Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We have. We have a pretty disturbing classic episode tonight.
We were talking about this off air. Do you guys
remember the Order of the Nine Angles.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Yeah, it kind of burned its way right into my memory.
We were just talking off Mike about it. It's involves
individuals claiming to be part of this satanic organization or
actually part of it.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
But that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
The lines are very, very blurry, and it involves everything
from coerce to suicide to purported creation of like almost
what you might call snuff material.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Yeah, gets back to a lot of older movements. But
then I remember then there a guy named Miyatt or something.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Like that in this Yes, yeah, yeah, not Matt, but
yeah Mayatt. Mayatt just some evil stuff, right, similar to
later things we see in the Republic of Korea, right,
and online crime course innocent people into self harm. We
know that there are a lot of folks in the
(01:06):
crowd who consider ourselves Satanists, but not theistic Satanists. Theistic
Satanism is the idea that all the stuff you've read
about heaven and hell and good and evil is real,
and that you knowing that would choose to be on
the side of evil. That is maybe the best beginning
(01:30):
to the Order of Nine angles from UFOs to psychic
powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events.
You can turn back now or learn the stuff they
don't want you to know. A production of iHeart Radios
How Stuff Works.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is My
name is Nolan.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
They call me Bed and we were joined as always
with our super producer Paul Mission Control deck. And most importantly,
you are you. You are here and that makes this
stuff they don't want you to know. Quick check in
is we want to do recently? How are you guys?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Feeling feeling good? Did some traveling? Now I'm back. It's
good to be with you, guys.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Good to be with you, dude in the sacred space.
That is stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
That's right. Hey, I got to know. None of you
will ever hear it, but I got to be on
an episode of Ridiculous History this weekend.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
That's right. That's right.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
And the reason that no one of us will ever
hear is because we forgot to record it.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, we recorded a version of it, that's true while
you were on Adventures, Matt.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Well, there we go. See. It was just an ephemeral
moment that occurred, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I hope
you guys did too. Oh gosh, you saved the show. Okay,
I don't accept your what you say, but it was
it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Well, let's paint a picture real quick. Matt was the
voice of the super producer figure in the you know
scenario like super much like super Producer Paul mission Control Deck,
but he was super Producer Matt, the mad Man Frederick,
and he decided it would be fun, and it ended
up being very fun if he was off stage like
the voice of God, like the man behind the curtain,
and he chimed in with great quotes and did voices
(03:18):
and sound effects and it was just a delight.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Man. All I said were words written by mister Ben Bowlin.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Oh a lot of those were quotations from Richard Warren Sears.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Okay, well, then big ups, Richard.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
And you did some great re enactments, so we I
hope you will be able to join us for a
recorded episode of that show one day. You also, can
we mention this on air? You were in New Orleans.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yeah, I went to Crime Con and just hung out
for a little bit, met a wonderful couple the last
names white and Black. They were they were really awesome.
And uh, I did some moderating of a panel. Yeah, yeah,
it was. It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
We've been doing more and more of these paneled things recently. No, no, Paul,
I know, I know that despite trying to cajole you
into talking on the shows, it's not really your bag.
So maybe for a check in with you, we can
get a thumb up or a thumb down? Is this
a thumbs up or thumbs down?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Day?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Oh, that's a vigorous thumbs up.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
As a specific follow up question, Paul, I saw you
at movies the other day going to see a film.
Was that thumbs up or thumbs down? Film? Double thumbs up?
You gotta remind me what it was called again, Diamentino.
And it seemed like a really kind of interesting, twisty
not sci fi, but kind of an interesting, absurdist, weird
kind of ride. I'm looking forward to checking it out.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
All right.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
All right, Well, here we are again, folks, and we
hope that your check in with yourself has gone well.
Feel free to tell us about it. If you discovered
something especially strange. You can you don't have to wait.
You can just pause the episode and call us now
because we have a call in number.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
That's right, We're one eight three to three cd wy All.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I was saying at once, make it more and.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Less intelligible more.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, it's fun. People like rituals. Well, it feels like
a ritual. It feels like we're summoning something when we
say that.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And here we are again, folks, conspiracy realists, long time
and first time listeners, thank you for tuning in. We
have spent several recent episodes diving into the true crime
aspects of this show. Proven conspiracies, many horrifying or disquieting
(05:33):
things that were acts of mundane human beings, just kind
of crappy people who were self important and or had
power and wanted more of it. That's kind of how
this stuff goes often. But don't worry. We have never
forgotten about the supernatural side of this show, the world
of the occult, the world of the hidden, the esoteric,
(05:55):
the unknown. Today we are delving into the controversial world
of what is called theistic Satanism and the strange story
of something called the Order of nine angles. Angles not angels. Well,
what the heck is this thing? You might ask. The
best way to answer this question is to begin laying
(06:16):
down some groundwork first. So here are the facts. Most
people are cartoonishly wrong about Satanism. It's just true, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yeah, when you hear satanism, you probably think about some
of the imagery that I myself have placed into videos
about Satanism. Robed figures, bapphamets everywhere, horns of goats, yea,
and certainly pentagrams, pentacles, all of those kinds of things.
(06:47):
The chanting yes is definitely one and oh always almost
always black, like just black clothing with some hints of red,
or maybe all red with some hints of black, ahead
of a certainly heads.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Of goods, black goat with a thousand young.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yes, sacrifices both animal and human right right.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
The idea here is there's a secretive group of humans
and maybe some not quite humans, opposed to the more
publicly dominant narrative, ideology or religious movements of Christianity, Judaism, Islam.
The people of the book right and the people who
worshiped this monotheistic god who has in this entity's past
(07:32):
had a conflict with an adversary sometimes called Lucifer more
old scratch, the devil and Diablo. What are other good
devil names, like the actual devil not demons? Yes, that's
the one, yeah, and that the morning Star and the
morning Star, right, God's number two, the light Bringer.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
That's a really good one.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So yeah, it gets into that Promethean thing.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So the idea here is for most people they think
of stereotypical Satan or devil worshipers, they're picturing people who
accept this sort of supernatural or religious narrative, right, that
there is a God and God had an adversary of
some sort who is known by these names. This was
(08:20):
once an angel, first among the angels, and then it
fell in rebellion and it took its fellow mutineers with it.
And now these people who worship this fallen angel seek
to spread this message and to transform this the mundane
world into something closer to his infernal vision. They also
(08:42):
seem to usually informally refer to Satan as a dude.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, absolutely, And it's almost it's interesting how it's seen
as And we actually talked to David Ike briefly about this,
how there are these two opposing forces a force of
light and of darkness essentially, or corruption on the other side,
like creation and corruption.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Some kind of duality bounces around in a lot of things, right, Yeah,
and gnosticism as well, in Star Wars movies, Star Wars movies,
and some animistic beliefs.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I don't really know where I'm going with I'm just
to say like that that really is such an old
vision of how the universe functions within these sects or
within these groups.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So how accurate are these images that pop up when
we hear the word, you know, Satanism or Satan worshippers.
Luckily for us, they are not very accurate at all.
There are several well let's call them genres of Satanism, right,
and there are multiple interpretations of things that could be
called Satan in these genres, or there are people's interpretation
(09:48):
of what this thing called Satan actually means or represents.
And without getting too into the weeds on old Boys identity,
we'd like to refer you to our earlier video episode.
There's all about the origins of Satan in Near Eastern
and Western ideology.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Can we even have a show called Are there Real
Satan Worshippers? Or something? Oh? We do.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
We do have that as well.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, and it dees into almost all the questions you
might have like at the beginning of this.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So we're skipping all of that. Yeah, So if you
pause today's episode to call us and leave us a
message telling us how you're doing, which, thank you by
the way. If you did, feel free to posit again
and watch those YouTube videos as long as you're not
you know, driving or flying a plane or something like that.
So let's assume you umposit it, and now you know
(10:38):
all about the origins of satan and whether they're real
Satan worshippers. As with any religion or religious movement, Satanism
has numerous branches. It's more of a convenient umbrella term
for some related beliefs rather than any specific dogma because
they they have vastly different opinions. But they do have
(10:59):
some commonalities, right they have They have a couple of
things that they all generally agree on.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, largely an interest in magic that can be played
out in several ways, either like as some sort of psychodrama,
which to me is a ritualized kind of performative kind
of experience. Sure is that? Is there another way of
looking at that well.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
It's uh, yeah, it's it's one in which the you know,
we get catharsis, which is why people watch and participate
in plays. So it's sort of an empowerment of Catharsis
or a leveraging of that. So now the person who
the person psychodramas everywhere, it's in Christianity, it's an innocuous
(11:43):
version of psychodrama. Would be the re enactment of the
birth of the Christ child, got it, which all the
kids do in church. But in this stuff, they're like,
I in this role, now am whatever.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Deity I see.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So really a performative ritual is kind of a good right.
Or there's another kind of ritual which is maybe less performative.
It would ascribe mystical events and much more of a
magical power kind of to these acts, as opposed to
the psychodrama, which to me maybe it implies that you're
embodying it, but it's more a catharsist rather than some
kind of like.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Spell the first or the second little psychodrama. Psychodrama, Yeah,
because the mystical event that would.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Be that that is more of a spell.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
That is more of like saying I am doing this
to create this effect, you know, in real time.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
And we can we can also explore an instance of that,
but we would want people to know what's what's going
on first. But yeah, so that's that's one thing, Yes,
this interest in magic and the ritualized performance or inaction
of magic. But that's not it, right, there's other stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
There's also a sense of community, the creation of a
community that defines roles and a hierarchy, a relationship between
members somewhere between people who share a mystical pursuit to
those who live according to a set of religious belief doctrine.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
And generally, when you're talking about a lot of this
stuff and how they're forming their community, you're talking about
people who really see this philosophy of a symbolic lucifer
or satan, which is more about yourself, your own like
the single member's nonconformity to society in almost every way
(13:25):
or as many ways as are achievable.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Right, philosophy thriving on They maybe instead of nonconformity, they
might say something like the benefits of being true to oneself.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Yes, And in that way, it's it's a lot of
times about breaking your chains from a lot of societal's.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Norms depending on the type of Satanists.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Okay, okay, right.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Because you know, there can be conformity with there can
be internal conformity strictly enforced in groups that are externally nonconforming,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Yes, it's a little.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Bit of a securitiest way to put that point, but.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, you're right. The more there's some that focus a
lot on individual like the individuality, others on like the
actual sect.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, and of course the last commonality not a big spoiler,
some sort of reference to Satan, if not worship of
a singular entity. And there there are many many Satanist groups,
the best known of which are today are probably the
Church of Satan Anton Leavey right, and the spin off
(14:33):
of that the I almost called it the sequel of Set,
the Temple of Set. It's sort of like how Golden
Girls was a spinoff of Maud, but with Satan. That's
a deep cut for Golden Girls fans. So the Church
of Satan and the Temple of Set have this sort
of low level hierarchical leadership and kind of a loosely
(14:57):
agreed upon thing. We agree these following things and then
do as they'll wilt. So I want to be very
careful not to seem disrespectful of anyone's personal religious beliefs.
If you were listening to this, odds are you are
(15:19):
probably not in the Church of Satan, just because there
are so many other religions with so many other adherents
out there. But your personal beliefs are your own, as
long as you're not inflicting them on anyone else, you know,
or harming someone. It's our opinion that you can do
what you want, you know.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, absolutely agreed.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So with that all in mind, here are some just
a few different types of Satanism, right, there's one that
I think you were you're probably alluding to directly. They're
matt rational Satanism. It's secularized. It comes about in the
nineteen sixties. It's atheistic, meaning that there's not really a God,
there's not They calling it Satanism is sort of using
(16:04):
Satan as a stand in for something else. This was
under the direction of the famous Anton Levey, an author
and occultist based in The States, who you can find
audio and video recordings of his voice. Sounds far less
sinister than one would initially, you know, assume.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
It really does, and I will never understand why he
didn't begin going like exclusively by Xander Levy because his
I mean having s Zander totally has a middle name
that's powerful.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I just thought he looked like Ming the Merciless from
the Flash Gordon movie.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Oh okay, hm, wow, he really does interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, okay, Well, Western society as a thing with bald
or shaved head guys and goatee's.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
It's a very pointy goateee. It's a particular type of goatee.
It's like that super angled kind of one.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yes and uh. And this this gentleman, I'm just gonna
call him Xander. Yeah, go for it, man, or do
as thou wilt see that. That's the whole of the law.
He created the Satanic Bible. It still to this day
remains available. You can find it. It's one of the
most at least most available books that you can find
about Satanism or the Satanic religion. And he formed this
(17:15):
thing known as the Church of Satan that we've already mentioned.
It is by far the most well known. It's the
thing that is mentioned. Oh what's the what is that show?
Oh gosh, why can't I think of it? It's on
HBO it's a comedy about nerds. It's awesome, dead wood
freaking No, what is it? What's it called, Paul, It's
(17:36):
the Silicon.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Valley, Jesus Silicon Valley.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You'll see it mentioned or at least referenced heavily in
Silicon Valley where there's a Satanist character who talks about
Anthon Levey all the time. And again, as you said,
it's it's all about atheism, it's about the individual essentially
being empowered. And it really does have this nice symbolic
mirror going on between you know, satan rebelling against God
(18:04):
or whatever the large God is and then the Satanist
rebelling against mainstream culture or mainstream religion.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Right right, there is a nice symmetry to the structure
of the philosophy. Right And it's exactly as you said.
According to Levy, neither God nor Satan are actual beings,
and this is heretical to many people who believe otherwise,
even some Satanists or people who consider themselves such. The
only God in this sort of Satanism is the person themselves,
(18:34):
the individual. So Satan quote unquote, Satan is a symbol
representing the qualities that Satanists embrace. So it's kind of
like they took a character that they thought was cool
and didn't think was real, like Superman or something, and
they said, that's it. Those are the things you want
to aspire to be. So invoking the name of Satan
(18:57):
and other infernal names is a tool in the rituals
to focus one's mind on the manifestation of those qualities
and those workings.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Tipping the hat to Alistair c of course.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
No, right, yeah, yeah, he's still in play.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Have you guys seen Good Omens? Yeah, then you TV adaptation.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I preferred it to the book. I found the book
whimsical in a way that didn't really speak to me.
But I know I'm gonna get some heat for that.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I found that about the show. I couldn't make it
through episode one. I thought it was a little too keatsy,
and the CGI I really called too much attention to itself.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I'm gonna give another shot, though.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
But Crowley is the name of the demon character, which
is based on the self styled most evil or wicked
man in the world, Alistair Crowley, famous famous sexual predator,
heroin addict, and egomaniac.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
There you go, doing yeah to have it parties doing
rituals in the middle of the Great Pyramid with his wife.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Well, okay, that's that's true. I am being I am
being a bit flippant about that because I think that
guy gets more credit than he deserves. But but in
some circles he is considered a pioneer.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
I've never done that.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
No, No, I would be surprised if you had. I
don't know, it's just we can do an episode on that.
Maybe I need to be more fair and come to
terms with it. So the problem. The problem is that
at certain points in Crowley's life, and this is a
little bit of a soapbox for me, at certain points
in Crowley's life he demonstrably functions more as a con
(20:35):
artist than a true believer in someone's thing. Noh, if
you're not. If you are a true believer in something
and you're not hurting people, it doesn't matter what someone
else believes about it, you know what I mean, it's
your decision. But if you are an acting harm on
people who you know I've not agreed to be in
your shenanigans, or if you are pretending to believe something
(20:57):
that you do not believe for the purpose of bilking
the credulous. Then what are you? You're not You're not
a leader of people. You're not you're not a holy being.
You're You're the same as anybody playing a crooked game
of three card Monti.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
And just for the record, Ming the Merciless and Out
they look exactly the same. I just want to point
that out.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
So Knowle's holding this. Yeah, I've got comics from The Merciless.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Look that's them. That's that's Levey and Ming the Merciless.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Right, they modeled it after after being but several other ones. Yeah,
because there there are other characters that appear in Oh,
what's that Flash Gordon comics? Do you guys remember Flash
Gordon comics.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
That's who Ming the Merciless is from.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Okay, yeah, but there's there's a predecess. Then maybe I'm
thinking of someone else because I swear there's a predecessor. Maybe,
so my Encyclopedia of super Villains.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I'm just talking about the movie and the you know
with the Queen soundtrack fresh Oh Master of a University.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Oh yeah, that's good stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
So in comparison to or in contrast rather uh to
the Church of say philosophy, there are theistic Satanists. These
are what we think about, right, if we're the average person,
we're thinking about what.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
A Satanist is.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
To members of this branch, Satan is not just some symbol,
nor some clever useful metaphor. Instead, Satan is a genuine,
actual entity.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
These are the ones that you could refer to as
devil worshippers.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Sure, yeah, yeah, they might worship associated demons as well.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Different groups of theistic Satanists may have differing interpretations about
the nature of this being, but they all agree it's real.
It's similar in a way to the processed Church of
the Final Judgment. How they would have some Lucifers and
then they would have some what are they Sets or Satanists,
I can't remember, but they some worship this sort of
(22:50):
light bringer Promethean aspect, and others worship this punishment and
fascist aspect. So examples of this include things like the
Temple of Set, the Golden Girls to the mad of
Church of Satan, and then something called the Order of
Nine Angles also known as o NA or nine A,
(23:11):
and a lot of the and a lot of these
sorts of self styled organizations just like scientology or just
like federal government agencies. There's a huge emphasis placed on
the on initialisms and acronyms.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
So let's talk about how they were founded. But let's
do that after a quick word from our sponsor. All Right,
we're back. Let's talk about the Order of the Nine Angles.
So according to you know, one of the I guess
(23:46):
the common story that you can see people within the
Order of the Nine Angles, which are we We're gonna
get into it later. It's a bit hard as an
outsider to discern what is what, as we'll find later
in the episode within the Order of the Nine Angles.
But of the things that are publicly facing in the
virtual world, the common story is that the organization itself
(24:08):
was founded sometime in the nineteen sixties, and then as
it continued along, it started to gain more and more attention,
especially in the nineteen eighties, and a lot of it
had to do with activism, specifically neo Nazi activism, which
tied this group into its self described traditional Satanism.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Right at times. The Order of the Nine Angles has
been described as one of the world's most extremist and
dangerous of Satanic groups, and it's known for its support
of far right militant movements overwhelmingly racially or religiously motivated.
Wece called it the most secret of Satanic groups as well,
(24:53):
claiming that it advocates for animal sacrifice, human sacrifice, and
reshaping the world entire to one's will. So what is
the true story? Where does the order of nine angles
come from? And how do the rumors stack up to
the facts. Here's where it gets crazy. First version, according
(25:14):
to their story, it's very much like you said, man.
First version, it's established in the nineteen sixties by this
shady lady who's usually called not an intentional rhyme, usually
called lady Master, and she had previously, according to the
story the tale they spend, been involved in a quote
secretive pre Christian tradition that survived in the Welsh marches
(25:37):
of Western England. So before the time or the rise
of Christian ideology, there was this secret mystery religion and
this person inherited the secrets passed down through ritual, through
oral folklore, through rites and passages, unbeknownst to the greater
(25:58):
world and the the nine to a or Ona believe
that Satan is one of two a causual beings. A
causual being something that is not dependent upon cause for
it to exist, something that sort of prefigures the if
then reality of human existence. These eternal beings are there
(26:22):
are two of them, going back to thinking about duality, right,
One is Bathomet, was female in their mind, and one
is Satan, who is male in their mind. And then
in nineteen seventy three, a guy calling himself Anton Long
was initiated into this group, eventually attaining the title of
Grand Master, and he really popularized the group with other
(26:44):
groups because he was quite prolific. He was the Alexander
Hamilton of his group. He wrote to wrote and wrote
and wrote Man the Kid is NonStop, et cetera, other
quotes from the Hamilton Broadway Show. Because of this, you'll
hear a lot of people say that he was really
the de facto founder. It suspected that the person was
(27:09):
the original. They called her the Lady. Master eventually had
a child with the person calling themselves Anton Long and
relocated to Australia, at which point Long began running the
show There you go.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, you'll you'll find you'll find different versions of it.
One in this website called a cult study dot Org
talks about how it was Anton Long who actually, and
again this is probably likely from whoever is calling themselves,
like you said, Ben anton Long, from the own his
own writings essentially where he brought together three different groups,
(27:42):
essentially three different secret orders. What is it Nocturllian's the
Temple of the Sun and the Kamlad tradition, that this
guy brought them all together and created this thing called
O nine A. And again you'll find very versions of
it throughout the internet.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Right. They expanded on the order's concepts and their ideas
in all these publications which we'll get into, and they
tied it into some oh what should we call it,
some contemporary politics of their time. There in nineteen eighty
eight they made their journal fin Rear, which was another
(28:26):
was another sort of rung in the ladder of walking
up to public prominence, which is what they always wanted.
With each publication, this group sought to establish links with
other neo Nazi Satanist groups, which are totally a thing,
and there are more than you might imagine. And by
that I mean not just not just people who are
(28:48):
being profiled because they're fans of metal, but yeah, people
honestly do consider themselves Satanists.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Yeah, and this is where we get into the full
society some of the strange occult beliefs and actions of
portions of the Nazi Party, or at least some of
the upper echelon of the Nazi Party.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I'm really glad that you mentioned that, because the Order
at times has preferred to describe its ideology as Nazi occult.
And it's strange the way these things become ephemeral. Right,
the names can be worn and discarded like old jackets, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Or reused and reshaped, and now it means something completely.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Different, redefined, right, yeah, like you know that. I mean,
that's also just a human thing, that's just a mundane thing.
There is some magical power and names for people who
are adherents of those belief systems. But take the term
neoliberal versus liberal. Liberal means something very different in an
international sphere than it does here. And the leading conservative
(29:52):
party in Australia, for instance, Australia just had an election
as we're recording this. The leading conservative party is the
Liberal Party.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Believe there you go.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
I don't know names, what are they? Maybe they are
all old jackets.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
So the Order prefers to describe itself it's ideology rather
as Nazi occult. So that's promoting a supernatural system of
thought that condemns liberal Judeo Christian society and longs for
a new imperial age created by a sub Nietzschean superman
(30:26):
figure called the Index. And that is not Windex pronounced
with a German accent. It's the Index, the v that's right.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
They that's true.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Yeah, here it is, and they anton long to do that.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Right, and ultimately the idea is to expand to the
stars and to bring this ideology outside of the terrestrial sphere.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Woo.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Yeah, I mean that's it's an ambitious belief system.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
It sounds like they want to be stormtroopers, you know
what I mean, like full on the whatever the New
Order is in the new Star Wars systems. It feels
like that to me.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
And they also did some really disturbing stuff the way
it's tied up in this kind of love of fascism
and this again I don't know how sincere it is,
this worship of characters like Adolf Hitler. So that's the
first version. The second version's a little different, and it
(31:33):
dives into more mundane matters according to observers and commentators,
and you'll find a surprising amount of literature on this.
There is no real Anton Long. This is a pseudonym
used by a British former Neo Nazi named David Mayat.
I think it's Mayat M. Yatt who either used this
(31:54):
organization to further his own ends or created an elaborate
hoax out of whole cloth. Yeah. He's known in Britain
for being a hardline national socialist or neo Nazi, advocating
national socialism as well as violence. In the past, he's
been implicated in physical beatings of people. And usually when
(32:15):
these sorts of characters are implicated in violence, they attack
in packs, you know what I mean. So like a
group of people jumping a single person the nine to
a grab national attention and the global war on terror
when the organization was second or even third hand associated
(32:36):
with series of murders.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
So then this order wanted to you know, move up,
get some more things like not really infiltrate, just bring
in other groups to grow their own ranks, right, So
they attempted to infiltrate some of these non Satanic Nazi
groups or neo Nazi movements such as there's one specifically
just mentioned in several publications called the Waffen Division, which
(33:01):
is often ATAM whatever it is Atom Waffen, and it's
a US based organization. And this group, at least its
affiliates killed five people in twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen.
So this is recent. This is very recent, and it
is a real group. It's just sounds it sounds odd.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
So from the law enforcement side of things, the all
this esoterica and a cult ritual doesn't really matter anymore
than say, like a gang initiation or some kind of
really heavy hazing.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yeah, right, exactly, because they're not going to It's useful
in that it can identify members of an organization, but
to then, you know, imagine, if your job is to
stop organized crime and gang killings, you want to learn
about these groups so that you can to some degree
predict and prevent, predict their behavior and prevent further criminal acts.
(33:58):
But you're not you know, odds are if you're if
you're in the FBI or something, You're not going to
stay up at night worrying that these people may curse you.
You're more concerned about whether they have access to firearms
and explosives. It's a you know, it's it's kind of
a more grounded or mundane look at this. However, do
(34:20):
you have to stay on a side note. I did
find two Freedom of Information Act request to the FBI
about this order of nine angles, and in both cases
the FBI responded by saying that they searched and they
didn't have anything there you go, So maybe they're not
a big deal. I don't know. Mayat, for his own
(34:43):
his own right, has also, in addition to nine things
like the Holocaust, denied that he ever went by the
name Anton Long. He also went through iterations where he
practiced as a Buddhist monk, and then he embraced radical Islam,
praising al Kahi and attempting to unite Nazis and Islamic terrorists.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
That's nightmare material.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
That's an odd couple, isn't it. Yeah, it seems strange, right,
But so so we already see in the origins of
this thing there is a bit of duplicity. The question
is whether it's purposeful or whether it's just kind of bungling,
you know what I mean? How much of this is
meant to be taken seriously? How much of it is
meant to be believed? I think we mentioned a little
(35:28):
bit about their process, and you mentioned vendex. What about
the the rest of their beliefs? What's their plan?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah, so they believe that civilization has to be destroyed
from within, completely undermined and disassembled, dismantled. So the adherents
are actually encouraged to be pretty awful people, like, as
you know, part of their whole prescribed course of making
this happen. So that includes things like committing crimes, random
(35:59):
acts of violence, actual assaults, and even this whole like
genocide kind of idea, calling human victims.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
They also embrace magic. They do share that same commonality
that we had mentioned at the.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Top, right.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
But when we talk about their magic, what are we
talking about? I guess that's part of why they're called
the Order of the Nine Angles.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
All right, you ready for this? I got this from
nine a dot org and it's just a post there,
and it's talking about what the nine angles actually represent.
So it says, quote, their nine angles refer to the
nine combinations of the three basic alchemical substances mercury, sulfur, salt.
(36:39):
And these nine angles slash combinations were first outlined in
this text. It's from nineteen seventy four. It's called emanations
of Urania, Urania, Urania who knows, And these nine combinations
can be used to symbolize how the causal and a
causal are manifest to us, as for instance, in our
psyche the nexion of causal, a causal that we are
(37:04):
via archetypes, personality types. And it just goes on with
stuff that I honestly am struggling to understand.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
And a lot of this, a lot of writing in
this sphere, whether it's howking left hand path or right
hand path, stuff does tend to be a little bit obtuse.
They also practice something that they call the sevenfold Way.
So the sevenfold Way is a series of steps meant
(37:31):
to make someone a practical master of all forms of
sorcery physically mentally fit in this way is divided into
these seven stages. The stages are neophyte, initiate, external adept,
internal adept, master of temple or mistress of earth, a
grand master or grand mistress, and of course immortal. Sometimes
(37:55):
initiates are described or called novices, and adepts are called
priests or priestess. It goes on mais majastrap.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
It's also known as heb hebdomedry Hm. Is that our
word for today, matt Hebdomedry? Well, the sevenfold way? How
does it? How's it spelled? H G B d O
m A d r y all right? Uh?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Someone used that in a sentence and call us.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
So it's strange when we look at this, because what
what we're seeing quickly becomes a rabbit hole of accult
philosophy and working again tied in very much like the
Thule Society or Tule Society.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
To these.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
To these race based beliefs. Uh. And what what we
pointed out, however, should already be pretty disturbing. The purpose
here for the members of this society, by their own statements,
are to destroy what we know of as civilization and
(39:00):
up to and including human sacrifice, which they do talk
about at length, and which differentiates them from a lot
of other Satanic groups. Let's let's pause for a moment
for a word from our sponsors, and then, assuming that
we have not been killed via magical means, let's explore
a little bit more about their work.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
We made it. We're still here. Yes, no one has
gotten us by magical, psychic or more traditional means. So
that's good.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Let's check on Paul.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Yep, Oh, he's there. He's intact, all right, good.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I don't know when his eyes turned all black.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
But you know it's it's it's it's just called the Monday.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
It's a Monday, a cosmetic thing. Yeah, yeah, these kids
these days, so they're not this group. The Order of
Nine Angles is not known for subtlety, especially so they
have a book called The Black Book of Satan, comes
in three volumes. These are considered so extreme that they're
(40:10):
kept in a special section of the British Library. They're
not available to the general public. You have to ask
for the metacounter research purposes kind of thing. That's because
these books repeatedly talk about the idea of calling committee
acts of violence and destabilization up to an including terrorism
and with active culling. What's fascinating is one of the
(40:33):
steps that they're told to do is to groom someone
to voluntarily submit to being sacrificed. That's the ultimate, the
ultimate coup there. And they also have an interesting work
study program for lack of a better term, that they
send their members on Would.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
You believe I had looked up The Black Book of
Satan on Amazon and there is one paperback available used
for eight hundred and sixty four dollars.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Yeah, I would believe that. I guess they're hard to
get a hold of.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
That happens with a lot of occult books. Yeah, I
mean it maybe's too that someone has someone is either
like bilking someone or they have multiple copies and they're
just putting them out one at a time. I saw
that before, you know, I wonder if anybody does have
a copy of the Black Book of Satan.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I found a free download pdf on a cultboards dot com.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
I'm sure it's the real deal.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Hah, yeah, right, getting a PDF of the Black Book
of Satan. I laugh at the that's fair. So let's
get into what is required of ONA members who were
going along that sevenfold path trying to get into one
of the noxioms or whatever they're called.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah, that work study, I was mentioning.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Exactly one of these, one of these cells essentially, so
they they want people to spend six months either just
traveling like hitchhiking the way you would a traditional traveler
along that path, working as either a burglar, maybe working
even as a police officer, or infiltrating some version of
(42:10):
an extremist political group where you're just kind of roaming
and in working inside one of these other organizations.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Two things that connect with this. This is very inspiring
for any of us horror writers in the audience. There
used to be a television show maybe in the nineties
early two thousands that was sort of this scary anthology
show called The Hitchhiker. Yeah, remember that and the Hitchhiker.
(42:38):
The frame was that someone picks up the hitch hiker
and terrible stuff happens, which was gold. But it makes me,
it makes me see how appealing this could be to
people who are fearmongers in the nineteen eighties nineteen nineties
satanic panic scare here in the United States. Could say
(43:00):
Satanists are all around you. They're low level criminals, they're hitchhikers,
they're living off the grid. You know, they're going to
rainbow gatherings or you know, they're hopping trains. They're avoiding
the spotlight of mainstream America. And with the fact that
you know that seems like that seems like just some
(43:21):
something people would say to us sell headlines right or
get people to tune into sixty minutes or something. But
here we have a real group saying yes, go do
this for six months.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
Yeah. Especially what baffles me is thinking that, at least
on this list where it was mentioned saying a police
officer would be a good route for this. And I
guess it's because you're you're essentially practicing power over others.
I guess there are reasons that a police officer would
be I think on that list.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, in in one passage they said, do something that
is far outside your previous life experience, but working and
law enforcement will give you Liam Neeson esque certain set
of skills. There you go, you know, for physical altercation,
tactical thinking.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Well that yeah, and that's something we kind of talked
about before in this when we're mentioning that sevenfold path
that you go down to join this group. It is
about the psychological, it's about the empowering that, it's about
empowering you psychically, it's about empowering you physically and all
these things. So I guess a police officer would be
a really good way to get there.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
And from their literature, this has a this is weird.
I want to say, you guys think of this. So
from their literature they attempt to quote, undertake the role
of extreme political activists and so champion heretical views by
e g. Becoming involved in extreme right wing activism. They
demand this. In one of their introductory books, they say,
(44:57):
quote the aim is to express fanaticism and act x
and be seen by all right thinking people as extremists
and dangerous. So they want to be the people who
are I don't know, it feels to me like they're
talking about edginess for the sake of edginess. You know,
like they're gonna bust into an alt right meeting and
(45:18):
someone's gonna say, well, you know, I just I just
don't think we should. They're gonna bust into a tea
party meeting. Maybe let's make it even more innocuous, and
then they'll say I don't think we should pay taxes
and they're like, yeah, additionally we should burn all the money.
Speaker 3 (45:33):
Yeah, and everybody's like, oh, those guys are dangerous.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
So so they've they've kind of got this idea of
again very very motivated by racism. They've kind of got
this idea similar to Joker in the Dark Night, where
they the heath Ledger Joker the good One, where they
want to just so chaos indiscriminately. But unlike the Joker,
(45:59):
who it was a fictional character and exists only to
spread chaos for the sake of chaos itself, this group
seeks to spread chaos to make it easier to propagate
their twisted world and cosmic view. So we see that's strange,
tragically not necessarily alien marriage of ideology. Here, the Nazis
(46:22):
and the so called Satanists uniteen to pursue goals that
are at least non mutually exclusive.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
So for the nine to a fascism is actually seen
as a means to an end rather than an end
in and of itself, particularly this idea of a sinister
dialect that's the key to the aonic evolution of human
civilization into a higher form. But the Meijian Nazarene distortion,
(46:52):
also known as the Christians and the Jews, is holding
back Western civilization, according to this doctrine, from reaching its
final all step, some sort of evolutionary step, and must
be overthrown if humanity is to advance.
Speaker 5 (47:08):
So holy war or unholy war, absolutely, yeah, And the
vision here goes to that thing that you mentioned earlier,
been that y index, yes.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Right, being led by index deep into the cosmos where
where we mentioned though, establish a galactic reich to champion
and make known our unique human destiny of galactic exploration
and the colonization of outer space. This is from the
Drekkian Way d R E C C I A. And
(47:41):
we're not recommending that you check out these books. We're
just letting you know that these are These are the
the tenets, the goals, and the aims as self described
by this by this uh organization.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Oh yeah, and they really do want to you know,
it's this concept at least of creating a sinister world.
But here's the thing. In order to have the world
be sinister, you got to make the people that are
living in that world or controlling and running that world sinister.
So they think this can happen through what they call
(48:17):
the practice of genuine modern heresies. I like that. I
don't mean to poke fun at it, but genuine modern heresies.
And this is you know, again taking yourself, the individual
person through all of these mental and physical trials that
you know, well, you're going through mental and physical trials
(48:39):
and at the same time you're also practicing magic with
a k so ritualizations things you're you're basically, I don't know,
you're you're honing yourself on all possible fronts to become evil.
I guess in a way, or maybe not, the word
evil is correct here, but to do the things that
the group wants to do. Well, here's a question.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Do you think people that are adherent to this kind
of belief system do they see themselves as evil?
Speaker 1 (49:07):
That's interesting in some In some cases there would be
people associating with this because they want to they want
to be seen as evil.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
But don't they just think that the path of satan
is the better path?
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Many probably do.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah, So I'm just wondering if if good and evil
even enters into it at this point when when it
comes to your thinking behind getting behind something like this.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
I guess that's why I was hesitant to use the term.
I guess I'm what I mean is adversarial to the
status quo and or the the ways in which society
are set up, in the institutions that hold that society up.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
I'm just getting all big picture about it in my head,
and it's just interesting to think about the nature of
good and evil and this. Does true evil really see
itself that way? Or do they just believe that they're
actually doing what's best.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
It's an interesting question because in many cases, yeah, in
many cases, all great villains are the heroes of their
own stories. Right, then say I'm doing terrible things, but
I'm doing it for a greater reason, right and there
you know, people have to die, but the world will
be better, et cetera, et cetera. The thing that's interesting
about some theistic satanism and why it can be so
(50:18):
attractive to people who are already involved in something that
puts the bulk of its emphasis on violence in the
short term is that there's not too much of a
leap to go to something else like this. And one
thing that's interesting about the question about regarding seeing oneself
(50:40):
as good or evil is that you can get a
little bit of a sense, not a reliable, not a
one hundred percent reliable sense. You can get a little
bit of a sense of how someone sees themselves by
what emphasis they place on things. Do they place the
emphasis on their ultimate end goal? Vision? Is that like
(51:00):
seventy percent of this, you know, like most many religions
spend seventy percent or so of their time talking about
how to be a decent person now, right, or do
they spend the majority of their time talking about the
violet things they will do to get a vaguely explained
thing in the past, right or sorry, in the future. Yes, yes, yeah,
(51:22):
I mean that's to me. It's tough because it probably
varies case by case. But I'm sure in Satanism there
are a few people who think I am evil, I
embrace it, I'm the son of the beasts or whatever,
and they probably really believe it. Maybe they're misled.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
You know, whatever does it for you is what I say.
Like we're talking about the beginning of the show. If
you can use religion and maybe not ritualistically murder people,
but if this does it for you, you know, being
evil or the idea of being evil, and you're not gonna,
you know, call an entire population, then I say, more
power to you. But unfortunately, this particular idea involved a
lot of these random acts of murder and rape and violence,
(52:00):
stuff doing unto the innocent. So can't get behind the
can't get behind the O nine A here, guys, I'm sorry,
I cannot throw my endorsement at this order.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Which is weird because it was your pitch, I know, sure,
and I think it was interesting because I had never
heard of this, and this leads us to maybe one
of our bigger questions which we always have to ask
with these sorts of groups. Is it a case of
Satan's military, a Satanic army, or is it a case
more of internet bravery? You know? Like the Order has
(52:32):
been referred to as Satan's military, but it seems more
accurate to say that the Order or the people who
claim to be involved with it, because we can't verify
a whole bunch of people, seems accurate to say that
they are maybe militant in attitude more than organized and
violent in person, because the crimes that can be reasonably
traced to nine A affiliates and partner organizations seem to
(52:54):
be crimes that were sort of egged on by the group,
but not enacted by the group directly. And the nine
A was also once dismissed by other occultists as the
Order of no members because this one guy, David Mayat
and I think another guy named Malt appeared to be
the only visible figures within the organization. So how much
(53:16):
of it is just them writing prolifically under different names,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (53:21):
The pseudonym aspect I can see at work here. But again,
we did point this out already a little bit. But
we have noticed, and it's been documented that their growth,
this nine A growth, has been right alongside other like
I guess what we would call right wing extremist.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
Groups, sure, yeah, yeah, supremacist organizations would be a big one.
Neo Nazi organizations. And this has led to a couple
of really strange conspiratorial thoughts, one being there was actually
some infighting between members of white supreme see groups and
(54:01):
members of this nine A thing, because there were people saying, look, guys,
I'm just here because I'm a white supremacist. I don't
like all this weird hocus pocus stuff. I'm we've lost,
We've lost our way out of the game. And everyone's like, oh, well,
that guy doesn't get it. And then someone else said,
you know, I feel like I also fought more on
(54:24):
the supremacy now side, and like the magic stuff's cool. Like,
don't get me wrong, dude, I love metal or whatever.
I'm not I'm not knocking metal. I am knocking racist,
but I'm not knocking metal.
Speaker 3 (54:36):
It does make me feel a little bit sad for
the people who joined up because they were all about
that magic and all about the that stuff, and they realized, oh,
this is a separatist group.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Yeah right. There are other people who said, I thought
we were just doing rituals.
Speaker 3 (54:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
I mean, I'm down for our infernal Lord and Master,
but I feel like our Infernal Lord and Master should
be an equal opportunity employer.
Speaker 3 (55:00):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
So, I mean, we're making a little bit of light
of this, but it's a dangerous thing when we see
this connection of ideologies and these people are conspiring in secret.
We don't know. We don't know how much of it
is just bluff and bluster on the nine A part.
We don't know how much of it, even to some degree,
is taken seriously by all the people. Is it an
(55:22):
elaborate hoax. There's a lot of writing out there, but
again it's not as if there is a center that
you can visit. You know, there's not a power structure
that is readily apparent to a lot of people, and
perhaps that's they've just kept it internal. We do know
that at this point the organization is still considered to
(55:45):
be out there, but the views it espouses have have
mainly caught the attention of law enforcement and governments because
of the actions of its affiliates white supremacist hard right
wing terror groups terrorist groups. At a two thousand and
three UNESCO conference in Paris concerning the growth of anti
(56:07):
Semitism in Europe and abroad, they stated, David Mayat, the
leading hardline Nazi intellectual in Britain since the sixties, who
maybe what is it Anton Long has converted to Islam.
This was true at the time. He praised Bin Laden
and al Qaeda. He called the nine to eleven tax
and active heroism. He urged for the killing of all
(56:30):
like all Jewish people, and he also he used another name,
Abdullah ziz Ibin Mayat, he supported suicide missions. He has
one of the most thorough English language defenses of that.
He urged young Muslims to take up violent jihad, which
is not Any actual Muslim will tell you that the
(56:52):
kind of thing he's calling jihad is not jihad. Observers
warned that he's a dangerous man. But since two thousen
he claims to have changed. He says, I've rejected Islam.
My extremists passed, and guys, it's all about loving each other. Yeah,
that's what he says now, but the extremism seems to
carry on. The question now is whether it's legitimate, whether
(57:15):
the people who claim to believe it online actually practice
it in person or some have proposed is the entire
thing a hoax? Is it a government front to monitor
right wing groups? Let us know what you think.
Speaker 3 (57:28):
That's the most promising for me, or the most silver
lining answer for me. It's a front group of some
sort that's trying to stop some of these other organizations.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
But people still got killed, so they must not be
doing that great of a job.
Speaker 3 (57:42):
Yeah, you know, you're probably right.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't
wait to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (57:51):
It's right.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
Let us know what you think. You can reach to
the Hammle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on Facebook x
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