March 3, 2025 • 38 mins
True story: Ben, Matt and Noel know 'witches.' We’re all familiar with the spooky, stereotypical witch depicted in film, fiction and folklore – a creepy crone with a pointy hat, riding a broom through the sky and cackling at the moon, often accompanied by her animal sidekick. But how accurate are these depictions? Were there ever really any covens, any infernal Black Masses and secret rituals dedicated to the powers of darkness? Join Stuff They Don’t Want You To Know as the guys explore fact, fiction and controversy around the real-life stories of witches and covens. (Spoiler, this is a live show, which means the thing they call Ben is required to stay on the rails.)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Fellow conspiracy realists. We are returning to you from far
away with some classic episodes that we think you will
really enjoy. Sometimes will air interviews, sometimes will air full episodes,
and sometimes we'll be able to do something really special,
like share a previous exploration we had a long time ago, Noel,
(00:23):
we were on the road, we were going live. Once
upon a time we talked about real life covet.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Oh, that's right, this is a live show, and we're
all familiar with the spooky stereotypical witches that are depicted
in films like the Vivivich in fiction and folklore, etc.
But what does that look like in the real world?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
How much sand is there to those historic descriptions of
you know, pointy hats writing brooms through the sky. How
much of that is Hollywood? How much of that is
ancient folklore? How much of that, along with reporting of
infernal black masses and so on, was nothing more than
a hit piece. This is the question we answer in
(01:03):
this live show.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Special Halloween episode Live from the iHeart Offices in New
York set.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Oh that's where it was. Yes, that's correct, So get
spoopy with us.
Speaker 5 (01:12):
Indeed, let's roll it.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
Hello, everyone, welcome to the pre show introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, the sort of the lobby or the foyer to
the actual show.
Speaker 6 (01:47):
Yes, I'm glad we have that door opening and the
you know, the beginning, the ding dong doorbell, just let
you know you're walking into the foyer.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Now the proper word is doorbell, not the ding dong
ding dong.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Six there second.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, it's true, it's true. The three of us recently
went to New York City, just like you've heard about
in the salty commercials, and we did an episode on
real life covens.
Speaker 6 (02:14):
Yeah, it's looking at the history of really what a
witch is, what it you know, what it is in
popular culture, How it's how the concept has been viewed
over the centuries, as well as what an actual group
of people who would be who would consider themselves to
be witches, how they function together.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, and this was something we were asked to do
at our home offices at iHeart Media headquarters in Midtown New.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
York and it was a pretty tight little affair.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I think we did about thirty five minutes on the
subject and then we're.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
Out to light bites and cocktails and schmoosery. And it
was a very nice evening.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
And we had a lovely intro by a friend of
the show, ConL Byrne, which you will not hear, but
it was.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
It was nice, filthy, It was filthy but glowing.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, like Bob Saget's stand up set. Yeah, we were
very excited about this. We wanted to share it with you.
Speaker 7 (03:11):
We also want you to know that we did this,
of course, right before Halloween, so you're us hyping up.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
The Halloween that was passed. So travel back there with
us and let us determine between fiction and fact, which
which is the most accurate?
Speaker 6 (03:29):
Yes, and Ben is right, your calendars are correct. It
is not Halloween. But but let's let's have some how
about some early nostalgia for Halloween twenty nineteen.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
I can't wait without further ado.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Here we go.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
Hello, Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
They call me Ben.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
That's our super producer, Paul mission controlled Decan on the
figure of ones and twos. Give it up for him.
But most importantly, you are here. You are you, and
that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know.
Live at iHeart headquarters here in New York.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
So give it up for yourself.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
Yes, yeah, we are in fact recording this. This will
be a real episode of the show.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So you are part of podcast history, or at least
part of our podcast feed.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Right, So you're sort of you're all co host with
us tonight, and we're standing in a.
Speaker 6 (04:20):
Very surreal place that most of you just think is
normal now, but it most certainly is not.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
There's like a hologram in the hallway, they change.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
The lights, there's a smoke machine in the conference room
that we've been posted up at, and lasers.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
It's bonkers.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Yeah, we almost just stayed and played with that.
Speaker 8 (04:36):
This.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
As you're hearing this out there in podcast lands, it
is almost Halloween, one of the very most wonderful times
of the year, according to us at least, right, you know,
we've got a cavalcade of potential monsters that are going
to be strolling the streets. We think of vampires, right,
we think of were wolves, and of course we think
of witches.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
Now, modern science has pretty much conclusively proven that vampires
and werewolves didn't exist, at least in the way that
we popularly think about them or the way we imagine
them and portray them. However, witches are a little bit different.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
So what is this stereotypical kind of type of witch
that we think of, Where does it come from? And
most importantly, are any of those strange stories actually true?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
So we have to start addressing that question the way
we always start addressing any question witches, sorry, which is
with the facts. So here are the facts. It's fair
to say that we're all pretty familiar with at least
the stereotype of the Western European witch, right, we know
the traditional witch and film fiction folklore. They'll typically be
(05:45):
a woman, they're often older. They've got for some reason,
a wide brimmed, pointy hat.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, they might have warts or like weird green skin
like in the Wizard of Oz, or some kind of
at least jaundice appearance or whatever.
Speaker 5 (05:57):
And they've got talent.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Like nails, very goth dark clothing, they have wicked cackles,
and after all that, they might fly through the sky,
usually with the aid of some sort of household appliance,
like a like a broom or a mortar and pestle,
or to modernize it, maybe a vacuum cleaners.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
I don't know, says us. A lot only.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
Also a lot of times we'll have a demonic sidekick
called a familiar, which is, you know, a rat and
an owl or something to that effect, maybe a cat.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, we should note the stereotype of familiars in Europe
came about before Europeans knew what chihuahuas are. Those are
the most demonic of household pets. I'm sorry, I wait,
some enemies.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, I think they look like evil little blueberry muffins
with their weird, dead black eyes. It's absolutely while you
were shivering unclear, it's a different it's a different episode,
is what it is.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
But okay, so we're talking so that's a witch singular individual.
But what happens when we get to the idea of
a group of witches? Yeah?
Speaker 6 (06:58):
Yeah, So according to these stories, very seldom would you
see a witch who was acting alone. A lot of
times you'd see them colluding and conspiring with like minded
other practitioners of sorcery. In these things that were called
and are called covens, at least within the popular culture.
And these were secretive groups that would meet together to
you know, worship a certain deity or an evil entity
(07:21):
or and a lot of times try and make the
infernal powers that exist within that realm happen on the
mortal plane.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And as secretive groups tend to do, they would meet
in secretive places like old standing stones in the woods, cemeteries,
ancient sites outside of town, abandoned buildings, and cellars, and
covens witches were engaged in perverse mockeries or parodies of
religious rights, Christian rights specifically. The most famous coven right
(07:51):
was something that's called the black mass.
Speaker 5 (07:54):
Yeah, yeah, come on, yeah.
Speaker 6 (07:56):
It all sounds scary. And as we're going through here,
we're gonna we're kind of weaving this tale right of
what this stuff was like or what the way we
think about it right.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
Reception for sure.
Speaker 6 (08:05):
So we're getting into a tale now that's not for
the faint of heart.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
True. Oh yeah, we should have said that at the top.
But these are adults. I think we're.
Speaker 6 (08:14):
Fine, We're going to we can handle this together. Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
So the descriptions of black masses, this was a popular
scary news story of the day, right, and we have
found genuine descriptions, or what purport to be genuine descriptions
of a black mass. One in particular that spoke to
us was from a book written in fifteen ninety seven.
(08:37):
It was called, in a burst of creativity, the Antichrist.
It was written by a guy named Floramond, Dave Raymond
and a great name. Yeah, and let's names we're just
better back then true, And let's just let's set the
stage there. There's a tale of a woman who is
going to potentially be a witch, right, she's she's in
(08:58):
the recruitment process like that guy at the beginning of
Lost Boys. And so she is taken to a field
out in the wild, and in dur Raymond's account, a mysterious,
specifically Italian man draws this ring with a rod of holly,
he reads a spell.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
From a black book.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And the whole description, by the way, just harps on
the fact that this guy.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Was Italian, and yeah, it's oddly specific, and I quote.
Speaker 8 (09:28):
Thereupon appeared a large horned goat, all black, accompanied by
two women as well as a man dressed as a priest.
The goat asked who this girl was, and when the
Italian man weird replied that he had brought her to
be his, the goat made him make the sign of
the cross with his left hand.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And then he commanded all of them to come and
greet him, which they immediately did. And another odd detail,
kissing his rear, his haunches, his his backside.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Yep, Okay, here's where it gets rough. Remember I am
reading a quotation. Okay, here we go, we can do
this quote. The goat had a lighted black candle between
its two horns, from which the others lit their own candles.
The goat took the woman aside, laid her in the woods,
and carnally knew her.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Wait what is that? I don't understand.
Speaker 6 (10:21):
We're we're just gonna breathe, We're gonna keep going here,
to which she took an extreme displeasure. Okay, obviously suffered
much pain. God, this is horrible, and felt his seat
as cold as ice.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Oh why is it cold? I don't know, it's infernal powers.
I don't understand why it's why it's icy.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Cot Well, maybe because this is like pre Dante's Inferno. Okay,
that's fair, Okay, but that wasn't the culmination of the party.
After that, all the witches began to dance in circles,
their backs turned to one another. The person performing the
service was clothed in a black robe, but he didn't
have a cross. He would raise still an understand this park.
He would raise like a round slice of turnip and
(10:59):
it would be die black. They would use that instead
of the host. And then when he had it at elevation,
he would scream out.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Master, helpots.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
And they put water in the chwelis instead of wine
to make holy water. They had somehow trained this goat
to urinate in a hole in the ground. And honestly,
out of that whole description, the turnip is the most
confusing part to me.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I have a theory a turnip is like a very
pure kind of white. Is the driven snow vegetable, And
when you die it black, it's sort of like a
putrification of purity.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I wonder if they just didn't have a budget, you know,
like if they just found a turnip.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
So in this group, these folks would perform these acts
of witchcraft, and everyone gave a story as to how
the things they were doing were aiding in the infernal
causes of hell.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
Right, this is very important.
Speaker 6 (11:52):
Yeah, yeah, And supposedly they were doing this at least
twice a week and with at least sixty other people
gathered together. So imagine what we just described. Imagine doing
that twice a week.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
It's like Wednesdays and Fridays.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
So serious commitment a building community is really important though,
you know.
Speaker 6 (12:09):
Well yeah, but it also is going to get into
later like why these why these descriptions are you know
there there are a lot of issues with them, so
let's let's just continue going.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
You can't deny that it's spooky stuff though.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
But the idea is if you were imagine you're in
the fifteen hundreds and you've read an account like that,
and maybe perhaps you believe that some of this could
be true. If even a small portion of the stuff
we just described was true, you know, which is conspiring
and doing these evil things, then European Christianity as it
stood as as an institution was basically in deep trouble.
(12:44):
And what could the righteous and upstanding citizens, the institutions,
the governments that are meant to protect those citizens, what
could they do to stand against some something so insidious
and hellish as this.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Well, nowadays we like to say, no one expects the
Spanish Inquisition.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
Right, birds h nerds anybody? No, Okay, it's just a
mony python right.
Speaker 6 (13:05):
I got it.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
But back in the day, the thing is, the Inquisition,
especially the Spanish one, was very much expected because they
were real pills.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
These were dangerous dudes.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Who saw themselves, at least ostensibly as agents of the
divine and they thought their ultimate goal was not just
a root out wickedness, but to save souls. And if
a few bodies had to be broken or a few
people had to be tortured for the greater good. Yeah, Well,
like russ Cole says and true detective, sometimes you need
bad men to keep the other bad men from the door.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
So how did these inquisitions work? Right?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
So, contrary to popular belief, the Inquisition wasn't just created
to hunt down witches.
Speaker 5 (13:43):
It was much broader than that.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Beginning in the twelfth century, the Catholic Church set up
the Office of the Inquisition to punish anyone that was
even remotely speaking out against Catholicism. And they saw it
as heresy, which was literally any religion or belief system
that was not Catholicism.
Speaker 6 (14:02):
Yeah, so they weren't just hunting witches. That's not what
it was about. They were also persecuting, torturing, and murdering
people of other faiths, Muslims, people of Jewish faith. They
were It was the worst manifestation, or let's say, the
worst manifestation of the Inquisition occurred when the Spanish Inquisition
executed over thirty two thousand people over the course of
(14:24):
two hundred years.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
I'm not a math scholar or anything, but those are
those numbers are troubling, I would say.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I mean, so, yeah, they were very much expected, you
know what I mean? Yep, And we also see all
sorts of allegations like what so, no, what were they
actually looking for.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
They were looking for things like well poisonings, poisonings of
the well, which I think is an emo band, which
is a great name, influencing the weather for nefarious purposes,
because that was a big deal.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
I would, you know, wipe out people's crops.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
You blamed the witches, right, There wasn't any meteorology, just
one hundred percent, so why.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Not blame a witch?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Also practicing any sort of thing that could be remotely
considered magic, even innocuous magic, even early medical science, like
healing people with herbs that would get you hanged, or
making prophecies, engaging in any kind of thing that looked
like a ritual that also didn't look super catholic.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Oh oh, I forgot my favorite.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
There was this big thing about people transforming dudes into
horses and riding them around at night.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
It was like a huge.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
Issue as like a punishment. Yeah, that sounds so much fun. Okay,
all right. Anyway, they were also accused of seducing other
members of their community. They were accused of messing with livestock,
making cows milk go bad, or just.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
Hurling inside out like the aliens.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
No, no, it's just bad milk.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
Yeah yeah, or they would just out and out kill them.
They would curse people. Sometimes they'd be accused of murdering
and assassinating people. There there, they were accused of all
kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Okay, okay, so magic aside, what whatever you you may believe,
Did anyone actually do any of these absolutely bonkers things
that we've just laid out.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
So yes, yes, sort of, we're not saying magic works,
but there were real people genuinely doing at least some
of the stuff that witches were accused of doing.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
The problem is.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
The people accused of witchcraft and all these dastardly things.
These people generally just fell into like a few very
much non evil witch necromancer categories. They were like midwives,
traditional healers. I mean, if you think, not to get
too topical, but if you think that healthcare stinks nowadays,
thank your lucky stars you were not alive during the
(16:40):
Middle Ages.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
It was terrible.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Infections ran rampant. Things that can be cured with a
pill nowadays could be a death sentence. Back then, infant
mortality was cartoonishly high, and many women also died in
the process of childbirth. It was a dangerous, dangerous time.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So let's just imagine that your a grieving spouse or
parent who's recently lost a loved one in childbirth. You
know that you're a good Christian spiritually speaking, God has
no reason to smite you or your loved ones. Right,
So someone must have put their proverbial finger on the
proverbial scale, flipping it in a very tragic direction.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Right. So what does that all mean?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Well, it means that your immediate suspect is the midwife, right,
because she's already sort of on the fringes of society.
As you mentioned earlier, she is a practitioner of these
cures that involve herbs and some of these more esoteric remedies. Right,
so if she has the ability to use things to heal,
surely she must also have the ability to use these
(17:41):
things to kill.
Speaker 6 (17:42):
Yeah, So we found something written by Lee Wayley. She
wrote Women in the Practice of Medical Care in Early
Modern Europe, and I'm just going to read a quote
from that to you guys. It says, during the Renaissance,
a number of strategies were taken to eliminate women and
other popular healers from the medical feshion. And this was
the period when medicine and science lost their spiritual dimensions.
(18:06):
So healers as healers magicians and wishes. Wishes lost their
claim to manipulate the spiritual forces of the world. So,
now this is important, right, that that idea that the
spiritual and medicine just were completely divorced from one another,
and no longer can the herbs or anything make me
feel better. It has to be something that a doctor
(18:27):
tells me. And here's why that's important. The exclusion took
two paths. One the new requirement for people practicing medicine
to have a license. And here's the catch. If you
were a woman, you couldn't get the license. It was
almost like they were purposefully or they was as though
they were purposefully creating turning it into a male dominated thing.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So much misogyny wrapped up in all of this stuff
in the way in the Middle Age, Well.
Speaker 6 (18:52):
Yeah, because because women couldn't go to university to get
the training necessary to get that license, so then therefore
they cannot work in that field. And the other thing
here is that if there is a traditional healer, you
could literally just say, oh, well that's a witch.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Yeah it was.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
It sounds silly nowadays, but if you had a problem
with someone, you could just accuse them of being a
witch that flew like people believed it.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
Call them a witch.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Then you just have things, and you have like folks
like seers or other practitioners of fortune telling or the like.
They had a strong connection to the other side, right,
people like you researched this matt Ursula Southhile, also known
as Mother Shipton, and she was believed by many of
her contemporaries in the seventeenth century in England to be
a witch because of her belief that she could foresee
(19:40):
the future things like executions, fires, and plagues.
Speaker 5 (19:44):
She actually predicted.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Or foretold rather that the end of the world would
come in eighteen eighty one, and she.
Speaker 6 (19:50):
Also supposedly predicted the Internet would be a thing.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
No, however, predicts the internet except al Gore kind of
did that.
Speaker 6 (19:58):
Well in the seventeenth century. She was talking about how
one day soon information will just be in the ether,
will be everywhere, which is its Wi Fi?
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Yeah, absolutely, or whatever in cloud.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
So luckily she was not persecuted in the same way
that many women of her ilk were. She was never tortured,
she was not killed, and thankfully the end also did
not come in eighteen eighty one, so she may have
been off the mark on that particular.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Also, like side note, though, how many people predict the
end of the world every year? Like does anybody else
have end of the world fatigue? You know, like I'm
a nineties baby and I can't recall a year that
wasn't supposed to be the last.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
I'm ready for it to happen.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
I don't like that dispoint.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
Wow, sorry, hot take, hot take.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Well we'll finish the show. We'll finish this.
Speaker 6 (20:44):
I genuinely thought it was going to be December twelfth,
I think, or what was it, twenty twelve. Joe Rogan
had a show that night. I thought it was going
to be over.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
He's a witch bro.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Everything was fine, so other people would be.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
As we mentioned before, doctor, there's medical practitioners of some sort,
but also people who were practicing not just the non
Christian religion, but a non Catholic religion.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Because we have to face it.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Despite the best efforts of the Church at the time,
everybody knew Christianity was far from the first religion on
the block, and Catholic churches had sought to subvert, supplant,
and suppress pre existing belief systems. But when you have
a tradition and it's deeply rooted, people are going to
continue to practice it to the best of their abilities,
so they'll just go underground. And these weren't evil beliefs
(21:33):
by any means. These are things like ancestor worship, animist beliefs, polytheism,
and so on. And because the Church, because that clashed
with social control, they conflated all of these practices with
things like sorcery, necromancy, etc.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And then you have the category of folks with legitimate
mental illness. Mental illness or what is today referred to
as a neuroatypical behavior existed during that time as well.
Of course, in some cases, folks with mental illness or
cognitive conditions might have actually been considered blessed by God
are capable.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
Of receiving visions from on high.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I don't know if anyone's seen Mid Summar, but one
of the characters that sort of is the village seer,
is someone that clearly has a condition of this sort.
But then it would there would be the flip side
of it, right where that was much more prevalent, absolutely, yeah, no,
And then there'd be the flip side of it where
they were absolutely victimized and used as scapegoats because it
was an easy way to say which devil.
Speaker 6 (22:32):
Yeah, speaking of scapegoats, this has been a running theme
of this entire episode. Another group of people who were
victimized were vulnerable members of society, like widows, the disabled.
And again, what's the main thing you've been hearing probably
that's just been kind of hitting the back of your
head is the misogyny that was involved in all of
(22:54):
this stuff. In fact, the largest demographic of people persecuted
for witchcraft were actually elderly women, and a lot of
that had to do with well, there's a lot of
it that had to do with misogyny just at large.
But hold on a second. We were talking about the individuals, right,
We're talking about each individual person, what their role was,
why they were persecuted. But what about the whole idea
(23:17):
of them getting together and working together?
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Right?
Speaker 7 (23:19):
Yes, so we did stereotypes of witches and we just
busted that, hopefully, right, hopefully so I think we did.
And we did stereotypes of covens. Yes, well, what were
real covens? See, that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
History is funny, and history is a lot more dynamic
than people would sometimes have us believe. History is a conversation, Right,
William Faulkner said, the past isn't over, it's not even past.
And what we look at when we dig into covens
and the concept of covens is that the idea that
a coven was a name for a group of witches
came way, way, way afterward after any of these events.
(23:54):
The word coven first came around sometime in fifteen twenty
so there had already been witch hunts, and it wasn't
used to describe meetings of witches until a trial in
sixteen sixty two for a woman named Isabelle Goudi.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Before then, it was just like meet up.
Speaker 6 (24:12):
Yeah, it was just a hangout.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
And it wasn't until nineteen twenty one that that term
became popularly associated with the gatherings specifically of witches. And
this association was made within an author, Margaret Murray's work,
The Witch Cult in Western Europe. I love that title,
and yes, oh me too, And this work also helped
solidify there's a common idea that within a coven there
would be thirteen members, exactly thirteen members, and there are
(24:37):
some accounts that say that's twelve actual what you would
call witches, as well as either a leader or the
devil or deity themselves. So you'd have actually like twelve
apostles and then one leader or one deity, right.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And Murray actually believed that having twelve witches was a
mockery of Jesus's twelve disciples. And while it's true that
the number thirty teen does hold significance within certain wick
and belief systems, the number of members of a coven
was generally not a requirement. There was no hard and
fast rule. But we have also found several modern covens
(25:13):
that do only allow thirteen members. So why did people
bother hunting witches in the first place? I think partially
it was because they genuinely believed they were doing God's work,
fighting the infernal and insidious forces of hell, of darkness.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Yes, yeah, that's what it said on the label. Sure,
but there's a dirty truth to this.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
You see, the way the laws usually worked said that
if someone was convicted of witchcraft, whomever they were, the
person who convicted them got their possessions, all of their
worldly possessions, like, good job you. And this means that
in many cases witch hunters were working on commission.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
Basically that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, so like you have some bills to pay, you're
a witch hunter, you probably have three or four victims
picked out. And now you know, Fortunately for history, for anthropology,
for science, for humanity at large, these inquisitions and these
other persecution programs did not wipe out every non Catholic religion,
and you can still find modern groups identify as covens
(26:21):
or witches or pagans of some sort today.
Speaker 6 (26:31):
So let's get a little bit closer to modern day
and talk about witchcraft occurring right now. We've got some
further examples a little bit further down here, but we
do know that a lot of groups within the United
States and across the whole world practice a range of religions.
If you're imagining witchcraft is one thing, you are just
dead wrong, because it's there's so many different belief systems
(26:53):
that can be or that are commonly described in that way,
and it's all stuff that might even fit the old
Catholic definition of witchcraft, even though it is not that.
We also know that some of the most historically prominent
versions of a coven or witchcraft group, such as this guy,
Gerald Gardner's New Forest Coven, they have been soundly debunked
(27:17):
by research that's occurred in the modern day.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
And later research it does continue into the modern day.
So let's think about the adventures of an American anthropologist
by the name of TM Lherman. In nineteen eighty five,
TM Luhrman moved to London and kind of embedded herself
in what you could consider a contemporary British form of
witchcraft and magic, which is very much still around today,
(27:41):
and she asked herself, why would anyone take up the
practice of magic, something as weird as magic, especially since,
according to observers that she interviewed, it doesn't necessarily work.
So to find out, she attended hundreds of secret meetings
and this is a from an article from The New
York Times reviewing a work that she did called Covens
(28:04):
and Chaos Groups. She enacted dozens of rituals, and she
actually wrote some herself, which kind of shows you how
open ended improv Yeah, it's absolutely improv As she read
tarot card, she sewed her own magic robes. She even
would ingest psychotropic substances to get into some sort of
fugue like reverie state, the type that the Druids would
(28:28):
have put themselves into in order to conduct their magic.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Right, yeah, allegedly allegedly.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
And one of the main things she discovered that was
occurring within a lot of these groups was cognitive dissonance.
This this idea that the people who were, you know,
magicians in witches, the people that she was associating with,
often remembered their magical successes. So if they're going to
do a ritual or something, they remember that time. Then
something kind of worked out a little bit better than
(28:54):
the failures. The ones were absolutely nothing occurred, and the
definition of success ended up becoming so broad and subjective.
And it's just that you realize, or she realized that
there was a lot of generous interpretation that was occurring
within the group and within the with the individuals.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, solely for comparison. Some of us probably work with
metrics and things in our day jobs. Right, we have
a way to measure success. This this way of measuring
success was a lot less like, uh, let's look at
the facts, and a lot more like, well, I did
a ritual with water yesterday, and uh I saw some
water the next day, so boom.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
You know.
Speaker 6 (29:35):
But it's also not to completely discount it, right, That's
not what we're saying. We're just we're just saying it
was easier to believe it if you were within the
group and you had those beliefs already.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
That's the same way when you you know, design an
algorithm and you say this is the end all be
all of something, there's somebody else that says, no, mine,
mine is the end all be all. It's the same
with anything when you interpret data and information. It's a
lot of it is kind of happenstance, and it's hard
to know exactly which one is the right answer, right.
Speaker 6 (30:03):
Yeah, Yeah, here's the thing. Okay, so we're talking about
a specific version of witchcraft. But it is very very
important to note here that there are still human beings
across the planet right now in some very particular areas
that are being accused of witchcraft still and they are
being hunted for that reason.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
And are these are isolated cases, but it's true. Again,
we're not saying magic works, but there are more people
than you might believe who are practicing what they would
call this left hand magic stuff. Let's talk about something
I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but
narco cults. Right, we know what cartels are, we know
(30:44):
what the narcos are, Right, there are actual narco cults.
There was this sort of black magic that was happening
in Mexico, and we wanted to give you a specific
case of this. In nineteen eighty nine, Mexican authorities stumbled
across a genuine human sacrifice cult that was related to
(31:05):
the drug cartels.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
They were led by a guy.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Named Adolfo Costanzo, who was only twenty six.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
By the way, he's a cult leader at twenty six.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
That's pretty good.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
Yeah, I mean kind of.
Speaker 5 (31:17):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
I mean it wasn't a good cult though.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
As the thing, Oh okay, it wasn't like a friendly
mister Rogers type.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I'm just saying, I'm thirty six and I feel you.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yet I fell asleep trying to put on my pants once,
so like this this thing is, this is weird. He
and his followers were called the Narco Satanists. They committed
multiple acts of human sacrifice, adopted from non Satanic Caribbean
religions up to and including cannibalism, because they thought it
(31:47):
would render them invisible, invincible, immune to bullets, and they
you know, we have to ask did they really believe this?
The answer I would argue is yes, because they were
killing people. They were literally wearing necks plats of human
vertebrate when authorities caught them.
Speaker 6 (32:03):
You go through, they have to have believed it.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I think at least this all goes down to the
power of belief for sure. And they were eventually caught,
thank god, during an investigation into the death of an
American by the name of Mark Kilroy, who is one
of their final victims. So at least at the end
their covens, magic didn't didn't just save them from being
found out. And it turns out that magic motivated murders
(32:28):
are popular across the entire globe. You've got areas of
South Asia, some parts of Europe, the Middle East, and
several African countries where people are genuinely absolutely being murdered
for perceived reasons that are magical related.
Speaker 6 (32:43):
Yeah. I think we're all familiar with albinism or you know,
being in albino. A lot of people with who suffer
from albinism are hunted in places like Tanzania and MALOWI
are sorry, how do you say it? Malawi?
Speaker 5 (32:58):
Malawi?
Speaker 6 (32:59):
They are They're murdered because their organs are being harvested
for magical purposes. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.
Their hair and their body parts where a lot of
times or throughout history the subject of folklore of magical interest,
specifically in those regions, but recently they've been touted as
a crucial component of any sure fire potion making. So
(33:23):
if there's some witch doctor a in a tribe somewhere
and they want to make a potion. They will seek
out this stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Money, wealth, power, true love, you know, all the all
the basic ones. And in Saudi Arabia and in the
Islamic State, multiple people have been executed, like very recently
for the crime the perceived crime of witchcraft.
Speaker 6 (33:49):
Now, now, okay, we've been yeah, we've been going over
all the historical stuff, the scary stuff. Let's let's talk
about if you're going to go out right now and
try and find a coven here in Manhattan. Uh, here's
the cool thing. You can do it, and they exist,
and you can actually probably go to a greeting or
to a gathering. You could probably if it's a full
(34:10):
moon or a new moon, you can go right now.
There's a website. If you aim your browser at witch
vox w I T C h v o x dot
com you can find all of the locally or a
lot of at least the locally run covens, clans and coves.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
You got an example for us, I do.
Speaker 6 (34:27):
Do you wanna? Can you go over it a little
where I can tell you, Yeah, it's called hecate. That's
one way to say it's other hecat is another way
to pronounce it. But Hecate's Sacred Temple Torchbearer of the Crossroads.
This is self described as a group of those who
are devotees or followers of the goddess Hecate that wish
to belong to a temple that honors and worships her.
(34:48):
And uh, who is.
Speaker 7 (34:49):
Hecataeu It's the It's the Greek goddess right, Yeah, it's
the ancient Greek Hecata, as described on wicca spiritually dot
com as the goddess of all doors, gates all transitions
from one place to another or state of being, and
the original hedge sitter, the hag, the hex mistress.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
I'm a fan of people with multiple superlatives like that.
Speaker 6 (35:11):
Yeah, she's described as like the queen of witches in
a lot of places.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Sure, And this particular group, Hackate's Sacred Temple offers classes
and other opportunities for the curious to learn about their
organization and believe. I don't want to downplay anything, but
it almost feels more like a community group or like
a like a nice kind of like knitting circle or
something more than it is some sort of like devil worship,
be sacrificing.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
It's like a rotarian vibe or something.
Speaker 6 (35:38):
That's the whole point. It's it's a place for people
to hang out and worship the way they want to worship.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, that's that's what I don't want to skip. There
are modern witches, there are modern covens. None of them
are out to get you. None probably just want to
hang out.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
With really quickly, I just met somebody a little while.
I'm not going to out anybody, but it was.
Speaker 5 (35:54):
Like, Yeah, I had a coworker who was a witch.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
She was super cool.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
I loved hearing the story about her beliefs. Didn't like
her as a person kind.
Speaker 4 (36:02):
Of because we met them.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
We all met we absolutely, yeah, but had nothing to
do with the belief system more just kind of a
creepy person.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (36:14):
But my hairdresser who just moved away. Sadly, you have
a hairdresser or a salon person, a person who does
my hair. She's amazing, she's she's waking, and she just
moves away and im and I'm just so sad. But she, Uh,
she was incredible because she could touch my head and
then tell me things about my son's life.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
Oh weird, dude, do you think she just looked on
your Facebook? I mean I'm not trying to be rude.
Speaker 6 (36:37):
That probably so, but but it is true.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
People tend to just be people, and that's like, maybe
maybe that's a disappointing spoiler for some folks, But the
vast majority of ancient witches and covens, just like the
vast majority of the ones around today, they were not
after you either. You know, the more we dig into
this question, the more apparent it becomes that the allegations
of some vast, shadowy conspiracy of individuals in league with
(37:04):
infernal powers, we're just not true. They there may have been,
and they're likely were isolated groups of people in communities
practicing pre Christian spiritual traditions, but they weren't out.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
To like take over the world for Satan.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
And I know that's gonna be kind of rough news
for some heavy metal fans out there.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
I'm sad personally sad about Yeah.
Speaker 6 (37:24):
I mean, it's a bummer, but it's true portsinacious d.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
So you know, there you have it. There.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
There really are real, real life witches and real life
groups identifying themselves as covens. But as Ben said, the
vast majority are harmless practitioners of spiritual beliefs that they
hold deep and deer, and they're certainly not not out
to get you.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Yeah, or are they?
Speaker 5 (37:49):
I think they're I think they're probably not.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
Yeah, they're probably not. But that is our show.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Thank you so much for coming, everybody. We hope that
you enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
We ho o.
Speaker 6 (38:02):
Alright, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
Thank you Coddle, thanks to Paul, thanks to you, thanks to.
Speaker 5 (38:08):
You, Bag, thank you.
Speaker 6 (38:27):
Stuff They Don't Want You to Know is a production
of Iheartradios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Fellow conspiracy realists. We are returning to you from far
away with some classic episodes that we think you will
really enjoy. Sometimes will air interviews, sometimes will air full episodes,
and sometimes we'll be able to do something really special,
like share a previous exploration we had a long time ago, Noel,
(00:23):
we were on the road, we were going live. Once
upon a time we talked about real life covet.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Oh, that's right, this is a live show, and we're
all familiar with the spooky stereotypical witches that are depicted
in films like the Vivivich in fiction and folklore, etc.
But what does that look like in the real world?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
How much sand is there to those historic descriptions of
you know, pointy hats writing brooms through the sky. How
much of that is Hollywood? How much of that is
ancient folklore? How much of that, along with reporting of
infernal black masses and so on, was nothing more than
a hit piece. This is the question we answer in
(01:03):
this live show.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Special Halloween episode Live from the iHeart Offices in New
York set.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Oh that's where it was. Yes, that's correct, So get
spoopy with us.
Speaker 5 (01:12):
Indeed, let's roll it.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
Hello, everyone, welcome to the pre show introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, the sort of the lobby or the foyer to
the actual show.
Speaker 6 (01:47):
Yes, I'm glad we have that door opening and the
you know, the beginning, the ding dong doorbell, just let
you know you're walking into the foyer.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Now the proper word is doorbell, not the ding dong
ding dong.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Six there second.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, it's true, it's true. The three of us recently
went to New York City, just like you've heard about
in the salty commercials, and we did an episode on
real life covens.
Speaker 6 (02:14):
Yeah, it's looking at the history of really what a
witch is, what it you know, what it is in
popular culture, How it's how the concept has been viewed
over the centuries, as well as what an actual group
of people who would be who would consider themselves to
be witches, how they function together.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, and this was something we were asked to do
at our home offices at iHeart Media headquarters in Midtown New.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
York and it was a pretty tight little affair.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I think we did about thirty five minutes on the
subject and then we're.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
Out to light bites and cocktails and schmoosery. And it
was a very nice evening.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
And we had a lovely intro by a friend of
the show, ConL Byrne, which you will not hear, but
it was.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
It was nice, filthy, It was filthy but glowing.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, like Bob Saget's stand up set. Yeah, we were
very excited about this. We wanted to share it with you.
Speaker 7 (03:11):
We also want you to know that we did this,
of course, right before Halloween, so you're us hyping up.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
The Halloween that was passed. So travel back there with
us and let us determine between fiction and fact, which
which is the most accurate?
Speaker 6 (03:29):
Yes, and Ben is right, your calendars are correct. It
is not Halloween. But but let's let's have some how
about some early nostalgia for Halloween twenty nineteen.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
I can't wait without further ado.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Here we go.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
Hello, Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
They call me Ben.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
That's our super producer, Paul mission controlled Decan on the
figure of ones and twos. Give it up for him.
But most importantly, you are here. You are you, and
that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know.
Live at iHeart headquarters here in New York.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
So give it up for yourself.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
Yes, yeah, we are in fact recording this. This will
be a real episode of the show.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So you are part of podcast history, or at least
part of our podcast feed.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Right, So you're sort of you're all co host with
us tonight, and we're standing in a.
Speaker 6 (04:20):
Very surreal place that most of you just think is
normal now, but it most certainly is not.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
There's like a hologram in the hallway, they change.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
The lights, there's a smoke machine in the conference room
that we've been posted up at, and lasers.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
It's bonkers.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Yeah, we almost just stayed and played with that.
Speaker 8 (04:36):
This.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
As you're hearing this out there in podcast lands, it
is almost Halloween, one of the very most wonderful times
of the year, according to us at least, right, you know,
we've got a cavalcade of potential monsters that are going
to be strolling the streets. We think of vampires, right,
we think of were wolves, and of course we think
of witches.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
Now, modern science has pretty much conclusively proven that vampires
and werewolves didn't exist, at least in the way that
we popularly think about them or the way we imagine
them and portray them. However, witches are a little bit different.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
So what is this stereotypical kind of type of witch
that we think of, Where does it come from? And
most importantly, are any of those strange stories actually true?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
So we have to start addressing that question the way
we always start addressing any question witches, sorry, which is
with the facts. So here are the facts. It's fair
to say that we're all pretty familiar with at least
the stereotype of the Western European witch, right, we know
the traditional witch and film fiction folklore. They'll typically be
(05:45):
a woman, they're often older. They've got for some reason,
a wide brimmed, pointy hat.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, they might have warts or like weird green skin
like in the Wizard of Oz, or some kind of
at least jaundice appearance or whatever.
Speaker 5 (05:57):
And they've got talent.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Like nails, very goth dark clothing, they have wicked cackles,
and after all that, they might fly through the sky,
usually with the aid of some sort of household appliance,
like a like a broom or a mortar and pestle,
or to modernize it, maybe a vacuum cleaners.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
I don't know, says us. A lot only.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
Also a lot of times we'll have a demonic sidekick
called a familiar, which is, you know, a rat and
an owl or something to that effect, maybe a cat.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, we should note the stereotype of familiars in Europe
came about before Europeans knew what chihuahuas are. Those are
the most demonic of household pets. I'm sorry, I wait,
some enemies.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, I think they look like evil little blueberry muffins
with their weird, dead black eyes. It's absolutely while you
were shivering unclear, it's a different it's a different episode,
is what it is.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
But okay, so we're talking so that's a witch singular individual.
But what happens when we get to the idea of
a group of witches? Yeah?
Speaker 6 (06:58):
Yeah, So according to these stories, very seldom would you
see a witch who was acting alone. A lot of
times you'd see them colluding and conspiring with like minded
other practitioners of sorcery. In these things that were called
and are called covens, at least within the popular culture.
And these were secretive groups that would meet together to
you know, worship a certain deity or an evil entity
(07:21):
or and a lot of times try and make the
infernal powers that exist within that realm happen on the
mortal plane.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And as secretive groups tend to do, they would meet
in secretive places like old standing stones in the woods, cemeteries,
ancient sites outside of town, abandoned buildings, and cellars, and
covens witches were engaged in perverse mockeries or parodies of
religious rights, Christian rights specifically. The most famous coven right
(07:51):
was something that's called the black mass.
Speaker 5 (07:54):
Yeah, yeah, come on, yeah.
Speaker 6 (07:56):
It all sounds scary. And as we're going through here,
we're gonna we're kind of weaving this tale right of
what this stuff was like or what the way we
think about it right.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
Reception for sure.
Speaker 6 (08:05):
So we're getting into a tale now that's not for
the faint of heart.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
True. Oh yeah, we should have said that at the top.
But these are adults. I think we're.
Speaker 6 (08:14):
Fine, We're going to we can handle this together. Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
So the descriptions of black masses, this was a popular
scary news story of the day, right, and we have
found genuine descriptions, or what purport to be genuine descriptions
of a black mass. One in particular that spoke to
us was from a book written in fifteen ninety seven.
(08:37):
It was called, in a burst of creativity, the Antichrist.
It was written by a guy named Floramond, Dave Raymond
and a great name. Yeah, and let's names we're just
better back then true, And let's just let's set the
stage there. There's a tale of a woman who is
going to potentially be a witch, right, she's she's in
(08:58):
the recruitment process like that guy at the beginning of
Lost Boys. And so she is taken to a field
out in the wild, and in dur Raymond's account, a mysterious,
specifically Italian man draws this ring with a rod of holly,
he reads a spell.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
From a black book.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And the whole description, by the way, just harps on
the fact that this guy.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Was Italian, and yeah, it's oddly specific, and I quote.
Speaker 8 (09:28):
Thereupon appeared a large horned goat, all black, accompanied by
two women as well as a man dressed as a priest.
The goat asked who this girl was, and when the
Italian man weird replied that he had brought her to
be his, the goat made him make the sign of
the cross with his left hand.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And then he commanded all of them to come and
greet him, which they immediately did. And another odd detail,
kissing his rear, his haunches, his his backside.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Yep, Okay, here's where it gets rough. Remember I am
reading a quotation. Okay, here we go, we can do
this quote. The goat had a lighted black candle between
its two horns, from which the others lit their own candles.
The goat took the woman aside, laid her in the woods,
and carnally knew her.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Wait what is that? I don't understand.
Speaker 6 (10:21):
We're we're just gonna breathe, We're gonna keep going here,
to which she took an extreme displeasure. Okay, obviously suffered
much pain. God, this is horrible, and felt his seat
as cold as ice.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Oh why is it cold? I don't know, it's infernal powers.
I don't understand why it's why it's icy.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Cot Well, maybe because this is like pre Dante's Inferno. Okay,
that's fair, Okay, but that wasn't the culmination of the party.
After that, all the witches began to dance in circles,
their backs turned to one another. The person performing the
service was clothed in a black robe, but he didn't
have a cross. He would raise still an understand this park.
He would raise like a round slice of turnip and
(10:59):
it would be die black. They would use that instead
of the host. And then when he had it at elevation,
he would scream out.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Master, helpots.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
And they put water in the chwelis instead of wine
to make holy water. They had somehow trained this goat
to urinate in a hole in the ground. And honestly,
out of that whole description, the turnip is the most
confusing part to me.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I have a theory a turnip is like a very
pure kind of white. Is the driven snow vegetable, And
when you die it black, it's sort of like a
putrification of purity.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I wonder if they just didn't have a budget, you know,
like if they just found a turnip.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
So in this group, these folks would perform these acts
of witchcraft, and everyone gave a story as to how
the things they were doing were aiding in the infernal
causes of hell.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
Right, this is very important.
Speaker 6 (11:52):
Yeah, yeah, And supposedly they were doing this at least
twice a week and with at least sixty other people
gathered together. So imagine what we just described. Imagine doing
that twice a week.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
It's like Wednesdays and Fridays.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
So serious commitment a building community is really important though,
you know.
Speaker 6 (12:09):
Well yeah, but it also is going to get into
later like why these why these descriptions are you know
there there are a lot of issues with them, so
let's let's just continue going.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
You can't deny that it's spooky stuff though.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
But the idea is if you were imagine you're in
the fifteen hundreds and you've read an account like that,
and maybe perhaps you believe that some of this could
be true. If even a small portion of the stuff
we just described was true, you know, which is conspiring
and doing these evil things, then European Christianity as it
stood as as an institution was basically in deep trouble.
(12:44):
And what could the righteous and upstanding citizens, the institutions,
the governments that are meant to protect those citizens, what
could they do to stand against some something so insidious
and hellish as this.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Well, nowadays we like to say, no one expects the
Spanish Inquisition.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
Right, birds h nerds anybody? No, Okay, it's just a
mony python right.
Speaker 6 (13:05):
I got it.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
But back in the day, the thing is, the Inquisition,
especially the Spanish one, was very much expected because they
were real pills.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
These were dangerous dudes.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Who saw themselves, at least ostensibly as agents of the
divine and they thought their ultimate goal was not just
a root out wickedness, but to save souls. And if
a few bodies had to be broken or a few
people had to be tortured for the greater good. Yeah, Well,
like russ Cole says and true detective, sometimes you need
bad men to keep the other bad men from the door.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
So how did these inquisitions work? Right?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
So, contrary to popular belief, the Inquisition wasn't just created
to hunt down witches.
Speaker 5 (13:43):
It was much broader than that.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Beginning in the twelfth century, the Catholic Church set up
the Office of the Inquisition to punish anyone that was
even remotely speaking out against Catholicism. And they saw it
as heresy, which was literally any religion or belief system
that was not Catholicism.
Speaker 6 (14:02):
Yeah, so they weren't just hunting witches. That's not what
it was about. They were also persecuting, torturing, and murdering
people of other faiths, Muslims, people of Jewish faith. They
were It was the worst manifestation, or let's say, the
worst manifestation of the Inquisition occurred when the Spanish Inquisition
executed over thirty two thousand people over the course of
(14:24):
two hundred years.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
I'm not a math scholar or anything, but those are
those numbers are troubling, I would say.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I mean, so, yeah, they were very much expected, you
know what I mean? Yep, And we also see all
sorts of allegations like what so, no, what were they
actually looking for.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
They were looking for things like well poisonings, poisonings of
the well, which I think is an emo band, which
is a great name, influencing the weather for nefarious purposes,
because that was a big deal.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
I would, you know, wipe out people's crops.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
You blamed the witches, right, There wasn't any meteorology, just
one hundred percent, so why.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Not blame a witch?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Also practicing any sort of thing that could be remotely
considered magic, even innocuous magic, even early medical science, like
healing people with herbs that would get you hanged, or
making prophecies, engaging in any kind of thing that looked
like a ritual that also didn't look super catholic.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Oh oh, I forgot my favorite.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
There was this big thing about people transforming dudes into
horses and riding them around at night.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
It was like a huge.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
Issue as like a punishment. Yeah, that sounds so much fun. Okay,
all right. Anyway, they were also accused of seducing other
members of their community. They were accused of messing with livestock,
making cows milk go bad, or just.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
Hurling inside out like the aliens.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
No, no, it's just bad milk.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
Yeah yeah, or they would just out and out kill them.
They would curse people. Sometimes they'd be accused of murdering
and assassinating people. There there, they were accused of all
kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Okay, okay, so magic aside, what whatever you you may believe,
Did anyone actually do any of these absolutely bonkers things
that we've just laid out.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
So yes, yes, sort of, we're not saying magic works,
but there were real people genuinely doing at least some
of the stuff that witches were accused of doing.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
The problem is.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
The people accused of witchcraft and all these dastardly things.
These people generally just fell into like a few very
much non evil witch necromancer categories. They were like midwives,
traditional healers. I mean, if you think, not to get
too topical, but if you think that healthcare stinks nowadays,
thank your lucky stars you were not alive during the
(16:40):
Middle Ages.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
It was terrible.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Infections ran rampant. Things that can be cured with a
pill nowadays could be a death sentence. Back then, infant
mortality was cartoonishly high, and many women also died in
the process of childbirth. It was a dangerous, dangerous time.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So let's just imagine that your a grieving spouse or
parent who's recently lost a loved one in childbirth. You
know that you're a good Christian spiritually speaking, God has
no reason to smite you or your loved ones. Right,
So someone must have put their proverbial finger on the
proverbial scale, flipping it in a very tragic direction.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Right. So what does that all mean?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Well, it means that your immediate suspect is the midwife, right,
because she's already sort of on the fringes of society.
As you mentioned earlier, she is a practitioner of these
cures that involve herbs and some of these more esoteric remedies. Right,
so if she has the ability to use things to heal,
surely she must also have the ability to use these
(17:41):
things to kill.
Speaker 6 (17:42):
Yeah, So we found something written by Lee Wayley. She
wrote Women in the Practice of Medical Care in Early
Modern Europe, and I'm just going to read a quote
from that to you guys. It says, during the Renaissance,
a number of strategies were taken to eliminate women and
other popular healers from the medical feshion. And this was
the period when medicine and science lost their spiritual dimensions.
(18:06):
So healers as healers magicians and wishes. Wishes lost their
claim to manipulate the spiritual forces of the world. So,
now this is important, right, that that idea that the
spiritual and medicine just were completely divorced from one another,
and no longer can the herbs or anything make me
feel better. It has to be something that a doctor
(18:27):
tells me. And here's why that's important. The exclusion took
two paths. One the new requirement for people practicing medicine
to have a license. And here's the catch. If you
were a woman, you couldn't get the license. It was
almost like they were purposefully or they was as though
they were purposefully creating turning it into a male dominated thing.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So much misogyny wrapped up in all of this stuff
in the way in the Middle Age, Well.
Speaker 6 (18:52):
Yeah, because because women couldn't go to university to get
the training necessary to get that license, so then therefore
they cannot work in that field. And the other thing
here is that if there is a traditional healer, you
could literally just say, oh, well that's a witch.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Yeah it was.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
It sounds silly nowadays, but if you had a problem
with someone, you could just accuse them of being a
witch that flew like people believed it.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
Call them a witch.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Then you just have things, and you have like folks
like seers or other practitioners of fortune telling or the like.
They had a strong connection to the other side, right,
people like you researched this matt Ursula Southhile, also known
as Mother Shipton, and she was believed by many of
her contemporaries in the seventeenth century in England to be
a witch because of her belief that she could foresee
(19:40):
the future things like executions, fires, and plagues.
Speaker 5 (19:44):
She actually predicted.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Or foretold rather that the end of the world would
come in eighteen eighty one, and she.
Speaker 6 (19:50):
Also supposedly predicted the Internet would be a thing.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
No, however, predicts the internet except al Gore kind of
did that.
Speaker 6 (19:58):
Well in the seventeenth century. She was talking about how
one day soon information will just be in the ether,
will be everywhere, which is its Wi Fi?
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Yeah, absolutely, or whatever in cloud.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
So luckily she was not persecuted in the same way
that many women of her ilk were. She was never tortured,
she was not killed, and thankfully the end also did
not come in eighteen eighty one, so she may have
been off the mark on that particular.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Also, like side note, though, how many people predict the
end of the world every year? Like does anybody else
have end of the world fatigue? You know, like I'm
a nineties baby and I can't recall a year that
wasn't supposed to be the last.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
I'm ready for it to happen.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
I don't like that dispoint.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
Wow, sorry, hot take, hot take.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Well we'll finish the show. We'll finish this.
Speaker 6 (20:44):
I genuinely thought it was going to be December twelfth,
I think, or what was it, twenty twelve. Joe Rogan
had a show that night. I thought it was going
to be over.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
He's a witch bro.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Everything was fine, so other people would be.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
As we mentioned before, doctor, there's medical practitioners of some sort,
but also people who were practicing not just the non
Christian religion, but a non Catholic religion.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Because we have to face it.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Despite the best efforts of the Church at the time,
everybody knew Christianity was far from the first religion on
the block, and Catholic churches had sought to subvert, supplant,
and suppress pre existing belief systems. But when you have
a tradition and it's deeply rooted, people are going to
continue to practice it to the best of their abilities,
so they'll just go underground. And these weren't evil beliefs
(21:33):
by any means. These are things like ancestor worship, animist beliefs, polytheism,
and so on. And because the Church, because that clashed
with social control, they conflated all of these practices with
things like sorcery, necromancy, etc.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And then you have the category of folks with legitimate
mental illness. Mental illness or what is today referred to
as a neuroatypical behavior existed during that time as well.
Of course, in some cases, folks with mental illness or
cognitive conditions might have actually been considered blessed by God
are capable.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
Of receiving visions from on high.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I don't know if anyone's seen Mid Summar, but one
of the characters that sort of is the village seer,
is someone that clearly has a condition of this sort.
But then it would there would be the flip side
of it, right where that was much more prevalent, absolutely, yeah, no,
And then there'd be the flip side of it where
they were absolutely victimized and used as scapegoats because it
was an easy way to say which devil.
Speaker 6 (22:32):
Yeah, speaking of scapegoats, this has been a running theme
of this entire episode. Another group of people who were
victimized were vulnerable members of society, like widows, the disabled.
And again, what's the main thing you've been hearing probably
that's just been kind of hitting the back of your
head is the misogyny that was involved in all of
(22:54):
this stuff. In fact, the largest demographic of people persecuted
for witchcraft were actually elderly women, and a lot of
that had to do with well, there's a lot of
it that had to do with misogyny just at large.
But hold on a second. We were talking about the individuals, right,
We're talking about each individual person, what their role was,
why they were persecuted. But what about the whole idea
(23:17):
of them getting together and working together?
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Right?
Speaker 7 (23:19):
Yes, so we did stereotypes of witches and we just
busted that, hopefully, right, hopefully so I think we did.
And we did stereotypes of covens. Yes, well, what were
real covens? See, that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
History is funny, and history is a lot more dynamic
than people would sometimes have us believe. History is a conversation, Right,
William Faulkner said, the past isn't over, it's not even past.
And what we look at when we dig into covens
and the concept of covens is that the idea that
a coven was a name for a group of witches
came way, way, way afterward after any of these events.
(23:54):
The word coven first came around sometime in fifteen twenty
so there had already been witch hunts, and it wasn't
used to describe meetings of witches until a trial in
sixteen sixty two for a woman named Isabelle Goudi.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Before then, it was just like meet up.
Speaker 6 (24:12):
Yeah, it was just a hangout.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
And it wasn't until nineteen twenty one that that term
became popularly associated with the gatherings specifically of witches. And
this association was made within an author, Margaret Murray's work,
The Witch Cult in Western Europe. I love that title,
and yes, oh me too, And this work also helped
solidify there's a common idea that within a coven there
would be thirteen members, exactly thirteen members, and there are
(24:37):
some accounts that say that's twelve actual what you would
call witches, as well as either a leader or the
devil or deity themselves. So you'd have actually like twelve
apostles and then one leader or one deity, right.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And Murray actually believed that having twelve witches was a
mockery of Jesus's twelve disciples. And while it's true that
the number thirty teen does hold significance within certain wick
and belief systems, the number of members of a coven
was generally not a requirement. There was no hard and
fast rule. But we have also found several modern covens
(25:13):
that do only allow thirteen members. So why did people
bother hunting witches in the first place? I think partially
it was because they genuinely believed they were doing God's work,
fighting the infernal and insidious forces of hell, of darkness.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Yes, yeah, that's what it said on the label. Sure,
but there's a dirty truth to this.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
You see, the way the laws usually worked said that
if someone was convicted of witchcraft, whomever they were, the
person who convicted them got their possessions, all of their
worldly possessions, like, good job you. And this means that
in many cases witch hunters were working on commission.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
Basically that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, so like you have some bills to pay, you're
a witch hunter, you probably have three or four victims
picked out. And now you know, Fortunately for history, for anthropology,
for science, for humanity at large, these inquisitions and these
other persecution programs did not wipe out every non Catholic religion,
and you can still find modern groups identify as covens
(26:21):
or witches or pagans of some sort today.
Speaker 6 (26:31):
So let's get a little bit closer to modern day
and talk about witchcraft occurring right now. We've got some
further examples a little bit further down here, but we
do know that a lot of groups within the United
States and across the whole world practice a range of religions.
If you're imagining witchcraft is one thing, you are just
dead wrong, because it's there's so many different belief systems
(26:53):
that can be or that are commonly described in that way,
and it's all stuff that might even fit the old
Catholic definition of witchcraft, even though it is not that.
We also know that some of the most historically prominent
versions of a coven or witchcraft group, such as this guy,
Gerald Gardner's New Forest Coven, they have been soundly debunked
(27:17):
by research that's occurred in the modern day.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
And later research it does continue into the modern day.
So let's think about the adventures of an American anthropologist
by the name of TM Lherman. In nineteen eighty five,
TM Luhrman moved to London and kind of embedded herself
in what you could consider a contemporary British form of
witchcraft and magic, which is very much still around today,
(27:41):
and she asked herself, why would anyone take up the
practice of magic, something as weird as magic, especially since,
according to observers that she interviewed, it doesn't necessarily work.
So to find out, she attended hundreds of secret meetings
and this is a from an article from The New
York Times reviewing a work that she did called Covens
(28:04):
and Chaos Groups. She enacted dozens of rituals, and she
actually wrote some herself, which kind of shows you how
open ended improv Yeah, it's absolutely improv As she read
tarot card, she sewed her own magic robes. She even
would ingest psychotropic substances to get into some sort of
fugue like reverie state, the type that the Druids would
(28:28):
have put themselves into in order to conduct their magic.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Right, yeah, allegedly allegedly.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
And one of the main things she discovered that was
occurring within a lot of these groups was cognitive dissonance.
This this idea that the people who were, you know,
magicians in witches, the people that she was associating with,
often remembered their magical successes. So if they're going to
do a ritual or something, they remember that time. Then
something kind of worked out a little bit better than
(28:54):
the failures. The ones were absolutely nothing occurred, and the
definition of success ended up becoming so broad and subjective.
And it's just that you realize, or she realized that
there was a lot of generous interpretation that was occurring
within the group and within the with the individuals.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, solely for comparison. Some of us probably work with
metrics and things in our day jobs. Right, we have
a way to measure success. This this way of measuring
success was a lot less like, uh, let's look at
the facts, and a lot more like, well, I did
a ritual with water yesterday, and uh I saw some
water the next day, so boom.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
You know.
Speaker 6 (29:35):
But it's also not to completely discount it, right, That's
not what we're saying. We're just we're just saying it
was easier to believe it if you were within the
group and you had those beliefs already.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
That's the same way when you you know, design an
algorithm and you say this is the end all be
all of something, there's somebody else that says, no, mine,
mine is the end all be all. It's the same
with anything when you interpret data and information. It's a
lot of it is kind of happenstance, and it's hard
to know exactly which one is the right answer, right.
Speaker 6 (30:03):
Yeah, Yeah, here's the thing. Okay, so we're talking about
a specific version of witchcraft. But it is very very
important to note here that there are still human beings
across the planet right now in some very particular areas
that are being accused of witchcraft still and they are
being hunted for that reason.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
And are these are isolated cases, but it's true. Again,
we're not saying magic works, but there are more people
than you might believe who are practicing what they would
call this left hand magic stuff. Let's talk about something
I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but
narco cults. Right, we know what cartels are, we know
(30:44):
what the narcos are, Right, there are actual narco cults.
There was this sort of black magic that was happening
in Mexico, and we wanted to give you a specific
case of this. In nineteen eighty nine, Mexican authorities stumbled
across a genuine human sacrifice cult that was related to
(31:05):
the drug cartels.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
They were led by a guy.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Named Adolfo Costanzo, who was only twenty six.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
By the way, he's a cult leader at twenty six.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
That's pretty good.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
Yeah, I mean kind of.
Speaker 5 (31:17):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
I mean it wasn't a good cult though.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
As the thing, Oh okay, it wasn't like a friendly
mister Rogers type.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I'm just saying, I'm thirty six and I feel you.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yet I fell asleep trying to put on my pants once,
so like this this thing is, this is weird. He
and his followers were called the Narco Satanists. They committed
multiple acts of human sacrifice, adopted from non Satanic Caribbean
religions up to and including cannibalism, because they thought it
(31:47):
would render them invisible, invincible, immune to bullets, and they
you know, we have to ask did they really believe this?
The answer I would argue is yes, because they were
killing people. They were literally wearing necks plats of human
vertebrate when authorities caught them.
Speaker 6 (32:03):
You go through, they have to have believed it.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I think at least this all goes down to the
power of belief for sure. And they were eventually caught,
thank god, during an investigation into the death of an
American by the name of Mark Kilroy, who is one
of their final victims. So at least at the end
their covens, magic didn't didn't just save them from being
found out. And it turns out that magic motivated murders
(32:28):
are popular across the entire globe. You've got areas of
South Asia, some parts of Europe, the Middle East, and
several African countries where people are genuinely absolutely being murdered
for perceived reasons that are magical related.
Speaker 6 (32:43):
Yeah. I think we're all familiar with albinism or you know,
being in albino. A lot of people with who suffer
from albinism are hunted in places like Tanzania and MALOWI
are sorry, how do you say it? Malawi?
Speaker 5 (32:58):
Malawi?
Speaker 6 (32:59):
They are They're murdered because their organs are being harvested
for magical purposes. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.
Their hair and their body parts where a lot of
times or throughout history the subject of folklore of magical interest,
specifically in those regions, but recently they've been touted as
a crucial component of any sure fire potion making. So
(33:23):
if there's some witch doctor a in a tribe somewhere
and they want to make a potion. They will seek
out this stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Money, wealth, power, true love, you know, all the all
the basic ones. And in Saudi Arabia and in the
Islamic State, multiple people have been executed, like very recently
for the crime the perceived crime of witchcraft.
Speaker 6 (33:49):
Now, now, okay, we've been yeah, we've been going over
all the historical stuff, the scary stuff. Let's let's talk
about if you're going to go out right now and
try and find a coven here in Manhattan. Uh, here's
the cool thing. You can do it, and they exist,
and you can actually probably go to a greeting or
to a gathering. You could probably if it's a full
(34:10):
moon or a new moon, you can go right now.
There's a website. If you aim your browser at witch
vox w I T C h v o x dot
com you can find all of the locally or a
lot of at least the locally run covens, clans and coves.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
You got an example for us, I do.
Speaker 6 (34:27):
Do you wanna? Can you go over it a little
where I can tell you, Yeah, it's called hecate. That's
one way to say it's other hecat is another way
to pronounce it. But Hecate's Sacred Temple Torchbearer of the Crossroads.
This is self described as a group of those who
are devotees or followers of the goddess Hecate that wish
to belong to a temple that honors and worships her.
(34:48):
And uh, who is.
Speaker 7 (34:49):
Hecataeu It's the It's the Greek goddess right, Yeah, it's
the ancient Greek Hecata, as described on wicca spiritually dot
com as the goddess of all doors, gates all transitions
from one place to another or state of being, and
the original hedge sitter, the hag, the hex mistress.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
I'm a fan of people with multiple superlatives like that.
Speaker 6 (35:11):
Yeah, she's described as like the queen of witches in
a lot of places.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Sure, And this particular group, Hackate's Sacred Temple offers classes
and other opportunities for the curious to learn about their
organization and believe. I don't want to downplay anything, but
it almost feels more like a community group or like
a like a nice kind of like knitting circle or
something more than it is some sort of like devil worship,
be sacrificing.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
It's like a rotarian vibe or something.
Speaker 6 (35:38):
That's the whole point. It's it's a place for people
to hang out and worship the way they want to worship.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, that's that's what I don't want to skip. There
are modern witches, there are modern covens. None of them
are out to get you. None probably just want to
hang out.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
With really quickly, I just met somebody a little while.
I'm not going to out anybody, but it was.
Speaker 5 (35:54):
Like, Yeah, I had a coworker who was a witch.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
She was super cool.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
I loved hearing the story about her beliefs. Didn't like
her as a person kind.
Speaker 4 (36:02):
Of because we met them.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
We all met we absolutely, yeah, but had nothing to
do with the belief system more just kind of a
creepy person.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (36:14):
But my hairdresser who just moved away. Sadly, you have
a hairdresser or a salon person, a person who does
my hair. She's amazing, she's she's waking, and she just
moves away and im and I'm just so sad. But she, Uh,
she was incredible because she could touch my head and
then tell me things about my son's life.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
Oh weird, dude, do you think she just looked on
your Facebook? I mean I'm not trying to be rude.
Speaker 6 (36:37):
That probably so, but but it is true.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
People tend to just be people, and that's like, maybe
maybe that's a disappointing spoiler for some folks, But the
vast majority of ancient witches and covens, just like the
vast majority of the ones around today, they were not
after you either. You know, the more we dig into
this question, the more apparent it becomes that the allegations
of some vast, shadowy conspiracy of individuals in league with
(37:04):
infernal powers, we're just not true. They there may have been,
and they're likely were isolated groups of people in communities
practicing pre Christian spiritual traditions, but they weren't out.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
To like take over the world for Satan.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
And I know that's gonna be kind of rough news
for some heavy metal fans out there.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
I'm sad personally sad about Yeah.
Speaker 6 (37:24):
I mean, it's a bummer, but it's true portsinacious d.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
So you know, there you have it. There.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
There really are real, real life witches and real life
groups identifying themselves as covens. But as Ben said, the
vast majority are harmless practitioners of spiritual beliefs that they
hold deep and deer, and they're certainly not not out
to get you.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Yeah, or are they?
Speaker 5 (37:49):
I think they're I think they're probably not.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
Yeah, they're probably not. But that is our show.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Thank you so much for coming, everybody. We hope that
you enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
We ho o.
Speaker 6 (38:02):
Alright, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
Thank you Coddle, thanks to Paul, thanks to you, thanks to.
Speaker 5 (38:08):
You, Bag, thank you.
Speaker 6 (38:27):
Stuff They Don't Want You to Know is a production
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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