August 28, 2024 • 44 mins
When outsiders first encountered the ancient Inca Empire of Peru, they were astonished by the magnifcent stone work -- and struck by an abiding sense of mystery, a fascination which has only grown over the centuries. In the 1960s, a Peruvian physician began collecting a bizarre series of carved rocks known as the Ica stones. These stones, claim the true believers, do more than just teach us the hidden history Peru... depending on whom you ask, they may rewrite the history humans entirely. Tune in to learn more in part one of this special two-part episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is an Al.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you are here.
That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.
We would love it very much if you give us
a review on your podcast platform of choice. Our boss
gets especially less likely to murder us if it's on
(00:52):
Apple Podcast.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
True five star review and some pleasant words for us
as a Jules or as a show would be much appreciated.
Does help people discover the show, and you know, makes
us sleep better at night for the very reasons that
pen secause we don't have to sleep with one eye open.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
You have also joined us, folks, and you are very
much welcome into this global cabal. Technically we are a
global cabal. As we record this evening, you listening at home,
some of us in the US, some of us abroad.
End together we are diving into hidden history. It's a
(01:31):
controversial story in history always is. We are talking about
a rare genre of object that has for many decades now,
perhaps millennia, depending on who you ask. Fascinated archaeologist, ancient astronaut, theorist,
creationist like biblical creationist, and skeptics alike, all at the
(01:54):
same time. I kid you not the Eca stones. They're
kind of like a care character actor in the world
of conspiracy. Like if you heard the phrase, you might
not immediately recognize it, but if you saw one of
these stones, your memory would flash back to maybe a
BBC documentary to maybe Eric von Danikin's Chariot of the
(02:16):
Gods question mark, which is the title.
Speaker 5 (02:20):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Do you guys remember hearing about this stuff?
Speaker 4 (02:23):
I do, and especially in the context of episode that
you and I did recently, Ben, when Matt was away
about some kind of supposed alien artifacts discs or like,
you know, things with hieroglyphs carved in portraying some alternate
history that may or may not have actually taken place,
the idea of anachartistic technology.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
The troop of stones, that's the one. Yeah, Matt, do
you what about you? Man? Do you remember these?
Speaker 6 (02:49):
Yeah, it's been a minute. It's been quite a minute,
but we've been fascinated by humans, that is the Incan
Empire since it was discovered by people who were writing it,
writing down things about it, right, and it hasn't been
that long, which is crazy. But just the stones in
(03:11):
particular that are used in sites throughout Peru, throughout where
the Incan Empire was, they are baffling. They are so
perfect in incredible ways, in ways that they should not
be possibly that good. And I think that's why all
of us our fascination just flares up when it comes
to something like these specific stones, and we'll get into
(03:33):
exactly what they are.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
How did they get there? How did you get here?
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Well? How did I get here? I play man once in.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
A lifetime is what these things would be if they
in fact exist.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
H Paul, forgive us our cold opens keep getting longer.
But that was gold. Here are the facts. We start
with Peru. When most people think of Peru, the modern
day country, they immediately also think of the Inca Empire.
(04:12):
The Inca Empire first appeared in what we call Peru
today sometime during the twelfth century. Yet it arose from
the I would say, the jetsam in the flotsam of
many earlier pre Inca and civilizations in the region because
people have been living there for thousands and thousands and
(04:35):
thousands of years. The Inca Empire in the greater context
is to your point, Matt, they're kind of the new
kids on the block.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
The Inca has developed that culture in the Andes region
of South America modern day Peru, Northern Ecuadora, and Chile
and began to grow larger and larger through military conquests.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Essentially.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
I mean, they were, like you said, Ben, they were
sort of like conquering surround civilizations and sort of absorbing
them culturally speaking, and also militarily.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
Of course.
Speaker 6 (05:07):
They were also really good at defending their territory and
building places, structures and laying the mountain ways that could
be defended extremely well.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
And just add one last thing, not to sound like
I was just describing them as some sort of bloodthirsty
warring people, they were also damn good at diplomacy modeling
I don't know, systems of negotiation.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
That we might find at home in modern you know.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Maybe even more so how I was about to say,
you know, like diplomacy is maybe lacking a little bit.
These days in some parts of the world, but they
were great at it.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
It reminds me a little bit, guys, of the what
do we call it, pax romana, the idea that the
Roman Empire generated international peace of a sort caveat asterisk
asterisk during its time time. If there were different if
there were different medical solutions to new diseases, if history
(06:09):
had swung slightly left or right on the hinge, then
there may have been a pasperuvia. The point about diplomacy
cannot be left behind. Another word for the Inca, and
part of our pronunciation would be to Wanatinsuyu's I'm in
(06:30):
a weird place, so my accident's all weird now. But
this you're You're absolutely right, Nolan. I love that you
point this out. The empire, or what we'll call the
state of the Inca, spanned two thousand and five hundred
miles at its peak. No pun left behind peak. That's
a mountain joke.
Speaker 7 (06:48):
The empire, yes, the perfect The empire had twelve million
members individuals.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
From to that other point about disparate groups being gathered
together under the same system. These twelve million people came
from one hundred plus different ethnic groups and you have
to marvel at the sheer ambition, right, the cold genius
of a society like this, because despite their large, immensely
(07:24):
diverse population, the sprawling size, they were crazy cohesive, especially
like they could have taught the Europeans some lessons. They
had agricultural systems, they had roadways that were dope, especially
considering inhospitable mountainous terrain.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Isn't that interesting though, how Like culture is largely dictator
to the victors by like how point their weapons could
be versus another people, whether it be swords and that
kind of warfare, or just you know, the upgrade into firepower.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Like, it doesn't necessarily mean that because.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Of culture reign supreme, that they were like the superior
culture in terms of the things that they accomplished and
the organization and the structure of their civilization doesn't mean
that at all. In fact, sometimes it can mean quite
the opposite. Just means they had bigger guns.
Speaker 6 (08:13):
I just got his image in my mind of some
generals standing around a table. They're like, oh, crap, you guys,
the Mongolian Empires on its way here. And then another
general is like, yeah, but how pointy are their weapons?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
How I use point as a stand in for powerful.
But you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I hear the horses, and that's point actually there there.
You know, one of the big, one of the big
game changers, of course, was the stir up mm hmm.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
The bridle even I'm sure too, the bit.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah, So that would be all kind of part of
the same piece of And it's funny we don't think
about that stuff as technology, but a good saddle and
stirrup and bridle absolutely technology that allows you to harness
those horses and march them in into battle.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
Just before we get away from the agricultural stuff and
moving things around via roads and aqueducts and stuff like that.
The innovations that were happening agriculturally in this part of
the world, especially when you consider most of the soil
that was moved up to like an elevation of eleven
thousand feet. It had to be moved there. There was
no soil that was arable in those areas in those regions.
(09:24):
You had to change soil a little bit, move it
up there, and then grow stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
And for comparison, folks, to Matt's earlier point, eleven thousand
feet is three thousand is like three thousand, three hundred
and fifty something meters. It's a very long way to
hold stuff, especially when you're talking about hauling it pretty
much vertically, because you know it's the Andes dude.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
It just immediately makes me think of the Werner Herzog
film Fitzgeraldo where in Machu Picchu there's literally it's a
story about a dude that wants to build it up
opera house in this part of the world. He hauls
a ship over the mountains in that exact same fashion.
It's got to have been inspired, like you know, by
the actual history of it.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
It's a really interesting film.
Speaker 6 (10:11):
And that is not to say that there are not
jungles that are at seven thousand and eight thousand feet
in elevation there, which isn't nearly the feet of eleven
thousand feet in total, right, But it's still just the
matter of moving things inefficient ways at a time when
efficiency was hard to find.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
It's unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Just again, I'm sorry, I just I can't get over
just the innovation that be required to solve some of
these problems, you know, in functional ways.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
At Levy posit gentlemen, another prime mover of the success
of the Inca Empire. We spoke a bit about pointy sticks,
which is of course botonomy for weaponry, right for technology.
I would advance to you that the all of us
listening that the primary weapon, in many ways was also ideology.
(11:01):
Religion has ever been the pointiest stick of the human experiments.
So centralized religion, centralized language, a Lingua franca, right, shout
out to our pal Lingua Franca, the activist here in Georgia.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
The civilization as we know it blossomed over time, but
it fell quite quickly with the arrival of Spanish forces.
And a lot of times in the history books, the
way you read it is the Spanish came in and
they were jerks and they killed everybody. But what how
did they succeed? They came in amid a civil war
(11:42):
in the Incan Empire, the Incan Empire, the Inca excuse me,
empire was divided, and along come the Spanish forces. They had, yeah,
superior weaponry. Right, do you guys remember that book Guns,
Germs and Steel m This is I.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Think I get with the idea, yeah, by Jared Diamond.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
The other thing that the Spanish forces brought with them
was unfamiliar diseases. There was no herd immunity, and so
it came to pass. The last stronghold of the Incan
Empire was overtaken in fifteen seventy two, which is, you know,
the grand scheme of things. Like if we think about
(12:26):
how this empire arose on the same planet that gave
birth to dinosaurs, fifteen seventy two is pretty recent. What
blows everybody's mind. We actually don't know a ton about
this empire. We definitely don't know a ton about the
early days because they have no written records or I
(12:50):
don't know, like written records caveat, they have a nodding system.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
To commit we still don't understand.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Okay, yeah, we don't understand. We know it's there, but
it's like that weird canea form that no one can
decipher him.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
Yeah, because you were about to say, and I cut
you off in but it has something to do with numbers,
right and counting, and probably tied closely to the agricultural
stuff they had going on.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Probably yeah, and you know they were they were definitely
a monarchy, right. So a lot of a lot of
TLC tender loving care was put into documenting bloodlines and lineage.
Very House of the Dragon minus the Dragons. I guess
does that land?
Speaker 5 (13:36):
I think so.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
We always talk about how the Song of Ice and
Fire and all those Georgia R. Martin books are heavily
influenced and inspired by actual, you know, historical struggles and
political maneuvers and all that stuff.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
I do.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Like this picture.
Speaker 6 (13:51):
We're painting though, of assimilation to some extent, a ton
of innovation that's happening here. But because of that, as simil,
there are these groups. Eventually there's a civil war and
some outside group comes in and wipes them out, and
we're left. History is left to pick up the pieces
to figure out what the heck happened and who they
(14:13):
actually were, and we're still in the dark.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
But then these freaking stones. Man, oh, I'm sorry, get.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
These stones, these freaking stones. Yeah, so our present knowledge, like,
not just Westerners, not just the US, not just Peruvian
archaeologists themselves, the entire world. In the evenings of twenty
twenty four, all we know about Inca as people, as
(14:42):
a culture, as a civilization and empire. It comes from
a combination of really smart archaeological studies, oral tradition that
has been that was preserved by and I don't want
to sound dismissive here, it's preserved by a real life
version of the world burgers in Mad Max, like the
(15:03):
folklore or retelling of the stories, which goes back to
something we always reference the Great Game of Telephone and
there's something there's something we hit on just a second ago,
Matt that I think you mentioned the written accounts. The
first actual facts, written accounts of the Inca Empire come
(15:24):
from their enemies, the observers, the Spanish missionaries.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Isn't that the way too, that the bad guys get
to write the story?
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Now?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Well the okay, well, yes, the back.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
I mean you know now that you mentioned it, like been,
your reference to House of the Dragon in particular is
even more appropriate because, like that book was entirely historical
records that were then you know, interpreted and made into
a TV series probably require a lot of creative license,
because when you read things in this format, it's hard
(16:03):
sometimes to really know what the context is around how
someone's being described, you know, in terms of like their
acts and even these like nicknames that people get stuck
with throughout history.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Oh that's a great point, I think we're That reminds
me of what was it ethel read the unready?
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Yeah, nobody, nobody would name themselves that given the choice,
you know, but history determines that, and oftentimes history is
written by the people that are mad at you.
Speaker 6 (16:29):
Did he actually hold the door like that? I'm just saying, like,
did he actually hold the door like that?
Speaker 5 (16:34):
Did he?
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Did?
Speaker 6 (16:35):
He?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Though?
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah? It's like every time a new a new emperor
of Rome or a new pope gets on the scene,
Oh gosh. Yeah. Look, you don't have to have seen
the cinematic masterpiece Vibes, starring Jeff Goldbloom and Cindy Lapper.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
But you should just putting that out there.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Thank you, No, thank you? Yes you should. You should
see it. Yeah, you just see it. You don't have
to have seen it to realize. The Western world has
been obsessed with questions about this empire, partially due to
that lack of written records or primary sources, and a
(17:15):
lot of the allure comes from I think we can
say fairly a lot of the allure comes from all
these inexplicable physical artifacts. Right, Machu Pichu. We were talking
off air, and Matt you had mentioned you got super
into the questions that still remain about the fantastic stone work,
(17:40):
like talk about durability, right.
Speaker 6 (17:42):
Yeah, durability and perfection almost when it comes to the
smoothing of stones, the placing of stones. This is the
stuff that I don't know, pulled me into a lot
of these things back in the day when when I
was watching you know, the Creator of Cherries of the
Gods on Ancient Aliens and really getting a close up
(18:04):
view through my television screen of these sites specifically in
Peru that were It's like at the at the top
of Machu Picchu, if you keep going up right another
like forty five minutes an hour long hike, you get
to a place called Waina Piachu I think is the
name of it. It's like a it's an overlook of
(18:24):
Machu Pichu on the site, just from a different cliff
there or a different peak of the mountain. And there's
a place in that structure called the temple. They call
it the Temple of the Moon or something like that,
but it's not actually what it was for had nothing
really to do with the moon.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It was just it's titled that.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
But inside there the stone, the stone work, and the
stone structures. It just shouldn't it shouldn't have been able
to have been created without the presence of some of
the iron and steel implements that were never recovered or
found at any of these locations, which you know, maybe
they all through the tools off the mountain at the
(19:04):
end when they finished, but it sure seems like there
would be some tools around that would just be wasteful.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
I'd hate that.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
I mean, it does make you think of the kind
of you know, theories that revolve around the creation of
the pyramids, because of the type of technology that would
be required to achieve that level of symmetry and perfection
and just to hoist those damn blocks that high.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Yeah, it's a pickle, right, I mean, how do you
how do you explain this? Well?
Speaker 6 (19:30):
Yeah, and how do you do it without being dismissive
of the technology and intelligence of the people's right that
that you're referring to in either the Middle East or
here in Peru back in the day, and.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Eric von denikin of course, like many people went straight
to aliens. Yes, it's a little walk, yeah, bit of
a stroll.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
God, it would be cool, though, it would be.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
So freaking cool. Everybody check out vibes, so also Steve
Bushemis and vibes. All right, this is not the point
of the.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Story, so is Cindy Laubern.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Yes, yes, this all all, all of this brings oh
we didn't mention the Nosca lines, right, an earlier civilization
that predates the Inca. They created these huge petroglyphs, right,
geoglyphs millennia ago, and they're the most infamous thing about
(20:31):
them is that you can only really see the images
depicted by those if you are at a very high
elevation and they're in a very flat space, so there's
not like a mountain you could climb up to say,
oh that's a monkey, dude.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
Or the observations of space from I think they're called intwohanas.
I don't know how to say it correctly, but it's
the the astronomical observation sites that they created, and I
think there's only a couple of them left that are
somewhat intact.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
But the sophistication on that level, it's just it's cool.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Agreed, And this all brings us to a bizarre question
point of our exploration this evening, what if amid all
these mysteries, all these unanswered questions. The Inca did have
some written records that had only recently been recovered, records
that not only illuminate the history of Incan culture, but
(21:29):
in doing so fundamentally upend everything we know about history
entire According to the true believers, fringe scholars, revisionist historians,
conspiracy theorists, and at least one Peruvian physician, the answers
lay in something called the Eca Stones. Here's where it
(21:57):
gets crazy.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
Eca not Inca, right, right, I see a.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
The Eca Stones are a collection of stones that were
allegedly discovered in a cave near a place in Peru
in fact called Eca.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
Yet the issue isn't so.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Much the stones themselves, but much like the dropbut stones
that we mentioned recently, part of a stone series. What
is engraved into them?
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Mm?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
White walkers? Right, That's that's what's on there.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
God, they never really justified that symbol that the White
Walkers kept making, did They.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Just just don't don't think about it.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
End game. Game of Thrones not good.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
So I've been rewatching it and it's really good, guys,
But boy, I can't I can't put away as thought
in the back of my mind, how bad it's gonna
get you know what I mean, It's just I'm still
it is it is, but it's not hindering my enjoyment
of the good parts of it. So let's let's move
forward with that in mind. Sorry, Matt, you said White Walkers, Like,
(22:58):
what do you expect me to do?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Oh gosh, when's the winter will come out? At some point.
I believe in you, George.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
And I think it's go to glow all that shame away,
one would hope, you know what.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Also, a therapist worth their salt would say, don't let
fear of the future ruin enjoyment of the present. Maybe,
or anxiety or worry is just you know, conspiracy theories
about yourself.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
That I would also refer to something you bring up
Off and Ben, the sunk cost fallacy.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
You're starting to feel like it sucks. Just walk away.
You'll feel better about it, I promise you.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Just don't feel like you got to see it through
the end, because it doesn't get better once it starts
getting bad.
Speaker 7 (23:43):
So, oh boy, we're we're also folks, welcome backstage. We're
also alluding to some pretty intense conversations we had about
that show hanging out not related to our pursuit here
I remember texting about this. But proponents of the idea
(24:05):
that the eCos stones are genuine here's their controversial stance.
Here's what the vast majority of archaeology would call nuts
and bananas. They say these stones depict genuine hidden history,
that they are primary evidence of something unknown to the
(24:26):
modern world. Each of the stones called an eCos stone,
and we'll talk about their physical description in a second.
Each of them have what are called motifs carbon images,
and they often appear to contradict basic accepted facts about
the origin of Earth and the things living upon it,
(24:48):
for example, like the hot stuff, the juicy stuff. You'll
see stones that appear to depict human or human like
individuals in the gall harbor in the style of Inca
Maya or Aztec culture, attacking these huge monsters and they're
using axes, and the monsters are interpreted to be dinosaurs,
(25:13):
not dinosaurs, the way like a chicken is a dinosaur
or not dinosaurs, the way that a bird is a dinosaur.
But what are pal Lor and Voclobama call actual facts dinosaurs?
Speaker 6 (25:25):
Yeah, like depictions of dinosaurs that I remember from my childhood.
My mother is a school teacher, and she just brought
this book of dinosaurs over that she used to teach
kids when I was a kid, and it included a
bunch of these cutouts that she made. And in some
of these stones it looks it looks like a Brachiosaurus
(25:46):
or a Brontosaurus, which we know isn't the real thing anymore,
but it looks like those pictures.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
One of them is like a Nassi type creature, you know,
which I guess would have been what was this, the
big old boy that was a underwater long neck plesiosaurs. Yeah,
probably the plesiosaurs, Yeah, I guess. So this one is, Yeah,
it's got like a hump on its back. It really
does have like NeSSI vies, but you're right, Matt. The
triceratops here is like classic.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
Children's book triceratops depiction.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
And the thing that's interesting is if we were gonna
take this as a as a record of history, wouldn't
these dinosaurs not to be all Jurassic parking about it,
but wouldn't these dinosaurs have feathers? Like if these were
like the true dinosaurs that walk the earth. I don't know,
I just remember that being a thing.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Also real quick, plesiosaur I should show that up plesiosaur
is offered as a cryptozoological explanation for the purported existence
of NeSSI the luckedest sponsor. But the plesiosaur is not
a dinosaur. We are fun at parties?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
What is it?
Speaker 5 (26:45):
It's true?
Speaker 6 (26:48):
Man?
Speaker 5 (26:49):
I'm sorry, man, I mean I'm.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
A reptile that doesn't count as a dinosaur. I think
they're fair asaup terrig or something like that.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Gotcha, guess I'm I can think google it if you
have make signistiction with my potential history. But like Matt,
I mean, you really hit it on the head. The
stegosaurus here, like the plates depicted on its back, it
is like the stuff of like literal children's books about
how fun dinosaurs are.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
It's kind of wild.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
It's quite accessible, and I think that's what we're hitting on, right.
And if that's not enough. These stones also, because there
are many many, there are thousands of these, they also
appear to at times depict advanced technology, the usage of
something that could be interpreted as a telescope, medical procedures
(27:39):
like c sections, maybe a heart transplant in a culture
that we'll just get in front of this, folks, we
know about you know, blood, magic and all that stuff.
It's what is being depicted there seems much more medicinal
in nature than it does sacrificial in nature.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (28:01):
So when were these things found?
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Ah? That's where we get to a little bit of
a rabbit hole, right, because we know we know when
the primary proponent of these ideas encountered them, and that's
in nineteen sixty six. We don't know when the first
modern person modern as in like post Spanish conquest. We
(28:32):
don't know when the first person post fifteen hundreds found them,
which means we also don't know when they were lost
or buried or stored away. But we do know what
they look like. Most of them are pretty small. Most
of them are something you could hold in one or
two hands, summer tiny, like pebbles. A few of them
(28:53):
are outright boulders, like the biggest one is half a
meter in length. And the one thing they have in
common aside from these carvings, is that they are all
composed of a tremendously inconvenient type of volcanic rock called andesite.
Speaker 5 (29:09):
What makes it inconvenient?
Speaker 6 (29:10):
Man?
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Is it?
Speaker 5 (29:11):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (29:12):
It does have to do with problems with actually verifying
the authenticity or dating them.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
I would say one of the problems with dating them
is the unwillingness, uh to date them if we're I
know that sounds a little snarky, but from my understanding,
the issue with andesite, the reason it's an inconvenient rock
is that it's a pain in the ass to carve.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
You see it, you'll break apart right the brittle Yeah,
maybe not so much riddle as in, uh, the nature
of the material makes it difficult to put sophisticated designs
into it, and maybe that breaks breaks the surface.
Speaker 6 (29:54):
Yeah, I've seen it described as unyielding and flinty quote unquote, yeah, exactly.
And andesite is present in places like of some of
the stonework in Machu Pichu, some of the stone work
in Piasak or Pisac another one of these ruins that
has crazy carvings in and a site that just doesn't
(30:16):
make any dang sense. But just for this stone, it
makes sense for this to be one of the stones
that is, you know, primarily used in whatever this is.
If they're genuine artifacts, it makes a ton of sense.
But it is weird that they are that difficult to
work with.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Right, because we know, at least even without a written record,
we know that there were other stones in the roster
that could have been used.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
Yeah, carving granted, granted.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
Yeah, one of the things that humans have been carving
away at for a long time.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Granted. Is so hot right now, for the past several
thousand years, it's really.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Been I think it's I think it's cold places, it's
real up the cover.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Hang on a second, let's take a quick pause here,
hear a word from our sponsor, and then come back
to this discussion.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
And we've returned. What's going on now?
Speaker 4 (31:12):
Are you saying, Ben, that there were more convenient rocks
available at the time that maybe would have been more
conducive to making this kind of art in the time
that these are purported to have been created.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Absolutely, No, we're of course obviously, let's be honest, some
of us are related to sculptors of note. But it's
not like we finished this show and then you're.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Talking about none of the rest of us are awesome.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
It's true.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
We we did the Grand Industry at Alberton. If anybody
knows about the Georgia Kidstones, we did go visit some
of the folks there We've been to granite carving workshops
and it requires serious skill and the right tools to
get the job done. But yeah, I wanted to mention
Ben the anthracite. I looked this up and there's something
called the mos scale, which I was not aware of,
(32:08):
and it is a scale of mineral hardness. An anthracite
is a seven out of ten on the most scale and.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
Site that is at a site. Yeah, excuse me, a
seven out of ten.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Wow, that's why it's weird, guys.
Speaker 6 (32:22):
I had this clear image while we were talking earlier
of whatever next human being thing is that we've discussed
on the show a couple of times, whether it's technology,
you know, a technological man or a highly evolved weird man.
But they show up and they're just digging through the
remnants of what we're once houses, and like they seem
to all have these flat surfaces made of granite in
(32:47):
one particular area of all their living spaces. I maybe
it was a kitchen, sorry, I'm thinking about granite countertops.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
Or perhaps something for a sacrifice exact.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yeah, because people put their perspectives on it, they'll probably
conclude it was a shrine. You see these primitive meat
forms had had gods, and they did not know the
codes of their gods.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
They just to laugh.
Speaker 6 (33:17):
And they are all these knife carvings in the granite
that must be there on purpose from the rituals.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
It's like it's like when future historians or archaeologists travel,
you know, thousands and thousands of years back, and they
see the ruins of a modern metropolis, they're going to think.
They're going to see highway bridges and they're going to
mistake them for aqueducts, and they're going to see skyscrapers,
(33:43):
and they're going to think these people really worshiped penises.
Look at all these penis shrines and these aqueducts they're everywhere.
Speaker 5 (33:51):
Not to mention, their priorities were all jacked up.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Sorry, oh those worth no pud left behind.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
And also I just want to ask Matt, who are
these animals that are carving directly under their granite countertops?
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And then we must be stopped. Acident must be stopped.
Speaker 5 (34:08):
That must be stopped.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
All right, Okay, Emperor of cutting boards over here, this cutting.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
Board, guys, come on, respect the granite.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Respect them ories cutting boards. You got a board just
to just to cut?
Speaker 5 (34:23):
I got a board for meats.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
I got a board for veggies, and then I got
my nice board that I only bust out when I
have fancied dinner parties.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Like a turkey.
Speaker 5 (34:31):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
I'm very pressed with h Okay, I got a lot
to learn.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
I'm sorry I'm high rating you guys on the cutting boards.
I really do know.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
It's it's change is painful. It's a change we need
to make, and thank you for taking us there. So, no,
could you spell the most scale?
Speaker 5 (34:48):
Is it? M o hs m o hs scale? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Seven out of ten? Okay, so might be pronounced moss.
I think I'm going to say I like Mo's better.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
I like it too, you know. I mean you're the
one of us who has a cutting board, So I'm
taking like so so all of these stones, or question
naturally becomes how could someone carve into a stone of
(35:22):
this hardness right with the material science or with the
tools available? And then why would they choose that over
another perhaps more malleable stone. What we see here is
that all the ecastones have a patina, a dark a
dark coating degradation due to weather. It's an oxidized surface,
(35:43):
and the images that you see on these stones are
scratched into that surface rather than actually punched into the
act the stone itself.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
You know what, I bet that this type of stone
is used for if you, guys ever had a hot stone?
Must am I the only bougie person here?
Speaker 6 (36:03):
Who?
Speaker 5 (36:03):
Oh my god?
Speaker 4 (36:06):
There are there are listen, guys. I was also married
to a massage therapist. Okay, so that is mainly my
my references here. But there is a thing called homestone massages,
and they use these very smooth volcanic stones that hold
heat really well and are incredibly hard. And I'm almost
positive these are the exact same type that we're seeing here.
Speaker 6 (36:26):
No, I've actually gotten one of those two. That's fine,
I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Sorry to roast you a little bit there, it's it's
with great affection. I've just I'm laughing imagining first to
write about the stones, and secondly, I'm laughing imagining how
many emails we're gonna get with people saying you slobs,
get a cutting board.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
Now. Now, I will defend you guys to the bitter
and I know that, I know you're playing coy and
you both have.
Speaker 5 (36:55):
Copious cutting boards.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
But yeah, a volcanic rock another really hard one is
a basalt that would be very high iron, and I
believe that is what is used for that practice.
Speaker 5 (37:04):
But an andesite is very very close.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
To them one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (37:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
And the images on these, again, these many stones, they
vary quite widely in complexity. Some are simple pictures engraved
on just one side of the stone, right, like a
coin with an image stamped simply on the obverse. But
the other stones may have much more sophisticated complex designs.
(37:33):
And what's weird is we've looked at a lot of
these or research of this. These stones run the gamut
of known cultures throughout this part of South America modern
day Peru, Ecuador, Chile, we will call it. You could
see the Parakhas, the Nosca, the you mentioned Eim earlier, Matt,
(37:54):
the Tijuanaku, you can see the Inca others. Other stones
are coming out of nowhere, like who carved this, what
school of thought? What culture created this? And a lot
of the stones, especially spoiler, the more simplistic ones, they
tend to have motifs that you would recognize in the
(38:16):
wild today. Oh this is clearly a fish. Oh this
is a drawing of a flower and etching of a
flower that I would see somewhere else in the world,
or animals that might be alive today. You might see
basic geometric symbols, you know, triangles, fractal patterns, petroglyphs, geoglyphs.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
It kind of reminds me of that that hoax book
that ultimately wasn't really a hoax at all. The people
just kind of made much to do about it, the
Codex Seraphina. And then there was another one that depicted
like plant life and animal species that just don't exist.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
That's the one Voytage manuscript. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Just reminds me of that, which maybe is a reason
to give it a second look.
Speaker 6 (39:02):
Well, you may be thinking, as you're hearing the descriptions
of those things, that you've seen images of those things
in this area before, but on a much different scale.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
Nice nice one.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Yeah, nothing but net there, because some of the stones
do appear to emulate the massive images formed by the
earlier Nazca lines, right, and we are we're bracketing elementary
questions like carbon dating and age and providence for a
(39:40):
reason which you'll see later. But how mystifying is it
knowing just what we've learned now that a stone you
could hold maybe in one hand, shows you a very
close imitation of something that is huge wrought across a plane.
(40:02):
That's nuts.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
Yeah, especially given the theories of like why are the
Nosca lines that big?
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Why are they there? Who are they for?
Speaker 6 (40:10):
And then you think about on a smaller scale like this,
it makes a little more sense. I think if they're
smaller and meant for some reason for the other humans
that are going to handle them or see them on
a regular basis. But when you put those two things
and those concepts together being so similar, it just creates
another puzzle for me at least.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Yeah, hold the phone, fellow conspiracy realists. This has turned
into a rare two parter Hold the Stones, Oh, hold
the Inca Stones. Romance those Stones, if you will.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
Hot take Romancing the Stone better than Indiana Jones?
Speaker 5 (40:49):
Yeah, well, just kidding. I just want to get yelled at.
It's not true.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
You can speak as it rides, I have a simple entity.
We cannot wait to hear from you folks. Again, this
is a very rare two partner for us. We are
diving into the story of the Eca Stones. We can't
wait for you to join us for part two. In
the meantime, we've got some homework for you. Tell us
(41:13):
your favorite strange, anachronistic artifacts, events, or other things from
the bulk of history past. We tried to be easy
to find online.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
That's try.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
You can find us the handle conspiracy Stuff, where we
exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where it
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Speaker 6 (41:50):
Climb up to the top of Machu Pichu and yell
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If you actually do that and send a video to us,
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Speaker 2 (42:01):
Wellet you something exactly.
Speaker 6 (42:05):
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Speaker 3 (42:24):
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(42:48):
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(43:12):
I made up. I almost told you, guys, before we
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Stuff they don't want You to Know is a production
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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is an Al.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you are here.
That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.
We would love it very much if you give us
a review on your podcast platform of choice. Our boss
gets especially less likely to murder us if it's on
(00:52):
Apple Podcast.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
True five star review and some pleasant words for us
as a Jules or as a show would be much appreciated.
Does help people discover the show, and you know, makes
us sleep better at night for the very reasons that
pen secause we don't have to sleep with one eye open.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
You have also joined us, folks, and you are very
much welcome into this global cabal. Technically we are a
global cabal. As we record this evening, you listening at home,
some of us in the US, some of us abroad.
End together we are diving into hidden history. It's a
(01:31):
controversial story in history always is. We are talking about
a rare genre of object that has for many decades now,
perhaps millennia, depending on who you ask. Fascinated archaeologist, ancient astronaut, theorist,
creationist like biblical creationist, and skeptics alike, all at the
(01:54):
same time. I kid you not the Eca stones. They're
kind of like a care character actor in the world
of conspiracy. Like if you heard the phrase, you might
not immediately recognize it, but if you saw one of
these stones, your memory would flash back to maybe a
BBC documentary to maybe Eric von Danikin's Chariot of the
(02:16):
Gods question mark, which is the title.
Speaker 5 (02:20):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Do you guys remember hearing about this stuff?
Speaker 4 (02:23):
I do, and especially in the context of episode that
you and I did recently, Ben, when Matt was away
about some kind of supposed alien artifacts discs or like,
you know, things with hieroglyphs carved in portraying some alternate
history that may or may not have actually taken place,
the idea of anachartistic technology.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
The troop of stones, that's the one. Yeah, Matt, do
you what about you? Man? Do you remember these?
Speaker 6 (02:49):
Yeah, it's been a minute. It's been quite a minute,
but we've been fascinated by humans, that is the Incan
Empire since it was discovered by people who were writing it,
writing down things about it, right, and it hasn't been
that long, which is crazy. But just the stones in
(03:11):
particular that are used in sites throughout Peru, throughout where
the Incan Empire was, they are baffling. They are so
perfect in incredible ways, in ways that they should not
be possibly that good. And I think that's why all
of us our fascination just flares up when it comes
to something like these specific stones, and we'll get into
(03:33):
exactly what they are.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
How did they get there? How did you get here?
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Well? How did I get here? I play man once in.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
A lifetime is what these things would be if they
in fact exist.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
H Paul, forgive us our cold opens keep getting longer.
But that was gold. Here are the facts. We start
with Peru. When most people think of Peru, the modern
day country, they immediately also think of the Inca Empire.
(04:12):
The Inca Empire first appeared in what we call Peru
today sometime during the twelfth century. Yet it arose from
the I would say, the jetsam in the flotsam of
many earlier pre Inca and civilizations in the region because
people have been living there for thousands and thousands and
(04:35):
thousands of years. The Inca Empire in the greater context
is to your point, Matt, they're kind of the new
kids on the block.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
The Inca has developed that culture in the Andes region
of South America modern day Peru, Northern Ecuadora, and Chile
and began to grow larger and larger through military conquests.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Essentially.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
I mean, they were, like you said, Ben, they were
sort of like conquering surround civilizations and sort of absorbing
them culturally speaking, and also militarily.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
Of course.
Speaker 6 (05:07):
They were also really good at defending their territory and
building places, structures and laying the mountain ways that could
be defended extremely well.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
And just add one last thing, not to sound like
I was just describing them as some sort of bloodthirsty
warring people, they were also damn good at diplomacy modeling
I don't know, systems of negotiation.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
That we might find at home in modern you know.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Maybe even more so how I was about to say,
you know, like diplomacy is maybe lacking a little bit.
These days in some parts of the world, but they
were great at it.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
It reminds me a little bit, guys, of the what
do we call it, pax romana, the idea that the
Roman Empire generated international peace of a sort caveat asterisk
asterisk during its time time. If there were different if
there were different medical solutions to new diseases, if history
(06:09):
had swung slightly left or right on the hinge, then
there may have been a pasperuvia. The point about diplomacy
cannot be left behind. Another word for the Inca, and
part of our pronunciation would be to Wanatinsuyu's I'm in
(06:30):
a weird place, so my accident's all weird now. But
this you're You're absolutely right, Nolan. I love that you
point this out. The empire, or what we'll call the
state of the Inca, spanned two thousand and five hundred
miles at its peak. No pun left behind peak. That's
a mountain joke.
Speaker 7 (06:48):
The empire, yes, the perfect The empire had twelve million
members individuals.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
From to that other point about disparate groups being gathered
together under the same system. These twelve million people came
from one hundred plus different ethnic groups and you have
to marvel at the sheer ambition, right, the cold genius
of a society like this, because despite their large, immensely
(07:24):
diverse population, the sprawling size, they were crazy cohesive, especially
like they could have taught the Europeans some lessons. They
had agricultural systems, they had roadways that were dope, especially
considering inhospitable mountainous terrain.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Isn't that interesting though, how Like culture is largely dictator
to the victors by like how point their weapons could
be versus another people, whether it be swords and that
kind of warfare, or just you know, the upgrade into firepower.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Like, it doesn't necessarily mean that because.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Of culture reign supreme, that they were like the superior
culture in terms of the things that they accomplished and
the organization and the structure of their civilization doesn't mean
that at all. In fact, sometimes it can mean quite
the opposite. Just means they had bigger guns.
Speaker 6 (08:13):
I just got his image in my mind of some
generals standing around a table. They're like, oh, crap, you guys,
the Mongolian Empires on its way here. And then another
general is like, yeah, but how pointy are their weapons?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
How I use point as a stand in for powerful.
But you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I hear the horses, and that's point actually there there.
You know, one of the big, one of the big
game changers, of course, was the stir up mm hmm.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
The bridle even I'm sure too, the bit.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah, So that would be all kind of part of
the same piece of And it's funny we don't think
about that stuff as technology, but a good saddle and
stirrup and bridle absolutely technology that allows you to harness
those horses and march them in into battle.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
Just before we get away from the agricultural stuff and
moving things around via roads and aqueducts and stuff like that.
The innovations that were happening agriculturally in this part of
the world, especially when you consider most of the soil
that was moved up to like an elevation of eleven
thousand feet. It had to be moved there. There was
no soil that was arable in those areas in those regions.
(09:24):
You had to change soil a little bit, move it
up there, and then grow stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
And for comparison, folks, to Matt's earlier point, eleven thousand
feet is three thousand is like three thousand, three hundred
and fifty something meters. It's a very long way to
hold stuff, especially when you're talking about hauling it pretty
much vertically, because you know it's the Andes dude.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
It just immediately makes me think of the Werner Herzog
film Fitzgeraldo where in Machu Picchu there's literally it's a
story about a dude that wants to build it up
opera house in this part of the world. He hauls
a ship over the mountains in that exact same fashion.
It's got to have been inspired, like you know, by
the actual history of it.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
It's a really interesting film.
Speaker 6 (10:11):
And that is not to say that there are not
jungles that are at seven thousand and eight thousand feet
in elevation there, which isn't nearly the feet of eleven
thousand feet in total, right, But it's still just the
matter of moving things inefficient ways at a time when
efficiency was hard to find.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
It's unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Just again, I'm sorry, I just I can't get over
just the innovation that be required to solve some of
these problems, you know, in functional ways.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
At Levy posit gentlemen, another prime mover of the success
of the Inca Empire. We spoke a bit about pointy sticks,
which is of course botonomy for weaponry, right for technology.
I would advance to you that the all of us
listening that the primary weapon, in many ways was also ideology.
(11:01):
Religion has ever been the pointiest stick of the human experiments.
So centralized religion, centralized language, a Lingua franca, right, shout
out to our pal Lingua Franca, the activist here in Georgia.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
The civilization as we know it blossomed over time, but
it fell quite quickly with the arrival of Spanish forces.
And a lot of times in the history books, the
way you read it is the Spanish came in and
they were jerks and they killed everybody. But what how
did they succeed? They came in amid a civil war
(11:42):
in the Incan Empire, the Incan Empire, the Inca excuse me,
empire was divided, and along come the Spanish forces. They had, yeah,
superior weaponry. Right, do you guys remember that book Guns,
Germs and Steel m This is I.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Think I get with the idea, yeah, by Jared Diamond.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
The other thing that the Spanish forces brought with them
was unfamiliar diseases. There was no herd immunity, and so
it came to pass. The last stronghold of the Incan
Empire was overtaken in fifteen seventy two, which is, you know,
the grand scheme of things. Like if we think about
(12:26):
how this empire arose on the same planet that gave
birth to dinosaurs, fifteen seventy two is pretty recent. What
blows everybody's mind. We actually don't know a ton about
this empire. We definitely don't know a ton about the
early days because they have no written records or I
(12:50):
don't know, like written records caveat, they have a nodding system.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
To commit we still don't understand.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Okay, yeah, we don't understand. We know it's there, but
it's like that weird canea form that no one can
decipher him.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
Yeah, because you were about to say, and I cut
you off in but it has something to do with numbers,
right and counting, and probably tied closely to the agricultural
stuff they had going on.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Probably yeah, and you know they were they were definitely
a monarchy, right. So a lot of a lot of
TLC tender loving care was put into documenting bloodlines and lineage.
Very House of the Dragon minus the Dragons. I guess
does that land?
Speaker 5 (13:36):
I think so.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
We always talk about how the Song of Ice and
Fire and all those Georgia R. Martin books are heavily
influenced and inspired by actual, you know, historical struggles and
political maneuvers and all that stuff.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
I do.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Like this picture.
Speaker 6 (13:51):
We're painting though, of assimilation to some extent, a ton
of innovation that's happening here. But because of that, as simil,
there are these groups. Eventually there's a civil war and
some outside group comes in and wipes them out, and
we're left. History is left to pick up the pieces
to figure out what the heck happened and who they
(14:13):
actually were, and we're still in the dark.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
But then these freaking stones. Man, oh, I'm sorry, get.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
These stones, these freaking stones. Yeah, so our present knowledge, like,
not just Westerners, not just the US, not just Peruvian
archaeologists themselves, the entire world. In the evenings of twenty
twenty four, all we know about Inca as people, as
(14:42):
a culture, as a civilization and empire. It comes from
a combination of really smart archaeological studies, oral tradition that
has been that was preserved by and I don't want
to sound dismissive here, it's preserved by a real life
version of the world burgers in Mad Max, like the
(15:03):
folklore or retelling of the stories, which goes back to
something we always reference the Great Game of Telephone and
there's something there's something we hit on just a second ago,
Matt that I think you mentioned the written accounts. The
first actual facts, written accounts of the Inca Empire come
(15:24):
from their enemies, the observers, the Spanish missionaries.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Isn't that the way too, that the bad guys get
to write the story?
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Now?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Well the okay, well, yes, the back.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
I mean you know now that you mentioned it, like been,
your reference to House of the Dragon in particular is
even more appropriate because, like that book was entirely historical
records that were then you know, interpreted and made into
a TV series probably require a lot of creative license,
because when you read things in this format, it's hard
(16:03):
sometimes to really know what the context is around how
someone's being described, you know, in terms of like their
acts and even these like nicknames that people get stuck
with throughout history.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Oh that's a great point, I think we're That reminds
me of what was it ethel read the unready?
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Yeah, nobody, nobody would name themselves that given the choice,
you know, but history determines that, and oftentimes history is
written by the people that are mad at you.
Speaker 6 (16:29):
Did he actually hold the door like that? I'm just saying, like,
did he actually hold the door like that?
Speaker 5 (16:34):
Did he?
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Did?
Speaker 6 (16:35):
He?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Though?
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah? It's like every time a new a new emperor
of Rome or a new pope gets on the scene,
Oh gosh. Yeah. Look, you don't have to have seen
the cinematic masterpiece Vibes, starring Jeff Goldbloom and Cindy Lapper.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
But you should just putting that out there.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Thank you, No, thank you? Yes you should. You should
see it. Yeah, you just see it. You don't have
to have seen it to realize. The Western world has
been obsessed with questions about this empire, partially due to
that lack of written records or primary sources, and a
(17:15):
lot of the allure comes from I think we can
say fairly a lot of the allure comes from all
these inexplicable physical artifacts. Right, Machu Pichu. We were talking
off air, and Matt you had mentioned you got super
into the questions that still remain about the fantastic stone work,
(17:40):
like talk about durability, right.
Speaker 6 (17:42):
Yeah, durability and perfection almost when it comes to the
smoothing of stones, the placing of stones. This is the
stuff that I don't know, pulled me into a lot
of these things back in the day when when I
was watching you know, the Creator of Cherries of the
Gods on Ancient Aliens and really getting a close up
(18:04):
view through my television screen of these sites specifically in
Peru that were It's like at the at the top
of Machu Picchu, if you keep going up right another
like forty five minutes an hour long hike, you get
to a place called Waina Piachu I think is the
name of it. It's like a it's an overlook of
(18:24):
Machu Pichu on the site, just from a different cliff
there or a different peak of the mountain. And there's
a place in that structure called the temple. They call
it the Temple of the Moon or something like that,
but it's not actually what it was for had nothing
really to do with the moon.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It was just it's titled that.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
But inside there the stone, the stone work, and the
stone structures. It just shouldn't it shouldn't have been able
to have been created without the presence of some of
the iron and steel implements that were never recovered or
found at any of these locations, which you know, maybe
they all through the tools off the mountain at the
(19:04):
end when they finished, but it sure seems like there
would be some tools around that would just be wasteful.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
I'd hate that.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
I mean, it does make you think of the kind
of you know, theories that revolve around the creation of
the pyramids, because of the type of technology that would
be required to achieve that level of symmetry and perfection
and just to hoist those damn blocks that high.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Yeah, it's a pickle, right, I mean, how do you
how do you explain this? Well?
Speaker 6 (19:30):
Yeah, and how do you do it without being dismissive
of the technology and intelligence of the people's right that
that you're referring to in either the Middle East or
here in Peru back in the day, and.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Eric von denikin of course, like many people went straight
to aliens. Yes, it's a little walk, yeah, bit of
a stroll.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
God, it would be cool, though, it would be.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
So freaking cool. Everybody check out vibes, so also Steve
Bushemis and vibes. All right, this is not the point
of the.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Story, so is Cindy Laubern.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Yes, yes, this all all, all of this brings oh
we didn't mention the Nosca lines, right, an earlier civilization
that predates the Inca. They created these huge petroglyphs, right,
geoglyphs millennia ago, and they're the most infamous thing about
(20:31):
them is that you can only really see the images
depicted by those if you are at a very high
elevation and they're in a very flat space, so there's
not like a mountain you could climb up to say,
oh that's a monkey, dude.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
Or the observations of space from I think they're called intwohanas.
I don't know how to say it correctly, but it's
the the astronomical observation sites that they created, and I
think there's only a couple of them left that are
somewhat intact.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
But the sophistication on that level, it's just it's cool.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Agreed, And this all brings us to a bizarre question
point of our exploration this evening, what if amid all
these mysteries, all these unanswered questions. The Inca did have
some written records that had only recently been recovered, records
that not only illuminate the history of Incan culture, but
(21:29):
in doing so fundamentally upend everything we know about history
entire According to the true believers, fringe scholars, revisionist historians,
conspiracy theorists, and at least one Peruvian physician, the answers
lay in something called the Eca Stones. Here's where it
(21:57):
gets crazy.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
Eca not Inca, right, right, I see a.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
The Eca Stones are a collection of stones that were
allegedly discovered in a cave near a place in Peru
in fact called Eca.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
Yet the issue isn't so.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Much the stones themselves, but much like the dropbut stones
that we mentioned recently, part of a stone series. What
is engraved into them?
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Mm?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
White walkers? Right, That's that's what's on there.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
God, they never really justified that symbol that the White
Walkers kept making, did They.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Just just don't don't think about it.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
End game. Game of Thrones not good.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
So I've been rewatching it and it's really good, guys,
But boy, I can't I can't put away as thought
in the back of my mind, how bad it's gonna
get you know what I mean, It's just I'm still
it is it is, but it's not hindering my enjoyment
of the good parts of it. So let's let's move
forward with that in mind. Sorry, Matt, you said White Walkers, Like,
(22:58):
what do you expect me to do?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Oh gosh, when's the winter will come out? At some point.
I believe in you, George.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
And I think it's go to glow all that shame away,
one would hope, you know what.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Also, a therapist worth their salt would say, don't let
fear of the future ruin enjoyment of the present. Maybe,
or anxiety or worry is just you know, conspiracy theories
about yourself.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
That I would also refer to something you bring up
Off and Ben, the sunk cost fallacy.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
You're starting to feel like it sucks. Just walk away.
You'll feel better about it, I promise you.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Just don't feel like you got to see it through
the end, because it doesn't get better once it starts
getting bad.
Speaker 7 (23:43):
So, oh boy, we're we're also folks, welcome backstage. We're
also alluding to some pretty intense conversations we had about
that show hanging out not related to our pursuit here
I remember texting about this. But proponents of the idea
(24:05):
that the eCos stones are genuine here's their controversial stance.
Here's what the vast majority of archaeology would call nuts
and bananas. They say these stones depict genuine hidden history,
that they are primary evidence of something unknown to the
(24:26):
modern world. Each of the stones called an eCos stone,
and we'll talk about their physical description in a second.
Each of them have what are called motifs carbon images,
and they often appear to contradict basic accepted facts about
the origin of Earth and the things living upon it,
(24:48):
for example, like the hot stuff, the juicy stuff. You'll
see stones that appear to depict human or human like
individuals in the gall harbor in the style of Inca
Maya or Aztec culture, attacking these huge monsters and they're
using axes, and the monsters are interpreted to be dinosaurs,
(25:13):
not dinosaurs, the way like a chicken is a dinosaur
or not dinosaurs, the way that a bird is a dinosaur.
But what are pal Lor and Voclobama call actual facts dinosaurs?
Speaker 6 (25:25):
Yeah, like depictions of dinosaurs that I remember from my childhood.
My mother is a school teacher, and she just brought
this book of dinosaurs over that she used to teach
kids when I was a kid, and it included a
bunch of these cutouts that she made. And in some
of these stones it looks it looks like a Brachiosaurus
(25:46):
or a Brontosaurus, which we know isn't the real thing anymore,
but it looks like those pictures.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
One of them is like a Nassi type creature, you know,
which I guess would have been what was this, the
big old boy that was a underwater long neck plesiosaurs. Yeah,
probably the plesiosaurs, Yeah, I guess. So this one is, Yeah,
it's got like a hump on its back. It really
does have like NeSSI vies, but you're right, Matt. The
triceratops here is like classic.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
Children's book triceratops depiction.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
And the thing that's interesting is if we were gonna
take this as a as a record of history, wouldn't
these dinosaurs not to be all Jurassic parking about it,
but wouldn't these dinosaurs have feathers? Like if these were
like the true dinosaurs that walk the earth. I don't know,
I just remember that being a thing.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Also real quick, plesiosaur I should show that up plesiosaur
is offered as a cryptozoological explanation for the purported existence
of NeSSI the luckedest sponsor. But the plesiosaur is not
a dinosaur. We are fun at parties?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
What is it?
Speaker 5 (26:45):
It's true?
Speaker 6 (26:48):
Man?
Speaker 5 (26:49):
I'm sorry, man, I mean I'm.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
A reptile that doesn't count as a dinosaur. I think
they're fair asaup terrig or something like that.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Gotcha, guess I'm I can think google it if you
have make signistiction with my potential history. But like Matt,
I mean, you really hit it on the head. The
stegosaurus here, like the plates depicted on its back, it
is like the stuff of like literal children's books about
how fun dinosaurs are.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
It's kind of wild.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
It's quite accessible, and I think that's what we're hitting on, right.
And if that's not enough. These stones also, because there
are many many, there are thousands of these, they also
appear to at times depict advanced technology, the usage of
something that could be interpreted as a telescope, medical procedures
(27:39):
like c sections, maybe a heart transplant in a culture
that we'll just get in front of this, folks, we
know about you know, blood, magic and all that stuff.
It's what is being depicted there seems much more medicinal
in nature than it does sacrificial in nature.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (28:01):
So when were these things found?
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Ah? That's where we get to a little bit of
a rabbit hole, right, because we know we know when
the primary proponent of these ideas encountered them, and that's
in nineteen sixty six. We don't know when the first
modern person modern as in like post Spanish conquest. We
(28:32):
don't know when the first person post fifteen hundreds found them,
which means we also don't know when they were lost
or buried or stored away. But we do know what
they look like. Most of them are pretty small. Most
of them are something you could hold in one or
two hands, summer tiny, like pebbles. A few of them
(28:53):
are outright boulders, like the biggest one is half a
meter in length. And the one thing they have in
common aside from these carvings, is that they are all
composed of a tremendously inconvenient type of volcanic rock called andesite.
Speaker 5 (29:09):
What makes it inconvenient?
Speaker 6 (29:10):
Man?
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Is it?
Speaker 5 (29:11):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (29:12):
It does have to do with problems with actually verifying
the authenticity or dating them.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
I would say one of the problems with dating them
is the unwillingness, uh to date them if we're I
know that sounds a little snarky, but from my understanding,
the issue with andesite, the reason it's an inconvenient rock
is that it's a pain in the ass to carve.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
You see it, you'll break apart right the brittle Yeah,
maybe not so much riddle as in, uh, the nature
of the material makes it difficult to put sophisticated designs
into it, and maybe that breaks breaks the surface.
Speaker 6 (29:54):
Yeah, I've seen it described as unyielding and flinty quote unquote, yeah, exactly.
And andesite is present in places like of some of
the stonework in Machu Pichu, some of the stone work
in Piasak or Pisac another one of these ruins that
has crazy carvings in and a site that just doesn't
(30:16):
make any dang sense. But just for this stone, it
makes sense for this to be one of the stones
that is, you know, primarily used in whatever this is.
If they're genuine artifacts, it makes a ton of sense.
But it is weird that they are that difficult to
work with.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Right, because we know, at least even without a written record,
we know that there were other stones in the roster
that could have been used.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
Yeah, carving granted, granted.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
Yeah, one of the things that humans have been carving
away at for a long time.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Granted. Is so hot right now, for the past several
thousand years, it's really.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Been I think it's I think it's cold places, it's
real up the cover.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Hang on a second, let's take a quick pause here,
hear a word from our sponsor, and then come back
to this discussion.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
And we've returned. What's going on now?
Speaker 4 (31:12):
Are you saying, Ben, that there were more convenient rocks
available at the time that maybe would have been more
conducive to making this kind of art in the time
that these are purported to have been created.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Absolutely, No, we're of course obviously, let's be honest, some
of us are related to sculptors of note. But it's
not like we finished this show and then you're.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Talking about none of the rest of us are awesome.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
It's true.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
We we did the Grand Industry at Alberton. If anybody
knows about the Georgia Kidstones, we did go visit some
of the folks there We've been to granite carving workshops
and it requires serious skill and the right tools to
get the job done. But yeah, I wanted to mention
Ben the anthracite. I looked this up and there's something
called the mos scale, which I was not aware of,
(32:08):
and it is a scale of mineral hardness. An anthracite
is a seven out of ten on the most scale and.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
Site that is at a site. Yeah, excuse me, a
seven out of ten.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Wow, that's why it's weird, guys.
Speaker 6 (32:22):
I had this clear image while we were talking earlier
of whatever next human being thing is that we've discussed
on the show a couple of times, whether it's technology,
you know, a technological man or a highly evolved weird man.
But they show up and they're just digging through the
remnants of what we're once houses, and like they seem
to all have these flat surfaces made of granite in
(32:47):
one particular area of all their living spaces. I maybe
it was a kitchen, sorry, I'm thinking about granite countertops.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
Or perhaps something for a sacrifice exact.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yeah, because people put their perspectives on it, they'll probably
conclude it was a shrine. You see these primitive meat
forms had had gods, and they did not know the
codes of their gods.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
They just to laugh.
Speaker 6 (33:17):
And they are all these knife carvings in the granite
that must be there on purpose from the rituals.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
It's like it's like when future historians or archaeologists travel,
you know, thousands and thousands of years back, and they
see the ruins of a modern metropolis, they're going to think.
They're going to see highway bridges and they're going to
mistake them for aqueducts, and they're going to see skyscrapers,
(33:43):
and they're going to think these people really worshiped penises.
Look at all these penis shrines and these aqueducts they're everywhere.
Speaker 5 (33:51):
Not to mention, their priorities were all jacked up.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Sorry, oh those worth no pud left behind.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
And also I just want to ask Matt, who are
these animals that are carving directly under their granite countertops?
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And then we must be stopped. Acident must be stopped.
Speaker 5 (34:08):
That must be stopped.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
All right, Okay, Emperor of cutting boards over here, this cutting.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
Board, guys, come on, respect the granite.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Respect them ories cutting boards. You got a board just
to just to cut?
Speaker 5 (34:23):
I got a board for meats.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
I got a board for veggies, and then I got
my nice board that I only bust out when I
have fancied dinner parties.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Like a turkey.
Speaker 5 (34:31):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
I'm very pressed with h Okay, I got a lot
to learn.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
I'm sorry I'm high rating you guys on the cutting boards.
I really do know.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
It's it's change is painful. It's a change we need
to make, and thank you for taking us there. So, no,
could you spell the most scale?
Speaker 5 (34:48):
Is it? M o hs m o hs scale? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Seven out of ten? Okay, so might be pronounced moss.
I think I'm going to say I like Mo's better.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
I like it too, you know. I mean you're the
one of us who has a cutting board, So I'm
taking like so so all of these stones, or question
naturally becomes how could someone carve into a stone of
(35:22):
this hardness right with the material science or with the
tools available? And then why would they choose that over
another perhaps more malleable stone. What we see here is
that all the ecastones have a patina, a dark a
dark coating degradation due to weather. It's an oxidized surface,
(35:43):
and the images that you see on these stones are
scratched into that surface rather than actually punched into the
act the stone itself.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
You know what, I bet that this type of stone
is used for if you, guys ever had a hot stone?
Must am I the only bougie person here?
Speaker 6 (36:03):
Who?
Speaker 5 (36:03):
Oh my god?
Speaker 4 (36:06):
There are there are listen, guys. I was also married
to a massage therapist. Okay, so that is mainly my
my references here. But there is a thing called homestone massages,
and they use these very smooth volcanic stones that hold
heat really well and are incredibly hard. And I'm almost
positive these are the exact same type that we're seeing here.
Speaker 6 (36:26):
No, I've actually gotten one of those two. That's fine,
I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Sorry to roast you a little bit there, it's it's
with great affection. I've just I'm laughing imagining first to
write about the stones, and secondly, I'm laughing imagining how
many emails we're gonna get with people saying you slobs,
get a cutting board.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
Now. Now, I will defend you guys to the bitter
and I know that, I know you're playing coy and
you both have.
Speaker 5 (36:55):
Copious cutting boards.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
But yeah, a volcanic rock another really hard one is
a basalt that would be very high iron, and I
believe that is what is used for that practice.
Speaker 5 (37:04):
But an andesite is very very close.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
To them one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (37:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
And the images on these, again, these many stones, they
vary quite widely in complexity. Some are simple pictures engraved
on just one side of the stone, right, like a
coin with an image stamped simply on the obverse. But
the other stones may have much more sophisticated complex designs.
(37:33):
And what's weird is we've looked at a lot of
these or research of this. These stones run the gamut
of known cultures throughout this part of South America modern
day Peru, Ecuador, Chile, we will call it. You could
see the Parakhas, the Nosca, the you mentioned Eim earlier, Matt,
(37:54):
the Tijuanaku, you can see the Inca others. Other stones
are coming out of nowhere, like who carved this, what
school of thought? What culture created this? And a lot
of the stones, especially spoiler, the more simplistic ones, they
tend to have motifs that you would recognize in the
(38:16):
wild today. Oh this is clearly a fish. Oh this
is a drawing of a flower and etching of a
flower that I would see somewhere else in the world,
or animals that might be alive today. You might see
basic geometric symbols, you know, triangles, fractal patterns, petroglyphs, geoglyphs.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
It kind of reminds me of that that hoax book
that ultimately wasn't really a hoax at all. The people
just kind of made much to do about it, the
Codex Seraphina. And then there was another one that depicted
like plant life and animal species that just don't exist.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
That's the one Voytage manuscript. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Just reminds me of that, which maybe is a reason
to give it a second look.
Speaker 6 (39:02):
Well, you may be thinking, as you're hearing the descriptions
of those things, that you've seen images of those things
in this area before, but on a much different scale.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
Nice nice one.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Yeah, nothing but net there, because some of the stones
do appear to emulate the massive images formed by the
earlier Nazca lines, right, and we are we're bracketing elementary
questions like carbon dating and age and providence for a
(39:40):
reason which you'll see later. But how mystifying is it
knowing just what we've learned now that a stone you
could hold maybe in one hand, shows you a very
close imitation of something that is huge wrought across a plane.
(40:02):
That's nuts.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
Yeah, especially given the theories of like why are the
Nosca lines that big?
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Why are they there? Who are they for?
Speaker 6 (40:10):
And then you think about on a smaller scale like this,
it makes a little more sense. I think if they're
smaller and meant for some reason for the other humans
that are going to handle them or see them on
a regular basis. But when you put those two things
and those concepts together being so similar, it just creates
another puzzle for me at least.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Yeah, hold the phone, fellow conspiracy realists. This has turned
into a rare two parter Hold the Stones, Oh, hold
the Inca Stones. Romance those Stones, if you will.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
Hot take Romancing the Stone better than Indiana Jones?
Speaker 5 (40:49):
Yeah, well, just kidding. I just want to get yelled at.
It's not true.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
You can speak as it rides, I have a simple entity.
We cannot wait to hear from you folks. Again, this
is a very rare two partner for us. We are
diving into the story of the Eca Stones. We can't
wait for you to join us for part two. In
the meantime, we've got some homework for you. Tell us
(41:13):
your favorite strange, anachronistic artifacts, events, or other things from
the bulk of history past. We tried to be easy
to find online.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
That's try.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
You can find us the handle conspiracy Stuff, where we
exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where it
gets crazy on YouTube with video content galore for your enjoyment,
as well as on x FKA, Twitter and Hey, while
you're on the internet, why not bop on over to
Apple Podcasts and leave us a glowing five star review
you know you want to. You can also find us
at Instagram and TikTok at the handle conspiracy Stuff show.
Speaker 6 (41:50):
Climb up to the top of Machu Pichu and yell
out subscribe to stuff they don't want you to know.
If you actually do that and send a video to us,
I don't know what we're going to give you, it'll
be awesome.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Wellet you something exactly.
Speaker 6 (42:05):
If you want to call us with your mouth hole,
why not call one eight three three std WYTK. You
can say whatever you'd like for three minutes on our
voicemail system. Do give yourself a cool nickname and let
us know if we can use your name and message
on the air. If you got more to say than
could fit in that three minutes, why not instead send
us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
We are the entities that read every piece of email
correspondence we receive, be aware yet unafraid. Sometimes the void
writes back. You can send us anything you'd like, all
or welcome here. You could send us suggestions for a
future episode. That's one of our favorite things. You could
also take a page out of several people on Instagram's
(42:48):
book and send a non sequitor. You could give us
an ar game, like our pal dan A, who is
very into Wizard of Oz and way that I'm figuring
out as we Or you could just send us a
dinosaur joke like the following what did the dinosaur call
her blouse business? Try Sarah tops one more, one more?
(43:12):
I made up. I almost told you, guys, before we
ended this, I wanted to apologize for our previous Ectoplasm episode.
I was a little punchy. I almost texted you and
said sorry, guys. I was a fictional reptiles rump, by
which I mean I was dragging ass conspiracy at iHeartRadio
dot com.
Speaker 6 (43:50):
Stuff they don't want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite SYS
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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