September 17, 2021 • 38 mins
Today, the word "Guantánamo" is, for most people, synonymous with one of the world's most infamous prisons -- but, as it turns out, the troubled story of this location dates back much further. In part one of this two-part series, the guys explore the history of Guantánamo Bay, from the 15th century to the modern day.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Paul.
Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you. You are here,
and that makes this the stuff they don't want you
to know. Fellow conspiracy realist, this is a two part episode.
It's one that we and many people have thought about
(00:49):
or quite a long time. It's a story that for
many people begins almost two decades ago, but as will
come to find, it's a much much older story. We
were recently inspired to dig into this thanks to a
message from fellow conspiracy realist Lisa So thank you so much.
(01:11):
For more than a century, you see, the Caribbean nation
of Cuba or Cuba, has been home to one of
the region's most controversial US bases and currently prisons. It's
generally called Guantanamo Bay. So in part one of this series,
we're going to ask how did we get here? We
(01:33):
meaning both the US and we meaning human beings in general.
How did the human species get into this situation? Here
are the facts. First off, if you look at the news,
if you put Guantanamo into your search engine of choice,
you go to a library, what you're going to find,
mostly nowadays is going to be about get MO the
(01:56):
Guantanamo Bay detention camp. But foreign powers have salivated over
the region known as Guantanamo Bay since blon, since way
before the United States was even a thing. And it
makes sense when you look at the geography, right, if
you pull up a map of Cuba, you can look
(02:17):
at this bay and you can automatically know why it
is such a prized possession. Yeah, it's right down there
at the tip basically the southeastern tip of Cuba. If
you're if you're looking at it and from a strategy
perspective as well as from some other perspectives we're going
(02:38):
to talk about today, that thing is prime prime real estate. Yeah.
All the way back when Cristo bald Cologne often called
Columbus here in the US, all the way back on
his second trip to what is now known as the
America's in April, Europeans saw the saw opportunity in this
(03:02):
part of the island. He landed there and um, you know,
he acted the way Christopher Columbus acts historically. But this
set off a craze for the European colonial powers. Later,
England wants it, France wants It's Spain. Of course, once
that everybody is trying to play king of the Hill
(03:22):
or in this case, king of the Bay. Is there
really cool punk band called Guantanamo Bay Watch? So I
just thought that was a really clever name for a
punk band. Um, But it's true. It's totally easy to
see why so many people wanted it strategically because it's
the largest harbor on the southern port of the island
of Cuba Um. It's surrounded by hills that largely cut
(03:44):
it off from the interior on The name comes from Tynos,
the original residence of Cuba UH and this group UM,
which also lived in Puerto Rico, the Bahamas, and Jamaica.
It was largely wiped out by here pene forces like
Crystal Ball or Christopher Um due in part two, brutal
(04:05):
actions of the colonists that were essentially colonizing their land
and in part two disease that these very colonists carried
with little attention paid to the indigenous folks that they
were invading and infecting. Um and Columbus actually called it
Puerto Grande when his ship landed there in fourteen ninety
(04:27):
four on one of his subsequent visits. And then fast
forward seventeen forty one, the British briefly capture Guantanamo Bay
during something called the War of Jenkins Ear And there's
a ridiculous history episode that touches on this. If you
want to learn more about it, well, Jenkins the title
(04:47):
of the war, the name of the war in English
should let you know how sadly hilarious people's reasons for
going to war can become or their causes belly and petty.
And they renamed during their brief stint here, they renamed
it Cumberland Bay. That didn't last. If you look at
(05:11):
the map now and you look at the geopolitics of
the current day, you have to ask yourself, Hey, how
did Guantanamo Bay become part of the US while still
not being a part of the US depended like whenever
it's convenient, because that is seriously literally the case. Let's go,
let's let's go just a little further in time. The
(05:33):
Spanish American War in eighteen. Out Spanish American War police
are coming for you. I can hear them. Can you
hear them? Yep? There they go. This is the reason
you don't hear this war mentioned so often. Those guys
are on the ball. You never expect the Spanish American
inquisition except when they, you know, last their sirens while
(05:57):
they're heading towards you. So during the Spanish American War
in eight and it's one of those many, many, many
wars that people often forget about in the US. UH,
here's what happened. US forces were working with allies in
Cuba to take possession of Guantanamo Bay and use it
(06:18):
as a base from which they could battle Spanish forces
controlling the island. This is also, by the way, the
first deployment of a young Smedley Butler would just become
a marine and traveled from Pennsylvania to UH to fight
in this conflict. This is an experience that would profoundly
(06:39):
affect him later in life. If you don't know who
we're talking about, please please please go online and check
out a short pamphlets barely even a book called War
is a Racket, and you'll you'll learn the story in
full as a matter of fact, slight spoilers, let's call
it foreshadowing. You'll have an oppert to a need to
(07:00):
learn much more about Smedley Butler pretty soon. So just
like take that, keep it secret, keep it safe. We'll
be back on that point. But anyhow, Yes, that's when
the US force has become involved. And after the Spanish
American War, the US coercis the new nation of Cuba
(07:22):
into a series of agreements. At first they were allowed
to create up to four naval bases on the island.
They got they were kind of getting to two. They
traded one of those for more land in the one
base they still retained today, which is now known as
(07:44):
Quantatamo bay Uh. This happened in so the US leases
forty five square miles of the area, and this counts
land and water, by the way, and they get it
from this new got from it the new government of Cuba.
At the time. It's important to note nobody was talking
(08:06):
about building one of history's most notorious prisons. Instead, this
was just seen, you know, kind of the way the
earlier European power saw it. It's a stopping point, right,
you can resupply it's strategically advantageous to keep ships there,
and the U S. Navy is growing at this time,
so this is quite a well, coup would be a
(08:30):
bad choice of words in this situation. But this, this
is a big get for Uncle Sam, right, this, this
helps them extend their force projection and extend their power
in the region. And then that that last fork, it's
just like a hair more than three decades and this
(08:51):
was three things called the Platt Agreement, and we can
talk a little bit more about that in you know,
later in this series. By repealed and there's a new
agreement made. The countries don't just renew the lease, they
make it permanent. And the only way right now, legally
(09:11):
from the U S perspective, at least, the only way
this agreement can end is if one of two things happens.
One the US unilaterally decides to leave the bay, or
two both countries agree that the U S should leave. Currently,
the situation is that the government of Cuba very much
thinks the U S should leave and the US does
(09:34):
not agree, and that's it. They'll be there forever from
now on until they're chased out. Maybe yeah, Well, because
that agreement got repealed, replaced. From the perspective of the
Cuban government, especially post Communist revolution, the US forces in
(09:54):
Guantanamo are an illegal occupation. They're an illegal occupying force.
And that's something that you know you you won't here
reported too often in the West. The way other countries
perceive Guantanamo Bay today, this naval base is often called
get MO. It's not just a prison. It is a
(10:16):
naval base, but one of the world's most notorious prisons,
which will get to Impart two, is on the is
in this area. And it should be no surprise, fellow
conspiracy realist that get MO Guantanamo Obey remain a hotbed
of conspiracy and have for many, many years. We'll tell
you more after a word from our sponsor. Here's where
(10:45):
it gets crazy. Well, first of all, back in the
terms of the lease itself were actually outlined in something
called the Platt Agreement UM and it's set those terms
for what would be largely considered an unequal relationship between
the United States and Cuba. Clearly with the advantage being
given to the United States. Both countries would get free
(11:07):
access through the bay, and while the US controls day
to day operations and ultimately in theory does recognize Cubans sovereignty.
So there's certainly some um symbolic recognizing of Cuba's sovereignty there.
So why was the agreement so controversial? Well, the Platt
Agreement did pretty significantly challenge cuba sovereignty while tacitly acknowledging
(11:31):
it as well by mandating that they actually include these
conditions for withdrawal of troops um that the US would
also adhere to into their very constitution. Ben the this
is your wheelhouse, my friend, with their international fairs background,
can you explain what a strong arm move this would
have been seen as or or was it seen that way? Yeah? Yeah,
(11:54):
it was because it was so the idea was that
we will not only have the disagreement, right, you want
us out, okay, fine, we'll leave leave if you do
these things. And not only do you have to do
these things, but to make sure that we're super locked
in on this, you have to take what you have
(12:15):
to take our caveats, and you have to put them
in your constitution. So like imagine, for example, if after
this is not a perfect comparison, but imagine for example,
after the UM after the Revolutionary War, right, France said, Okay,
we're gonna keep We're gonna keep New York Harper. Okay,
(12:38):
we're gonna pay you a little for it, but we're
gonna keep it. And we want you to put the
following stuff in your constitution. Yeah, it's kind of you know,
it's our law, we wrote it, but you guys should
put it in. And what's more, you should be grateful.
That's that's kind of what happened here. And like so
many of these these sorts of coercive moves, the stated
(13:03):
goal is one of defense and protection, like hey, help
us help you. That's that's the way it's phrase. But
there's already something conspiratorial about this because the person who
signed off for this on the Cuban side, this guy
named Thomas Estra Palma, and he was he would later
go on to be the first president of Cuba, but
(13:24):
he himself was an American citizen. So there's kind of
an inside man argument here as well. You can see
why this didn't sit well with a lot of people.
But then adding a little bit of insult to injury here,
truth be told, Uncle Sam got the land for a song.
(13:45):
Up until that agreement, the government of the US would
would control this part of the island, and in return
they would pay two thousand gold coins per year for
their lease. Nineteen thirty four, that changes a little, and
they say, okay, we're gonna match. We'll still give you
the equivalent, but we'll give it to you in dollars
(14:08):
because we're super into we're super into paper currency now
post think ten thirteen. You know what I'm talking about.
And so we're not gonna we're not gonna give you
actual gold. But hey, hold these coupons, you guys, you
know I owe you. I love the concept of somebody
in Fort Knox is just pulling out gold bullion to
print gold coins, specifically to pay Cuba for their lease.
(14:31):
And this relationship these odd bedfellows remained relatively stable and
didn't change significantly until another pivotal moment in Cuban history,
which was the Revolution in the nineteen fifties, the rise
of Fidel Castro and the US and Cuban relations, surprise surprise,
(14:55):
steadily declined as the Castro government be came closer and
closer to the Soviet Union right, and as the US
attempted to kill him in a number of ingenious ways.
In a number of infamously stupid ways. You know, exploding cigars.
Was that a thing that was oh yeah, oh yeah,
(15:17):
you know what. Let's take a second. Let's let's stroll
down memory way. Let's do Castro assassination attempts. Let's do
some of the greatest hits. Yes, no, you are correct.
If we're doing family feud, you just got one of
those little slots that just dinged dinged forward, right, so
you got some points, because yes, it exploding cigar was
one of the famous ones. There was the let's see,
(15:40):
they also wanted to poison his diving suit with fungus,
and the the idea was that it would give him
really bad skin and then and then no one will
will trust him anymore, because you can't trust a leader
with bad skin. There's actually a documentary called six thirty
eight Ways to Kill Castro that was produced by British
(16:03):
television channel four UM in the UK in two thousands six.
I have not seen it, but it does outline I
don't know, I hopefully I guess the number is accurate
all these different ways that the CIA tried to kill Castro. Yeah,
many of which were um kind of proposed ways. Uh,
but several were actual attempts. One of my other favorites,
(16:27):
just to give you a perspective here, folks, is in
nineteen sixty when the CIA was super into psychedelics, they said,
you know what we should do. We should destroy the
guy's public, uh, public reputation if we can't kill him.
So let's go to his broadcasting studio and let's spray
the whole thing. Let's fumigate it with a chemical that'll
(16:49):
make it look like he's tripping. He'll have hallucinations as
though he were on acid. That's right. I don't think
it panned out, but that was mentioned in uh the
I heard original UM podcast series Operation Midnight Climax. The
idea was to make him look like he had dementia
or something or like that he was tripping over him
not only tripping, you know, like on LSD, but like
(17:09):
tripping over his sentences, and would make him appear foolish,
as though he were like having some kind of like
nervous breakdown. Yeah. Uh, and just related all of this,
I would highly recommend the Guardian article. The CIA has
a long history of helping to kill leaders around the world.
In this case, they didn't. They didn't get it right.
But that article is about the times that it worked. Yes, yes,
(17:34):
this is uh, this is good reading too. I mean
it's not uh, it's not gonna make chuckle because there
are some really horrific things that you can lay at
the foot of the CIA. And that's just the stuff
that people know now right. A lot of their lit
the Shenanigans lost to history anyhow, as their relationship with
(17:54):
the U. S declines and Cuba becomes closer and closer
with the U S s R. Uncle Sam cuts diplomatic
ties with Cuba nineteen sixty one, and just a few
years later, in nineteen sixty four, Castro directs his government
to cut off all the supply avenues and all the
water lines to Guantanamo. And again, like as we said,
(18:18):
this is encircled partially by some pretty steep terrain. So
the naval station there says, Okay, we've gotta we've got
to do our own thing. We're not leaving, so we're
just gonna We're gonna get our own power and water sources.
This is, geopolitically speaking, a very tense roommate situation. That's
(18:38):
that's one way to put it. Fast forward ninety four Uh,
the yearly lease gets what they're called reassessed, and then
they say, okay, well let's let's update this. You know
what I mean. These are different times now, So how
about this once a year for occupying again forty five
square miles of your country, we'll give you you well
(19:01):
over four thousand dollars a year. How does that sound? Dang,
that's the cheapest private island location ever, even though it's
not a full island, it's just a bay. It's amazing, right,
Like forty five square miles ocean front property. By the way,
how much should that be? Seriously, like four thousand a year?
(19:25):
I mean does it still forty five square miles? That's
what we said before? Right, I think it's still the
same size, although I don't know if it's grown. Okay, Yeah,
And according to this is interesting too. So according to
most sources, the government of Cuba has refused to cash
these checks for a long long time in protests of
(19:47):
this agreement that again they maintain is coersive and they
maintain the US is illegally occupying their territory. I wonder
if they've got them like framed in protests, you know,
like some sort of artifact that there. Yes, they see. See,
we're holding our ground. We will not bow to any
foreign interlopers. Oh, it's a dis even deeper than that,
(20:07):
you guys. The truth of the matter is that after
the Cuban Revolution, which again nineteen ninety nine, uh, when
the U. S President at the time, Eisenhower refused to
return the land or leave it. Uh, the Cuban government
has only cashed one of those checks. And Castro was
super pissed about that for the rest of his life.
(20:30):
He said it was a mistake in the early days
of the government. And the legend is that he did
keep all those physical checks again, and he kept them uncashed,
and he just unceremoniously stuffed them in a desk drawer
for the rest of his life, and occasionally we mentioned
it in speeches with a very screw you guys attitude.
(20:51):
You know, Oh, nobody tries to cash him anytime soon,
because it'll just come back in sufficient funds. Oh, that
is a I was not expecting. That was good. That
was a park four level bird, all right. It's true though.
I mean from his perspective, you could see how um
fundamentally offensive the presence of that base would be regardless
(21:12):
of the stated intent behind it. So this gets us
up to the revolution in Cuba, right, and we've we've
established that Guantanamo Bay was around far before the US
and when the US was occupying the area, where when
the US had territory there, which it still does today,
(21:32):
that situation did not change despite the dangers of the
Cold War. Let's talk a little bit more about this
afterward from our sponsors. M hmm, I hope you liked that.
American capitalism all right, and it's it's weird because it
(21:56):
seems American capitalism, regardless of your views on the on
the concept of the ideology, which it very much is,
it seems that it is a constant right, And you
could say the same about Guantanamo, about the throughout the revolution,
the rise of Fidel Castro up to it, including his demise,
throughout the Cold War, throughout the War on Terror, and
(22:20):
now to the present day as we record this series,
one thing remained constant on the island the US presents
at Guantanamo Bay, and most again, most of the twenty
years of reporting on the area has centered on the
detention camp. But it's important to notice this is this
is something a lot of the reporting can miss at times.
(22:40):
It's important to notice this. Before Guantanamo Bay hit the
news as a detention camp created in response to the
War on Terror, it was home to other controversial acts.
That's right. In the nineties nineties, the US used Guantanamo
Bay as a place to dump three hundred HIV positive refugees.
(23:06):
Um it was essentially being used and described as a
prison camp, and also the US that is and turned
over thirty thousand Haitian refugees there on the base. Eventually
they let ten thousand seven of them into the US.
But um they also interered Cubans that were seeking asylum there. Yep,
(23:26):
they did. And this became one of those locations that
you may have heard of in the past and other
parts of the world where the question becomes is this
refugee camp or is this an open air prison? Right?
Are we are we helping these people or are we
simply holding them? This was the first kind of large
(23:49):
scale use of the area as a prison or a
center of incarceration. And it happened, like you said, in
the early directly following the overthrow of Haiti's first democratically
elected president, which is a story all its own and
maybe when we cover in a future episode. So the
(24:12):
c I A at the same time the US government
is is putting these folks in these refugee camps. The
CIA is helping assisting death squads that are traveling around Haiti,
and they were they were killing again the supporters of
a democratically elected president, Jean bertrand arrest. The White House
(24:35):
said what the White House didn't say, Hey, we're doing
this while you know the CIA is killing people. They said,
we're doing We're going to be using Guantanamo as a
quote tent shelter for people who are fleeing violence in Haiti.
And if any of these refugees made trouble, we're thought
to be making trouble or were suspected of being troublesome
(24:58):
in the future, they were sent to a nearby site
still on the base called Camp x Ray. Today that
location is known as the Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp. It's
also just known as a glorified dog kennel. Yes, yep,
and that that comes from the reporting that initially showed
(25:19):
the world the chain links, the chain link comprising the
fencing right uh, and it does look like a kennel.
So when President Bush Senior, then President at the time,
when he decided to send a lot of these Haitian
exiles back into the chaotic fray of the country they'd
(25:41):
hope to escape. Something incredibly important happened. And it's something
that maybe maybe slipped by and some of the news cycles,
and it's this. The U s. Supreme Court ruled that
these refugees, regardless of their behavior, regardless of why or
how they end dad up in this area, they were
(26:02):
not entitled two rights that you would normally have in
a US system of justice, or as a person seeking
refugee status in the US or seeking asylum, because in
this case, Guantanamo doesn't count as US soil. Now it's Cuba.
(26:25):
If it's a problem, if it's a responsibility, it's it's
Cuba's problem. Now, they seem to say, so, it's essentially
it's this is foreshadowing, right, But I mean, it's essentially
an argument that can be made as to whether or
not US laws apply when you're there, and in terms
of what you can do to the people there and
the prisoners there, what you can do to anyone at
(26:48):
any time in anything. Yeah, it's it's a weird legal
black spot, great area whole, and it's why everything else happened. Yes,
well said, this rationale forms the basis of everything that
would come to pass in the future. This is a
have your cake and eat it to situation for Uncle
(27:11):
Sam to give it this way all right for a
little over four grand a year. If you're the US,
you control all aspects of day to day life and
military operations in this bay. It is your call, except
that is when this control would include responsibilities that you
(27:33):
would rather avoid. So all the sudden, like think of it.
I'm just I'm killing it with terrible analogies here. But
think of it like let's say you've you've got a roommate,
or maybe you've got a kid, right and the kid says,
this is this is my room, except when it's time
to clean it, then it's you know, then it's just
(27:54):
another part of your house. What are you doing in there? Timmy?
How old is? Because that's nothing. Check the plat agreement.
I don't have to tell you anything. Get out of here.
He got us go agement. Should have never signed a
(28:15):
treaty with my child. And this this what what we've
done here is we've set the stage for the problems
and the controversies, the corruption, the conspiracies, the allegations of
torture that have been wrapped up in the story of
Guantanamo for the last two decades. So just for perspective here,
(28:40):
you know, we think that, like we are spending a
lot of time in this first part of the series
on the history, because that's that's a question and that's
a story that needs to be addressed more openly. The
question is how did we get here? I mean, before
diving into this, were you all aware about like the
(29:03):
history of Guantanamo and just how many countries were trying
to grab the throne. Absolutely not. I honestly took for
granted the idea that this whole um weird kind of
changing of hands and this whole like power grab that
the U S did with Cuba is literally what led
(29:23):
to all the atrocities that we're definitely going to get,
uh super into in the second part. I mean, I
just I completely missed that entirely. So no, this is
absolutely educational for me personally. Personally for me, both of
my wife's parents came from the island when the revolution
was going down, So yeah, I knew a little bit
about this after meeting her, you know, it was right
(29:46):
after September element and everything. So I learned a lot
about this place because it was a weird. It was
a weird thing when you hear that detainees from the
War on Terror are being kept in Cuba, weirdly enough,
and you know, for us in a in an early relationship,
it felt like a very coincidental thing, like, Wow, that's
weird that that would just happen. But do you realize
(30:09):
that again, We're gonna save a lot of this for
the next episode because that's when we're getting into the
War on Terror itself and how that altered things for
the state here. But it is very weird to think
about Cuba, of all places on the earth, as the
place where we would end up sending detainees, uh as
(30:29):
a sovereign nation that has a ton of landmasks just
north of where we're keeping them. Yeah. And then also
this is there's another aspect here of the history. It
might have stood out to some some of our fellow
listeners that a lease usually has an end date. This
(30:52):
one does not have an end date. It's just renting forever.
And additionally, when we say it was a strong arm deal.
I should have mentioned this earlier. The US required Cuba
to amend their constitution to incorporate this agreement. This kind
(31:13):
of devil's bargain if they if the Cuban government did
not agree, then the U s would not have allowed
them full independence because after the Treaty of Paris with Spain,
it was kind of up to them, up to the
US government of the time. What happened to Cuba, Puerto Rico,
the Polivines, Guam. This was something that the Cuban government
(31:36):
was forced to do. And so if you are growing
up in the area, then you can understand why this
would seem tremendously like this would seem like a problem, right,
Like what if you what if you grew up and
you knew that in your country right or in your
state there was this foreign occupying force. No one could
(32:00):
do anything about it, and they're what they're paying Like
for what what is four thousand there? Just like four
thousand dollars divided by twelve, Like how much is the
monthly rent there? Yeah, I know, I totally see what
you're saying, Ben, But I think if you have someone
some power help you gain independence, then having that power
(32:25):
in some presence in some way in your country is
probably not you know, boxed at as as heavily. Sure.
I mean, I think that's a valid point. But let's
also consider that before the US came into the into
the theater of this war, the like Cuban, the Cuban
(32:45):
people have been fighting for independence against the Spanish for decades.
So you could say, and then I'm sure there are
many critics of this policy who agree, you could say
that what happened is the US kind of came in
at the end, yeah, and said, look at us, we're
helping sort of like uh, if you're if you've ever
(33:07):
helped a friend move and somebody shows up right at
the end, right, and they carry one box, and then
you go, I am exhausted. Now we get some of
that pizza and beer. You know, I totally see that
point to Ben, because I think I think both might
be true a little bit, even if they helped out
a little bit, maybe forty five miles, you know, square
(33:29):
miles of land, isn't that crazy? But then pushing it
further and further from that nineteen o three date to
the nine date when they tried to get it in
the constitution, that's when you're like, whoa, what that's a
little come on, Well, you want to be independent, don't you.
You know what I mean, Hey, that's a that's a
(33:50):
nice idea for a country you have. It would be
cool if it worked out, yes, But also from the
Cuban perspective, strategically, if you've got the United States military
as an ally and it's just up there, and you've
got a bay down here where they can you know,
deploy from anybody that's gonna come and mess with, Cuba
(34:10):
isn't going to because the U. S. Navy is the
big player in town, in the world. And you know,
I can imagine how that's also that goes into the
calculus of all right, maybe we should go along with this.
I completely agree. And you've reminded me, Matt of a
quotation from a senator at the time in the US
(34:34):
that maybe we'll give us some more context into the
motivations for this quote unquote protected defensive move uh As
the as the US was ramping up to two intervening Cuba,
one senator pulled out all the stops to try to
(34:58):
get everybody on board with this intervention. His name is
Senator John Thurston. First he said it was his wife's
dying wish to quote, free Cuban it's people. And then
just for backup, he added this. He said, war with
Spain would increase the business and the earnings of every
American railroad. It would increase the output of every American factory.
(35:22):
It would stimulate every branch of industry and domestic commerce.
It would greatly increase the demand for American labor. And
in the end, every certificate that represented a share of
an American business enterprise would be worth more money than
it is today. Not quite protecting people's you know, quality
(35:44):
of life, is it? It has an odd quote to me, man,
that is that's that's an American senator. That is that
is the Senator John Thurston. My wife's dying wish, no
kidding you guys, is to free the Cuban people from
Spanish occupation. Also, who likes money. Yeah, everything's gonna get better. Wow.
(36:09):
That's that's intense, okay, And it's it's strange to think
of it that way because people do argue for economic
benefits in war. They're just careful about who they're talking
to when they say it. You know, they read the room.
So that's why you'll hear a politician and maybe in
a public facing environment say something like we're protecting our
(36:31):
national interest but what are those national interests exactly? It's
a good question, Well what do you think those national
interests are? You can find us on the internet, right
let us know. Absolutely, we we would love to hear
if you've got stories about the history of Cuba, about
the history of Guantanamo obey, anything that's related to what
(36:53):
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(37:14):
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(37:34):
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(38:06):
stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production
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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Paul.
Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you. You are here,
and that makes this the stuff they don't want you
to know. Fellow conspiracy realist, this is a two part episode.
It's one that we and many people have thought about
(00:49):
or quite a long time. It's a story that for
many people begins almost two decades ago, but as will
come to find, it's a much much older story. We
were recently inspired to dig into this thanks to a
message from fellow conspiracy realist Lisa So thank you so much.
(01:11):
For more than a century, you see, the Caribbean nation
of Cuba or Cuba, has been home to one of
the region's most controversial US bases and currently prisons. It's
generally called Guantanamo Bay. So in part one of this series,
we're going to ask how did we get here? We
(01:33):
meaning both the US and we meaning human beings in general.
How did the human species get into this situation? Here
are the facts. First off, if you look at the news,
if you put Guantanamo into your search engine of choice,
you go to a library, what you're going to find,
mostly nowadays is going to be about get MO the
(01:56):
Guantanamo Bay detention camp. But foreign powers have salivated over
the region known as Guantanamo Bay since blon, since way
before the United States was even a thing. And it
makes sense when you look at the geography, right, if
you pull up a map of Cuba, you can look
(02:17):
at this bay and you can automatically know why it
is such a prized possession. Yeah, it's right down there
at the tip basically the southeastern tip of Cuba. If
you're if you're looking at it and from a strategy
perspective as well as from some other perspectives we're going
(02:38):
to talk about today, that thing is prime prime real estate. Yeah.
All the way back when Cristo bald Cologne often called
Columbus here in the US, all the way back on
his second trip to what is now known as the
America's in April, Europeans saw the saw opportunity in this
(03:02):
part of the island. He landed there and um, you know,
he acted the way Christopher Columbus acts historically. But this
set off a craze for the European colonial powers. Later,
England wants it, France wants It's Spain. Of course, once
that everybody is trying to play king of the Hill
(03:22):
or in this case, king of the Bay. Is there
really cool punk band called Guantanamo Bay Watch? So I
just thought that was a really clever name for a
punk band. Um, But it's true. It's totally easy to
see why so many people wanted it strategically because it's
the largest harbor on the southern port of the island
of Cuba Um. It's surrounded by hills that largely cut
(03:44):
it off from the interior on The name comes from Tynos,
the original residence of Cuba UH and this group UM,
which also lived in Puerto Rico, the Bahamas, and Jamaica.
It was largely wiped out by here pene forces like
Crystal Ball or Christopher Um due in part two, brutal
(04:05):
actions of the colonists that were essentially colonizing their land
and in part two disease that these very colonists carried
with little attention paid to the indigenous folks that they
were invading and infecting. Um and Columbus actually called it
Puerto Grande when his ship landed there in fourteen ninety
(04:27):
four on one of his subsequent visits. And then fast
forward seventeen forty one, the British briefly capture Guantanamo Bay
during something called the War of Jenkins Ear And there's
a ridiculous history episode that touches on this. If you
want to learn more about it, well, Jenkins the title
(04:47):
of the war, the name of the war in English
should let you know how sadly hilarious people's reasons for
going to war can become or their causes belly and petty.
And they renamed during their brief stint here, they renamed
it Cumberland Bay. That didn't last. If you look at
(05:11):
the map now and you look at the geopolitics of
the current day, you have to ask yourself, Hey, how
did Guantanamo Bay become part of the US while still
not being a part of the US depended like whenever
it's convenient, because that is seriously literally the case. Let's go,
let's let's go just a little further in time. The
(05:33):
Spanish American War in eighteen. Out Spanish American War police
are coming for you. I can hear them. Can you
hear them? Yep? There they go. This is the reason
you don't hear this war mentioned so often. Those guys
are on the ball. You never expect the Spanish American
inquisition except when they, you know, last their sirens while
(05:57):
they're heading towards you. So during the Spanish American War
in eight and it's one of those many, many, many
wars that people often forget about in the US. UH,
here's what happened. US forces were working with allies in
Cuba to take possession of Guantanamo Bay and use it
(06:18):
as a base from which they could battle Spanish forces
controlling the island. This is also, by the way, the
first deployment of a young Smedley Butler would just become
a marine and traveled from Pennsylvania to UH to fight
in this conflict. This is an experience that would profoundly
(06:39):
affect him later in life. If you don't know who
we're talking about, please please please go online and check
out a short pamphlets barely even a book called War
is a Racket, and you'll you'll learn the story in
full as a matter of fact, slight spoilers, let's call
it foreshadowing. You'll have an oppert to a need to
(07:00):
learn much more about Smedley Butler pretty soon. So just
like take that, keep it secret, keep it safe. We'll
be back on that point. But anyhow, Yes, that's when
the US force has become involved. And after the Spanish
American War, the US coercis the new nation of Cuba
(07:22):
into a series of agreements. At first they were allowed
to create up to four naval bases on the island.
They got they were kind of getting to two. They
traded one of those for more land in the one
base they still retained today, which is now known as
(07:44):
Quantatamo bay Uh. This happened in so the US leases
forty five square miles of the area, and this counts
land and water, by the way, and they get it
from this new got from it the new government of Cuba.
At the time. It's important to note nobody was talking
(08:06):
about building one of history's most notorious prisons. Instead, this
was just seen, you know, kind of the way the
earlier European power saw it. It's a stopping point, right,
you can resupply it's strategically advantageous to keep ships there,
and the U S. Navy is growing at this time,
so this is quite a well, coup would be a
(08:30):
bad choice of words in this situation. But this, this
is a big get for Uncle Sam, right, this, this
helps them extend their force projection and extend their power
in the region. And then that that last fork, it's
just like a hair more than three decades and this
(08:51):
was three things called the Platt Agreement, and we can
talk a little bit more about that in you know,
later in this series. By repealed and there's a new
agreement made. The countries don't just renew the lease, they
make it permanent. And the only way right now, legally
(09:11):
from the U S perspective, at least, the only way
this agreement can end is if one of two things happens.
One the US unilaterally decides to leave the bay, or
two both countries agree that the U S should leave. Currently,
the situation is that the government of Cuba very much
thinks the U S should leave and the US does
(09:34):
not agree, and that's it. They'll be there forever from
now on until they're chased out. Maybe yeah, Well, because
that agreement got repealed, replaced. From the perspective of the
Cuban government, especially post Communist revolution, the US forces in
(09:54):
Guantanamo are an illegal occupation. They're an illegal occupying force.
And that's something that you know you you won't here
reported too often in the West. The way other countries
perceive Guantanamo Bay today, this naval base is often called
get MO. It's not just a prison. It is a
(10:16):
naval base, but one of the world's most notorious prisons,
which will get to Impart two, is on the is
in this area. And it should be no surprise, fellow
conspiracy realist that get MO Guantanamo Obey remain a hotbed
of conspiracy and have for many, many years. We'll tell
you more after a word from our sponsor. Here's where
(10:45):
it gets crazy. Well, first of all, back in the
terms of the lease itself were actually outlined in something
called the Platt Agreement UM and it's set those terms
for what would be largely considered an unequal relationship between
the United States and Cuba. Clearly with the advantage being
given to the United States. Both countries would get free
(11:07):
access through the bay, and while the US controls day
to day operations and ultimately in theory does recognize Cubans sovereignty.
So there's certainly some um symbolic recognizing of Cuba's sovereignty there.
So why was the agreement so controversial? Well, the Platt
Agreement did pretty significantly challenge cuba sovereignty while tacitly acknowledging
(11:31):
it as well by mandating that they actually include these
conditions for withdrawal of troops um that the US would
also adhere to into their very constitution. Ben the this
is your wheelhouse, my friend, with their international fairs background,
can you explain what a strong arm move this would
have been seen as or or was it seen that way? Yeah? Yeah,
(11:54):
it was because it was so the idea was that
we will not only have the disagreement, right, you want
us out, okay, fine, we'll leave leave if you do
these things. And not only do you have to do
these things, but to make sure that we're super locked
in on this, you have to take what you have
(12:15):
to take our caveats, and you have to put them
in your constitution. So like imagine, for example, if after
this is not a perfect comparison, but imagine for example,
after the UM after the Revolutionary War, right, France said, Okay,
we're gonna keep We're gonna keep New York Harper. Okay,
(12:38):
we're gonna pay you a little for it, but we're
gonna keep it. And we want you to put the
following stuff in your constitution. Yeah, it's kind of you know,
it's our law, we wrote it, but you guys should
put it in. And what's more, you should be grateful.
That's that's kind of what happened here. And like so
many of these these sorts of coercive moves, the stated
(13:03):
goal is one of defense and protection, like hey, help
us help you. That's that's the way it's phrase. But
there's already something conspiratorial about this because the person who
signed off for this on the Cuban side, this guy
named Thomas Estra Palma, and he was he would later
go on to be the first president of Cuba, but
(13:24):
he himself was an American citizen. So there's kind of
an inside man argument here as well. You can see
why this didn't sit well with a lot of people.
But then adding a little bit of insult to injury here,
truth be told, Uncle Sam got the land for a song.
(13:45):
Up until that agreement, the government of the US would
would control this part of the island, and in return
they would pay two thousand gold coins per year for
their lease. Nineteen thirty four, that changes a little, and
they say, okay, we're gonna match. We'll still give you
the equivalent, but we'll give it to you in dollars
(14:08):
because we're super into we're super into paper currency now
post think ten thirteen. You know what I'm talking about.
And so we're not gonna we're not gonna give you
actual gold. But hey, hold these coupons, you guys, you
know I owe you. I love the concept of somebody
in Fort Knox is just pulling out gold bullion to
print gold coins, specifically to pay Cuba for their lease.
(14:31):
And this relationship these odd bedfellows remained relatively stable and
didn't change significantly until another pivotal moment in Cuban history,
which was the Revolution in the nineteen fifties, the rise
of Fidel Castro and the US and Cuban relations, surprise surprise,
(14:55):
steadily declined as the Castro government be came closer and
closer to the Soviet Union right, and as the US
attempted to kill him in a number of ingenious ways.
In a number of infamously stupid ways. You know, exploding cigars.
Was that a thing that was oh yeah, oh yeah,
(15:17):
you know what. Let's take a second. Let's let's stroll
down memory way. Let's do Castro assassination attempts. Let's do
some of the greatest hits. Yes, no, you are correct.
If we're doing family feud, you just got one of
those little slots that just dinged dinged forward, right, so
you got some points, because yes, it exploding cigar was
one of the famous ones. There was the let's see,
(15:40):
they also wanted to poison his diving suit with fungus,
and the the idea was that it would give him
really bad skin and then and then no one will
will trust him anymore, because you can't trust a leader
with bad skin. There's actually a documentary called six thirty
eight Ways to Kill Castro that was produced by British
(16:03):
television channel four UM in the UK in two thousands six.
I have not seen it, but it does outline I
don't know, I hopefully I guess the number is accurate
all these different ways that the CIA tried to kill Castro. Yeah,
many of which were um kind of proposed ways. Uh,
but several were actual attempts. One of my other favorites,
(16:27):
just to give you a perspective here, folks, is in
nineteen sixty when the CIA was super into psychedelics, they said,
you know what we should do. We should destroy the
guy's public, uh, public reputation if we can't kill him.
So let's go to his broadcasting studio and let's spray
the whole thing. Let's fumigate it with a chemical that'll
(16:49):
make it look like he's tripping. He'll have hallucinations as
though he were on acid. That's right. I don't think
it panned out, but that was mentioned in uh the
I heard original UM podcast series Operation Midnight Climax. The
idea was to make him look like he had dementia
or something or like that he was tripping over him
not only tripping, you know, like on LSD, but like
(17:09):
tripping over his sentences, and would make him appear foolish,
as though he were like having some kind of like
nervous breakdown. Yeah. Uh, and just related all of this,
I would highly recommend the Guardian article. The CIA has
a long history of helping to kill leaders around the world.
In this case, they didn't. They didn't get it right.
But that article is about the times that it worked. Yes, yes,
(17:34):
this is uh, this is good reading too. I mean
it's not uh, it's not gonna make chuckle because there
are some really horrific things that you can lay at
the foot of the CIA. And that's just the stuff
that people know now right. A lot of their lit
the Shenanigans lost to history anyhow, as their relationship with
(17:54):
the U. S declines and Cuba becomes closer and closer
with the U S s R. Uncle Sam cuts diplomatic
ties with Cuba nineteen sixty one, and just a few
years later, in nineteen sixty four, Castro directs his government
to cut off all the supply avenues and all the
water lines to Guantanamo. And again, like as we said,
(18:18):
this is encircled partially by some pretty steep terrain. So
the naval station there says, Okay, we've gotta we've got
to do our own thing. We're not leaving, so we're
just gonna We're gonna get our own power and water sources.
This is, geopolitically speaking, a very tense roommate situation. That's
(18:38):
that's one way to put it. Fast forward ninety four Uh,
the yearly lease gets what they're called reassessed, and then
they say, okay, well let's let's update this. You know
what I mean. These are different times now, So how
about this once a year for occupying again forty five
square miles of your country, we'll give you you well
(19:01):
over four thousand dollars a year. How does that sound? Dang,
that's the cheapest private island location ever, even though it's
not a full island, it's just a bay. It's amazing, right,
Like forty five square miles ocean front property. By the way,
how much should that be? Seriously, like four thousand a year?
(19:25):
I mean does it still forty five square miles? That's
what we said before? Right, I think it's still the
same size, although I don't know if it's grown. Okay, Yeah,
And according to this is interesting too. So according to
most sources, the government of Cuba has refused to cash
these checks for a long long time in protests of
(19:47):
this agreement that again they maintain is coersive and they
maintain the US is illegally occupying their territory. I wonder
if they've got them like framed in protests, you know,
like some sort of artifact that there. Yes, they see. See,
we're holding our ground. We will not bow to any
foreign interlopers. Oh, it's a dis even deeper than that,
(20:07):
you guys. The truth of the matter is that after
the Cuban Revolution, which again nineteen ninety nine, uh, when
the U. S President at the time, Eisenhower refused to
return the land or leave it. Uh, the Cuban government
has only cashed one of those checks. And Castro was
super pissed about that for the rest of his life.
(20:30):
He said it was a mistake in the early days
of the government. And the legend is that he did
keep all those physical checks again, and he kept them uncashed,
and he just unceremoniously stuffed them in a desk drawer
for the rest of his life, and occasionally we mentioned
it in speeches with a very screw you guys attitude.
(20:51):
You know, Oh, nobody tries to cash him anytime soon,
because it'll just come back in sufficient funds. Oh, that
is a I was not expecting. That was good. That
was a park four level bird, all right. It's true though.
I mean from his perspective, you could see how um
fundamentally offensive the presence of that base would be regardless
(21:12):
of the stated intent behind it. So this gets us
up to the revolution in Cuba, right, and we've we've
established that Guantanamo Bay was around far before the US
and when the US was occupying the area, where when
the US had territory there, which it still does today,
(21:32):
that situation did not change despite the dangers of the
Cold War. Let's talk a little bit more about this
afterward from our sponsors. M hmm, I hope you liked that.
American capitalism all right, and it's it's weird because it
(21:56):
seems American capitalism, regardless of your views on the on
the concept of the ideology, which it very much is,
it seems that it is a constant right, And you
could say the same about Guantanamo, about the throughout the revolution,
the rise of Fidel Castro up to it, including his demise,
throughout the Cold War, throughout the War on Terror, and
(22:20):
now to the present day as we record this series,
one thing remained constant on the island the US presents
at Guantanamo Bay, and most again, most of the twenty
years of reporting on the area has centered on the
detention camp. But it's important to notice this is this
is something a lot of the reporting can miss at times.
(22:40):
It's important to notice this. Before Guantanamo Bay hit the
news as a detention camp created in response to the
War on Terror, it was home to other controversial acts.
That's right. In the nineties nineties, the US used Guantanamo
Bay as a place to dump three hundred HIV positive refugees.
(23:06):
Um it was essentially being used and described as a
prison camp, and also the US that is and turned
over thirty thousand Haitian refugees there on the base. Eventually
they let ten thousand seven of them into the US.
But um they also interered Cubans that were seeking asylum there. Yep,
(23:26):
they did. And this became one of those locations that
you may have heard of in the past and other
parts of the world where the question becomes is this
refugee camp or is this an open air prison? Right?
Are we are we helping these people or are we
simply holding them? This was the first kind of large
(23:49):
scale use of the area as a prison or a
center of incarceration. And it happened, like you said, in
the early directly following the overthrow of Haiti's first democratically
elected president, which is a story all its own and
maybe when we cover in a future episode. So the
(24:12):
c I A at the same time the US government
is is putting these folks in these refugee camps. The
CIA is helping assisting death squads that are traveling around Haiti,
and they were they were killing again the supporters of
a democratically elected president, Jean bertrand arrest. The White House
(24:35):
said what the White House didn't say, Hey, we're doing
this while you know the CIA is killing people. They said,
we're doing We're going to be using Guantanamo as a
quote tent shelter for people who are fleeing violence in Haiti.
And if any of these refugees made trouble, we're thought
to be making trouble or were suspected of being troublesome
(24:58):
in the future, they were sent to a nearby site
still on the base called Camp x Ray. Today that
location is known as the Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp. It's
also just known as a glorified dog kennel. Yes, yep,
and that that comes from the reporting that initially showed
(25:19):
the world the chain links, the chain link comprising the
fencing right uh, and it does look like a kennel.
So when President Bush Senior, then President at the time,
when he decided to send a lot of these Haitian
exiles back into the chaotic fray of the country they'd
(25:41):
hope to escape. Something incredibly important happened. And it's something
that maybe maybe slipped by and some of the news cycles,
and it's this. The U s. Supreme Court ruled that
these refugees, regardless of their behavior, regardless of why or
how they end dad up in this area, they were
(26:02):
not entitled two rights that you would normally have in
a US system of justice, or as a person seeking
refugee status in the US or seeking asylum, because in
this case, Guantanamo doesn't count as US soil. Now it's Cuba.
(26:25):
If it's a problem, if it's a responsibility, it's it's
Cuba's problem. Now, they seem to say, so, it's essentially
it's this is foreshadowing, right, But I mean, it's essentially
an argument that can be made as to whether or
not US laws apply when you're there, and in terms
of what you can do to the people there and
the prisoners there, what you can do to anyone at
(26:48):
any time in anything. Yeah, it's it's a weird legal
black spot, great area whole, and it's why everything else happened. Yes,
well said, this rationale forms the basis of everything that
would come to pass in the future. This is a
have your cake and eat it to situation for Uncle
(27:11):
Sam to give it this way all right for a
little over four grand a year. If you're the US,
you control all aspects of day to day life and
military operations in this bay. It is your call, except
that is when this control would include responsibilities that you
(27:33):
would rather avoid. So all the sudden, like think of it.
I'm just I'm killing it with terrible analogies here. But
think of it like let's say you've you've got a roommate,
or maybe you've got a kid, right and the kid says,
this is this is my room, except when it's time
to clean it, then it's you know, then it's just
(27:54):
another part of your house. What are you doing in there? Timmy?
How old is? Because that's nothing. Check the plat agreement.
I don't have to tell you anything. Get out of here.
He got us go agement. Should have never signed a
(28:15):
treaty with my child. And this this what what we've
done here is we've set the stage for the problems
and the controversies, the corruption, the conspiracies, the allegations of
torture that have been wrapped up in the story of
Guantanamo for the last two decades. So just for perspective here,
(28:40):
you know, we think that, like we are spending a
lot of time in this first part of the series
on the history, because that's that's a question and that's
a story that needs to be addressed more openly. The
question is how did we get here? I mean, before
diving into this, were you all aware about like the
(29:03):
history of Guantanamo and just how many countries were trying
to grab the throne. Absolutely not. I honestly took for
granted the idea that this whole um weird kind of
changing of hands and this whole like power grab that
the U S did with Cuba is literally what led
(29:23):
to all the atrocities that we're definitely going to get,
uh super into in the second part. I mean, I
just I completely missed that entirely. So no, this is
absolutely educational for me personally. Personally for me, both of
my wife's parents came from the island when the revolution
was going down, So yeah, I knew a little bit
about this after meeting her, you know, it was right
(29:46):
after September element and everything. So I learned a lot
about this place because it was a weird. It was
a weird thing when you hear that detainees from the
War on Terror are being kept in Cuba, weirdly enough,
and you know, for us in a in an early relationship,
it felt like a very coincidental thing, like, Wow, that's
weird that that would just happen. But do you realize
(30:09):
that again, We're gonna save a lot of this for
the next episode because that's when we're getting into the
War on Terror itself and how that altered things for
the state here. But it is very weird to think
about Cuba, of all places on the earth, as the
place where we would end up sending detainees, uh as
(30:29):
a sovereign nation that has a ton of landmasks just
north of where we're keeping them. Yeah. And then also
this is there's another aspect here of the history. It
might have stood out to some some of our fellow
listeners that a lease usually has an end date. This
(30:52):
one does not have an end date. It's just renting forever.
And additionally, when we say it was a strong arm deal.
I should have mentioned this earlier. The US required Cuba
to amend their constitution to incorporate this agreement. This kind
(31:13):
of devil's bargain if they if the Cuban government did
not agree, then the U s would not have allowed
them full independence because after the Treaty of Paris with Spain,
it was kind of up to them, up to the
US government of the time. What happened to Cuba, Puerto Rico,
the Polivines, Guam. This was something that the Cuban government
(31:36):
was forced to do. And so if you are growing
up in the area, then you can understand why this
would seem tremendously like this would seem like a problem, right,
Like what if you what if you grew up and
you knew that in your country right or in your
state there was this foreign occupying force. No one could
(32:00):
do anything about it, and they're what they're paying Like
for what what is four thousand there? Just like four
thousand dollars divided by twelve, Like how much is the
monthly rent there? Yeah, I know, I totally see what
you're saying, Ben, But I think if you have someone
some power help you gain independence, then having that power
(32:25):
in some presence in some way in your country is
probably not you know, boxed at as as heavily. Sure.
I mean, I think that's a valid point. But let's
also consider that before the US came into the into
the theater of this war, the like Cuban, the Cuban
(32:45):
people have been fighting for independence against the Spanish for decades.
So you could say, and then I'm sure there are
many critics of this policy who agree, you could say
that what happened is the US kind of came in
at the end, yeah, and said, look at us, we're
helping sort of like uh, if you're if you've ever
(33:07):
helped a friend move and somebody shows up right at
the end, right, and they carry one box, and then
you go, I am exhausted. Now we get some of
that pizza and beer. You know, I totally see that
point to Ben, because I think I think both might
be true a little bit, even if they helped out
a little bit, maybe forty five miles, you know, square
(33:29):
miles of land, isn't that crazy? But then pushing it
further and further from that nineteen o three date to
the nine date when they tried to get it in
the constitution, that's when you're like, whoa, what that's a
little come on, Well, you want to be independent, don't you.
You know what I mean, Hey, that's a that's a
(33:50):
nice idea for a country you have. It would be
cool if it worked out, yes, But also from the
Cuban perspective, strategically, if you've got the United States military
as an ally and it's just up there, and you've
got a bay down here where they can you know,
deploy from anybody that's gonna come and mess with, Cuba
(34:10):
isn't going to because the U. S. Navy is the
big player in town, in the world. And you know,
I can imagine how that's also that goes into the
calculus of all right, maybe we should go along with this.
I completely agree. And you've reminded me, Matt of a
quotation from a senator at the time in the US
(34:34):
that maybe we'll give us some more context into the
motivations for this quote unquote protected defensive move uh As
the as the US was ramping up to two intervening Cuba,
one senator pulled out all the stops to try to
(34:58):
get everybody on board with this intervention. His name is
Senator John Thurston. First he said it was his wife's
dying wish to quote, free Cuban it's people. And then
just for backup, he added this. He said, war with
Spain would increase the business and the earnings of every
American railroad. It would increase the output of every American factory.
(35:22):
It would stimulate every branch of industry and domestic commerce.
It would greatly increase the demand for American labor. And
in the end, every certificate that represented a share of
an American business enterprise would be worth more money than
it is today. Not quite protecting people's you know, quality
(35:44):
of life, is it? It has an odd quote to me, man,
that is that's that's an American senator. That is that
is the Senator John Thurston. My wife's dying wish, no
kidding you guys, is to free the Cuban people from
Spanish occupation. Also, who likes money. Yeah, everything's gonna get better. Wow.
(36:09):
That's that's intense, okay, And it's it's strange to think
of it that way because people do argue for economic
benefits in war. They're just careful about who they're talking
to when they say it. You know, they read the room.
So that's why you'll hear a politician and maybe in
a public facing environment say something like we're protecting our
(36:31):
national interest but what are those national interests exactly? It's
a good question, Well what do you think those national
interests are? You can find us on the internet, right
let us know. Absolutely, we we would love to hear
if you've got stories about the history of Cuba, about
the history of Guantanamo obey, anything that's related to what
(36:53):
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(37:34):
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(38:06):
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