The Hidden Tomb of Genghis Khan

Genghis Khan was one of the world's most successful conquerors, and his empire left an indelible mark across Eurasia. Yet upon his death his body was spirited away to an unmarked grave, and everyone associated with the burial -- so far as we know -- was put to death in an effort to keep the location secret. So what exactly happened to Genghis Khan? Could it be possible that someone actually knows where it is, and has somehow kept the location hidden for almost 800 years?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello,

(00:24):
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is known. They called me Ben. We are joined
with our super producer, Paul the Condecant. But most importantly,
you are you. You are here and that makes this
stuff they don't want you to know. Let's start off
on a high note today. Sure, let's do ray me

(00:45):
fossil Latti, do our way to to death. Yeah, let's
h let's do that. So death, as it's often said,
is one of the main U nineteen experiences of humanity.
Eddie right. No matter how different you are, how wealthy, poor, respected,
or ignored you are, one day you will die. Are

(01:07):
you a carbon based life form? Death awights? Indeed, And
one of the biggest differences between us human beings listening
to this and almost all other living things, including machine
consciousnesses that may be listening to this in the future,
is that we remember and venerate our dead, our loved ones,

(01:27):
or even our hated ones who have passed. Civilizations of
old channel this tremendous amount of energy in preparing for
their respective versions of the afterlife, and then created practices
that often continue in one form or another in the
modern day, like, for instance, I don't want to put
anybody on the spot, but it's safe to assume we

(01:49):
have all at one point thought about how we want
our death to be handled by the people who survive
after us. Yeah, generally in this country, it's do you
want to be put into the ground your entire body
in its form as it exists, Perhaps it's modified, maybe
most of the insides have been taken out. Maybe you
get burned, which is an ancient practice of burning about it,

(02:11):
the ancient ritual of the sick burn yep goes back
farther than you think it does. And on a side note,
I want to give a shout out to a fantastic
documentary that Paul actually made and I helped out a
little bit on it, which was about burial and death
specifically called burial. Is it available right now? It is

(02:34):
not available, so you can't ever watch it ever. No, never,
you will never be able to watch it. So it's
without spoiling it. It is fantastic and allowing the way
we ran into some some very strange things about the
legality of burial here in the US. But while the

(02:54):
specific funeral rites and rituals of some civilizations may be
lost to time, we do have something equally amazing, some
people would say even more amazing, and that is physical
historical evidence of ancient people and their heroes, many of
whom are called villains. Today we are talking about tombs,

(03:16):
big tombs, not not just a little grave plot or
a place where you put ashes a tomb. Yeah, and
I think we figured out that the process or the
practice of tombs goes back to maslus was the idea
of it or innate you know, giant tomb that's decorative
like a mausoleum. That's where that name cameogy. Yeah. Pretty interesting. Yeah,

(03:38):
and it sounds morbid sure for us to to open
a show with this. Oh, by the way, conspiracy At
how stuff works dot com, we'd love to hear your
opinions of the best way to handle a dead body.
Are you undead or a spirit? How were you buried?
How did that go? Uh? And on some level it

(03:59):
is morbid. We have to think about it. Some of
the most meaningful buildings in human history are actually tombs.
The Pyramids of Egypt, the taj Mahal in India, even
Westminster Abbey in the UK. And today we're not just
talking about the tombs you can visit, and we're not
just talking about tourist tips for visiting a famous grave site. No,

(04:20):
we are exploring a genuine and successful cover up a
mystery spanning almost one thousand years that remains officially unsolved today.
Today we are searching for the lost tomb of Jengis Khan,
the very opposite of the tune that I was talking
about the mausoleum, which is an above ground tomb that

(04:40):
was a later development. We're talking about tombs that they
don't want you to find, not big old decorative suckers. Yes,
and specifically this fellow named Jengis Khan, who I hate
to admit, did call Genghis Khan quite a bit of
my life. Yeah, I think it's it's very common for
us here in the West, because you know, these are

(05:04):
two very different languages and we're talking about a vast
span of time. So even if you if you spoke Um,
an adjacent language of the time, the mispronunciation would be
very easy to run into. And that's what Bill and
Ted called him so and and you see that ge
just that yeah, after yeah, give me a gu And

(05:25):
also English is such a pirate language. It just crabs
things arbitrarily and steals from other dictionaries. So let's let's
look at Jengis Khan from from a biographical perspective. Let's
start at level one to learn some more about him.
His real name was not Jengis Khan. He was born

(05:47):
Timujin in Mongolia around one thousand, one hundred and sixty
two uh CE, right correct. And he was named oddly enough,
after a Tatar chieftain that his father had captured, so
it was a point of pride to name him after that.
He was a member of a tribe called the Vorgigen.

(06:07):
And by the way, we are going to most likely
mispronounce everything but Jengis Khan here, and he Timujin was
a descendant of Kabbald Khan, who briefly united the Mongols
against the Chin dynasty of northern China in the early
eleven hundreds. Ben Khan isn't in the last name, right,

(06:28):
it's a title or like refers to being like a
king or according to the Secret History of the Mongols
uh this fellow Timojin was born holding a blood clot
in his hand, and that might sound weird today, but
back then it was an auspicious sign in Mongol folklore,

(06:49):
indicating that he was destined to become not just a leader,
but a great leader. And he did not have an
easy life. He was nine years old when his father
passed away. His father was poisoned after his father had
taken him to live with the family of his future wife,
who is named Borte. Uh This marriage was super arranged,

(07:11):
as you can tell, right, and marrying for romantic notions
is also a relatively recent thing in the span of
human history. Uh. He. So he comes back. His dad
dies when he's nine. He comes back to his clan
and he says, look, my father's dad, I am the leader,
and they laugh at him. You're nine. Uh. So he

(07:33):
and his half brothers and survivors of that line the
family are relegated to essentially a refugee status until they
go on a hunt and he gets in a fight
with his half brother over how to split the spoils
of the hunt, and he kills his half brother, a
guy named Becter. This makes him the head of the
family officially, there's no one to say ha ha ha. Right, yeah, officially,

(07:58):
he's presumably just like in a bit of blind rage
right there. I don't know, I'm trying to picture this scenario. Well,
I mean it was after right, so after a hunt,
you just exerted yourself a whole bunch of the whole
group of them. You get back and now you're disputing
like who gets what how much? And yeah, I can
imagine it was. I guess that's sort of a micro
cosmic version of what war is and conquering is. So

(08:18):
he just sort of took that notion and spread it out,
blew it up. And to be clear, the hierarchy here
is a little bit different. Unless you have a very
brutal family today, or unless your friendships are very brutal
things that I would not call friendships, you're probably going
to be a little more fair with people and not

(08:40):
as hierarchical. But but it's a tradition plays a huge
role in his early life when we see it come
out later in the wash. So let's fast forward. He's
about twenty years old and the next terrible thing happens.
There is a raid by a group called the Tight
Tight chee Oats and they used to be allies of

(09:03):
his family and tribe, but they betrayed them and when
they captured him, they made him a slave. He eventually
escapes and he starts to form a fighting unit with
his surviving brothers and some other aligned clans people. And
this is when he begins to form his first army.
He's twenty years old. We're glossing over some of his

(09:26):
biographical details and focusing kind of in his military rise
to power, but there's a huge spiritual aspect to this
as well. Search jingis Khan biography on your favorite search thing.
So he begins the slowestcent of power. He builds this
gigantic force of more than twenty thousand people. He's just
getting started. So he says, you know, tradition has never

(09:50):
been kind to me and made my life very terrible
up to this point. So I'm going to destroy some
of these traditional divisions among various tribes, and I want
all the people identifying as Mongols to be under my rule.
So he starts out with these absolutely monstrous techniques and

(10:13):
tactics to revenge his father's death. First thing, he orders
the killing of every male of the Tatar tribe who
is more than three ft tall more than about three ft,
so people with growth problems would be the only male
adults to survive and children. The three rule was a
hard and fast thing. Or you think this is just
like the record shows it's a I think it translates

(10:37):
to the the spoke or the axis of two willed
cart interesting. He also found his former slavers, the Tatius,
and had all of their chiefs spoiled alive. By twelve
oh six, he had defeated another tribe called the Naymans,
and he officially effectively gained control of central and eastern

(10:59):
Mongol Alia. And this is when the rest of the
Mongols started saying, I don't this guy's kind of wild
because he was fighting wars differently than anybody else had
done before. I don't want we don't have to spend
too much time on this, except for the really cool stuff.
He had a ton of spies. He stole every technology
or tactic that his enemies used that he thought was good.

(11:22):
His army grew to over eighty thousand soldiers, and one
of the questions you would ask is, how how the
heck do you communicate to eight thousand people? There's no radio,
and that's what set him apart, right, I mean he
was not only brutal, but crafty type. Yeah, yeah, he
They would use drums like other musical instruments, smoke signals

(11:44):
as ways to communicate pretty pretty good stuff flags even
I think, and um oh yeah, the fire was a
big deal, so the smoke signals, but then also a
torch itself, where you're like waving a torch in certain
ways or lighting certain number of torches. And I think
that terrain helped them to you because there was so
much flat land and the steps you could see pretty
easily clearly what the doth RACKI and Game of Thrones

(12:08):
are based on. Yeah, and this horde, the riders and
all that stuff. And George R. R. Martin has been
I think pretty forthcoming about that. I mean he use
can't deny it. Yeah, if he tried to act like no, no, no,
this is my my thing, they see it's like, I think, really,
you guys are now looking at the the connates through

(12:28):
the lens of Game of Thrones and song advice of fire.
So yeah, the soldiers did. We're on horseback and the
depiction and fiction got that right. Depiction and fiction of
drop it beat, right, But they were also uniformed, much
more so than the rack of fiction. Each each soldier

(12:51):
would be riding a horse often, but they all had
a bow, a shield, a dagger, a lasso. And this
was cool. They had saddle bags that were waterproof so
they could carry supplies. But if they were in a
if they were trying to afford a very deeper, dangerous
or rough river, they could empty the supplies, leave it
with their support system and make air bags to float.

(13:13):
You're kidding me, Like what like they had a little
nipple they'd blow into and because their waterproof and they
can hold air. Yeah, it's it's like that old trick
we learned in boy Scouts about how to survive by
turning your genes into a flotation device. Sure, like the
way when you're when you go in the water with
your jeans they fill up and puff up in the front. This,

(13:35):
I mean obviously incredibly innovative stuff here, the idea of
a lasso. Everything they had had a very specific purpose, right,
And that's that's pretty interesting. And Ben you mentioned um
off Mike that they had support staff, I guess bringing
up the rear and making sure they had the supply
chain that was opened up. I mean smart, smart maneuvering. Yeah,

(13:56):
the shamans who served as spiritual and medical aids, foods applies.
This was in by the way, this is the more
peaceful time. And after after watching Timojin ruined these first
three tribes, the rest started to fall in line. They
sued for peace, and that's when he got the title,
which is not his name, the title we know him
by today Jengis Khan, which means universal ruler, the Cohn

(14:20):
of cons the king of kings, like the coal of calls,
like cal Drogo. So it goes beyond what we think
of as a general or an admiral or something. Because
the leading shaman additionally declared that Jengis Khan was the
representative of the supreme god of the Mongols on earth,

(14:42):
Monkey Coco Tengri, the eternal blue Sky, and this meant
that as far as any practicing Mongol was concerned, it
was this guy's destiny to rule the world. They were
also very religiously tolerant. They thought religion was a personal matter,
super forward facing for the time, but with one exception.

(15:02):
To defy the Great Khan was to defy the will
of God with all the consequences that came along. And
there's a nice little recreation vignette and one of the
documentaries are gonna talk about later where um Timagen goes
to the top of a very important mountain that we'll
get too later and asks thet the sky god like
what he should do. And that's supposedly where he got
the inspiration to go forth and conquer, and that mountain

(15:27):
plays a huge role to right. So twelve oh seven
he attacks a kingdom called and in twelve eleven he
takes the Shin dynasty in northern China, or he tries
to launches a bloody campaign the last twenty years. In
the West, he initially resorts to honest diplomacy. Give it
a try, Yeah, let's give it a shot. He sends

(15:49):
a diplomatic mission to an outfit called the choiis m dynasty,
And think of think of this as like modern Persia,
Afghanistan and Turkistan. And this is where we see trade
becoming the most one of the most significant historical results
of the Empire, because they're uniting the East and the West,
which normally did not have regular trades. Requires a little

(16:12):
more diplomacy rather than brute force. We need to cooperate
to make things better for each other rather than kill
each other. Right, we have to be able to know
that if we send silk somewhere leagues and leagues away,
they will return with our emissaries alive and with the
money we wanted to trade. But yeah, this diplomatic mission

(16:32):
did not turn out so great. Yeah, yeah, because, as
it turns out, establishing yourself through very well known public
acts of bloody revenge makes people hesitant to trust you.
So on the way his diplomatic caravan was attacked by
forces under the control of the governor of oh Trar.

(16:52):
The con was Piste. He demanded that the shaw of
the cars him give him the govern or. The shaw
not only said no, but he sent something in substitution.
He sent Jengis Khan, the head of one of the
diplomats he had sent. Now, this is outside of the
scope of this is an episode. But I did not
realize they were calling them shaws that far back. I

(17:14):
didn't know the history of that term went back to
this period. That that term has evolved through a lot
of different periods, and this this guy's title was that
but it was his title so much so that it
was his name, you know. And so he gets the

(17:36):
head of this diplomat. And this is what historians referred
to as you know, we should just say it the
technical term. It's when she hits the fan, so the
con is never the biggest fan of playing nice launches
an overwhelming attack that sweeps through Central Asia all the
way into Europe, changing the course of history. In twelve nineteen,

(17:58):
he sends two hundred thousands soldiers against this dynasty, the
kuaraz M dynasty, and the people in the way, the
people who are not immediately slaughtered or sexually assaulted to
the point of death, were driven in front of the
enemy to serve as human shields until they starved. And
you might be thinking to yourself, I haven't heard of
this karaz M dynasty. Yeah, there's a reason. I mean,

(18:19):
they were wiped from the record more, I mean from history,
you know. Yeah, in twelve twenty one, they were erased
from the face of the earth. No living thing was
spared on the way to that ratio. The livestock was
slaughtered along with all the men, women and children. The
army piled their victims skulls in these large pyramids shaped amounts.

(18:40):
And then in twelve one, yes, the con erased the
dynasty from the face of the planet, and after that
the empire entered into what passed for peace at the time.
There were a lot of progressive laws about crime, religion, trade,
there were even environmental considerations. That's pretty amazing, Yeah, but
it doesn't change the fact that everything that all of

(19:03):
the citizens of that let's call it, I don't know
civilization who was all built on blood, like every blood
bones rape that it's like blood money conquise. I mean,
you can't you know the people that were taken. I mean,
I don't know the people that weren't killed, that were
assimilated into this culture and then had their families taken

(19:23):
from them. From them couldn't have been super stoked on
the rulers here, right, And this governing structure is set
up so that the conquered people are required to offer tribute,
and a lot of times that's going to be in
terms of agricultural resources, because this empire is hungry, right,
And the empire will also expect that vassal states or

(19:46):
communities supply tribute in terms of troops. When the Tanga
dynasty of U refuses to send troops for the cons
big war against that other dynasty. He rides out, sacks
their capital, puts down the rebellion, and just to make
sure people get the message, he executes the entire extended

(20:06):
ruling family and he ends their bloodline as well. So
that's two dynasties wiped from the face of the earth.
And soon after that, the Con himself dies. Well, damn,
that's anti climactic, goblished so much, and then it's just like,
I'm out Alexander the Great died at thirty two, thinking

(20:29):
he was a failure thinking about all those twenty seven
year old rock gods. When you put it like that,
I guess it makes sense. But yeah, he's he's he's done.
So how how does how does he die? Man? Well,
experts disagree on exactly how the con expired, and that's
one of the reasons we're making this whole episode. Uh,

(20:50):
the the details surrounding his death where he's laid You're
a lot of questions here. There's a whole idea that
perhaps he fell off a horse because he was an
old he was an aging man, he was getting older,
and he died because of you know, maybe a wound
he had received in battle that wasn't fully healed or something. Um,
there's an idea that perhaps he couldn't breathe very well

(21:13):
as he's getting a little bit older. Um, held, was
he supposedly when he died, Well, he died in twelve
twenty seven, and uh, since he was born way back
in the day in eleven sixty two, that makes him, Uh,
that would be about sixty five. Yeah, I mean not
too shabby for for this day. Sixty five years old.

(21:35):
That's a great age. Um. One after the Beatles song,
which is nice, and um, he didn't get to he
didn't get to hear that song. Sadly well, you know,
assuming that he died. But because you'll hear some people say, hey,
what if he just never died, but just on that
island with Tupac And there's a there's a whole other thing.

(21:57):
The idea. It's a I don't know, God, it's not
a joke. It's kind of a joke, but it's not
the whole shot in the knee thing. You got took
an arrow to the knee, and no, Nger is a
used to be an adventurer, but he can't anymore. I
thought you would like that one. I had to. I
had to put that in there. What is it that
comes from Marco Polo? Marco Polo had written about the

(22:18):
rise and fall of the Khan and he heard that
just like the city guarden Skyram, the con was shot
in the knee and then he got infected. Do you
remember that? He says it like it's like every character
says that same. Sorry you used to be I took
an arrow to the knee. Yeah, and uh, it's we

(22:40):
don't know if the folks made that game meant for
that to be such a reference, but we're going to
pretend it is. And please join along with this. Well,
it's certainly better than just falling off your horse when
you're meant to be this badass like leader Rider guy.
You know, that would be pretty embarrassing, especially with the
cultural importance based on horsemanship. So, following his tribal customs

(23:03):
the parts of the tradition that he did adhere too,
he was buried without markers, somewhere allegedly near the place
of his birth. According to legends, the funeral escort carried
him to this burial site, killed anyone they saw along
the way, and anything they encountered. The slaves who built

(23:28):
the site were killed. The soldiers who killed them were
killed by a different troop without you know, I don't
think those that first wave his soldiers knew effectively creating,
uh this centuries version of an air gap security systems
like that scene in the Batman movie with the Joker,
the heath Heath Ledger Joker, that heist they pull off

(23:51):
where everybody kills everybody else until there's nobody left. But
this movie, i've seen it, I cannot remember that part says,
I think it's in the trailer. Uh So, the empire
goes on. Khan has bestowed supreme leadership to his son Odai,
who controls most of Eastern Asia, including China. He's divided

(24:15):
the rest of the empire amongst his other children. One
gets control over Central Asia northern Iran. The youngest gets
a small piece of land near Mongolia. His other son,
who had died before him, had already taken control of
modern day Russia with a son named Batu. They created
the legendary thing called the Golden Horde, and that is

(24:37):
more of I think that's probably the closest thing George R. R.
Martin's going for because those forces meet European forces and tactics,
and even in Game of Thrones there's the Golden Company,
which is another kind of horde that's more for higher up. Yeah,
there are mercenary crew and this empire eventually reaches all

(24:59):
the way to the gates of Vienna in Austria until
this is how fragile history is. Until the word of
the cons death reaches Batu, he's summoned back to Mongolia.
He turns east and we can only imagine that most
of the people and all points west of Vienna went.

(25:20):
So that seems like this doesn't really make a dumb move,
Like if you're already like ready to go, you've made
it this far. That really shows the ancestor, you know,
the respect for ancestors in this culture, like they're just
stopping what we're doing. We're done. We've got to go
back and take care of dads. And the empire soldiered

(25:41):
on for a while, but you know, fame and power
messes with people, and the cons descendence eventually broke off
into smaller regions called kanates that did cooperate but later
became competitive. The trade system, most importantly began to break
down and the rulers began to be seen by the
common folk as increasingly assimilated with the people they were

(26:04):
supposed to be ruling. So like they would say, the
Mongolians who are ruling part of China are no longer
really Mongolian. They're soft. So they kind of died with
a whimper and not a bang, No big final blood war,
just a little bit, just kind of faded into the background.
Kind of there was one factor that was bloody and

(26:24):
it was not human. Humans just helped it along. At
the same time these empires begin to fall and assimilate,
the Black Plague strikes. It destabilizes the world. Trade networks
that were already suffering are falling into mass of disrepair
as everybody's trying to figure out why everyone around them
is dying. About of China's population falls to the plague,

(26:48):
as well as anywhere from five to fifty percent of
the population in Europe. So yeah, it's a it's it's
a grizzly rise a grizzly fall. But regardless of whether
you think he's one of the world's best military commanders,
a global hero, or an infamous villain, when thing's for

(27:10):
sure Jengis Khan changed history. So what happened to him? Well,
that's the thing nobody really knows, except for those people
that got, according to legend, assassinated immediately after they buried him.
It's so hardcore. So even today, right now, the search
continues officially outside of you know, maybe the secret keepers.

(27:35):
Maybe there is a group of small group of secret keepers,
and we'll learn about that right after a quick word
from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. According to
oral folklore and legend, the Empire went to great links
to erase the location and the cons tomb from the world.

(27:56):
As you mentioned, the funeral escort killed people they countered
on the way to and from the site, which is
a little complicated because the people who knew the way
there got killed when they were there. And then the
other people who killed the slaves and the soldiers who
killed the slaves. Uh, they probably never saw the two,

(28:16):
at least according to the story. So again, well, well,
well before this in b C, we had Greek cultures
that were venerating their dead with these ostentatious monuments that
were there for everyone to worship and see. Totally different
style of burial here, they're killing their countrymen to keep

(28:38):
them from spreading the word of where this leader would
have been buried, and for what reason. We'll we'll get
to that. Yeah. Then for another cultural reference, killing people
who construct a tomb of a leader is unfortunately not uncommon.
There have been other cases in ancient cultures where slaves
were killed not to keep a secret, but as a

(29:00):
sacrifice to serve the leader in the afterlife. I was
gonna ask, do you think they were like surprised or
are they going into this knowing they probably weren't going
to come back? That part has lost to history and
stuff too. It's you know, it's easy for us to say, well,
I wouldn't do that if I knew what was going
to happen, you know, with the benefit of looking back
from But the fact of the matter is we don't

(29:21):
have documentation that tells us anything about the understanding or
the motivation of the slaves or the soldiers, because there's
very little documentation about Cohn at all. Right, there's the
Secret History of the Mongols, which is often considered not
a hundred percent accurate, and it leaves a lot of

(29:42):
things out. But it's you know, you've this far back
in history. There's a constant search for sources, right, you
gotta put it together based on artifacts and just kind
of like finding stuff and putting the pieces together and
saying this is probably how it went down. Yeah, and
based on what the people who, what kind of frame
of reference or cultural perspective the earlier investigators were coming from, Like,

(30:05):
we're still we got to be clear. This stuff we're
talking about here is the realm of legend. The tomb
was allegedly hidden, and folklore gives us conflicting methods of camouflage,
and one story, an entire river was diverted over the
CON's grave so that no one could find it. Ever,
in another version, they had horses trample across the ground

(30:28):
and then they planted trees on the site so that
you couldn't find any clear traces of somebody digging. And
then another story says that perma frost itself erased all
traces of the site. Uh, there's another guy. In sixteen
sixty two, a work called the Ordini top Chi that

(30:50):
argues Genghis Khan's coffin was empty when it arrived to Mongolia.
It's very it's a it's a conspiracy theory that has
echoes in the mom earn day. Uh. And then there's
another Atland that from six o four that says only
Genghis Khan's shirt tent and his boots were buried. Shirt

(31:13):
shoes tent no service in the afterlife. Yeah, but essentially
after he died, people began searching for this too. One
legend said that was found as soon as thirty years later.
This is the weirdest one I found was that was
found thirty years later because a camel was buried with
the con a young camel, and that the camel's mother

(31:37):
found the grave and started weeping over the death of
its child. It sounds like a fairy tale. It sounds
very Pixar Andy Disney movie esque. Probably not true, but
it is possible that the burial site was somewhere around
wild camel routes, and then the tears seeped into the
soil and the camel was resurrected by the power of love.

(31:59):
As long as that wilder and watching nearby clap their hands.
That's probably not true, but uh, we do have some
prove that it's not true. Prove that I'm saying the
camel thing is so real. Yeah, I hope it is, man,
I hope you're right. I hope it is. I would

(32:20):
love to hang out so deep in Disney movies. Now,
that's gotta be real. What are the good Disney movies? Coco?
Coco is pretty good, which one my son calls it
The Boy with the Bones. Yeah, oh I remember that. Yeah,
it's a solid What do you see? Incredibles too? Yet,
there's a short before it that will gut you, my friend.
It's called Bow. It's about a dumpling. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, beautiful,

(32:43):
it's beautiful. So the thing about Disney films and Pixar
films as well, is that, oh, I just realized, pretty
soon every film is going to be a Disney film.
They're buying, they're buying it all. They might buy us
they already please buy us Disney, please, but I will.
I will not say no to tickets or a mascot costume,

(33:05):
that's for sure. But the the thing about these films,
these Disney films, is that they are proven historical resources.
We can look at them, we can see what happened
in them. It's not just oral folklore. And we have
some documentation from this time. Oddly enough, via Marco Polo.

(33:26):
He wrote about his travels, and he wrote about what
he saw as the attitudes of Mongolian people themselves, uh
and the speculation over the side of the grave. According
to him, people Mongolia did not know where the tomb
was as early as the late thirteenth centuries, so even
just a few decades after the death, they were saying,
which we don't know where he is. And he was like, Marco, oh,

(33:56):
we are po lowering the bar on the puns today.
Marco did have a guest, though, and in the Travels
of Marco Polo, he writes that it has been an
invariable custom that all the grand cons and chiefs of
the race of jenis Con should be carried for an
internment to a certain lofty mountain named Alte and in

(34:19):
whatever place they may happen to die, although it should
be at the distance of a hundred days journey, they
are nevertheless conveyed thither. Oh, Marco Polo, what a And
I do believe the illustrious Cohn may have dad from
an arrow to the knee. That's right, I like the

(34:40):
jewel at this guy sip. You know, also, Matt, that
that accident totally I mean convinced you're about to go. Yeah,
I only do one voice, so it's great. But the
precision Matt it's doing it drips like butter. It's the
true voice of history, Matt Julip Frederick taking a big

(35:02):
old journey across Mongolian understand over the mountain all time.
Oh man, I want to make a video game and
just have you narrate all the characters. I'm down with that. Hey,
developers out there, please let me vote your game and battle.
Ben'll do it, and Nol do it, and Paul do it. No,
it'll just be you, and it'll just be a game
full of old men sauntering around the Mongolian waste, including

(35:24):
the love interests. Yes, it it'll be the West World game.
And I'll just play the old guy. Okay, okay, Now
everybody knows there's an old person in a TV show.
Just let me play Delos's grandfather who now, uh yeah,
but people are probably programmed where they haven't gotten to

(35:47):
the level of consciousness that they can't hear that spoiler.
You guys are killing me. So in seven, rumors surfaced
that the Soviet government had found and stolen a banner
from this Buddhist monastery this remote Buddhist monastery, and the
banner had clues leading you to the grave site. Nothing

(36:08):
came of that. Who let those guys have that? No
one they took it. They probably started the rumor themselves.
They're a little braggadocious over there in the Soviet Union.
And I'm gonna be honest, it might be seven when
we did the Great Game podcast about Shambalah. This is
probably associated with that. The searches continued and they had

(36:30):
that same pattern that we see in so many of
these sorts of investigations, are all these tantalizing clues. Somebody
finds a button, they find a gold coin, they find
like an ancient bow, but they find no concrete proof
leading to the grave. There's a very sad story here.
An amateur archaeologist named Maury Kravitz dedicated decades of his

(36:54):
life to searching for this tomb, and he was basing
a lot of his research and his excavations, which were
quite expensive, on the writings of a fifteenth century French jesuit.
He was convinced, based on this guy's records, that the
site would be near the cons quote favorite place, the

(37:16):
Confluence Ceo in f l U E n c E
of the Curlin and quote Bruccie rivers with a place
named Burkon called Doon over his right shoulder. Kravitz couldn't
find a river named Brucie, which most people would think
to mean that he's just confused the name or that

(37:37):
it doesn't exist. Bruccie man. And isn't the Caldoon the
the the Birken Caldoon the mountain in question right from
reaching his hands up to the sky god, so everybody
believes that's got to be somehow related to this mountain.
But he did find something called a toponym, uh Barroon

(38:01):
Brooch or West Brooch. And a toponym is a place
name that is derived from a topographical feature that it's
really cool, and that's a new one for me. It's
t O P O N Y M and go yeah uh.
And this area was about a hundred kilometers east of

(38:23):
Birkelan called dunes. Not that far. Cravitz died without ever
finishing or failing. His search for the two makes you
never quit, but yeah, yeah, exactly, And it makes you
think about all those people who have spent their life
looking for something like the Holy Grail, like putting all
of their life's work into something like that, or what

(38:44):
what are what are some of these other legendary things? Yeah,
things that don't want to be found. But thankfully, Morey's
young grandson, Lenny went on to become an incredible rock star,
a rock Yeah, sports leather pants like no one's ever
done in the history of had wonderful children, And if

(39:07):
you listen to most of his albums, you'll see that
the lyrics are are actually about the search for the
tomb of Genghis the whole thing that you're gonna go
my way, that's about Genghis Khan. None of this is true.
This is true. The one fault is he wrote it

(39:29):
about Genghis Khan rather than Jengis Khan. And that's what's
kind of failed pronunciations. It's better when we catch ourselves though,
Isn't it agreed? This is lean into it. There are
other possible locations. Marco Polo has that admittedly vague but

(39:49):
amazingly performed by Matt mentioned of Altai. Other theories include
something from Luan dynasty, which the one dynasty is mongoled sended.
You know, we're talking earlier about ruling populations that were
thought to have assimilated to egregiously these This is one example.

(40:10):
In the Yuan dynasty, believe that all Mongol Kans were
buried in the area of Genghis Khan's tomb, a site
known as qin Yan Valley. But there's no in all
their records talking about this valley. There's no specific mention
of where that tomb is. They just talk around it
as if they know where it is, so like the

(40:31):
valley beyond. Yeah, but they was it exclusive to to
Jengis him being the big the big Kahuna, that they
would hide his tomb or would would they like would
they have hit all of their burials like a valley
of the cons Yeah, there's well. Again, the tradition is
not to mark them. Yeah, that's right where you were born,
to write, were like where you originate. There's another bit

(40:52):
of folklore that says he's buried at the peak of
or on a peak rather in the Kenti mountains, and
that's Burkehon call doon Uh. He had hidden from enemies
on that mountain as a young man. That's where he
made that spiritual pledge right to return there and death.
So for centuries it seemed like this was going to

(41:13):
be a hopeless fools Errand it's a huge country. It's
not very populated. It's almost as if the Hue humans
sprinkled there are just to give us a sense of
scale about how vast and empty it is. It's a
very unforgiving terrain. It's a very unforgiving terrain. But there
was there, there was something that seemed set to change

(41:37):
the expedition's game that arrived very recently, and that is
the emergence of cutting edge technology, which will dive into
after a word from our sponsors, and we're back and
entered Dr Albert Lynn. He is the let's say, he's

(42:01):
the most well known example of somebody who's using technology
in the hunt for this lost tumb And you you're
a huge fan of this guy, right, Matt, I am.
I've only I've only spent let's say it's probably a
forty eight minutes with him roughly that I've spent with
him on screen hanging out. No, no, no, no. I

(42:22):
I love the work that he's doing and it seems
very admirable. And going back to his roots, backstory about
led him to this ultimate journey using grad school and
he went back to Mongolia, bought a horse and ended
up like staying with these nomadic people and um kind
of hearing about this potential for a hidden sight that

(42:45):
we're talking about, and it intrigued him a lot, obviously. Yeah,
well it's it's really awesome. It's something we've discussed on
this show a lot before, using lidar and other new
technologies to be able to find hidden tombs, hidden archaeology
that exists there in the world. And he's actually doing it,
and he convinced in this case National Geographic to go

(43:06):
out and you know, fund his research and fund his journeys.
Pretty awesome. Yeah. Lightar is stands for light detection and ranging.
It's a remote sensing method. You've probably heard when we
talked about law civilizations how this technology has been used.
And luckily for Lynn and Code, this has progressed by
leaps and bounds. Nor weren't you mentioning that drone that

(43:28):
used light ar. Yeah, he's got a really like early.
When I say early, I think this is in what came. Yeah,
he started his search I think started in O eight. Yeah,
so you know at that time, drone technology was it's
like the military thing we always talk about where it's
um they hold back stuff or they only have like

(43:50):
the good stuff for the big boys in the military,
and then it eventually trickles down to what I like
to call pro sumer technology, where it's going to be
quite expensive to get a good one, and they had one.
They had. I'm not sure exactly, Matt. You may have
mentioned what the model might have been of the strone.
Oh no, I don't know the act, but it was
definitely a really tight drone equipped with some kind of

(44:10):
light ar technology that they could use to do topographical
like aerial maps. I'm pretty sure Jonathan, our own Jonathan
Strickland went to see yes that your were a version
of ce S at the time, and uh talked about
those first prosumer drones. Yeah, I think you were correct.
They also used satellite imagery. They had some assistance from

(44:33):
some satellite companies, and with this and the lighter, which
they describe as non invasive ground based imaging, they were
able to identify and study dozens and dozens of archaeological sites,
including some ancient burial mounds, none of which so far
have turned out to be the con We should point

(44:54):
out to that it's a big deal, big important part
of this as that the Mongolian government they won't let
anybody dig. There's no there's no dig policy. So this
was his solution to like, let's do a virtual dig. Yeah,
and they also so very quickly they run into this problem.
We're gonna let's talk a little in depth about this
because this is the most well known recent search and

(45:18):
the one that has the highest probability of success. Honestly,
he did it very smartly. Yeah. So he also crowdsourced.
Their team said, look, we're getting way too many images,
We're getting way too much stuff to go through. If
you are interested in this, you do not have to
be PhD level archaeologist. We want to use you as
what Dr Lynn called a human computation network. So they

(45:41):
got thousands of quote citizen archaeologists, that's what they called them,
to review more than eighty five thousand images from this
that they had gotten through this company called Digital Globe,
that's their satellite partner. And these were images of that
forbidden zone that's the name of it. Uh, that's where

(46:03):
you cannot dig, and parts of that area used to
be entirely restricted to royal families among colia. So it's
a big deal for people to even be able to
go out there, And he published a paper about this
called Combining go O I one Satellite Remote Sensing u
a V Aerial Imaging and Geophysical Surveys and Anomaly Detection

(46:25):
applied to Archaeology. Sexy. It's really the kicker, right, is
these these anomalies because when you look at the aerial footage,
there's stuff down there that's clearly man made. He says,
if it's like squared off looking, it's these little nipple
looking things, little bounds kind of that's quote unquote like odd.
But he said the sheer amount of data was just

(46:48):
too too, too, too much for a team of of
however many he had access to to mess with and
just to mind through it all. Hence the crowdsourcing. So
he basically got a bunch of people to do a
bunch of grunt work for him for free. Well, the
images were roughly one pixel to one meter. That's amazing,
So like you're literally looking at all of the land space.
That's a lot of computer and hands. Yeah, but then

(47:12):
what did the aggregate look like when all the results
were in all these clicks, all these people taken on
these deals, what do they get back. That made it interesting.
They are a distinct lack of a two of Genghis
cons Tom, but they but they saw clusters of things
kind of pinpoint, so they were able to yeah, map
out civilizations places where it may be more likely for

(47:35):
the tomb to be located, especially if the folks from
Nuan dynasty were correct and that there was some sort
of knowledge of the tombs location and that the cons
were secretly buried. There was a thing about it being
betwixt two rivers or something, and go back to and
the proximity to the mountain of course, right, that's right.

(47:55):
I think they found what he redescribed as an iron
age tomb um, but it has just been picked clean
by grave robbers, he said, looking for barrow heads or something. Yeah,
but you're right, Ben, They you know, all this cool
tech didn't amount to a whole hillo hillo con one
other Hillican of one of the other really cool things

(48:18):
they had where the lidar actually back in backpack style
or something. So they're walking around across these areas that
have been you know, clustered together, with a bunch of
different people seeing them, and they're walking just with a
lighter on their back. I want to do that, but
I want that for you. I feel like you've earned that.
That's kind of rolling cart version of it too. And

(48:39):
I saw in the video that I was look confused
about what it was. But they definitely had a lot
of tech and that was a big part of the
of the of the show was how much gear they had,
you know, And we can't downplay what they found because
they found a lot of amazing, astonishing things. They just
found those as a result of searching for the thing
that they have yet to find, and that's because there

(49:01):
are and this this is maybe the strangest part of
today's story. There are some massive problems with the search.
Nold you and I like we briefly mentioned the terrain
his first off spoiler alert. Mongolia is the definition of remote.
Most of the country outside of the capital Lambatore does
not have roads, rooted cities. There's still many communities living

(49:28):
in the neeumatic tradition on the steps. And then just
for comparison, I found this fascinating and this really set
it in stone in my mind. Mongolia is more than
seven times the size of Great Britain and it has
about two percent the amount of roads that Great Britain has.

(49:48):
It's so funny that recently took a flight over the
Great Salt Flats and Salt Lake City and that was
the closest kind of terrain that I could kind of
compare to this. It's not desert. It it's very like
you look down, it's like there's nobody down there. Yeah,
there are no roads, and it's like I felt like
I was flying over the moon and it was. It's beautiful,

(50:09):
but it's also like very alien. I have. I have
a feeling there's a similar quality over over there in Mongolia.
There was one yeah, when I drove through the Salt
Flats on me completely non sketchy thing, and it was
one of the few times in my life I thought, Man,
if the car breaks down, that's it. It's over for me.

(50:31):
They make a good point to in the documentary how
they take older trucks and stuff because they're easier to
fix out in the field, and there would be like,
now you're not going to find a Volkswagen shop, you know.
And even with those trucks that have like four by
four capability and stuff, they have to send some people
on horseback different sites, right stuff. So I always see

(50:54):
what you're saying. Because they couldn't get right up onto
it with the vehicle, they had to like send out parties. Yeah,
it's totally true. What we need to do is have
teams that go in behind the search, teams that can
set up supply lines. Oh yeah, there we go, right.
I think that's how we conquered this whole thing. So
that was the smartest little detail of CON's brigade that
that's gone. I'm like, wow, that is They really had

(51:16):
to figure it out. There's also some speculation that climate
change played a role in the expansion of the empire,
because they did they were running out of resources agriculturally
to feed people. Sure, and I always I hadn't considered that,
and maybe that played a role in the later environmental
laws that he instituted. There was another video that Auto

(51:38):
played after the documentary were talking about. It was an
Australian fellow who tried to follow the path that the
Mongols would have taken, and he kept ringing another problem
where there wasn't enough grass for the horses to graze on,
so that the horse was would get skinny over time,
and you could picture that happening for real, like back
in the day. If it's like the resources aren't there,

(52:00):
you can't feed your horses, you can't feed your horses,
you can't feel only going on with this nomadic lifestyle.
The only way is forward to find the what they
call him in songing advice, some fire, exceason, game of Thrones,
the sheep people, the lambsmen people. And here here's the strangest,
most disturbing part. One of the reasons, possibly one of

(52:24):
the reasons that the tomb is yet to be found
despite all this blood, sweat, tears and amazing technology applied
to the question, is that some people, many people do
not want it to be found, especially native Mongolians. They
don't want the tune to be disturbed. This is often described,
at least here in the West, in terms of a curse.

(52:46):
They'll say that Moriy Kravitz died because he got too close,
was cursed. And this idea is that disturbing or even
discovering the grave of the con will set in motion
this catastrophic series of events, triggering something like World War three. However,
what's interesting here as well is that many Mongolians who
reject the spiritual concerns and say, ah, the idea of

(53:07):
a curse is just a bunch of gobbledegook. They still
don't want the tomb discovered in their opinion for people
who would consider themselves skeptical, but I want this to
remain unknown. Their opinion is that if it was the
CON's wish, it was jengis CON's wish that his body
not be found, then his wishes should be respected. This

(53:29):
mixture of fear and respect is codified the modern day.
The mountains that often come up as candidates in the
search for the tomb are still considered sacred. Uh. There
were recent reports of a Mongolian researcher and a journalist
who I believe was British who were not still not
allowed in the modern day to climb Burkhan klled Doon

(53:50):
because they were women. Yeah, and it's still now it
used to be. The area that used to be known
as the i correg or Great Taboo is not now
called the Contental strictly protected area. It's a World Heritage
Site and because of this designation, it's been off limits

(54:10):
to most researchers, which strictly protected area. Yeah, how Lynn
get up in there? Though National geographics got some pool
he tells an interesting story about how near the end
of their project or at some point after they've been
there for a while, he was approached by their representatives
of the local shaman. And there's this great story. It's

(54:34):
clearly the central you know, kicker of his ted talk
moment where he shaking and why are you here? Why
are you here? And who are you and asked them
all these very existential questions. But ultimately, isn't like angry,
isn't like get out, isn't like don't do anything, because
at the same at the end of the day, they're
not going to dig it up. They're just like trying
to get some answers. And you know, but my big

(54:56):
question to you guys is who cares? Why? What? What's what?
What's what's there to find? Why don't need to see
a body? Why don't need to see these remnants? Because
it could create a watershed moment in archaeology. First off,
it would it would clarify the questions about the death right.
It would it would also from the perspective of any

(55:19):
Mongolian parties who want the tomb to be discovered, it
would be a massive cultural boon. You know. We would
also probably find a lot of stuff that's buried with
him that would answer questions about engineering, questions about human
technology at the time, that that we wouldn't know ordinarily.

(55:42):
But I think we don't have that from other sources, right,
I think the yeah to continue. I think that the
primary appeal for many people who are not Mongolian is
the the proving or disproving of various myths. This is
a enough for a lot of it to be essentially
legend and then also a bit of romanticization. I don't

(56:06):
think we can escape that. I think there's there's clearly
a bit of a rosy picture people paint. But I
have a question for you guys, which is what about
this this curse thing? It doesn't come out a whole cloth.
I mean, we've seen other historical leaders be have their
tombs described as cursed. Yeah, it's true. This guy named

(56:28):
George Edwards Stan Hope Malin no Herbert a k a.
The Earl of Carnavon was quite a fancy man who
fancied himself an amateur Egyptologist who was Carnavon is real?
Is that real? Yeah? That's he was the Earl of
car Carr carnar Carnarvon. Carnarvon, let's call it. I don't

(56:49):
like it. Yeah, come at me, Brits um. But yeah,
he he um. He apparently actually grew up in a
High Claire Castle, which is the estate where they filmed
Downton Abbey. So very fancy boy, he sure does. But
he also really was into Egyptology and single handedly, um
using wielding his influence and his obscene wealth, um, paid

(57:13):
for an expedition to open the tomb of the boy
King King Tuton. Comment looks like rain. Okay, yes, so
what what happened? Well, he hired this young, upstart archaeologist,
kind of a Brendan Fraser type, his prime not modern

(57:34):
day Brendan kind of sat Howard Carter was this man's name.
They had met through a guy named Gaston Mosparrow who
was the Director General of the Egyptian Department of Antiquities.
And yeah, they opened up this tomb and they found
all kinds of crazy stuff. And very shortly after visiting
Thebes to visit the site of the spoils of his investment,

(57:58):
We're gonna call him Carnarvon, as as is befitting his station.
He he died in short order after getting get this
bit by a mosquito. Whoa, So you get like the
malaria or some bods some real bad And I'm not
I'm not going as far. I'm not saying that didn't
know wasn't common. But man, what a kick in the pants, yeah,

(58:19):
or a bite in the leg. Yeah, And that's its
own you know, that's almost its own episode. The curse
of King tut right, we could do We already do that.
I know we've done a video for sure. It all blurs,
but search or search for it, see if you can
find and let us know who before. Yes, there's one
other example of a curse that oddly enough is related

(58:41):
to Mongols stuff as well, and that is Team or
or often called tamer Lane in the West. Uh. This
fear of grave consequences, get it in that grave. Yep,
great consequences. Let's sit in it. Everybody's sitting in it.
Not And I'm sorry, I'm sorry this this this fear

(59:02):
echoes concerns that regard the discovery of the legendary grave
of Tamerlane or Timore. In n one, Soviet archaeologists discovered
the grave of this guy's a fourteenth century Turkic Mongolian
king in some Arcan that the location called Emir cert
of Fact. Okay, it's just we cut it in the
original edit. But at first I mispronounced as gury Mur.

(59:26):
I honestly don't know if you did mispronouncing. It's unclear.
But it's the opportunity to just make a Swedish chef joke. Yeah,
it was funny. That's fine, that's it's done. You guys
gotta go for it. You already did it. What, go
ahead and try it. If you're listening to everybody, everybody
you're you're jogging past right now, we'll just think you're
a lot of fun. Yes, they'll say it together, ready,

(59:47):
three two one, Yeah, it's it's the location in Samarcan
where they found the tomb, and it bore a warning
allegedly of a terrible fate that would befall any and
all who disturbed the dead king's slumber. One worse than
me will rise. Immediately afterward, according to the story, the

(01:00:09):
Nazis invaded the Soviet Union, launching World War two's Eastern Front,
so two days after the tomb was opened, on the
night of June twenty, Nazi Germany declared war invaded the USSR.
A lot of people linked it with the opening of
that tomb, and the expedition was immediately wound up. The
remains of the guy were sent for study in Moscow. Coincidence, right,

(01:00:33):
especially when consider World War two was already in full swing.
People who believe in that curse think there's an additional fact.
They say the turning point of the war occurred at
the Battle of Stalingrad and the Soviets one exactly a
month after Stalin ordered the government to return Timore's remains
to Samarkand and bury him with full honors. WHOA I'm

(01:00:54):
gonna say, I think it's a coincidence. I think you
don't need a supernatural uh curse to be decent enough
to not desecrate a grave. Also are Egyptologist amateur gyptologist
Fancy Boy was known to have a bit poor health,
and you know, if you're if you're if you're not healthy,
something like a bloodborne illness from a mosquito, who might

(01:01:17):
take you out a little quicker. You're talking about carnerrn
Lord Carnivore. But actually Arthur Conan Doyle is one of
the ones who spread the idea of this curse with
as pertained to so to Doyle, a kind of fool
of those people. He but he was a bit of
a fabulous right, so a fictionist. Yeah, it is a

(01:01:40):
great tale, though, is I mean? Look, if I ever
am fortunate enough to die, then I am obviously going
to have some sort of curse inscribed. Like that's what
you want, right, Like Shakespeare does he have? Yeah, good
friend for Jesus sake, forbear to dig the dust and
close it here. Blessed be he man that spares these stones,

(01:02:03):
and cursed be he that moves my bones? And did
you notice it rhymes? Yeah? I used to get at that.
He kind of invented rhyming. Didn't name Shakespeare. Francis Bacon
is sown so just awesome. So yeah, so curses are common, Um,
I I don't know. This is as we end today's episode. First,

(01:02:23):
we want to thank you for hanging out with us,
and we want to ask you do you think this
tomb should be disturbed or found, especially if the people
who are descended from this empire don't want it to
be found. I am of the mind definitely not leavall
enough alone. Yeah, you know, don't disturb the ground if

(01:02:44):
you're not invited, you know what I mean. And that's
sort of the point of a curse, right, It's like,
don't mess with my stuff, are you gonna get cursed?
But also a lot of this depiction of it as
a curse, I feel like it comes from the West,
Like I couldn't find anythinging in Mongolian culture that said

(01:03:06):
this tomb is specifically cursed. You just found it being
the wishes of the man interred there, sort of like
the the old Kennedy curse. We sort of imposed this
notion of a cur of a curse on a series
of unfortunate events that sounds like a Netflix show children
children's popular series of children's books. So I don't know

(01:03:27):
about that. We're so pressyot uh. This episode, by the way,
let's just say we recorded that is brought to you
by Casper Mattresses Okay, alright, and Netflix and uh and
of course by Jenghis Khan, who has his motto has
always been don't disturb my grave r. And like the

(01:03:50):
legacy of Genghis Khan, we didn't even talk about the
weird genetic stuff, right, which stuff you should know has
a great episode on Like his legacy, this show will
continue at a later date. In the meantime, you can
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Conspiracy Stuff or Conspiracy Stuff Show some variation thereof you
can find us on Here's Where it Gets Crazy our

(01:04:11):
fantastic community page. Fantastic Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it's great,
great conversations there, hella, good memes, lots of fun stuff. Um,
I bet you will end up doing another Here's Where
it Gets Crazy episode before long, because that went really
well and it was just a great fun grab bag
way and the people on there super smart and interesting

(01:04:32):
and and no trolls need apply. And please also this
is a personal favorite. Right to our super producer Paul Decket,
and thank him for letting us go so long with
this episode. Yeah, but we had a great time. It's
a great episode. Thank you guys, and uh hey, write
to us call us one eight three three s T
d W y t K like I missed out on

(01:04:54):
that one. Yeah, you did, really fine. It's fine. Just
just put it in your number, your number, put it
in your phone and and call the number. Um, because
really you don't have to dial in anything anymore. It's
just a touch screen. It's you know, you know how
to do it. It goes straight to Matt's voicemail. Um,
but if you won't do any of that. You don't
like phones, you don't like internets, you know, like facebooks.
Whatever you can write. It's a good old fashioned email

(01:05:14):
and still technically involves the Internet. And we are conspiracy
at how Stuff Works dot com.