November 24, 2023 • 57 mins
On September 16, 1994, teachers and school officials at the Ariel School in Ruwa, Zimbabwe were amazed when the school's students reported that a flying object had landed on the school grounds. What makes this sighting unique? What differentiates it from other UFO reports? Join the guys as they interview Randall Nickerson about his investigation of the sighting, and his upcoming documentary on the Ariel School UFO encounter.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to tonight's classic episode Fellow Conspiracy Realists. The hard
truth of ufology is this, not all sightings are created equal.
Some appear to be a one off happenstance with maybe
a single stranger, no recording, it's just an experience they
witness by themselves, maybe in a rural area. But others
(00:22):
seem to have a lot more to them.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Oh yes, and today we're talking about one specific sighting,
a mass sighting. It was experienced by a bunch of
school children, and then basically those school children grew up
and interviewed with the person we're speaking with today. So
this is like as close to first hand accounts as
(00:46):
you can get.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
So let's hop on the space train with Randall Nickerson
where we talk about his investigations into these kinds of
sightings and a documentary that he participated in on the
Aerial School UFO Encounter.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
From to Psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled
with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn
the stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt nol
Is on Adventures.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
They call me Ben. We are joined with our super
producer Paul Decant. Most importantly, you are you and you
are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want
you to know. Matt. At the top of the show, Okay,
here we are, I have to say thank you for
bringing this episode to Fruition because you and I have
(01:52):
talked in previous previous shows about UFO sightings.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah right, oh yeah, one of the most fascinating things
that I think can occur in this world.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And over the years we've covered various aspects of it,
and we've often found We've often found people who will
attempt to explain a genre of sighting, like a type
of sighting, or will attempt to explain a single incident.
(02:24):
But what's fascinating and startling to both of us, I believe,
is that even in the modern day, there are so
many huge sightings that have been sort of lost to history.
You may have you may be listening now, and you
may think I vaguely recall hearing something about something like
(02:45):
a specific incident, But too often we lose the details,
and too often we as a civilization forget to investigate
the actual nuts and bolts, the specifics that timelines. Yeah,
the what happened and when.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, absolutely. And the most fascinating genre within the UFO
siding of that type, for me at least, is the
mass sighting where it's not just you know, a small
group of people like a family or something that saw
something something like the Phoenix Lights, where there's almost an
entire town that has this sighting at one time, or
(03:26):
something like what we're going to discuss today. And we
have someone very special on the show today who is
currently directing and producing an entire film, a documentary about
one particular UFO siding and encounter. His name is Randall Nickerson.
Welcome to the show, sir.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Thanks guys, I appreciate being here.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Well, thank you for being on the show with us.
Come on currently.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Currently, as as we speak, there are questions that remain
about a specific mass sighting of an unidentified flying object
in nineteen ninety four in Zimbabwe at a place called
the Aerial School. Could you tell us and the listeners
just a little bit about the gist of this what
(04:17):
people usually mean when they refer to this phenomenon.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
It was an event that took place in nineteen ninety
four at the Aerial School in a rural area of
Zimbabwe in Africa. Where a school yard of children had
seen this craft of some kind silver that had come
(04:41):
down and set down in the back of the school
yard about one hundred and fifty two hundred yards back,
and they saw these creatures in black that came out
of this object. Some of them, many of them had
(05:04):
eye contact with it and one of them, at least
one had approached the playground. There were other witnesses also
adults that we had witnessed either the object itself in
the sky. There was a lot of anomalies at the
time also, but the main incident seemed to be this
(05:25):
school in Zimbabwe.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So these are students that were outside and they experienced something.
How old are these kids that saw this thing? And
roughly how many of them were there?
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Well?
Speaker 1 (05:41):
There were.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
It was a schoolharded children between the ages of six
and thirteen. The number of children that drew drawings had
the headmaster of the school after the incident happened and
there were the children are all shook up, and initially
(06:08):
the children were not believed by the teachers, teachers or
the head master. But after that they had gone home
to their parents and shared the story with their parents
with their appropriate emotional impact and all that the head
master had had them come come back and draw what
(06:28):
they saw. So there were sixty drawings made, but through
the research and meeting a lot of these people, there
were quite a few more than that.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So that's a fascinating point then, because it sounds like
the sixty plus children were talking about and the drawings
these all are only the witnesses and the depictions of
which we're currently aware. There's one interesting thing we found here,
(06:58):
which is that in the aftermath of the siding, the
children were interviewed by the BBC Bureau chief for Zimbabwe.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Is that correct, that's correct. Yeah, he was the first
one to interview the children. He was the first person
with a camera and he happened to be with a
you know, with the BBC to show up at the
school and actually start asking questions.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
What did with that initial reporting? You know a lot
of times when UFO sidings make the news, it's almost
in a joking way, or there's a there's a bit
of it's not looked at with really any type of seriousness.
Even in nineteen ninety four, perhaps especially in nineteen ninety four.
(07:51):
How was it treated when it initially hit the news?
Speaker 4 (07:55):
It was treated similarly that it wasn't taken seriously in
the beginning. I think the BBC reporter didn't take it seriously.
He was trying to you know, when he was interviewing
his children, He's like, are you sure it wasn't a helicopter.
He's sure it wasn't, you know, normal standard things. So, yeah,
(08:16):
there was a lot of skepticism by everybody, the teachers,
the parents, to the whole event. So it was difficult
for the for the witnesses, which often I think after
meeting a lot of other witnesses from other incidents around
the world that involved you know, uh UFOs or unidentified
(08:43):
aerial phenomena, you know, they're it's they're not. It's hard
for people to find a place where they can actually
share their experience.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah. And one thing that's fascinating about the timeline here
with this citing in particular, is while while many mass
media outlets so often, as you and Matt pointed out,
so often treat these reports with anywhere from skepticism to
a dismissive tone, this story did not did not disappear.
(09:20):
In fact, Harvard psychiatrist doctor John Mack became involved.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Correct, that's true, Yes, he came. He was called by
the BBC reporter to because the reporter was felt like
he was out of his way, out of his territory
and needed more professional guidance. Doctor John Mac, He's a
Harvard psychiatrist. He had won the Pulitzer Prize. He had
(09:48):
spent twenty years as a child psychiatrist psychoanalyst, and so
he had a lot of experience with children and he
was he went traveled to Zimbabwe uh To to investigate
this this incident and was very interested in, you know,
(10:08):
seeing seeing what it's legitimacy was, if it was legitimate,
and what that meant. You know, he was looking into
at that time UFO reports and witnesses, and he at
that point was starting to look globally, you know, not
(10:28):
just about incidents in the United States, but incidents in
South America, Africa, European countries to see how widespread the
phenomenon was. Because doctor mac had started to take it
seriously after he had met some I think about ten
(10:49):
witnesses that he was introduced to and his he when
doctor Mac first approached this, he thought that this was
some kind of psychiatric phenomena, some kind of psychiatry that
it was coming from the person, not an external actual reality.
But when he started to meet people that and that
(11:13):
he put through psychological psychological screening tests, he found that
they were telling the story that was had all the
earmarks of real experience. I think, you know this, this
whole phenomena is I think generally the public is not
(11:34):
highly educated about you know, things that are normal, you know,
astronomical events. And the reason I'm bringing that up is
because there are a lot of reports that are just
you know, everyday objects that astronomers know or other people
(11:58):
are aware of, you know that that specialize in those fields.
But there's a lot that we we don't know. There's
been many studies about the unidentified aerial phenomena, uh that show, like,
you know, out of all the reports, probably five percent
are legitimate mysteries because largely the general public is not
(12:24):
educated in a way to know, you know, what what
what occurs normally in the sky. Astronomers know, people that
spend a lot of time out at you know, in
in in the environments at night, or educated in that
department to know when if it's venus rising on the
(12:45):
horizon or or setting on the horizon, and or some
other objects, fireballs, or space debris. There's there's so many
different things that can be misidentified and be be a
shock to somebody who's never seen them or that isn't
aware of st you know, the iss the space station
(13:06):
when it crosses over, it's a pretty amazing site. So
I just wanted to bring that up because I think
it's important that you know that there are reports that
you know, a lot of them that are just can
be relegated to things that are just normal, you know,
(13:30):
things that just happened. But then there's that five percent,
which is what interests anybody looking into this, that are
truly legitimate.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
You know, I'm really glad you talked about that because
a lot of a lot of writing I've seen online
about this just commenting. You know, anyone who has an
Internet connection can comment now on anything, And some of
the more derisive comments I've seen about this particular event
are about, Hey, these are kids. These are kids who
(14:01):
saw something. They were probably making stuff up. Maybe they
just saw something and they're all, you know, it was
a helicopter or something and they decided to make a
game out of it. In particular, these children are these
are well spoken kids. You got your hands on the documentary,
(14:21):
all of the footage, basically the news footage, and you're
using it to craft your documentary. Can you talk to
us a little bit about just what these kids sound like,
what it's you know, they sound credible just to me
sitting here watching a trailer for the aerial phenomena, But
talk to me about being immersed in that just for
(14:42):
as long as you have been. What are these kids like?
Speaker 4 (14:45):
They're highly intelligent, all of them in the school itself
is a is a Christian school still, and you know
they they're very highly educatedchildren and partly due to the
teaching staff and how much love and care they give
their students. Being immersed in it and meeting these children
(15:11):
as adults, it's been Yeah, it's been a really beautiful
experience just on a personal level, like getting you know,
meeting meeting just another person, but they actually happened to
have a story that I'm interested in and seeing I
guess part of it. Uh, you know, people say, well,
(15:33):
why you know, yeah, these kids may have made something
up or I just find that really difficult to believe
because I have all the archival of you know, they've
been interviewed half a dozen times by you know, several
different news outlets and reporters, you know, when it happened,
(15:53):
immediately after it happened, and the consistency in those reports
is just riveting. It's just it's fascinating just on that level,
the consistency that children that young can tell the same
story from their own perspectives that you know, corroborates every
(16:16):
other one. And they're not like getting together. I've never
I haven't seen that we're getting together and you know,
coming up with something or you know that doesn't seem
to be that way. And as adults, they're still they
still think of that day out of any day in
their life, what happened on that day. It's it's it's
(16:37):
fresh to them. So I went through my own struggle
of like, well, did this happen or did this not happen?
What are the other possible explanations for this? And but
I've over time become pretty convinced that something really occurred there.
That these comes through small details, small details that even
(17:04):
as some of the adults remember that they don't even
know about the archival that I have, but they'll mention something,
you know, as a as adults, now that they don't
even know about that I have in the archival from
some other child who mentions that detail. It's it's just
(17:26):
it's that kind of thing where there's a there's a
lot of corroborating evidence. I guess you could say that's
what that would be the word that speaks to the
validity that that this occurred, and it's not It wasn't
like a normal event, you know. It wasn't like a
typical UFO thing that they could have read out of
(17:48):
a book. It was very, very different than the standard
you know, or I don't know if there's a standard encounter,
but you know what, what others have run into is
very unique encounter with whatever this intelligence is.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And this is a tremendous point that you have hit upon,
and it's one of the first questions that a lot
of people who consider themselves more on the skeptical end
of the spectrum will have. The idea of children reporting
stories leads into the concept of kids without meaning to
(18:29):
be misleading, manufacturing memories, or getting details wrong, and so
it's tremendously important to emphasize that in this case, the
children's details. I love how you point out that the
details are one of the things that really set you
(18:51):
on a path of discovery here, because we can always
as human beings, misremember things or get things wrong. But
if multiple people are having these same accounts, and if
they have come to these accounts through their own experiences,
you know they are not, as you said, getting together
(19:13):
off camera or something and making sure their stories match.
If they are all reporting from their own perspective a
similar or identical event, then it builds a much stronger case.
And an additional thing that I know all of us
out in the audience are wondering, is something that came
(19:34):
about as we were exploring the communication with the children
or should we say the former children who were involved,
because they are now as you said, they are adults,
right in their twenties or thirties, and now that there's
this time that has passed, I feel like there's part
of the story we also need to explore here, which
(19:57):
is your part? Randall? How did you you become involved
in this investigation? How did you become the documentarian who
is exploring this event and bringing it to the world.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Well, I started actually September eleventh. That was down in
New York City, two blocks away from the World Trade Center,
when the building came building too came down, and that
was kind of my inspiration to get into film and
tell stories, you know, share real stories, because that was
(20:35):
a very real event for me, and like everybody struck
everybody in a way that probably made most people to
make changes in their lives. And I started making short
films and one was on the value of silence and
(20:57):
listening in the world, unity, personal relationships, therapeutic relationships. And
I had showed it to a friend of doctor John Max,
and she had asked me if I was interested in
making a film about this Zimbabwe case, and I said sure,
(21:23):
And I was very fascinated with just seeing me children
being interviewed. I'm like, my first impression, I think everybody
sees that is that they're telling the truth what they
saw or whatever. I didn't know at the time, like
exactly what that truth was, but they were telling the truth.
They felt honest and truthful, and you know, I was
(21:44):
originally supposed to make a thirty minute DVD for the
John mac Institute, and I just I felt like that
John Max material was very good, but I felt like
it there was there had to be more to the story.
I wanted to know more. I wanted to know more
(22:05):
about well, were there other sources that I can compare
his interviews to, you know, to see where he was
coming from or where the kids were the story was consistent.
So I found the school back in two thousand and eight.
And as soon as I found it, and then that
(22:26):
came to a reporter in South Africa, I immediately went
there and discovered a whole bunch of different things that
the that the BBC was there, and then there was
a big hunt to find that reporter and to get
his uh archival footage and of and and and I
(22:48):
continued to do this for years to find all the
archival because that that to me was important. If I
could compare doctor max footage with that with all the
other people that had interviewed these children, that would convince myself,
you know more so and be more of a convincing
story if the consistency was there, which it was, And
(23:14):
so that's that kind of led me to thinking of
it like this is such an important story, not only
about the fact that this happened alone, that that some
school in rural Africa had this full encounter, but the
story of this Harvard psychiatrist going over there, and then
(23:37):
the the repercussions he got for for dealing with the
phenomena at all, So that it's a very which you know,
at some point I read, I reached the point like
this is this is a feature documentary. There's this You
can't tell this in a short form or in a
small way. This is a really big story. And you know,
(24:02):
I would say, and other people have said it before.
I know, is just you know, these incidents happening all
over the globe. Every single country has reports, and if
just one of those reports is true, it changes everything.
And there's been tens and thousands of reports going back,
(24:23):
you know, to the sixties, even before that, fifties and sixties.
So I think that's part of the drive that I've had.
It's like, well, this, this is a very important story
as a whole for us, you know, as a as
a species on this planet too understand that or to
(24:46):
to start looking at, well, maybe there's something to all
this stuff. You know that that if and if there is,
we really should be paying attention to that because that
means that there's a higher order species, something with a
higher level of technology than us, that is interacting with us.
(25:08):
And then the The real concern for me is, well,
that means that something else could potentially decide our fate.
That concerns me, you know, And that's why I feel
like we should know as much as possible. And I
hope this subject begins to be taken seriously because it's important.
(25:33):
It's not just important. It's not the wow wow ufo
you know, aliens who can I don't even care about that.
I care about the fact that there is an intelligent
species that's more evolved than us potentially, uh, that that
could have a huge effect on our direction as a
as as us as human beings.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
And we're going to pause here just for a moment.
We'll be back after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
What it brought to my mind is a clip from
one of the little girls who was being interviewed, I
believe by John mac and she said something to the
effect of the being communicated a message to her. And
I think it was John that was trying to get
her to talk more about how the being communicated to her,
(26:27):
and she ended up saying something that there was a message,
a very specific message. Do you remember what that was?
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Yeah? Yeah. Several of the children reported when they were
in close contact with this one being or there was
another one that reported too, But during that there was
an intense connection between the kids at the playground and
the being that approached them. And during that moment and
(26:59):
that all the kids it was like time just stopped.
But several of the kids got this uh sort of
I don't know how it was. They didn't know how
to explain how it was communicated, but you know, in
in you and I would know that as telepathy, you know,
something that was transferred mind to mind. And the message
(27:23):
was about our own environment. And several not not not
the majority of the witnesses, but several of them, at
least a half a dozen, maybe more, because a lot
of them in the present day are are are not
They feel a little uh nervous to share that. But
(27:45):
the message was about what we're what we were doing
to our planet or what what what our direction was
with our own environment. I don't know. I wonder about
wonder about that a little bit. Underwell, as somebody sees
something traumatic, you tend to think about, you know, particularly
something from out out of this world that might be
(28:09):
a response to to a trent. I mean, you may
think about your own place more I'm just thinking of
alternative reasons why that would come out or it really happened,
you know, or it was really communicated to these kids,
And then the question is why.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And in the footage Randall, he's you know, I think
it is doctor Mack and he's saying, you know, repeatedly saying, well,
did you think about this before? Is this a thought
you've had before?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Why?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Why did you think about this? And he would allow
for more questions in between, then he would ask her again,
is this something you were thinking about or that you
know you've been taught or told, And just repeatedly she's like, no, No,
I didn't think about it until I got home and afterwards.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yeah. And one thing I'd like to go back to
as we're talking about the kid's accounts is something that
I know has the interest of a lot of our
listeners here, and that is that the event as described
by again these more than sixty school children, has aspects
(29:12):
that do not match the stereotypical UFO encounter story that
we have heard. Right, you said there were some unique
things that occurred and that the kids pretty much universally
agreed on some of these things. We've also heard some
reports that there were some small differences in children's accounts.
(29:34):
But what set this apart in your mind from the
typical again I hesitate to use the phrase typical, but
the super familiar, stereotypical UFO encounter story, like what really
stood out?
Speaker 4 (29:51):
I think what really stood out well. Number one was
the fact that they showed up at a playground at
a primary school. It is one big one and sort
of from all the reports were it seemed to be
to have approached the playground and observed the children. There
was no action taken, There was no you know, nobody
(30:16):
was taken or anything there there you know, it was
it was almost like an observation that that that I
find really interesting. The the other thing that's unique is
that they were all wearing black, like a black skin
tight suit, these creatures, And there's only I think three
(30:37):
times in the history of of this phenomena that uh
that's been reported, So that was unique. The message part
is not. I mean some of the research I've done
with other cases, that's not terribly uncommon that people that
(31:02):
have had encounters with these things get some kind of
message about our own environment and our own direction as
a species. So I think, yeah, I mean, those are
the two big things that stand out for me are
are where it took place, how it took place, and
what they were particularly wearing it made it unique. And
(31:26):
of course the message transmission and all that also.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Oh and we should point out most importantly not only
was this on a playground, but this was also and
this will seem unusual to many people, this was during
the day, during a school day, I believe was their
mid morning break at ten am or something.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Yeah, thank you for reminding me that. That's what also
makes it unique.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, yeah, very good.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Yeah, it happened at the ten thirty break in the
morning on a Friday. And yeah, that that also is unique.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
So I want to bring something up here, and it's
a it's a point of contention that I've seen online.
I just want to talk about it. Let's let's let's
just go there, Okay. I have heard some people suggest
that perhaps this was an elaborate prank by some of
the teachers because of a few things. Most of the
(32:25):
teachers were in a meeting at the time, or at
least they I think they were having a teachers meeting
of some sort. There was one teacher perhaps outside that
was manning basically a snack stand kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah, and then it's been positive before that perhaps the
teachers were having fun with the kids and trying to
do something in that way, and it's been done before,
It's been done afterwards where teachers have faked an invasion
for the kids and then they reveal it later. Really,
(33:01):
this is just in your mind. Is there any possibility
that something to that effect occurred that day.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
Of Well, I've seen those reports of teachers at doing
this sort of fake UFO thing that's that started happening
I think into in the two thousand and eight, two
thousand and nine sort of, But the kids were aware
of it. I mean, it wasn't something they you know,
the children, the teachers pranked them on. But I don't
(33:33):
find any I mean I've interview I've talked to all
the teachers and they were shocked themselves. They didn't know
how to deal with it. So there's no validity to
that that. This is none. I mean, I've interviewed all
the teachers. I have all the teachers interviewed in at
the time. There's just no way I can even see
(33:53):
that as a possibility. It's just not there because it
because mainly because the teachers were shocked. I mean they
were they didn't believe the kids. They you know, not
all of them, but many of the teachers initially did
not believe that the kids until the kid's parents started
showing up and saying, look, something happened to my kids.
(34:15):
What happened? You know? And then then it got uh
you know, taken more seriously by the staff, and they
head master and and they they were they became really
convinced that something had occurred. You know, It's it's tough subject.
I mean, they were all of a sudden, they're all
(34:36):
the teachers were were put in a position of, Okay,
these children are reporting this, but we don't believe this,
and you know, it goes to so I don't I
don't find any validity to that argument at all. I've
found nothing there. And I've looked at that, I've looked
at hoaxes, you know, and you have to I got
(34:57):
to say, I don't think enough people do this us
in the UFO field or the unidentified aero phenomena field. Uh,
you know, you got to look at everything. You know,
you can't take a report as just the way it is,
you know, like I looked at everything, like what was
going on with the teachers, what was going on in
(35:18):
the country with their military, with you know, what was
going on in space at the time you got and
what were what where was the sun rising that day?
What was the you know at night, what was the
where was venus? I mean, you all these questions you
need to ask to do a thorough to get a
thorough take on something too, And I think it's really important.
(35:41):
I don't think enough people do that. And the other thing,
you know, like with the teachers, this these children coming
to the teachers. Uh, the teachers had a certain worldview
and this is a lot of things John mac talked
about and others like that. And this is what really
(36:02):
this whole phenomena is about, really is that, you know,
is our worldview. You know that these things aren't supposed
to exist, so we just they're not they they're not real,
they're not they don't exist. So the most of the
(36:23):
teachers were in that worldview, and they were approached by
the children and being challenged in a in a big
way from them by saying, no, this is what we saw.
But the worldview, like for all of us is you know,
we most of us have this worldview that that you know,
(36:46):
there's nothing more than intelligent than us, and we like
to keep that worldview because it makes us feel good,
makes us continue to want to do things. Uh, But
there's different world views, like in Africa, people in the
native populations, that's that's not they don't have the same
(37:06):
world view. They are open to understanding that yeah, we're
we're the you know, dominant species here, or we think
we are, and but there are other other species out
in this vast ocean that we look at at night
(37:27):
love stars. So I just think that the world, our
world views is what's being challenged with this whole phenomena,
Like it's something we really don't want to look at
because it challenges our our ego really well.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
You know you This just brings up so much that
I've been reading recently because of this interview about doctor
John E.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Mack.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
And honestly, I didn't know a whole lot about this gentleman.
And we've discussed before that he he as a PhD
from the Harvard School of Medicine and he's a psychologist psychoanalyst.
He is also a self described parapsychologist and has done
some fascinating work in that field. And for someone with
(38:14):
such accolades and such an education and just a brilliant
person to immerse himself in that field that is so
socially I would say, maligned, maybe socially unaccepted, controversial, controversial
at least yes, correct. For to have someone like this
look into this whole phenomena, this one event, and then
(38:38):
to have that group seek you out to produce a
documentary on this subject, it's just it lends such credibility
to it. I don't know. I think that's one of
the main reasons why I personally am so excited about
this documentary, not just the resources, but because there is
(38:58):
this this man who then kind of became an institution.
Can you tell us a little bit about how like
you you mentioned something about repercussions with John eMac for
his beliefs and kind of what we've been talking about here,
What happened? What were those repercussions?
Speaker 4 (39:18):
I mean, John Mack was he was brilliant and I
think you know you had won the Pulitzer Prize and
I believe it was nineteen seventy seven. He was brilliant
as a psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and I think what happened, this
is my take that he got bored with, you know,
(39:39):
the standard model of looking at a person in a
therapeutic environment and got very interested in anomalous experiences that
people didn't, you know, extraordinary experiences that were difficult to believe.
And I think he was looking at different models of
(40:06):
psychotherapy to explore the unconscious, the unconscious and he then
he had dealt with people who had near death experiences
and witnesses to UFOs or aliens, and and being such
(40:28):
a high level person and he started the Cambridge Hospital.
He was, you know, uh a psychiatrist on at the
Harvard Medical School, a professor, and he started to get
flack from the university for his looking into these these
(40:51):
cases and the repercussions. They really went after him. They
were threatening to take away his tenure and basically fire him,
which is never in the history of Harvard University been done.
There's never been a person threatened like that the whole
entire history of Harvard, and that goes back to the
(41:12):
late sixteen hundreds. So it was really that was very unique.
And they you know, it was a whole not a trial,
but essentially one behind closed doors, and you know, their
concern was that he was you know, that these patients
(41:34):
actually had psychological illnesses yet they displayed none of them.
But that was their angle, that the concern for patients,
and which is understandably I could totally understand their angle.
But honestly, my take on it now as I felt
like they were really trying to tarnish his reputation.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
And intimidate him. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
Yeah, And you know, I he he had lot, you
know through this whole Harvard inquisition, which was had many
people involved, including Alan Dershowitz, and you know it's just
it's a cast of of some famous people, and you
know that he had lost his circle of friends at Harvard.
(42:18):
Nobody wanted to be around him, you know, during this time.
And so I think the Harvard it really achieved a
goal in sort of just you know, hurting his credibility.
So it's quite a hero's journey in a way. I
mean it was the man, a man who was had
(42:42):
a conviction that these people are are telling the truth.
You know, different people that are reported, including these children
in Africa, they're telling the truth, and what does that mean?
Asking the question of what does that mean? If this
is the truth and this is not something psychological, what
does that mean for us as a species?
Speaker 2 (43:04):
And we're gonna take a quick break. We're just gonna pause.
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Regardless of how someone encounters this story or what they
personally believe, right, the crux of the issue is the following.
There are things that have yet to be explained about
this event, which was not that long ago. I mean,
(43:37):
maybe we're dating ourselves a little bit here, but nineteen
ninety four is that you know, it's it's the past,
but it's relatively recent, and there are still things that
we can find out through rigorous investigation, through on the
ground interviews, through the work that you are doing. But
all of it leads us to again the question you
(43:59):
just positive, which is what does this mean? What does
this mean for the future? What will humanity overall discover
from this event? And you know, we haven't even we
haven't touched on the the other events across the world
that you have mentioned that you alluded to that have
(44:22):
some of the same threads running through them, right, So
this is a question that we at least I don't
know if you've got something up your sleeve, mat but
This is a question that we don't have the answer to, Yetta,
at least us.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
There's some stuff in here, but I don't think it's
answers to that question though.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Ah Well, what we would like to do is, I
guess our next question for the show here then, is
to ask if you could tell us a little more
about the state of the documentary as it stands now,
but what our listeners can do to help and where
(45:03):
they can learn more about the piece.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Sure, can I say one thing first?
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
So during this filming and interviewing, I mean, I've traveled
to Africa three times and all over Europe finding all
these witnesses in the United States, Canada, you know, I've
been approached by several people, you know, dozens and dozens
of people that have heard I'm doing a movie about
(45:31):
UFOs and they come and they share their experience with me,
and you know not and and these are people this
is what always strikes me. There are people that have
I mean, they come to me and they say, don't
tell anybody, because I haven't told anybody, or they've only
told their immediate family, and they share these stories that
(45:52):
nobody knows about. They're just they keep it to themselves.
They're afraid of ridicule, They're afraid of you know, Uh,
they're afraid of a lot of things to uh to
be to for it somehow to go public, afraid of
losing their friends, all kinds of fears. Yet their stories
(46:13):
are you know, they sound and their feelings express something
really happened. I just find that heartbreaking in a way
that we there's this whole culture out there that is
not being heard, that you don't see at UFO conferences,
that you don't see anywhere. They've just had these experiences
(46:36):
and they're keeping it to themselves and that and if
if it's just considering the number that I've run into
and just doing the math of how many people there
has to be like that, uh, is just it's a
lot of It's a lot of people that could be
helping us solve this mystery, and there just doesn't seem
(46:59):
to be enough of a drive from us or our
media or our culture to really want to find out
what's going on here. Because I think it's pretty important
that we that we do try to understand it and
try to find out more Because as far as I
want to personally, I want to know what's going on.
(47:22):
I want to know what situation humanity's in, like, I
want to know that if there's something out there, I
really want to know about it. I want to know
how it can impact me. I want to know what
I should be afraid of or a need to be
afraid of. I don't know, I just I or not,
but I would like as much information as possible. I
(47:43):
know about all the wildlife that live in the forest
that I'm in, and I'm very curious, you know, to
find out a lot about them. If there's something else
out there, it's it's another form of wildlife just happens
to be smarter than us. I want to know it's
my much as possible, particularly because it's smarter than me.
(48:03):
So I don't know, I just it just strikes me
that I, you know, I'll be glad when the day comes,
and it will come when universities have programs that are
really doing intense research about this, you know, and eliminating
the Charlatans and whatever the BS stories that are out
there and getting to the real stories and piecing this
(48:25):
puzzle together because we need to know.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Agreed, Okay, Randall, So tell us tell us how we
can learn more about the Aerial Phenomenon documentary. Where can
we learn about it? Where can we watch a trailer
for it? When do you think it's coming out? Just
tell us everything.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Okay, So the film we're at a rough cut right now,
working toward a final. It's it's fantastic. I mean, I
can't say enough, and it's my I wouldn't usually be that.
I'm just really excited because it took It's taken a
long time, but I've done it right. I've gotten some
of the best people to work on it, and I've got
(49:03):
an editor that worked with Michael Moore, did Fahrenheit nine
to eleven, did Siico, and has done other brilliant films.
So I've gotten really great people to work on it,
and we're working toward a final. You can check it
out at Aerial Phenomenon dot com. We have a trailer there,
(49:26):
and we have a trailer where Dan Aykroyd plugs the
film and he's very aware of this case and he
was just wonderful supporting the just trying to get this
the word about this film out there. But you can
see quite quite a bit of information on the site.
We're still taking donations because it's been you know, it's
(49:47):
been a project from the heart kind of thing, and
it's been up and down. You know. We get funding
and then the funding stops, and then I go back
to work to pay for more filmmaking, more editing. It's
it's been hard to uh, you know, when you don't
have the funding right there and you have to play
(50:08):
all these roles to uh to keep it moving, and
sometimes the production stops and then get we move ahead again,
and then it stops again. Because anyway, it's been a
challenge for sure. But so yeah, we're looking at for
being at a final within three months. So it's coming.
(50:29):
It's coming soon. And I think the reaction because the
other thing, this is not really a film about UFOs
in a sense. I mean, it is a film about
this incident, but it's it's a lot also about what
happens to people, you know, what people go through when
(50:51):
they have reported something like this and and how it
sticks with them, and that's it's kind of a lot
of different things. But it's not your traditional by any
sense UFO film at all. It's very mainstream as far
as a story, and there's really a lot about the people,
(51:12):
you know, not so much about the aliens or the
wu woo stuff about UFOs, and I kind of think
that's where the conversation needs to go, is in us
getting out out sort of out of the wu Woo
flash like aliens, aliens, alien stage two? Okay, well, you
know what are we looking at?
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Here?
Speaker 4 (51:32):
Is it? What is it? You know, if it's an
alien or some other creature from another planet, it's another
animal basically, you know what I mean. So I think
it would be I really would like to work toward
changing the conversation to so we can get to it,
(51:52):
so he can really get to the heart of heart
of this matter issue and learn from it, find out
what it is. And you know, the recent things that
have happened that came out in the New York Times
with the military was absolutely fascinating. I don't know if
you guys aware of that.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
Yeah, we just did a couple of interviews about that.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yeah, the Pentagon Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program, I believe
with Lewis Selesando. Yeah, that was a that was a
massive surprise to I think everybody who even who even
casually follows this sort of news.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
What an about face, you know, there's a dude named
Jeremy Corbell that we talked to you recently about that.
Speaker 4 (52:40):
Oh I just met him.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah, fascinating, great, fascinating guy. Uh well, okay, look, Randall, I,
like many people listening right now, am very excited to
watch the Aerial Phenomenon. I know Ben is too.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Yeah, we'll go ahead and also post the trailer that
you can find when you're done with this podcast. You
can check it out on our Instagram or Facebook and
our Twitter.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Yeah, we'll put that out there now. By the way,
we are conspiracy stuff at Twitter and Facebook and conspiracy
stuff show on Instagram. If you're out there and you
want to, you know, discuss this project further and again,
go to aeriel that's a r i e. L phenomenon
dot com.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
Yeah, and there you can find more information about the documentary.
You can watch the trailer, you can see some of
the news. You can also contact the project directly with questions.
And you know, one thing that one thing that I
think everyone listening should absolutely take away from this episode
(53:47):
is a point that you brought up, Randle, that there
are so many people that you have met who feel
that they have experienced something that would that they are
unable to communicate with the world because of fear of
social repercussions, right or social stigma. With that, and the
(54:11):
most one of the most important things to remember here
is that if you were listening and you feel that
some sort of event has happened to you, if you
feel that you do not have a voice regarding this,
or that you do not have the ability to share it,
the good news is we exist. Well, the good news
is that you are. You know that you are not
(54:33):
existing in isolation. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions,
of people around the globe who have experienced something that
they feel they may not be able to explain, and
it is very important to remember that no person exists
in isolation. And depending on depending on what people may
(54:57):
ultimately find out about the aerial finace coming on and
other sightings of this kind, perhaps our species also is
not an island and does not exist in isolation. I'm
waxing a little poetic. I apologize, I apologize.
Speaker 4 (55:11):
I'm glad you said that though. I think that's that's
really important that people don't feel alone, you know, m
because it's what the people I've met, it's it's it's
hard that's what makes it hard, you know. They it
just sits in themselves alone, and it's yeah, all kinds
of things can happen from that place.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Yeah yeah. So thank you so much Randall for joining
us today for this and thank you for all the
work you're doing on you know, this project. We're again,
we're very excited to see it and we can't wait
to see how it turns out. And you know, if
you want to descend us, maybe a screener or something,
I'm saying, Ben, Ben and I are here and you know.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
You're doing the heart well in all in all seriousness, yes,
thank you so much for your time, both on our
behalf and on behalf of our fellow listeners out there
in the audience. And if you are listening and thinking
I have a story to communicate, I would like to
tell somebody I know something that I haven't shared with
(56:12):
the world yet. You, of course, can reach out to us.
We would love to hear from you. You are the
most important part of this show. Go ahead and send
us a missive, a communicate on your social media platform
of choice, or if none of that.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
And that's the end of this classic episode. If you
have any thoughts or questions about this episode. You can
get into contact with us in a number of different ways.
One of the best is to give us a call.
Our number is one eight three three STDWYTK. If you
don't want to do that, you can send us a
good old fashioned email.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (56:53):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to tonight's classic episode Fellow Conspiracy Realists. The hard
truth of ufology is this, not all sightings are created equal.
Some appear to be a one off happenstance with maybe
a single stranger, no recording, it's just an experience they
witness by themselves, maybe in a rural area. But others
(00:22):
seem to have a lot more to them.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Oh yes, and today we're talking about one specific sighting,
a mass sighting. It was experienced by a bunch of
school children, and then basically those school children grew up
and interviewed with the person we're speaking with today. So
this is like as close to first hand accounts as
(00:46):
you can get.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
So let's hop on the space train with Randall Nickerson
where we talk about his investigations into these kinds of
sightings and a documentary that he participated in on the
Aerial School UFO Encounter.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
From to Psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled
with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn
the stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt nol
Is on Adventures.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
They call me Ben. We are joined with our super
producer Paul Decant. Most importantly, you are you and you
are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want
you to know. Matt. At the top of the show, Okay,
here we are, I have to say thank you for
bringing this episode to Fruition because you and I have
(01:52):
talked in previous previous shows about UFO sightings.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah right, oh yeah, one of the most fascinating things
that I think can occur in this world.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And over the years we've covered various aspects of it,
and we've often found We've often found people who will
attempt to explain a genre of sighting, like a type
of sighting, or will attempt to explain a single incident.
(02:24):
But what's fascinating and startling to both of us, I believe,
is that even in the modern day, there are so
many huge sightings that have been sort of lost to history.
You may have you may be listening now, and you
may think I vaguely recall hearing something about something like
(02:45):
a specific incident, But too often we lose the details,
and too often we as a civilization forget to investigate
the actual nuts and bolts, the specifics that timelines. Yeah,
the what happened and when.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, absolutely. And the most fascinating genre within the UFO
siding of that type, for me at least, is the
mass sighting where it's not just you know, a small
group of people like a family or something that saw
something something like the Phoenix Lights, where there's almost an
entire town that has this sighting at one time, or
(03:26):
something like what we're going to discuss today. And we
have someone very special on the show today who is
currently directing and producing an entire film, a documentary about
one particular UFO siding and encounter. His name is Randall Nickerson.
Welcome to the show, sir.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Thanks guys, I appreciate being here.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Well, thank you for being on the show with us.
Come on currently.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Currently, as as we speak, there are questions that remain
about a specific mass sighting of an unidentified flying object
in nineteen ninety four in Zimbabwe at a place called
the Aerial School. Could you tell us and the listeners
just a little bit about the gist of this what
(04:17):
people usually mean when they refer to this phenomenon.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
It was an event that took place in nineteen ninety
four at the Aerial School in a rural area of
Zimbabwe in Africa. Where a school yard of children had
seen this craft of some kind silver that had come
(04:41):
down and set down in the back of the school
yard about one hundred and fifty two hundred yards back,
and they saw these creatures in black that came out
of this object. Some of them, many of them had
(05:04):
eye contact with it and one of them, at least
one had approached the playground. There were other witnesses also
adults that we had witnessed either the object itself in
the sky. There was a lot of anomalies at the
time also, but the main incident seemed to be this
(05:25):
school in Zimbabwe.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So these are students that were outside and they experienced something.
How old are these kids that saw this thing? And
roughly how many of them were there?
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Well?
Speaker 1 (05:41):
There were.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
It was a schoolharded children between the ages of six
and thirteen. The number of children that drew drawings had
the headmaster of the school after the incident happened and
there were the children are all shook up, and initially
(06:08):
the children were not believed by the teachers, teachers or
the head master. But after that they had gone home
to their parents and shared the story with their parents
with their appropriate emotional impact and all that the head
master had had them come come back and draw what
(06:28):
they saw. So there were sixty drawings made, but through
the research and meeting a lot of these people, there
were quite a few more than that.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So that's a fascinating point then, because it sounds like
the sixty plus children were talking about and the drawings
these all are only the witnesses and the depictions of
which we're currently aware. There's one interesting thing we found here,
(06:58):
which is that in the aftermath of the siding, the
children were interviewed by the BBC Bureau chief for Zimbabwe.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Is that correct, that's correct. Yeah, he was the first
one to interview the children. He was the first person
with a camera and he happened to be with a
you know, with the BBC to show up at the
school and actually start asking questions.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
What did with that initial reporting? You know a lot
of times when UFO sidings make the news, it's almost
in a joking way, or there's a there's a bit
of it's not looked at with really any type of seriousness.
Even in nineteen ninety four, perhaps especially in nineteen ninety four.
(07:51):
How was it treated when it initially hit the news?
Speaker 4 (07:55):
It was treated similarly that it wasn't taken seriously in
the beginning. I think the BBC reporter didn't take it seriously.
He was trying to you know, when he was interviewing
his children, He's like, are you sure it wasn't a helicopter.
He's sure it wasn't, you know, normal standard things. So, yeah,
(08:16):
there was a lot of skepticism by everybody, the teachers,
the parents, to the whole event. So it was difficult
for the for the witnesses, which often I think after
meeting a lot of other witnesses from other incidents around
the world that involved you know, uh UFOs or unidentified
(08:43):
aerial phenomena, you know, they're it's they're not. It's hard
for people to find a place where they can actually
share their experience.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah. And one thing that's fascinating about the timeline here
with this citing in particular, is while while many mass
media outlets so often, as you and Matt pointed out,
so often treat these reports with anywhere from skepticism to
a dismissive tone, this story did not did not disappear.
(09:20):
In fact, Harvard psychiatrist doctor John Mack became involved.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Correct, that's true, Yes, he came. He was called by
the BBC reporter to because the reporter was felt like
he was out of his way, out of his territory
and needed more professional guidance. Doctor John Mac, He's a
Harvard psychiatrist. He had won the Pulitzer Prize. He had
(09:48):
spent twenty years as a child psychiatrist psychoanalyst, and so
he had a lot of experience with children and he
was he went traveled to Zimbabwe uh To to investigate
this this incident and was very interested in, you know,
(10:08):
seeing seeing what it's legitimacy was, if it was legitimate,
and what that meant. You know, he was looking into
at that time UFO reports and witnesses, and he at
that point was starting to look globally, you know, not
(10:28):
just about incidents in the United States, but incidents in
South America, Africa, European countries to see how widespread the
phenomenon was. Because doctor mac had started to take it
seriously after he had met some I think about ten
(10:49):
witnesses that he was introduced to and his he when
doctor Mac first approached this, he thought that this was
some kind of psychiatric phenomena, some kind of psychiatry that
it was coming from the person, not an external actual reality.
But when he started to meet people that and that
(11:13):
he put through psychological psychological screening tests, he found that
they were telling the story that was had all the
earmarks of real experience. I think, you know this, this
whole phenomena is I think generally the public is not
(11:34):
highly educated about you know, things that are normal, you know,
astronomical events. And the reason I'm bringing that up is
because there are a lot of reports that are just
you know, everyday objects that astronomers know or other people
(11:58):
are aware of, you know that that specialize in those fields.
But there's a lot that we we don't know. There's
been many studies about the unidentified aerial phenomena, uh that show, like,
you know, out of all the reports, probably five percent
are legitimate mysteries because largely the general public is not
(12:24):
educated in a way to know, you know, what what
what occurs normally in the sky. Astronomers know, people that
spend a lot of time out at you know, in
in in the environments at night, or educated in that
department to know when if it's venus rising on the
(12:45):
horizon or or setting on the horizon, and or some
other objects, fireballs, or space debris. There's there's so many
different things that can be misidentified and be be a
shock to somebody who's never seen them or that isn't
aware of st you know, the iss the space station
(13:06):
when it crosses over, it's a pretty amazing site. So
I just wanted to bring that up because I think
it's important that you know that there are reports that
you know, a lot of them that are just can
be relegated to things that are just normal, you know,
(13:30):
things that just happened. But then there's that five percent,
which is what interests anybody looking into this, that are
truly legitimate.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
You know, I'm really glad you talked about that because
a lot of a lot of writing I've seen online
about this just commenting. You know, anyone who has an
Internet connection can comment now on anything, And some of
the more derisive comments I've seen about this particular event
are about, Hey, these are kids. These are kids who
(14:01):
saw something. They were probably making stuff up. Maybe they
just saw something and they're all, you know, it was
a helicopter or something and they decided to make a
game out of it. In particular, these children are these
are well spoken kids. You got your hands on the documentary,
(14:21):
all of the footage, basically the news footage, and you're
using it to craft your documentary. Can you talk to
us a little bit about just what these kids sound like,
what it's you know, they sound credible just to me
sitting here watching a trailer for the aerial phenomena, But
talk to me about being immersed in that just for
(14:42):
as long as you have been. What are these kids like?
Speaker 4 (14:45):
They're highly intelligent, all of them in the school itself
is a is a Christian school still, and you know
they they're very highly educatedchildren and partly due to the
teaching staff and how much love and care they give
their students. Being immersed in it and meeting these children
(15:11):
as adults, it's been Yeah, it's been a really beautiful
experience just on a personal level, like getting you know,
meeting meeting just another person, but they actually happened to
have a story that I'm interested in and seeing I
guess part of it. Uh, you know, people say, well,
(15:33):
why you know, yeah, these kids may have made something
up or I just find that really difficult to believe
because I have all the archival of you know, they've
been interviewed half a dozen times by you know, several
different news outlets and reporters, you know, when it happened,
(15:53):
immediately after it happened, and the consistency in those reports
is just riveting. It's just it's fascinating just on that level,
the consistency that children that young can tell the same
story from their own perspectives that you know, corroborates every
(16:16):
other one. And they're not like getting together. I've never
I haven't seen that we're getting together and you know,
coming up with something or you know that doesn't seem
to be that way. And as adults, they're still they
still think of that day out of any day in
their life, what happened on that day. It's it's it's
(16:37):
fresh to them. So I went through my own struggle
of like, well, did this happen or did this not happen?
What are the other possible explanations for this? And but
I've over time become pretty convinced that something really occurred there.
That these comes through small details, small details that even
(17:04):
as some of the adults remember that they don't even
know about the archival that I have, but they'll mention something,
you know, as a as adults, now that they don't
even know about that I have in the archival from
some other child who mentions that detail. It's it's just
(17:26):
it's that kind of thing where there's a there's a
lot of corroborating evidence. I guess you could say that's
what that would be the word that speaks to the
validity that that this occurred, and it's not It wasn't
like a normal event, you know. It wasn't like a
typical UFO thing that they could have read out of
(17:48):
a book. It was very, very different than the standard
you know, or I don't know if there's a standard encounter,
but you know what, what others have run into is
very unique encounter with whatever this intelligence is.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And this is a tremendous point that you have hit upon,
and it's one of the first questions that a lot
of people who consider themselves more on the skeptical end
of the spectrum will have. The idea of children reporting
stories leads into the concept of kids without meaning to
(18:29):
be misleading, manufacturing memories, or getting details wrong, and so
it's tremendously important to emphasize that in this case, the
children's details. I love how you point out that the
details are one of the things that really set you
(18:51):
on a path of discovery here, because we can always
as human beings, misremember things or get things wrong. But
if multiple people are having these same accounts, and if
they have come to these accounts through their own experiences,
you know they are not, as you said, getting together
(19:13):
off camera or something and making sure their stories match.
If they are all reporting from their own perspective a
similar or identical event, then it builds a much stronger case.
And an additional thing that I know all of us
out in the audience are wondering, is something that came
(19:34):
about as we were exploring the communication with the children
or should we say the former children who were involved,
because they are now as you said, they are adults,
right in their twenties or thirties, and now that there's
this time that has passed, I feel like there's part
of the story we also need to explore here, which
(19:57):
is your part? Randall? How did you you become involved
in this investigation? How did you become the documentarian who
is exploring this event and bringing it to the world.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Well, I started actually September eleventh. That was down in
New York City, two blocks away from the World Trade Center,
when the building came building too came down, and that
was kind of my inspiration to get into film and
tell stories, you know, share real stories, because that was
(20:35):
a very real event for me, and like everybody struck
everybody in a way that probably made most people to
make changes in their lives. And I started making short
films and one was on the value of silence and
(20:57):
listening in the world, unity, personal relationships, therapeutic relationships. And
I had showed it to a friend of doctor John Max,
and she had asked me if I was interested in
making a film about this Zimbabwe case, and I said sure,
(21:23):
And I was very fascinated with just seeing me children
being interviewed. I'm like, my first impression, I think everybody
sees that is that they're telling the truth what they
saw or whatever. I didn't know at the time, like
exactly what that truth was, but they were telling the truth.
They felt honest and truthful, and you know, I was
(21:44):
originally supposed to make a thirty minute DVD for the
John mac Institute, and I just I felt like that
John Max material was very good, but I felt like
it there was there had to be more to the story.
I wanted to know more. I wanted to know more
(22:05):
about well, were there other sources that I can compare
his interviews to, you know, to see where he was
coming from or where the kids were the story was consistent.
So I found the school back in two thousand and eight.
And as soon as I found it, and then that
(22:26):
came to a reporter in South Africa, I immediately went
there and discovered a whole bunch of different things that
the that the BBC was there, and then there was
a big hunt to find that reporter and to get
his uh archival footage and of and and and I
(22:48):
continued to do this for years to find all the
archival because that that to me was important. If I
could compare doctor max footage with that with all the
other people that had interviewed these children, that would convince myself,
you know more so and be more of a convincing
story if the consistency was there, which it was, And
(23:14):
so that's that kind of led me to thinking of
it like this is such an important story, not only
about the fact that this happened alone, that that some
school in rural Africa had this full encounter, but the
story of this Harvard psychiatrist going over there, and then
(23:37):
the the repercussions he got for for dealing with the
phenomena at all, So that it's a very which you know,
at some point I read, I reached the point like
this is this is a feature documentary. There's this You
can't tell this in a short form or in a
small way. This is a really big story. And you know,
(24:02):
I would say, and other people have said it before.
I know, is just you know, these incidents happening all
over the globe. Every single country has reports, and if
just one of those reports is true, it changes everything.
And there's been tens and thousands of reports going back,
(24:23):
you know, to the sixties, even before that, fifties and sixties.
So I think that's part of the drive that I've had.
It's like, well, this, this is a very important story
as a whole for us, you know, as a as
a species on this planet too understand that or to
(24:46):
to start looking at, well, maybe there's something to all
this stuff. You know that that if and if there is,
we really should be paying attention to that because that
means that there's a higher order species, something with a
higher level of technology than us, that is interacting with us.
(25:08):
And then the The real concern for me is, well,
that means that something else could potentially decide our fate.
That concerns me, you know, And that's why I feel
like we should know as much as possible. And I
hope this subject begins to be taken seriously because it's important.
(25:33):
It's not just important. It's not the wow wow ufo
you know, aliens who can I don't even care about that.
I care about the fact that there is an intelligent
species that's more evolved than us potentially, uh, that that
could have a huge effect on our direction as a
as as us as human beings.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
And we're going to pause here just for a moment.
We'll be back after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
What it brought to my mind is a clip from
one of the little girls who was being interviewed, I
believe by John mac and she said something to the
effect of the being communicated a message to her. And
I think it was John that was trying to get
her to talk more about how the being communicated to her,
(26:27):
and she ended up saying something that there was a message,
a very specific message. Do you remember what that was?
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Yeah? Yeah. Several of the children reported when they were
in close contact with this one being or there was
another one that reported too, But during that there was
an intense connection between the kids at the playground and
the being that approached them. And during that moment and
(26:59):
that all the kids it was like time just stopped.
But several of the kids got this uh sort of
I don't know how it was. They didn't know how
to explain how it was communicated, but you know, in
in you and I would know that as telepathy, you know,
something that was transferred mind to mind. And the message
(27:23):
was about our own environment. And several not not not
the majority of the witnesses, but several of them, at
least a half a dozen, maybe more, because a lot
of them in the present day are are are not
They feel a little uh nervous to share that. But
(27:45):
the message was about what we're what we were doing
to our planet or what what what our direction was
with our own environment. I don't know. I wonder about
wonder about that a little bit. Underwell, as somebody sees
something traumatic, you tend to think about, you know, particularly
something from out out of this world that might be
(28:09):
a response to to a trent. I mean, you may
think about your own place more I'm just thinking of
alternative reasons why that would come out or it really happened,
you know, or it was really communicated to these kids,
And then the question is why.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And in the footage Randall, he's you know, I think
it is doctor Mack and he's saying, you know, repeatedly saying, well,
did you think about this before? Is this a thought
you've had before?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Why?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Why did you think about this? And he would allow
for more questions in between, then he would ask her again,
is this something you were thinking about or that you
know you've been taught or told, And just repeatedly she's like, no, No,
I didn't think about it until I got home and afterwards.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yeah. And one thing I'd like to go back to
as we're talking about the kid's accounts is something that
I know has the interest of a lot of our
listeners here, and that is that the event as described
by again these more than sixty school children, has aspects
(29:12):
that do not match the stereotypical UFO encounter story that
we have heard. Right, you said there were some unique
things that occurred and that the kids pretty much universally
agreed on some of these things. We've also heard some
reports that there were some small differences in children's accounts.
(29:34):
But what set this apart in your mind from the
typical again I hesitate to use the phrase typical, but
the super familiar, stereotypical UFO encounter story, like what really
stood out?
Speaker 4 (29:51):
I think what really stood out well. Number one was
the fact that they showed up at a playground at
a primary school. It is one big one and sort
of from all the reports were it seemed to be
to have approached the playground and observed the children. There
was no action taken, There was no you know, nobody
(30:16):
was taken or anything there there you know, it was
it was almost like an observation that that that I
find really interesting. The the other thing that's unique is
that they were all wearing black, like a black skin
tight suit, these creatures, And there's only I think three
(30:37):
times in the history of of this phenomena that uh
that's been reported, So that was unique. The message part
is not. I mean some of the research I've done
with other cases, that's not terribly uncommon that people that
(31:02):
have had encounters with these things get some kind of
message about our own environment and our own direction as
a species. So I think, yeah, I mean, those are
the two big things that stand out for me are
are where it took place, how it took place, and
what they were particularly wearing it made it unique. And
(31:26):
of course the message transmission and all that also.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Oh and we should point out most importantly not only
was this on a playground, but this was also and
this will seem unusual to many people, this was during
the day, during a school day, I believe was their
mid morning break at ten am or something.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Yeah, thank you for reminding me that. That's what also
makes it unique.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, yeah, very good.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Yeah, it happened at the ten thirty break in the
morning on a Friday. And yeah, that that also is unique.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
So I want to bring something up here, and it's
a it's a point of contention that I've seen online.
I just want to talk about it. Let's let's let's
just go there, Okay. I have heard some people suggest
that perhaps this was an elaborate prank by some of
the teachers because of a few things. Most of the
(32:25):
teachers were in a meeting at the time, or at
least they I think they were having a teachers meeting
of some sort. There was one teacher perhaps outside that
was manning basically a snack stand kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah, and then it's been positive before that perhaps the
teachers were having fun with the kids and trying to
do something in that way, and it's been done before,
It's been done afterwards where teachers have faked an invasion
for the kids and then they reveal it later. Really,
(33:01):
this is just in your mind. Is there any possibility
that something to that effect occurred that day.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
Of Well, I've seen those reports of teachers at doing
this sort of fake UFO thing that's that started happening
I think into in the two thousand and eight, two
thousand and nine sort of, But the kids were aware
of it. I mean, it wasn't something they you know,
the children, the teachers pranked them on. But I don't
(33:33):
find any I mean I've interview I've talked to all
the teachers and they were shocked themselves. They didn't know
how to deal with it. So there's no validity to
that that. This is none. I mean, I've interviewed all
the teachers. I have all the teachers interviewed in at
the time. There's just no way I can even see
(33:53):
that as a possibility. It's just not there because it
because mainly because the teachers were shocked. I mean they
were they didn't believe the kids. They you know, not
all of them, but many of the teachers initially did
not believe that the kids until the kid's parents started
showing up and saying, look, something happened to my kids.
(34:15):
What happened? You know? And then then it got uh
you know, taken more seriously by the staff, and they
head master and and they they were they became really
convinced that something had occurred. You know, It's it's tough subject.
I mean, they were all of a sudden, they're all
(34:36):
the teachers were were put in a position of, Okay,
these children are reporting this, but we don't believe this,
and you know, it goes to so I don't I
don't find any validity to that argument at all. I've
found nothing there. And I've looked at that, I've looked
at hoaxes, you know, and you have to I got
(34:57):
to say, I don't think enough people do this us
in the UFO field or the unidentified aero phenomena field. Uh,
you know, you got to look at everything. You know,
you can't take a report as just the way it is,
you know, like I looked at everything, like what was
going on with the teachers, what was going on in
(35:18):
the country with their military, with you know, what was
going on in space at the time you got and
what were what where was the sun rising that day?
What was the you know at night, what was the
where was venus? I mean, you all these questions you
need to ask to do a thorough to get a
thorough take on something too, And I think it's really important.
(35:41):
I don't think enough people do that. And the other thing,
you know, like with the teachers, this these children coming
to the teachers. Uh, the teachers had a certain worldview
and this is a lot of things John mac talked
about and others like that. And this is what really
(36:02):
this whole phenomena is about, really is that, you know,
is our worldview. You know that these things aren't supposed
to exist, so we just they're not they they're not real,
they're not they don't exist. So the most of the
(36:23):
teachers were in that worldview, and they were approached by
the children and being challenged in a in a big
way from them by saying, no, this is what we saw.
But the worldview, like for all of us is you know,
we most of us have this worldview that that you know,
(36:46):
there's nothing more than intelligent than us, and we like
to keep that worldview because it makes us feel good,
makes us continue to want to do things. Uh, But
there's different world views, like in Africa, people in the
native populations, that's that's not they don't have the same
(37:06):
world view. They are open to understanding that yeah, we're
we're the you know, dominant species here, or we think
we are, and but there are other other species out
in this vast ocean that we look at at night
(37:27):
love stars. So I just think that the world, our
world views is what's being challenged with this whole phenomena,
Like it's something we really don't want to look at
because it challenges our our ego really well.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
You know you This just brings up so much that
I've been reading recently because of this interview about doctor
John E.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Mack.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
And honestly, I didn't know a whole lot about this gentleman.
And we've discussed before that he he as a PhD
from the Harvard School of Medicine and he's a psychologist psychoanalyst.
He is also a self described parapsychologist and has done
some fascinating work in that field. And for someone with
(38:14):
such accolades and such an education and just a brilliant
person to immerse himself in that field that is so
socially I would say, maligned, maybe socially unaccepted, controversial, controversial
at least yes, correct. For to have someone like this
look into this whole phenomena, this one event, and then
(38:38):
to have that group seek you out to produce a
documentary on this subject, it's just it lends such credibility
to it. I don't know. I think that's one of
the main reasons why I personally am so excited about
this documentary, not just the resources, but because there is
(38:58):
this this man who then kind of became an institution.
Can you tell us a little bit about how like
you you mentioned something about repercussions with John eMac for
his beliefs and kind of what we've been talking about here,
What happened? What were those repercussions?
Speaker 4 (39:18):
I mean, John Mack was he was brilliant and I
think you know you had won the Pulitzer Prize and
I believe it was nineteen seventy seven. He was brilliant
as a psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and I think what happened, this
is my take that he got bored with, you know,
(39:39):
the standard model of looking at a person in a
therapeutic environment and got very interested in anomalous experiences that
people didn't, you know, extraordinary experiences that were difficult to believe.
And I think he was looking at different models of
(40:06):
psychotherapy to explore the unconscious, the unconscious and he then
he had dealt with people who had near death experiences
and witnesses to UFOs or aliens, and and being such
(40:28):
a high level person and he started the Cambridge Hospital.
He was, you know, uh a psychiatrist on at the
Harvard Medical School, a professor, and he started to get
flack from the university for his looking into these these
(40:51):
cases and the repercussions. They really went after him. They
were threatening to take away his tenure and basically fire him,
which is never in the history of Harvard University been done.
There's never been a person threatened like that the whole
entire history of Harvard, and that goes back to the
(41:12):
late sixteen hundreds. So it was really that was very unique.
And they you know, it was a whole not a trial,
but essentially one behind closed doors, and you know, their
concern was that he was you know, that these patients
(41:34):
actually had psychological illnesses yet they displayed none of them.
But that was their angle, that the concern for patients,
and which is understandably I could totally understand their angle.
But honestly, my take on it now as I felt
like they were really trying to tarnish his reputation.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
And intimidate him. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
Yeah, And you know, I he he had lot, you
know through this whole Harvard inquisition, which was had many
people involved, including Alan Dershowitz, and you know it's just
it's a cast of of some famous people, and you
know that he had lost his circle of friends at Harvard.
(42:18):
Nobody wanted to be around him, you know, during this time.
And so I think the Harvard it really achieved a
goal in sort of just you know, hurting his credibility.
So it's quite a hero's journey in a way. I
mean it was the man, a man who was had
(42:42):
a conviction that these people are are telling the truth.
You know, different people that are reported, including these children
in Africa, they're telling the truth, and what does that mean?
Asking the question of what does that mean? If this
is the truth and this is not something psychological, what
does that mean for us as a species?
Speaker 2 (43:04):
And we're gonna take a quick break. We're just gonna pause.
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Regardless of how someone encounters this story or what they
personally believe, right, the crux of the issue is the following.
There are things that have yet to be explained about
this event, which was not that long ago. I mean,
(43:37):
maybe we're dating ourselves a little bit here, but nineteen
ninety four is that you know, it's it's the past,
but it's relatively recent, and there are still things that
we can find out through rigorous investigation, through on the
ground interviews, through the work that you are doing. But
all of it leads us to again the question you
(43:59):
just positive, which is what does this mean? What does
this mean for the future? What will humanity overall discover
from this event? And you know, we haven't even we
haven't touched on the the other events across the world
that you have mentioned that you alluded to that have
(44:22):
some of the same threads running through them, right, So
this is a question that we at least I don't
know if you've got something up your sleeve, mat but
This is a question that we don't have the answer to, Yetta,
at least us.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
There's some stuff in here, but I don't think it's
answers to that question though.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Ah Well, what we would like to do is, I
guess our next question for the show here then, is
to ask if you could tell us a little more
about the state of the documentary as it stands now,
but what our listeners can do to help and where
(45:03):
they can learn more about the piece.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Sure, can I say one thing first?
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
So during this filming and interviewing, I mean, I've traveled
to Africa three times and all over Europe finding all
these witnesses in the United States, Canada, you know, I've
been approached by several people, you know, dozens and dozens
of people that have heard I'm doing a movie about
(45:31):
UFOs and they come and they share their experience with me,
and you know not and and these are people this
is what always strikes me. There are people that have
I mean, they come to me and they say, don't
tell anybody, because I haven't told anybody, or they've only
told their immediate family, and they share these stories that
(45:52):
nobody knows about. They're just they keep it to themselves.
They're afraid of ridicule, They're afraid of you know, Uh,
they're afraid of a lot of things to uh to
be to for it somehow to go public, afraid of
losing their friends, all kinds of fears. Yet their stories
(46:13):
are you know, they sound and their feelings express something
really happened. I just find that heartbreaking in a way
that we there's this whole culture out there that is
not being heard, that you don't see at UFO conferences,
that you don't see anywhere. They've just had these experiences
(46:36):
and they're keeping it to themselves and that and if
if it's just considering the number that I've run into
and just doing the math of how many people there
has to be like that, uh, is just it's a
lot of It's a lot of people that could be
helping us solve this mystery, and there just doesn't seem
(46:59):
to be enough of a drive from us or our
media or our culture to really want to find out
what's going on here. Because I think it's pretty important
that we that we do try to understand it and
try to find out more Because as far as I
want to personally, I want to know what's going on.
(47:22):
I want to know what situation humanity's in, like, I
want to know that if there's something out there, I
really want to know about it. I want to know
how it can impact me. I want to know what
I should be afraid of or a need to be
afraid of. I don't know, I just I or not,
but I would like as much information as possible. I
(47:43):
know about all the wildlife that live in the forest
that I'm in, and I'm very curious, you know, to
find out a lot about them. If there's something else
out there, it's it's another form of wildlife just happens
to be smarter than us. I want to know it's
my much as possible, particularly because it's smarter than me.
(48:03):
So I don't know, I just it just strikes me
that I, you know, I'll be glad when the day comes,
and it will come when universities have programs that are
really doing intense research about this, you know, and eliminating
the Charlatans and whatever the BS stories that are out
there and getting to the real stories and piecing this
(48:25):
puzzle together because we need to know.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Agreed, Okay, Randall, So tell us tell us how we
can learn more about the Aerial Phenomenon documentary. Where can
we learn about it? Where can we watch a trailer
for it? When do you think it's coming out? Just
tell us everything.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Okay, So the film we're at a rough cut right now,
working toward a final. It's it's fantastic. I mean, I
can't say enough, and it's my I wouldn't usually be that.
I'm just really excited because it took It's taken a
long time, but I've done it right. I've gotten some
of the best people to work on it, and I've got
(49:03):
an editor that worked with Michael Moore, did Fahrenheit nine
to eleven, did Siico, and has done other brilliant films.
So I've gotten really great people to work on it,
and we're working toward a final. You can check it
out at Aerial Phenomenon dot com. We have a trailer there,
(49:26):
and we have a trailer where Dan Aykroyd plugs the
film and he's very aware of this case and he
was just wonderful supporting the just trying to get this
the word about this film out there. But you can
see quite quite a bit of information on the site.
We're still taking donations because it's been you know, it's
(49:47):
been a project from the heart kind of thing, and
it's been up and down. You know. We get funding
and then the funding stops, and then I go back
to work to pay for more filmmaking, more editing. It's
it's been hard to uh, you know, when you don't
have the funding right there and you have to play
(50:08):
all these roles to uh to keep it moving, and
sometimes the production stops and then get we move ahead again,
and then it stops again. Because anyway, it's been a
challenge for sure. But so yeah, we're looking at for
being at a final within three months. So it's coming.
(50:29):
It's coming soon. And I think the reaction because the
other thing, this is not really a film about UFOs
in a sense. I mean, it is a film about
this incident, but it's it's a lot also about what
happens to people, you know, what people go through when
(50:51):
they have reported something like this and and how it
sticks with them, and that's it's kind of a lot
of different things. But it's not your traditional by any
sense UFO film at all. It's very mainstream as far
as a story, and there's really a lot about the people,
(51:12):
you know, not so much about the aliens or the
wu woo stuff about UFOs, and I kind of think
that's where the conversation needs to go, is in us
getting out out sort of out of the wu Woo
flash like aliens, aliens, alien stage two? Okay, well, you
know what are we looking at?
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Here?
Speaker 4 (51:32):
Is it? What is it? You know, if it's an
alien or some other creature from another planet, it's another
animal basically, you know what I mean. So I think
it would be I really would like to work toward
changing the conversation to so we can get to it,
(51:52):
so he can really get to the heart of heart
of this matter issue and learn from it, find out
what it is. And you know, the recent things that
have happened that came out in the New York Times
with the military was absolutely fascinating. I don't know if
you guys aware of that.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
Yeah, we just did a couple of interviews about that.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yeah, the Pentagon Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program, I believe
with Lewis Selesando. Yeah, that was a that was a
massive surprise to I think everybody who even who even
casually follows this sort of news.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
What an about face, you know, there's a dude named
Jeremy Corbell that we talked to you recently about that.
Speaker 4 (52:40):
Oh I just met him.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah, fascinating, great, fascinating guy. Uh well, okay, look, Randall, I,
like many people listening right now, am very excited to
watch the Aerial Phenomenon. I know Ben is too.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Yeah, we'll go ahead and also post the trailer that
you can find when you're done with this podcast. You
can check it out on our Instagram or Facebook and
our Twitter.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Yeah, we'll put that out there now. By the way,
we are conspiracy stuff at Twitter and Facebook and conspiracy
stuff show on Instagram. If you're out there and you
want to, you know, discuss this project further and again,
go to aeriel that's a r i e. L phenomenon
dot com.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
Yeah, and there you can find more information about the documentary.
You can watch the trailer, you can see some of
the news. You can also contact the project directly with questions.
And you know, one thing that one thing that I
think everyone listening should absolutely take away from this episode
(53:47):
is a point that you brought up, Randle, that there
are so many people that you have met who feel
that they have experienced something that would that they are
unable to communicate with the world because of fear of
social repercussions, right or social stigma. With that, and the
(54:11):
most one of the most important things to remember here
is that if you were listening and you feel that
some sort of event has happened to you, if you
feel that you do not have a voice regarding this,
or that you do not have the ability to share it,
the good news is we exist. Well, the good news
is that you are. You know that you are not
(54:33):
existing in isolation. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions,
of people around the globe who have experienced something that
they feel they may not be able to explain, and
it is very important to remember that no person exists
in isolation. And depending on depending on what people may
(54:57):
ultimately find out about the aerial finace coming on and
other sightings of this kind, perhaps our species also is
not an island and does not exist in isolation. I'm
waxing a little poetic. I apologize, I apologize.
Speaker 4 (55:11):
I'm glad you said that though. I think that's that's
really important that people don't feel alone, you know, m
because it's what the people I've met, it's it's it's
hard that's what makes it hard, you know. They it
just sits in themselves alone, and it's yeah, all kinds
of things can happen from that place.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Yeah yeah. So thank you so much Randall for joining
us today for this and thank you for all the
work you're doing on you know, this project. We're again,
we're very excited to see it and we can't wait
to see how it turns out. And you know, if
you want to descend us, maybe a screener or something,
I'm saying, Ben, Ben and I are here and you know.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
You're doing the heart well in all in all seriousness, yes,
thank you so much for your time, both on our
behalf and on behalf of our fellow listeners out there
in the audience. And if you are listening and thinking
I have a story to communicate, I would like to
tell somebody I know something that I haven't shared with
(56:12):
the world yet. You, of course, can reach out to us.
We would love to hear from you. You are the
most important part of this show. Go ahead and send
us a missive, a communicate on your social media platform
of choice, or if none of that.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
And that's the end of this classic episode. If you
have any thoughts or questions about this episode. You can
get into contact with us in a number of different ways.
One of the best is to give us a call.
Our number is one eight three three STDWYTK. If you
don't want to do that, you can send us a
good old fashioned email.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (56:53):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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