November 8, 2024 • 57 mins
Until the day we're able to manufacture affordable, reliable organs from scratch, organ transplants will remain the only hope for millions of sick and dying people across the planet. For this reason, organs have been a big business for decades -- and not all aspects of the business are legal. For years rumors have been brewing about the organ trade in China. Why is the waiting time for a transplant so low? Where are all these organs actually coming from? The answer may terrify you. Strap in as the guys dive into the stuff China doesn't want you to know about the organ trade in tonight's Classic episode -- and don't forget to check out our (extremely creepy) video on YouTube.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, fellow conspiracy realists, think you as always so much
for tuning in. We are returning to you with a
classic episode that is not for the faint of heart.
We do have, I think, an ethical responsibility to mention
that this contains graphic descriptions of disturbing and very real conspiracies.
(00:22):
We called it the Red Market. It's about the organ trade,
not the organ trail. We did this in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
You know, I commented off Mike, this is one of
my favorites, which I don't know what that says about me.
I just I've always been fascinated by the black market
trading of human organs.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
There's a Korean film from the early.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Two thousands called Sympathy for Mister Vengeance that really got
my mind whirling.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
As far as like this type of crime.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I think I probably mentioned that on the episode as well,
but it's really does. It is a whole world that
you might not be aware of, blissfully, and we're about
to take you down that particular bloody rabbit hole.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Yeah. This is also one of my favorite videos we
ever made, guys, when we went on a little road
trip to the Guide Stones and we made a video
in the car Ben talking about the red Market, and
it was awesome. You did a drive and make a
video which was probably.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
We never explained it.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
We do explain it, but we also just it was
a little dangerous. You were just driving and being awesome
on camera and I don't know how you did both
at the same time, but you pulled it off. But
great video. Check it out on the YouTube channel. Did
you guys hear about this guy in Kentucky from It's
a story that is just coming out now, but it
happened in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Most got his organs almost wasted. Yeah, he almost that.
He was an organ donor, yes, and it's legal for
people to take your organs as an organ donor if
you are dead.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Yes, And he was declared brain dead after he over dosed.
But then as he was being wheeled in to have
his organs taken out, he was attempting to move his
eyes around and let people know he was awake. His
family noticed. Doctors tell him, no, no, that's just normal.
That's what happens. He gets on the O R table
he's being prepped, and then he starts flailing around on
(02:18):
the table and the surgeons are like, guys, we can't
do this, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
The still moving Yeah. Usually this is a part of
why this classic episode resonates with us so much tonight, folks,
as you listen with us and explore this with us,
it is possible that the government of China is executing
(02:47):
prisoners and political or religious dissidents and then selling their organs.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
And the big scary takeaway in this episode the remember
the thing we talked about is where else could it
be happening?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
And how?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Well, let's jump right into the episode, guys.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Want you to know.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
They call me Ben and you are you? And that
makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Today's
podcast comes oddly enough, from a pretty tasteless joke that
we made a while back, and I don't remember if
it made it to the air.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
It did.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, we were joking about the Oregon Trail because someone
suggested we covered the topic of illegal organ trafficking, which
is a great suggestion.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, And then we all died of dysentery.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And then we all die of dysentery in the middle.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Of a spoiler alert.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, because we were dumb enough to start the game
as farmers. Oh they never do that, way harder. But yeah,
we were kicking around, just terrible titles, and one of
those was, of course.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
The organ trail. The organ Well, if you say it
like that, yeah, it can go either way.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Well, title aside, this is I don't apologize for that
title pn. I didn't. I just said title aside. Okay,
So we think this is a complex, global and continual
phenomenon and it is worth exploring in depth because, aside
(04:45):
from some maybe scare pieces that pop up at a
slow day in the news cycle, this is not really
examined and the causes of it aren't examined as well.
There is a lot of stuff they don't want you
to know about organ transplants, the organ trade in general,
what has been called the red market. So at first
(05:10):
I wanted to ask you, guys, Matt Noll, those are
our real names. Sorry for everyone. Should we apologize for
that one?
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
That's a good point, So have you guys ever known
or been acquainted with someone who received an organ transplant.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
I could not come up with a good example when
I was going back through my life.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
If you count bone marrow, which I think you should, Yeah,
then yes, I know. It's an intense process as far
as like getting on a list, getting matched with the
right candidate, and then actually getting the procedure done and
having everything booked because it is a very timely process.
You know, once everything goes through, and there's a lot
of uncertainty, and you even hear stories about people trying
(05:55):
to get higher up on the list by you know,
grease and some palms here and there, you know, right,
So I mean there's a lot at stake obviously, and
I won't say who this person was just to you know,
maintain their their privacy, but yeah, it was it was
very nerve nerve wracking, just wondering when it was going
to happen, when it was going to go through, and
(06:16):
when it did go through, if everything was going to
work out correctly.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Mm hmmm, yeah, because even with everything going as well
as possible, there's still, ah, there's still a significant risk.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Sure, and it's not like if that one doesn't work out.
They're just going to give you another one. I mean,
that's the one that you get, and then if it
doesn't work out, if you make it, you have to
start the whole process over it.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
So that is a terrifying prospect. Let's let's talk about
organs first, because, as you know, this podcast is part
of how stuff works. So we want to start at
the most basic thing. Organs. There are what are the
few things that everybody has in common? Everyone who is
involved with this show, we all have organs.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Yes, everyone listening to the show hopefully has organs.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Maybe there's some sort of machine consciousness listening there, and
that gets into a conversation about what would constitute an organ.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Yeah, maybe Dick Cheney is listening with his robotic heart
that just constantly circulates blood instead of pumping.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
That's a pacemaker. That's not, isn't it. I thought it was.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
It's not. He doesn't have a pacemaker anymore. Now it's
just a constant flow of blood. There's no he has
no heartbeat.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Oh, I thought you just meant he was like a
heartless individual. I thought you were, Well.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Yeah, no, no, I'm not rioffing this is true, But
but I'm also implying certain certain ways.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
There are levels to this statement. Well, I want one
of those.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Cheney charming person That's true.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
You usually say that as.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Soon as I'm smiling. I'm doing it just just just
for the for folks listening, I am doing a big
chess or cat grin here.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
I know.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Sometimes I say things like I mean them, and then
I'm smiling or making a face that these guys and
you guys don't see that. So you may think I
have quite an odd variety of opinions out there in
podcast Lamba. Just to set the record straight, you know,
Dick Cheney's the Prince going.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Noe Brown is a huge Dick Cheney fan. So, by
the strictest definition and in biology, biologically speaking, outside of
the world of music, an organ is just a group
of tissues in a living organism that have been adapted
to perform a specific function. Sounds simple, don't Yeah, it
(08:39):
sounds pretty simple. You have a heart, and your heart
has like one main job, right.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Sure, same with your liver, your kidneys, your eyes, all
of the parts. I think there are seventy eight official organs.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Well by that by it depends again on the definition
and be around seventy eight. People will argue back and
forth what does or does not constitute a organ entire.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
What I find meat though, is that these organs are
divided into two very distinct categories. All the ones we
mentioned are considered vital organs, which are organs that are
absolutely essential for maintaining your health and you know, your life. Ultimately.
These are the kinds of things like your heart, your brain,
your kidneys, your liver, things that perform processes that you
(09:25):
need done in order to live in the environment that we.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Yeah, I think the besides the eyes, I mentioned the eyes,
that's true, but I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Would you consider eye as part of this second category
vestigial organs, which is no way yeah either, well.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
I I don't know. I don't know. I think you
would probably get arguments for that.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I suppose you could say, maybe we could live in
a society or we have evolved beyond the need of
our eyes, but you'd certainly put you at a disadvantage.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Sure, and right now society has evolved to make something
like blindness or deafness not a death sentence. But people
were simply animals in the.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Wild gather type scenario, like you d be sunk.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
It'd be it would be more difficult, for sure. And
that's that's one of the that's one of the great
benefits of the the whole human experiment. Right. But well,
let's talk about these other organs vestigial right, vestigial organs.
This would be something that is a rudimentary structure in
us that corresponds to a functional structure in another animal. Right,
(10:32):
sometimes described as the lower animals, which I think is
hugely condescending and unfair. But we have all kinds.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Of examples of this, right, What about things like tonsils
or like an appendix.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, wisdom teeth or maybe a tail. Yes, people are
born sometimes with the tail.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Perhaps male nipples.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Oh man, whoa, I'm so tired of like it used
to really bother me. It's like, why are these here?
Is it no purpose?
Speaker 4 (11:03):
You guys aren't using them right, I mean not like
right now. No, I'm just saying you're not using them correctly.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Oh, I see, we're a family show, did you guys see?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
I just yeah, really fast? Okay? Did you see the
article about the Atlanta Native couple Josh and Chuck posted
this quick thing? A woman who left her job to
find a male partner, oh to to breastfeeds feed like adults,
And this is apparently a huge thing.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Is it like a like a fetishy thing?
Speaker 4 (11:37):
I think it is?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
OK?
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, but he doesn't have some sort of strange disorder
that makes him some sort of breast milk vampire.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Does she like have to burp him and stuff?
Speaker 4 (11:49):
I don't know, but but I did some looking into
this story, and it appears that there's a whole counterculture
of people who do this, who believe that there are
massive health benefits for both.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Parties, people who say that their health benefits.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, and perhaps that is an episode for another day.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
And perhaps perhaps you are right, And hey, it's tough
to be happy, So I wish them the best of luck.
It sounds like it's consensual returning to organs. So we've
got these things. We need many of them. There's some
that we don't particularly need need to live, right.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
You can go without acadney, you know both.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
You could go without wisdom teeth, right, sure, So what
do you do when the important ones fail? The ones
that are not like add on packages to the car
that is your body, but the stuff that's like the
engine and the transmission, well, for thousands and thousands and
thousands of years. When people's organs failed, they died. Yep,
(12:51):
that was it, sometimes quickly, sometimes in prolonged, excruciatingly painful ways.
The human body. To bring it to our current capitalists societ,
the human body was a product with planned obsolescence, no warranties,
and no returns, no exchanges either.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
And that's not to say that over the years throughout
history medical science hasn't been attempting to replace these things
in dying humans when their heart is giving out or
their liver is dying or something like that. We've attempted
humans many times to try and replace these things.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, not you, Nolan, me, but fellow members of our
species have been experimenting with organ transplants since at least
the seventeenth century, in animals and in humans. And along
the way there were many, many, many gruesome, horrific and
(13:50):
tragic failures.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
A lot of them we don't even know about because
they were never written down.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Right, But we do have early examples.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Yeah, sixteen sixty eight, a bone graft was attempted using
a dog's skull and actually successfully attached this graft to
a human's head.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah yeah, And we see the animal transplants, the practice
of putting animal components into a human body, where we're
not unheard of.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Well, I mean at the time, it probably seemed like
a logical jump to make you know, why not, let's
just give it a shot.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
And that could have also been at the uh what
if stage?
Speaker 4 (14:36):
Yeah, sure, especially if you're getting desperate trying to save somebody,
I mean, and if someone is on their last legs,
you'd try anything, and in that desperation. In nineteen oh five,
there were some doctors who took slices of a rabbit kidney.
They put it into a child and it did seem
to improve kidney function, at least for a little while. Unfortunately,
(14:57):
the child did die shortly after that from from pulmonary congestion.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Right. And then in the same year nineteen o five,
doctors managed to transplant a cornea into the damaged eye
of a laborer, restoring his sight.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
That's that, to me is crazy to think about in
nineteen oh five, like any kind of eye surgery back then.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
That's like buy an a lottery ticket every day for
a week and winning.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Then in nineteen oh six we have a French surgeon
Matteo Jubilet who attempted to save two patients' lives they
were suffering from renal failure by transplanting goat kidney into
one of the patients and a pig kidney into the other,
and they died shortly thereafter work. And I think what
the big takeaway is from a lot of these early
examples is that these organs are incredibly specific. They and
(15:54):
this just goes into the whole idea of being on
a transplant list or like you have to get just
the right one. It has to match your type of
as to there are a lot of factors involved that
you know will make this work, otherwise your body will
literally reject.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
This organ right in this There were other attempts through
the thirties and on and on up and with each
of these, with each of these failures, there were hard
lessons learned, and it looked like it maybe it might
be something that was just going to be beyond the
bounds of reliable medical technology and science, at least that
(16:30):
is until the first successful organ transplant in December of
nineteen fifty four.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Yeah, it was this guy named Ronald Herrick. He was
the first one. He had a successful transplant procedure. Pretty awesome.
It was. It's a cool story too, actually, and there's
a house Stuff Works article on organ donation where you
can find this story. He had a twin brother named Richard,
and one of his you know, his kidneys were failing,
(16:57):
and his brother basically decided, well, what if I give
one of my kidneys? And the doctor saw this was
really interesting because it hadn't been successful in the past,
but because their genetics were so close, almost identical, they
thought perhaps it would work. So the doctors didn't have
(17:18):
much faith that this would actually be carried out. Even
though you know, they have faith in themselves and being
able to make the procedure happen, they don't think it
will the organ itself will take. The great thing is
that it did work. Both of them survives and they
went on to live happily ever after, right or did they?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:41):
I mean that part. We're kidding on that part. No
one does that. But they did. Okay, Yeah, they did great,
they both recovered at least.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
What a Debbie Downer you are, sir?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Uh, yeah, I guess I'm more what's a word for
downer that starts with a bee? So we could do
it like Benji bad attitude.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
No, that's terrible. Well, that's why you're right.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
You're absolutely right, and there's no reason to be down,
is there? Because this worked very well and after this
watershed moment, more and more successful transplants took place. So today,
at least in the US and really globally, if you
are someone with enough money and enough luck and enough opportunity,
(18:33):
you really can get a second chance at life with
a new organ. We cannot emphasize how amazing this is
and how technology still since I'm going to try to
be positive for the rest of the podcast, Nation, I
appreciate it to you. We still know that this medical
technology continues to evolve at a breakneck pace, you know,
(18:56):
doing amazing things. If a child, for a child born
today the day you're hearing this, by the time they
are eighteen, it is quite possible that they will be
able to buy grown organs grown in a lab, not
taken from another person, or to take possibly organs from
(19:19):
genetically modified animals or entirely entirely synthetic ye things. However,
we're not there yet at this point, yours, the best
and only way that you can get another organ is
by getting it from another person. Many people volunteer to
(19:41):
donate their own organs, like the twin we mentioned earlier,
either a kidney or you know, you can live with
one kidney, like you said, Noel.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
You can chop a liver almost in half and it
will regenerate.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, and it'll regenerate almost as full size. Or if
you are a person with the driver's license in the US,
you are incentivized to be an organ donor could you
get a little discount yep. And what they do is
they just say, well, if the worst thing happens, the
worst thing for you at least, then something great might
(20:15):
happen for some other people.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Which is a pretty terrifying thought. But at the same time,
you know, if you're dead, depending on your religious and
spiritual beliefs, then hey, who cares, somebody else can use it.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
You can't take them with you.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You know, And arguably you could say this is a
form of extending someone's life if you are if a
piece of you lives on in someone else.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Absolutely, The pharaohs of Egypt would probably disagree though, I mean,
they had all of their organs pulled out and put
into jars and preserved. Yeah, in their tombs, you know,
so that they could have them in the actual life.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
And that was part of the that was part of
the belief system at the time, you know. And there
there's still some there's still some religions and belief systems
that do not allow for organ donation, like the aroma
don't practice it because they believe you need your physical
body and all its components for at least the first year.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Yeah, because you have to retrace your steps.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Right, and now we know, now we know that this
this stuff does work. It gives the average person a
chance to be a hero and should be quite candid,
this is a situation where people need heroes. Between nineteen
ninety eight and two thousand and eight, there were more
(21:37):
than ninety one thousand living donations. It's donations from somebody
who gave theory will survive after. In two thousand and six,
nearly forty six percent of organ donors we're living donors.
So that accounts for about twenty one point six percent
of all organs donated. So, like Matt you said, you
(21:59):
can donate part your liver and live and donate part
of a lung, part of your pancreas. You can donate
a whole kidney, yeah, or part of your intestines.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
You do have to be in pretty darn good health
to make a donation like this. Oh. I mean, it
is true that there are only a few prohibitive factors
that could stop you certain diseases, being HIV positive or
something like that. But you know, still, I don't think
anyone would want my liver, probably, Ben.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Do we have a stat about how often direct family
members are the ones that are doing the donation, because
that would just seem to me that would sure save
a lot of this process lists and the waiting lists
search for compatibility.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Well, we don't have that exactly, but we do know
according to the American Transplant Foundation that of about five
thousand living donations that occur that they watched, only one
in four of the donors was not biologically related to
the recipient, at least from their perspective.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It's not legal to buy or sell organs here in
the US for transplant, but it is legal to buy
and sell them for research purposes. So as long as
you say, well, sorry, uncle Sam, this is not for me.
I am doing a science project, and I We've got
(23:25):
a couple more stats if you want. According to the
Department of Health and Human Services, more than two thousand
new names are added to the national waiting list for
organ transplants and to get that every month and every day,
the day you are listening to this podcast, ladies and gentlemen,
(23:47):
in the US alone, about eighteen people die while waiting
for an organ transplant. So these people, these voluntary donors,
living or dead, are doing terrific, wonderful and much needed.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Work and we need more.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
But here's the thing, not all of these donors are volunteers.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
As it turns out, quite a few of them are victims.
And we'll get more into that after we take a
quick break.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
So, as you can tell from the statistics we covered
earlier everything that we've talked about thus far, the need
for organs far outweighs the supply for organs.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
And what happens then there is a basically a golf
that needs to be filled. And as we know, when
there's money to be made, people are going to come
along and fill that golf.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
Yeah, when's when supply and demand don't meet, there's going
to be profit. And that's what we see.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And the question becomes a essential you know what I mean?
This is not well, I steal a Selica or an
Lantra from someone because I want a Selica or an Lantra,
or God forbid a Honda Odyssey, which is not worth it.
This is a question of survival. If you are sitting
(25:19):
next to someone listening to this, and you are close
to that person, look at each other. What would you
do to keep them alive? Would you donate your kidney?
If given the opportunity, would you find them a heart?
The average heart will beat approximately two point five billion
times in the course of an average person's life. So
(25:43):
now you need to start thinking about the age of
this heart you would procure, because honestly, you'll get more
mileage the younger. That transplant source is Wow, Ben Well,
it's true. Unfortunately, it's true, and let's be honest. This
is just my personal opinion here. Some of the results
(26:05):
of this come about because the American medical system is
a joke without a punchline. People are dying due to
a phenomenally byzantine system of jacked up prices for operations
and medicines that would be affordable in many other countries.
(26:25):
This is again, this is just my opinion, but there
are numerous facts that point to the point to a
very poor performance on the part of the US medical
system in comparison to the rest of the developed world.
I mean, if we are considering the entire population, if
we're only considering the people who can pay the price tag,
(26:47):
then the US medical system is the best in the world.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
And look at the examples. You see if people that
you know are in the hospital for three or four
days and then their insurance gets cut off or like
you know, it maxes out, and they're left with like
a ten thousand dollars bill for being the hospital for
a few days just so they can.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Breathe for a fifty thousand dollars bill of course, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Exactly right, and then be in debt for the rest
of their lives or bankrupt. Right. So this I mean,
and that maybe is a subject. I know, it's a
touchy one for a lot of people. So that will
perhaps be a subject of a future show. I don't
know what you guys think. And of course we can
anticipate the arguments. People say, well, medical care is not free.
That is true, and that's something we can explore in
(27:28):
a future episode. Right now, in the case of kidneys,
which are by far one of the most common organs
transplant donated harvested traffic, only seventeen percent of the annual
demand is being met, and due to again skyrocketing medical
cost the vast majority of US citizens have virtually no
(27:49):
way of affording a living donor. So make no mistake,
legal organ transplants, like many other operations, are are overwhelmingly
out of the reach of a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Not to mention, maybe you're just so far down the list. Yes,
it's just the time of this is not on your side.
People will do desperate things in times of this kind
of stress.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, that's a really good point, because even if we're
talking about people who have enough capital or income to
to have the best medical care in the world right
and maybe survive as long as they can on the list,
then there's some things you know, you just can't legally buy.
So imagine, imagine, Matt, that you are a multi millionaire,
(28:38):
but nope, but you can't. You can't afford this legal avenue,
and that leaves you with two options.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Yeah, I guess I would die or I would find
a way to get one.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Guess which one people tend to choose.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
I'm guessing they just take kidneys.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
According to the UN, there are three broad categories of
organ trafficking. Number one are cases involving traffickers that force
or actually deceive victims into giving up an organ. Example
might be a person's kidnapped, their organ is harvested.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Or or this is the one that everyone knows from
the movies, right, you meet a charming stranger, a great
cool guy or girl or group of people, and you
party a little harder than you intended and the next
thing you know.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah, you wake up in a tub of ice in
the hotel and there's some staples on your side.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
That's chilling. I talked to you guys about this before
the show the movie Sympathy for Mister Vengeance. I think
this is a it's a really really dark movie. It's
beautifully made, though not but it's for kids. But it
involves this very thing, and it points to some of
the conditions that might lead someone to enter into an
even an agreement with these type of folks. Where one
(30:06):
of the main characters has a sister who needs I
believe it's a kidney, and she's on this waiting list
but it's not working out and it's taking too long
and she's not doing well. So the main character finds
these gangsters and agrees with them, like, Okay, I'm gonna
you're gonna take out my kidney and we're going to
do the operation. Instead, they knock him out, take his
(30:29):
kidney and his money, and disappear.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Right, And this is common enough to be a trope
in a lot of fiction as far as how often
it actually happens that way in real life, it's it's
tough to find proof. But that's not the only case.
You said, there are three categories.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Right, So the second category involves cases where victims formally
or informally agree to sell an organ and then are
cheated out of money. So the thing for the film
is almost a combination of the two. Are then cheated
out of the money or paid less than promised and threatened,
you know totally.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
You'll take what we give you exactly. You're lucky to
leave with your life.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. These are opportunistic, manipulative
folks that are that are doing these things. They are
finding people in their time of need, their time of
most desperation. Yeah, and you know, turning the screws on
the criminals.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
Yeah. Well, and sometimes it even does happen voluntarily where
someone will fly to Turkey or something to give their
their kidney four or five thousand dollars, you know, four
ten thousand dollars US. Meanwhile, the person who is taking
the kidney is going to make ten times that, twenty
times that.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Yeah, And as as problematic as Ben said as are
medical system is at least you do have some assurances
and you know everything's documented and you know nothing like that.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Whatever happen, and hopefully your chances of survival are much
higher because it's cleaner and they're they're better standards for care.
But there's there's another thing we have to say here.
I don't want to jump I have too far other
than to say there is a vast criminal element to this.
And this is something that happens. Whenever something is illegal
(32:16):
the people are going to do. There will be, as
you said, no opportunistic people involved. Imagine having a gambling debt.
You're in over your head, you have no hope of
paying this off within the time allotted to you. And
then Noel, let's say I have a gambling debt to you.
Let's say what's a massive amount of money to owe
(32:37):
for gambling.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
One million dollars.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Okay, So I had a wild night in Macau, and
now I owe you, the shadowy leader of the underworld,
one million dollars. And you told me I have forty
eight hours, it's our forty seven, and I'm dragged you
into whatever palatial you have sure, And and then you
(33:03):
make it very clear that you're you're fine with killing me,
but you give me a chance. You tell me I
can give up, you know, my kidney or part of
my lung or my liver. And of course people are
going to say yes to something like that. It's horrific,
but they will. And then there's the third case, which
to me is one of the saddest.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
I have to say. Guys, in this example, it would
be it would make a lot more sense if it
was maybe one hundred thousand dollars, because they would make
that if you owed a million dollars.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, they would just kill me and take and harvest.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Because they could. They could pretty much make that from
your entire body.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
I would go to the chop shop. Yikes, don't do it, No,
don't do it. Tell me, I've never started gambling. I've
never gambled, and I don't intend to start now because
I am frightened by this scenario.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
No, it's true. I mean even you know, I've played
some slots here and there, but same don't think I
could ever.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Go bewn that. I thought you were about to say. No,
it's true. I guess I would have.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
To do that. Well, you know, when faced with that
situation and I have to take care of my investment.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Oh oh yeah, Ice Cold, I respect you though. Number three,
This is perhaps one of the saddest.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Yes. The third example is when a vulnerable person receives
treatment for some ailment, perhaps it's real, perhaps it's not,
only to find when they come out of surgery or
whatever procedure they went through, they find that one or
more of their organs have been removed during the operation,
and it ranges from what organs are taken in this procedure.
(34:45):
And this is one of the more terrifying. I mean,
these are all terrifying, but this one to me. Trusting
someone going into a surgery or something like that only
to find that something completely different has happened. Yikes.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
And we're talking about completely enfranchised people that have no recourse,
migrant workers, homeless people, the impoverished, the illiterate. They are
just easy targets for these folks who want to prey
on the fact that they have no one to protect them.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
And they can be any age, they can be any
you know, cree, race, ethnicity, whatever sort of label you
want to attach to an example of the human species.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
As long as they got the goods and by that
I mean kidneys, livers, any of these organs that are
you know, ultimately pretty easy to remove in a bench,
which is horrifying in and of itself, especially when you
consider that you know, these are not done in sanitary conditions,
These are not done.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
In clean rooms, you know, well, yeah, And the fact
that they could be removed and then you can still
live depending on how you were treated after and what
type of process they took to actually remove it and
then fix you up, which is that to me is awful.
Can you imagine living after that just happening to you,
(36:02):
the PTSD that you would experience in your life.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
I personally would be thrilled to be alive, sure, because
I think at the time and money you save if
you're working with volume on sutures, on cleaning.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Up are you saying I mean, I'm trying to just
figure out why it's in their best interest to leave
these people alive in the first place.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I think that a lot of it is because it
is a transaction, you know, So if it's a transaction,
then it's ultimately a business. And if the business model
is you know, if you establish consistency, people will only
come back to you or only go pay you if
(36:48):
they know they're going to live. Yeah. So if we're
around the street turns out that you just kill people
and take their organs, which we do have cases of that,
then people aren't going to go to you with their
debts or their blood money of one sort or another.
And okay, so we said earlier that kidneys make up
seventy five percent of this illegal organ trade. But do
(37:13):
you know why. It's not just because you can take
one and sell, although I think that's a huge part
of it. It's also because of the rising rates of diabetes,
high blood pressure, heart problems and such across the globe.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yeah, so you need those the filtration system that are
the kidneys which are failing across the board.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
And for everyone who might think this is a strange
thing for us to cover, we would argue that this
is an example of not one, but multiple international conspiracies,
not theories. And again, a conspiracy just means people working
together in secret toward a common goal. Organized crime necessitates conspiracies.
(37:57):
This involves recruiters, people who transport or the patient, underground,
medical staff, middleman contractors, buyers, and banks that store the
organs because remember, organs don't keep and a lot of
people throughout the history of organ transplants have died because
an organ was pulled from a cadaver that have been
(38:19):
dead for hours. You know, So this stuff is on
ice and on the good side, on the legal side,
there's this amazing logistics chain of of how people move
an organ and keep it stored on ice across the
country or across the ocean to save someone's life. And
(38:41):
this can be a good thing.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
It can be a good thing for the law side.
The problem is, because these networks are so large, when
they get exposed, it will a lot of times be
one arm or one one section of a network, and
you never really get to see the larger picture because
you know, when you're operating underground like this, you just
(39:03):
pick up shop and get out of there. If there
isn't a good paper trail.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Right, Yeah, So let's talk about some facts about organ trafficking.
So I'll start with one. Organ trafficking accounts for five
to ten percent of all kidney transplants worldwide.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Is mind blowing to me.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
That's like saying illegal car sales account for ten percent
of all cars purchased, you know in the US.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Or some you just wouldn't ever associate that, I don't know.
Who is interesting?
Speaker 4 (39:38):
And according to the WHO, the World Health Organization, the
illegal trade and kidneys has risen to a level that
an estimated ten thousand black market operations involving purchased human
organs now take place every year. And according to a
couple of organizations organ Failure Solutions, Organs Watch, and EESOT,
(40:00):
the typical organ donor is a male about twenty eight
point nine, let's say twenty nine years old, with an
annual income of four hundred and eighty dollars, while the
typical recipient is a male of about forty eight point
one years old with an annual income of fifty three
thousand dollars. So the discrepancy there between the donor and
(40:23):
the recipient is pretty telling.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
And organs aren't just used for transplants. There's a demand
for illicit experimentation from unethical scientists. Think of these as
the modern version of resurrection men.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
Recerave robbers.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Threat resurrection men were grave robbers, especially during a time
when it was legal to experiment on cadavers for med
schools and stuff, but it was illegal to procure the bodies.
So that's a chilling but not entirely inaccurate comparison. And
(41:04):
then of course there are there are other body parts,
such as bones or genitalia, that are used for magical.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Rituals, and the profit margins here can be outrageous. In
July of two thousand and nine, Levy Itzac Rosenbaum was
arrested in Brooklyn for conspiring to arrange the sale of
an Israeli citizen's kidney to an undercover FBI agent for
one hundred and sixty thousand dollars. He said he'd been
selling kidneys for ten years underground. He paid ten thousand
(41:36):
for a kidney and sold it for one hundred and
sixty thousand.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
And there are an unsettling number of examples of at
least parts of networks that have been exposed to. Al
Jazeera really recently put out a story I think in
February about a small syndicate in Indonesia in this place
called Java, West Java, where this really small village that
(42:01):
had a population of thirty people, a large number of
them sold their kidneys for around five thousand dollars each
and it was being run out of a state hospital.
Really crazy stuff like that. Just some bad people who
are working with a couple other bad people inside a
state run organization. A story from The Guardian in two
(42:22):
thousand and nine discussed how some pathologists in Israel were
harvesting organs from Palestinians and several others. That was in
the nineteen nineties. It has ended officially at least, which
is nice. And if you search for this kind of
this stuff, just put organ Harvesting Network into Google and
(42:43):
then click on the news column and just go back,
and it's prevalent. There's a lot of it.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
And in neither of the cases that Matt just mentioned,
neither in Indonesia nor in Israel, were these state sanctioned things.
These were under ground cabals operating and then they were
eventually exposed.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
Yeah, and that's almost always how it is.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Except in the People's Republic of China and the People's
Republic of China. You can see numerous accusations that say
the government itself is harvesting organs from executed prisoners, or,
as claimed in a PBS documentary from twenty fifteen, that
(43:29):
the government is actually collecting organs from live prisoners or
practitioners of a spiritual group, of a spiritual belief system
called Follongong. The idea here is that China is arbitrarily
imprisoning this minority religious group and then torturing them, killing them,
(43:51):
selling their organs, getting rich off what's called transplant tourism.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
And again you can find it in the US, you
can find it in Brazil, in South Africa. It's this
practice is occurring all over the globe.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
So you guys, why is this still going on? Why
is this still so prevalent?
Speaker 1 (44:11):
I would say there's several reasons. One of the big
ones would be demand. And if we're saying demand, what
we need to look at will be the precipitous rise
of health conditions in the you know what, in the
world entire because there's this big stereotype of terribly unhealthy Americans, right,
(44:36):
that stereotype has some truth in it. One in nine
or twenty six million Americans have kidney disease and most
probably don't know it, but obesity and diabetes and related
things are on the rise in the developing world as well,
so there are more people with worse parts. And I
(44:59):
think as long as as that situation continues, until we
can grow stuff in a vat yep, until we can
all live a more healthy lifestyle. And I am not volunteering,
by the way, because I'm setting my ways and they
are terrible until we can iron man or chainey up
some some suitable technological or mechanical replacement.
Speaker 4 (45:20):
Good. The problem, the problem with this stuff, ben is
that it's still going to favor those that are wealthy
because it will cost money. It's a service either, you know,
it's not easy to remove an organ and put it
back in.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
Well. Sure, and as we start to develop, you know,
more high tech ways of doing this, whether it's lab
grown or what have you, it's going to be like
these hypothetical situations with life extension technology. Who is that
going to be for, right, It's going to be for
the upper class, which is the class that is basically
in control.
Speaker 4 (45:56):
M HM.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
That's a harrowing point because on the surface, the legal
organ trade. At least if you look at the rules
or the guidelines for the list, they say that this
a person's placement on the list is evaluated by factors
that are entirely biologically related, severity of illness, time spent waiting,
(46:17):
blood type, match potential, and at least according to American
Transplant Foundation, income, race, and social status are never taken
into account in the allocation process, which sounds like a
beautiful thing.
Speaker 4 (46:36):
Until you take into account means to move yourself up
on that list that aren't necessarily proven, right, but you know,
colluding with someone who controls the list.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Or staying or you know, the means to participate in
this illegal market which is making hundreds of millions, hundreds
of millions of dollars minimum, probably more in an estimated billion.
And also also it's tough to find these sorts of
(47:11):
rings and wipe them out entirely. You know, people's survival
instinct is good. The money it's just so profitable, right,
And these are people often operating across international boundaries. So
at this point, at that at this point, regardless of
(47:37):
the various solutions to the various causes for this sort
of situation, it just that it doesn't seem to be
going away.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
This is really tough because in a lot of the
black markets that we've looked at in the past, it
seems as though the legalization of whatever product that is
being sold can kind of solve that black market because
it then becomes a free market thing. Okay, right, with
this situation, you can't really legalize just the voluntary donation
(48:07):
and receiving of organs from other humans, at least I
can't foresee away.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Well, it just a lot is left up to chance.
When you go the legal route, and it almost seems
like the illegal route, you might be more likely to
at least have the perception that you're going to get
what you need, you know about having to jump through
as many hoops or wait as long, and you have
less uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
And you could even hypothetically hire an entire network, so
you could get the level of care that you would
expect from a you know, from a top notch hospital.
If you just buy a doctor and her his services
(48:51):
for this one thing, if you just contracted out, it
would cost an enormous amount of money. But if a
new kidney gives you another nine years of life, a
lot of people would see that as a as a
fair trade, you know, and I'm sure that a lot
of the people who are participating in this illegal organ
trafficking are also doing it out of desperation and are
(49:15):
not monstrous people, you know, they are Possibly maybe it's
more like a matchmaking thing where they meet someone who
wants money and they have the money and they say, okay, here,
let's make a deal. Maybe it is. It may well
be consensual many times, but also many times it is not.
Speaker 4 (49:37):
Yeah, because we also we've seen that this matches up
with the act of human trafficking as well, right, I mean,
where people will be treated like cattle and taken to
another place where this will happen to them. It's been
reported on a lot by the un of how closely
linked human trafficking and organ trafficking is, so you know,
(50:00):
it's weird how far ranging this process or how much
it encompasses. It's also one of these kind of devil's
bargain scenarios where you don't really.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
Know the cost, the actual cost.
Speaker 4 (50:14):
Of what you're buying.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
You know, you're paying money and maybe you can afford it,
and maybe you are a wealthy person that has decided
to go this route because of the hoops required to
get on a legal list to get you know, what
you need when you need it. So maybe you decided
to go this route because you feel like you can
make it happen quicker for yourself or a loved one,
But you don't know who was manipulated, who was taken
(50:40):
advantage of to get that for you, So you are
becoming part of this problem by you know, feeding it.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
M Yeah, absolutely agree this. Okay, let's end on an
up note if we can. I know this has been
a you know, I took that Debbie down or advice
to heart, so I'm trying to see some silver linings.
There is a huge financial incentive now for medical technologists
(51:07):
and for inventors to create and geneticist as well to
create some sort of viable alternative, because even if the
illegal organ trafficking networks expand and expand even more so
in size, we're at a point where taking things from
(51:29):
one human and putting them in another is probably not enough.
So what we're going to need to do as a
species is to create a viable alternative, and people are
working around the clock to do so. So this situation
may become eventually a thing of the past. You know, eventually,
hopefully your children and your grandchildren will hear about this
(51:55):
age and medicine and treat it with the same incredulity
that we used to treat stories of a world before
germ theory.
Speaker 4 (52:05):
They used to take organs out of one person and
put it in another person.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
And they used to use hands to type what why
don't you just think it into your Google?
Speaker 4 (52:16):
I think it is weird to think how long this
conversation will last digitally. If the Internet stays around for
long enough, people might actually listen to this and go what.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
It's too scary? But yeah, we hope that. We hope
that you found this episode worthwhile. Do you have Do
you have any thoughts on organ transplants ethically, physically, biologically?
Speaker 4 (52:41):
Have you ever had an organ transplant or maybe donated
one of your own? You want to write to us
and tell us about it, We would love to hear.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Have you ever made it to the end of the
organ trail without dying of dysentery?
Speaker 1 (52:56):
I did once, but well I did several times. I
played on easy mode and I still lossome people.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
You monster.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
One guy broke a leg and then died of dysentery.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
Man, it was rough. Dysentery I think is like the
base level, and then there's some other stuff.
Speaker 4 (53:13):
Okay, we really had to bring it back there and all.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
I think we should.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
I really just trying to lighten things up a little bit. Guys,
this got pretty got pretty pretty dark here.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
I you know, I want to play it again and
then name members of our party, like after after you
guys and some of our listeners. But I'm afraid of
you know, what am I going to do if one
of you guys doesn't make it over the river? You know?
Speaker 3 (53:36):
Well, speaking of parties, let's have a shout out corner Party,
shut Out Corner.
Speaker 4 (53:43):
Our first shout out goes to Dakota, who works at
the postal service and listens to our show all delivering mail.
That's kind of cool, Dakota. Let us know that watch
Mojo often uses our videos as a kind of source
material for their own YouTube channel, which is kind of
what we do with other YouTube channels as well. We'll
(54:03):
use references and but we did some checking and they
do give us on screen credit with text, so we're
totally cool with that. And last thing, he Dakota wanted
us to say hello to Long John and I don't
know who that is, but it's it's Dakota's friend the
Watch Budget.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
They also, I think they did a list a while
back where they had different conspiracy type shows and.
Speaker 4 (54:28):
We will yeah YouTube conspiracy for you list. So Ben
Bolan was and Matt and Matt Frederick we were both
on that list.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
We were guys. We were all on the list. And
next we have Matt s on Twitter. Matt, you said,
have you considered doing an episode on the theory that
we are living in a simulation? Matt, you also sent
Matt S. You also sent a video of Ella Musk
discussing this topic, which you, Matt f I am sure
(54:55):
enjoyed immensely.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
I did.
Speaker 4 (54:57):
Yeah, I think I shared it with you guys. Maybe
I didn't, Maybe we just talked about it. It's the
one where Elon Musk is asked a question about simulated
universe theory and he basically says, we have a one
in one billion chance of existing in base reality, which
if you dig into it a little bit, it's a
little off. His numbers are a little off, but it's
(55:17):
still fascinating to think that one of the richest humans
on the planet believes that.
Speaker 3 (55:21):
Next one, we have one via Facebook from Corey C.
Thanks for keeping me hip to all the neat, strange
and weird things you guys cover. Then we have a
little hashtag party here. Hashtags cadouche hashtag all Hail Our
age less Overlord Ben hashtag bag of Badger's hashtag the
only metal is creatle of filth. Hashtag give Matt his
boat back? Hashtag tell Frank I said hi?
Speaker 4 (55:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (55:44):
Is this someone that knows Frank? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (55:46):
You talked about Frank a couple of times. Okay, I
think you even mentioned you should say hi. Have you
ever see Frank? See Frank say hi to him? He's
great guy.
Speaker 3 (55:54):
Yeah. IM just wondering if this is someone that knows Frank,
Like in the real world, Frank does get around.
Speaker 4 (55:58):
Uh maybe I don't.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
There men, Yeah, the many faces of Frank, the many
faces of Frank. And this thus ends our shout out
corner for today, and that's our classic episode for this evening.
We can't wait to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (56:17):
It's right. Let us know what you think. You can
reach us to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist
on Facebook x and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok Ork
Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 4 (56:26):
If you want to call us dial one eight three
three std WYTK that's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes.
Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if
we can use your name and message on the air.
If you got more to say than can fit in
that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old
fashioned email. We are the.
Speaker 6 (56:45):
Entities to read every single piece of correspondence we receive.
Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the void writes back
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Speaker 4 (57:13):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Well, fellow conspiracy realists, think you as always so much
for tuning in. We are returning to you with a
classic episode that is not for the faint of heart.
We do have, I think, an ethical responsibility to mention
that this contains graphic descriptions of disturbing and very real conspiracies.
(00:22):
We called it the Red Market. It's about the organ trade,
not the organ trail. We did this in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
You know, I commented off Mike, this is one of
my favorites, which I don't know what that says about me.
I just I've always been fascinated by the black market
trading of human organs.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
There's a Korean film from the early.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Two thousands called Sympathy for Mister Vengeance that really got
my mind whirling.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
As far as like this type of crime.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I think I probably mentioned that on the episode as well,
but it's really does. It is a whole world that
you might not be aware of, blissfully, and we're about
to take you down that particular bloody rabbit hole.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Yeah. This is also one of my favorite videos we
ever made, guys, when we went on a little road
trip to the Guide Stones and we made a video
in the car Ben talking about the red Market, and
it was awesome. You did a drive and make a
video which was probably.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
We never explained it.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
We do explain it, but we also just it was
a little dangerous. You were just driving and being awesome
on camera and I don't know how you did both
at the same time, but you pulled it off. But
great video. Check it out on the YouTube channel. Did
you guys hear about this guy in Kentucky from It's
a story that is just coming out now, but it
happened in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Most got his organs almost wasted. Yeah, he almost that.
He was an organ donor, yes, and it's legal for
people to take your organs as an organ donor if
you are dead.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Yes, And he was declared brain dead after he over dosed.
But then as he was being wheeled in to have
his organs taken out, he was attempting to move his
eyes around and let people know he was awake. His
family noticed. Doctors tell him, no, no, that's just normal.
That's what happens. He gets on the O R table
he's being prepped, and then he starts flailing around on
(02:18):
the table and the surgeons are like, guys, we can't
do this, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
The still moving Yeah. Usually this is a part of
why this classic episode resonates with us so much tonight, folks,
as you listen with us and explore this with us,
it is possible that the government of China is executing
(02:47):
prisoners and political or religious dissidents and then selling their organs.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
And the big scary takeaway in this episode the remember
the thing we talked about is where else could it
be happening?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
And how?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Well, let's jump right into the episode, guys.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Want you to know.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
They call me Ben and you are you? And that
makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Today's
podcast comes oddly enough, from a pretty tasteless joke that
we made a while back, and I don't remember if
it made it to the air.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
It did.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, we were joking about the Oregon Trail because someone
suggested we covered the topic of illegal organ trafficking, which
is a great suggestion.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, And then we all died of dysentery.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And then we all die of dysentery in the middle.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Of a spoiler alert.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, because we were dumb enough to start the game
as farmers. Oh they never do that, way harder. But yeah,
we were kicking around, just terrible titles, and one of
those was, of course.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
The organ trail. The organ Well, if you say it
like that, yeah, it can go either way.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Well, title aside, this is I don't apologize for that
title pn. I didn't. I just said title aside. Okay,
So we think this is a complex, global and continual
phenomenon and it is worth exploring in depth because, aside
(04:45):
from some maybe scare pieces that pop up at a
slow day in the news cycle, this is not really
examined and the causes of it aren't examined as well.
There is a lot of stuff they don't want you
to know about organ transplants, the organ trade in general,
what has been called the red market. So at first
(05:10):
I wanted to ask you, guys, Matt Noll, those are
our real names. Sorry for everyone. Should we apologize for
that one?
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
That's a good point, So have you guys ever known
or been acquainted with someone who received an organ transplant.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
I could not come up with a good example when
I was going back through my life.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
If you count bone marrow, which I think you should, Yeah,
then yes, I know. It's an intense process as far
as like getting on a list, getting matched with the
right candidate, and then actually getting the procedure done and
having everything booked because it is a very timely process.
You know, once everything goes through, and there's a lot
of uncertainty, and you even hear stories about people trying
(05:55):
to get higher up on the list by you know,
grease and some palms here and there, you know, right,
So I mean there's a lot at stake obviously, and
I won't say who this person was just to you know,
maintain their their privacy, but yeah, it was it was
very nerve nerve wracking, just wondering when it was going
to happen, when it was going to go through, and
(06:16):
when it did go through, if everything was going to
work out correctly.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Mm hmmm, yeah, because even with everything going as well
as possible, there's still, ah, there's still a significant risk.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Sure, and it's not like if that one doesn't work out.
They're just going to give you another one. I mean,
that's the one that you get, and then if it
doesn't work out, if you make it, you have to
start the whole process over it.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
So that is a terrifying prospect. Let's let's talk about
organs first, because, as you know, this podcast is part
of how stuff works. So we want to start at
the most basic thing. Organs. There are what are the
few things that everybody has in common? Everyone who is
involved with this show, we all have organs.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Yes, everyone listening to the show hopefully has organs.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Maybe there's some sort of machine consciousness listening there, and
that gets into a conversation about what would constitute an organ.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Yeah, maybe Dick Cheney is listening with his robotic heart
that just constantly circulates blood instead of pumping.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
That's a pacemaker. That's not, isn't it. I thought it was.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
It's not. He doesn't have a pacemaker anymore. Now it's
just a constant flow of blood. There's no he has
no heartbeat.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Oh, I thought you just meant he was like a
heartless individual. I thought you were, Well.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Yeah, no, no, I'm not rioffing this is true, But
but I'm also implying certain certain ways.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
There are levels to this statement. Well, I want one
of those.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Cheney charming person That's true.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
You usually say that as.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Soon as I'm smiling. I'm doing it just just just
for the for folks listening, I am doing a big
chess or cat grin here.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
I know.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Sometimes I say things like I mean them, and then
I'm smiling or making a face that these guys and
you guys don't see that. So you may think I
have quite an odd variety of opinions out there in
podcast Lamba. Just to set the record straight, you know,
Dick Cheney's the Prince going.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Noe Brown is a huge Dick Cheney fan. So, by
the strictest definition and in biology, biologically speaking, outside of
the world of music, an organ is just a group
of tissues in a living organism that have been adapted
to perform a specific function. Sounds simple, don't Yeah, it
(08:39):
sounds pretty simple. You have a heart, and your heart
has like one main job, right.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Sure, same with your liver, your kidneys, your eyes, all
of the parts. I think there are seventy eight official organs.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Well by that by it depends again on the definition
and be around seventy eight. People will argue back and
forth what does or does not constitute a organ entire.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
What I find meat though, is that these organs are
divided into two very distinct categories. All the ones we
mentioned are considered vital organs, which are organs that are
absolutely essential for maintaining your health and you know, your life. Ultimately.
These are the kinds of things like your heart, your brain,
your kidneys, your liver, things that perform processes that you
(09:25):
need done in order to live in the environment that we.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Yeah, I think the besides the eyes, I mentioned the eyes,
that's true, but I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Would you consider eye as part of this second category
vestigial organs, which is no way yeah either, well.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
I I don't know. I don't know. I think you
would probably get arguments for that.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I suppose you could say, maybe we could live in
a society or we have evolved beyond the need of
our eyes, but you'd certainly put you at a disadvantage.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Sure, and right now society has evolved to make something
like blindness or deafness not a death sentence. But people
were simply animals in the.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Wild gather type scenario, like you d be sunk.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
It'd be it would be more difficult, for sure. And
that's that's one of the that's one of the great
benefits of the the whole human experiment. Right. But well,
let's talk about these other organs vestigial right, vestigial organs.
This would be something that is a rudimentary structure in
us that corresponds to a functional structure in another animal. Right,
(10:32):
sometimes described as the lower animals, which I think is
hugely condescending and unfair. But we have all kinds.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Of examples of this, right, What about things like tonsils
or like an appendix.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, wisdom teeth or maybe a tail. Yes, people are
born sometimes with the tail.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Perhaps male nipples.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Oh man, whoa, I'm so tired of like it used
to really bother me. It's like, why are these here?
Is it no purpose?
Speaker 4 (11:03):
You guys aren't using them right, I mean not like
right now. No, I'm just saying you're not using them correctly.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Oh, I see, we're a family show, did you guys see?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
I just yeah, really fast? Okay? Did you see the
article about the Atlanta Native couple Josh and Chuck posted
this quick thing? A woman who left her job to
find a male partner, oh to to breastfeeds feed like adults,
And this is apparently a huge thing.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Is it like a like a fetishy thing?
Speaker 4 (11:37):
I think it is?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
OK?
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, but he doesn't have some sort of strange disorder
that makes him some sort of breast milk vampire.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Does she like have to burp him and stuff?
Speaker 4 (11:49):
I don't know, but but I did some looking into
this story, and it appears that there's a whole counterculture
of people who do this, who believe that there are
massive health benefits for both.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Parties, people who say that their health benefits.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, and perhaps that is an episode for another day.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
And perhaps perhaps you are right, And hey, it's tough
to be happy, So I wish them the best of luck.
It sounds like it's consensual returning to organs. So we've
got these things. We need many of them. There's some
that we don't particularly need need to live, right.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
You can go without acadney, you know both.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
You could go without wisdom teeth, right, sure, So what
do you do when the important ones fail? The ones
that are not like add on packages to the car
that is your body, but the stuff that's like the
engine and the transmission, well, for thousands and thousands and
thousands of years. When people's organs failed, they died. Yep,
(12:51):
that was it, sometimes quickly, sometimes in prolonged, excruciatingly painful ways.
The human body. To bring it to our current capitalists societ,
the human body was a product with planned obsolescence, no warranties,
and no returns, no exchanges either.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
And that's not to say that over the years throughout
history medical science hasn't been attempting to replace these things
in dying humans when their heart is giving out or
their liver is dying or something like that. We've attempted
humans many times to try and replace these things.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, not you, Nolan, me, but fellow members of our
species have been experimenting with organ transplants since at least
the seventeenth century, in animals and in humans. And along
the way there were many, many, many gruesome, horrific and
(13:50):
tragic failures.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
A lot of them we don't even know about because
they were never written down.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Right, But we do have early examples.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Yeah, sixteen sixty eight, a bone graft was attempted using
a dog's skull and actually successfully attached this graft to
a human's head.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah yeah, And we see the animal transplants, the practice
of putting animal components into a human body, where we're
not unheard of.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Well, I mean at the time, it probably seemed like
a logical jump to make you know, why not, let's
just give it a shot.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
And that could have also been at the uh what
if stage?
Speaker 4 (14:36):
Yeah, sure, especially if you're getting desperate trying to save somebody,
I mean, and if someone is on their last legs,
you'd try anything, and in that desperation. In nineteen oh five,
there were some doctors who took slices of a rabbit kidney.
They put it into a child and it did seem
to improve kidney function, at least for a little while. Unfortunately,
(14:57):
the child did die shortly after that from from pulmonary congestion.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Right. And then in the same year nineteen o five,
doctors managed to transplant a cornea into the damaged eye
of a laborer, restoring his sight.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
That's that, to me is crazy to think about in
nineteen oh five, like any kind of eye surgery back then.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
That's like buy an a lottery ticket every day for
a week and winning.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Then in nineteen oh six we have a French surgeon
Matteo Jubilet who attempted to save two patients' lives they
were suffering from renal failure by transplanting goat kidney into
one of the patients and a pig kidney into the other,
and they died shortly thereafter work. And I think what
the big takeaway is from a lot of these early
examples is that these organs are incredibly specific. They and
(15:54):
this just goes into the whole idea of being on
a transplant list or like you have to get just
the right one. It has to match your type of
as to there are a lot of factors involved that
you know will make this work, otherwise your body will
literally reject.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
This organ right in this There were other attempts through
the thirties and on and on up and with each
of these, with each of these failures, there were hard
lessons learned, and it looked like it maybe it might
be something that was just going to be beyond the
bounds of reliable medical technology and science, at least that
(16:30):
is until the first successful organ transplant in December of
nineteen fifty four.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Yeah, it was this guy named Ronald Herrick. He was
the first one. He had a successful transplant procedure. Pretty awesome.
It was. It's a cool story too, actually, and there's
a house Stuff Works article on organ donation where you
can find this story. He had a twin brother named Richard,
and one of his you know, his kidneys were failing,
(16:57):
and his brother basically decided, well, what if I give
one of my kidneys? And the doctor saw this was
really interesting because it hadn't been successful in the past,
but because their genetics were so close, almost identical, they
thought perhaps it would work. So the doctors didn't have
(17:18):
much faith that this would actually be carried out. Even
though you know, they have faith in themselves and being
able to make the procedure happen, they don't think it
will the organ itself will take. The great thing is
that it did work. Both of them survives and they
went on to live happily ever after, right or did they?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:41):
I mean that part. We're kidding on that part. No
one does that. But they did. Okay, Yeah, they did great,
they both recovered at least.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
What a Debbie Downer you are, sir?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Uh, yeah, I guess I'm more what's a word for
downer that starts with a bee? So we could do
it like Benji bad attitude.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
No, that's terrible. Well, that's why you're right.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
You're absolutely right, and there's no reason to be down,
is there? Because this worked very well and after this
watershed moment, more and more successful transplants took place. So today,
at least in the US and really globally, if you
are someone with enough money and enough luck and enough opportunity,
(18:33):
you really can get a second chance at life with
a new organ. We cannot emphasize how amazing this is
and how technology still since I'm going to try to
be positive for the rest of the podcast, Nation, I
appreciate it to you. We still know that this medical
technology continues to evolve at a breakneck pace, you know,
(18:56):
doing amazing things. If a child, for a child born
today the day you're hearing this, by the time they
are eighteen, it is quite possible that they will be
able to buy grown organs grown in a lab, not
taken from another person, or to take possibly organs from
(19:19):
genetically modified animals or entirely entirely synthetic ye things. However,
we're not there yet at this point, yours, the best
and only way that you can get another organ is
by getting it from another person. Many people volunteer to
(19:41):
donate their own organs, like the twin we mentioned earlier,
either a kidney or you know, you can live with
one kidney, like you said, Noel.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
You can chop a liver almost in half and it
will regenerate.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, and it'll regenerate almost as full size. Or if
you are a person with the driver's license in the US,
you are incentivized to be an organ donor could you
get a little discount yep. And what they do is
they just say, well, if the worst thing happens, the
worst thing for you at least, then something great might
(20:15):
happen for some other people.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Which is a pretty terrifying thought. But at the same time,
you know, if you're dead, depending on your religious and
spiritual beliefs, then hey, who cares, somebody else can use it.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
You can't take them with you.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You know, And arguably you could say this is a
form of extending someone's life if you are if a
piece of you lives on in someone else.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Absolutely, The pharaohs of Egypt would probably disagree though, I mean,
they had all of their organs pulled out and put
into jars and preserved. Yeah, in their tombs, you know,
so that they could have them in the actual life.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
And that was part of the that was part of
the belief system at the time, you know. And there
there's still some there's still some religions and belief systems
that do not allow for organ donation, like the aroma
don't practice it because they believe you need your physical
body and all its components for at least the first year.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Yeah, because you have to retrace your steps.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Right, and now we know, now we know that this
this stuff does work. It gives the average person a
chance to be a hero and should be quite candid,
this is a situation where people need heroes. Between nineteen
ninety eight and two thousand and eight, there were more
(21:37):
than ninety one thousand living donations. It's donations from somebody
who gave theory will survive after. In two thousand and six,
nearly forty six percent of organ donors we're living donors.
So that accounts for about twenty one point six percent
of all organs donated. So, like Matt you said, you
(21:59):
can donate part your liver and live and donate part
of a lung, part of your pancreas. You can donate
a whole kidney, yeah, or part of your intestines.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
You do have to be in pretty darn good health
to make a donation like this. Oh. I mean, it
is true that there are only a few prohibitive factors
that could stop you certain diseases, being HIV positive or
something like that. But you know, still, I don't think
anyone would want my liver, probably, Ben.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Do we have a stat about how often direct family
members are the ones that are doing the donation, because
that would just seem to me that would sure save
a lot of this process lists and the waiting lists
search for compatibility.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Well, we don't have that exactly, but we do know
according to the American Transplant Foundation that of about five
thousand living donations that occur that they watched, only one
in four of the donors was not biologically related to
the recipient, at least from their perspective.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It's not legal to buy or sell organs here in
the US for transplant, but it is legal to buy
and sell them for research purposes. So as long as
you say, well, sorry, uncle Sam, this is not for me.
I am doing a science project, and I We've got
(23:25):
a couple more stats if you want. According to the
Department of Health and Human Services, more than two thousand
new names are added to the national waiting list for
organ transplants and to get that every month and every day,
the day you are listening to this podcast, ladies and gentlemen,
(23:47):
in the US alone, about eighteen people die while waiting
for an organ transplant. So these people, these voluntary donors,
living or dead, are doing terrific, wonderful and much needed.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Work and we need more.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
But here's the thing, not all of these donors are volunteers.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
As it turns out, quite a few of them are victims.
And we'll get more into that after we take a
quick break.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
So, as you can tell from the statistics we covered
earlier everything that we've talked about thus far, the need
for organs far outweighs the supply for organs.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
And what happens then there is a basically a golf
that needs to be filled. And as we know, when
there's money to be made, people are going to come
along and fill that golf.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
Yeah, when's when supply and demand don't meet, there's going
to be profit. And that's what we see.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And the question becomes a essential you know what I mean?
This is not well, I steal a Selica or an
Lantra from someone because I want a Selica or an Lantra,
or God forbid a Honda Odyssey, which is not worth it.
This is a question of survival. If you are sitting
(25:19):
next to someone listening to this, and you are close
to that person, look at each other. What would you
do to keep them alive? Would you donate your kidney?
If given the opportunity, would you find them a heart?
The average heart will beat approximately two point five billion
times in the course of an average person's life. So
(25:43):
now you need to start thinking about the age of
this heart you would procure, because honestly, you'll get more
mileage the younger. That transplant source is Wow, Ben Well,
it's true. Unfortunately, it's true, and let's be honest. This
is just my personal opinion here. Some of the results
(26:05):
of this come about because the American medical system is
a joke without a punchline. People are dying due to
a phenomenally byzantine system of jacked up prices for operations
and medicines that would be affordable in many other countries.
(26:25):
This is again, this is just my opinion, but there
are numerous facts that point to the point to a
very poor performance on the part of the US medical
system in comparison to the rest of the developed world.
I mean, if we are considering the entire population, if
we're only considering the people who can pay the price tag,
(26:47):
then the US medical system is the best in the world.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
And look at the examples. You see if people that
you know are in the hospital for three or four
days and then their insurance gets cut off or like
you know, it maxes out, and they're left with like
a ten thousand dollars bill for being the hospital for
a few days just so they can.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Breathe for a fifty thousand dollars bill of course, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Exactly right, and then be in debt for the rest
of their lives or bankrupt. Right. So this I mean,
and that maybe is a subject. I know, it's a
touchy one for a lot of people. So that will
perhaps be a subject of a future show. I don't
know what you guys think. And of course we can
anticipate the arguments. People say, well, medical care is not free.
That is true, and that's something we can explore in
(27:28):
a future episode. Right now, in the case of kidneys,
which are by far one of the most common organs
transplant donated harvested traffic, only seventeen percent of the annual
demand is being met, and due to again skyrocketing medical
cost the vast majority of US citizens have virtually no
(27:49):
way of affording a living donor. So make no mistake,
legal organ transplants, like many other operations, are are overwhelmingly
out of the reach of a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Not to mention, maybe you're just so far down the list. Yes,
it's just the time of this is not on your side.
People will do desperate things in times of this kind
of stress.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, that's a really good point, because even if we're
talking about people who have enough capital or income to
to have the best medical care in the world right
and maybe survive as long as they can on the list,
then there's some things you know, you just can't legally buy.
So imagine, imagine, Matt, that you are a multi millionaire,
(28:38):
but nope, but you can't. You can't afford this legal avenue,
and that leaves you with two options.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Yeah, I guess I would die or I would find
a way to get one.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Guess which one people tend to choose.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
I'm guessing they just take kidneys.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
According to the UN, there are three broad categories of
organ trafficking. Number one are cases involving traffickers that force
or actually deceive victims into giving up an organ. Example
might be a person's kidnapped, their organ is harvested.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Or or this is the one that everyone knows from
the movies, right, you meet a charming stranger, a great
cool guy or girl or group of people, and you
party a little harder than you intended and the next
thing you know.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah, you wake up in a tub of ice in
the hotel and there's some staples on your side.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
That's chilling. I talked to you guys about this before
the show the movie Sympathy for Mister Vengeance. I think
this is a it's a really really dark movie. It's
beautifully made, though not but it's for kids. But it
involves this very thing, and it points to some of
the conditions that might lead someone to enter into an
even an agreement with these type of folks. Where one
(30:06):
of the main characters has a sister who needs I
believe it's a kidney, and she's on this waiting list
but it's not working out and it's taking too long
and she's not doing well. So the main character finds
these gangsters and agrees with them, like, Okay, I'm gonna
you're gonna take out my kidney and we're going to
do the operation. Instead, they knock him out, take his
(30:29):
kidney and his money, and disappear.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Right, And this is common enough to be a trope
in a lot of fiction as far as how often
it actually happens that way in real life, it's it's
tough to find proof. But that's not the only case.
You said, there are three categories.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Right, So the second category involves cases where victims formally
or informally agree to sell an organ and then are
cheated out of money. So the thing for the film
is almost a combination of the two. Are then cheated
out of the money or paid less than promised and threatened,
you know totally.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
You'll take what we give you exactly. You're lucky to
leave with your life.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. These are opportunistic, manipulative
folks that are that are doing these things. They are
finding people in their time of need, their time of
most desperation. Yeah, and you know, turning the screws on
the criminals.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
Yeah. Well, and sometimes it even does happen voluntarily where
someone will fly to Turkey or something to give their
their kidney four or five thousand dollars, you know, four
ten thousand dollars US. Meanwhile, the person who is taking
the kidney is going to make ten times that, twenty
times that.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Yeah, And as as problematic as Ben said as are
medical system is at least you do have some assurances
and you know everything's documented and you know nothing like that.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Whatever happen, and hopefully your chances of survival are much
higher because it's cleaner and they're they're better standards for care.
But there's there's another thing we have to say here.
I don't want to jump I have too far other
than to say there is a vast criminal element to this.
And this is something that happens. Whenever something is illegal
(32:16):
the people are going to do. There will be, as
you said, no opportunistic people involved. Imagine having a gambling debt.
You're in over your head, you have no hope of
paying this off within the time allotted to you. And
then Noel, let's say I have a gambling debt to you.
Let's say what's a massive amount of money to owe
(32:37):
for gambling.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
One million dollars.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Okay, So I had a wild night in Macau, and
now I owe you, the shadowy leader of the underworld,
one million dollars. And you told me I have forty
eight hours, it's our forty seven, and I'm dragged you
into whatever palatial you have sure, And and then you
(33:03):
make it very clear that you're you're fine with killing me,
but you give me a chance. You tell me I
can give up, you know, my kidney or part of
my lung or my liver. And of course people are
going to say yes to something like that. It's horrific,
but they will. And then there's the third case, which
to me is one of the saddest.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
I have to say. Guys, in this example, it would
be it would make a lot more sense if it
was maybe one hundred thousand dollars, because they would make
that if you owed a million dollars.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, they would just kill me and take and harvest.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Because they could. They could pretty much make that from
your entire body.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
I would go to the chop shop. Yikes, don't do it, No,
don't do it. Tell me, I've never started gambling. I've
never gambled, and I don't intend to start now because
I am frightened by this scenario.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
No, it's true. I mean even you know, I've played
some slots here and there, but same don't think I
could ever.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Go bewn that. I thought you were about to say. No,
it's true. I guess I would have.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
To do that. Well, you know, when faced with that
situation and I have to take care of my investment.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Oh oh yeah, Ice Cold, I respect you though. Number three,
This is perhaps one of the saddest.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Yes. The third example is when a vulnerable person receives
treatment for some ailment, perhaps it's real, perhaps it's not,
only to find when they come out of surgery or
whatever procedure they went through, they find that one or
more of their organs have been removed during the operation,
and it ranges from what organs are taken in this procedure.
(34:45):
And this is one of the more terrifying. I mean,
these are all terrifying, but this one to me. Trusting
someone going into a surgery or something like that only
to find that something completely different has happened. Yikes.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
And we're talking about completely enfranchised people that have no recourse,
migrant workers, homeless people, the impoverished, the illiterate. They are
just easy targets for these folks who want to prey
on the fact that they have no one to protect them.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
And they can be any age, they can be any
you know, cree, race, ethnicity, whatever sort of label you
want to attach to an example of the human species.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
As long as they got the goods and by that
I mean kidneys, livers, any of these organs that are
you know, ultimately pretty easy to remove in a bench,
which is horrifying in and of itself, especially when you
consider that you know, these are not done in sanitary conditions,
These are not done.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
In clean rooms, you know, well, yeah, And the fact
that they could be removed and then you can still
live depending on how you were treated after and what
type of process they took to actually remove it and
then fix you up, which is that to me is awful.
Can you imagine living after that just happening to you,
(36:02):
the PTSD that you would experience in your life.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
I personally would be thrilled to be alive, sure, because
I think at the time and money you save if
you're working with volume on sutures, on cleaning.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Up are you saying I mean, I'm trying to just
figure out why it's in their best interest to leave
these people alive in the first place.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I think that a lot of it is because it
is a transaction, you know, So if it's a transaction,
then it's ultimately a business. And if the business model
is you know, if you establish consistency, people will only
come back to you or only go pay you if
(36:48):
they know they're going to live. Yeah. So if we're
around the street turns out that you just kill people
and take their organs, which we do have cases of that,
then people aren't going to go to you with their
debts or their blood money of one sort or another.
And okay, so we said earlier that kidneys make up
seventy five percent of this illegal organ trade. But do
(37:13):
you know why. It's not just because you can take
one and sell, although I think that's a huge part
of it. It's also because of the rising rates of diabetes,
high blood pressure, heart problems and such across the globe.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yeah, so you need those the filtration system that are
the kidneys which are failing across the board.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
And for everyone who might think this is a strange
thing for us to cover, we would argue that this
is an example of not one, but multiple international conspiracies,
not theories. And again, a conspiracy just means people working
together in secret toward a common goal. Organized crime necessitates conspiracies.
(37:57):
This involves recruiters, people who transport or the patient, underground,
medical staff, middleman contractors, buyers, and banks that store the
organs because remember, organs don't keep and a lot of
people throughout the history of organ transplants have died because
an organ was pulled from a cadaver that have been
(38:19):
dead for hours. You know, So this stuff is on
ice and on the good side, on the legal side,
there's this amazing logistics chain of of how people move
an organ and keep it stored on ice across the
country or across the ocean to save someone's life. And
(38:41):
this can be a good thing.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
It can be a good thing for the law side.
The problem is, because these networks are so large, when
they get exposed, it will a lot of times be
one arm or one one section of a network, and
you never really get to see the larger picture because
you know, when you're operating underground like this, you just
(39:03):
pick up shop and get out of there. If there
isn't a good paper trail.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Right, Yeah, So let's talk about some facts about organ trafficking.
So I'll start with one. Organ trafficking accounts for five
to ten percent of all kidney transplants worldwide.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Is mind blowing to me.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
That's like saying illegal car sales account for ten percent
of all cars purchased, you know in the US.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Or some you just wouldn't ever associate that, I don't know.
Who is interesting?
Speaker 4 (39:38):
And according to the WHO, the World Health Organization, the
illegal trade and kidneys has risen to a level that
an estimated ten thousand black market operations involving purchased human
organs now take place every year. And according to a
couple of organizations organ Failure Solutions, Organs Watch, and EESOT,
(40:00):
the typical organ donor is a male about twenty eight
point nine, let's say twenty nine years old, with an
annual income of four hundred and eighty dollars, while the
typical recipient is a male of about forty eight point
one years old with an annual income of fifty three
thousand dollars. So the discrepancy there between the donor and
(40:23):
the recipient is pretty telling.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
And organs aren't just used for transplants. There's a demand
for illicit experimentation from unethical scientists. Think of these as
the modern version of resurrection men.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
Recerave robbers.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Threat resurrection men were grave robbers, especially during a time
when it was legal to experiment on cadavers for med
schools and stuff, but it was illegal to procure the bodies.
So that's a chilling but not entirely inaccurate comparison. And
(41:04):
then of course there are there are other body parts,
such as bones or genitalia, that are used for magical.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Rituals, and the profit margins here can be outrageous. In
July of two thousand and nine, Levy Itzac Rosenbaum was
arrested in Brooklyn for conspiring to arrange the sale of
an Israeli citizen's kidney to an undercover FBI agent for
one hundred and sixty thousand dollars. He said he'd been
selling kidneys for ten years underground. He paid ten thousand
(41:36):
for a kidney and sold it for one hundred and
sixty thousand.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
And there are an unsettling number of examples of at
least parts of networks that have been exposed to. Al
Jazeera really recently put out a story I think in
February about a small syndicate in Indonesia in this place
called Java, West Java, where this really small village that
(42:01):
had a population of thirty people, a large number of
them sold their kidneys for around five thousand dollars each
and it was being run out of a state hospital.
Really crazy stuff like that. Just some bad people who
are working with a couple other bad people inside a
state run organization. A story from The Guardian in two
(42:22):
thousand and nine discussed how some pathologists in Israel were
harvesting organs from Palestinians and several others. That was in
the nineteen nineties. It has ended officially at least, which
is nice. And if you search for this kind of
this stuff, just put organ Harvesting Network into Google and
(42:43):
then click on the news column and just go back,
and it's prevalent. There's a lot of it.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
And in neither of the cases that Matt just mentioned,
neither in Indonesia nor in Israel, were these state sanctioned things.
These were under ground cabals operating and then they were
eventually exposed.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
Yeah, and that's almost always how it is.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Except in the People's Republic of China and the People's
Republic of China. You can see numerous accusations that say
the government itself is harvesting organs from executed prisoners, or,
as claimed in a PBS documentary from twenty fifteen, that
(43:29):
the government is actually collecting organs from live prisoners or
practitioners of a spiritual group, of a spiritual belief system
called Follongong. The idea here is that China is arbitrarily
imprisoning this minority religious group and then torturing them, killing them,
(43:51):
selling their organs, getting rich off what's called transplant tourism.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
And again you can find it in the US, you
can find it in Brazil, in South Africa. It's this
practice is occurring all over the globe.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
So you guys, why is this still going on? Why
is this still so prevalent?
Speaker 1 (44:11):
I would say there's several reasons. One of the big
ones would be demand. And if we're saying demand, what
we need to look at will be the precipitous rise
of health conditions in the you know what, in the
world entire because there's this big stereotype of terribly unhealthy Americans, right,
(44:36):
that stereotype has some truth in it. One in nine
or twenty six million Americans have kidney disease and most
probably don't know it, but obesity and diabetes and related
things are on the rise in the developing world as well,
so there are more people with worse parts. And I
(44:59):
think as long as as that situation continues, until we
can grow stuff in a vat yep, until we can
all live a more healthy lifestyle. And I am not volunteering,
by the way, because I'm setting my ways and they
are terrible until we can iron man or chainey up
some some suitable technological or mechanical replacement.
Speaker 4 (45:20):
Good. The problem, the problem with this stuff, ben is
that it's still going to favor those that are wealthy
because it will cost money. It's a service either, you know,
it's not easy to remove an organ and put it
back in.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
Well. Sure, and as we start to develop, you know,
more high tech ways of doing this, whether it's lab
grown or what have you, it's going to be like
these hypothetical situations with life extension technology. Who is that
going to be for, right, It's going to be for
the upper class, which is the class that is basically
in control.
Speaker 4 (45:56):
M HM.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
That's a harrowing point because on the surface, the legal
organ trade. At least if you look at the rules
or the guidelines for the list, they say that this
a person's placement on the list is evaluated by factors
that are entirely biologically related, severity of illness, time spent waiting,
(46:17):
blood type, match potential, and at least according to American
Transplant Foundation, income, race, and social status are never taken
into account in the allocation process, which sounds like a
beautiful thing.
Speaker 4 (46:36):
Until you take into account means to move yourself up
on that list that aren't necessarily proven, right, but you know,
colluding with someone who controls the list.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Or staying or you know, the means to participate in
this illegal market which is making hundreds of millions, hundreds
of millions of dollars minimum, probably more in an estimated billion.
And also also it's tough to find these sorts of
(47:11):
rings and wipe them out entirely. You know, people's survival
instinct is good. The money it's just so profitable, right,
And these are people often operating across international boundaries. So
at this point, at that at this point, regardless of
(47:37):
the various solutions to the various causes for this sort
of situation, it just that it doesn't seem to be
going away.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
This is really tough because in a lot of the
black markets that we've looked at in the past, it
seems as though the legalization of whatever product that is
being sold can kind of solve that black market because
it then becomes a free market thing. Okay, right, with
this situation, you can't really legalize just the voluntary donation
(48:07):
and receiving of organs from other humans, at least I
can't foresee away.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Well, it just a lot is left up to chance.
When you go the legal route, and it almost seems
like the illegal route, you might be more likely to
at least have the perception that you're going to get
what you need, you know about having to jump through
as many hoops or wait as long, and you have
less uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
And you could even hypothetically hire an entire network, so
you could get the level of care that you would
expect from a you know, from a top notch hospital.
If you just buy a doctor and her his services
(48:51):
for this one thing, if you just contracted out, it
would cost an enormous amount of money. But if a
new kidney gives you another nine years of life, a
lot of people would see that as a as a
fair trade, you know, and I'm sure that a lot
of the people who are participating in this illegal organ
trafficking are also doing it out of desperation and are
(49:15):
not monstrous people, you know, they are Possibly maybe it's
more like a matchmaking thing where they meet someone who
wants money and they have the money and they say, okay, here,
let's make a deal. Maybe it is. It may well
be consensual many times, but also many times it is not.
Speaker 4 (49:37):
Yeah, because we also we've seen that this matches up
with the act of human trafficking as well, right, I mean,
where people will be treated like cattle and taken to
another place where this will happen to them. It's been
reported on a lot by the un of how closely
linked human trafficking and organ trafficking is, so you know,
(50:00):
it's weird how far ranging this process or how much
it encompasses. It's also one of these kind of devil's
bargain scenarios where you don't really.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
Know the cost, the actual cost.
Speaker 4 (50:14):
Of what you're buying.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
You know, you're paying money and maybe you can afford it,
and maybe you are a wealthy person that has decided
to go this route because of the hoops required to
get on a legal list to get you know, what
you need when you need it. So maybe you decided
to go this route because you feel like you can
make it happen quicker for yourself or a loved one,
But you don't know who was manipulated, who was taken
(50:40):
advantage of to get that for you, So you are
becoming part of this problem by you know, feeding it.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
M Yeah, absolutely agree this. Okay, let's end on an
up note if we can. I know this has been
a you know, I took that Debbie down or advice
to heart, so I'm trying to see some silver linings.
There is a huge financial incentive now for medical technologists
(51:07):
and for inventors to create and geneticist as well to
create some sort of viable alternative, because even if the
illegal organ trafficking networks expand and expand even more so
in size, we're at a point where taking things from
(51:29):
one human and putting them in another is probably not enough.
So what we're going to need to do as a
species is to create a viable alternative, and people are
working around the clock to do so. So this situation
may become eventually a thing of the past. You know, eventually,
hopefully your children and your grandchildren will hear about this
(51:55):
age and medicine and treat it with the same incredulity
that we used to treat stories of a world before
germ theory.
Speaker 4 (52:05):
They used to take organs out of one person and
put it in another person.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
And they used to use hands to type what why
don't you just think it into your Google?
Speaker 4 (52:16):
I think it is weird to think how long this
conversation will last digitally. If the Internet stays around for
long enough, people might actually listen to this and go what.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
It's too scary? But yeah, we hope that. We hope
that you found this episode worthwhile. Do you have Do
you have any thoughts on organ transplants ethically, physically, biologically?
Speaker 4 (52:41):
Have you ever had an organ transplant or maybe donated
one of your own? You want to write to us
and tell us about it, We would love to hear.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Have you ever made it to the end of the
organ trail without dying of dysentery?
Speaker 1 (52:56):
I did once, but well I did several times. I
played on easy mode and I still lossome people.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
You monster.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
One guy broke a leg and then died of dysentery.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
Man, it was rough. Dysentery I think is like the
base level, and then there's some other stuff.
Speaker 4 (53:13):
Okay, we really had to bring it back there and all.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
I think we should.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
I really just trying to lighten things up a little bit. Guys,
this got pretty got pretty pretty dark here.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
I you know, I want to play it again and
then name members of our party, like after after you
guys and some of our listeners. But I'm afraid of
you know, what am I going to do if one
of you guys doesn't make it over the river? You know?
Speaker 3 (53:36):
Well, speaking of parties, let's have a shout out corner Party,
shut Out Corner.
Speaker 4 (53:43):
Our first shout out goes to Dakota, who works at
the postal service and listens to our show all delivering mail.
That's kind of cool, Dakota. Let us know that watch
Mojo often uses our videos as a kind of source
material for their own YouTube channel, which is kind of
what we do with other YouTube channels as well. We'll
(54:03):
use references and but we did some checking and they
do give us on screen credit with text, so we're
totally cool with that. And last thing, he Dakota wanted
us to say hello to Long John and I don't
know who that is, but it's it's Dakota's friend the
Watch Budget.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
They also, I think they did a list a while
back where they had different conspiracy type shows and.
Speaker 4 (54:28):
We will yeah YouTube conspiracy for you list. So Ben
Bolan was and Matt and Matt Frederick we were both
on that list.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
We were guys. We were all on the list. And
next we have Matt s on Twitter. Matt, you said,
have you considered doing an episode on the theory that
we are living in a simulation? Matt, you also sent
Matt S. You also sent a video of Ella Musk
discussing this topic, which you, Matt f I am sure
(54:55):
enjoyed immensely.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
I did.
Speaker 4 (54:57):
Yeah, I think I shared it with you guys. Maybe
I didn't, Maybe we just talked about it. It's the
one where Elon Musk is asked a question about simulated
universe theory and he basically says, we have a one
in one billion chance of existing in base reality, which
if you dig into it a little bit, it's a
little off. His numbers are a little off, but it's
(55:17):
still fascinating to think that one of the richest humans
on the planet believes that.
Speaker 3 (55:21):
Next one, we have one via Facebook from Corey C.
Thanks for keeping me hip to all the neat, strange
and weird things you guys cover. Then we have a
little hashtag party here. Hashtags cadouche hashtag all Hail Our
age less Overlord Ben hashtag bag of Badger's hashtag the
only metal is creatle of filth. Hashtag give Matt his
boat back? Hashtag tell Frank I said hi?
Speaker 4 (55:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (55:44):
Is this someone that knows Frank? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (55:46):
You talked about Frank a couple of times. Okay, I
think you even mentioned you should say hi. Have you
ever see Frank? See Frank say hi to him? He's
great guy.
Speaker 3 (55:54):
Yeah. IM just wondering if this is someone that knows Frank,
Like in the real world, Frank does get around.
Speaker 4 (55:58):
Uh maybe I don't.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
There men, Yeah, the many faces of Frank, the many
faces of Frank. And this thus ends our shout out
corner for today, and that's our classic episode for this evening.
We can't wait to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (56:17):
It's right. Let us know what you think. You can
reach us to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist
on Facebook x and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok Ork
Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 4 (56:26):
If you want to call us dial one eight three
three std WYTK that's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes.
Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if
we can use your name and message on the air.
If you got more to say than can fit in
that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old
fashioned email. We are the.
Speaker 6 (56:45):
Entities to read every single piece of correspondence we receive.
Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the void writes back
conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 4 (57:13):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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