Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to this week's classic episode, Fellow conspiracy Realist. We're
saying this week because this is a two parter that
is unfortunately timely. We had a fantastic series of conversations
with the one and only Mike Render on October of
twenty twenty, and Mike Render has unfortunately passed away, so
(00:24):
we wanted to We wanted to air this two part
conversation again just because we think it's we think it's important,
and we think it is incredibly valuable for people who
are curious about the controversy surrounding scientology and have more
questions that maybe they're afraid to ask.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Sometimes.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that
interview is probably the most starstruck I've ever been, because
I've been such a fan of those documentaries Louis thru
and the Panorama documentary where Mike Render appears back in
his Scientology bulldog days, and to see somebody an about
face to that degree and become not only an outspoken
(01:06):
critic of something that he was once such an integral
part of a cog in their machine, to also be
kind of just a really nice dude and a really
easy person to talk to. It was a really wonderful
time and I'm sad that he's passed.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yeah, Mike is and was a fascinating individual and has
done a lot of things that none of us listening
right now have ever done and will ever do. So
let's learn what we can from.
Speaker 5 (01:34):
Him, from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History
is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now
or learn the stuff they don't want you to know.
A production of Iheartrading.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Is no they call me Ben. We are joined as
always with our super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly,
you are. You are here and that makes this stuff
they don't want you to know. In previous episodes over
the years, we have covered aspects of quite a controversial
(02:25):
organization that's familiar to all of our longtime listeners. That
is the Church of Scientology, the concept of scientology in general.
You'll note we did a previous episode several YouTube videos
on something called Operations snow White. We've also delved into
simpler waters in the past, but today we are immensely
(02:49):
fortunate to be speaking with someone who has extensive first
hand experience. As we always say, we like to go
to primary sources when possible, and that is why today
we are I'll say we are over the moon to
speak with Mike Render, a former senior Scientology executive as
(03:12):
well as the co creator of the new podcast Scientology
Fair Game. Mike, thanks so much for hopping on the
show with us today.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Oh you're very welcome, guys. I'm really happy to be here.
As one of my friends said, this is four white
males all and she said, yes, but they're good white males.
Speaker 7 (03:39):
So I think I know, I think I know who
you're talking about. And and technically we're uh, if you
look at the four of us naggregate, we're mostly white.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
But splitty splitty to Hair's the site, you know, Mike,
this podcast is doing some tremendous work in terms of
clarifying questions people outside of the organization have had, correcting
some myths, and giving an inside look into Scientology that
(04:13):
many people would not have otherwise had the chance to
experience or learn about. So one of our first questions
for today is, well, it's a little bit of a
loaded question, perhaps what was your inspiration for the creation
of Scientology, fair game, and could you tell us a
little bit about how it came about.
Speaker 6 (04:33):
Sure, really the inspiration was COVID nineteen. I know that
that's a sort of a wise guy answer, but the
truth of the matter is, after the end of the
Scientology and the aftermath, which was the TV show that
Leah and I had done, we wanted to continue to
(04:57):
move into new areas and to explore things in more
depth and to be able to cover some of the
ground that we just were not able to cover on
that program. And initially our thought was, well, we'll just
do another TV show, and then the COVID hit and
(05:18):
there was no way of doing a TV show. And
someone suggested to us, you know, you guys should start
doing a podcast. And you know, I already have a
blog that I do every day, and Leah was like, well,
this sounds interesting. Do you think that we can do
I said, well, yes, it's great because we can do
(05:40):
it from home. We don't have to go anywhere, we
don't need a shoot crew, we don't need a whole
bunch of people. We can just sit down and interview
people or talk amongst ourselves and cover a lot of
stuff that we haven't been able to cover before, So
I guess it's not an in correct answer to say
(06:01):
that it was the pandemic that was the inspiration. But
it really is simply our desire to keep chipping away
at this monolithic monstrosity that is scientology by providing more
and more information in whatever forum we can, and this
(06:24):
is a great one. We're thoroughly enjoying doing this podcast.
I have a terrific time because we get to chat
with people and there's sort of no real restrictions or limitations.
You don't have, Oh we've got to get in six
minutes before the next ad spot, and we've got to
(06:45):
you know, it has to be a forty three minute
program that, like broadcast television, has got a lot more
things that people don't even realize who haven't ever done it.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Oh, for sure, I don't think alone and Covid being
an inspiration to start a podcast. It seems like there's
been sort of a podcast golden age that has sprung
up around around covid, for sure. Yeah, it's it's definitely
been an interesting time and happy that that this led
to this podcast from you and Leah. Can you talk
a little bit about the practice of fair gaming and
(07:20):
the idea that sort of led to the title of
the podcast, and where you kind of fit into that
in terms of the organization, and just give listeners a
little bit of a background about this practice and where
you kind of fit sure.
Speaker 6 (07:33):
Fair gaming is or is a term that was coined
by l. Run Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, for the
activity of dealing with the enemies of scientology. And l.
Run Hubbard, like all cult leaders, had proclivity to designating
(07:55):
a US versus them world and that there was allays
some monsters out there that are out to get us scientologists,
and those monsters have to be vanquished. And the practice
in Scientology is called fair game, and it really means
(08:16):
to do anything necessary to obliterate that which is perceived
to be an enemy. And Scientology loves to say, well,
fair gaming is being a fair game. The term fair
game is being canceled, and that actually is true. L.
Run Hubbard issued a policy letter, but policy letter is
(08:39):
the official Scientology documents and writings of L. Run Hubbard
that are considered to be scripture of the religion. And
I use religion in quotation mauks and church in quotation
mauks You can't see me doing that because you're only
(09:00):
hearing me. But this is my quotation Marx, just like that. Yes,
and this is the scripture of scientology. And Hubbard fancied
himself as many things. I mean, he claimed to be
everything from a master photographer, to a master mariner, to
(09:21):
a horticulturalist, to a great researcher, to a philosopher, to
a race car driver, to like anything and everything. But
one of the things that he claimed to be was
an intelligence officer in from naval intelligence during the war,
and that he had studied all the arts of intelligence,
(09:44):
and that he was an expert on covert operations and
black propaganda and all of these things. And he wrote
extensively in Scientology about how you go about employing all
these techniques to destroy your enemies. And I'll just go
back because I mentioned that he said that he had
(10:05):
canceled this fair game. Yes, he laid out all of
these dictates on how you go about destroying someone, and
he called it fair game. But then that became public
and created some media flaps back in the sixties, so
he wrote a policy letter that said cancelation of fair game.
(10:27):
And I'm going to quote this paraphrase it, but it's
almost verbatim. The use of the term fair game is canceled.
It brought about bad public relations, so we will no
longer use the term, But nothing about how we treat
enemies of scientology changes. So Scientology comes out routine lean says,
(10:55):
we don't do fair game. It was canceled by l
Ron Hubbard. Fair game is dead. Game doesn't exist. Fair game,
this fair game. That so Lee and I went, you
know what, we're gonna call out show fair game, just
to stick it so that it you know, we know
that that's a bunch of bullshit, and we're not gonna
(11:16):
to subscribe to the lies and the obfiscation and the
misdirection and whatever that Scientology likes to engage in. And
you asked me, also, null, what's my involvement, Well, my
involvement is you.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Were one of the vanquishers. I mean, it's correct.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
I was for almost two decades the head of what
is called the Office of Special Affairs of Scientology, and
the Office of Special Affairs is the department of Scientology
designated with the responsibility of destroying the enemies of scientology.
(11:57):
So that was my sp Yeah, correct, suppressive persons SPS,
and I went from destroying SPS to being the SP
to be destroyed.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
I want to I want to talk more about that,
But the first thing that comes to mind is the vocabulary.
Speaker 6 (12:17):
Mike.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
I don't know if you've seen that show, The Vow
that's on HBO Max right now.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
Oh, it's wonderful, and in fact, we interviewed Mak Vicente
last week on our podcast.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Oh that's amazing.
Speaker 6 (12:29):
Yeah, should listen to it. It's it's an amazing episode
because the parallels between Keith Rinieri and Nexium and Scientology
are astonishing.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Well, what I wanted to get to you, yeah, are
the similarities. Because as I'm watching that show and thinking
about Scientology and what we've learned on this show in
the past, something that really struck me where those similarities
you're talking about. And one of the big things that
I noticed is this, on the surface, a self improvement
(13:02):
program for the individual, right and it's aided introspection appears
to be the way that you get to that better
place and you see improvement. But both have this extremely
insular vocabulary, and I just wanted to know in your experience,
how does having a like a large modified vocabulary. How
(13:26):
does it affect the way you think on a regular basis?
Speaker 6 (13:30):
Oh, that is such an amazingly, incredibly smart question that
no one has ever asked me before. Okay, okay, seriously,
this is this is not unique to scientology. If you
now study all high control organizations or cults, you will
(13:54):
find that terminology that limits understand to a confined group
of people is an important aspect of keeping them under
your thumb and control. It makes outsiders all outsiders who
(14:15):
are uninformed and incapable of understanding, and insiders all smarter
than everybody else because they're the only ones that really understand.
And what's so fascinating about nexium is the terminology that
Keith Ranieri stole from scientology is identical. They talk about
(14:37):
technology and levels and ethics. They have disconnection. I mean,
it's it's a crazy amount of parallels between scientology and Nexium.
The big screw up that Keith Rainieri made was he
did not turn it into a religion. He should have.
(15:01):
He could have taken all the money, just like scientology does.
He could have had all the power he wanted, and
he would have had the protection of the First Amendment
in the United States and that protection is almost like
being a superman. You can walk through walls and do
(15:23):
all sorts of things that mere mortals are unable, incapable
or illegal to do, and get away with it. And
that I think was ultimately the downfall of Keith Rinieri.
If he had had the Bruntfreman millions to wage a
(15:46):
legal war on the basis that he was practicing a
religion and that his adherents were following religious beliefs and practices,
he probably would not be in prison right now.
Speaker 8 (16:00):
Well, we're paying taxes, yeah, exactly, exactly. But you know, Ben,
you say that, and that is true.
Speaker 6 (16:11):
But from my perspective, I have always argued that the
more important thing about tax exemption for scientology was not
that they could They didn't pay taxes. Yeah, that sucks.
Every every citizen of the United States is subsidizing scientology.
I mean that is a fact. But Scientology could pay that.
(16:35):
They got plenty of money. They got three billion dollars.
They could pay taxes. More importantly, two things. One with
religious status from the I R S comes no government oversight.
Scientology and religions do not have to file any record
of what they spend their money on. How much they make,
(16:57):
whether they're spending all to hire private investigators to go
around and destroy people's lives, or lawyers to just fuck
with people for the sake of fucking with them. And secondly,
when you walk into court and you tell a judge, uh,
your honor, I am sorry, you are forbidden by the
(17:19):
First Amendment, by constitutional law from engaging even in an
inquiry into whether our practices are appropriate or not. Because
there is a complete separation between courts and religion. You
can't go there. It works, It works all the time.
(17:42):
Scientology has made it well. I help make it work.
It works, and it prevents courts and law enforcement from
taking action where they otherwise would. And so Keith Andnery
made a big screw up because he should have turned
himself into another l run Hubber Messiah.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
That leads me to a question was on my mind, Mike,
as some of our listeners are who are familiar with
your work may know and when I think Maderno alluded
to earlier you were a former senior Scientology executive. I
think a lot of people don't understand like senior it
can mean a lot of things, but I think a
(18:22):
lot of people don't understand the specifics of it until
you've laid out the Office of Special Affairs and such.
This one thing that hit me when I was learning
more about your experiences is that you actually joined Sea Org.
See org itself being one of the I think we're
(18:44):
for outsiders to scientology. That's one of the organizations or
one of the arms of scientology that really baffles a
lot of people. You know, you hear stories of folks
signing billion year contracts. You hear about l. Rod Hubber
I guess also known as the commodore at times living
in international waters to avoid certain legal implications. Was Hubbard
(19:09):
on Sea order on Apollo specifically to avoid legal problems
with the I R s or where there other world
governments evolved or what led him and then ultimately you
to Sea Org.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
Okay, that's a compound question, counselor that's a compound question,
but I will endeavor to answer it. Okay, First of all,
the Sea Organization is probably best analogized to an order
of the Catholic Church, like or the Vatican. This is
(19:47):
the most dedicated people in scientology who live, work, eat, sleep,
and do every other activity within the confines of the
scientology are organization. They are twenty four to seven, three
hundred and sixty five days a year full time scientologists
(20:09):
working for Scientology. And it's not just stories. Every SEOG
member has to sign in order to join up with
the SEOGUE a contract for a billion years. Yes, that's right,
b with a B billion and.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
L.
Speaker 6 (20:26):
Ron Hubbard started the Sea Organization in nineteen sixty seven
after he had been effectively he was living in England
at the time. He had gone to Rhodesia because he
believed that he had been cecil rhodes in a previous lifetime.
He had gone to Rhodesia to reclaim his country, but
(20:49):
had gotten kicked out of the of Rhodesia and then
return tried to return to England, where he was living,
and the government there had effectively banned him from re
entry into the United Kingdom and told him his visa
was being denied for extension. He was already in trouble
(21:09):
with the FDA in the US and the IRS in
the US, so he went, Okay, I'm going to go
buy a boat and sail around in international waters where
I am out of the jurisdiction of any specific government.
The only problem with that is though when you're sailing
(21:31):
in international waters, that's true. As soon as you get
to a port, you were definitely in the jurisdiction of
the government. And he went to Greece and got thrown
out of Greece, he got thrown out of Spain, he
got thrown out of Morocco, he got thrown out of Portugal.
I mean, it was sort of one thing after another,
but he believed that this was the way to stay
(21:55):
out of trouble with government agencies and authorities, and to
some extent that worked for a number of years because
he was able to move from one place to the next,
to the next and sort of out of this hot water,
jump into the next pot, and then that would eventually
(22:16):
boil over and then jump into the next one, until
in nineteen seventy five he sort of went well. Actually,
what happened was he had a heart attack in nineteen
seventy five and I was on board the ship with
him in Curasou, and the medical care there wasn't what
he thought was necessary, so he decided have to go
(22:37):
back to the US. So we all ended up coming
back to the United States and taking up residents in Clearwater, Florida,
which is still the quote spiritual headquarters of scientology in
the world, Clearwater, Florida.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
We're going to pause for a word from our sponsor,
and then we'll be back with more for Mike Render.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
And we're back with our conversation with Mike Render, formerly
of the Church of Scientology. You knew Hubbard. I mean
you you were in the church from a very early
age and you got connected at a relatively high level
pretty early. I think in your teens you were on
that chip and you knew l Ron Hubbard himself. Can
you talk a little bit about how that came to
be from being in Australia and raised scientologist and then
(23:30):
being on this ship in international waters with this you know,
science fiction writer, come religious.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
Guru, yeah, psych ken Okay, no, no, Noel. The truth
of the matter is being raised as scientologist as a
So it's sort of like the the old idea of
(23:57):
families in the Catholic Church sending the oldest son to
the Vatican to serve and ultimately hopefully rise to the
level of being a bishop or whatever. That really was
my idea when I was growing up. Was eventually the
most important thing for me to do, and what I
(24:20):
aspired to do was to work with l Ron Hubbard. Like,
this is in the mind of a scientologist, this is
like sitting at the feet of Buddha. This is like
going and and being personally with the with the ultimate
authority and transcendental, brilliant mind of the universe. And for
(24:47):
a young scientologist and a scientology family, that was kind of, oh,
that's pretty cool. If you can pull that off. There's
not many who do. There were only you know, two
hundred fe fifty people on that ship with l Ron Hubbard.
That was it. That was two hundred and fifty people
in the entire world who got to learn at the
feet of the master. And so it was it was
(25:13):
a privilege and an honor and made the family proud
that I went off to do, you know, serve my
time with l Ron Hubbard. And he was a he
(25:34):
was an enigma in many respects. You know, you read
a lot, you know, since I left scientology, I have
read a lot, and I read a lot about you know,
personality disorders and sociopaths and psychopaths and this and that.
There are a lot of people and they have very
(25:55):
definite characteristics that are that are charterable and documentary and
they all had them. And Hubbard was on one side
astonishingly charming. I mean, he had the ability to charm
people and tell stories and be very gregarious and funny
(26:18):
and endearing almost and on the other side it was
like the Jacqueline Hyde. He was like a raging lunatic.
And it's it's interesting that when at least in my experience,
you are associated with those people. And it's funny because
(26:43):
you know, some of the books talk about this. You
tend to look at others as you see yourself, and
so you look at someone and they're they're like a
they tell jokes and they're kind of nice, and they
they ask how you're doing and are you well, which
(27:03):
was like a Hubbard sort of trait, and you know,
being very solicitous and you know, almost self effacing and
then turning into a rage monster and you go, well,
I guess he just gives a little upset that like
you excuse it because you don't believe that that's the
(27:23):
real person. You believe that that's the anomaly and that
the real person is the good part, because that's how
good people are, and that's how you look at others
sort of through your own lens. And it takes quite
a lot when, particularly when you've been raised to believe
(27:44):
that someone is like the Guru and has the answers
to everything in life and has discovered things that nobody
in the history of the universe has discovered before, to
shake off the idea that they could that the bad
that you were seeing is really bad and that it's
not just an anomaly. And and so you know, like
(28:09):
I said, Hubbard was an enigma. Anybody that you talked
to that actually met the guy will tell you, my God,
he was charming, he was lodger than life. He walked
into a room and the room lit up, and he
was amazing, and there were all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
And then did you ever feel like maybe it was
your like, Oh, I don't want to displease him. I
don't want to bring out that angry sye. It could
be my fault. Maybe I did something wrong.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
Oh, of course. And that's a fundamental principle of scientology.
I was even going to get to that noll a
fundamental principle. And Hubbard was a genius in developing a
lot of the things that he did in scientology, because
the idea in scientology is that you were responsible for
(28:54):
everything about your state of being, and if good things
happened to you, it's because you're good. But if bad
shit happens to you, it's good things happen to you,
it's because scientology taught you how to how to experience
the good. If bad stuff happens to you, it's because
of your own evil transgressions, violations of the more rays
(29:19):
of the group. And if you look inside your own
head and figure out what it is that you have
done that has caused this bad shit to happen to you,
it will all resolve. So you look and you go,
oh my god, the old man is really he's really pissed.
He's upseting me. What did I do? How did I
(29:42):
cause that to happen? And that is probably the biggest
trap of scientology. You look around, because David Buskavitch has
a lot less redeeming qualities than el Ron Hubbard. He's
got a lot lot more bad traits and a lot
(30:03):
less sort of charismatic nice things that you could say
about him. And you look around, you go, but there's
people there that have been there for twenty years and
that he's beating them, and he's abusing them. He spits
on them, he calls them names, he curses them out,
he has them dig shit out of the toilets, you know,
(30:25):
et cetera, et cetera. Why do they put up with it?
The reason they put up with it is because they
have been indoctrinated to believe because they're somehow bad and
they haven't discovered what their evil is yet. But if
they keep working at it, they'll get there.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Right, They're being punished for a reason. You know, you
said something you said two really interesting things previously, Mike,
where you said you alluded to something called the prison
of the mind for or people who are practicing scientology,
and then you had also said I won't do a
compound question this time, promise. You had also said that
(31:09):
David Miskovich in particular, seemed kind of like an anomalous
nutcase until you read a book called The Sociopath next Door?
Is was that the correct one?
Speaker 6 (31:21):
Yes, brilliant book by Matha Stell, doctor Matha Stell.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah. And from what we understand about the good and
the bad of scientology, the idea is that one should
one should be able to control one's emotions. So isn't
that kind of a contradiction that he would be so
filled with rage.
Speaker 6 (31:46):
It's a complete contradiction. And it's a contradiction for another reason.
And there is tons and tons and tons of contradictions
in scientology. You don't see them until you get out.
But think about what I just told you about the
the idea that when something bad has happened to you,
(32:07):
it's because of your evil doing for everybody except the
guy at the top. For the guy at the top,
his upset or bad stuff happening to him is because
everybody else is doing bad stuff to him. For everybody underneath,
what's that bad stuff happening to them is because of
(32:28):
what they did. When it comes to David Muskavetcher, Elround Hubbard,
now that that rule suddenly goes out the window, that
rule becomes David Muskvitch is being abused by his subordinates.
They are seeking to upset him, they are destroying him,
and they must look inside them, their hearts and their
(32:51):
minds to figure out why they are seeking to destroy
this great man. And that was the same with El
Run Hubbard. And you're exactly right, Ben, The idea that
you fly off into rage and start beating the crap
out of people is the example of the pinnacle of
(33:11):
the scientology world, that this is what this would be like.
You know, the Dalai Lama. The stories start coming out
about the Dalai Lama that you know, he's got a
sword set in in his place over there, and when
someone displeases him, he chops their fingers off, you know,
like it's just it doesn't it doesn't match up with
(33:34):
what is presented to the world that scientology teaches you
and processes you if you pay enough money to eradicate irrational,
mis emotional responses to the stimuli of the world. And
(33:55):
it's a huge contradiction.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Absolutely, we're gonna make a quick break here and we'll
be back very.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Shortly, and we're back, Okay, So.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
I think that right there. I haven't honestly, I have
not listened to much of your your show Scientology Fair
Game yet I cannot wait to. But I imagine that
you guys get into quite a bit of discussion about
David and a lot of that on your show. Would
that be correct?
Speaker 6 (34:31):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (34:31):
Absolutely, that okay, that's awesome. Again, just from a group
of guys who've been making a show for a long time,
that sounds like a terrifying thought just when you think about.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Possible.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
You know the things that scientology has done in the
past with its First Amendment rights and large bags of
money that they have. But I want to I want
to talk specifically about you and experienced that your co
host of Scientology for game, Lea Remedy, had at one
point in her life. She was well, I guess I
(35:07):
don't know. I force would be the correct word. She
was told to go to a facility in Clearwater, Florida
that you mentioned for a thing that was termed reprogramming.
Can can you talk to us about what that term
means within the context of scientology.
Speaker 6 (35:22):
Yes, I'm going to try and do this without using
too much scientologies in the description. But Leah made the
mistake of questioning the judgment and activities of Tom Cruise
and David Muskavitch, and for that that is a modal
(35:43):
sin when the world of scientology. She was told that
she must go to the facility in clear Water at
her own expense, and it ultimately cost her three hundred
thousand dollars, Yes, three hundred thousand dollars to receive this
(36:03):
scientology auditing and auditing in Scientology is you know what
the term that is used to describe scientology counseling, and
it is done with this like little e meader that's
sort of like a little light detector. You hold these
(36:23):
two cans and it registers, and the person that's doing
on the other side sort of goes, oh, you've got this,
or you know, tell me about that or whatever. Yeah,
I want to know. And it was to get her
to effectively admit that everything, every critical thought, every criticism
(36:48):
that she had were stemmed from something that she had done.
And it's exactly what I was telling you before. This
is a very very very fundamental concept in scientology. It's
not just if bad stuff happens to you. If you
talk shit about someone, it's because you've done bad things
(37:11):
to them. So it's the idea that you're critical of
someone because you have done something to hurt them or
harm them in some way. So now are seeking to
make less of them so that you can make it
seem that what you are doing and saying is correct.
(37:32):
It's that the problem with it is, and this is
the problem with a lot of scientology, there is some
fundamental truth to these things. There is some kernel of
truth there is not a lot in scientology that is
just sheer bullshit. There is a lot that is take
(37:54):
a thing and turn it into something with a twisted
lot that changes actually it what it started out being,
into something that is almost diametrically opposed. And you see
that in the vowel too. You see how Rnieri managed
(38:16):
to twist things that had some fundamental concept or idea
in it, like being living up to your word, and
turned that into being a slave. Now, how you get
from one to the other is kind of astonishing, but
he managed to convince plenty of people to do it,
(38:36):
to the point where they were calling up and asking,
am I allowed to eat another thirteen caligories? Master? That
is crazy. But just like scientology, something there was some
fundamental principle that you could agree with, or a truth
that you could agree with that then gets built upon
(38:59):
and built up and sort of interpreted and twisted. And
that's what happens with these concepts in scientology. And that's
what Leo was doing there for all that time. Was
until she had found something that explained every single critical
(39:19):
thought or comment she had made, she was not free
to go.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
This hits on another thing that's been often talked about
again from outside reports and often from former members of
the organization, which is the idea of essentially being held
against one's will being allowed to go. It makes me
think specifically of the news that we hear every so
(39:47):
often about David Muskevich's spouse, who has been out of
the public eye for quite a long time. Mike, is
it true that this organization has or does hold people
against their will or is it more of like an
emotional peer pressure?
Speaker 6 (40:03):
Okay, yes, this organization does hold people against their will.
They can be forcibly held and restrained and prevented from leaving.
And I have seen that happen, and it is or
people locked in a room and not let out, that
sort of stuff. But that's not really what the problem is.
(40:26):
The problem is people being held based on their will
because their will has been bent and they believe that
what they are doing is ultimately going to be their salvation.
That and you know Larry Wright in his brilliant book
Going Clear that he's subtitled Scientology and the Prison of Belief,
(40:51):
because that's what it is. This is the Stockholm syndrome.
This is the idea that you can and change someone's
thinking to the point where they believe that staying is
best for them, even if staying means being locked in
a room and sleeping on the floor and being tortured
(41:15):
every day, and you know, like crazy stuff. But you
this is not limited to scientology either. You know, look
at the people that were at Jonestown, Look at the
people that are in fundamentalist Mormon. You know, Warren Jeff's
turning the kids over to some weirdo pervert to be
(41:38):
to become their sex slaves. I mean, this is and
this is a concept that is very, very difficult to
persuade anybody to act upon. And what I mean by
that is so often you see people seeking justice for
(42:03):
what has been done to them, and courts and law
enforcement don't recognize that twisting someone's mind is like is
just is just as damaging and intrusive and inappropriate than
(42:25):
twisting their arm. But because it's not a physical you know,
there's no physical assault, and the law is about assault
and battery. There's no law about assault and battery of
the mind. And so a lot of this stuff goes
(42:45):
and you know, people don't courts don't know what to
do with it. Do they believe that someone was brainwashed.
Do they buy into the idea that such a thing
as brainwashing exists, even if you call it by another name,
call it brainwashing, mental coercion, whatever. Is that something that
is actionable? Is that something that you can do something about?
(43:07):
Can you prove it? It's But believe me, it is way
way more down. You can recover from a twisted arm,
it's much harder to recover from a twisted mind.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Well, and you can also take a photograph of a
bruise and enter it into an exhibit in court. You
can't take a photograph of a damaged mind or even prove.
The burden for proving like pain and suffering or psychological
damage so much higher than being able to say, this
person punched me, and here's the proof, here's a polaroid,
and it's done. You know, you can't do it. And
(43:44):
and then this leads to, I mean, quickly, just to
follow up. Clearly, you and Leo were able to disconnect,
you know, and and go on with your lives, you know,
But still that has resulted as you being top listed
people folks who can threaten the church.
Speaker 6 (44:01):
I mean, god, you know that to me is is easy. Again,
it's the mind it's the twisting of the mind to
believe that you are foregoing your eternity, that if you
if you walk away from this, you're losing your family,
(44:22):
You're losing your friends, You're losing everything that you've ever known.
That if there's something, I mean, these guys managed to compartmental.
I've heard John Travalda say this often, Well, you know,
I don't know everything that's going on. Bullshit. I don't
know everything that's going on. Uh not really, I don't
(44:43):
know everything that's going on. But what I do know
is that scientology has helped me. So why wouldn't I
continue to participate in something that has helped me? And
that is a pretty unassailable position to take because who
you to say, well, hasn't helped you? Look at your dummy,
it hasn't helped you. But it is also you can
(45:09):
ask John Travolta, well, have you watched The Aftermath? Did
you read the did you read the article in the
Tampa Bay Times? Have you read Lawrence Wright's book? Why
would I do that? Why would I want to read
bad stuff about something that has helped me? And this
is another thing that scientology and naxiom and everyone else
(45:34):
has made a very a sort of a study of
how do you persuade people not to look at anything
bad about you? How do you persuade them that it
is harmful to them spiritually? If they look at something bad,
it's going to detract from their progress in scientology, and
(45:56):
ultimately code code cost them more money to have to
undo the bad effects of that on them. And when
I'm saying to you this, realize for a scientologist, if
they go read US magazine and there is a negative
(46:18):
story about Tom Cruise in there, or Leah remedi is
interviewed in US magazine, they are going to have to
go in and pay for the auditing that unburdens them
of the horrible sin of having looked at something negative
about scientology, because that's regressed them in their progress.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
So many questions we may not get to all of them,
but this reminds me, Mike of the massive dump of
internal documents from WikiLeaks a few years back, which I
know was a huge deal inside the organization I can
only imagine, but definitely outside the organization, and we were
stunned when we realize that people who were in the
(47:03):
organization were being told, look, this is out there, but
don't read it, you know what I mean, treat it
as though it doesn't exist.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
And I.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
See now the financial incentive inherent there. You had earlier
said Scientology is worth three billion dollars with a lack
of oversight. Do people ever reach a point in the organization?
Do they progress to a point where they're no longer
(47:38):
being asked to pay money for audits or anything like that.
Speaker 4 (47:48):
It's a gift.
Speaker 6 (47:50):
Seriously, you can reach the very top of the Scientology
bridge to total freedom and then be told op, sorry,
we found something new. You need to go back and
start over. And this is something that Nixim has too.
I was speaking to Sarah Emanson the other day and
(48:11):
she told me, she said, do you know we had
to redo our training. We'd get all, we get our
scarf or whatever those things sash and then they'd come
out and say, oh no, you have to go back
and redo it all and you have to pay again.
And it's the same thing in Scientology. You have to
redo it. And we got we found some new I'm
(48:32):
just formally unknown piece of information from l Ron Hubbard
that was buried in someone's suitcase under their bed somewhere
and suddenly, now everything that you did before has to
be redone. And not only that, we now have a
new fundraising program. We have to buy new facilities for
(48:54):
every church in the world, and we call these ideal
Orgs and signed Ptology has been opening these buildings around
the world for the last twenty years on a theory
that David Biskavitch presented as scientologists that in order for
scientology to truly expand, it had to have buildings and
(49:17):
facilities that would allow all aspects of scientology to be
presented in an appropriate fashion for everyone. So we need
new buildings and they have to be x number of
square feet and it's going to cost twenty million dollars
and blah blah blah blah. So pay up and this
pay up for that, and for the Another thing called
(49:41):
the International Association of Scientologists, which is a is a scam.
It's just a scam. It's like scientologists believe that giving
money to the International Association of Scientologists is helping educate
children in Africa, or save people from hurricanes, or you know,
(50:04):
do good work for the victims of earthquake in Haiti
or whatever. And it's bullshit. It does not happen. The
most that happens is they go and shoot a video
and then they show everybody, look at this video. We
got five people in this video, but there were thousands
more that you just can't see. And keep giving us money,
(50:27):
and we will give you these gaudy bowling pin bowling
trophies and start calling you Platinum Excalibur something or other,
or Platinum Meritorious Patron of the Gluteus Maximus or like
it's like these bizarre, absurd names, and people hand over
(50:53):
ten fifty million dollars and like I said, with no oversight,
Scientology never has to show its books. They never have
to show it.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
Tithing, right, isn't that basically the same thing as tithing
to a.
Speaker 6 (51:06):
Church, like well, if tithing money, if tithing, well, you
typically you think of tithing as like ten percent. If
tithing was fifty, that's more of the Scientology model fifty
or more. Like Scientology is ruthless about getting money. Go
take a loan, go you know, get cash in your
(51:28):
your college fund, get your stocks, sell your stocks, sell
your house, do whatever. Get us the money now, because
this money right now is going to save the world.
They've been saying that for fifty years and things aren't
going so good.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Our conversation with Mike Render continues and it goes in
some fascinating to a degree disturbing places, so much so
that we did not want to cut any of it,
and we have decided to make this a two part episode.
We promised that this is going to be worth it.
(52:09):
We hope that you join us for part two of
this interview, which is coming out later this week. In
the meantime, we highly recommend checking out Mike and Leah's
new podcast Scientology Fair Game, and that's our classic episode
(52:30):
for this evening. We can't wait to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
It's right let us know what you think.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
You can reach.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
You to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on
Facebook x and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok work Conspiracy
Stuff Show.
Speaker 4 (52:42):
If you want to call us dial one eight three
three STDWYTK that's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes,
give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if
we can use your name and message on the air.
If you got more to say than can fit in
that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old
fashioned email.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
We are the entities that read every single piece of
correspondence we receive, be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the
void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 4 (53:29):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.