
very very important to today's episode. Media coverage.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Oh this is huge.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, So if a prominent person goes missing, say a
someone who is the child of a very important politician
or a very wealthy family, or if a celebrity goes
missing or something public figure, then the media will latch on.
And this means that a national spotlight is suddenly put
(13:06):
on the police department.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
It's like the Patty Hurst case.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Right, Yeah, that's a great example. It's no surprise then
that in some cases, perhaps more cases than you might assume,
police have employed unorthodox methods in their search for missing
persons or their quest to solve a crime. Here are
the facts, friends, neighbors. You have probably heard apocryphal tales
(13:32):
of a police department at its wits end finally resorting
to something that sounds like it's straight out of a
fantasy novel or an episode of the Twilight Zone, the
original series The Goodwin And that's an official law enforcement
organization actually contacting self proclaimed psychics for assistance with a case.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yes, this is a very real thing, and it comes
about in roughly two ways. The first, this one is
the psychic. This is the majority of the cases, by
the way that you hear about this, the psychic themselves
like contacts the police and says, hey, I heard about
this thing in the news. I need to tell you,
I need to talk to you about what I think
(14:14):
I've found or let me help you at least right right.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And this is huge. So when a case receives especially
if it receives national attention from a syndicated news source,
thousands of calls can roll into the precinct. And of
those thousands of calls, you'd be surprised how many of
them are calls from people claiming that through some extrasensory ability,
(14:43):
right through some sort of extrasensory perception.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Or dream or a vision or something, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Exactly, a dream or a vision, they have received something
that could help with the case. And many of the
other calls are going to be people who are saying
reporting a suspicious person like in America's Most Wanted, they
say this person is suicide. Build here's a sketch, or
here's a photo, and then you know they're inundated with
(15:10):
calls because someone you know in like ham Lake, Minnesota
or something, which is the real place, thought that they
saw a roughly six foot one guy with a beard
and a hoodie and that matched the description.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Right, yep.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
But we're focusing on the psychics, and the majority of cases,
as you said, Matt, are going to be someone who
believes they have psychic abilities contacting the investigating authorities with
the best of intentions.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah, I can help you. Yeah, I believe that I
found this and I want to tell you about.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And we want to say this at the front. Most
of these calls are from people who genuinely believe they're
doing the right thing. Are their hoaxes, Yes, of course, sure.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Are there charlatans, absolutely, but not all of these people
are in any way.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Right, at least not purposely so.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And the second method, and this is far less frequent
and far more interesting, would be when members of law
enforcement may reach out unofficially to a psychic. This happens
way less often the works of fiction, which have you believe,
and often when it does happen, there's a very strange,
(16:33):
convoluted series of events that occurs. We will see maybe
family members of the missing person themselves reach out to
a psychic and then they act as the middle ground, right,
the connecting tissue between law enforcement and the psychic. Or
we may see a member of law enforcement on their
(16:55):
own reach out. Yes, so not like an official letter
from the police chief saying, Madam Bell, please help us
find the notorious Uh uh tempany drum Thief.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, the timpany drum Thief was a notorious of it
for syth Central High School. I remember him.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
We were originally when we started this podcast years and
years ago, we were originally just going to make it
about that case.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah, I know that was gonna be the whole thing.
It was going to be called Drum Disappeared.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, and uh could you could you say the title again?
And Paul, could you could you throw in that theme
music we we used for our original demo, which I
think is just a timpany drum.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
This week on Drum Disappeared?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Uh, what a surefire hit, right, You.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Know, I feel like we really missed the boat there.
We need to we need to keep working on that show.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
We missed the beatd but no true story. These things happen.
Maybe not as much as we would like to believe,
but it's startling that they happen at all. And there
are multiple examples of this in the real world. So
let's go with the category that you proposed first, Matt,
(18:11):
which is an example of psychics contacting the police.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Absolutely, and we'll do that right after a word from
our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Let's set the scene. It's the first of May two
thousand and one, and a Washington DC intern named Chandra
Levy goes missing psychics from around the world, not just
in the United States hall and they provide tips from
realizations they've seen, revelations they've experienced, dreams or visions that
(18:48):
they have had, and they many of them say that
Levy is dead, that one way or another, she has died.
And many of their tips were suggestions or where to
search for her body. Some of these were vague and
some of them were a little more specific. And that's
(19:09):
interesting because typically what we find in these cases is
that psychic detectives are generally going to be kind of
vague because they're working off what they feel are intuitive,
intuitive sensations. Yeah, so one prediction was that her body
(19:32):
would be found in the basement of a Smithsonian storage
building kind of specific.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Yeah, really specific. Then another one would be just somewhere
in the Potomac.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
River, somewhere in the Nevada Desert.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
And you know, when you get to an entire river
or an entire desert, it's not really a prediction, it's
you know, like you said, a feeling that they may
have had or a vision. It's just hard to narrow
any of that down. And each of each of these
tips really didn't lead anywhere for the investigators.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Right, they were all dead ends. And of course the
people who are making these predictions aren't saying, you know,
they're not holding the information hostage. It's very important. They're
not saying they're buried somewhere in the Nevada Desert, I
know where, buy my book, or pay me the ransom
(20:24):
fee if there is one, or something like that. It's
not financially related in that way. A little more than
a year after her disappearance, Levy's body was discovered by
a man walking his dog in a remote section of
not the Smithsonian, not the Potomac, not the Nevada Desert, but.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
In Rock Creek Park, which is in northwest DC.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So out of all of the people from around the
world who called in. They were all wrong so far
as we know, according to the police department, according to
the media sources we could find, and we have other examples.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yes, Elizabeth Smart is another person who disappeared, this time
in June of two thousand and two, and in this case,
police received about nine thousand tips from psychics, and the
Salt Lake City Police Chief, Lieutenant Chris Burbank, he said
that responding to all of these, you know, all this advice,
(21:22):
it's unsolicited advice, it's just sent to them. It ate
up so many hours of police work. And the family
of Elizabeth Smart maintains that they received zero significant assistance
from psychics, which is sad that there are that many
people trying to help but no dice.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And there's a strange thing that occurs here too, because
we could say, maybe the police department does not want
to officially acknowledge that their lead came from some inexplicable phenomenon, right,
But it's tougher to say that the family would all
also participate in some kind of cover up. Because they
(22:02):
have no official institution binding them, they are free to
say what they wish. So in both of those cases,
it appears that again officially, none of these people were
able to help in a meaningful way. And furthermore, it
appears they were harming the investigation with the best of intentions,
(22:23):
because they were eating up hours that police could have
spent chasing other leads. And one of the things we
have to realize is in these examples and the other
examples we're exploring, it's not as if the police got
a phone call from a psychic and said, Okay, whoop
do you do. I'll get right on that. Let me
(22:46):
dial you up by a crystal from a crystal ball.
Even if they did think it was a load of bunk,
they at least compiled it, you know, gave it, gave
it consideration, probably not as a credible but they want
to have a record because if you if, for instance,
if of those nine thousand calls in a case like this,
(23:10):
even fifteen hundred or a thousand of them said hey,
there's this abandoned drug store on some city street fourth
and eighth, then you can you can be damn well
sure they're going to send somebody to fourth and eighth, absolutely,
just because the same place is being reported so often.
We also found that some psychics attain a degree of
(23:33):
fame or maybe notoriety is a better word, by repeatedly
attempting to assist law enforcement or appearing to assist law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yes. One of the most famous examples of this kind
of thing is the late Sylvia Celeste Brown. She was
once known as America's most controversial psychic, which is you know,
a moniker that makes sense?
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah, that came from from a writer working with the Guardian,
so that was a British papers perspective.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Yes, she had all kinds of television appearances.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah, she was on Larry King Live, she was on
Montel Williams. She had been a repeat guest on Coast
to Coast AM, which is has always been one of
my favorite am radio shows. Additionally, yes, we must say
fairly well to Art Bell, who recently passed away and
was a longtime host of Coast to Coast AM. You
(24:31):
are missed well. I brought the mood down there. But
she appeared on a lot of shows.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yes, she did. Let's go through some of the cases
that she, let's say, worked on. Yeah. In nineteen ninety
nine she said that the six year old opal Joe Jennings,
who had disappeared a month earlier had been forced into
slavery in Japan, and later that year a local man
was convicted of kidnapping and murdering Jennings in that's not
(25:02):
at all what she had alluded to. And then in
two thousand and three, in autopsy of jennings remains, found
that she had died within hours of her abduction.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
So no Japan, no human trafficking, a local criminal and
she died within hours.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
In two thousand and two, Brown claimed to have realizations
psychic realizations that is, about the fate of someone named
Holly Crusen, who disappeared in nineteen ninety five. Krusin Brown
claimed was working as an exotic dancer at a Hollywood nightclub. However,
in two thousand and six, dental records were used to
(25:44):
identify a body found in nineteen ninety six in San
Diego as that of Holly Crusin. So, in one case,
she claims that someone is alive and they are enslaved
in a foreign country. They are dead, and they died
relatively close to where they were kidnapped. In the other case,
(26:05):
she claims that someone is alive when they've been dead
for quite a while.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
So yeah, and there's more, and there is more. In
the year two thousand, a woman named Linda McClelland disappeared,
and then in two years later, in two thousand and two,
Brown claimed that she had been taken by a man
with the initials MJ and was alive somewhere in Orlando, Florida,
and she was going to be found soon, That's what
(26:34):
she said. And then in two thousand and three, McClellan's son,
David Rapaski, who had been present at Brown's reading, was
convicted of murdering McClellan, and her remains were found just
really close to her home in Pennsylvania. Again just so
far off the mark here.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Right, and this is two thousand and two, right, so
it's the same year as the cruising example. There was
another person who disappeared in two thousand. That was a
nineteen year old named Ryan Catcher, and Brown in two
thousand and four claimed that Cattra had been murdered and
his body would be found in a metal shaft in
(27:14):
two thousand and six. Two years later, his body was
found in his truck at the bottom of a pond,
and the autopsy indicated he had died due to drowning.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Now that one is that is the closest that I
think she came right.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
And it may sound as if we are cherry picking
to find unsuccessful cases. That's something that a lot of
supporters of this practice will will argue, right, yes, we
are pulling these from Admittedly a skeptical source called The
Skeptical Enquirer, so they mapped several studies of her work
(27:56):
over a couple of years. In twenty ten, they published
a three years study that was written by Ryan Schaeffer
and Agatha Jadwiscous that examined Brown's predictions about missing persons
and murder cases. This is over the span of three years.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Despite Brown's repeated claims to be more than eighty five
percent correct, this study reported that quote Brown has not
even been mostly correct in a single case. They compared
the psychics televised statements about one hundred and fifteen cases
with newspaper reports and said that in the twenty five
cases where the actual outcome was known, wherein experts found
(28:38):
the body or found the person, or they found the
method of death, et cetera, that in those twenty five cases,
Brown was completely wrong in every single one, and in
the rest, they said, where the final outcome was unknown,
They couldn't substantiate their her case. They couldn't say whether
she was right or wrong because not enough information right
(28:59):
other than her belief that, you know, she was legitimately
receiving signals from some other source. And then they did
a follow up study in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yes, and this one it looked at some of the
more recent predictions by Brown, as well as the predictions
that had earlier been classified as undetermined because there were
you know, there wasn't enough information, because a lot of
those were now largely resolved. And according to Schaeffer, Brown
was mostly or completely wrong in thirty three cases and
(29:30):
mostly accurate in none.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
And to this day, as supporters of Brown will will
typically say that this record looks bad because people were
again only picking out unsuccessful cases. The folks at the
skeptical inquirer will argue that they gave a comprehensive look
at all possible instances where Brown would have been correct.
(29:58):
People also say, well, maybe the police department is not
telling the whole truth, which unfortunately is a not uncommon
occurrence in the US nowadays and in the past. Let's
look at an example of police contacting a psychic of
the much less common Dare I say, much more fascinating
(30:22):
category that we mentioned.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Yeah, and I think this category is born from desperation
from a police department or law enforcement agency, at least
it is in this first example. So, in nineteen eighty,
the Atlanta Police Department contacted a self proclaimed psychic named
Dorothy Allison, and they were contacting her to assist with
(30:43):
finding a serial killer that they could not locate. And
this is according to the Washington Post from nineteen eighty.
So at the time, Dorothy was working on or she
had just written this book, and she was on a
book tour. It was called a Psychic Story. And she
had recently gone on what is it the Phil Donahue Show,
(31:04):
which was huge at the time, one of those talk shows.
And after this appearance, apparently according to this article and
according to City Hall of Atlanta, the citizens, numerous citizens
were just flooding their phone networks with people saying, you
need to talk to Dorothy Allison. She's going to help
(31:24):
you out. So this is in the midst of the
Atlanta child murders which occurred from nineteen seventy nine to
eighty one, and at this point within the Atlanta child murders,
where there were thirty plus victims of mostly children, there
were already ten young black children who had disappeared and
then been found murdered, and then there were four others
(31:45):
who were actively missing.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Several other ones hadn't been reported.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yet exactly, and there were no major suspects in the
case at this moment. So the department itself, the police department,
along with the task force that they created and the
FBI are just desperate to get any lead, anything at all.
So they called her. And according to Dorothy Allison, she
had worked with police in more than a hundred cases,
including the Patty Hurst case, the kidnapping, as well as
(32:12):
the John Gaysey murders the John Wayne Gacy murders. She
also stated within this article after speaking to people there,
that she had helped find more than fifty missing persons
through her visions. So she's claiming that over fifty people
have been found by her. Here's the tough thing. Even
(32:33):
the mothers of some of these children who were slain,
the victims, they were really hopeful that Dorothy might actually
come in and find something that just the police investigations.
The more mundane ways of finding somebody. It wasn't working.
They were hopeful that Dorothy could. There's a quote here
from Willie May Mathis, who was the mother of one
(32:55):
of the victims, Jeffrey Mathis, and she said, I believe
in Dorothy Allison. She is not raising false hopes, but
I pray she'll tell me my child is still alive.
And that kind of the sense that you give a victim,
a victim's family member when you have a psychic coming
in that there's hope or something at the end of
the tunnel. It's so positive and negative at the same time,
(33:20):
which is fascinating to me.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
It's powerful. I could tell that it really got to
you as well in the course of your research.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
It moved you, well, it did, because I want to
believe that Dorothy was trying to help out, but I
know she's also trying to sell her book. She's actively
trying to sell her book, and this is a huge
national case, and she's putting herself in front of the
camera when she's doing this investigation. She's being driven around
in a limousine right with three days yes, and taking
(33:50):
what they referred to after the fact, a wild goose Chase.
She named over thirty names of who it possibly could
be forty two I think, yeah, it was closer to
forty two. Williams was not in there, although I believe
she claims that Williams was in there. Wayne Williams is
the name of the person eventually who's convicted of these crimes.
(34:12):
In the end, it seems like she didn't lead them anywhere.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
And we were looking because I was helping with a
little bit of the research for the Monster Show, and
one of the things we found was that many people
associated with law enforcement APD at the time did not
buy this lady's story.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Yeah, they didn't want it to even happen, because her
story is that she helped all these people. Was an
investigator from New Jersey that would be her interpreter for
other police departments, because she would give these vague descriptions
and then this interpreter would go through and say, well,
you know, this is what she.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Really means, right, And there's something oracular about that because
it calls to mind, you know, the ways that profits
or sears of old would have a spiritual revelation, say
at Delphi or something, and then someone else would interpret
that for the common people. Yeah, the non enlightened amongst us.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yeah, you're writing that line between if something like this
was real, perhaps you would need something like that, but
then also if it's not real, it's a helpful tool
to kind of obfuscate what's going on.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
So now the question that I can predict is on
everyone's mind, is ah, Matt Ben Paul mission controlled decandt
are you all really telling us that this is an
enormous con job? Is the stuff they don't want you
(35:49):
to know in this episode, the fact that some psychics
don't want you to know they actually don't have powers.
Are you going to spend this entire time pooh poohing
the hope that families have? Not quite? Not quite? And
it's surprised. Frankly, it surprised both of us to find this.
And they all, oddly enough come from Australia. What yes, yes, down,
(36:14):
Nda down, Anda, Am I saying that correctly? Melbourne?
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's right, Melbourne, Melbourne.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Oh boy, we're gonna get a letter about that. So yes.
In two thousand and one, the body of Thomas Braun
b r a u N was located by a Perth
based clairvoyant named Leanna Adams in Western Australia. The body
(36:44):
was in Western Australia. Rather, Braun's family had been told
to contact Adams. They didn't come out, they didn't come
up with this idea of whole cloth. Adams went to
Alice Springs in the Northern Territory of Australia and apparently
she took the family members directly to Thomas Braun's remains
(37:04):
and it was in a ridge that was about twenty
kilometers west of town. They couldn't immediately identify the body,
but Adams, again, according to the story, said note that
is him, and police later confirmed the remains to be
his through DNA testing. That's astonishing, it's just the surface
(37:26):
of that is true. Right, And again this psychic was
based in Perth. And that's not the only case that
comes to us from Australia. We'll have a couple more
for you. Stay tuned after the break. So here's another one.
(37:46):
If we jump around in time a little bit. This
one messes, I think with geography the most. In Sydney, Australia,
in nineteen ninety six, the fiance of a missing person
named Paula Brown approached a psychic named Philippe Durant to
(38:06):
ask for help.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
I think it's Philip Durrant. Philip, I just so you
understand how it's spelled, Philip Durant.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yesh So Durrant told the police the location of Paula
Brown's body. Durrant himself did not physically go and find
the body. It was spotted within two miles of where
he predicted it would be found by a lorry driver
who came across the remains, and this prompted a statement
(38:40):
that changed the game for people who are advocates of
psychic detective work. It was this.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Even though the body was discovered purely by chance, the
speculation by a clairvoyant appears to have been uncannily accurate.
Which is a quote from ast spokesperson from the police
department there, and it's I mean, it's true. If you
just pointed on a map somewhere and said, I think
that's where it is, and then within two kilometers that's
where the person is, that's at least the chances are
(39:09):
very slim for that.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I mean, some people would argue they're not as slim
as we would think, but I feel, at the very
least it's a stunning coincidence that's true, very least.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
It is going to happen every once in a while,
right sure, yeah, just by odds, but it feels extra special.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
There was another let's call it a near miss. This
is a weird one and it's much more recent. In
August of twenty ten, an Aboriginal elder named Cheryl Carol
Loggerway claimed that she had seen the location of a
missing child, a child named Keisha Abraham's, in a dream.
(39:49):
That the location of this body came to her in
a dream. Police had been investigating the disappearance, and Carol
Loggerway took them, took law enforcement to a look where
they did in fact find a dead body.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
However, it was a body of an adult female, not
of the child, fortunately unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Right, So it was another maybe we could call it
a near miss.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
But in that situation, what happened there? Could she sense
the dead body somehow? I mean that again is astonishing
to me?
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Right, And if someone is being skeptical, they might say, well,
did she know of the dead body? And feel like
this was the safest way to reveal it? Maybe you
know there are layers to that tail. Oh yeah, So
the question then becomes has any psychic actually solved a case.
Here's where it gets crazy. No, well, officially no, right,
(40:54):
The official answer is almost always going to be heck no,
even in cases where individuals, family members, relatives, or law
enforcement professionals believe psychics did provide some sort of assistance.
In fact, multiple law enforcement agencies have official statements claiming
they have never and are not currently and will not
(41:16):
in the future, treat psychic advice as quote credible information.
Not even Australia, they say they do not officially accept
assistance from psychics in most cases, don't call us, We'll
call you, for lack of a better phrase. However, in
Western Australia, the Western Australia Police say that while they
will not seek out info from psychics, they will accept
(41:38):
info if it is offered.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the way to handle it.
On the off chance that somebody gets lucky or actually
does have some kind of powers and know something, we'll
take it. But for now we're going to focus on
police work.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Let's look at some other countries. New Zealand. New Zealand
and the United Kingdom also do not officially interact with
psychic or the phrase they use spiritual based information, spiritually
derived information. Although again there's another interesting twist.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Yeah, the United Kingdom's Metropolitan Police was a bit shady
about the way they handle this thing. They're saying, quote,
we do not identify people we may or may not
speak with in connection with inquiries. We are not prepared
to discuss this further. Just gotta leave that door open.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
That is so sketchy. I wouldn't say it's a bit shady.
We do not identify people we may or may not
speak with in connection with inquiries. We're not prepared to
discuss this further. It sounds like they're not specifically referring
to the question at all to psychic detectives any that
(42:50):
could be anything, as that's a blanket statement that also covers,
for instance, seis or other inmates or something.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
And you know, for some reason in that phrase, that
whole phrase feels very British to me.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Right, It reminds me of CIA speak. Yeah, it's spook speak.
But the that's the thing they're not saying yes or no.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Dude, they're hiding. What they're doing with that is they're
hiding their interaction with some master AI that they're working
with to solve crimes. That's what they're.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Doing, right. This is this similar to that episode where
we asked if technology would lead us to a point
where we can predict the future. The answer, by the way,
if you haven't heard the episode, is almost Yeah, we're
almost there and show will probably still be on when
that happens.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Right, And then you think about the massive network of
security cameras that exist in London alone and some of
this other stuff. That's what's happening, dude.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
That is it is true. By the way, my co
host is correct. The United Kingdom has the highest rate
of CCTV cameras or surveillance cameras in comparison to the
size of population in the world. Oh yeah, Now are
they all linked? The official answers no. The official answers
(44:17):
to no. So this is fascinating because quotes like this
persuade people who do believe that there's some sand to
the idea of psychic investigation. It seems like a smoking
gun if you believe this. You know what about the
United States? Well, the United States is overall more friendly
(44:40):
towards psychics in this regard. Way back in nineteen ninety three,
there was a survey of police departments from fifty of
the largest cities in the US, and they found that
the third of these departments had accepted information and predictions
from psychic detectives in the past. All of those police departments,
(45:03):
only seven treated this information from psychics differently than they
would a normal source. So that means only seven. Most likely,
that means only seven said Hey, this person's real crockpot
on high. Let's just leave them the simmer, you know,
and follow up some real leads.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
I get what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I feel like that was a convoluted way to get there.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
No, I got it, though, I say.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
I don't want to say a crock I'm trying to
make I'm trying to work crack pi. Yeah, you got it, man,
I don't know crackpot, crockpot, You're you're far too kind.
It also turns out that there's something counterintuitive at play here,
or at least we thought it was counterintuitive. Precincts in
larger cities are more likely to work with a psychic
(45:51):
than precincts in smaller cities.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
I'll tell you why. Why is that because they have
bigger media in those large cities, the more reasons for
the person to get on television or be in a
major news article if you're in a big city, do it.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
So you don't think it's a motivation of the police
or law enforcement. You think it's a motivation of the
person attempting to use psychic powers to investigate.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
I mean, that is my opinion with capital O. But yeah,
that's what I think.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
I never thought about that. That is a fascinating point. Still,
no police department reported in this study any instances of
a psychic investigator providing information that was more helpful than
other information or other leads they received during the course
of investigating a case. Since any information would have to
(46:40):
be proven correct, they could only use this stuff that
matched to other evidence as they were building a case. However,
we did find some interesting, tantalizing hints of instances of
unofficial cooperation.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Oh yeah, I mean, despite this whole almost universal dismiss
soul of all this psychic stuff and psychic based investigation,
there really is evidence that police have at least responded
to and in many cases analyze the claims of psychics.
So taking in all sources, you got to treat it
as though there might be something there, right, and organizations
(47:17):
such as the FBI have even taken this information into
some sort of account like thinking about it in some way,
even if they're not treating it as if it's full
on evidence.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Sure. Yeah. In a book called mind Hunter, inside the
FBI's elite Serial crime Unit, authors John Douglas and Mark
Olshaker note that a former senior investigator for the FBI
said psychics may be used as quote, a last resort
as an investigative tool, with caution for providing clues not
(47:49):
directly admissible in the court of laws, such as comments
on the criminal's character or the location of debt bodies.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
That's intense.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
That's incredible, right, because that is someone in the FBI saying, well,
it's not our favorite thing, but occasionally maybe yeah, you know,
it's not an alien occurrence to them. They didn't immediately
say that's some TV mini series brew Haha.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
Well, and that's John Douglass, one of the guys that
created the whole behavior analysts thing, like the sciences behind that.
He's one of the guys that did that. And just
to have someone that he's quoting in his book stating
something like that, that's a ooh right.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
And then again we see that many psychics and people
who support these practices believe that police departments are successfully
using these folks or successfully cooperating with these self reclaimed psychics,
but that the departments are keeping the knowledge hidden from
the public in order to preserve their own credibility. So
(48:59):
they might secretly go to some some hermit, you know,
and a fourth floor walk up in an apartment that
doesn't want anyone to know that they are capable of
finding names just by closing their eyes and holding an
object that the killer of the victim had. That would
(49:21):
be psychometry. It's a really cool power if it exists.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Well, at least we now know what John Edward is
doing now that he's I guess retired. He might not
be retired. Famous TV psychic.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Right, who claims to help people commune with their loved
ones who have passed beyond the mortal veil. You had
a TV show about it, he did. He was a
cold reader, right that. That would be my personal take,
to be honest with you. But but that's maybe a
(49:54):
story for another day. Today, we have some conclusions we
can make about this practice, which appears on surface to
be very American, more so than perhaps you and I
had assumed going in. What are our positive conclusions here, Matt.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Well, the biggest one I think we found is that
in this type of investigation, when there's a missing person's
case and there is a loved one, somebody has a
loved one who has gone missing, the most tangible benefit
of psychic involvement is hope. Because if you can imagine,
(50:32):
take yourself to a place where you're a family member
or a friend of yours has gone missing and the
police just can't make any progress because there's no evidence
for them to go on, there are no witnesses who
saw it happen. You just have zo all of these
questions and zero answers. Someone comes along and gives you
hope and says, I think I can help you find
(50:53):
this person. I think I know that they're here. That
that moment of hope, I think is the positive thing
I see. The problem is it slingshots a lot of
times to what the negative thing about psychics can be,
and that is dashing those hopes against PROCs or whatever
hard thing is nearby. How's that well, because the hope
(51:15):
that's generated, it's not necessarily false, it's just incorrect. A
lot of the times when I say false. I mean
it's not someone lying, it's just not the correct information
or you can't prove it. Yeah, exactly. And there is
no evidence to show that any kind of psychic powers work.
(51:36):
There's no current evidence to show that it works.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
There are some interesting experiments that have been conducted.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
Yeah, there are. They're experimentations that cannot be replicated though,
or they have yet to be replicated.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
And of course, fans of James Randy Will, we'll be
champion at the bit to point out that nobody has
won the one million dollar prize for proving any paranormal
activity or any psychic abilities. However, on a softer note,
it is again inarguable that you and I and everyone
(52:17):
we know and everyone we've ever met has experienced something inexplicable.
You can call it a strange, one in a million coincidence.
You can call it a slight glimpse at some part
of the universe or the human mind that we don't understand.
But whether skeptical or whether you know true believers, whether
(52:39):
you think it's all a cynical play for money, or
whether you think that not only our psychic power is real,
but that you have experienced an event like this. The
truth of the matter is that everyone has or will
experience something that they feel is inexplicable, and in many
cases the best science we have can make some educated
(53:03):
guesses or attempts to explain things, but not all of it.
Still not all of it. That doesn't mean that these
things are real. I hate to have to pump the
brakes on that one, but it does mean there's a
ton of stuff that we do not understand.
Speaker 3 (53:19):
Yes, there's still much for us as humans, you and
Ben and Paul and I to discover about what we are,
how we function, what our connection to one another is.
I think that's one of the biggest things. If n Noel,
Oh yeah, and Noel, because you know, I could definitely
feel him in here right now. Yeah, he was like
scratching on the mic earlier. I don't know if you
(53:40):
could hear that, but he is scratching on the mic.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
I predict he will agree largely. I think we're all
on the at least us in the room. We're on
the same page in this regard. So a conclusion from
the skeptic side would say that in most cases these
psychics are either flat out wrong or they're getting information
that was available through money day means they've either soaked
it up subconsciously, or it's a coincidence, or in the
(54:05):
worst case scenarios, they're purposely being misleading. They might be
using methods like the one you mentioned, Matt cold reading,
which is when you verbally and nonverbally fish for confirmation
to things that you are saying. You know tells that
people are displaying that they are not aware of, and
(54:26):
then you use those to make them believe that you
again you have access to knowledge.
Speaker 3 (54:32):
Yeah, you shape whatever you're saying to how they're responding.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
Right, Darren Brown is a master of something like that.
And then they'll also point out that the claims of
psychics appear to be vague and they're often reinterpreted to
retroactively fit the facts of a matter. So that would
be a situation similar to what we did in the
beginning of the show. There's someone near water, or it's
(54:56):
not water, or sometime before or after it is, it's
been Tuesday.
Speaker 3 (55:01):
I can see a number seven right.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Sometimes the way that horoscopes have been written in the past,
where it's like you are a unique person. Sometimes you
want to do things and you do them. Other times
you want to do them and you don't.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
There will be a hardship, but you will get past
it with the help of something.
Speaker 1 (55:20):
You're a person who enjoys some music, you know what
I mean. I'm not dinging anybody's spiritual belief system when
I'm specifically talking about when I'm knocking horoscopes, I'm knocking
those weekly half a paragraph things. I'm knocking them because
(55:41):
when I used to write them, I sure as heck
was just pulling rabbits out of a hat.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
What yeah, hold on, yep, hold on, yep. Can you
say who you wrote it for or what you wrote
it for?
Speaker 1 (55:54):
I wrote it for a student newspaper. That's awesome, it's great.
I wanted to write features for the paper, but they
told me. They asked me, do you believe in what
do you think about horoscopes? And I said I don't really,
I don't buy into it. And they said, cool, Well
you were hired and I said, great for what? And
they said the horoscope column. Got a slow clap on
(56:14):
that one.
Speaker 3 (56:14):
Oh man, you like you talked up Leo a lot. Right?
Speaker 1 (56:19):
No? No, no, no, no, no, I didn't. I wouldn't
think it was fair. No, Actually, I tried to make
it somewhat inspirational or useful for people.
Speaker 3 (56:29):
Was there ever a negative like a specific month or
a sign that had to be negative for like, did
you cycle through that because it can't all be negative?
Speaker 1 (56:38):
Right?
Speaker 3 (56:38):
No?
Speaker 1 (56:38):
And I was pretty open I wouldn't have done it
if I was deceiving people. I was pretty open in
the column about how I didn't believe in horse. They
were kind of on the level of a really poorly
written version of what you would read in the Onion
or Mad magazine or something. So last question, I was
not purposely deceiving people and to thinking I had some
(56:59):
sort of gotcha knowledge of the passage of the heavens.
Speaker 3 (57:03):
Last question, did you have a byline? And are they available.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Somewhere if you know? I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (57:14):
I'm gonna make T shirts with Ben Bolan's horoscomps.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
Be careful, Matt. Every so often off air, I threaten.
I threatened Matt with the idea of getting us all
T shirts with his face on them.
Speaker 3 (57:28):
Oh, okay, that's your birthday and we'll.
Speaker 1 (57:30):
Wear them around. So why don't you just you and
I just be in a T shirt armistice? Okay, T
shirts he accepted, so so that aside people on the
other side will will say that there is something to
this and that it's being repressed, and that's the reason
why it's so difficult to find provable instances of psychic
(57:55):
detectives solving crimes. That's why they would argue it's all
so impossible to find a single person who has been repeatedly,
consistently doing these things.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
Yeah, and at.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
This point we want to hear what you think. Do
you know of a case where a psychic persss inexplicably
or inarguably solved a crime or missing person's case, because
we've found things that sound tantalizing, but we haven't found
(58:29):
a home run. We haven't found anything that conclusively proves
these people are out there.
Speaker 3 (58:35):
Yeah. The biggest, the most successful version of this would
be finding a culprit I think like actually going and
pointing at someone saying that person did it right.
Speaker 1 (58:46):
And in serial killer cases, there are people who are
not only attempting to recover a body, but attempting to
find an active killer. And we also want to know
if you think this is all a con job or
you know, do you think these people are exploiting the
hopes of folks who've already undergone a tremendously traumatic event.
(59:09):
And do you think this practice will continue?
Speaker 3 (59:13):
Yeah, we want to hear what you think about this
because it You know, we've got our opinions, we let
some of them out today, but we want to hear yours.
You can find us on Facebook. You can find us
on Twitter where we're conspiracy stuff, on Instagram where conspiracy
Stuff show. If you want to call us, you can
call our number. It is one eight three three std WYTK.
(59:36):
That's stuff they don't want you to know. In acronym form.
Speaker 1 (59:40):
Yeah, twenty four to seven, six hundred and sixty six
days out of the year. You can call us directly
and leave a message. Let us know your take on this,
let us know your suggestions for future topics, let us
know the strange secrets that you believe your fellow listeners
either want to hear or need to hear. And you know,
(01:00:03):
I don't know about you, Matt, but I'd be open
to talking to an actual to a psychic detective.
Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Oh absolutely, I.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Would want to see. I would want to see their
take because I read some stuff accounts from several other
people claiming to be psychic detectives working currently, and one
guy was very candid. He said, he said that he
had a success rate about eighteen to twenty percent, and
(01:00:31):
he I mean, he said, I have eighteen to twenty
percent success rate and I'm being honest. Wow, And that
was intriguing. So stay tuned and perhaps we will have
a psychic detective in the future to tell us about
their experiences. In the meantime, as Matt said, we would
(01:00:52):
love to hear from you. We would also love to
hear your first hand experiences with things that, even if
you don't believe in psych powers, things you find really
difficult to.
Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
Explain any story about that.
Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
Yes, so let us know. You can also jump on
our community page Here's where it gets crazy on Facebook
to chat with Matt Noel, myself, and your fellow listeners.
Most importantly, that's where you can see us pop up
in some threads. It's where we also look for a
lot of topic suggestions for future episodes.
Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
In the meantime, I'm gonna work on getting Long Island
Medium on the show. Come on, man, Teresa Caputo.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Oh man, all right, will Matt succeed in? Uh man?
Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
Do you know Teresa Caputo get her on the show.
Never call one A three three s T d W
I t K. Leave her, leave a message, hopefully a
cell phone number. We'll get back to her. She she
already knows that we're doing this and this. Oh god,
just just cut all this.
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
No, is this revel All right?
Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
There's a Cabuos coming on the show.
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
All right, man, this guy please just keep it. Matt
Is is this Are you and old taking revenge on
me for the pizzagate comments previous episode?
Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
That's exactly what this is.
Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Well, we're square now, will we remain so? Will we
still remain close as to coworker's best of friends? Or
is this the end? It's hopefully not a real cliffhanger,
regardless of weather.
Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
And that's the end of this classic episode. If you
have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can
get into contact with us in a number of different ways.
One of the best is to give us a call.
Our number is one eight three three st d W
Y t K. If you don't want to do that,
you can send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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