July 14, 2021 • 53 mins
Born in 1933, Donald Henry "Pee Wee" Gaskins Jr was a prolific serial killer and rapist in South Carolina. Authorities still aren't sure how many people he may have murdered. In this episode, the guys join Jeff Keating, the host of Pee Wee Gaskins Was Not My Friend, to learn more about the this murderer's early life, his crimes, and how he eventually got caught.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Null, and they
called me Ben. We are joined as always with our
super producer Paul Mission Controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this the stuff they
don't want you to know. A quick disclaimer as we
get in today's show, fellow conspiracy realist, this episode contains
(00:45):
at times graphic descriptions of violent crime, and as such
may not be suitable for all listeners. We are not
diving into today's story alone. Instead, we are accompanied, very
fortunately accompanied by Jeff Keating of filmmaker and podcaster, founder
of Doghouse Pictures and the creator of numerous shows and
(01:06):
award winning documentaries as such as Living Is Winning as
well as his podcast Fight Night. Today, we're excited to
have Jeff here in digital person to tell us a
little bit more about his newest show, Pee Wee Gaskins
Was Not My Friend, which delves deep into the story
of South Carolina's most notorious mass murderer and someone many people,
(01:29):
surprisingly enough, have have not heard about. Welcome to the show, Jeff,
Thanks so much for coming, Jeff. What's up? Guys. Thank
you so much for having me. Really appreciate it. Jeff.
It's interesting you and I've worked together on a couple
of other projects in the past, including the show that
Ben mentioned, Fight Night, which is in and of itself,
a really cool show about this massive kind of like
(01:51):
underworld heist that takes place here in Atlanta where we're
all recording. You're in Atlanta native as well. Um, and
it takes place on the night of the big Muhammad
Ali comeback fight. Um. Yeah, what kind of a different
direction for Peewee Gaskins was not my friend? Um, it
really is another story of kind of the noir you know,
aspects of the South, but very much it's just a
(02:13):
story about a truly cold blooded psychopath, um that many
people have not heard of. How how would you describe
Peewee Gaskins two people that maybe aren't familiar with his
twisted legacy? Well, the name itself, because first of all,
I was like, you knowl And and Team. I didn't
(02:33):
know much about pee Weee myself would rarely even heard of.
I mean, I'm a true crime fanatic. I've covered this
obviously for you know, fifteen twenty years. As far as
just really enjoying stories, now, I tend to lean more
towards a mob true crime. That's my I guess if
you there's a sub genre within true crime, that's that's
my favorite. But I also love serial killers, you know,
(02:56):
the show Mine Hunters on Netflix and some other of
things like that. I really enjoyed that kind of stuff.
So Peewee. When I first heard about him, the name
obviously grabbed me. And then when I found out his
stature and how small he was, that was kind of
interesting to see. And once I looked into who this
(03:19):
guy was a little bit more and seeing again just
how small he was and how high pitched his voice was,
it was just a weird dichotomy between the violent crimes
that he committed and who he was now. Again, oftentimes,
you know, somebody could have a big chip on their
shoulder or could be pushed to the limit for certain things.
But whenever you have somebody so small with such a
(03:41):
high pitch voice, you you you usually don't put those
two things together. So when I started to understand his
crimes and who he was. That was very interesting. And
then I realized who this guy was, which was a
master manipulator, a trailer park kingpin of sorts, somebody that
had traveled with the carnival ring for years and the
(04:05):
people that traveled with him seemed to be a good
fit for what he was doing. Car thefts, you know,
petty thefts, things like that. So very interesting character and
just to stay in this realm before we even get
into the crimes of Donald Peewee Gaskins, I wanna ask
you about a story that was told in the latest
episode of the podcast, came out this past Monday. I
(04:26):
think it was called Loved Her to Death. And there's
a story in there where a former employer of Peewee's
tells a story about Peewee strength. And the story is
about something with a tire, like a truck tire. Do
you remember that? Can you tell us that story? Yeah?
I do, and and and it's hard to because the
(04:47):
employer did mention that, and so I think it had
something to do with like physically maybe getting the rim off. Now, again,
I'm not a big car guy, you know, one of
those some people could change tires. I might changed one before,
but I think it had something to do with like
getting the rim off of the tire itself using very
(05:07):
little tools or minimal tools, and the way that that
employer described it, the strength to do that is very,
very difficult, even with the tools themselves. So yes, I
agree with you, and I don't even know if we
put this story in as well. Matt, but he also
was known to like lift huge tons or things over
his head, so his strength was massive especially for him.
(05:29):
He also had experience with a great experience with automobiles
in general, right, he had familiarity. He also trained himself
to have a very powerful karate child, that's right, by
by basically using the metal end of his bed and
hitting it repeatedly, and I mean hundreds or thousands of
(05:51):
times to build up I guess that muscle or whatever
it was. I think we may even cover that story
more a little bit in this upcoming episode. But but yeah,
and then again, guys, you know you've got to imagine
you're in reform school and all these things. Early on,
you're probably beat up for your status, so you're you're
just building a toughness. A nail's tough exterior throughout your
(06:15):
whole life, you know, because of again your environment. You
know what you were um exposed to early on, the beatings,
all of that stuff. This guy was no joke. I
want to expand on the what you brought up, Matt,
the idea of anecdote here, Jeff. In the course of
the show, the listener encounters multiple people who have had
(06:40):
personal experience with Gaskins, and one thing that's fascinating before
we even get to the first episode, just overall, one
thing it was fascinating to me is that many of
these people come to some surprising agreements about the nature
of gaskins character. And one thing that really stood out was,
oddly enough, people would talk about how he was at
(07:02):
times apparently charming and charismatic, you know, and some folks
said he was, you know, a monster and human flesh,
and other folks said that they said, like he was
actually he could seem really friendly if you didn't know
who you were talking to, and that because that surprised me,
I wanted to ask you in the course of this story,
(07:23):
what surprised you. Were there any things that really really
surprised you about the way people talked about Gaskins or
his interactions. Well, here's what I do again. A lot
of people approach stories in different ways. I'm not an
investigative reporter, and there's a lot of people that do
true crime that have either that background or approach it
(07:45):
that way. I approach it more of a story that
I'm interested in. I'm a guide for the audience. Sometimes
I have some unknown things that come my way that
I just want to explore that I think the audience
will be interested in as well. And so with this
particular guy in this case, when I first heard about it,
and you, guys, I'm sure imagine this as well, it's like,
(08:06):
this is a serial killer or a mass murderer. How
how can you fall for this behavior whatever it is.
But then you hear over the past of many of
these famous serial killers or mass murders, how charming they are,
how they can ingratiate themselves into communities or families or
groups or whatever it is. And so I thought, I
(08:29):
put myself back in these guys shoes years ago, and
I was like, you know, there's no way you would
fall for that. But I was never in front of
this guy. I was never um faced with his with
his charm or manipulation or the power of this guy
staring at you from across the table, or you know,
making a deal with you, whatever it was. So you
think it may be one way, but you've never faced
(08:51):
this guy personally, and so as much as I tried
to imagine that, I really had to listen to all
these people that actually had faced and come in contact
with him and realize, Man, this guy was a snake charmer.
This guy was a manipulator. And and you may think
that you could um fight his uh you know, charming abilities,
(09:13):
but most oftentimes you could not. Can't out slither a snake, right,
This is something I thought a lot about with the
very first episode, where you do something fascinating this This
isn't a spoiler. We'll hear it, folks as soon as
you tune in. We don't start in a linear way, right,
We don't start at Gaskin's birth or his childhood or
(09:38):
his first crime, but with another story that takes place
while Gaskin is already incarcerated. What what inspired you to
approach it from this angle particularly, we needed to basically
have a set up for the show of one of
the main murders, which you see in that first one
is Rudolph Tyner and how it really connects to all
(10:02):
of the past murders and the unwitning accessory of that
last murder, and how he or she is going to
play a part in this entire podcast. So it was
unusual the way we did it. It's almost kind of
like a standalone story, but we felt to book in
this podcast with that particular crime and murder, and as
(10:24):
you'll see at the very end, how it all plays out.
It was the perfect way to tie it all in.
You know, it's interesting. I think it's probably best left
for folks to experience this themselves without going into the
details of this crime. But let's just suffice it to
say that, uh Gaskins, in a very very clever way,
(10:45):
orchestrates essentially a hit on a man that he doesn't
like from within prison. And that's a key, I think
to Gaskin's personality a man that he doesn't like. Gaskins
had a code. He he didn't He wasn't like other
serial killers who killed out of some perverse fetish or
some sort of like drive to just feed this hunger.
(11:05):
He was more like a mafiosa or something he'd be
bumped people off who he didn't feel met his standards
or in some way, you know, had wronged him, or
he wanted to get rid of a rival. Can you
tell us a little bit about, you know, his personal
code and what are some of the things that might
have put you or I on Peewee's hit list Before
(11:27):
I get to that. It's a good question. You tapped
on something. I'm a big fan of subcultures. So like
in Fight Night, the subculture was hustlers of the early
seventies in in Atlanta and then traveling you know, up
to New York and down to Miami, but really getting
into the world and the subculture of these hustlers. So
(11:47):
in this particular story, it's basically trailer park kingpins and
and traveling carnivals and the people that were in these
traveling carnivals and the type of work environment that they
were in the way they became family in an unusual way.
So so that was interesting for me to explore that.
(12:07):
And then Peewee's relationship to that. Noel was basically his
code was a couple of things. Betrayal was something that
he despised, I think the most out of anything one
of his codes are. Part of his codes was you
don't talk outside the circle, and that was I love
(12:28):
this phrase. I'm not sure if Jim are one of
our main characters or Pee Wee came up with this,
but it was called jaw in you don't you don't
go jawing to the police or to other members in
the community. And I assume that means you know, speak
out of turn. So so jowen was one of the
big things of his code. Another thing Noel that was
(12:51):
interesting was he was a protector supposedly of children and
younger people for certain things profanity, uh, certain behaviors around them.
Now again he goes on to kill some of these
younger people, and in fact a lot of the people
that ended up falling to his knife or gun were younger,
(13:14):
especially women. But for some reason there was a protector side.
So profanity was a big thing I heard. He rarely, ever,
if ever cussed uh and hated when people did it,
maybe in front of him, but specifically in front of children.
That was another part of his code. But the biggest
one knowal I think would be the betrayal meaning do
(13:34):
not cross him, and and specifically the jaw and don't
talk about me or my crimes or what we're doing
to anybody else. You know, it's interesting you say that, Jeff,
because we see some of those I guess a way
to vastly understated is we see some of those moral
dichotomies or contradictions in a lot of extremely disturbed people,
(14:00):
even to the point you've seen it in fiction like
uh Annie in Misery, right, who also hates cursing, and
Stephen King's Misery. This leads me to think, um, you know,
when we're talking a little bit about the mind of
someone who's a mass murder or serial killer. Another interesting
thing is that Gaskins, like other folks like Henry Lee
(14:24):
Lucas and so I, was prone to bouts of embellishments, exaggeration,
and investigators suspect in many case, in some cases outright lying.
Uh Before he was put to death by the State
of South Carolina back about fifty eight years old, he
had he made statements claiming, you know, I've committed many
(14:44):
more murders. I've committed more than a hundred murders, right,
How how many do how? It's a very strange I mean,
usually psychologists say that's a push for notoriety. But my
question for you is, when you were speaking with people
familiar with the case, how how much weight do investigators
put in his statements? There you've got, we've got one
(15:07):
person you speak with who says everybody who says. When
he was getting calls from people in as far away
as Australia to talk about UH, to talk about Gascon's crimes,
they kept trying to get him to like agree with
these higher numbers, and he refused to. So what's the truth?
Do we know or will we ever know? We don't know.
(15:28):
And that's what I find so fascinating. And I think
with any of these true crime cases, unless maybe you've
got a hundred witnesses that see exactly what's going on,
you have forensics evidence, you have witnesses, you have investigators,
but unless you're actually there for these murder themselves, we
just don't know. So I would say ben as a whole,
(15:51):
that most people thought it came in around eleven or
twelve murders, and that the legend of all those additional
murders was us that of sometimes people talking of reporters
covering stories, of people gossiping around a community, and as
you know, things grow from there. So I would say,
(16:13):
as a whole, the people that we talked to and
the investigators and attorneys and prosecutor stuff, felt it was
around a dozen and the rest became legend. Now again,
the legend can sometimes become so powerful and become so youthful,
even for a serial killer as well, But we don't know, Ben,
(16:34):
and I always find that a good place to rest
because it allows us to examine that the evidence ourselves
and make a decision based on what we hear. You know,
what do we think, you know, based on all this
stuff and these stories and this transcripts and stuff, where
do we think the truth lies? You know? If the
(16:54):
other forgive my my ignorance here, Jeff, but I I
am imagined that some of those legendary things, or maybe
even things that actually happened that just can't be proven,
occurred when he was traveling with you know, the carnival
or you know something, some things occurred that we just
no one will ever know about. And I just wondered
(17:16):
if you thought maybe that was even a possibility. I
think that's very fair to say, Matt, because again, if
you're talking about somebody that can do this once and
has been accused and convicted of these crimes and then
ultimately executed, which we know he was we don't know
what he was doing all the time or things that
(17:37):
could have been left. And you know, if you're having
these bodies buried in burial fields in one place, what's
going on somewhere else? And we don't know if he
gets angry at one guy that somebody didn't cover years ago.
So I would assume guys, wouldn't you imagine that there's
cases like that all over the country in the world.
We're just gonna take a little break here a word
(17:59):
from our sponsor, but will be right back, and we're back. Jeffy.
We talked to a good bit already about his kind
of outsized, uh mythical persona that really was this kind
of disconnect from his actual stature and like the like
(18:19):
he said, it's kind of like high pitched voice, which
I think probably caused a lot of people to underestimate him. Um,
and he was also a master manipulator, and that he
was even able to kind of get the cops off
his trail literally just like by kind of gives throwing
them this like diversion, like there's a there's a part
where he's like working under a truck or something and
the cops looking for him in connection to him a disappearance,
(18:41):
and he just says, no, Peewee Gascon's here, basically exactly. Yeah. Literally,
it's just like the most Basically, he just had this confidence.
I think that was infectious, and I think that's what
led to this sort of cult of personality you see
with this weird ragtag band of characters that he sort
of had under his way. He almost is this kind
of weird cult leader figure in some ways. Um. But
(19:04):
your friend uh and also um, someone who is a
very important part of the story. Dr Jim Batty had
a really interesting relationship with Peewee he both academically and personally. Um.
And he really gives an incredible perspective on a lot
of these stories and the podcast. Can you speak a
little bit about how you got connected up with Dr
(19:25):
Batty and what their relationship was. Yes, So, a colleague
of mine and good friend, Courtney Dufreeze knew the Batty
family and suggested, based on the fact that he knew Jim,
Dr Batty had done all these interviews with Pee Wee,
maybe a great podcast and a great way to explore
(19:45):
a different angle of somebody that actually sat across the
table from him for Dred interviews, and so I was like, well,
this would be, first of all, just a fascinating guy
to talk to. So when I was able to finally
meet Jim and his wife, Anita, who's in the podcast
as well, I really was interested and wanted to explore
(20:09):
the story of two different men, both who grew up
very close to each other geographically. I think it was
eighty miles apart, Both who were very close in age.
I think they were two to three years apart. Both
who had worked in some of the same places, even
though at different times, a Campbell suit factory that they
came to know once those interviews started, and how they
(20:34):
ended up with such different lives again, jim family manned
uh literary professor, ordained minister, and then pee Wee Gaskins
a mass murderer family as well. But you know, six
different wives if I'm not mistaken, not sure how many kids,
but he had a few. And it drew me to
(20:56):
one of the things that I'm always interested in exploring,
which is nature or versus nurture. So Jim has this beautiful,
lovely upbringing. Pee Wee supposedly had a very rough, tough childhood,
maybe some abuse, some sexual abuse that happened to him.
So Jim wanted to explore this as well as did I.
(21:19):
If if Peewee's upbringing is different, is if he's loved
as a child, if he you know, is not sent
to these tough reform school early on, if he's given
a full education, does he wind up different? And and
I always I'm fascinated and exploring that question. I'm so
glad you see that, Jeff, because this leads us to
(21:41):
another commonality that experts perceive in mass murderers, uh, serial
criminal sexual assaulters in the like, which is that, uh
many many serial murders seem to have these horrific childhoods. Right,
and we know that Gaskin's criminal career started at a
(22:05):
very young age with a trouble trio they called themselves,
I think somewhere in like eleven to thirteen years old. Uh.
And I have a two part question, but but it's
a tough question to really get our minds around. I
don't know where will fall on the on the nature
versus nurture debate, but it felt like some of the
(22:27):
people that you encounter in the course of your journey
have come to a conclusion that some folks are simply
born and evil. Did you run into when you're talking
with people? Did anybody bring up this nature versus nurture argument?
And if so, how did they approach it? How did
they grapple with this? Well? I feel Jim definitely felt
(22:48):
there was a what's the right word. I feel like
Jim thought that there was a direct core correlation between
the two and he felt pretty strongly that if p
we had a loving family or different upbringing, that his
life would have been different. I feel some of the
reporters and some of the I don't know if we
(23:12):
did any psychologist, but I feel there was some other
people that felt the same way Jim did. There may
have been a couple of people that leaned towards born evil,
but I really think after they looked at the whole life,
that it was just this was an evil man and
(23:32):
they couldn't put their fingers on exactly where that all began.
When you go back to your first part of the question,
been my thought is from the fifteen twenty thirty years
of exploring these stories, I can't find one serial killer
or murderer did didn't have a bad upbringing. I'm still
(23:52):
trying to find that one. In fact, I was just
laughing about this the other day. The one movie I
think it was with Nicolas Cage and it was called
eight Millimeter, was a thing about that. And ultimately, at
the end, even though he was in this dark, crazy world,
the antagonist of the movie The Killer says, I had
a loving and and I didn't believe it. It ruined
(24:13):
the movie for me because I was like, No, every
study we've explored has pointed to a traumatic past. It
felt like the script writer said, this is the twist,
you know, And I think it felt that way. I
agree with you if you felt that way, because those
that commonality is so it occurs at such a distressingly
(24:36):
frequent level, you know. I I also am trying to
I've been trying to find someone who had like a
happy home life quote unquote whatever that means. And I
think you're on the money there, Jeff. And listen, trauma
is a very serious thing, guy. And whether it be war,
whether it be abuse as a child, um, you know, psychological,
it could be physical or mental, but especially early on
(25:00):
and then again I think most scientists or doctors will
agree with this. When you have something traumatic, it could
affect your life from there on out. Either you have
to deal with it and you have to recover from it,
or it can affect your behavior moving forward. And so
if you're really having you know, beatings or mental abuse
or whatever it may be early on, I can see
(25:21):
how that affects the line to these stories of these
mass murderers and serial killers. Well, you know. And again,
I keep going back to the contradictions of Peewee's life
because there are a lot of stories where he seems
to be he seems to do something out of just
the kindness of his heart for someone. In this latest episode,
(25:43):
there's a story about an elderly woman that comes to
him with a problem with her transmission, and like, it's
incredible what Pee Wee ends up doing? Could you just
tell that? Because I think that's really like speaking to
when we're talking about good versus bad, versus nature and nurture.
Like the fact that this guy who has done these
horrible things we know of already and this elderly woman
(26:05):
says I need help with my transmission, what does he do?
He ends up stealing a transmission from a car that
is just like hers, and then putting that transmission into
her car, fixing it for this lovely senior citizen. I
think he barely charged her anything, you know, maybe a
few bucks. But that's that's such a great example because
(26:26):
and and no, you were talking about this earlier about
moral code. This moral code is so gray. It's like
he does something illegal to do something good. And I
think they're the balance of pee Wee. And many of
his actions showed that throughout his life. So he felt, hey,
(26:47):
I'm gonna do what I need to to help this lady,
even though it's gonna be you know, in illegal activity
or taking from somebody else. And pee Wee was notorious
for deeds and behaviors like that. Oh you know. And
there's just one last story, guys, and I'll stop talking
about this. There's Um, a young woman who moves in
(27:09):
with him and his wife at the time. I can't
remember exactly which wife it was. I'm so sorry I
can't recall that right now, Jeff. But um a young
woman who moves in with a very tiny child that's
super sick, Like the child is extremely sick. But pee
Wee ends up using his funds and his time and
effort to nurse that child like back to health. Um
(27:32):
and it's not his child, it's just some it's another
woman's child. And to me that is so strange and
and and it does make me wonder about if it's
him doing something getting all psychologists here, doing something for
another child that maybe wasn't done for him, or like
a kindness shown to another child that wasn't done for him.
(27:55):
But he's also a child killer. So anyway, my brain
is exploding thinking about all of that. I don't even
know I have a question here for you. Well, it's hard.
It's hard to wrap your head around all of those stories.
So that's a good example. There's other ones that will
let the audience here within the podcast where he literally
you know, cares for babies or toddler's or you know,
(28:17):
young children, but a lot of these people or young
babies or children become his victims. So it's really hard
to wrap your head around all of this. And again
we're not in this world of you know, underneath this
trailer part Kingpin and this guy that was with people
(28:38):
working in the traveling carnivals who I hear have transient
lives to begin with, and maybe not have the connection
to family except for the people working in the carnivals themselves.
So it's hard to understand this sometimes, Matt, it really is.
It is, But I also think there's a lot of parallels.
And one of my first questions I mentioned, I really
(28:59):
see a connect action between him and like the mafia,
like the code of Omerta. You know, like your your
family until the moment you break that code and then
you're dead to me, literally and and figuratively. Um And
I people probably stick of hearing about it, but you know,
The Sopranos is one of my favorite shows, and I
think Tony Soprano is a really interesting antihero because he
(29:22):
nurtures so many people while also on the other side,
ruining so many lives. Um And he you know, he
will be this advocate for people until they crossed him
in the wrong way, and then he won't think twice
because he feels justified in doing it because they broke
the code. Um and And to me, that's that's what
pee he's doing. Um. He's obviously a terrible person, but
(29:46):
also has this you know, nurturing side. He's a very
complex character. I think you know, and he needs to
retain the power and authority and also avoid prison. So
there's many things that pee Wee was constantly doing within
these relationships that were important to him. I've got to
maintain my power. If somebody knows about a crime that
(30:09):
I've committed, I am going to implicate them in that
crime so that they become an accessory. He was brilliant
at that. Okay, fine, you're gonna jaw about me, I'm
gonna take you down with me. And so that was
something that was constantly thinking about. That plays into our
unwitting accessory in our story, and how pee Wee pounced
(30:34):
on weaknesses of people use them to leverage things that
he needed within his authority and within the power circles
that he ruled. So that was very important Old and
how he used that behavior. I think you know to
that point that that is one of the primary explanations
(30:54):
for how UH person's criminal career like this could last
so long. You know, he's in and out of the system,
but he keeps slipping away. I do want to go
back to the conversation you and Matt were having, Jeff,
because I think I think it really raises an important
point for storytelling overall as well, which is maybe a
(31:18):
little bit abstract, but one thing that is always at
the front of my mind when we're exploring violent tales
things of this nature on on our show on Stuffing.
What you know is how to accurately depict a crime,
a criminal or a conspiracy without glorifying the villains or
exploiting the tragedies of the victims and your your work,
(31:42):
I think threads this line perfectly. You don't shy away
from Gascon's crimes, and you shouldn't, but you're also pointing
out these other things, these things that we've called contradictions,
and you're giving voice to the survivors, you know, the investigators,
people involved and more. How how do you, as a
creator navigate that line between like telling this story with
(32:06):
the accuracy and fullness that deserves, while also making space
for the human lives that have been impacted by this criminal.
We made a conscious effort early on my writing team,
which was Jim Roberts, Courtney to Freeze and Terry James,
and we knew that we wanted to shy away from
(32:30):
going too deep into the gory details and really be
able to focus on the victim's story. We felt it
was important that the audience get to know these families,
young girls, toddler's whoever might have been a victim, so
they understand the seriousness of these crimes and the lives
(32:54):
that Pee Wee was able to stuff out. And again,
we were conscious as we were writing and putting this
together trying to get the balance because some of these
are obviously very scary stories, and we wanted to pull
the audience in to the visual scenes that were happening,
but obviously not focused too much obviously on the act itself,
(33:18):
but on the result, which was the victims and the
lives that were ruined. Yeah, we'll put And I just
want to say personally, I appreciated that, and I found
it impressive. UM, And I think that's something that will
uh that that a lot of people who listen to
the show are going to recognize. So I guess that's
less of a question than a little bit of fan mail.
(33:39):
Sorry about that, Job's okay, we'll take somethingmail. We've actually
got some responses that have UM talked about that as well,
And you know, Nolan, I discuss this. You know, with
these true crime podcasts, there are topics and things that
the audience likes to hear. We wanted to make sure
that we covered those topics, but there was deep dives
(34:01):
obviously that we wanted to explore as well. Again, personally,
I loved the subculture which I thought the audience would like,
which was the trailer parks and the traveling carnivals. Then
you got on Jim side, who's doing these interviews. You've
got a literary professor across the table from a mass murderer.
And so again the balance between these personalities, how they
(34:23):
perceived life, how they perceived family, how they perceived relationships,
was fascinating to me. So I really wanted to get
into the gym and pee wee story, and I thought
the audience would really enjoy that because it's a different
angle two pee wee gascons that people had heard. I mean,
no one heard this story before, because again Jim hadn't
(34:44):
really publicly talked about these fifty plus interviews he had.
I thought the audience would love that. Your your audience
does love that. Jim and Anita, they're they're fantastic in
the show. I want to ask you about somebody who
would have said I think and maybe correct me if
I'm wrong here. Who would have said, Peewee Gaskins is
my friend A man named Walter Neely, Can you just
(35:09):
tell us a little bit about that character who Walter
is a tough one? So I will say you could
define Walter as Peewee's friend and right hand man. I
think for a stretch Walter would say that Peewee is
his best friend. And again I just wasn't there in
(35:30):
these relationships. But I feel like pee Wee knew who
Walter was. A slower guy, potentially a patsy, somebody who
he could possibly push some of these crimes and convictions
on at some point, A guy he knew that may
(35:53):
not be mentally tough enough if things came down to
the wire where he could rely on him. But he
had some almost like savant like abilities he did he did.
I mean, especially when you're talking about again, you know,
petty crimes, uh, stealing Dealon's cars exactly mechanically cars, and
(36:14):
it just a master of that. So I mean, again,
when we always talk about intelligence, I mean, you know
we're talking about book smarts and we're talking about street smarts.
I mean, Walter had some definite intelligence to him. He
just may have not been the smartest guy in the
room when you're talking about walking that fine line of life,
(36:35):
if that's a good way to put it. Some ways,
he reminds, I mean, this is maybe a little off,
but just immediately when his character was introduced, Um, he
reminds me of the Lenny character to the George character.
Perfect examblnol of Mison men right, perfect example because George
is sort of the swindler, hustler kind of guy, and
(36:56):
Lenny is sort of his sidekick who he's sort of
like bring, is along for the ride and sort of
like takes advantage of um and then obviously things go
very badly as as also it ends up being the
case in this story. Um. But I think that relationship
is fascinating because there is some love there, true real
love and camaraderie, but also it's a very functional relationship.
(37:19):
I agree. And it's such a great piece of literature
that you pointed out, And that is one question. Now
that you point that out and all that I wish
I would have asked Jim about that specific piece of
literature and the comparison between George and Lenny and Peewee
and Walter. I would be fascinating to hear of professor
(37:39):
weigh in on that, wouldn't it? Yeah? Absolutely, and will
pause for a word from our sponsors, then return with
more from Jeff Keating. Hey, we're back, Jeff. I want
to ask you about the uh, the women in in
(38:01):
Pee Wee's life. You you mentioned earlier that he had
five I think I think it was six wives in total.
But many times when he did have a spouse and
they were living together, the situation, the living situation would
be odd where there would be another person living with
them who was also a love interest, or he would
(38:22):
he would find a new love and get married and
the ex wife would still live in the same place
where he was living. There's just a lot of weird
situations going on with him and and the women in
his life. I just wonder if there's if you saw
any patterns there, if there's any stories you'd like to
tell us about that crazy situation. And here's something where
(38:44):
I think Peevie didn't maybe used the best uh his
wits or best sense about him. He's got all these
different relationships and women floating everywhere. Two wives, I mean,
I think, if I remember this correctly, he was married
to a few women at the same time illegally, like
he just goes down and gets another marriage license and
(39:05):
and and so he may call them X because maybe
they're living someone else. But I know there was several
occasions where he had one or two women living in
his house or trailer park with him at the same time.
But peewee, you gotta know there's gonna be a lot
of jowl in if you do that, there's gonna be
a lot of talk and gossip. So that was one
thing that I kind of giggled about if you're trying
(39:27):
to keep a close knit circle. And maybe again he
uses the power and the influence and the manipulation and
the fact that he's financially taking care of all these
people to control that situation. But where it's gonna get out, Yeah,
And and my understanding is that many of these women
were significantly younger than him, between ten twenty years sometimes
(39:48):
younger than him. Um so I can, I can only
I don't know. It's it's weird. Goes back to the
contradiction thing that but because that's a good point, Matt,
they were. And so again, when you've got that age gap,
the power to control and manipulate and especially maybe even
look up to him as a father figure. I can
see where that can he feels like he could control
(40:09):
that situation. But again, I just don't know if he
thought that clearly about all of this stuff, because that's
one thing, you know, again, when you have so many
different relationships going on, relationships are tough for even the
most normal of us. Uh So, anyway, it's funny. I
think it goes to the heavily impulsive, reactive nature of
(40:31):
his mind. One thing that always stands out is the
description of how he would have intrusive thoughts. That's what
a psychologists call him, but he doesn't call them that, right,
He calls them what is it, Jeff, bothersome? He says,
I have these bothersome thoughts. Yes, that's one of the
words I think he used. That's another question that comes
(40:53):
up with many of these cases. Clearly there's a capability
for forethought right. Clearly there's a capable ability for planning right,
implicating somebody else, making them an accomplice to avoid to
avoid drawing right, or the threat thereof. But in your
from your perspective, how much of his how many of
(41:14):
his crimes were like planned in advanced versus just those
reactions of of something misfiring in his mind. I feel
like Peewee's reaction to jawing and betrayal may not have
triggered these decks and crimes initially, Like my guess is
(41:36):
they didn't happen like an impulse reaction, but they triggered
something in Peewee's mind like this guy or this man
or this child is going to go down, And so
the plans started to churn in his mind. And I
feel at that point, Ben there was no coming back
from him, like I would you know, one of the
(41:57):
questions I would love to ask Peewee if he was
still alive, was hey, did anybody walk away from betraying
or drawing from you? You know? I mean, I think
there's a couple out there that maybe he just never
had a chance to get to. But if he was
ever able to walk back that impulsive thought that he
(42:18):
ultimately normally acted on, and it was probably a point
of pride for him not to do that, which makes
even more or maybe even that code as well been
like you know, no, this is part of the code,
and and and this has to happen now and maybe
you know same with other um criminal inter like you
have to set an example, right, Like if I let
(42:39):
this guy go and do this, what is everybody else
going to do to me? I think that's a common
theme and a lot of criminal organizations. I want to
give a quick example of the kinds of things that
an associate maybe john about, just so we we have
a picture here. Um, you speak to someone named Margaret
O'Shea who tells a story about one of like one
(43:01):
of the schemes basically that Pee had come up with.
So for a time, he would be working at a
tobacco plantation or or in a tobacco field, and he
and usually an associate would like clear all the tobacco
that was stored up in a farm that had been cultivated,
they cleared out of the or like take it away
(43:23):
basically to go sell it to somebody else, right correct,
And then they'd set the barn on fire. They would
make the money off of that crop, but then the
insurance company would pay the plantation owner or the tobacco
owner for that crop. So he basically doubled the money
and the value of that tobacco by stealing it and
(43:45):
and arson Um, so you know he's got an associate
working with him on that. So if that associate goes
John at a local let's same bar or something telling
people about it, then he's implicated in a serious crime.
So it's just I just want to give an example.
There are there any other examples of kind of the
schemes that he would get up to. Yeah, and let's
(44:06):
use an example in one of the murders, because I
think it said I won't go into the names of
the murder, so the audience gonna join. But there's one
murder that comes up where he basically because somebody has
asked him to do a hit or or at least
two quiet somebody is a better way to put it.
But it turns into a murder, and he brings these
(44:26):
people with him, makes them look at the dead body,
and basically says to him, you are now an accessory,
and if you go jaw into anybody else, you're going.
First of all, I'll kill you. Let me just start
with that. But even if for some reason you get
away from like clutches and I get you know, put down,
(44:49):
you're going down with me, which, by the way, ultimately happens.
So yeah, he's he's going to tie you up in
all of this, Matt, He's gonna tie you up. Man.
You ain't getting out Peewee's web. Oh good I would.
That's a very gritty sequel to Charlotte's Web. I think
(45:10):
the technically different thematic because Charlotte was so loving and
nice to Wilbur and pee Wee. Oh my goodness. No, no, no,
So right now, I just in full disclosure as we
are recording this interview, Uh, I don't know how the
story fully ends. We're not to the last episode yet,
(45:32):
so everybody you should know that. Uh, Jeff did not
give us give us too many spoilers. So we're listening
right along with you as as this show comes out.
And one of the questions that I really wanted to
ask you is what lessons do do we hope people
can take from this narrative? And what what can this
(45:56):
story tell us? How can because when I listened to this,
one of the things that struck me is this is
this is important, This is informative. People should know the
full story right of something that for many people may
have just been a headline right in their local news.
So what what do you think people can take from
(46:17):
this show? And how can knowing the full breadth of
this story, Uh, how can it help authorities? How can
it educate the public going forward? I think one of
Jim's children, and I just can't remember who said it
right now, spoke to that specifically. And Jim was talking
(46:37):
to a son about this, how there are so many people,
especially young people out in the world. You don't know
what's going on with them. It could be homeless, it
could be family life, it could be and he used
the specific words. I hope it comes to me outlayers.
Maybe the word he used, um, but it was even
(46:59):
something strong, longer than that. And we're so used again
specifically this past year with the pandemic being in our bubble.
Our kids that are close to us are loving wife
or husband, or aunts and uncles and grandmas and grandpas
that are close, and our friends that are connected to that.
But there are so many There's so much more going
(47:21):
on in the communities underneath what we see that the
authorities deal with. But again they've got their hands full
with so much going on as well. So I think
it's important for us to understand and maybe keep an
eye out for the outlayers, the people that need to
(47:41):
be brought into the world of good health and good education,
and we just don't know. There's so many lost lives.
I guess ben is a good way to put it.
There's so many lost lives. And I don't being lost
like they've been killed, but losses in they're walking out
in the world, no guides and no love and no
(48:02):
hands to hold them. And when that happens, you have
a much better chance to be killed or taken or
kidnapped or whatever the violent act. Maybe And at this point, uh,
you know, as we said before, we don't want to
spoil the story. It is a journey that you should
(48:25):
take for yourself. Don't take our word for it. Check
it out yourself. Pee Wee. Gaskins was not My Friend.
Created by Jeff Keating. Episodes are available now. We like
you can't wait to hear how it ends. Jeff. In
the meantime, first, thank you so much for coming on
(48:45):
the show today. But in the meantime, what other projects
are you working on, either as an individual or through
Doghouse Pictures. We we'd love to learn more about your work.
I've got two more podcasts I'm developing now. One is
a Cold Case and the other is an international murder,
which I'm so excited to explore. I've got a feature
(49:08):
film that I'm developing called follow Me, which is based
on a critically acclaim short story of the same name
by a wonderful author named Paul Grinder, And it's the
story about a female photographer who hires a private investigator
to follow her and take pictures. But when the gig raps,
the pictures don't stop, and they become more and more
(49:31):
invasive and intimate. And it's the relationship of diving into
kind of self explanation and this world's of photography and
really a visual medium that we're excited to dive into
that sounds gloriously creepy and I can't wait to see this.
(49:51):
I just want to add to Jeff it's it's it's
really been a pleasure working with you on this one
and also Fighting Night, and one commonality between those two,
I think both of us had a good time helping
develop the score uh to these podcasts with some amazing
local Atlanta UM Studio musicians, the Diamond Street Players, which
is sort of a collective UM. With Fight Night, we
(50:12):
went in a really cool kind of James Brown, kind
of gritty New York kind of funk sound, and for
this one, it really does mimic that dusty carnival kind
of like you know, fun house kind of vibe. UM
really really impressed with the way it turned out, and
it really is kind of a cool, uh cohesive piece
(50:33):
of this show. UM, So I just wanted to put
that out there too. If you're into creepy music and
the way it's incorporated into a podcast, it's not overplayed.
I think it's done really tastefully, and I think you
guys did an excellent job of incorporating all that stuff
that we worked with those guys on, So kudos for that,
and just to kind of wrap things up, guys to
the process, and we didn't get into the process much.
(50:54):
I know that wasn't part of the show, but the
process of podcasting is just fascinating. It's so much fun.
And so I had a fantastic team on this one. Again.
Nol's been my EP on both projects. Dan Bush, who
you spoke of, was my director on Fight Night. But
our writers and researchers who I mentioned earlier, Courtney to Freeze,
Jim Roberts and Terry James, our editor Jeremiah Prescott, I
(51:16):
mean it's really especially when you do these limited narratives
true crimes. Uh. The teams are so important. We've got
a great team that works with us at Doghouse Pictures,
so I just want to give thanks to them, and
uh again thanks to the audience. You guys have grabbed
onto this thing. We've got a bunch of listeners, some
great reviews, and I just really appreciate everybody that's out
(51:36):
there listening and has been following the story. Yeah, so
follow their q and listen and review now on Apple podcasts. Uh,
the I heart Radio Apple wherever you get your podcasts,
and to learn more for yourself, you can go to
Doghouse Pictures dot com uh to to get a bigger
breadth of Jeff's work, not just in the world of podcasts,
(51:58):
but well beyond. Thank you as always so much for
tuning in. Folks. Let us know your thoughts, which try
to make it easy to find us online. That's right,
you can find us on most of the internet locations.
Of note, we are on Facebook and Twitter and YouTube
as Conspiracy Stuff were Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram and
h While you're listening in reviewing jazz podcast, why not
(52:19):
give us a review as well, preferably on the Apple platform,
but any podcatcher that that lets your review where we're
here for it. That's right. You know. You can get
in touch with us over the phone one eight three
three std w y t K leave a message, let
us know what you'd like to call us, and please
let us know if we can use your message on air.
If you have too much to say, that's okay. You
(52:39):
can always contact us with our good old fashioned email address.
We are conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. Mhm.
(53:04):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Null, and they
called me Ben. We are joined as always with our
super producer Paul Mission Controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this the stuff they
don't want you to know. A quick disclaimer as we
get in today's show, fellow conspiracy realist, this episode contains
(00:45):
at times graphic descriptions of violent crime, and as such
may not be suitable for all listeners. We are not
diving into today's story alone. Instead, we are accompanied, very
fortunately accompanied by Jeff Keating of filmmaker and podcaster, founder
of Doghouse Pictures and the creator of numerous shows and
(01:06):
award winning documentaries as such as Living Is Winning as
well as his podcast Fight Night. Today, we're excited to
have Jeff here in digital person to tell us a
little bit more about his newest show, Pee Wee Gaskins
Was Not My Friend, which delves deep into the story
of South Carolina's most notorious mass murderer and someone many people,
(01:29):
surprisingly enough, have have not heard about. Welcome to the show, Jeff,
Thanks so much for coming, Jeff. What's up? Guys. Thank
you so much for having me. Really appreciate it. Jeff.
It's interesting you and I've worked together on a couple
of other projects in the past, including the show that
Ben mentioned, Fight Night, which is in and of itself,
a really cool show about this massive kind of like
(01:51):
underworld heist that takes place here in Atlanta where we're
all recording. You're in Atlanta native as well. Um, and
it takes place on the night of the big Muhammad
Ali comeback fight. Um. Yeah, what kind of a different
direction for Peewee Gaskins was not my friend? Um, it
really is another story of kind of the noir you know,
aspects of the South, but very much it's just a
(02:13):
story about a truly cold blooded psychopath, um that many
people have not heard of. How how would you describe
Peewee Gaskins two people that maybe aren't familiar with his
twisted legacy? Well, the name itself, because first of all,
I was like, you knowl And and Team. I didn't
(02:33):
know much about pee Weee myself would rarely even heard of.
I mean, I'm a true crime fanatic. I've covered this
obviously for you know, fifteen twenty years. As far as
just really enjoying stories, now, I tend to lean more
towards a mob true crime. That's my I guess if
you there's a sub genre within true crime, that's that's
my favorite. But I also love serial killers, you know,
(02:56):
the show Mine Hunters on Netflix and some other of
things like that. I really enjoyed that kind of stuff.
So Peewee. When I first heard about him, the name
obviously grabbed me. And then when I found out his
stature and how small he was, that was kind of
interesting to see. And once I looked into who this
(03:19):
guy was a little bit more and seeing again just
how small he was and how high pitched his voice was,
it was just a weird dichotomy between the violent crimes
that he committed and who he was now. Again, oftentimes,
you know, somebody could have a big chip on their
shoulder or could be pushed to the limit for certain things.
But whenever you have somebody so small with such a
(03:41):
high pitch voice, you you you usually don't put those
two things together. So when I started to understand his
crimes and who he was. That was very interesting. And
then I realized who this guy was, which was a
master manipulator, a trailer park kingpin of sorts, somebody that
had traveled with the carnival ring for years and the
(04:05):
people that traveled with him seemed to be a good
fit for what he was doing. Car thefts, you know,
petty thefts, things like that. So very interesting character and
just to stay in this realm before we even get
into the crimes of Donald Peewee Gaskins, I wanna ask
you about a story that was told in the latest
episode of the podcast, came out this past Monday. I
(04:26):
think it was called Loved Her to Death. And there's
a story in there where a former employer of Peewee's
tells a story about Peewee strength. And the story is
about something with a tire, like a truck tire. Do
you remember that? Can you tell us that story? Yeah?
I do, and and and it's hard to because the
(04:47):
employer did mention that, and so I think it had
something to do with like physically maybe getting the rim off. Now, again,
I'm not a big car guy, you know, one of
those some people could change tires. I might changed one before,
but I think it had something to do with like
getting the rim off of the tire itself using very
(05:07):
little tools or minimal tools, and the way that that
employer described it, the strength to do that is very,
very difficult, even with the tools themselves. So yes, I
agree with you, and I don't even know if we
put this story in as well. Matt, but he also
was known to like lift huge tons or things over
his head, so his strength was massive especially for him.
(05:29):
He also had experience with a great experience with automobiles
in general, right, he had familiarity. He also trained himself
to have a very powerful karate child, that's right, by
by basically using the metal end of his bed and
hitting it repeatedly, and I mean hundreds or thousands of
(05:51):
times to build up I guess that muscle or whatever
it was. I think we may even cover that story
more a little bit in this upcoming episode. But but yeah,
and then again, guys, you know you've got to imagine
you're in reform school and all these things. Early on,
you're probably beat up for your status, so you're you're
just building a toughness. A nail's tough exterior throughout your
(06:15):
whole life, you know, because of again your environment. You
know what you were um exposed to early on, the beatings,
all of that stuff. This guy was no joke. I
want to expand on the what you brought up, Matt,
the idea of anecdote here, Jeff. In the course of
the show, the listener encounters multiple people who have had
(06:40):
personal experience with Gaskins, and one thing that's fascinating before
we even get to the first episode, just overall, one
thing it was fascinating to me is that many of
these people come to some surprising agreements about the nature
of gaskins character. And one thing that really stood out was,
oddly enough, people would talk about how he was at
(07:02):
times apparently charming and charismatic, you know, and some folks
said he was, you know, a monster and human flesh,
and other folks said that they said, like he was
actually he could seem really friendly if you didn't know
who you were talking to, and that because that surprised me,
I wanted to ask you in the course of this story,
(07:23):
what surprised you. Were there any things that really really
surprised you about the way people talked about Gaskins or
his interactions. Well, here's what I do again. A lot
of people approach stories in different ways. I'm not an
investigative reporter, and there's a lot of people that do
true crime that have either that background or approach it
(07:45):
that way. I approach it more of a story that
I'm interested in. I'm a guide for the audience. Sometimes
I have some unknown things that come my way that
I just want to explore that I think the audience
will be interested in as well. And so with this
particular guy in this case, when I first heard about it,
and you, guys, I'm sure imagine this as well, it's like,
(08:06):
this is a serial killer or a mass murderer. How
how can you fall for this behavior whatever it is.
But then you hear over the past of many of
these famous serial killers or mass murders, how charming they are,
how they can ingratiate themselves into communities or families or
groups or whatever it is. And so I thought, I
(08:29):
put myself back in these guys shoes years ago, and
I was like, you know, there's no way you would
fall for that. But I was never in front of
this guy. I was never um faced with his with
his charm or manipulation or the power of this guy
staring at you from across the table, or you know,
making a deal with you, whatever it was. So you
think it may be one way, but you've never faced
(08:51):
this guy personally, and so as much as I tried
to imagine that, I really had to listen to all
these people that actually had faced and come in contact
with him and realize, Man, this guy was a snake charmer.
This guy was a manipulator. And and you may think
that you could um fight his uh you know, charming abilities,
(09:13):
but most oftentimes you could not. Can't out slither a snake, right,
This is something I thought a lot about with the
very first episode, where you do something fascinating this This
isn't a spoiler. We'll hear it, folks as soon as
you tune in. We don't start in a linear way, right,
We don't start at Gaskin's birth or his childhood or
(09:38):
his first crime, but with another story that takes place
while Gaskin is already incarcerated. What what inspired you to
approach it from this angle particularly, we needed to basically
have a set up for the show of one of
the main murders, which you see in that first one
is Rudolph Tyner and how it really connects to all
(10:02):
of the past murders and the unwitning accessory of that
last murder, and how he or she is going to
play a part in this entire podcast. So it was
unusual the way we did it. It's almost kind of
like a standalone story, but we felt to book in
this podcast with that particular crime and murder, and as
(10:24):
you'll see at the very end, how it all plays out.
It was the perfect way to tie it all in.
You know, it's interesting. I think it's probably best left
for folks to experience this themselves without going into the
details of this crime. But let's just suffice it to
say that, uh Gaskins, in a very very clever way,
(10:45):
orchestrates essentially a hit on a man that he doesn't
like from within prison. And that's a key, I think
to Gaskin's personality a man that he doesn't like. Gaskins
had a code. He he didn't He wasn't like other
serial killers who killed out of some perverse fetish or
some sort of like drive to just feed this hunger.
(11:05):
He was more like a mafiosa or something he'd be
bumped people off who he didn't feel met his standards
or in some way, you know, had wronged him, or
he wanted to get rid of a rival. Can you
tell us a little bit about, you know, his personal
code and what are some of the things that might
have put you or I on Peewee's hit list Before
(11:27):
I get to that. It's a good question. You tapped
on something. I'm a big fan of subcultures. So like
in Fight Night, the subculture was hustlers of the early
seventies in in Atlanta and then traveling you know, up
to New York and down to Miami, but really getting
into the world and the subculture of these hustlers. So
(11:47):
in this particular story, it's basically trailer park kingpins and
and traveling carnivals and the people that were in these
traveling carnivals and the type of work environment that they
were in the way they became family in an unusual way.
So so that was interesting for me to explore that.
(12:07):
And then Peewee's relationship to that. Noel was basically his
code was a couple of things. Betrayal was something that
he despised, I think the most out of anything one
of his codes are. Part of his codes was you
don't talk outside the circle, and that was I love
(12:28):
this phrase. I'm not sure if Jim are one of
our main characters or Pee Wee came up with this,
but it was called jaw in you don't you don't
go jawing to the police or to other members in
the community. And I assume that means you know, speak
out of turn. So so jowen was one of the
big things of his code. Another thing Noel that was
(12:51):
interesting was he was a protector supposedly of children and
younger people for certain things profanity, uh, certain behaviors around them.
Now again he goes on to kill some of these
younger people, and in fact a lot of the people
that ended up falling to his knife or gun were younger,
(13:14):
especially women. But for some reason there was a protector side.
So profanity was a big thing I heard. He rarely, ever,
if ever cussed uh and hated when people did it,
maybe in front of him, but specifically in front of children.
That was another part of his code. But the biggest
one knowal I think would be the betrayal meaning do
(13:34):
not cross him, and and specifically the jaw and don't
talk about me or my crimes or what we're doing
to anybody else. You know, it's interesting you say that, Jeff,
because we see some of those I guess a way
to vastly understated is we see some of those moral
dichotomies or contradictions in a lot of extremely disturbed people,
(14:00):
even to the point you've seen it in fiction like
uh Annie in Misery, right, who also hates cursing, and
Stephen King's Misery. This leads me to think, um, you know,
when we're talking a little bit about the mind of
someone who's a mass murder or serial killer. Another interesting
thing is that Gaskins, like other folks like Henry Lee
(14:24):
Lucas and so I, was prone to bouts of embellishments, exaggeration,
and investigators suspect in many case, in some cases outright lying.
Uh Before he was put to death by the State
of South Carolina back about fifty eight years old, he
had he made statements claiming, you know, I've committed many
(14:44):
more murders. I've committed more than a hundred murders, right,
How how many do how? It's a very strange I mean,
usually psychologists say that's a push for notoriety. But my
question for you is, when you were speaking with people
familiar with the case, how how much weight do investigators
put in his statements? There you've got, we've got one
(15:07):
person you speak with who says everybody who says. When
he was getting calls from people in as far away
as Australia to talk about UH, to talk about Gascon's crimes,
they kept trying to get him to like agree with
these higher numbers, and he refused to. So what's the truth?
Do we know or will we ever know? We don't know.
(15:28):
And that's what I find so fascinating. And I think
with any of these true crime cases, unless maybe you've
got a hundred witnesses that see exactly what's going on,
you have forensics evidence, you have witnesses, you have investigators,
but unless you're actually there for these murder themselves, we
just don't know. So I would say ben as a whole,
(15:51):
that most people thought it came in around eleven or
twelve murders, and that the legend of all those additional
murders was us that of sometimes people talking of reporters
covering stories, of people gossiping around a community, and as
you know, things grow from there. So I would say,
(16:13):
as a whole, the people that we talked to and
the investigators and attorneys and prosecutor stuff, felt it was
around a dozen and the rest became legend. Now again,
the legend can sometimes become so powerful and become so youthful,
even for a serial killer as well, But we don't know, Ben,
(16:34):
and I always find that a good place to rest
because it allows us to examine that the evidence ourselves
and make a decision based on what we hear. You know,
what do we think, you know, based on all this
stuff and these stories and this transcripts and stuff, where
do we think the truth lies? You know? If the
(16:54):
other forgive my my ignorance here, Jeff, but I I
am imagined that some of those legendary things, or maybe
even things that actually happened that just can't be proven,
occurred when he was traveling with you know, the carnival
or you know something, some things occurred that we just
no one will ever know about. And I just wondered
(17:16):
if you thought maybe that was even a possibility. I
think that's very fair to say, Matt, because again, if
you're talking about somebody that can do this once and
has been accused and convicted of these crimes and then
ultimately executed, which we know he was we don't know
what he was doing all the time or things that
(17:37):
could have been left. And you know, if you're having
these bodies buried in burial fields in one place, what's
going on somewhere else? And we don't know if he
gets angry at one guy that somebody didn't cover years ago.
So I would assume guys, wouldn't you imagine that there's
cases like that all over the country in the world.
We're just gonna take a little break here a word
(17:59):
from our sponsor, but will be right back, and we're back. Jeffy.
We talked to a good bit already about his kind
of outsized, uh mythical persona that really was this kind
of disconnect from his actual stature and like the like
(18:19):
he said, it's kind of like high pitched voice, which
I think probably caused a lot of people to underestimate him. Um,
and he was also a master manipulator, and that he
was even able to kind of get the cops off
his trail literally just like by kind of gives throwing
them this like diversion, like there's a there's a part
where he's like working under a truck or something and
the cops looking for him in connection to him a disappearance,
(18:41):
and he just says, no, Peewee Gascon's here, basically exactly. Yeah. Literally,
it's just like the most Basically, he just had this confidence.
I think that was infectious, and I think that's what
led to this sort of cult of personality you see
with this weird ragtag band of characters that he sort
of had under his way. He almost is this kind
of weird cult leader figure in some ways. Um. But
(19:04):
your friend uh and also um, someone who is a
very important part of the story. Dr Jim Batty had
a really interesting relationship with Peewee he both academically and personally. Um.
And he really gives an incredible perspective on a lot
of these stories and the podcast. Can you speak a
little bit about how you got connected up with Dr
(19:25):
Batty and what their relationship was. Yes, So, a colleague
of mine and good friend, Courtney Dufreeze knew the Batty
family and suggested, based on the fact that he knew Jim,
Dr Batty had done all these interviews with Pee Wee,
maybe a great podcast and a great way to explore
(19:45):
a different angle of somebody that actually sat across the
table from him for Dred interviews, and so I was like, well,
this would be, first of all, just a fascinating guy
to talk to. So when I was able to finally
meet Jim and his wife, Anita, who's in the podcast
as well, I really was interested and wanted to explore
(20:09):
the story of two different men, both who grew up
very close to each other geographically. I think it was
eighty miles apart, Both who were very close in age.
I think they were two to three years apart. Both
who had worked in some of the same places, even
though at different times, a Campbell suit factory that they
came to know once those interviews started, and how they
(20:34):
ended up with such different lives again, jim family manned
uh literary professor, ordained minister, and then pee Wee Gaskins
a mass murderer family as well. But you know, six
different wives if I'm not mistaken, not sure how many kids,
but he had a few. And it drew me to
(20:56):
one of the things that I'm always interested in exploring,
which is nature or versus nurture. So Jim has this beautiful,
lovely upbringing. Pee Wee supposedly had a very rough, tough childhood,
maybe some abuse, some sexual abuse that happened to him.
So Jim wanted to explore this as well as did I.
(21:19):
If if Peewee's upbringing is different, is if he's loved
as a child, if he you know, is not sent
to these tough reform school early on, if he's given
a full education, does he wind up different? And and
I always I'm fascinated and exploring that question. I'm so
glad you see that, Jeff, because this leads us to
(21:41):
another commonality that experts perceive in mass murderers, uh, serial
criminal sexual assaulters in the like, which is that, uh
many many serial murders seem to have these horrific childhoods. Right,
and we know that Gaskin's criminal career started at a
(22:05):
very young age with a trouble trio they called themselves,
I think somewhere in like eleven to thirteen years old. Uh.
And I have a two part question, but but it's
a tough question to really get our minds around. I
don't know where will fall on the on the nature
versus nurture debate, but it felt like some of the
(22:27):
people that you encounter in the course of your journey
have come to a conclusion that some folks are simply
born and evil. Did you run into when you're talking
with people? Did anybody bring up this nature versus nurture argument?
And if so, how did they approach it? How did
they grapple with this? Well? I feel Jim definitely felt
(22:48):
there was a what's the right word. I feel like
Jim thought that there was a direct core correlation between
the two and he felt pretty strongly that if p
we had a loving family or different upbringing, that his
life would have been different. I feel some of the
reporters and some of the I don't know if we
(23:12):
did any psychologist, but I feel there was some other
people that felt the same way Jim did. There may
have been a couple of people that leaned towards born evil,
but I really think after they looked at the whole life,
that it was just this was an evil man and
(23:32):
they couldn't put their fingers on exactly where that all began.
When you go back to your first part of the question,
been my thought is from the fifteen twenty thirty years
of exploring these stories, I can't find one serial killer
or murderer did didn't have a bad upbringing. I'm still
(23:52):
trying to find that one. In fact, I was just
laughing about this the other day. The one movie I
think it was with Nicolas Cage and it was called
eight Millimeter, was a thing about that. And ultimately, at
the end, even though he was in this dark, crazy world,
the antagonist of the movie The Killer says, I had
a loving and and I didn't believe it. It ruined
(24:13):
the movie for me because I was like, No, every
study we've explored has pointed to a traumatic past. It
felt like the script writer said, this is the twist,
you know, And I think it felt that way. I
agree with you if you felt that way, because those
that commonality is so it occurs at such a distressingly
(24:36):
frequent level, you know. I I also am trying to
I've been trying to find someone who had like a
happy home life quote unquote whatever that means. And I
think you're on the money there, Jeff. And listen, trauma
is a very serious thing, guy. And whether it be war,
whether it be abuse as a child, um, you know, psychological,
it could be physical or mental, but especially early on
(25:00):
and then again I think most scientists or doctors will
agree with this. When you have something traumatic, it could
affect your life from there on out. Either you have
to deal with it and you have to recover from it,
or it can affect your behavior moving forward. And so
if you're really having you know, beatings or mental abuse
or whatever it may be early on, I can see
(25:21):
how that affects the line to these stories of these
mass murderers and serial killers. Well, you know. And again,
I keep going back to the contradictions of Peewee's life
because there are a lot of stories where he seems
to be he seems to do something out of just
the kindness of his heart for someone. In this latest episode,
(25:43):
there's a story about an elderly woman that comes to
him with a problem with her transmission, and like, it's
incredible what Pee Wee ends up doing? Could you just
tell that? Because I think that's really like speaking to
when we're talking about good versus bad, versus nature and nurture.
Like the fact that this guy who has done these
horrible things we know of already and this elderly woman
(26:05):
says I need help with my transmission, what does he do?
He ends up stealing a transmission from a car that
is just like hers, and then putting that transmission into
her car, fixing it for this lovely senior citizen. I
think he barely charged her anything, you know, maybe a
few bucks. But that's that's such a great example because
(26:26):
and and no, you were talking about this earlier about
moral code. This moral code is so gray. It's like
he does something illegal to do something good. And I
think they're the balance of pee Wee. And many of
his actions showed that throughout his life. So he felt, hey,
(26:47):
I'm gonna do what I need to to help this lady,
even though it's gonna be you know, in illegal activity
or taking from somebody else. And pee Wee was notorious
for deeds and behaviors like that. Oh you know. And
there's just one last story, guys, and I'll stop talking
about this. There's Um, a young woman who moves in
(27:09):
with him and his wife at the time. I can't
remember exactly which wife it was. I'm so sorry I
can't recall that right now, Jeff. But um a young
woman who moves in with a very tiny child that's
super sick, Like the child is extremely sick. But pee
Wee ends up using his funds and his time and
effort to nurse that child like back to health. Um
(27:32):
and it's not his child, it's just some it's another
woman's child. And to me that is so strange and
and and it does make me wonder about if it's
him doing something getting all psychologists here, doing something for
another child that maybe wasn't done for him, or like
a kindness shown to another child that wasn't done for him.
(27:55):
But he's also a child killer. So anyway, my brain
is exploding thinking about all of that. I don't even
know I have a question here for you. Well, it's hard.
It's hard to wrap your head around all of those stories.
So that's a good example. There's other ones that will
let the audience here within the podcast where he literally
you know, cares for babies or toddler's or you know,
(28:17):
young children, but a lot of these people or young
babies or children become his victims. So it's really hard
to wrap your head around all of this. And again
we're not in this world of you know, underneath this
trailer part Kingpin and this guy that was with people
(28:38):
working in the traveling carnivals who I hear have transient
lives to begin with, and maybe not have the connection
to family except for the people working in the carnivals themselves.
So it's hard to understand this sometimes, Matt, it really is.
It is, But I also think there's a lot of parallels.
And one of my first questions I mentioned, I really
(28:59):
see a connect action between him and like the mafia,
like the code of Omerta. You know, like your your
family until the moment you break that code and then
you're dead to me, literally and and figuratively. Um And
I people probably stick of hearing about it, but you know,
The Sopranos is one of my favorite shows, and I
think Tony Soprano is a really interesting antihero because he
(29:22):
nurtures so many people while also on the other side,
ruining so many lives. Um And he you know, he
will be this advocate for people until they crossed him
in the wrong way, and then he won't think twice
because he feels justified in doing it because they broke
the code. Um and And to me, that's that's what
pee he's doing. Um. He's obviously a terrible person, but
(29:46):
also has this you know, nurturing side. He's a very
complex character. I think you know, and he needs to
retain the power and authority and also avoid prison. So
there's many things that pee Wee was constantly doing within
these relationships that were important to him. I've got to
maintain my power. If somebody knows about a crime that
(30:09):
I've committed, I am going to implicate them in that
crime so that they become an accessory. He was brilliant
at that. Okay, fine, you're gonna jaw about me, I'm
gonna take you down with me. And so that was
something that was constantly thinking about. That plays into our
unwitting accessory in our story, and how pee Wee pounced
(30:34):
on weaknesses of people use them to leverage things that
he needed within his authority and within the power circles
that he ruled. So that was very important Old and
how he used that behavior. I think you know to
that point that that is one of the primary explanations
(30:54):
for how UH person's criminal career like this could last
so long. You know, he's in and out of the system,
but he keeps slipping away. I do want to go
back to the conversation you and Matt were having, Jeff,
because I think I think it really raises an important
point for storytelling overall as well, which is maybe a
(31:18):
little bit abstract, but one thing that is always at
the front of my mind when we're exploring violent tales
things of this nature on on our show on Stuffing.
What you know is how to accurately depict a crime,
a criminal or a conspiracy without glorifying the villains or
exploiting the tragedies of the victims and your your work,
(31:42):
I think threads this line perfectly. You don't shy away
from Gascon's crimes, and you shouldn't, but you're also pointing
out these other things, these things that we've called contradictions,
and you're giving voice to the survivors, you know, the investigators,
people involved and more. How how do you, as a
creator navigate that line between like telling this story with
(32:06):
the accuracy and fullness that deserves, while also making space
for the human lives that have been impacted by this criminal.
We made a conscious effort early on my writing team,
which was Jim Roberts, Courtney to Freeze and Terry James,
and we knew that we wanted to shy away from
(32:30):
going too deep into the gory details and really be
able to focus on the victim's story. We felt it
was important that the audience get to know these families,
young girls, toddler's whoever might have been a victim, so
they understand the seriousness of these crimes and the lives
(32:54):
that Pee Wee was able to stuff out. And again,
we were conscious as we were writing and putting this
together trying to get the balance because some of these
are obviously very scary stories, and we wanted to pull
the audience in to the visual scenes that were happening,
but obviously not focused too much obviously on the act itself,
(33:18):
but on the result, which was the victims and the
lives that were ruined. Yeah, we'll put And I just
want to say personally, I appreciated that, and I found
it impressive. UM, And I think that's something that will
uh that that a lot of people who listen to
the show are going to recognize. So I guess that's
less of a question than a little bit of fan mail.
(33:39):
Sorry about that, Job's okay, we'll take somethingmail. We've actually
got some responses that have UM talked about that as well,
And you know, Nolan, I discuss this. You know, with
these true crime podcasts, there are topics and things that
the audience likes to hear. We wanted to make sure
that we covered those topics, but there was deep dives
(34:01):
obviously that we wanted to explore as well. Again, personally,
I loved the subculture which I thought the audience would like,
which was the trailer parks and the traveling carnivals. Then
you got on Jim side, who's doing these interviews. You've
got a literary professor across the table from a mass murderer.
And so again the balance between these personalities, how they
(34:23):
perceived life, how they perceived family, how they perceived relationships,
was fascinating to me. So I really wanted to get
into the gym and pee wee story, and I thought
the audience would really enjoy that because it's a different
angle two pee wee gascons that people had heard. I mean,
no one heard this story before, because again Jim hadn't
(34:44):
really publicly talked about these fifty plus interviews he had.
I thought the audience would love that. Your your audience
does love that. Jim and Anita, they're they're fantastic in
the show. I want to ask you about somebody who
would have said I think and maybe correct me if
I'm wrong here. Who would have said, Peewee Gaskins is
my friend A man named Walter Neely, Can you just
(35:09):
tell us a little bit about that character who Walter
is a tough one? So I will say you could
define Walter as Peewee's friend and right hand man. I
think for a stretch Walter would say that Peewee is
his best friend. And again I just wasn't there in
(35:30):
these relationships. But I feel like pee Wee knew who
Walter was. A slower guy, potentially a patsy, somebody who
he could possibly push some of these crimes and convictions
on at some point, A guy he knew that may
(35:53):
not be mentally tough enough if things came down to
the wire where he could rely on him. But he
had some almost like savant like abilities he did he did.
I mean, especially when you're talking about again, you know,
petty crimes, uh, stealing Dealon's cars exactly mechanically cars, and
(36:14):
it just a master of that. So I mean, again,
when we always talk about intelligence, I mean, you know
we're talking about book smarts and we're talking about street smarts.
I mean, Walter had some definite intelligence to him. He
just may have not been the smartest guy in the
room when you're talking about walking that fine line of life,
(36:35):
if that's a good way to put it. Some ways,
he reminds, I mean, this is maybe a little off,
but just immediately when his character was introduced, Um, he
reminds me of the Lenny character to the George character.
Perfect examblnol of Mison men right, perfect example because George
is sort of the swindler, hustler kind of guy, and
(36:56):
Lenny is sort of his sidekick who he's sort of
like bring, is along for the ride and sort of
like takes advantage of um and then obviously things go
very badly as as also it ends up being the
case in this story. Um. But I think that relationship
is fascinating because there is some love there, true real
love and camaraderie, but also it's a very functional relationship.
(37:19):
I agree. And it's such a great piece of literature
that you pointed out, And that is one question. Now
that you point that out and all that I wish
I would have asked Jim about that specific piece of
literature and the comparison between George and Lenny and Peewee
and Walter. I would be fascinating to hear of professor
(37:39):
weigh in on that, wouldn't it? Yeah? Absolutely, and will
pause for a word from our sponsors, then return with
more from Jeff Keating. Hey, we're back, Jeff. I want
to ask you about the uh, the women in in
(38:01):
Pee Wee's life. You you mentioned earlier that he had
five I think I think it was six wives in total.
But many times when he did have a spouse and
they were living together, the situation, the living situation would
be odd where there would be another person living with
them who was also a love interest, or he would
(38:22):
he would find a new love and get married and
the ex wife would still live in the same place
where he was living. There's just a lot of weird
situations going on with him and and the women in
his life. I just wonder if there's if you saw
any patterns there, if there's any stories you'd like to
tell us about that crazy situation. And here's something where
(38:44):
I think Peevie didn't maybe used the best uh his
wits or best sense about him. He's got all these
different relationships and women floating everywhere. Two wives, I mean,
I think, if I remember this correctly, he was married
to a few women at the same time illegally, like
he just goes down and gets another marriage license and
(39:05):
and and so he may call them X because maybe
they're living someone else. But I know there was several
occasions where he had one or two women living in
his house or trailer park with him at the same time.
But peewee, you gotta know there's gonna be a lot
of jowl in if you do that, there's gonna be
a lot of talk and gossip. So that was one
thing that I kind of giggled about if you're trying
(39:27):
to keep a close knit circle. And maybe again he
uses the power and the influence and the manipulation and
the fact that he's financially taking care of all these
people to control that situation. But where it's gonna get out, Yeah,
And and my understanding is that many of these women
were significantly younger than him, between ten twenty years sometimes
(39:48):
younger than him. Um so I can, I can only
I don't know. It's it's weird. Goes back to the
contradiction thing that but because that's a good point, Matt,
they were. And so again, when you've got that age gap,
the power to control and manipulate and especially maybe even
look up to him as a father figure. I can
see where that can he feels like he could control
(40:09):
that situation. But again, I just don't know if he
thought that clearly about all of this stuff, because that's
one thing, you know, again, when you have so many
different relationships going on, relationships are tough for even the
most normal of us. Uh So, anyway, it's funny. I
think it goes to the heavily impulsive, reactive nature of
(40:31):
his mind. One thing that always stands out is the
description of how he would have intrusive thoughts. That's what
a psychologists call him, but he doesn't call them that, right,
He calls them what is it, Jeff, bothersome? He says,
I have these bothersome thoughts. Yes, that's one of the
words I think he used. That's another question that comes
(40:53):
up with many of these cases. Clearly there's a capability
for forethought right. Clearly there's a capable ability for planning right,
implicating somebody else, making them an accomplice to avoid to
avoid drawing right, or the threat thereof. But in your
from your perspective, how much of his how many of
(41:14):
his crimes were like planned in advanced versus just those
reactions of of something misfiring in his mind. I feel
like Peewee's reaction to jawing and betrayal may not have
triggered these decks and crimes initially, Like my guess is
(41:36):
they didn't happen like an impulse reaction, but they triggered
something in Peewee's mind like this guy or this man
or this child is going to go down, And so
the plans started to churn in his mind. And I
feel at that point, Ben there was no coming back
from him, like I would you know, one of the
(41:57):
questions I would love to ask Peewee if he was
still alive, was hey, did anybody walk away from betraying
or drawing from you? You know? I mean, I think
there's a couple out there that maybe he just never
had a chance to get to. But if he was
ever able to walk back that impulsive thought that he
(42:18):
ultimately normally acted on, and it was probably a point
of pride for him not to do that, which makes
even more or maybe even that code as well been
like you know, no, this is part of the code,
and and and this has to happen now and maybe
you know same with other um criminal inter like you
have to set an example, right, Like if I let
(42:39):
this guy go and do this, what is everybody else
going to do to me? I think that's a common
theme and a lot of criminal organizations. I want to
give a quick example of the kinds of things that
an associate maybe john about, just so we we have
a picture here. Um, you speak to someone named Margaret
O'Shea who tells a story about one of like one
(43:01):
of the schemes basically that Pee had come up with.
So for a time, he would be working at a
tobacco plantation or or in a tobacco field, and he
and usually an associate would like clear all the tobacco
that was stored up in a farm that had been cultivated,
they cleared out of the or like take it away
(43:23):
basically to go sell it to somebody else, right correct,
And then they'd set the barn on fire. They would
make the money off of that crop, but then the
insurance company would pay the plantation owner or the tobacco
owner for that crop. So he basically doubled the money
and the value of that tobacco by stealing it and
(43:45):
and arson Um, so you know he's got an associate
working with him on that. So if that associate goes
John at a local let's same bar or something telling
people about it, then he's implicated in a serious crime.
So it's just I just want to give an example.
There are there any other examples of kind of the
schemes that he would get up to. Yeah, and let's
(44:06):
use an example in one of the murders, because I
think it said I won't go into the names of
the murder, so the audience gonna join. But there's one
murder that comes up where he basically because somebody has
asked him to do a hit or or at least
two quiet somebody is a better way to put it.
But it turns into a murder, and he brings these
(44:26):
people with him, makes them look at the dead body,
and basically says to him, you are now an accessory,
and if you go jaw into anybody else, you're going.
First of all, I'll kill you. Let me just start
with that. But even if for some reason you get
away from like clutches and I get you know, put down,
(44:49):
you're going down with me, which, by the way, ultimately happens.
So yeah, he's he's going to tie you up in
all of this, Matt, He's gonna tie you up. Man.
You ain't getting out Peewee's web. Oh good I would.
That's a very gritty sequel to Charlotte's Web. I think
(45:10):
the technically different thematic because Charlotte was so loving and
nice to Wilbur and pee Wee. Oh my goodness. No, no, no,
So right now, I just in full disclosure as we
are recording this interview, Uh, I don't know how the
story fully ends. We're not to the last episode yet,
(45:32):
so everybody you should know that. Uh, Jeff did not
give us give us too many spoilers. So we're listening
right along with you as as this show comes out.
And one of the questions that I really wanted to
ask you is what lessons do do we hope people
can take from this narrative? And what what can this
(45:56):
story tell us? How can because when I listened to this,
one of the things that struck me is this is
this is important, This is informative. People should know the
full story right of something that for many people may
have just been a headline right in their local news.
So what what do you think people can take from
(46:17):
this show? And how can knowing the full breadth of
this story, Uh, how can it help authorities? How can
it educate the public going forward? I think one of
Jim's children, and I just can't remember who said it
right now, spoke to that specifically. And Jim was talking
(46:37):
to a son about this, how there are so many people,
especially young people out in the world. You don't know
what's going on with them. It could be homeless, it
could be family life, it could be and he used
the specific words. I hope it comes to me outlayers.
Maybe the word he used, um, but it was even
(46:59):
something strong, longer than that. And we're so used again
specifically this past year with the pandemic being in our bubble.
Our kids that are close to us are loving wife
or husband, or aunts and uncles and grandmas and grandpas
that are close, and our friends that are connected to that.
But there are so many There's so much more going
(47:21):
on in the communities underneath what we see that the
authorities deal with. But again they've got their hands full
with so much going on as well. So I think
it's important for us to understand and maybe keep an
eye out for the outlayers, the people that need to
(47:41):
be brought into the world of good health and good education,
and we just don't know. There's so many lost lives.
I guess ben is a good way to put it.
There's so many lost lives. And I don't being lost
like they've been killed, but losses in they're walking out
in the world, no guides and no love and no
(48:02):
hands to hold them. And when that happens, you have
a much better chance to be killed or taken or
kidnapped or whatever the violent act. Maybe And at this point, uh,
you know, as we said before, we don't want to
spoil the story. It is a journey that you should
(48:25):
take for yourself. Don't take our word for it. Check
it out yourself. Pee Wee. Gaskins was not My Friend.
Created by Jeff Keating. Episodes are available now. We like
you can't wait to hear how it ends. Jeff. In
the meantime, first, thank you so much for coming on
(48:45):
the show today. But in the meantime, what other projects
are you working on, either as an individual or through
Doghouse Pictures. We we'd love to learn more about your work.
I've got two more podcasts I'm developing now. One is
a Cold Case and the other is an international murder,
which I'm so excited to explore. I've got a feature
(49:08):
film that I'm developing called follow Me, which is based
on a critically acclaim short story of the same name
by a wonderful author named Paul Grinder, And it's the
story about a female photographer who hires a private investigator
to follow her and take pictures. But when the gig raps,
the pictures don't stop, and they become more and more
(49:31):
invasive and intimate. And it's the relationship of diving into
kind of self explanation and this world's of photography and
really a visual medium that we're excited to dive into
that sounds gloriously creepy and I can't wait to see this.
(49:51):
I just want to add to Jeff it's it's it's
really been a pleasure working with you on this one
and also Fighting Night, and one commonality between those two,
I think both of us had a good time helping
develop the score uh to these podcasts with some amazing
local Atlanta UM Studio musicians, the Diamond Street Players, which
is sort of a collective UM. With Fight Night, we
(50:12):
went in a really cool kind of James Brown, kind
of gritty New York kind of funk sound, and for
this one, it really does mimic that dusty carnival kind
of like you know, fun house kind of vibe. UM
really really impressed with the way it turned out, and
it really is kind of a cool, uh cohesive piece
(50:33):
of this show. UM, So I just wanted to put
that out there too. If you're into creepy music and
the way it's incorporated into a podcast, it's not overplayed.
I think it's done really tastefully, and I think you
guys did an excellent job of incorporating all that stuff
that we worked with those guys on, So kudos for that,
and just to kind of wrap things up, guys to
the process, and we didn't get into the process much.
(50:54):
I know that wasn't part of the show, but the
process of podcasting is just fascinating. It's so much fun.
And so I had a fantastic team on this one. Again.
Nol's been my EP on both projects. Dan Bush, who
you spoke of, was my director on Fight Night. But
our writers and researchers who I mentioned earlier, Courtney to Freeze,
Jim Roberts and Terry James, our editor Jeremiah Prescott, I
(51:16):
mean it's really especially when you do these limited narratives
true crimes. Uh. The teams are so important. We've got
a great team that works with us at Doghouse Pictures,
so I just want to give thanks to them, and
uh again thanks to the audience. You guys have grabbed
onto this thing. We've got a bunch of listeners, some
great reviews, and I just really appreciate everybody that's out
(51:36):
there listening and has been following the story. Yeah, so
follow their q and listen and review now on Apple podcasts. Uh,
the I heart Radio Apple wherever you get your podcasts,
and to learn more for yourself, you can go to
Doghouse Pictures dot com uh to to get a bigger
breadth of Jeff's work, not just in the world of podcasts,
(51:58):
but well beyond. Thank you as always so much for
tuning in. Folks. Let us know your thoughts, which try
to make it easy to find us online. That's right,
you can find us on most of the internet locations.
Of note, we are on Facebook and Twitter and YouTube
as Conspiracy Stuff were Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram and
h While you're listening in reviewing jazz podcast, why not
(52:19):
give us a review as well, preferably on the Apple platform,
but any podcatcher that that lets your review where we're
here for it. That's right. You know. You can get
in touch with us over the phone one eight three
three std w y t K leave a message, let
us know what you'd like to call us, and please
let us know if we can use your message on air.
If you have too much to say, that's okay. You
(52:39):
can always contact us with our good old fashioned email address.
We are conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. Mhm.
(53:04):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
Show Links
RSSStoreAboutLive ShowsPopular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.